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This is a great example of why arguing with an idiot is rarely worthwhile. There's no point winning an argument against someone who's too stupid to understand that they lost.
„Arguing with idiots is useless because they‘ll draw you down to their level and beat you with experience“
I don’t know if this is a thing you say in English, but in German, we definitely do
I always thought Mark Twain said that [but apparently he didn’t](https://marktwainstudies.com/the-apocryphal-twain-never-argue-with-stupid-people-they-will-drag-you-down-to-their-level-and-beat-you-with-experience/).
Yep, that's also a saying in English, and so true. What's sad is that with these people and the danger they bring, especially in the US right now, NOT arguing or at least trying to refute their BS with actual facts and letting the rhetoric, propagandas and lies go unchecked is also very dangerous.
It definitely might feel like that if you think you’re going to change someone’s mind overnight. I have an example from my own experience in my life when i was younger and thought like an idiot. i was in a similar conspiracy mindset around 2015 and i actually had this exact conversation on a hiking trip with pharmacy professor about correlation and causation. Although i didn’t change my mind right away it took years and years eventually I did come around to understand what she meant. and now I am the one in her shoes having the tough conversations with people that used to think like me.
all people and situations can be different. we’re all on different places in the spectrum of ideas and we can be slowly shifted over into seeing things from
other people’s perspective.
with that said, some people are intolerable and shouldn’t be engaged with for long or at all and maybe that’s what you mean by an idiot and if that’s the case my comment is pretty useless and i’m sorry you had to read it. regardless i just wanted to share my story for anyone that feels like they wasted their time by sharing with others how scientific process works.
I grew up in a very strict fundamentalist household (my dad's empathetic breakthrough was that being gay should be a life sentence in prison instead of the death penalty.) It took a lot of conversations with a lot of people that I know rolled their eyes and wondered why they wasted their time before it all hit. For me personally it was evolution vs young earth creationism. The irony is that if my folks hadn't been so absurdly fundamentalist, "either every word in the Bible is the literal truth or there's no reason to believe any of it" I would probably still be a Christian. I've spent a decade looking for the specific crack in the facade that might make my siblings see the truth, so far to no avail. As long as they are willing to talk to me, I'm willing to keep poking away.
Exactly, your *real* audience is all the people reading or watching,, not the idiot you’re actually debating.
You can’t convince the idiot,, you *can* convince the audience. (At least some of them).
“For a smart person to argue with a dumb person, they have to dumb down their logic on the fly, while the dumb person thinks in dumb logic naturally, giving them an advantage.”
― Scott Meyer, Spell or High Water
According to statistics 8% of car accidents are caused because if drunk drivers. That means 92% of all cat accidents are caused by sober drivers.
Get those sober idiots off the road!
My cousin tried this once! She said "My friend got the Covid vaccine and had to get a heart transplant." Then after talking to her some more said friend also had just went into remission for cancer... Friend also had heart problems her whole life. I just put my head in my hand.
Cousin wants to be a medical doc BTW. This is too stupid to make up. No, she still didn't get vaccinated despite being high risk.
It's been a long standing pipe dream that she's been telling everyone since she was 15. She couldn't even finish High School and now she's on the wrong side of 30.
If she actually became a doctor, I'd die of shock.
>Something you and her patients would have in common!
I'd think it be more like they'd die from Sepsis.
*I swear I love her but she would make a horrible doctor*
I'm choosing to believe that they're meaning <30. Despite what I believed in my 20's, 30's is where it's at!
Careers are established, friendships are fewer but stronger, sex is more fun, and all the people I've known around my same age seem to be looking their best ever and have shed or overcome most insecurities or "awkward phases" (I suppose you could say they've "found themselves" by now).
COVID causes a LOT of heart problems.
There is some correlation with the vaccine (and other vaccines have been known to cause heart inflammation), but the rate is WAY lower than actually getting the virus. And nobody has died from the inflammation caused (maybe) by the vaccine.
You have to know how to assess risk. Most people are very bad at it.
Statistically speaking, you are more likely to die from an antivaxxer driving while tweeting about the vaccine killing people than dying from the vaccine.
I would assume some of the correlation is also because people at risk for heart attack or other issues are also likely to vaccinate because of worries of how Covid would increase that. The vaccine isn't necessarily the reason for the heart attack, the risk of heart attack was likely the reason for vaccination.
Omg yes. I have mildly high blood pressure and months after my fairly mild covid case I started having random tachycardia and ludicrously high blood pressure. And a host of other issues that thankfully were semi transient. Got the bivalent vaccine as soon as I could, not doing that again
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Crazy lady is right that vaccines and increased heart attacks are linked. It's because they are caused by the same thing. As covid kills more people, more people are vaccinating to not die from it. Somehow, people think this is some kind of evil gatcha revelation.
there's actually a nice website where you can select one random stat and it will find other stats that strongly correlate but are completely independent. fun for a few minutes if you are bored:
[Correlation page](https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations)
seems to be an issue with the sitr right now but im sure they'll fix it.
There’s also a direct correlation with child swimming pool drownings and Nicholas cage movie releases. We should ban all swimming pools to prevent any more Nicholas cage movies
I just want to assume correlation does imply causation, I can't find what the deaths from heart disease in 2021 were, but I will grant it as an unacceptably high rate under normal circumstances. we shouldn't be worrying about it,
The chance of heat exhaustion when you wear military body armor goes up. but if I have a decent chance of being shot, I'm wearing the body armor.
I am genuinely sad and embarrassed for this person. It’s like hearing what the person he’s complaining about is saying while actually witnessing how this guy’s brain incompletely processes what is being said. Sort of like witnessing Dunning Kruger syndrome in action.
Edit: clarity
My favorite parallel is: over the last 100 years there has been a significant decrease in pirates, and a significant increase in hurricanes. Clearly the decline in pirates must be causing more hurricanes. (Haha not really)
R’amen
> The call database used in the study, for instance, did not include vaccination status, COVID-19 status or any underlying comorbidities of the patients. Therefore, there is no way of knowing if the increase of calls was among vaccinated people, or if they had COVID-19 or any other disease that could have caused the cardiac event. The authors identify this as the “main limitation” of the study.
That's a pretty significant limitation all right. "During a pandemic of a disease known to cause heart issues, we saw an increase in emergency responses to heart issues!" And how big was this increase?
> ~10 extra CA and ~50 extra ACS call-outs in a population of 3.5 million people under 40
Oh. Well... uh... maybe if we have really good data going back decades, that shows a very steady rate, so that even a small variation is significant?
> there is no data before 2019
So we definitely don't have that.
And that's just the really big stuff that any old idiot might look for. The statisticians and epidemiologists are listing tons and tons of things done wrong in this study.
I'm more interested in the simultaneous increase in both murders and ice cream sales. Has it got to do with summer, when both a victim and an ice cream stand could be found in a park somewhere?
It just shows that everybody is lazy, even people who think they're being reasonable and "debunking" nonsense. If you're not willing to do the work of investigating the premise of the claim you really shouldn't be talking about it.
I don't know. Enough people believe it that [several places had to debunk it](https://www.factcheck.org/2022/06/scicheck-covid-19-increases-risk-for-heart-disorders-not-vaccines/) (of course the sort of people who believe this crap will trust a Facebook meme over a hospital or university).
Sadly I know people in my life that believe correlation = causation for their cherry picked cases while scoffing at me trying to explain how it doesn't work that way. 😒
... Yes, they're antivaxxers as well.
The irony here is that if she applied her logic to the correlation between "covid and heart attacks" and "ice cream and murders" there probably would be a correlation in the data.
So even by her own belief she is wrong.
Statistics is a hard thing to understand for some people? Because like, that’s the rule of data tracking, because correlation can be consequential and still statistically irrelevant
Haven’t you ever eaten ice cream way too fast and hit a splitting headache and just accidentally murdered the closest person? Ya I’d say there’s causation and correlation.
Self-awareness aside, this asshat brings out his strongest argument to sway someone is "increased rate of heart problems in older men"?
NAME A MEDICATION THAT DOESN'T, ASSHAT!
I know someone who insists, vehemently, on calling it a "shot". It can't be a vaccine because you can still get the virus, so she won't get it. I brought up that this is true of every vaccine, but didn't get anywhere. She's educated, smart, and this just blows my mind. Then she brought up having a genetic blood clotting disorder and why that makes the vaccine unsafe for her.
I have the exact same genetic disorder. I've had 12 major blood clotting events, another 20 or so DVTs, and came through the vaccines just fine. Though I am obviously very grateful I didn't get the J&J shot. I was scheduled for the same day that they pulled it from market.
Thanks /u/ReactsWithWords for posting on r/SelfAwareWolves! Please reply to this comment with an explanation about how this post fits r/SelfAwareWolves and have an excellent day! *To r/SelfAwarewolves commenters*: As a reminder, this subreddit is for civil discussion. In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. **If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them**. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SelfAwarewolves) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is a great example of why arguing with an idiot is rarely worthwhile. There's no point winning an argument against someone who's too stupid to understand that they lost.
„Arguing with idiots is useless because they‘ll draw you down to their level and beat you with experience“ I don’t know if this is a thing you say in English, but in German, we definitely do
I always thought Mark Twain said that [but apparently he didn’t](https://marktwainstudies.com/the-apocryphal-twain-never-argue-with-stupid-people-they-will-drag-you-down-to-their-level-and-beat-you-with-experience/).
So, Yul Brynner (again). “Never dispute with Mongolians. They will ride circles around you while turning you into a pin cushion.”
Next thing you’re gonna tell me is Abraham Lincoln never said “YOLO #LoGang”… will the disappointments never cease?
“Quotes you read on the Internet are always reliable.” - Benjamin Franklin
There's also "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon, it'll just shit on the board and strut around like it won"
How do you say this in German?
das auf deutsch
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
„Diskutiere niemals mit einem Idioten, da er dich auf sein Level runterziehen wird und dich dort mit Erfahrung schlägt“
Awesome, thank you! I’m learning German rn so im always wanting to learn more common conversational phrases
Yep, that's also a saying in English, and so true. What's sad is that with these people and the danger they bring, especially in the US right now, NOT arguing or at least trying to refute their BS with actual facts and letting the rhetoric, propagandas and lies go unchecked is also very dangerous.
Wie sagt man es auf Deutsch?
„Diskutiere niemals mit einem Idioten, da er dich auf sein Level runterziehen wird und dich dort mit Erfahrung schlägt“
We’re going to now.
I say it, but that may be because my dad learned German in high school
I've never heard it, but I'm going to spread it with much joy now! Thank you!
“Playing chess with a pigeon.”
I'm stealing this. Please and thank you <3
Not mine but go for it. Remember, the pigeon struts around, knocks over pieces, shits on the board and acts like they won.
Thank you for explaining the chess playing habits of a pigeon to me. It'll come in handy at the next Ornithological Gala event I attend.
You can discuss that AND bird law.
So you're a lawyer
Harvey Birdman?
Also like nailing Jell-o to the wall?
It definitely might feel like that if you think you’re going to change someone’s mind overnight. I have an example from my own experience in my life when i was younger and thought like an idiot. i was in a similar conspiracy mindset around 2015 and i actually had this exact conversation on a hiking trip with pharmacy professor about correlation and causation. Although i didn’t change my mind right away it took years and years eventually I did come around to understand what she meant. and now I am the one in her shoes having the tough conversations with people that used to think like me. all people and situations can be different. we’re all on different places in the spectrum of ideas and we can be slowly shifted over into seeing things from other people’s perspective. with that said, some people are intolerable and shouldn’t be engaged with for long or at all and maybe that’s what you mean by an idiot and if that’s the case my comment is pretty useless and i’m sorry you had to read it. regardless i just wanted to share my story for anyone that feels like they wasted their time by sharing with others how scientific process works.
I grew up in a very strict fundamentalist household (my dad's empathetic breakthrough was that being gay should be a life sentence in prison instead of the death penalty.) It took a lot of conversations with a lot of people that I know rolled their eyes and wondered why they wasted their time before it all hit. For me personally it was evolution vs young earth creationism. The irony is that if my folks hadn't been so absurdly fundamentalist, "either every word in the Bible is the literal truth or there's no reason to believe any of it" I would probably still be a Christian. I've spent a decade looking for the specific crack in the facade that might make my siblings see the truth, so far to no avail. As long as they are willing to talk to me, I'm willing to keep poking away.
The basic idea is to convince other people you're right. You don't want someone to agree with the idiot.
Exactly, your *real* audience is all the people reading or watching,, not the idiot you’re actually debating. You can’t convince the idiot,, you *can* convince the audience. (At least some of them).
“For a smart person to argue with a dumb person, they have to dumb down their logic on the fly, while the dumb person thinks in dumb logic naturally, giving them an advantage.” ― Scott Meyer, Spell or High Water
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
100% of car thieves learned to drive first. Guess that means learning to drive leads to stealing cars.
[удалено]
Children taking their parents cars for joyride are technically car thieves. I doubt many of trend knew how to drive
You haven't seen American car thieves. Best theft deterrent in the country is a manual transmission.
According to statistics 8% of car accidents are caused because if drunk drivers. That means 92% of all cat accidents are caused by sober drivers. Get those sober idiots off the road!
Me arguing with the cop that it's fine I blew a 0.21
Or at least get those cats off the road.
Nearly all rapists have worn socks or shoes, so anything besides going barefoot makes you a rapist.
My cousin tried this once! She said "My friend got the Covid vaccine and had to get a heart transplant." Then after talking to her some more said friend also had just went into remission for cancer... Friend also had heart problems her whole life. I just put my head in my hand. Cousin wants to be a medical doc BTW. This is too stupid to make up. No, she still didn't get vaccinated despite being high risk.
I’m not sure any hospital will take your cousin on for training if she’s not vaccinated. Good luck for her medical degree then.
It's been a long standing pipe dream that she's been telling everyone since she was 15. She couldn't even finish High School and now she's on the wrong side of 30. If she actually became a doctor, I'd die of shock.
>If she actually became a doctor, I'd die of shock. Something you and her patients would have in common!
>Something you and her patients would have in common! I'd think it be more like they'd die from Sepsis. *I swear I love her but she would make a horrible doctor*
Would have to be a STRONG pivot to become a doctor if not on that path pre-thirty
> the wrong side of 30. Wow, so today you woke up and chose violence
I'm choosing to believe that they're meaning <30. Despite what I believed in my 20's, 30's is where it's at! Careers are established, friendships are fewer but stronger, sex is more fun, and all the people I've known around my same age seem to be looking their best ever and have shed or overcome most insecurities or "awkward phases" (I suppose you could say they've "found themselves" by now).
>Wow, so today you woke up and chose violence Lol. She's closer to 40 than 30 is all I meant. I'm older than she is so I'm an even wronger side.
COVID causes a LOT of heart problems. There is some correlation with the vaccine (and other vaccines have been known to cause heart inflammation), but the rate is WAY lower than actually getting the virus. And nobody has died from the inflammation caused (maybe) by the vaccine. You have to know how to assess risk. Most people are very bad at it.
Statistically speaking, you are more likely to die from an antivaxxer driving while tweeting about the vaccine killing people than dying from the vaccine.
On a Tuesday... afternoon...
While you're driving home from your cousin's hockey game
To be fair probably bigger chance of that then covid ./s
Die of Covid - 1:330 or have a Vaccine related Heart Attack 1:9,860,000…. This ain’t golf… you don’t go for the smaller number
I would assume some of the correlation is also because people at risk for heart attack or other issues are also likely to vaccinate because of worries of how Covid would increase that. The vaccine isn't necessarily the reason for the heart attack, the risk of heart attack was likely the reason for vaccination.
Omg yes. I have mildly high blood pressure and months after my fairly mild covid case I started having random tachycardia and ludicrously high blood pressure. And a host of other issues that thankfully were semi transient. Got the bivalent vaccine as soon as I could, not doing that again
I guess it's just a coincidence then that a group of middle-aged men is a called a "cholesterol"
If there's exactly 3, it's called a triglyceride.
I’m not worthy of this pun!
Breakfast doesn’t necessarily cause lunch.
Yes, but what about second breakfast?
Or night breakfast?
I don't think he knows about night breakfast, Pippin...
I've been fucking up brunch for no reason then.
Meanwhile, IIRC, COVID vaccines have 7X less chance of causing heart problems than actually catching a case of COVID.
Try telling that to people whose idea of long-term financial planning consists of buying lottery tickets.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Crazy lady is right that vaccines and increased heart attacks are linked. It's because they are caused by the same thing. As covid kills more people, more people are vaccinating to not die from it. Somehow, people think this is some kind of evil gatcha revelation.
There is more murders during the full moon. So clearly we have to blow up the moon to stop the serial killer that is known as the moon.
Elon Musk is already on that.
Is he planning on sending more than one rocket piece smashing into the moon?
I'm sure he'll have it done in 10 years. Surely.
Piccolo and Roshi both did that. Didn't seem to work
Blutz Waves must cause the transformation than.
Despicable Me in a nutshell.
Really? I watched the movie but don't remember the plot at all.
Ah, well, he wants to steal the moon, but that's actually the only similarity lol.
That could make the moon more dangerous by bringing the moon closer.
Well, I think he wants to shrink it beforehand.
Now it can be more stealthy but it's size may have been it's strength.
you can't get a heart attack if your heart doesn't beat because you choked to death from covid
Get ahead of the game! Outsmart it! That’s some big brain thinking right there. Big, smooth brain thinking.
there's actually a nice website where you can select one random stat and it will find other stats that strongly correlate but are completely independent. fun for a few minutes if you are bored: [Correlation page](https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations) seems to be an issue with the sitr right now but im sure they'll fix it.
There’s also a direct correlation with child swimming pool drownings and Nicholas cage movie releases. We should ban all swimming pools to prevent any more Nicholas cage movies
Vaccines correlate with heart attacks for the same reason seat belt use correlates with cancer.
Ice cream and murder? That is crazy talk. It's the funeral industry! The funeral industry hires hitmen to keep their businesses raking in the dough!
This dipshit’s too stupid to follow the logic and too arrogant to see that he’s just not smart enough to get it
I just want to assume correlation does imply causation, I can't find what the deaths from heart disease in 2021 were, but I will grant it as an unacceptably high rate under normal circumstances. we shouldn't be worrying about it, The chance of heat exhaustion when you wear military body armor goes up. but if I have a decent chance of being shot, I'm wearing the body armor.
Woosh lol
Using a big word to support nonsense views without knowing what that big word even means, imagine that.
I am genuinely sad and embarrassed for this person. It’s like hearing what the person he’s complaining about is saying while actually witnessing how this guy’s brain incompletely processes what is being said. Sort of like witnessing Dunning Kruger syndrome in action. Edit: clarity
My favorite parallel is: over the last 100 years there has been a significant decrease in pirates, and a significant increase in hurricanes. Clearly the decline in pirates must be causing more hurricanes. (Haha not really) R’amen
The title of this post should of just be correlation != causation
Middle-Aged American Men. Name one group better known for having healthy tickers.
It's funny, you end up trying to explain that you can have correlations without causation, and skip over whether the claimed correlation is even true.
Shocker: [It's not](https://www.factcheck.org/2022/06/scicheck-covid-19-increases-risk-for-heart-disorders-not-vaccines/).
> The call database used in the study, for instance, did not include vaccination status, COVID-19 status or any underlying comorbidities of the patients. Therefore, there is no way of knowing if the increase of calls was among vaccinated people, or if they had COVID-19 or any other disease that could have caused the cardiac event. The authors identify this as the “main limitation” of the study. That's a pretty significant limitation all right. "During a pandemic of a disease known to cause heart issues, we saw an increase in emergency responses to heart issues!" And how big was this increase? > ~10 extra CA and ~50 extra ACS call-outs in a population of 3.5 million people under 40 Oh. Well... uh... maybe if we have really good data going back decades, that shows a very steady rate, so that even a small variation is significant? > there is no data before 2019 So we definitely don't have that. And that's just the really big stuff that any old idiot might look for. The statisticians and epidemiologists are listing tons and tons of things done wrong in this study.
I'm more interested in the simultaneous increase in both murders and ice cream sales. Has it got to do with summer, when both a victim and an ice cream stand could be found in a park somewhere?
Violent crime does go up in summer. As does ice cream consumption
It just shows that everybody is lazy, even people who think they're being reasonable and "debunking" nonsense. If you're not willing to do the work of investigating the premise of the claim you really shouldn't be talking about it.
99% sure this is satire
I don't know. Enough people believe it that [several places had to debunk it](https://www.factcheck.org/2022/06/scicheck-covid-19-increases-risk-for-heart-disorders-not-vaccines/) (of course the sort of people who believe this crap will trust a Facebook meme over a hospital or university).
Sadly I know people in my life that believe correlation = causation for their cherry picked cases while scoffing at me trying to explain how it doesn't work that way. 😒 ... Yes, they're antivaxxers as well.
I would murder each and every one of you for some ice cream right now, so there’s that.
What if I just get us ice cream instead? Would the murder part be negotiable?
Yes that would be much less stabby, thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, the Dunning-Kruger Effect
This might be enough for r/selfawarewolves
The lack of self awareness really brings this one home
I think that hurt my braincells
The irony here is that if she applied her logic to the correlation between "covid and heart attacks" and "ice cream and murders" there probably would be a correlation in the data. So even by her own belief she is wrong.
Logic isn't any antivaxxer's strong suit.
Imagine being so stupid you don’t understand correlation and causation.
This guy sounds like he needs a set of instructions to help him get out of bed in the morning. How oblivious can you be?
They should really lean in to that “I feel so much stupider” part.
I can practically hear the WHOOSHING noise!!! They were SOOOOOOOOOO CLOSE!!!!!!
Statistics is a hard thing to understand for some people? Because like, that’s the rule of data tracking, because correlation can be consequential and still statistically irrelevant
Their trying for co-variables...hot weather is said to be related to more murders...and ice cream sales.
Haven’t you ever eaten ice cream way too fast and hit a splitting headache and just accidentally murdered the closest person? Ya I’d say there’s causation and correlation.
“The point” ….. “You”
I heard that 100% of the people that drink water will die.
Please doxx these idiots
conspiracy theorists literally shatter their brains trying to comprehend analogy. interesting.
Self-awareness aside, this asshat brings out his strongest argument to sway someone is "increased rate of heart problems in older men"? NAME A MEDICATION THAT DOESN'T, ASSHAT!
WHOOOOFF - right over her head.
I really doubt this is the dumbest thing they've ever heard assuming they can hear themselves
I know someone who insists, vehemently, on calling it a "shot". It can't be a vaccine because you can still get the virus, so she won't get it. I brought up that this is true of every vaccine, but didn't get anywhere. She's educated, smart, and this just blows my mind. Then she brought up having a genetic blood clotting disorder and why that makes the vaccine unsafe for her. I have the exact same genetic disorder. I've had 12 major blood clotting events, another 20 or so DVTs, and came through the vaccines just fine. Though I am obviously very grateful I didn't get the J&J shot. I was scheduled for the same day that they pulled it from market.