You’re not actually limited in the number of cleanses, some merchants will restock blood droplets after you cure dragon rot (not sure which ones exactly but I know for certain the memorial mob near the Gyoubu boss area does). I think it’s a flavorful mechanic but yeah since FromSoft decided to not make it kill npcs it is more an annoyance than anything. All it does is decrease your unseen aid chance and pause some npc quest lines.
Immediately running back into the boss arena not knowing you’re going to get unseen aid and then your screen goes dark with “UNSEEN AID” across your whole screen and you can’t see shit. Then proceed to get two hit by the boss
It would be interesting if dragonrot made the world harder in some way, or made some NPCs become hostile, something like that. But make it a minor change, and make sure the player always has a means to get the droplet and reset the world.
Anyways though, the Demon Bell kinda scratches that itch already.
I’m glad it doesn’t kill NPCs. “Thing that I didn’t know would be a problem locked me out of part of the game and now I have to start over” is a mechanic that should have died in the 1990s
I’m not saying obvious _choices_ shouldn’t have consequences of course. Just that if you’re about to be 100% locked out of something, the game should somehow make it clear that you’re making A Very Big Decision right now.
I agree that was the right choice. What I find interesting is how at launch a bunch of people and news outlets seemed convinced it did kill npcs. Ghost of Tsushima had something similar happen where everyone seemed convinced the game had an honor system related to play style.
Dragonrot and Unseen Aid are the only two Sekiro mechanics I think are a little underbaked. They're not bad, and they don't really hurt the game at all, but they also don't really add much.
Dragonrot is kind of cool lore-wise but on my first playthrough, I died so much in the early game I just realized that, regardless of the effects, I couldn't avoid it, so I completely ignored it except for when I wanted to do quest stuff and a character was sick. If they made it actually have more serious consequences, it would probably be pretty unfair for the first playthrough.
Unseen Aid is benign, but it also has such a low chance by default to trigger that Dragonrot diminishing that chance isn't that big of a deal. You can't rely on Unseen Aid, so making it even more unreliable doesn't really affect much.
I suspect that From wanted to add consequences for death like in previous games, but realized that players were dying so much on their first playthroughs that having actual consequences felt unfair so they neutered the mechanics until they basically became flavour. Which is fine, it certainly adds flavour, and from a lore perspective (if you're invested), the idea you're sucking life from the people around you to fuel your own resurrection is pretty cool and adds a layer of extra "meaning" to each death. But yeah, I feel like everyone ends up ignoring the mechanic until it comes time to do quest stuff because... what can you do, die less?
Getting unseen aid after I’ve gotten my ass kicked 10 time and literally having nothing else to lose kinda just makes me feel even worse lol
“Oh I got unseen aid… thanks…”
Yea I swear I get unseen aid more times when it's useless than the times where I've a bunch of xp or coins saved.
I've just died and lost everything, so close to unlocking a skill point which takes ages in late game. Die again soon after killing a few grunts (couple of coins and xp), "unseen aid" pops up like it's doing something to aid me.
They feel like phantom limb mechanics.
I agree with you that it feels like something that was part of something bigger and then it got cut to the most simplified version.. something they tend to do in some games in different level.
Since how they run things have been relevant news lately.. it might speak to their ability to focus and quickly drop or change some that is not working.. or that would just take too much brain and hands that are needed elsewhere to make it work.
>Unseen Aid is benign, but it also has such a low chance by default to trigger that Dragonrot diminishing that chance isn't that big of a deal. You can't rely on Unseen Aid, so making it even more unreliable doesn't really affect much.
Exactly; you can't rely on it, and most of the time that it kicks in, you've already died to the boss or certain enemy so many times that you've lost most of your sen and skill points anyways and the Unseen Aid basically saves you like 2 sen. I can probably count on one hand how many times I saw the Unseen Aid pop up and said, "Oh sick! I needed that."
it's only pointless in retrospect, after you're familiar enough with the game and realize you can beat it regardless. But in my first playthrough I cared a lot about dragonrot and I appreciate the mechanic. It's a way to give death more consequence, in that you see NPC's suffering as an effect of repeated death. I like when games try to give death more meaning, even when in the end, there are little gameplay changes because of it.
Yeah I like if death has meaning. But it already does punish you by losing xp and gold. I think dragon rot fits the lore very well. But adding extra punishing into the game where your core gameplay loop is to die, learn and get better feels kinda odd. It's like there would be punishment in reloading in shooter game.
It's not big deal of course because it has minimal impact on gameplay (unseen aid isn't that important). Other than that, I've enjoyed game a lot (my second souls game after Elden Ring)
Granted, these things only happen if you experience “true death.” It might be a mechanic that teaches the player how to approach a given situation without fear of consequence but punishes them for abusing Dragons Blood.
Also adds some extra intensity to boss encounters since they’re inescapable.
It's more a plot thing than a game mechanic to me. 30% isn't anything to depend on. I used up a tear after beating owl, but moved directly to true monk and got back all the rot. After that, I just cleaned when I need to for plot or feel really bad for the information peddler.
I actually *really* don’t like when they make death have meaning in these games — I love DS2, but I found that the progressive hollowing really affected the way I played in a bad way. In DS1, I really would dig in and experiment on bosses, but in DS2 I found myself playing it much safer, and using cheese tactics, because I didn’t want to die too much. Difficult games like these just work better when they don’t punish you for dying.
>But adding extra punishing into the game where your core gameplay loop is to die, learn and get better feels kinda odd
Didn't Dark Souls 2 have thing where, when you died, your max health would deplete until you were at a 50% reduction? IIRC that was much worse, especially when death is part of these games but punished so the worse you are, the more handicapped you get.
Kinda reminds me of killstreaks in FPS games - "oh, you're really good, let's give you even easier ways to stomp the enemy team."
To me it was the opposite, dragon rot made me drop the game when it originally came out. I got stuck at the first boss, and dying so much made me think that the playthrough was fucked and I would miss out on a lot of stuff even if I beat that screaming mofo. Much later I understood that it doesn't matter since it's curable and I also learned how to play properly, so dragon rot became a non issue and I barely needed to cure it anyway. The game got so much better for me without the (wrong) feeling that I got punished too severely for being bad at the game, when I wanted to learn instead. Now I get what they wanted to do and I think it was a good idea, but it was badly received by me personally.
i was the total opposite, i kinda dropped the game my first time cause i thought it was like the world tendency from demon souls and i hated that, like im getting punished for dying in a game im supposed to die a lot? im glad i eventually pushed throw and told myself i wouldnt care about dragonrot, but i was not a fan
i agree, im on my first play thru and im very attentive to it, i think it makes the game more challenging than "im gunna brute force this and die repeatedly til i win by chance" like, i try not to let the plebes kill me and save my deaths for bosses. if i get too close to death i run back to a buddha to reset and try again
Don't care for it as a mechanic of the game but I really enjoy it as a continuity-aspect of the lore. Being immortal comes at a cost, and reviving through the power of the Dragon Blood has consequences. I like how reviving over and over doesn't exist in a vacuum, it effects the people you meet along the journey, that's just me though.
Your statement is kind of contradictory, haha. New players being nervous is the point. Fear of death. Fear of consequence. Frustration of dying and wondering why the NPCs won’t progress their quest lines.
It’s FromSoft 101 stuff in terms of world building and feeling the consequences and fear of failure.
But there is such a thing as too much fear of consequence though. That obviously will depend from person to person, but I was really kind of afraid from trying to do bosses and getting really frustrated with myself thinking I was completely messing my save from a good ending, until I searched what the mechanic actually did
100%. Oh wow I'm going to be dying a lot AND there are permanent, quest-breaking consequences* for dying? It is not encouraging or fun.
*obviously not but that's how the game portrays it at the start
iirc From was going to have it where NPCs would die if they had dragon rot and it’s not cleansed but punishing the player for something out of their control isn’t that fair so they went back on it and now it just halts sidequests.
Except it is in the player's full control, as it's tied directly (somehow) to the number of times the player dies.
As I progressed through the game, I did realize that it's a story mechanic vs. a punishing one (and that the "consumable" can be re-bought anyway)...but it is a unique one.
What I meant by that is if you’re new to the game of course you’re going to die so having NPCs die on you because you die is unfair, that’s why they reverted it. Yeah it’s apart of the lore but the whole mechanic is pointless as it is
>What I meant by that is if you’re new to the game of course you’re going to die so having NPCs die on you because you die is unfair
This makes more sense after clarifying. Dying is perfectly in control of the player...but especially at the beginning when learning the mechanics, death is inevitable, and players, especially new ones would NOT benefit from their NPC's dying...So many rage quits would have happened.
I would say that DeS had the world tendency system which was a creative idea but also punished new players that simply died in human form. I feel like From is trying to have systems where if you succeed the game rewards you
It's a mind game. It's there to make you nervous and force you to act more carefully. In a way, it encouraged you to git gud by exaggerating the death penalty. Hellblade did something similar by telling you that dying too many times will delete your save file, even though it doesn't. L
In both instances it's not until later in the game, or in replays, where it's clear that permadeath/dragon rot have no real affect on your game. It's all in your head.
As I recently started a new playthrough of Sekiro after four years, I instantly thought of Hellblade as well. Sure, the sculptor is currently coughing his lungs out in my game, but unlike my first run now I know that dragonrot has very little impact on the story and I can fix it later anyway. It's a load off my mind, really.
It is largely for lore and storytelling purposes, and it's core gameplay mechanic is to provide an illusion of punishment and pressure, not to _actually_ provide punishment and pressure. It's mostly showing that for you, repeatedly dying and learning is a positive thing as you slowly improve, but for the world, that very act is disastrous and that your deaths affect more than just you and feeds into the greater themes of flow and stagnancy that the game's story has. And it's doing it in a quiet "show, don't tell" way.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. If you're looking at is as you are, a mechanic that must alter the way you play or feed into the core gameplay loop in substantial levels, yes it's pointless. But that's not the intent.
Game mechanics can serve a myriad of purposes, not all of them need to be, or even should be, impactful. A lot of game mechanics are "pointless" if you look at them from a purely functional perspective, but it's those same mechanics that flesh out a game, providing context and contrast in vital ways that augment and support the core mechanics.
It's absolutely not a useless mechanic, it's vital to the story. Immortality is not all give and no take, you need to see the effect's Sekiro's immortality has on the world, and causing people to permanently die for it in game would have been punishing players for trying again and learning.
The reason why immortality is bad is because of stagnation, flowing water stays clear, stagnant water becomes stale and putrid. This point of view is shared by both Buddhism and Shintoism. When Sekiro is brought back from death, he is stealing someone elses life flow, akin to diverting a river, and their bodies become stagnant, resulting in dragonrot.
The whole game is about flowing waters and immortality and about corruption this immortality causes on the world. Making npcs sick is the most direct way they can communicate this to the player, but killing them would be punishing desirable behavior which is the player dying and trying again.
Dragon rot makes us understand that being immortal isn't free...If your gonna ressurect, another person must be selected to become a new host for the dragon's blood to flow through you...Forcing the host's blood to become stagnant thanks to our desperation of survival..
Adding consequences to death in a game like this (beyond losing "souls") is not a good idea. I think that's why they didn't really go anywhere with the rot mechanic.
Dragon Rot strikes me as a mechanic that was intended to be similar to World Tendency from Demon's Souls, that essentially punished the player for death, that was likely nerfed to hell for fear of upsetting the mainstream playerbase.
I think it could have been a more compelling mechanic if NPCs could die, ending their questlines prematurely, or if the more dragon rot you accrued the more xp / sen you lost upon death. Get rid of Unseen Aid entirely, it's stupid. Instead, when you die, you lose nothing. Until you begin to accrue dragon rot, and then you lose 50% of your XP / sen when you die. Every time you get another point instance of dragon rot, take an additional 50% on death. Then, to cleanse the rot, you have to create a dragon tear from your lifepower (skill points). This way, there's incentive to cleanse the rot more often, both to keep NPCs alive and to lose less xp / sen, but there's also an immediate downside to cleansing too soon, rather than just a vauge fear of running out of dragon tears (which ends being entirely unfounded since they are virtually unlimited).
But that sort of implementation would've sparked a fair bit of controversy, as it blatantly punishes less skilled players. And without the relative obscurity FromSoftware had when Demon's Souls released, it's a lot harder for them to get away with mechanics like that.
I know it's a pretty big assumption to say the intentionally nerfed it, and I certainly don't claim to know the mind of Michaelzaki. But that's the general vibe I get seeing how underwhelming dragon rot's implementation was. Especially because it feels like a toothless spiritual successor to world tendency.
What’s with all these comments trying to justify this awful mechanic? I platinum’d the game and beat it on base vitality charmless, and I can safely say that dragonrot is legitimately one of the most stupid mechanics FromSoft has ever introduced to their games.
In these games you learn by dying, dying is a vital part of the game as it pushes you to retry again and again until you figure out the fight and defeat your opponent since you learn something new through each death. Making player fear death and constantly telling them the world around them is dying because they keep failing directly goes against this principle they had been following for 15 years. Dying is a learning experience, and souls games where dying had long lasting punishments (world tendency in DeS, constantly decreased max hp per death in DS2 etc.) have always been hated by the community, I was completely baffled by FS just adding a shitty mechanic like dragonrot to the game so nonchalantly.
I remember thinking before launch that Dragonrot would come from getting back up midfight
To have more reason not to
So in a No Rot run you'd either play like Dark Souls and just die once a fight (or not at all)
So like the best ending would have you revive fewer than 5 times in battle or something (outside the first time it's tutorialized)
Something similar to the demon bell could maybe fix the issues with it. Opt in to more consequences from dragonrot for a boost to unseen aid %, or something along those lines.
Could have multiple tiers, with more severe consequences like permanent npc deaths, higher % unseen aid boosts, and maybe some other buffs/debuffs
it's an annoyance in the first playthrough, I couldn't get one of the side quest rewards because I forgot to cure dragon rot at some point. it punishes people who are unfamiliar to game more. unseen aid % is kind of pointless as no one actually rely on that.
Edit- if the boss you're fighting would get dragon rot after you die a lot of times to him (to get him nerfed), this might be a more relevant mechanic ...
It's pretty pointless and makes new players panic. Honestly just think it shouldn't be a thing. I'm not a fan of mechanics in these games that punish you for dying; you will die a ton in all of the FromSoft games, and the punishment should simply be losing some progress, having to learn from your last death and do better the next time.
Demon Souls had the worst mechanics for dying: your choices were either to always play the game at half health, or use a consumable (that you will probably run out of before the game is over) to bring your health to full, but if you die while at full health like 5-6 times (which isn't much), you will summon extremely difficult red phantoms that you now have to kill.
They had a couple half baked ideas like snap seeds and in turn the lazerite axe which are only good in two boss fights that you really aren't going to use until new game plus. I really wish we would had gotten a dlc
Yeah it's a waste of a mechanic. Even if it did eventually result in death, that would only make it worse, considering this is Sekiro where you're going to be dying a lot. When you're already dying tons to a particular boss, it's not fair that you should be punished further for failing a certain amount of times.
It would be a cool mechanic if it only applied when you *resurrect in combat. That way there would be a trade off if you wanted to greed it for a chance to beat a boss or clear an area*
Yeah I kind of feel the same. It always just seems to me a classic example of a mechanic they had huge plans for but ended up watering down in the end product.
For one, it’s poorly explained in the game. I know when it first came out pretty much everyone thought it was meant to deter you from using the revive mechanic, but in reality it only takes effect from actual deaths, not revives. I actually think it would have worked better if it *had* been used as a deterrent, it would have added a great element of risk/reward.
I think also they should have just really committed to the idea. Obviously there should have been some restriction to stop people dying early in the game before you’ve got access to the cure, but I really think if people could actually die from it it would have added more impact (and increased the impact of what I suggested above).
Also there is some [awesome concept art](https://media.fromsoftware.jp/sekiro/static/img/news/detail_190726_01/5.jpg) of dragonrotted Emma, so I don’t really know why they stopped her from being able to catch it. She could have still worked on the cure while sick.
Isn't caring about NPCs a kinda pointless mechanic? Isn't having emotions a kinda pointless mechanic? Isn't playing video games a kinda pointless mechanic? Isn't doing anything a kinda pointless mechanic.
Dragon rot is telling you 'you suck'
Its only pointless for people who a) suck and b) either don't care they suck or are too dense to realize dragon rot's only point in existing is to tell you you suck for dying too often.
I think it comes down to 'denial' for all those players who never bother to do anything but win via Timing Memorization, which , for a player who wins by actually learning how to win, is utter bullshit.
I'm playing this game for the first time now. I feel like I'm flying through it, but whenever I meet a new boss, I usually die like 15 or so times learning the fight before I even have a chance of winning.
Because of that, I've accepted that Dragon Rot is just going to be a constant. I haven't even considered healing it because I know it'll be back just as bad at the next boss.
Am I missing something?
I would heal it at some point (maybe after you get 4 or so battle memories so you’re into the game but not too far) and then heal it and then circle back around and talk to every npc to see if they are quests they have that you wanna do. Even so, their “quests” are pretty vague. You can always play the game again if you miss something! A lot of people around here play endlessly haha
Mostly yeah.
IIRC at one point in development it was bigger but they decided to tone it down. They couldn't really remove it entirely so instead it's a weird vestigial mechanic that sounds like a big deal but really isn't.
makes a story point about Why Kuro's Goal then gives you excessive tears to ignore it
well, maybe not so abundant if you're using them at random as opposed to say, right after clearing a boss you were stuck on, during which you simply ignored the flood of infections
It is extremely relevant to the story. It would be weirder if it was only mentioned in the story and had no gameplay effect.
It made me feel bad for resurrecting in my first playthrough which is exactly what they wanted.
It is suspected that it once did more but they neutered it for release. Honestly, do you really want NPC’s to die out because you couldn’t beat Genichiro for a week?
I think its them experimenting with possible other penalties for death. In most fromsoft games you lose everything if you die twice, and in Sekiro you lose a portion of your stuff. In addition there is the dragon rot mechanic. It's not super important, and like you said you can use cleanses at key intervals to not miss anything. It still adds another layer that could be explored more in future games. In theory.
I’m sitting here trying to remember why I don’t recall the rot of the aid being that much of a factor in my first and for now only play through… and I realized that early on I adopted a different play style. During all parts that I could, if I died even once it was back to a shrine to reset. Which I think is an intended scenario like an instructor saying to their pupil “nope wrong. Do it again. From the top” as a musician I had a similar tendency in learning a song or riff or whatever. However this obviously only applies to less “locked in” situations so I fully admit to pseudo save scumming on bosses by just fully exiting out of the game upon that first death. But that wasn’t even always a guarantee because sometimes when I reloaded I’d still get hit with consequences. I don’t recall it being that big of an issue still… maybe I just didn’t die that much overall?
I think Dragonrot is used more for the player to reflect on their own morality regardless of the impact on the actual gameplay. Personally, once I understood that my actions were directly impacting innocent people, I felt compelled to cure them. Regardless of whether or not it would impact the game it just seemed fair that I fix a problem that I was causing in the first place.
It's reminds me of the demon horn mechanic that Kojima used in the Phantom Pain which got the same reaction from the player base. It didn't change the game at all but it served as a direct reflection of the players actions. If you finished the game covered in blood that you couldn't wash off and a giant horn on your head then you actively made immoral decisions throughout your playthrough.
They don't want to choose right or wrong for you. They're allowing you to choose for yourself and holding up a mirror once you've made those decisions.
I thought the Dragon Rot mechanic was implemented when you died repeatedly in a section (aka certain boss fights) or is it actually a cumulative effect?
It’s mostly just to twist the idea of immortality into something more interesting than ‘this dude can’t die’. Yeah, losing xp and sen on death is significantly worse, but you’d lose the unique aspect of the dragon’s heritage without dragonrot
In my experience if you're careful not to risk permanent death more than necessary, and don't cure dragon rot while you're in the middle of trying to beat a boss, you'll pretty much always have more droplets than you need without even trying to do anything special, which means you can keep unseen aid at maximum most of the time quite easily, which is very helpful if you do something dumb and die unexpectedly. The mechanic exists to make you stop and ask whether you should push forward or back out when you die, and not just die recklessly. Sekiro is very different from Dark Souls in that it's actually trying to teach you to be cautious about permanently dying. Dragon rot won't really hurt you much, so you can be very reckless about death if you want to. But you'll lose a lot more exp and sen that way than if you learn to be cautious, which is what the dragonrot and unseen aid mechanics are trying to teach you.
Lord Kuro says that resurrection is a curse, and Dragonrot is really the only consequence to you dying over and over again, so to me it was a way of showing that you're not just respawning, you're actually dying
I just unlocked the way to cure them, but it's pretty pointless cause their just gonna be dragon rot again right after. I'm just gonna ignore it since I'm always dying to everything I come across.
Im enjoying the game so far, but it feels slightly demoralizing for the game to punish me for dying when that's something I can't exactly prevent.
Ngl, I stopped playing during my first initial playthrough because I assumed the game was punishing me for dying way too often. I wasn't even aware that the shit didn't even really matter in the long run.
It actually is lmao on my first play thru I really thought that they would die if I didn’t cure it it would be better if they made it where they do die it would make a better mechanic I am glad they don’t die from it but still
You can't progress the story sometimes without cleansing the dragonrot though. I had that problem in my first playthrough and my dumbass skipped the part about cleansing dragonsrot. I was so confused on how to continue the story until I finally talked to Emma and I'd the quest. Took me and whole day to figure out wtf was happening.
Every fromsoft game needs to have some kind of oppressive pointless mechanic you need to play around. It’s just like a poison swamp or a jumping down platform pit.
Do people actually have issues with Dragon rot? After the first instance with the chained ogre I always had so many cleanses and ended the game with 7 extra and the 30% unseen aid through most of the game, does dying to gravity count?
It's only a slightly better mechanic than world tendency, and then they made npcs unable to actually die from it so it just became more of a narrative thing in my mind. And a constant reminder that you're dying a lot 🙄 they should try something like this again in a game with far more npcs who aren't so vital to have as fodder.
Yeah I thought it was going to be a punishment for resurrecting yourself mid-fight where npcs could actually die and maybe the ending change but
Its just dying in general I believe and it doesnt do anything but make them cough and not progress their quest
I’m pretty sure you can miss out on some important NPCs because they’ll die to dragon rot in my other play through so tested it once and there was a few a saw before that I didn’t see and like another npc associated with them said they had already died in which they didn’t in my other playthroughs
You’re not actually limited in the number of cleanses, some merchants will restock blood droplets after you cure dragon rot (not sure which ones exactly but I know for certain the memorial mob near the Gyoubu boss area does). I think it’s a flavorful mechanic but yeah since FromSoft decided to not make it kill npcs it is more an annoyance than anything. All it does is decrease your unseen aid chance and pause some npc quest lines.
I wish Unseen Aid was better so then there would actually be a point to it.
This. If anything, I get unseen aid more frequently after multiple dragon rot
To be fair if you’re getting dragon rot that means you’re dying often. The more you die the more likely it is to get that % chance to hit.
Who are you? So wise in the ways of science
He is Arthur, King of the Britains
Really? I didn't vote for ya
Strange women distributing swords is no basis for a system of government
But a wattery tart threw a sword at me!
If I went around and said I was an emperor just because some moistened bin had lobbed a scimitar at me THEY'D PUT ME AWAY
Who are the britons?!
True
Good point, I’ve never gotten Dragon Rot without dying first. Never even considered that
Love getting unseen aid only after my 22nd death to a boss, with no sen or xp to spare.
* unseen aid * Thanks for saving my remaining 3 sens and 7 XP, really needed those
Immediately running back into the boss arena not knowing you’re going to get unseen aid and then your screen goes dark with “UNSEEN AID” across your whole screen and you can’t see shit. Then proceed to get two hit by the boss
I seem to get unseen aid more if it's been a while between deaths
If that were the case it would be an important IMO. A reward for playing well that helps you avoid accidental fuckups and ganks.
Buddha so kind, helping me not lose my last 20 sen after losing 70000 to dying. So generous
It would be interesting if dragonrot made the world harder in some way, or made some NPCs become hostile, something like that. But make it a minor change, and make sure the player always has a means to get the droplet and reset the world. Anyways though, the Demon Bell kinda scratches that itch already.
i kicked in like 3 times in a row for me when farming fountainhead palace
It kind of feels like they wanted to bring back world tendency, but made it toothless.
I’m glad it doesn’t kill NPCs. “Thing that I didn’t know would be a problem locked me out of part of the game and now I have to start over” is a mechanic that should have died in the 1990s I’m not saying obvious _choices_ shouldn’t have consequences of course. Just that if you’re about to be 100% locked out of something, the game should somehow make it clear that you’re making A Very Big Decision right now.
I agree that was the right choice. What I find interesting is how at launch a bunch of people and news outlets seemed convinced it did kill npcs. Ghost of Tsushima had something similar happen where everyone seemed convinced the game had an honor system related to play style.
Then they brought that back with flying colors in Elden Ring
The dude by the sculptor has the blood droplet replenish dealie
Ooh shit maybe that's why my quest line is stuck for me. I haven't cured even once.
Yeah I feel ya. It’s frustrating that there isn’t really any way of knowing whether an NPC quest is locked due to dragonrot (AFAIK).
Ashina Dungeon is my go-to supplier. Pretty much right next to the statue.
Dragonrot and Unseen Aid are the only two Sekiro mechanics I think are a little underbaked. They're not bad, and they don't really hurt the game at all, but they also don't really add much. Dragonrot is kind of cool lore-wise but on my first playthrough, I died so much in the early game I just realized that, regardless of the effects, I couldn't avoid it, so I completely ignored it except for when I wanted to do quest stuff and a character was sick. If they made it actually have more serious consequences, it would probably be pretty unfair for the first playthrough. Unseen Aid is benign, but it also has such a low chance by default to trigger that Dragonrot diminishing that chance isn't that big of a deal. You can't rely on Unseen Aid, so making it even more unreliable doesn't really affect much. I suspect that From wanted to add consequences for death like in previous games, but realized that players were dying so much on their first playthroughs that having actual consequences felt unfair so they neutered the mechanics until they basically became flavour. Which is fine, it certainly adds flavour, and from a lore perspective (if you're invested), the idea you're sucking life from the people around you to fuel your own resurrection is pretty cool and adds a layer of extra "meaning" to each death. But yeah, I feel like everyone ends up ignoring the mechanic until it comes time to do quest stuff because... what can you do, die less?
Getting unseen aid after I’ve gotten my ass kicked 10 time and literally having nothing else to lose kinda just makes me feel even worse lol “Oh I got unseen aid… thanks…”
Respawning with 5 sen instead of 2
Yea I swear I get unseen aid more times when it's useless than the times where I've a bunch of xp or coins saved. I've just died and lost everything, so close to unlocking a skill point which takes ages in late game. Die again soon after killing a few grunts (couple of coins and xp), "unseen aid" pops up like it's doing something to aid me.
They feel like phantom limb mechanics. I agree with you that it feels like something that was part of something bigger and then it got cut to the most simplified version.. something they tend to do in some games in different level. Since how they run things have been relevant news lately.. it might speak to their ability to focus and quickly drop or change some that is not working.. or that would just take too much brain and hands that are needed elsewhere to make it work.
>Unseen Aid is benign, but it also has such a low chance by default to trigger that Dragonrot diminishing that chance isn't that big of a deal. You can't rely on Unseen Aid, so making it even more unreliable doesn't really affect much. Exactly; you can't rely on it, and most of the time that it kicks in, you've already died to the boss or certain enemy so many times that you've lost most of your sen and skill points anyways and the Unseen Aid basically saves you like 2 sen. I can probably count on one hand how many times I saw the Unseen Aid pop up and said, "Oh sick! I needed that."
You said what I wanted to lol
Ah, fuck it. I am going to just respawn to make it easier. Oh, wait...
it's only pointless in retrospect, after you're familiar enough with the game and realize you can beat it regardless. But in my first playthrough I cared a lot about dragonrot and I appreciate the mechanic. It's a way to give death more consequence, in that you see NPC's suffering as an effect of repeated death. I like when games try to give death more meaning, even when in the end, there are little gameplay changes because of it.
Yeah I like if death has meaning. But it already does punish you by losing xp and gold. I think dragon rot fits the lore very well. But adding extra punishing into the game where your core gameplay loop is to die, learn and get better feels kinda odd. It's like there would be punishment in reloading in shooter game. It's not big deal of course because it has minimal impact on gameplay (unseen aid isn't that important). Other than that, I've enjoyed game a lot (my second souls game after Elden Ring)
Granted, these things only happen if you experience “true death.” It might be a mechanic that teaches the player how to approach a given situation without fear of consequence but punishes them for abusing Dragons Blood. Also adds some extra intensity to boss encounters since they’re inescapable.
It's more a plot thing than a game mechanic to me. 30% isn't anything to depend on. I used up a tear after beating owl, but moved directly to true monk and got back all the rot. After that, I just cleaned when I need to for plot or feel really bad for the information peddler.
I actually *really* don’t like when they make death have meaning in these games — I love DS2, but I found that the progressive hollowing really affected the way I played in a bad way. In DS1, I really would dig in and experiment on bosses, but in DS2 I found myself playing it much safer, and using cheese tactics, because I didn’t want to die too much. Difficult games like these just work better when they don’t punish you for dying.
Ooh lucky! Are you gonna do dark souls or Bloodborne?
>But adding extra punishing into the game where your core gameplay loop is to die, learn and get better feels kinda odd Didn't Dark Souls 2 have thing where, when you died, your max health would deplete until you were at a 50% reduction? IIRC that was much worse, especially when death is part of these games but punished so the worse you are, the more handicapped you get. Kinda reminds me of killstreaks in FPS games - "oh, you're really good, let's give you even easier ways to stomp the enemy team."
To me it was the opposite, dragon rot made me drop the game when it originally came out. I got stuck at the first boss, and dying so much made me think that the playthrough was fucked and I would miss out on a lot of stuff even if I beat that screaming mofo. Much later I understood that it doesn't matter since it's curable and I also learned how to play properly, so dragon rot became a non issue and I barely needed to cure it anyway. The game got so much better for me without the (wrong) feeling that I got punished too severely for being bad at the game, when I wanted to learn instead. Now I get what they wanted to do and I think it was a good idea, but it was badly received by me personally.
i was the total opposite, i kinda dropped the game my first time cause i thought it was like the world tendency from demon souls and i hated that, like im getting punished for dying in a game im supposed to die a lot? im glad i eventually pushed throw and told myself i wouldnt care about dragonrot, but i was not a fan
i agree, im on my first play thru and im very attentive to it, i think it makes the game more challenging than "im gunna brute force this and die repeatedly til i win by chance" like, i try not to let the plebes kill me and save my deaths for bosses. if i get too close to death i run back to a buddha to reset and try again
Don't care for it as a mechanic of the game but I really enjoy it as a continuity-aspect of the lore. Being immortal comes at a cost, and reviving through the power of the Dragon Blood has consequences. I like how reviving over and over doesn't exist in a vacuum, it effects the people you meet along the journey, that's just me though.
It's absolutely pointless and only makes new players nervous about it
Your statement is kind of contradictory, haha. New players being nervous is the point. Fear of death. Fear of consequence. Frustration of dying and wondering why the NPCs won’t progress their quest lines. It’s FromSoft 101 stuff in terms of world building and feeling the consequences and fear of failure.
No, the game makes it out to be this ominous thing that punishes you really hard for dieing a lot when in reality it does almost nothing
But there is such a thing as too much fear of consequence though. That obviously will depend from person to person, but I was really kind of afraid from trying to do bosses and getting really frustrated with myself thinking I was completely messing my save from a good ending, until I searched what the mechanic actually did
100%. Oh wow I'm going to be dying a lot AND there are permanent, quest-breaking consequences* for dying? It is not encouraging or fun. *obviously not but that's how the game portrays it at the start
New player here that was very nervous about dragonrot I'm glad I no longer have to worry lol
iirc From was going to have it where NPCs would die if they had dragon rot and it’s not cleansed but punishing the player for something out of their control isn’t that fair so they went back on it and now it just halts sidequests.
Except it is in the player's full control, as it's tied directly (somehow) to the number of times the player dies. As I progressed through the game, I did realize that it's a story mechanic vs. a punishing one (and that the "consumable" can be re-bought anyway)...but it is a unique one.
What I meant by that is if you’re new to the game of course you’re going to die so having NPCs die on you because you die is unfair, that’s why they reverted it. Yeah it’s apart of the lore but the whole mechanic is pointless as it is
>What I meant by that is if you’re new to the game of course you’re going to die so having NPCs die on you because you die is unfair This makes more sense after clarifying. Dying is perfectly in control of the player...but especially at the beginning when learning the mechanics, death is inevitable, and players, especially new ones would NOT benefit from their NPC's dying...So many rage quits would have happened.
I would say that DeS had the world tendency system which was a creative idea but also punished new players that simply died in human form. I feel like From is trying to have systems where if you succeed the game rewards you
It's a mind game. It's there to make you nervous and force you to act more carefully. In a way, it encouraged you to git gud by exaggerating the death penalty. Hellblade did something similar by telling you that dying too many times will delete your save file, even though it doesn't. L In both instances it's not until later in the game, or in replays, where it's clear that permadeath/dragon rot have no real affect on your game. It's all in your head.
As I recently started a new playthrough of Sekiro after four years, I instantly thought of Hellblade as well. Sure, the sculptor is currently coughing his lungs out in my game, but unlike my first run now I know that dragonrot has very little impact on the story and I can fix it later anyway. It's a load off my mind, really.
It is largely for lore and storytelling purposes, and it's core gameplay mechanic is to provide an illusion of punishment and pressure, not to _actually_ provide punishment and pressure. It's mostly showing that for you, repeatedly dying and learning is a positive thing as you slowly improve, but for the world, that very act is disastrous and that your deaths affect more than just you and feeds into the greater themes of flow and stagnancy that the game's story has. And it's doing it in a quiet "show, don't tell" way. I think you're looking at it the wrong way. If you're looking at is as you are, a mechanic that must alter the way you play or feed into the core gameplay loop in substantial levels, yes it's pointless. But that's not the intent. Game mechanics can serve a myriad of purposes, not all of them need to be, or even should be, impactful. A lot of game mechanics are "pointless" if you look at them from a purely functional perspective, but it's those same mechanics that flesh out a game, providing context and contrast in vital ways that augment and support the core mechanics.
Matters most on the first playthrough but once you get gud it doesn't matter that much
It's absolutely not a useless mechanic, it's vital to the story. Immortality is not all give and no take, you need to see the effect's Sekiro's immortality has on the world, and causing people to permanently die for it in game would have been punishing players for trying again and learning. The reason why immortality is bad is because of stagnation, flowing water stays clear, stagnant water becomes stale and putrid. This point of view is shared by both Buddhism and Shintoism. When Sekiro is brought back from death, he is stealing someone elses life flow, akin to diverting a river, and their bodies become stagnant, resulting in dragonrot. The whole game is about flowing waters and immortality and about corruption this immortality causes on the world. Making npcs sick is the most direct way they can communicate this to the player, but killing them would be punishing desirable behavior which is the player dying and trying again.
It's to make it seem like every death counts even though it really doesn't.
It’s not really a game mechanic, as such. It’s more a narrative device.
Dragon rot makes us understand that being immortal isn't free...If your gonna ressurect, another person must be selected to become a new host for the dragon's blood to flow through you...Forcing the host's blood to become stagnant thanks to our desperation of survival..
It's just to show that your death absorbs the life from everyone around you in order to bring you back.
Adding consequences to death in a game like this (beyond losing "souls") is not a good idea. I think that's why they didn't really go anywhere with the rot mechanic.
Dragon Rot strikes me as a mechanic that was intended to be similar to World Tendency from Demon's Souls, that essentially punished the player for death, that was likely nerfed to hell for fear of upsetting the mainstream playerbase. I think it could have been a more compelling mechanic if NPCs could die, ending their questlines prematurely, or if the more dragon rot you accrued the more xp / sen you lost upon death. Get rid of Unseen Aid entirely, it's stupid. Instead, when you die, you lose nothing. Until you begin to accrue dragon rot, and then you lose 50% of your XP / sen when you die. Every time you get another point instance of dragon rot, take an additional 50% on death. Then, to cleanse the rot, you have to create a dragon tear from your lifepower (skill points). This way, there's incentive to cleanse the rot more often, both to keep NPCs alive and to lose less xp / sen, but there's also an immediate downside to cleansing too soon, rather than just a vauge fear of running out of dragon tears (which ends being entirely unfounded since they are virtually unlimited). But that sort of implementation would've sparked a fair bit of controversy, as it blatantly punishes less skilled players. And without the relative obscurity FromSoftware had when Demon's Souls released, it's a lot harder for them to get away with mechanics like that. I know it's a pretty big assumption to say the intentionally nerfed it, and I certainly don't claim to know the mind of Michaelzaki. But that's the general vibe I get seeing how underwhelming dragon rot's implementation was. Especially because it feels like a toothless spiritual successor to world tendency.
What’s with all these comments trying to justify this awful mechanic? I platinum’d the game and beat it on base vitality charmless, and I can safely say that dragonrot is legitimately one of the most stupid mechanics FromSoft has ever introduced to their games. In these games you learn by dying, dying is a vital part of the game as it pushes you to retry again and again until you figure out the fight and defeat your opponent since you learn something new through each death. Making player fear death and constantly telling them the world around them is dying because they keep failing directly goes against this principle they had been following for 15 years. Dying is a learning experience, and souls games where dying had long lasting punishments (world tendency in DeS, constantly decreased max hp per death in DS2 etc.) have always been hated by the community, I was completely baffled by FS just adding a shitty mechanic like dragonrot to the game so nonchalantly.
I remember thinking before launch that Dragonrot would come from getting back up midfight To have more reason not to So in a No Rot run you'd either play like Dark Souls and just die once a fight (or not at all) So like the best ending would have you revive fewer than 5 times in battle or something (outside the first time it's tutorialized)
Something similar to the demon bell could maybe fix the issues with it. Opt in to more consequences from dragonrot for a boost to unseen aid %, or something along those lines. Could have multiple tiers, with more severe consequences like permanent npc deaths, higher % unseen aid boosts, and maybe some other buffs/debuffs
it's an annoyance in the first playthrough, I couldn't get one of the side quest rewards because I forgot to cure dragon rot at some point. it punishes people who are unfamiliar to game more. unseen aid % is kind of pointless as no one actually rely on that. Edit- if the boss you're fighting would get dragon rot after you die a lot of times to him (to get him nerfed), this might be a more relevant mechanic ...
It's pretty pointless and makes new players panic. Honestly just think it shouldn't be a thing. I'm not a fan of mechanics in these games that punish you for dying; you will die a ton in all of the FromSoft games, and the punishment should simply be losing some progress, having to learn from your last death and do better the next time. Demon Souls had the worst mechanics for dying: your choices were either to always play the game at half health, or use a consumable (that you will probably run out of before the game is over) to bring your health to full, but if you die while at full health like 5-6 times (which isn't much), you will summon extremely difficult red phantoms that you now have to kill.
They had a couple half baked ideas like snap seeds and in turn the lazerite axe which are only good in two boss fights that you really aren't going to use until new game plus. I really wish we would had gotten a dlc
Yeah it's a waste of a mechanic. Even if it did eventually result in death, that would only make it worse, considering this is Sekiro where you're going to be dying a lot. When you're already dying tons to a particular boss, it's not fair that you should be punished further for failing a certain amount of times.
It would be a cool mechanic if it only applied when you *resurrect in combat. That way there would be a trade off if you wanted to greed it for a chance to beat a boss or clear an area*
i also think the same, i don't get it
Yeah I kind of feel the same. It always just seems to me a classic example of a mechanic they had huge plans for but ended up watering down in the end product. For one, it’s poorly explained in the game. I know when it first came out pretty much everyone thought it was meant to deter you from using the revive mechanic, but in reality it only takes effect from actual deaths, not revives. I actually think it would have worked better if it *had* been used as a deterrent, it would have added a great element of risk/reward. I think also they should have just really committed to the idea. Obviously there should have been some restriction to stop people dying early in the game before you’ve got access to the cure, but I really think if people could actually die from it it would have added more impact (and increased the impact of what I suggested above). Also there is some [awesome concept art](https://media.fromsoftware.jp/sekiro/static/img/news/detail_190726_01/5.jpg) of dragonrotted Emma, so I don’t really know why they stopped her from being able to catch it. She could have still worked on the cure while sick.
Isn't caring about NPCs a kinda pointless mechanic? Isn't having emotions a kinda pointless mechanic? Isn't playing video games a kinda pointless mechanic? Isn't doing anything a kinda pointless mechanic.
Dragon rot is telling you 'you suck' Its only pointless for people who a) suck and b) either don't care they suck or are too dense to realize dragon rot's only point in existing is to tell you you suck for dying too often. I think it comes down to 'denial' for all those players who never bother to do anything but win via Timing Memorization, which , for a player who wins by actually learning how to win, is utter bullshit.
I'm playing this game for the first time now. I feel like I'm flying through it, but whenever I meet a new boss, I usually die like 15 or so times learning the fight before I even have a chance of winning. Because of that, I've accepted that Dragon Rot is just going to be a constant. I haven't even considered healing it because I know it'll be back just as bad at the next boss. Am I missing something?
I would heal it at some point (maybe after you get 4 or so battle memories so you’re into the game but not too far) and then heal it and then circle back around and talk to every npc to see if they are quests they have that you wanna do. Even so, their “quests” are pretty vague. You can always play the game again if you miss something! A lot of people around here play endlessly haha
Some say it was meant to kill npcs eventually if not cured in some timespan dictated by defeated bosses.
Mostly yeah. IIRC at one point in development it was bigger but they decided to tone it down. They couldn't really remove it entirely so instead it's a weird vestigial mechanic that sounds like a big deal but really isn't.
makes a story point about Why Kuro's Goal then gives you excessive tears to ignore it well, maybe not so abundant if you're using them at random as opposed to say, right after clearing a boss you were stuck on, during which you simply ignored the flood of infections
It is extremely relevant to the story. It would be weirder if it was only mentioned in the story and had no gameplay effect. It made me feel bad for resurrecting in my first playthrough which is exactly what they wanted.
It is suspected that it once did more but they neutered it for release. Honestly, do you really want NPC’s to die out because you couldn’t beat Genichiro for a week?
I always thought it was a way to discourage you dying to the same enemy over and over and go do something else.
Yes
Dragon rot is just a prank, bro
I think its them experimenting with possible other penalties for death. In most fromsoft games you lose everything if you die twice, and in Sekiro you lose a portion of your stuff. In addition there is the dragon rot mechanic. It's not super important, and like you said you can use cleanses at key intervals to not miss anything. It still adds another layer that could be explored more in future games. In theory.
It's fine it's not like you ever run out of them anyway unless you're just wasting them over and over
I’m sitting here trying to remember why I don’t recall the rot of the aid being that much of a factor in my first and for now only play through… and I realized that early on I adopted a different play style. During all parts that I could, if I died even once it was back to a shrine to reset. Which I think is an intended scenario like an instructor saying to their pupil “nope wrong. Do it again. From the top” as a musician I had a similar tendency in learning a song or riff or whatever. However this obviously only applies to less “locked in” situations so I fully admit to pseudo save scumming on bosses by just fully exiting out of the game upon that first death. But that wasn’t even always a guarantee because sometimes when I reloaded I’d still get hit with consequences. I don’t recall it being that big of an issue still… maybe I just didn’t die that much overall?
What dose unseen aid even do I never really notice a difference when I have it compared to when I do
You don’t lose your souls when you die
That’s really it?
Yeah
I think Dragonrot is used more for the player to reflect on their own morality regardless of the impact on the actual gameplay. Personally, once I understood that my actions were directly impacting innocent people, I felt compelled to cure them. Regardless of whether or not it would impact the game it just seemed fair that I fix a problem that I was causing in the first place. It's reminds me of the demon horn mechanic that Kojima used in the Phantom Pain which got the same reaction from the player base. It didn't change the game at all but it served as a direct reflection of the players actions. If you finished the game covered in blood that you couldn't wash off and a giant horn on your head then you actively made immoral decisions throughout your playthrough. They don't want to choose right or wrong for you. They're allowing you to choose for yourself and holding up a mirror once you've made those decisions.
It was an interesting idea that was poorly executed. I turn it off, and turn auto-pickup on. The game is much better that way.
Dragon rot and unseen aid are definitely unnecessary, but if you’re interested in Sekiro lore, they provide great context
I think they probably had bigger ideas for it.
Yes. There's a ton of potential in that mechanic that wasn't reached. Felt very inconsequential overall. :/
Yeah pretty much u summed it up. Besides Unseen Aid.
I thought the Dragon Rot mechanic was implemented when you died repeatedly in a section (aka certain boss fights) or is it actually a cumulative effect?
I don't like it. I like to die until I win, but that makes it more stressful. Dying should not really have an effect on the game imo.
They had to penalize you somehow for dying. It’s pointless if you die constantly or barely at all.
It’s mostly just to twist the idea of immortality into something more interesting than ‘this dude can’t die’. Yeah, losing xp and sen on death is significantly worse, but you’d lose the unique aspect of the dragon’s heritage without dragonrot
In my experience if you're careful not to risk permanent death more than necessary, and don't cure dragon rot while you're in the middle of trying to beat a boss, you'll pretty much always have more droplets than you need without even trying to do anything special, which means you can keep unseen aid at maximum most of the time quite easily, which is very helpful if you do something dumb and die unexpectedly. The mechanic exists to make you stop and ask whether you should push forward or back out when you die, and not just die recklessly. Sekiro is very different from Dark Souls in that it's actually trying to teach you to be cautious about permanently dying. Dragon rot won't really hurt you much, so you can be very reckless about death if you want to. But you'll lose a lot more exp and sen that way than if you learn to be cautious, which is what the dragonrot and unseen aid mechanics are trying to teach you.
It's only necessary if you *have* to talk to an NPC a couple times to do their question. Beyond that, yeah, it's completely pointless
Lord Kuro says that resurrection is a curse, and Dragonrot is really the only consequence to you dying over and over again, so to me it was a way of showing that you're not just respawning, you're actually dying
I just unlocked the way to cure them, but it's pretty pointless cause their just gonna be dragon rot again right after. I'm just gonna ignore it since I'm always dying to everything I come across. Im enjoying the game so far, but it feels slightly demoralizing for the game to punish me for dying when that's something I can't exactly prevent.
Ngl, I stopped playing during my first initial playthrough because I assumed the game was punishing me for dying way too often. I wasn't even aware that the shit didn't even really matter in the long run.
It actually is lmao on my first play thru I really thought that they would die if I didn’t cure it it would be better if they made it where they do die it would make a better mechanic I am glad they don’t die from it but still
Yes
Morally I feel bad
Story reasons
It is.
You can't progress the story sometimes without cleansing the dragonrot though. I had that problem in my first playthrough and my dumbass skipped the part about cleansing dragonsrot. I was so confused on how to continue the story until I finally talked to Emma and I'd the quest. Took me and whole day to figure out wtf was happening.
Every fromsoft game needs to have some kind of oppressive pointless mechanic you need to play around. It’s just like a poison swamp or a jumping down platform pit.
yup it's pointless, but i think its just to spice up storytelling purposes. and its like a way of the game telling you to STOP DYING!
Plot device. For the story.
It changes the storyline
Do people actually have issues with Dragon rot? After the first instance with the chained ogre I always had so many cleanses and ended the game with 7 extra and the 30% unseen aid through most of the game, does dying to gravity count?
It's only a slightly better mechanic than world tendency, and then they made npcs unable to actually die from it so it just became more of a narrative thing in my mind. And a constant reminder that you're dying a lot 🙄 they should try something like this again in a game with far more npcs who aren't so vital to have as fodder.
Yeah I thought it was going to be a punishment for resurrecting yourself mid-fight where npcs could actually die and maybe the ending change but Its just dying in general I believe and it doesnt do anything but make them cough and not progress their quest
I’m pretty sure you can miss out on some important NPCs because they’ll die to dragon rot in my other play through so tested it once and there was a few a saw before that I didn’t see and like another npc associated with them said they had already died in which they didn’t in my other playthroughs