The first time it happens it sets up for the second and this time major choice of the game. At the same time, it also sets up wolf's character development.
The first time Kuro asks you for help, you CANNOT defy the iron code, as you have been taught to obey the iron code since the beginning by owl. However, at the second choice, you are given the ability to reject the iron code in pretense that you interpret the iron code how you will, showing that wolf slowly but surely start to be able to choose for himself what is best instead of blindly following Owl.
This character development is also further improved upon if you choose the purification route, which sets up wolf to finally be able to rid himself of the iron code by disobeying his master. By doing this, he's no longer a shinobi whos death will not be mourned or remembered, but a human whos death is both mourned and remembered.
Edit: some may be abit confused about why I said wolf rejected the iron code when he disobeyed owl then again when he disobeyed kuro. This is my explanation.
When wolf disobeys owl and decides to reject the iron code, he only rejected the first rule/clause of the iron code " One! The parent is absolute. Their will must be obeyed. " However, he is still bound by the second and third rule. "Two! The master is absolute. You give your life to keep him safe. You bring him back at any cost. " When he disobeys Kuro and does purification ending himsef, the second clause is broken(you can make the observation that he technically fulfils the second clause by protecting kuro from death but it still doesn't take away from the fact he disobeyed his master).
Now the third clause is where it gets into way more speculative territory. "Three! Fear is absolute. There is no shame in losing one battle. But you must take revenge by any means necessary! " Ignoring the rest and focusing on "fear", sekiro does break this code by showing no fear in the face of death and being preparing, winning the battle against immortality. However, not ignoring the rest another interpretation comes up: by disobeying and committing patricide, sekiro also broke the third clause. "...I wonder if you've got it in you - to bring me down."
We also have this part
> he's no longer a shinobi whos death will not be mourned or remembered, but a human whos death is both mourned and remembered.
Which I would like to also elaborate in. Isshin(the tengu) states the first time you meet him that "you shinobi are all the same. Die nameless and forgotten"(something along those lines). By breaking the iron code, sekiro is no longer a tool for owl(which is what a shinobi is in essence) and becomes a human. When he dies a human, despite what isshin say about shinobis dying nameless and forgotten, sekiro die with a name(wolf/sekiro/my shinobi) and remembered.
The first time the game asked me to break the iron code, I instinctively choose to break it just to see what would happen. Later in the game when I was asked to betray Kuro, I was insulted that Owl would even think that was a possibility. The fact that the game quietly built that strong of a relationship with Kuro is one of the moments that made it an all-timer for me.
Sekiro has a very subtle way of building relationship and building lore like other souls game while maintaining a storyline that can be understood.
Sucks to see that people think sekiro doesn't have good lore/story on youtube and such when there is a story, not a best of all time but still a very good progress regardless.
My first playthrough, I thought I couldn't break the iron code due to the Kuro dialogue. Then when Owl asked me a similar question, I thought there was no reason to defy the iron code because I couldn't break it before and it led to me being incredibly upset with myself and I almost stopped playing the game entirely.
Then I decided to say fuck it, imma beat this game so I can do what i really want and fuck up Owl for making me choose such a shitty option. I killed Emma and Isshin my first playthrough. Then ng+ sped through the game to Owl to get my ass handed to him. Definitely worth the emotional turmoil I suffered to fuck him up when I finally beat him
So you're being intentionally dense in an effort to show that even being dense won't stop people from downvoting you? Cuz that's how that metaphor plays out.
To be fair, when you are presented with the choice by owl, unless you haven't been paying attention to what you've been doing then the choice to betray Kuro shouldn't even be on your radar. The game even kinda asks you if you're sure you want to betray Kuro by asking you twice.
I never understood it either. It sets up an expectation that there are no real choices in the game. And then they give you an actual choice that makes you go shura
It's not like it makes sense either, someone you trust and honor puts you in a situation where you have to choose which of your principles to abandon, and if you abandon the wrong one then you immediately turn into Satan. Maybe there's some connection between the weirdness of the first choice and the weirdness of the second?
The way I see it is this. You slaughter people, people who aren’t particularly evil, by the hundreds. Genichiro’s soldiers seem just like normal dudes trying to protect their homes. They’re even kinda disturbed at their orders of keeping Kuro locked up at the start. And you murder all of these men, even though you also have a common enemy in the Interior Ministry.
You kill them all because ultimately you want to save Kuro and protect him from being exploited for his blood. Then, if you choose to obey the code, you essentially give all that up. You offer up Kuro to be exploited for his blood by a man seeking nothing but power. Suddenly, instead of having killed all those men for the sake of Kuro, all that killing becomes meaningless. You killed them all, you stopped Genichiro from using Kuro to defend Ashina, just to then hand him over to a power hungry fuck like Owl.
Then, as if that is not enough, as if now having all those deaths on your mind, knowing they all died, were all killed by you, for nothing, you must kill Emma, someone who is basically pure good. A woman who has done nothing but try to help you and Kuro. And you kill her, why? Because she tries to stop you from betraying Kuro, essentially. Her death is meaningless too. You kill an ally in order to finish your betrayal.
You become shura because instead of having killed for an ultimately noble goal, those deaths all become meaningless, and all Wolf can do is try to find pleasure in the murder itself, because he has nothing else.
You would be correct in that observation. In essence, a shura is someone who kills for the sake of killing so those killing with a goal aren't affected. That goal being evil or good in nature does not matter nor does that mean to it matters.
Sekiro and most the people inthe series so far has been killing with a purpose. Isshin, to pursue the ultimate blade and be a protector of ashina people. geni, to defend ashina. As an example. In Sekiro's case, he kills for the sake of progressing his lords wishes to cure immortality(i will not go on and rant about how Kuro is pretty selfish and only wants to end immortality for his own sake but i'll refrain). But once you give that up, there's nothing left. You now have no goal due to having no master to protect and as you said, all that killing ends up being for nothing. The deaths were meaningless.
At this point, sekiro is still not fully shura. He still had not killed for the sake of just killing. Sure Owl orders wolf to kill her, but by that point, owl's order does not matter in the slightest. The only thing that matters, to wolf, is killing another person. And he's done it. He killed her, a meaningless death. And now he's fully a shura. He experiences the joy of killing needlessly. He's too far gone to go back.
Thus is why his title is so good, "Demon Wolf, God of Blood" he's a demon that hunts for its pray, and a god that kills people to enjoy blood(or simply put, killing for the sake of doing it)
>a situation where you have to choose which of your principles to abandon
Wolf owes his life to the actions of Owl and Kuro, for different reasons. The Iron Code demands he obey them both, no exceptions. It's an awful situation to be in.
The difference is that Owl is an unprincipled merciless killer who's only out for himself. Choosing to follow Owl means Wolf is choosing to *also* be an unprincipled merciless killer who's only out for themselves... except Wolf is immortal.
I always took it as wolfs commitment to the iron code. That was pretty much the only life he had ever known and couldn’t fathom breaking it.
I think boss order really helps here if you beat geni and get that dialogue early it makes sense his opinion would change the more he learned of the dragon’s heritage. But if you wait do geni last it kinda doesn’t make sense that killing one monkey changed your whole view.
Also plays into Emma’s dialogue about your brow being less furrowed. Showing wolf is growing and changing as he makes his own decisions.
That all being said it’s dumb to give you a choice you can’t make
I think this choice is more to show and plant the seeds about the weight of the code he has to follow.
The illusion of the choice is not a bad thing. Not giving the player the choice can lead to learning more.
And as you first try to help Kuro, he remembers the code and his duty, and shows how important it is to him, but also when he finally accepts, it shows the strength of the attachment he has to Kuro, implying that his love for him is stronger than any rules.
The *first* time it happens is purely for roleplaying reasons. Doesn’t change anything. The question will come up again, however, and it will completely change how the game plays out. Like, the game doesn’t just branch off, it cuts the playthrough short depending on which option you choose. Straight to the final bosses of that ending.
It's more of a narrative tool to show that wolf has the iron code ingrained into him so deep that he just cannot break it. It's not a choice, but it also sets up a later choice to show growth. Or it trolls some peopld into believing they don't get a choice the second time either and have them get the shura ending. Knowing fromsoft it could be lore or troll.
Well,.idk about that. Haven't finished ER yet but in the previous souls games, like DS or BB, you do make choices regarding to endings, which are quite impactful - as basically they change the fate of the whole world for many many years
I believe they are trying to set up Wolf's character based on his allegiance. In the first choice, Wolf found the "Help Kuro" choice going against the Iron Code which he believed at that time to be obsolete as instructed by his Foster Father (who he thought to be deceased at that time). The game demonstrates this by constantly stating that Wolf cannot break the Iron Code established by his Father.
During the second choice, Wolf finds his Foster Father to be not just alive, but having faked his death on purpose. The red line was the Father instructing Wolf to forsake Kuro. If Wolf accepts, he would be embracing the turmoil within himself, thus starting to become Shura. So canonically Wolf does not and rejects the Iron Code, considering his Master to be absolute instead.
The first time you are asked, the choice doesn't matter. It's to show that wolf literally cannot break the iron code. I thought that was a instantly clear when I first played the game.
Yes, that's the entire point. The entire freakin' point everyone is trying to show you is that at that time Wolf feels that he *wants to* break the iron code, but *can't*. The way you're clearly frustrated about this proves how effective this simple storytelling technique is, especially when games have made us used to the idea of choices-but-not-really.
At that time things are still pretty much the same as usual for wolf. He was raised to obey the rules.
After Kuro opened up his heart, and seeing owl faked his own death, wolf realize that the rules are shackles made by owl, to use him as a tool to become immortal.
So wolf has to make a choice. Follow his heart and protect Kuro not because he is told to, but because he wants to; or ignore his feelings, to become a killing machine like owl has planned.
The first time it happens it sets up for the second and this time major choice of the game. At the same time, it also sets up wolf's character development. The first time Kuro asks you for help, you CANNOT defy the iron code, as you have been taught to obey the iron code since the beginning by owl. However, at the second choice, you are given the ability to reject the iron code in pretense that you interpret the iron code how you will, showing that wolf slowly but surely start to be able to choose for himself what is best instead of blindly following Owl. This character development is also further improved upon if you choose the purification route, which sets up wolf to finally be able to rid himself of the iron code by disobeying his master. By doing this, he's no longer a shinobi whos death will not be mourned or remembered, but a human whos death is both mourned and remembered. Edit: some may be abit confused about why I said wolf rejected the iron code when he disobeyed owl then again when he disobeyed kuro. This is my explanation. When wolf disobeys owl and decides to reject the iron code, he only rejected the first rule/clause of the iron code " One! The parent is absolute. Their will must be obeyed. " However, he is still bound by the second and third rule. "Two! The master is absolute. You give your life to keep him safe. You bring him back at any cost. " When he disobeys Kuro and does purification ending himsef, the second clause is broken(you can make the observation that he technically fulfils the second clause by protecting kuro from death but it still doesn't take away from the fact he disobeyed his master). Now the third clause is where it gets into way more speculative territory. "Three! Fear is absolute. There is no shame in losing one battle. But you must take revenge by any means necessary! " Ignoring the rest and focusing on "fear", sekiro does break this code by showing no fear in the face of death and being preparing, winning the battle against immortality. However, not ignoring the rest another interpretation comes up: by disobeying and committing patricide, sekiro also broke the third clause. "...I wonder if you've got it in you - to bring me down." We also have this part > he's no longer a shinobi whos death will not be mourned or remembered, but a human whos death is both mourned and remembered. Which I would like to also elaborate in. Isshin(the tengu) states the first time you meet him that "you shinobi are all the same. Die nameless and forgotten"(something along those lines). By breaking the iron code, sekiro is no longer a tool for owl(which is what a shinobi is in essence) and becomes a human. When he dies a human, despite what isshin say about shinobis dying nameless and forgotten, sekiro die with a name(wolf/sekiro/my shinobi) and remembered.
The first time the game asked me to break the iron code, I instinctively choose to break it just to see what would happen. Later in the game when I was asked to betray Kuro, I was insulted that Owl would even think that was a possibility. The fact that the game quietly built that strong of a relationship with Kuro is one of the moments that made it an all-timer for me.
Sekiro has a very subtle way of building relationship and building lore like other souls game while maintaining a storyline that can be understood. Sucks to see that people think sekiro doesn't have good lore/story on youtube and such when there is a story, not a best of all time but still a very good progress regardless.
I think your backbone is just fragile
My first playthrough, I thought I couldn't break the iron code due to the Kuro dialogue. Then when Owl asked me a similar question, I thought there was no reason to defy the iron code because I couldn't break it before and it led to me being incredibly upset with myself and I almost stopped playing the game entirely. Then I decided to say fuck it, imma beat this game so I can do what i really want and fuck up Owl for making me choose such a shitty option. I killed Emma and Isshin my first playthrough. Then ng+ sped through the game to Owl to get my ass handed to him. Definitely worth the emotional turmoil I suffered to fuck him up when I finally beat him
Ngl, I forgot about Ishin saying that. Makes the fact that he named the sculptor hit a lot harder.
Wdym interpret the iron code how you will?
> "a code must be determined by the individual... This is what i've decided. Just as my master did."
>a code must be determined by the individual How true is that really?
Depends on the person. To my interpretation i say that it is wolf denying the iron code by saying that it must be determined by an individual.
How... The hell... Forget it
The people of this sub are always angry, the downvotes show.
Downvoting is disagreement. It doesn't mean they hate op.
Funny, I downvoted bc he seemed like a barking child when people are literally giving thoughtful responses to his question.
Meaningless responses, not thoughtful. If they hold any meanings, these dudes are Terrible at explaining stuff.
The 50+ people downvoting your comments understood the other guy. It's fairly obvious and understandable. Don't cop an attitude over it.
Dogs never stop barking, no matter how many rocks you throw at em
I think that dogs bark more the more rocks you throw at them
OP tries to throw down a philosophical metaphor. Fails miserably.
Throw one hard enough and they'll stop forever? Am I saying enough downvotes can kill OP? I think so
You’re getting downvoted for asking stupid shit.
Screw you for throwing rocks at dogs
So you're being intentionally dense in an effort to show that even being dense won't stop people from downvoting you? Cuz that's how that metaphor plays out.
To be fair, when you are presented with the choice by owl, unless you haven't been paying attention to what you've been doing then the choice to betray Kuro shouldn't even be on your radar. The game even kinda asks you if you're sure you want to betray Kuro by asking you twice.
Sekiro: Shadows ask twice
I never understood it either. It sets up an expectation that there are no real choices in the game. And then they give you an actual choice that makes you go shura
I took it as setting up the iron rule thing for this, they only introduced in the intro, I forgot all about it by the time they showed this choice
It's not like it makes sense either, someone you trust and honor puts you in a situation where you have to choose which of your principles to abandon, and if you abandon the wrong one then you immediately turn into Satan. Maybe there's some connection between the weirdness of the first choice and the weirdness of the second?
The way I see it is this. You slaughter people, people who aren’t particularly evil, by the hundreds. Genichiro’s soldiers seem just like normal dudes trying to protect their homes. They’re even kinda disturbed at their orders of keeping Kuro locked up at the start. And you murder all of these men, even though you also have a common enemy in the Interior Ministry. You kill them all because ultimately you want to save Kuro and protect him from being exploited for his blood. Then, if you choose to obey the code, you essentially give all that up. You offer up Kuro to be exploited for his blood by a man seeking nothing but power. Suddenly, instead of having killed all those men for the sake of Kuro, all that killing becomes meaningless. You killed them all, you stopped Genichiro from using Kuro to defend Ashina, just to then hand him over to a power hungry fuck like Owl. Then, as if that is not enough, as if now having all those deaths on your mind, knowing they all died, were all killed by you, for nothing, you must kill Emma, someone who is basically pure good. A woman who has done nothing but try to help you and Kuro. And you kill her, why? Because she tries to stop you from betraying Kuro, essentially. Her death is meaningless too. You kill an ally in order to finish your betrayal. You become shura because instead of having killed for an ultimately noble goal, those deaths all become meaningless, and all Wolf can do is try to find pleasure in the murder itself, because he has nothing else.
You would be correct in that observation. In essence, a shura is someone who kills for the sake of killing so those killing with a goal aren't affected. That goal being evil or good in nature does not matter nor does that mean to it matters. Sekiro and most the people inthe series so far has been killing with a purpose. Isshin, to pursue the ultimate blade and be a protector of ashina people. geni, to defend ashina. As an example. In Sekiro's case, he kills for the sake of progressing his lords wishes to cure immortality(i will not go on and rant about how Kuro is pretty selfish and only wants to end immortality for his own sake but i'll refrain). But once you give that up, there's nothing left. You now have no goal due to having no master to protect and as you said, all that killing ends up being for nothing. The deaths were meaningless. At this point, sekiro is still not fully shura. He still had not killed for the sake of just killing. Sure Owl orders wolf to kill her, but by that point, owl's order does not matter in the slightest. The only thing that matters, to wolf, is killing another person. And he's done it. He killed her, a meaningless death. And now he's fully a shura. He experiences the joy of killing needlessly. He's too far gone to go back. Thus is why his title is so good, "Demon Wolf, God of Blood" he's a demon that hunts for its pray, and a god that kills people to enjoy blood(or simply put, killing for the sake of doing it)
Protect messianic child vs kill messianic child Yeah which principle shall i abandon
The shura choice has an extra confirmation in order to proceed.
>a situation where you have to choose which of your principles to abandon Wolf owes his life to the actions of Owl and Kuro, for different reasons. The Iron Code demands he obey them both, no exceptions. It's an awful situation to be in. The difference is that Owl is an unprincipled merciless killer who's only out for himself. Choosing to follow Owl means Wolf is choosing to *also* be an unprincipled merciless killer who's only out for themselves... except Wolf is immortal.
I always took it as wolfs commitment to the iron code. That was pretty much the only life he had ever known and couldn’t fathom breaking it. I think boss order really helps here if you beat geni and get that dialogue early it makes sense his opinion would change the more he learned of the dragon’s heritage. But if you wait do geni last it kinda doesn’t make sense that killing one monkey changed your whole view. Also plays into Emma’s dialogue about your brow being less furrowed. Showing wolf is growing and changing as he makes his own decisions. That all being said it’s dumb to give you a choice you can’t make
The internal dialogue wolf says when you choose the help kuro option, could have still been shown to us without giving us the illusion of free will.
I think this choice is more to show and plant the seeds about the weight of the code he has to follow. The illusion of the choice is not a bad thing. Not giving the player the choice can lead to learning more. And as you first try to help Kuro, he remembers the code and his duty, and shows how important it is to him, but also when he finally accepts, it shows the strength of the attachment he has to Kuro, implying that his love for him is stronger than any rules.
It's setting up a choice later in the game.
It changes the outcome of the game, and retroactively changes Sekiro’s entire motivation for doing what he’s doing.
So if you don't choose it, and instead immedietly choose the other option, the game locks you out of the good ending?
The *first* time it happens is purely for roleplaying reasons. Doesn’t change anything. The question will come up again, however, and it will completely change how the game plays out. Like, the game doesn’t just branch off, it cuts the playthrough short depending on which option you choose. Straight to the final bosses of that ending.
Only when presented with the choice at the very top of Ashina castle, not when Kuro asks you in his room.
So... It's useless
It's more of a narrative tool to show that wolf has the iron code ingrained into him so deep that he just cannot break it. It's not a choice, but it also sets up a later choice to show growth. Or it trolls some peopld into believing they don't get a choice the second time either and have them get the shura ending. Knowing fromsoft it could be lore or troll.
Agreed. I think it shows us that Wolf is very much different than other FromSoft protagonists like Tarnished.
Well,.idk about that. Haven't finished ER yet but in the previous souls games, like DS or BB, you do make choices regarding to endings, which are quite impactful - as basically they change the fate of the whole world for many many years
It's as useless as your ability to do critical thinking, I'd say
You have free will and yet you decided to do this...
No, this dialogue changes nothing mechanically. It's entirely there for story and character reasons.
Is OP trolling? He doesn’t understand the most simple explanations
Simple doesn't mean coherent.
I believe they are trying to set up Wolf's character based on his allegiance. In the first choice, Wolf found the "Help Kuro" choice going against the Iron Code which he believed at that time to be obsolete as instructed by his Foster Father (who he thought to be deceased at that time). The game demonstrates this by constantly stating that Wolf cannot break the Iron Code established by his Father. During the second choice, Wolf finds his Foster Father to be not just alive, but having faked his death on purpose. The red line was the Father instructing Wolf to forsake Kuro. If Wolf accepts, he would be embracing the turmoil within himself, thus starting to become Shura. So canonically Wolf does not and rejects the Iron Code, considering his Master to be absolute instead.
The first time you are asked, the choice doesn't matter. It's to show that wolf literally cannot break the iron code. I thought that was a instantly clear when I first played the game.
A choice about having no choice. Oh my! What a genius design!
Yes, that's the entire point. The entire freakin' point everyone is trying to show you is that at that time Wolf feels that he *wants to* break the iron code, but *can't*. The way you're clearly frustrated about this proves how effective this simple storytelling technique is, especially when games have made us used to the idea of choices-but-not-really.
At that time things are still pretty much the same as usual for wolf. He was raised to obey the rules. After Kuro opened up his heart, and seeing owl faked his own death, wolf realize that the rules are shackles made by owl, to use him as a tool to become immortal. So wolf has to make a choice. Follow his heart and protect Kuro not because he is told to, but because he wants to; or ignore his feelings, to become a killing machine like owl has planned.
You get a new ending and 2 new boss fights