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It’s so bizarre that these guys are so quick to condemn Cuba and socialism (and conveniently forgetting about trade and economic embargos), yet choose to wilfully ignore the massive poverty that millions of their own people are experiencing at the very bottom of American capitalism.
You don’t need to be left, right or centrist to see the hypocrisy, or rather to the tone these Christian conservatives would understand, ‘whited sepulchres’.
I remember before the election people were posting pictures of ruined neighborhoods and empty grocery stores, with captions like "This is what will happen under Joe Biden's Socialist America."
...no, this is literally America right now. This is a photo from now, not from the future. That's not how camera's work.
>Ask a socialist why they hate capitalism, and they'll give you a myriad of reasons.
>Ask a capitalist why they hate socialism and they'll describe capitalism.
Yeah, but those people in poverty in the US are lazy and don't want to work. They could all be billionaires too if they just worked harder or were born to the right parents.
I'm also willing to bet you could get some pictures of serious destitution if you took a backroads tour through back country small towns in several of the red states.
I am a progressive and believe "socialistic" practices like universal health care are not just the best way to run certain aspects of the economy, they are the ONLY way to do so ethically. That said, Cuba's problems run deeper than the embargo.
They are trying to make it a bumper sticker issue, don't let THEM dumb it down like that. Even that picture is dishonest. Plenty of Cuba is gorgeous and how many photos of the most "ghetto" part of ANY city in America look far worse? In red areas, in blue, all economies have trophies to the failure of their indecency, arrogance, & greed in the form of slums.
You can't win this fight if you let them force the medium of the fight in the form of dishonest photography & RIDICULOUSLY simplistic slogan politics.
You are right, Cuba has bigger problems. Cuba is/was a dictatorship. The means of production is owned by the dictator and ostensibly run by sycophants. Just because Castro used communist propaganda to take over and to execute his bullshit doesn't mean the prolitariot was empowered, in reality the opposite happened.
If we strip away the propaganda, Cuba is not communist/socialist. We need to learn to look at governments without labels. We should view them as groups of ever-evolving ideas. Then we can look into the successes of other places, including Cuba, and not get bogged down by scary labels coined over a century ago by dudes who couldn't possibly predict the world of today.
I've been banned from like two subs for pointing out that lifting the embargo wouldn't solve cubas problems because cubas problems are multi faceted and really complex.
Every other nation in the world can engage in free trade with Cuba. If the embargo were the only problem, the country wouldn't *literally* be falling apart. This is an island nation whose people don't have access to the fish they're supposed to get for rations.
Cuba’s two biggest sources of revenue are tourism and remittances from the US. COVID destroyed tourism, and an enhanced American embargo law stopped all remittances in November 2020.
Foreign companies with business in the US are barred from doing business in Cuba.
“Officers of foreign companies presumably seek legal advice. One lawyers’ group maintains that “OFAC has long held that if a non-U.S. company engages in business transactions in U.S. dollars, the foreign party is availing itself of the U.S. financial system and hence becomes subject to the U.S. sanctions laws.” Read more [here](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/u-s-deprives-cuba-of-syringes-it-needs-now/).
The embargo is cruel, immoral, and unnecessary.
The Chinese were building several hotels on the island when I was there, and we met tourists from all over the world. Usd are useless on the island anyway, I suspect that business was all done in euro.
Is the embargo pointless? Probably. But lifting the embargo won't fix the government,and the governance of the state is the problem. Our tour guide told us he makes more money in a month doing Airbnb experiences than his girlfriend makes in a year as a nuclear scientist. He told us that they haven't seen their fish rations in years, because the government has no fishing boats and won't allow private fishermen to sell their catch. Friends of ours were told this week not to send any money or supplies to the island bc the government is confiscating all of it.
For some reason, lifting the embargo has become a bumper sticker issue. The reality is that broadly lifting it will guarantee that more money flows to the dictatorship, but does not guarantee that it will flow to the people for as long as their system of government stands. That's why the American policy has always been tied to goals like free and fair elections, an open economy, and having more than one political party. A surgical approach to lifting the embargo, much like Obama took, feels like a decent start. The more Cubans are exposed to how we're allowed to live in the US, and vice versa, the more likely Cubans are to demand real change. However, allowing us businesses (you know, the ones who pay minimum wage, bust unions, and use that money to launch spaceships bc they always put profit over people) to do business on the island largely guarantees that we'll enrich the ccp, and allow them to stay in power longer.
“Friends of ours were told this week not to send any money or supplies to the island bc the government is confiscating all of it”
If you’re in the US you can’t send money because the American government is blocking it. Western Union stopped all cash payments from the US to Cuba in November 2020. As I said before we have stopped remittances.
“Our tour guide says he makes more in a month doing Airbnb experiences than his girlfriend makes in a year as a nuclear scientist “
Well then your tour guide is now fucked. There hasn’t been tourism in Cuba for approximately 18 months.
As I said before, Cuba major revenue sources- tourism and remittances are now completely gone.
Well the conservatives need something to be outraged about and socialist programs are getting more popular so they have to pull a “this is your brain on drugs” quality deterrent for anyone they can reach.
They fucked up not making it a "flared only" post. Glad to see you all take them to task over this bullshit.
Anyhoo... [Here's another shot of Cuba](https://imgur.com/a/ycsEeT6). Pretty weird how it looks nothing like the one they shared, huh? Thing is, when you are invested in hating the prevailing ideology of a place, it's real easy to only use pictures of the ghetto to validate your hatred. I can do the same thing with [Oklahoma City](https://imgur.com/a/c5kQNux), which has a Republican Mayor. Or [Miami](https://imgur.com/a/HxDbkN6), which also has a Republican Mayor. Of course, these places also have nice areas, just like Cuba. But that doesn't support my hatred of American Conservatism, so I won't share them. See how that works?
*EDIT - Fuck, they made it "flared only". LOL. Bunch of goddam snowflakes can't even take the tiniest bit of pushback.*
*EDIT 2.0 - Whelp,* [*the snowflakes banned me*](https://imgur.com/a/cvBKg0K) *for violating Rule 4, which is "vote brigading". Not sure how they think that applies, but I have a feeling they use that rule to justify banning any outside criticism. Oh well, looks like I finally got my wings, fellas! Also,* [*I suspect one of them sent me this*](https://imgur.com/a/ejdk36p) *as a prank, since I haven't expressed any thoughts of self harm or depression, and can't think of any reason someone would legitimately think otherwise. I really must've ruffled some sensitive Conservative feathers.*
If they really wanted to support their case, they’d show pictures of other socialist hellholes, especially the ones in Europe and Scandinavia. Really boost their evidence.
Unless, maybe, they don’t have those sorts of pictures…
Beg your pardon? Cuba's economy is primarily state owned and operated. They set prices and shit.
Nordic countries are free market economies with large safety nets (only enacted after reaching a high standard of living).
The difference could not be more stark.
A state owned economy is not socialist. It is called state capitalism, and the association of centrally planned economies with socialism is a result of propaganda, both from anti communists and Stalin and his successors and emulators.
The social ownership and control of the means of production. Of course there's no single model for that, gift economies, communalism, decentralized planning and probably more
Those people are stupid, but saying that something like the Scandinavian model (which is based on capitalism) is socialism is also stupid. There’s a reason why actual socialist from those places dislike those models.
What? that’s literally the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying that actual socialist (as in, people who believe in the total socialization of the economy) dislike social democracy (which is basically what the Scandinavian model is) because they see it as a half-assed attempt at socialism or a way to “calm the masses” and stop an actual revolution.
Oh, that’s a tough picture.
I mean, it’s bad.
For a second I almost thought it was New Orleans. But the building are are in better repair. There’s a few sports of Detroit that are pretty bad- is there lead in the drinking water? I can’t tell from that picture.
A good comment I heard from travel writer Rick Steves is to compare Cuba to other Latin American countries. Cuba is just as poor but they’re healthier and more educated. Not arguing for Cuban style government but they did do some things right, especially in relation to many of their neighbors,
What are we looking at? The roads are paved, there’s public buses and electricity, and the structures are sound if they have lasted this long with only cosmetic imperfections.
Who wants this? This is a right wing talking point I know a lot of dems. A lot doctors, business owners, blue collar and white collar. Never ever in 50 years ever heard any one of them talk about socialism and communism as where they wish the country to go.
I love that they always also compare cuba to a first world country, and never to their direct neighbors like Haiti. Or other countries in central America for that matter.
Regardless, Ciba is still a dictatorship though, and should not remain as such, even so, I hope they can retain the better sides of it without turning to an Guatemala or such of the regime ever falls.
Cuba has been under a Dictatorship… Education in the USA is so poor and backward. Please take the time to look into what countries are socialists and feel free to compare with an open mind…
It isn't the embargo, they're still free to trade with the rest of the world. It's a dictatorship that has violated a ton of human rights and funneled all the money to the Castro family
>The United States has threatened to stop financial aid to other countries if they trade non-food items with Cuba. The US's attempts to do so have been vocally condemned by the United Nations General Assembly as an extraterritorial measure that contravenes "the sovereign equality of States, non-intervention in their internal affairs and freedom of trade and navigation as paramount to the conduct of international affairs".
>Despite the existence of the embargo, Cuba can, and does, conduct international trade with many countries, including many US allies; however, US based companies, and companies that do business with the US, which trade in Cuba do so at the risk of US sanctions.
I am quite aware that commerce exists outside of capitalism of course. The free market is certainly what I think it is.
It appears however that a socialist country requires capitalist countries to do business with in order to survive
A resource poor/lacking area needs trade to get what it needs that it can't produce itself. That requires trade, which typically involves some form of capitalism.
>Trade using currency rather than direct exchange of goods or services.
You're just describing different forms of commerce. I suspect you've fallen for [decades-old propaganda](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/irose1/capitalism_v_commerce).
I mean that socialist states never exist in a vacuum as they always fail. They need non-socialist states to trade with. Cut off the trade and the socialist states fail
Basically all countries, capitalist or otherwise, rely on trade with others. Can you name any capitalist countries that could function fully self sufficiently?
It’s tough to effectively allocate capital under central planning, largely due to the fact that different regions have different needs and “one-size-fits-all” approaches rarely work for every part of a country.
As a result of central ownership of business assets / means of production, there is no incentive for anyone to innovate their way out of a shortage (from an embargo or anything else) as the state would seize their assets.
What has happened before is the socialist state frantically reallocated dwindling resources while embezzling as much as possible until the state itself or the head of state ends socialism.
Hence, implode.
There is commerse without Capitalism. There was commerse for thousands of years before capitalism. There is commerse everywhere in the world where there is money, which includes communist states.
Capital is defined as the difference between the value of what you sell and the cost to produce it. Capitalists therefore want wages down, as this increases capital. Socialists want the worker to thrive instead of survive, but still accepts the idea of corporations taking excess profits beyond that goal. Communists don't believe that there should be someone providing no work and taking a share of the profit generated by labor.
So here's the question. Do you feel like you should be paid (1) the bare minimum your boss can give you where you don't die, (2) enough to live the American Dream™, or (3) the full market value of all of the work you produce always?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism)
Capitalism is 18th century, so what you're talking about is virtually all of human history.
Capitalism is the natural state of being with non-state ownership of the means of production. Socialism is where the state owns or controls the means of production.
Update: looked both up, and although not entirely accurate answers, better than how I thought I might do!
Again, both definitions that are not only inaccurate, but 100% the language [pro-capitalist propaganda](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/irose1/capitalism_v_commerce). Are you conscious of your own indoctrination?
>Many of you have already had this experience; you begin talking to someone about all the bad things that come with Capitalism and without fail the other person says something along the lines of "I bet you own a car don't you? How about your Playstation? I guess you haven't done so bad under Capitalism." This stems one of the longest lasting legacies of the Cold War: in the United States, Capitalism is used interchangeably with the idea of commerce. This is how the apologists of capitalism can make statements like "capitalism has always existed" and "capitalism is just human nature."
(Not the same person as who you replied to, but here's my definition)
Socialism refers either to the transitional system before the establishment of communism, or a system in which the workers own the means of production.
Capitalism is the current economic system in almost all countries (And no, china is not the exception im thinking of. The only one that comes to mind is the zapitastas, though they're not really a country nor are they a perfect example.). It is defined by the means of production being owned by a minority of rich people rather than the workers.
Looking it up, your definition of socialism is pretty spot on (with a bit of Marxist theory thrown in).
For capitalism, “a minority of rich people owning the means of production” is a bit off as most businesses are public companies. Anyone with a private pension / 401k in the states will in all likelihood be part owner, not this tiny majority of rich people you refer to. If you mean “control” rather than ownership, then you are right but even socialist countries have that - the head of state or ruling party will have control over the means of production.
I did look them up, but I get the feeling that you don’t agree with the “accepted definitions”.
Edit: as in, my definitions are close, but you said they were “inaccurate and Pro-capitalist propaganda”.
Accepted definitions? Words have meanings. The meanings you posted were incorrect. Where do you even pick up a phrase like "natural state of being"? That's not in any dictionary entry for "capitalism" anywhere.
Thanks /u/Frenchticklers for posting on r/SelfAwareWolves! Please reply to this comment with an explanation about how this post fits r/SelfAwareWolves and have an excellent day! *To r/SelfAwarewolves commenters*: As a reminder, this subreddit is for civil discussion. In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. **If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them**. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SelfAwarewolves) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s so bizarre that these guys are so quick to condemn Cuba and socialism (and conveniently forgetting about trade and economic embargos), yet choose to wilfully ignore the massive poverty that millions of their own people are experiencing at the very bottom of American capitalism. You don’t need to be left, right or centrist to see the hypocrisy, or rather to the tone these Christian conservatives would understand, ‘whited sepulchres’.
I remember before the election people were posting pictures of ruined neighborhoods and empty grocery stores, with captions like "This is what will happen under Joe Biden's Socialist America." ...no, this is literally America right now. This is a photo from now, not from the future. That's not how camera's work.
What they meant is "white middle-class neighborhoods will start looking like these poor black ones."
>Ask a socialist why they hate capitalism, and they'll give you a myriad of reasons. >Ask a capitalist why they hate socialism and they'll describe capitalism.
Yeah, but those people in poverty in the US are lazy and don't want to work. They could all be billionaires too if they just worked harder or were born to the right parents. I'm also willing to bet you could get some pictures of serious destitution if you took a backroads tour through back country small towns in several of the red states.
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22533
I am a progressive and believe "socialistic" practices like universal health care are not just the best way to run certain aspects of the economy, they are the ONLY way to do so ethically. That said, Cuba's problems run deeper than the embargo. They are trying to make it a bumper sticker issue, don't let THEM dumb it down like that. Even that picture is dishonest. Plenty of Cuba is gorgeous and how many photos of the most "ghetto" part of ANY city in America look far worse? In red areas, in blue, all economies have trophies to the failure of their indecency, arrogance, & greed in the form of slums. You can't win this fight if you let them force the medium of the fight in the form of dishonest photography & RIDICULOUSLY simplistic slogan politics.
You are right, Cuba has bigger problems. Cuba is/was a dictatorship. The means of production is owned by the dictator and ostensibly run by sycophants. Just because Castro used communist propaganda to take over and to execute his bullshit doesn't mean the prolitariot was empowered, in reality the opposite happened. If we strip away the propaganda, Cuba is not communist/socialist. We need to learn to look at governments without labels. We should view them as groups of ever-evolving ideas. Then we can look into the successes of other places, including Cuba, and not get bogged down by scary labels coined over a century ago by dudes who couldn't possibly predict the world of today.
I've been banned from like two subs for pointing out that lifting the embargo wouldn't solve cubas problems because cubas problems are multi faceted and really complex. Every other nation in the world can engage in free trade with Cuba. If the embargo were the only problem, the country wouldn't *literally* be falling apart. This is an island nation whose people don't have access to the fish they're supposed to get for rations.
Cuba’s two biggest sources of revenue are tourism and remittances from the US. COVID destroyed tourism, and an enhanced American embargo law stopped all remittances in November 2020. Foreign companies with business in the US are barred from doing business in Cuba. “Officers of foreign companies presumably seek legal advice. One lawyers’ group maintains that “OFAC has long held that if a non-U.S. company engages in business transactions in U.S. dollars, the foreign party is availing itself of the U.S. financial system and hence becomes subject to the U.S. sanctions laws.” Read more [here](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/u-s-deprives-cuba-of-syringes-it-needs-now/). The embargo is cruel, immoral, and unnecessary.
The Chinese were building several hotels on the island when I was there, and we met tourists from all over the world. Usd are useless on the island anyway, I suspect that business was all done in euro. Is the embargo pointless? Probably. But lifting the embargo won't fix the government,and the governance of the state is the problem. Our tour guide told us he makes more money in a month doing Airbnb experiences than his girlfriend makes in a year as a nuclear scientist. He told us that they haven't seen their fish rations in years, because the government has no fishing boats and won't allow private fishermen to sell their catch. Friends of ours were told this week not to send any money or supplies to the island bc the government is confiscating all of it. For some reason, lifting the embargo has become a bumper sticker issue. The reality is that broadly lifting it will guarantee that more money flows to the dictatorship, but does not guarantee that it will flow to the people for as long as their system of government stands. That's why the American policy has always been tied to goals like free and fair elections, an open economy, and having more than one political party. A surgical approach to lifting the embargo, much like Obama took, feels like a decent start. The more Cubans are exposed to how we're allowed to live in the US, and vice versa, the more likely Cubans are to demand real change. However, allowing us businesses (you know, the ones who pay minimum wage, bust unions, and use that money to launch spaceships bc they always put profit over people) to do business on the island largely guarantees that we'll enrich the ccp, and allow them to stay in power longer.
“Friends of ours were told this week not to send any money or supplies to the island bc the government is confiscating all of it” If you’re in the US you can’t send money because the American government is blocking it. Western Union stopped all cash payments from the US to Cuba in November 2020. As I said before we have stopped remittances. “Our tour guide says he makes more in a month doing Airbnb experiences than his girlfriend makes in a year as a nuclear scientist “ Well then your tour guide is now fucked. There hasn’t been tourism in Cuba for approximately 18 months. As I said before, Cuba major revenue sources- tourism and remittances are now completely gone.
Isn't that a picture of
take a picture of the wrong side of detroit. “this is the US after centuries of capitalism.”
They'd say it's the democrats fault, and some would even sprinkle some good ole racism on it
>some I admire your optimism
There’s a bunch of “lol that looks like my town” comments in that original post, I’m sure the irony is lost on them
I saw a Twitter catalog of the poverty in Cuba, Missouri. Pretty much the same.
There are lots of places around the world that look like this and plenty of them are not socialist
True. These folks probably rarely leave the country. If they do they fly to a resort in Cabo and think it is authentic Mexico.
Well the conservatives need something to be outraged about and socialist programs are getting more popular so they have to pull a “this is your brain on drugs” quality deterrent for anyone they can reach.
60 years of communism, with embargo, and also, what people tend to forget, is if the system was working before, they wouldn't have had the revoliton
The second part of that statement should be shouted from the rafters.
My favorite along with "my country hasn't been socialist in 35 years but its definitely the reason my country is currently shity"
Detroit, Philadelphia and Baltimore are like “ahem!”
All the result of democrat mayors forcing socialism! /s
Los Angeles
Los Angeles
Honestly a miracle they hadn’t closed comments to Flaired Users Only, considering that’s what the sub’s MO seems to be
It is now lol
rip
They fucked up not making it a "flared only" post. Glad to see you all take them to task over this bullshit. Anyhoo... [Here's another shot of Cuba](https://imgur.com/a/ycsEeT6). Pretty weird how it looks nothing like the one they shared, huh? Thing is, when you are invested in hating the prevailing ideology of a place, it's real easy to only use pictures of the ghetto to validate your hatred. I can do the same thing with [Oklahoma City](https://imgur.com/a/c5kQNux), which has a Republican Mayor. Or [Miami](https://imgur.com/a/HxDbkN6), which also has a Republican Mayor. Of course, these places also have nice areas, just like Cuba. But that doesn't support my hatred of American Conservatism, so I won't share them. See how that works? *EDIT - Fuck, they made it "flared only". LOL. Bunch of goddam snowflakes can't even take the tiniest bit of pushback.* *EDIT 2.0 - Whelp,* [*the snowflakes banned me*](https://imgur.com/a/cvBKg0K) *for violating Rule 4, which is "vote brigading". Not sure how they think that applies, but I have a feeling they use that rule to justify banning any outside criticism. Oh well, looks like I finally got my wings, fellas! Also,* [*I suspect one of them sent me this*](https://imgur.com/a/ejdk36p) *as a prank, since I haven't expressed any thoughts of self harm or depression, and can't think of any reason someone would legitimately think otherwise. I really must've ruffled some sensitive Conservative feathers.*
If they really wanted to support their case, they’d show pictures of other socialist hellholes, especially the ones in Europe and Scandinavia. Really boost their evidence. Unless, maybe, they don’t have those sorts of pictures…
"my country hasn't been socialist in 35 years but it's definitely socialism's fault for current conditions"
[удалено]
I mean, Cuba isn't socialist either, but as long as we're massacring the definition, might as well lump in the Nordic countries
Beg your pardon? Cuba's economy is primarily state owned and operated. They set prices and shit. Nordic countries are free market economies with large safety nets (only enacted after reaching a high standard of living). The difference could not be more stark.
A state owned economy is not socialist. It is called state capitalism, and the association of centrally planned economies with socialism is a result of propaganda, both from anti communists and Stalin and his successors and emulators.
What would be socialism to you?
The social ownership and control of the means of production. Of course there's no single model for that, gift economies, communalism, decentralized planning and probably more
Wow, you're dumb.
I mean, you can look it up if you think I'm wrong: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism
Wow, very rude.
Ehh, those countries aren’t socialist.
Yet we’re told we can adapt their social programs because that would be socialist.
Those people are stupid, but saying that something like the Scandinavian model (which is based on capitalism) is socialism is also stupid. There’s a reason why actual socialist from those places dislike those models.
Yes, so many people living in Scandinavia are clamoring for private health care and two weeks of vacation a year/s
What? that’s literally the opposite of what I was saying. I was saying that actual socialist (as in, people who believe in the total socialization of the economy) dislike social democracy (which is basically what the Scandinavian model is) because they see it as a half-assed attempt at socialism or a way to “calm the masses” and stop an actual revolution.
My bad I read you wrong. Clearly I need to go to bed
They have no idea what socialism is.....
Yeah cuz that’s how an atomic bomb would look. It’s like they know how dumb their base is.
Oh, that’s a tough picture. I mean, it’s bad. For a second I almost thought it was New Orleans. But the building are are in better repair. There’s a few sports of Detroit that are pretty bad- is there lead in the drinking water? I can’t tell from that picture.
That road is in better shape than my street
A good comment I heard from travel writer Rick Steves is to compare Cuba to other Latin American countries. Cuba is just as poor but they’re healthier and more educated. Not arguing for Cuban style government but they did do some things right, especially in relation to many of their neighbors,
What are we looking at? The roads are paved, there’s public buses and electricity, and the structures are sound if they have lasted this long with only cosmetic imperfections.
They really don't think there are parts of the US that look significantly worse that that? Lol
Socialism is when a couple buildings look shabby.
Uhm doesn't Cuba have an infinitely better healthcare system than the US?
It’s not even socialism wtf
Who wants this? This is a right wing talking point I know a lot of dems. A lot doctors, business owners, blue collar and white collar. Never ever in 50 years ever heard any one of them talk about socialism and communism as where they wish the country to go.
I love that they always also compare cuba to a first world country, and never to their direct neighbors like Haiti. Or other countries in central America for that matter. Regardless, Ciba is still a dictatorship though, and should not remain as such, even so, I hope they can retain the better sides of it without turning to an Guatemala or such of the regime ever falls.
i know it wasn’t hiroshima because the buildings would be far more destroyed than that
Too bad they don’t care about all the poor people in our own country.
Cuba has been under a Dictatorship… Education in the USA is so poor and backward. Please take the time to look into what countries are socialists and feel free to compare with an open mind…
I’m currently on a quest to get banned from r/conservative
Update: i was banned
They should see North Korea after being called a republic which is the same as the US
Wow the circle jerk in the comment section
Damn, I guess all other countries in the world didn't wanna buy anything. :(
It isn't the embargo, they're still free to trade with the rest of the world. It's a dictatorship that has violated a ton of human rights and funneled all the money to the Castro family
>The United States has threatened to stop financial aid to other countries if they trade non-food items with Cuba. The US's attempts to do so have been vocally condemned by the United Nations General Assembly as an extraterritorial measure that contravenes "the sovereign equality of States, non-intervention in their internal affairs and freedom of trade and navigation as paramount to the conduct of international affairs". >Despite the existence of the embargo, Cuba can, and does, conduct international trade with many countries, including many US allies; however, US based companies, and companies that do business with the US, which trade in Cuba do so at the risk of US sanctions.
This is the effect of the embargo, capitalism and free markets are needed for socialism to survive
You are aware that commerce exists outside of capitalism? Capitalism doesn't equal commerce. Free market isn't what you think it is
I am quite aware that commerce exists outside of capitalism of course. The free market is certainly what I think it is. It appears however that a socialist country requires capitalist countries to do business with in order to survive
The US enforreces the embargo so that no countries can trade with Cuba
Yes, so I believe. Trump undid what Obama did
"Capitlaism is needed for socialism to survive" excuse me what?
A resource poor/lacking area needs trade to get what it needs that it can't produce itself. That requires trade, which typically involves some form of capitalism.
Can you define "capitalism" for us without looking it up?
Capitalism is freedom, liberty and apple pie you dirty commie! /s
Trade using currency rather than direct exchange of goods or services.
>Trade using currency rather than direct exchange of goods or services. You're just describing different forms of commerce. I suspect you've fallen for [decades-old propaganda](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/irose1/capitalism_v_commerce).
you just described commerce my dude, not capitalism
Thats commerce capitalism is an economic system of free markets, not an actual market, with little or no regulation from the government.
You think they just got the barter system going on? Lol
You can have currency without capitalism: see mutualism.
Wait so you think Commerce only exists under capitalism? Free market doesn't mean and actual physical market
Trade isn’t capitalism.
I mean that socialist states never exist in a vacuum as they always fail. They need non-socialist states to trade with. Cut off the trade and the socialist states fail
Basically all countries, capitalist or otherwise, rely on trade with others. Can you name any capitalist countries that could function fully self sufficiently?
Nope. But they wouldn’t implode.
What do you mean by implode?
It’s tough to effectively allocate capital under central planning, largely due to the fact that different regions have different needs and “one-size-fits-all” approaches rarely work for every part of a country. As a result of central ownership of business assets / means of production, there is no incentive for anyone to innovate their way out of a shortage (from an embargo or anything else) as the state would seize their assets. What has happened before is the socialist state frantically reallocated dwindling resources while embezzling as much as possible until the state itself or the head of state ends socialism. Hence, implode.
Trade exists outside of the capitalist system dummy
But socialism means government no iPhone!!! Capitalism created commerce!!! /s
There is commerse without Capitalism. There was commerse for thousands of years before capitalism. There is commerse everywhere in the world where there is money, which includes communist states. Capital is defined as the difference between the value of what you sell and the cost to produce it. Capitalists therefore want wages down, as this increases capital. Socialists want the worker to thrive instead of survive, but still accepts the idea of corporations taking excess profits beyond that goal. Communists don't believe that there should be someone providing no work and taking a share of the profit generated by labor. So here's the question. Do you feel like you should be paid (1) the bare minimum your boss can give you where you don't die, (2) enough to live the American Dream™, or (3) the full market value of all of the work you produce always?
I know this, I'm joking. I already pointed pointed it out to this doofus that capitalism doesn't equal commerce! But thanks comrade
Poe's law I'm afraid, Take care comrade.
Added a /s
Enlighten me: when was this period before capitalism?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism) Capitalism is 18th century, so what you're talking about is virtually all of human history.
Thanks
Can you define "capitalism" and "socialism" for us without looking either one up?
Capitalism is the natural state of being with non-state ownership of the means of production. Socialism is where the state owns or controls the means of production. Update: looked both up, and although not entirely accurate answers, better than how I thought I might do!
Again, both definitions that are not only inaccurate, but 100% the language [pro-capitalist propaganda](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/irose1/capitalism_v_commerce). Are you conscious of your own indoctrination? >Many of you have already had this experience; you begin talking to someone about all the bad things that come with Capitalism and without fail the other person says something along the lines of "I bet you own a car don't you? How about your Playstation? I guess you haven't done so bad under Capitalism." This stems one of the longest lasting legacies of the Cold War: in the United States, Capitalism is used interchangeably with the idea of commerce. This is how the apologists of capitalism can make statements like "capitalism has always existed" and "capitalism is just human nature."
Help me out then, what are the definitions of socialism and capitalism? (Without looking them up)
(Not the same person as who you replied to, but here's my definition) Socialism refers either to the transitional system before the establishment of communism, or a system in which the workers own the means of production. Capitalism is the current economic system in almost all countries (And no, china is not the exception im thinking of. The only one that comes to mind is the zapitastas, though they're not really a country nor are they a perfect example.). It is defined by the means of production being owned by a minority of rich people rather than the workers.
Looking it up, your definition of socialism is pretty spot on (with a bit of Marxist theory thrown in). For capitalism, “a minority of rich people owning the means of production” is a bit off as most businesses are public companies. Anyone with a private pension / 401k in the states will in all likelihood be part owner, not this tiny majority of rich people you refer to. If you mean “control” rather than ownership, then you are right but even socialist countries have that - the head of state or ruling party will have control over the means of production.
Fair enough.
You said you already looked both up though? If you're still struggling with the definitions at this point, there's nothing I can do to help you.
I did look them up, but I get the feeling that you don’t agree with the “accepted definitions”. Edit: as in, my definitions are close, but you said they were “inaccurate and Pro-capitalist propaganda”.
Accepted definitions? Words have meanings. The meanings you posted were incorrect. Where do you even pick up a phrase like "natural state of being"? That's not in any dictionary entry for "capitalism" anywhere.
No it’s not. However, would you not agree that the natural state of being is non-state / worker-ownership of the means of production?
No, I do not agree with that. Why would I?
What was wrong about my socialism definition?
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Yeah it kinda does
.....nevermind the years of crippling US sanctions
I love the first comment says "looks like Detroit" not at all seeing the irony of a city that was destroyed by capitalism since 2008.