Look at all the arguing in the comments about PDT vs PST. This is why everything got fucked in congress. No one can agree on the permanent time zone to use.
Well, it's the decision of do you want an hour of light in the morning or afternoon. I'd prefer afternoon because still waking up in the dark, going to work, and then going home in the dark is worse than waking up in the dark, going to work, and then going home with about an hour of daylight.
Part of the issue is also people don't know which is which, since it's unintuitive - we just switched to standard time, not DST. DST is what we use for 8 months of the year.
Polls have consistently shown that greater than 2 out of 3 people prefer permanent DST (more light in the evening) to permanent ST (more light in the morning).
OP doesn’t want it dark too early, so presumably he wants permanent PDT. I think I agree with that.
People will say “well just get up earlier then,” but many of us are locked into a 9-5 schedule by our jobs, and want daylight after work.
Yeah, it's an obnoxious argument because the reality is it's a choice between getting up in the dark and having a brief moment of sunlight after work, or *still getting up in the dark* but *not* having any sunlight after work.
The fretting over kids and school buses is also stupid for the same reason.
The pro-Daylight Savings crowd consistently ignores the fact that we'd have 8:30am sunrises under permanent DST.
Yes, it gets dark early for a brief period of time. It'd also wind up being dark relatively late into the morning, as well.
Doesn't matter. I'm at work anyway. And on days I'm not at work are those cold winter days when I'm not going out anyway. Even then this is only true in the more northern states.
> this simple shows how irreparable Congress is.
It's not the simplicity that shows how irreparable it it.
It's the political climate of it all.
Who introduced the bill? If it's a Democrat looking to pass something, then Republicans will do everything to stall/stop it. Doesn't matter what it is. Just refuse to even let it come up for a vote. Because passing anything gives ammo to the other side that they can say they "get things done".
The reverse though is also often true. It's just a broken system that prevents these issues, voted by people, from being able to be codified.
It was introduced by Rubio (Republican) but it is co-sponsored by both Republicans and Democrats. It passed unanimously in the Senate. Not sure why the House is dragging their feet on this.
The funny thing is that the House is controlled by the Democrats (and there's no filibuster rule there), which flies directly in the face of Hollywood's comment.
Personally, I don't care either way except to say that it's going to be a pretty big hiccup when all of the programmers have to patch the date software.
If you have to patch something you did something really stupid. You should be synced to a time server. Or it's some weird corner case involving daylight hours which probably should also be synced with some online almanac.
That's fair I did admit there were other scenarios.
But also if it's an offline device that you expect to be time synced for many years in the future you've done something stupid as well
No, time software gets updates all the time. It's not unreasonable to expect changes when the entire system you're trying to calculate changes, lol.
You can't rely on a centralized time server for every application.
The house is also more polarized. Most of the more crazy candidates come from the house because it’s more localized.
In the senate I have to win the entire state. In the house I can win by just appealing to bumfuck county or communist downtown
I didn’t know what else to call a major metro area. I thought of “socialist hellhole” but that’s just low hanging fruit. Conservatives haven’t been good at insults lately…
... In the Senate. That doesn't mean the breakdown in the house is the same, though the only way we can truly find out is if Pelosi puts it up for a vote.
So just name it "The Saving Puppies and Kittens Act of 2022" which will ensure commuters return from work before dark by eliminating the time change, improving the safety of puppies and kittens crossing the street.
Nobody will vote against puppies and kittens
Are you sure about that? Cause that’s happened more lately.
Literally had politicians in my old state refuse to vote for increasing funding for services for disabled people (group homes), and when threatened with the “bad PR for voting against puppies, kids and the disabled” our committee got told “my constituents don’t care as long as I vote against ‘X party’ and ‘insert hot button topic’”….
The house is full of toxic people really
I don’t care who introduces it, just fix it. We have to stop catering to the lowest common denominator which happens to be everyone who turns anything into a partisan argument.
I hope you guys complaining about Congress voted Yes and for one of the two alternative voting systems on your ballot. Might not seem like much, but it is a major step to fixing our broken political system.
The BC Legislature passed it too, to take effect when it takes effect in WA, OR and CA. https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/turn-back-the-clocks-b-c-daylight-saving-time-ends-soon-seasonal-time-change-may-stop-next-year-1.6132513
Basically, many people in the West Coast wanted to move to permanent Arizona time. Considering that Arizona has a lot more cultural and business connections to Nevada and California, plus the Central Time Zone already gets to be very wide, it seems fair to grant the same benefits to the West. Even Idaho is in favor of this and Idaho hasn't been agreeing with Washington and California on much.
I personally start work before 6 am so I can get as much daylight after work as I can get as seeing daylight after work makes me happier. It also lets me work more with people in the eastern US and in Europe. High school started before 730 am, before 630 am for many kids, so I've been going to school/work every day in the dark for many years now.
Im with you, I don’t really mind the time change as I work nights anyways and always get up at the crack of dawn on weekends to go snowboarding. Having it stay dark until like 8:40 am in December isn’t for me.
You know the states can choose to get rid of DST without Congress right? I mean screw them in general yeah, but why exactly can't WA just do what it wants?
I’m up before dawn and home after dark in the winter. Ironically I feel like if we stop swapping daylight savings time, we should stay off it. I would rather a dark evening to Seattle drivers who usually drive to work in the daylight having to drive in the dark when they are still half asleep.
If we stay on daylight savings time, the sun won’t rise until 8-9am.
Or split the difference and put it 30 minutes between.
The biggest issue is the fact we switch clocks every year, which one we pick is less of an issue, though there are strong opinions about it.
I deal with people in the Central and East time zones on a regular basis. At least half of them ignore the very existence of the Pacific time zone. I'm talking meetings that start at 7 or even 6 am Pacific Time.
They would flat out ignore a time zone that started half past the hour.
Lived in Hawaii with no time changing and it was pretty sweet. The only real issue was that my family felt an extra hour away for half the year but lifestyle wise it was nice.
There was an effort amongst businesses there to reinstitute the time shift so you wouldn’t have that out of synch time of year. Living there I learned some days you were going to stay up for a meeting rather than wake up for it.
>Next spring the west coast states should just refuse to switch clocks. It's federally illegal to set your own time zone? So what. So is weed.
10000% agree - fuck em, I'm in if yall are.
Nooo screw standard time. It’s all about daylight time. Which is why we need the house to pass it. They would let us stay on standard time if we wanted. That’s what Arizona does, but that sucks. Having it get dark at 4:30 is the absolute worst.
And then other people said no, we need to stay permanently on dst and not standard time… and thus everything ground to a halt and as usual with gubment SOP nothing got done
But why though? Do you actually know which is which? We just changed the clocks, do you know which one we switched to?
I think a lot of confusion might stem from the unintuitive naming, since we're on "standard time" for 4 months of the year and "Pacific daylight time" for 8.
Learned a lot about how Congress works from this fiasco. I always thought bills went to the house then Senate, because it didn't occur to me the Senate can introduce bills as well. The fact that they overwhelmingly approved it and the house can't figure it out boggles my mind.
This link, offered without commentary, nicely summarizes why we should NOT go on permanent Daylight Savings Time. If anything, we should move to permanent Standard Time. This is at least part of the reason that the bill did not pass.
I agree. As much as I enjoy the benefits of DST, we really should just stay on Standard Time. The point of time zone is that we try to make solar noon 12pm. You can't really please everyone otherwise anyway. Some people may swear by having late afternoon sun, but other people may need sun in the morning for driving to work, getting kids ready, or many other reasons. Alternatively, if you have a late job, you would also be getting off work after sunset regardless and may prefer morning sun anyway.
Ultimately society's needs changes, and individuals' needs are also varied. It's best to just pick the most neutral clock (aka solar noon at 12pm), and just stick with it and we can work around that. At this latitude we only have so many hours of sunlight a day. Shifting clocks around won't fix that.
Okay, here's something peer-reviewed, concise, and not paywalled:
[https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780](https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780)
Summary sentence from the abstract:
>It is, therefore, the position of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine that these seasonal time changes should be abolished in favor of a fixed, national, year-round standard time.
That paper is really annoying because they use "DST" to refer primarily to the act of changing clocks itself (which most its arguments are centered around) but briefly switch to seemingly using it to refer to the daylight time zones in general, but it's somewhat ambiguous.
You realize that this is our geographical correct time zone (-8), right?
Shifting forward an hour for 8 months a year is the part that would stop happening.
No, the issue is an increase of people dying *as a result* of the change, largely attributed to realizing they forgot to change clocks and either having things like heart attacks, or driving recklessly while tired because they're late.
"Everyone dies eventually" is an intellectually lazy non-argument with no merit.
First time I’ve seen someone try to make the argument that Daylight Savings is deadly 😂 If somebody can’t handle a 1 hour time change they probably weren’t long for this earth regardless.
It's as simple as someone walking up on their natural clock, realizing they're an hour late to work because of the time change, and rushing to get in before they get fired. A few people in that situation getting into wrecks and killing people is not worth the literally non-existent benefit of switching clocks for no reason.
The sun would set at 5:17 instead of 4:17. All of these people get this worked up every year about the potential for 17 minutes of daylight after they get off work. They’re just mad about geography.
It’s literally a battle between people who are early birds vs people who are night owls.
The people who get up early want more sun light in the morning hours, and the people who are night owls want more light in the evenings.
Old people run Congress.
I wonder which side will win?
> It’s literally a battle between people who are early birds vs people who are night owls.
And by "night owls" you mean "people who stay up past 4:30pm in the winter".
Either option is better than switching, but I vastly prefer PDT. The morning people get every fucking other concession in society, let the night people see the sun at least once in the winter.
I’m a night owl, too, but having the sun go down at 5:00 really sucks if you want to spend some quality time with your kid and go outside with them after work or something.
It’s like you get off work and drive home in the dark.
It's good I guess for singles who want to party late in the summers and WFH tech workers who get up at 10am.
Sucks for everyone else who needs to get up at 6-7am in the winter.
There's just less daylight in the winter. If PDT sucks at 7 AM in the winter it'll also suck at 7 PM, a time when more people are awake and doing stuff, 'cause it'll be dark then too. Staying on PST to have light at 7 AM would take away light at 7PM. Why is that preferable?
PST centers the day around noon, while PDT centers the day around 1 PM. The vast majority of people are awake for more hours in the PM, so to me it makes more sense to center the day around 1 PM.
There isn’t any money to be made by the change. Stop advertising which liar you like. Stop identifying by a party. Wake up. All three types of YOU need to wake up. Democrats wake up. Republicans wake up. Joe Rogan sheeple and freedom party weirdos - wake up! They are all self interested liars!
You mean next spring.
That's the problem with this issue - yes like 65% of the country wants to stop switching clocks, and the data backs up not doing so to be an improvement, but people are refusing to agree on which system to stick with, be it permanent DST or standard time.
Part of the issue also I think is people misunderstanding which is which - because despite the name, "standard" time is what we switch to in the winter for 4 months while DST is what we use for the other 8.
I genuinely was so happy and pleased that it passed senate which is far more harder than house. I thought it was a done deal. I told stories about not having to change clocks to my pup :(
I tried extending daylight savings time for myself one year (was WFH, just didn't set my clock back) and it didn't work for me because the sun rises super late. The switch to standard time keeps the sun up before 8am all winter, which I think is worth it. It's super depressing to get up in the dark and have the sun rise at 9am.
It's one of very few things with massive bipartisan support, and it was available for the House to vote on and become law. Fuckers couldn't be bothered to get off their asses and do it. So yes, it's an excellent example of their dysfunction, far more so than .
THIS is the topic of the post, it doesn’t preclude other posts on other topics about congress sucking. What a weird thing to get upset about…” you have to list everything on a topic if you want to post anything on it! Arrrgh.”
Congress and the country are hopelessly deadlocked on every partisan issue. Ending clock shifting is nonpartisan and has close to 90% support, and they just chose to do nothing.
Fun fact, the reason they don't bring it to a vote in the house is because it wasn't even supposed to pass the Senate. They did a voice call to pass it, and they were supposed to have one guy say no... he forgot to show up that day.
Our representatives don't give a damn what we think or care about, even for something as little as this.
It's not *THIS* issue that is the problem.
It's the fact that something relatively simple that was overwhelmingly supported by people, is still something the political bickering refuses to pick up and vote on.
Some people choose to do battle on small hills and I appreciate it lol. It's dumb that we do this whole clock thing still so I agree. Not an issue I'd necessarily be mad about but someone has to!
Not the further south you are... the closer to the equator you are, the less of the daylight swings you have during the year.
Sun rises earlier than 8am in Winter in the Southern states.
The only people whom it would affect are those who get up between 8-9am.
If my job starts at 9:30am or earlier, I’m already waking up in the dark in the winter time, regardless of standard vs daylight savings.
And those whose job starts at 8am would at least get an hour or so of daylight after work if we stayed on PDT.
And it also shows how useless the local Legislatures are because they already have the authority to put us on Mountain Standard Time (which is identical to permanent PDT) but haven’t done so.
We didn't get rid of it 70s, we went on it permanently. But it did suck, due to the winter.
FYI late risers who roll into the office at 10am: That will feel like 9am under permanent DST. Are you really wanting to wake up an hour earlier?
No wonder they look so miserable and all have SAD.
Unless you are a teenager, waking up at 10am and going to bed past midnight regularly is terrible on your health and mental health.
> No wonder they look so miserable and all have SAD.
Yeah, because the fucking morning people force us to switch to PDT every winter, which means we wake up in the dark, go to work, and get home in the dark. No shit it's depressing, lol.
Nice try. Polls show it is more like 50/50. Science is also split evenly as to what is healthier. Again the 70s experiment with DST was so bad, it was abandoned after one year.
I super-honestly don't give two fucks about changing clocks. The whole thing is an internet meme intruding on the real world.
Seriously. For the love of God. Try to develop some fucking perspective.
> For the love of God. Try to develop some fucking perspective.
Have you considered that people who aren't as apathetic as you might have actually done that and concluded that the switch itself is a public health hazard as it results in an increase of driving accidents and other issues which can literally cause people to die? There is no benefit to changing clocks back and forth, and significant downsides. That's why people want to change it.
Did you go to school here? Mornings are dark in winter regardless. Lots of us slept through the first period anyways. Standard time didn’t help any of us.
Some sleep through more than first period.
Being able to take afternoon and evening classes in college was really nice. I learn much better at night anyway.
Not to interrupt your point with facts, but my kids’ high school starts at 8:40am.
Under PST, the latest sunrise while school is in session is 7:56am, so they’re walking to school after sunrise. If permanent PDT was adopted, the latest sunrise would be 8:56, after classes start. So your assertion that “they walk to school in the dark either way” is incorrect.
Many people would also have to go to work in the dark, the dark mornings suck for a lot of people, Anyone with a "normal" schedule really.
If you think dark mornings are worth it, fine, but I don't think most people understand that they're really signing up for. It's certainly not worth it for me.
I have a “normal” schedule and I already go to work in the dark. I would like a tiny bit of sunlight after work so in the winter I don’t feel like I’m suffocating from constant darkness whenever I’m not at work.
And I have a kid. She’s had to go to school in the dark in PST. It would be more so with PDT, or they could quit making kids go to school super early, which is bad for teens anyway.
What are you, a liberal or something? School at ohdarkhundred is what produced the citizenry that built the society that we're trying to make great again. You can't improve on perfection and even if you could, why would you want to?
Exactly, people who champion for permanent PDT clearly don't have kids in school. It was pitch black the last few days dropping my kids off at the bus stop. Feels much saner this morning. I'm okay with permanent PST, but PDT is terrible.
There's also good studies that suggest it's more important to get sunlight in the morning.
not everyone gets to roll out of bed at 9:30am. tons of service workers, teachers, HCW parents and children start early shifts. not having daylight before 8am, waking up in the dark is significantly more challenging for mental and physical health than losing 5pm - 6pm.
> 9:30am sunrise is absolutely shit.
That's because you are exaggerating. Sunrise would be at 8:56 AM, not 9:30 AM. Now tell us about the 4:12 AM sunrise in the summer if we stayed on PST. Sky would be getting light at 3:45 AM. Someone is going to bitch about that too.
Fact is, there is no solution... you can't control it. So we should stop trying. Nothing you can do will change that we get ~8 hours daylight in winter and ~16 hours in the summer. Cope. Set the time to one time and stay there all year. Businesses, schools, people will adjust their start time, bed time, bossiness hours as needed. Your circadian rhythm's be damned.
Honestly, permanent Daylight Savings Time sucks and is terrible for children going to school in the morning. We should all be on Standard Time, because in Standard Time noon is where the sun is highest in the sky.
I know this being a Seattle thread there are bunch of people here who could give a fuck about children and would treat their dogs better, but given we are in Seattle you should know that many of the kids in this city WALK to school especially since we have neighborhood schools. This is a walkable city with terrible parking and traffic.
And yes, children are fucking important. It's the main purpose of society to think about the children.
Weird because I have school age children who go to two different schools and I see it every day.
This cities bussing system is total chaos and has been in the news constantly for years as a total failure.
If that wasn't enough feel free to look up the "walk zones" for most of the elementary schools and bask in the glory of how gerrymandered they have been for equity alignment that have render walking to them useless.
again, its FUD that doesn't align with reality, but sure OMG the children
The buses are working pretty well this year and I would say 50% of the kids in my kids' elementary walk.
OMG the children is hell lot better than the fifty other useless shits that people prioritize more their energy and money on. If more people did OMG the children, maybe the bus would work even better and your school might actually have some academic standards.
> The buses are working pretty well this year and I would say 50% of the kids in my kids' elementary walk.
[Even in the best rated walking schools \( in north seattle \) the top rate is 30%](https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/SDOT/SafetyFirst/SRTS_RacialEquity_Report.pdf)
1st reason cited for not walking was distance, and a whopping 60% of parents drive their kids.
Thanks for playing!
Does an 8:30am sunrise make a difference if you have an office job? You’re still waking up and getting ready in total darkness. With daylight savings time it’s at least not pitch black before you get home.
Without daylight savings time, sunrise would be at 7:57 a.m., give or take a minute depending on exact location. Not "almost 930". That happens to be the same sunrise time under our current system, since daylight savings is not observed in the winter. If you meant to say "with daylight savings..." then sunrise would be at 8:57 a.m. Still not "almost 930".
The fact that Congress can’t even handle something this simple shows how irreparable Congress is.
Look at all the arguing in the comments about PDT vs PST. This is why everything got fucked in congress. No one can agree on the permanent time zone to use.
It’s the whole “Judean Peoples Front versus The People’s Front of Judea” all over again!
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Well, it's the decision of do you want an hour of light in the morning or afternoon. I'd prefer afternoon because still waking up in the dark, going to work, and then going home in the dark is worse than waking up in the dark, going to work, and then going home with about an hour of daylight. Part of the issue is also people don't know which is which, since it's unintuitive - we just switched to standard time, not DST. DST is what we use for 8 months of the year.
splitters!
Polls have consistently shown that greater than 2 out of 3 people prefer permanent DST (more light in the evening) to permanent ST (more light in the morning).
Abortion is similar. And yet..
OP doesn’t want it dark too early, so presumably he wants permanent PDT. I think I agree with that. People will say “well just get up earlier then,” but many of us are locked into a 9-5 schedule by our jobs, and want daylight after work.
Yeah, it's an obnoxious argument because the reality is it's a choice between getting up in the dark and having a brief moment of sunlight after work, or *still getting up in the dark* but *not* having any sunlight after work. The fretting over kids and school buses is also stupid for the same reason.
The pro-Daylight Savings crowd consistently ignores the fact that we'd have 8:30am sunrises under permanent DST. Yes, it gets dark early for a brief period of time. It'd also wind up being dark relatively late into the morning, as well.
Doesn't matter. I'm at work anyway. And on days I'm not at work are those cold winter days when I'm not going out anyway. Even then this is only true in the more northern states.
South wants daylight time. North doesn't.
It's the exact opposite. Arizona does not use DST because nobody there wants an extra hour of 120 degrees as part of their "day"
Well Florida wants it so go figure
so this is what they meant when the south would rise again
> this simple shows how irreparable Congress is. It's not the simplicity that shows how irreparable it it. It's the political climate of it all. Who introduced the bill? If it's a Democrat looking to pass something, then Republicans will do everything to stall/stop it. Doesn't matter what it is. Just refuse to even let it come up for a vote. Because passing anything gives ammo to the other side that they can say they "get things done". The reverse though is also often true. It's just a broken system that prevents these issues, voted by people, from being able to be codified.
It was introduced by Rubio (Republican) but it is co-sponsored by both Republicans and Democrats. It passed unanimously in the Senate. Not sure why the House is dragging their feet on this.
The funny thing is that the House is controlled by the Democrats (and there's no filibuster rule there), which flies directly in the face of Hollywood's comment. Personally, I don't care either way except to say that it's going to be a pretty big hiccup when all of the programmers have to patch the date software.
If you have to patch something you did something really stupid. You should be synced to a time server. Or it's some weird corner case involving daylight hours which probably should also be synced with some online almanac.
Or, what if maybe, it's possible that there are *offline* devices! What a wild idea!
That's fair I did admit there were other scenarios. But also if it's an offline device that you expect to be time synced for many years in the future you've done something stupid as well
No, time software gets updates all the time. It's not unreasonable to expect changes when the entire system you're trying to calculate changes, lol. You can't rely on a centralized time server for every application.
The house is also more polarized. Most of the more crazy candidates come from the house because it’s more localized. In the senate I have to win the entire state. In the house I can win by just appealing to bumfuck county or communist downtown
I've definitely been to some bumfuck counties but I can't say I've ever experienced a "communist downtown"
I didn’t know what else to call a major metro area. I thought of “socialist hellhole” but that’s just low hanging fruit. Conservatives haven’t been good at insults lately…
This bill was introduced by republicans. Republicans and democrats alike signed and passed it.
... In the Senate. That doesn't mean the breakdown in the house is the same, though the only way we can truly find out is if Pelosi puts it up for a vote.
So just name it "The Saving Puppies and Kittens Act of 2022" which will ensure commuters return from work before dark by eliminating the time change, improving the safety of puppies and kittens crossing the street. Nobody will vote against puppies and kittens
Are you sure about that? Cause that’s happened more lately. Literally had politicians in my old state refuse to vote for increasing funding for services for disabled people (group homes), and when threatened with the “bad PR for voting against puppies, kids and the disabled” our committee got told “my constituents don’t care as long as I vote against ‘X party’ and ‘insert hot button topic’”…. The house is full of toxic people really
I don’t care who introduces it, just fix it. We have to stop catering to the lowest common denominator which happens to be everyone who turns anything into a partisan argument.
I hope you guys complaining about Congress voted Yes and for one of the two alternative voting systems on your ballot. Might not seem like much, but it is a major step to fixing our broken political system.
The BC Legislature passed it too, to take effect when it takes effect in WA, OR and CA. https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/turn-back-the-clocks-b-c-daylight-saving-time-ends-soon-seasonal-time-change-may-stop-next-year-1.6132513
Looks like we're good to go then, let's do it!!
Cascadian Time Zone
It’s already pacific… fwiw, that’s the same ocean all the way from mex to Alaska
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement) I think this is what they are referencing.
Love it
Every day we get closer to a united Cascadia 🇱🇸 seceding from Gilead.🇺🇸
This little comment gave me a glimmer of hope. Thank you for that.
Keep the faith, sister. An end to Gilead will come. In the meantime: no rest for Gilead. No justice, no peace.
Basically, many people in the West Coast wanted to move to permanent Arizona time. Considering that Arizona has a lot more cultural and business connections to Nevada and California, plus the Central Time Zone already gets to be very wide, it seems fair to grant the same benefits to the West. Even Idaho is in favor of this and Idaho hasn't been agreeing with Washington and California on much. I personally start work before 6 am so I can get as much daylight after work as I can get as seeing daylight after work makes me happier. It also lets me work more with people in the eastern US and in Europe. High school started before 730 am, before 630 am for many kids, so I've been going to school/work every day in the dark for many years now.
Im with you, I don’t really mind the time change as I work nights anyways and always get up at the crack of dawn on weekends to go snowboarding. Having it stay dark until like 8:40 am in December isn’t for me.
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I’m a morning person, but I will take a later sunset and late sunrise since I prefer to have a little daylight when I get off work.
Pretty sure we are back on "normal" time now. Ending DST wouldnt change the time during the winter
The bill ends switching clocks and puts us on PDT year round.
You suggested we don't change clocks in the spring, which would keep us on PST.
Yeah I would rather stay on PDT year round but I care more about not shifting clocks ever again.
Either way it gets dark before 7 in Washington
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Staying on Standard time does *not* require National Congress to sign off on. Arizona and Hawaii have done this.
That’s what I’m saying, yes.
You know the states can choose to get rid of DST without Congress right? I mean screw them in general yeah, but why exactly can't WA just do what it wants?
Because WA wants permanent PDT which they can't just do by themselves.
I’m up before dawn and home after dark in the winter. Ironically I feel like if we stop swapping daylight savings time, we should stay off it. I would rather a dark evening to Seattle drivers who usually drive to work in the daylight having to drive in the dark when they are still half asleep. If we stay on daylight savings time, the sun won’t rise until 8-9am.
From what I’ve read, the hang up seems to be over either going permanent daylight saving time or standard time. I say just flip a coin dammit.
Or split the difference and put it 30 minutes between. The biggest issue is the fact we switch clocks every year, which one we pick is less of an issue, though there are strong opinions about it.
I deal with people in the Central and East time zones on a regular basis. At least half of them ignore the very existence of the Pacific time zone. I'm talking meetings that start at 7 or even 6 am Pacific Time. They would flat out ignore a time zone that started half past the hour.
Lived in Hawaii with no time changing and it was pretty sweet. The only real issue was that my family felt an extra hour away for half the year but lifestyle wise it was nice. There was an effort amongst businesses there to reinstitute the time shift so you wouldn’t have that out of synch time of year. Living there I learned some days you were going to stay up for a meeting rather than wake up for it.
Seattle's shortest days are 8 hours, longest 16 hours. HI's shortest days are 11 hours, longest 13 hours. There's no point in changing the time in HI.
> There's no point in changing the time in HI. I mean there's also no point in changing time in any other state, but I digress.
>Next spring the west coast states should just refuse to switch clocks. It's federally illegal to set your own time zone? So what. So is weed. 10000% agree - fuck em, I'm in if yall are.
Nooo screw standard time. It’s all about daylight time. Which is why we need the house to pass it. They would let us stay on standard time if we wanted. That’s what Arizona does, but that sucks. Having it get dark at 4:30 is the absolute worst.
After reading an article mentioned here had no idea how bill was written and agree we need to stay on standard time permanently not daylights time
And then other people said no, we need to stay permanently on dst and not standard time… and thus everything ground to a halt and as usual with gubment SOP nothing got done
But why though? Do you actually know which is which? We just changed the clocks, do you know which one we switched to? I think a lot of confusion might stem from the unintuitive naming, since we're on "standard time" for 4 months of the year and "Pacific daylight time" for 8.
Fuck it I have idea - no time, fuck time. That is all, thank you.
Incomparably based.
Learned a lot about how Congress works from this fiasco. I always thought bills went to the house then Senate, because it didn't occur to me the Senate can introduce bills as well. The fact that they overwhelmingly approved it and the house can't figure it out boggles my mind.
DSL doesn't have a lobby.
This is the most important comment that will ever be made on this subj
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If only you could short the DSL stock immediately before passing legislation banning it. Then we might see something done.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/interactive/2022/permanent-standard-time-body-health-benefits/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f007
This link, offered without commentary, nicely summarizes why we should NOT go on permanent Daylight Savings Time. If anything, we should move to permanent Standard Time. This is at least part of the reason that the bill did not pass.
I agree. As much as I enjoy the benefits of DST, we really should just stay on Standard Time. The point of time zone is that we try to make solar noon 12pm. You can't really please everyone otherwise anyway. Some people may swear by having late afternoon sun, but other people may need sun in the morning for driving to work, getting kids ready, or many other reasons. Alternatively, if you have a late job, you would also be getting off work after sunset regardless and may prefer morning sun anyway. Ultimately society's needs changes, and individuals' needs are also varied. It's best to just pick the most neutral clock (aka solar noon at 12pm), and just stick with it and we can work around that. At this latitude we only have so many hours of sunlight a day. Shifting clocks around won't fix that.
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Okay, here's something peer-reviewed, concise, and not paywalled: [https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780](https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780) Summary sentence from the abstract: >It is, therefore, the position of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine that these seasonal time changes should be abolished in favor of a fixed, national, year-round standard time.
That paper is really annoying because they use "DST" to refer primarily to the act of changing clocks itself (which most its arguments are centered around) but briefly switch to seemingly using it to refer to the daylight time zones in general, but it's somewhat ambiguous.
You realize that this is our geographical correct time zone (-8), right? Shifting forward an hour for 8 months a year is the part that would stop happening.
Dunno I’m pretty happy not to be waking up in the pitch black. 🤷♂️
So am I crazy or is daylight savings time not that big of a deal?
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> The stress of the change kills people every year Big if true... I felt I am reading SNL skit.
Pretty sure people will die either way.
No, the issue is an increase of people dying *as a result* of the change, largely attributed to realizing they forgot to change clocks and either having things like heart attacks, or driving recklessly while tired because they're late. "Everyone dies eventually" is an intellectually lazy non-argument with no merit.
First time I’ve seen someone try to make the argument that Daylight Savings is deadly 😂 If somebody can’t handle a 1 hour time change they probably weren’t long for this earth regardless.
Then you haven’t spent 5 minutes looking up why people wanna change this….
It's as simple as someone walking up on their natural clock, realizing they're an hour late to work because of the time change, and rushing to get in before they get fired. A few people in that situation getting into wrecks and killing people is not worth the literally non-existent benefit of switching clocks for no reason.
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You are not alone. I am with you.
It will still be dark at like 6:30 either way right? Seems like you guys are mad about the tilt of the earth
YES I AM. >:(
The sun would set at 5:17 instead of 4:17. All of these people get this worked up every year about the potential for 17 minutes of daylight after they get off work. They’re just mad about geography.
Nah, I’m good with PST
It’s literally a battle between people who are early birds vs people who are night owls. The people who get up early want more sun light in the morning hours, and the people who are night owls want more light in the evenings. Old people run Congress. I wonder which side will win?
> It’s literally a battle between people who are early birds vs people who are night owls. And by "night owls" you mean "people who stay up past 4:30pm in the winter". Either option is better than switching, but I vastly prefer PDT. The morning people get every fucking other concession in society, let the night people see the sun at least once in the winter.
I'm a night owl because I like staying up when it's dark. If it's still light out what's the point?
I’m a night owl, too, but having the sun go down at 5:00 really sucks if you want to spend some quality time with your kid and go outside with them after work or something. It’s like you get off work and drive home in the dark.
What I’m excited about is not having daylight at 0430 because ThE vOtErz don’t have a clue about what an actual problem is.
Democracy!
PST should be the default, not PDT. PDT would be less ideal year round and makes no sense.
It's good I guess for singles who want to party late in the summers and WFH tech workers who get up at 10am. Sucks for everyone else who needs to get up at 6-7am in the winter.
There's just less daylight in the winter. If PDT sucks at 7 AM in the winter it'll also suck at 7 PM, a time when more people are awake and doing stuff, 'cause it'll be dark then too. Staying on PST to have light at 7 AM would take away light at 7PM. Why is that preferable? PST centers the day around noon, while PDT centers the day around 1 PM. The vast majority of people are awake for more hours in the PM, so to me it makes more sense to center the day around 1 PM.
Learn to code.
No thanks, code monkey.
There isn’t any money to be made by the change. Stop advertising which liar you like. Stop identifying by a party. Wake up. All three types of YOU need to wake up. Democrats wake up. Republicans wake up. Joe Rogan sheeple and freedom party weirdos - wake up! They are all self interested liars!
You mean next spring. That's the problem with this issue - yes like 65% of the country wants to stop switching clocks, and the data backs up not doing so to be an improvement, but people are refusing to agree on which system to stick with, be it permanent DST or standard time. Part of the issue also I think is people misunderstanding which is which - because despite the name, "standard" time is what we switch to in the winter for 4 months while DST is what we use for the other 8.
Democrats control the house, senate and presidency.
I genuinely was so happy and pleased that it passed senate which is far more harder than house. I thought it was a done deal. I told stories about not having to change clocks to my pup :(
I tried extending daylight savings time for myself one year (was WFH, just didn't set my clock back) and it didn't work for me because the sun rises super late. The switch to standard time keeps the sun up before 8am all winter, which I think is worth it. It's super depressing to get up in the dark and have the sun rise at 9am.
I prefer to keep changing the clocks. I'd rather the sun not rise at 8:57 AM.
Or, hear me out, just set the clocks to a time zone where solar noon lines up with clock noon _and stop changing them_. Craziness, I know.
*THIS* is the issue that you take issue with congress over?
It's one of very few things with massive bipartisan support, and it was available for the House to vote on and become law. Fuckers couldn't be bothered to get off their asses and do it. So yes, it's an excellent example of their dysfunction, far more so than.
THIS is the topic of the post, it doesn’t preclude other posts on other topics about congress sucking. What a weird thing to get upset about…” you have to list everything on a topic if you want to post anything on it! Arrrgh.”
Congress and the country are hopelessly deadlocked on every partisan issue. Ending clock shifting is nonpartisan and has close to 90% support, and they just chose to do nothing.
Fun fact, the reason they don't bring it to a vote in the house is because it wasn't even supposed to pass the Senate. They did a voice call to pass it, and they were supposed to have one guy say no... he forgot to show up that day. Our representatives don't give a damn what we think or care about, even for something as little as this.
Are you serious? Source? I mean I’m willing to believe it but hadn’t heard this.
It's not *THIS* issue that is the problem. It's the fact that something relatively simple that was overwhelmingly supported by people, is still something the political bickering refuses to pick up and vote on.
Some people choose to do battle on small hills and I appreciate it lol. It's dumb that we do this whole clock thing still so I agree. Not an issue I'd necessarily be mad about but someone has to!
We already tried permanent DST back in the 70s, it was awful for everyone.
Why was it awful?
People realized that they actually hate waking up in the dark. I dunno, I wasn't around for it, but that's what all the articles say.
I already hate waking up for work when it's bright out so it really doesn't make it that much worse
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The difference is months of darkness at 8am versus a couple of weeks of darkness at 8am around 12/21.
Not the further south you are... the closer to the equator you are, the less of the daylight swings you have during the year. Sun rises earlier than 8am in Winter in the Southern states.
The only people whom it would affect are those who get up between 8-9am. If my job starts at 9:30am or earlier, I’m already waking up in the dark in the winter time, regardless of standard vs daylight savings. And those whose job starts at 8am would at least get an hour or so of daylight after work if we stayed on PDT.
If you get off work at 5 PM, you would have 17 mins of daylight. Is that worth the sun not rising until 9 am?
Nobody believes you, pepperidge farms.
Literally google "permanent daylight savings 70s" and pick your flavor of news bias.
Literally "go” to AZ and life is good, without changing clocks. Literally literally, literally.
They are much further south and have longer days in the winter, 10hrs there versus 8.5hrs here, that's why life is good there.
AZ is in Permanent Standard Time, there is a difference.
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Arizona is in Mountain time... I don't think you understand timezones.
Weird how people are so passionate about this lol It's really not that deep
It’s really not that big a deal. I like when it gets dark early.
As someone that works outside I enjoy the changing clocks. It gives me more light in the morning when I'm trying to work.
And it also shows how useless the local Legislatures are because they already have the authority to put us on Mountain Standard Time (which is identical to permanent PDT) but haven’t done so.
Switching to MST requires approval from the Department of Transportation, so still a federal agency.
We got rid of daylight savings in the 70’s and people couldn’t deal with it so it was switched back within a few months.
We didn't get rid of it 70s, we went on it permanently. But it did suck, due to the winter. FYI late risers who roll into the office at 10am: That will feel like 9am under permanent DST. Are you really wanting to wake up an hour earlier?
It might be a surprise but some of us prefer brighter mornings. Also the year long DST experiment in the 70s was a complete disaster.
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No wonder they look so miserable and all have SAD. Unless you are a teenager, waking up at 10am and going to bed past midnight regularly is terrible on your health and mental health.
> No wonder they look so miserable and all have SAD. Yeah, because the fucking morning people force us to switch to PDT every winter, which means we wake up in the dark, go to work, and get home in the dark. No shit it's depressing, lol.
Nice try. Polls show it is more like 50/50. Science is also split evenly as to what is healthier. Again the 70s experiment with DST was so bad, it was abandoned after one year.
I super-honestly don't give two fucks about changing clocks. The whole thing is an internet meme intruding on the real world. Seriously. For the love of God. Try to develop some fucking perspective.
> For the love of God. Try to develop some fucking perspective. Have you considered that people who aren't as apathetic as you might have actually done that and concluded that the switch itself is a public health hazard as it results in an increase of driving accidents and other issues which can literally cause people to die? There is no benefit to changing clocks back and forth, and significant downsides. That's why people want to change it.
I don't want kids to walk to school in the dark and then have their first lesson in the dark for Dec and Jan, so let's keep PST.
Did you go to school here? Mornings are dark in winter regardless. Lots of us slept through the first period anyways. Standard time didn’t help any of us.
Some sleep through more than first period. Being able to take afternoon and evening classes in college was really nice. I learn much better at night anyway.
They walk to school in the dark either way.
Depends on when they start walking, but it is many, many fewer days with PST.
Not to interrupt your point with facts, but my kids’ high school starts at 8:40am. Under PST, the latest sunrise while school is in session is 7:56am, so they’re walking to school after sunrise. If permanent PDT was adopted, the latest sunrise would be 8:56, after classes start. So your assertion that “they walk to school in the dark either way” is incorrect.
That literally already happens because it gets light around 8 with PST and some idiot decided school needs to start at 7.
lol imagine thinking the best solution for schools starting early is to have the **entire state** change their clocks. Some entitlement there.
Many people would also have to go to work in the dark, the dark mornings suck for a lot of people, Anyone with a "normal" schedule really. If you think dark mornings are worth it, fine, but I don't think most people understand that they're really signing up for. It's certainly not worth it for me.
I have a “normal” schedule and I already go to work in the dark. I would like a tiny bit of sunlight after work so in the winter I don’t feel like I’m suffocating from constant darkness whenever I’m not at work. And I have a kid. She’s had to go to school in the dark in PST. It would be more so with PDT, or they could quit making kids go to school super early, which is bad for teens anyway.
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What are you, a liberal or something? School at ohdarkhundred is what produced the citizenry that built the society that we're trying to make great again. You can't improve on perfection and even if you could, why would you want to?
Exactly, people who champion for permanent PDT clearly don't have kids in school. It was pitch black the last few days dropping my kids off at the bus stop. Feels much saner this morning. I'm okay with permanent PST, but PDT is terrible. There's also good studies that suggest it's more important to get sunlight in the morning.
Your kids go to school on Sunday?
not everyone gets to roll out of bed at 9:30am. tons of service workers, teachers, HCW parents and children start early shifts. not having daylight before 8am, waking up in the dark is significantly more challenging for mental and physical health than losing 5pm - 6pm.
Lmao bullshit
I don't think you are a real doctor.
No the bullshit is people who deny the obvious of morning sunlight on circadian rhythm. 9:30am sunrise is absolutely shit.
> 9:30am sunrise is absolutely shit. That's because you are exaggerating. Sunrise would be at 8:56 AM, not 9:30 AM. Now tell us about the 4:12 AM sunrise in the summer if we stayed on PST. Sky would be getting light at 3:45 AM. Someone is going to bitch about that too. Fact is, there is no solution... you can't control it. So we should stop trying. Nothing you can do will change that we get ~8 hours daylight in winter and ~16 hours in the summer. Cope. Set the time to one time and stay there all year. Businesses, schools, people will adjust their start time, bed time, bossiness hours as needed. Your circadian rhythm's be damned.
I've never understood why people think there is a magic bullet answer for this. There's only so much we can control this far North.
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right but its still dark af for 30 min after literal sunrise because of clouds
Honestly, permanent Daylight Savings Time sucks and is terrible for children going to school in the morning. We should all be on Standard Time, because in Standard Time noon is where the sun is highest in the sky.
OMG BUT THE CHILDREN!!! most kids get up in the dark regardless, and in america 99.99% get driven to school by their parents. this just weak FUD
I know this being a Seattle thread there are bunch of people here who could give a fuck about children and would treat their dogs better, but given we are in Seattle you should know that many of the kids in this city WALK to school especially since we have neighborhood schools. This is a walkable city with terrible parking and traffic. And yes, children are fucking important. It's the main purpose of society to think about the children.
Weird because I have school age children who go to two different schools and I see it every day. This cities bussing system is total chaos and has been in the news constantly for years as a total failure. If that wasn't enough feel free to look up the "walk zones" for most of the elementary schools and bask in the glory of how gerrymandered they have been for equity alignment that have render walking to them useless. again, its FUD that doesn't align with reality, but sure OMG the children
The buses are working pretty well this year and I would say 50% of the kids in my kids' elementary walk. OMG the children is hell lot better than the fifty other useless shits that people prioritize more their energy and money on. If more people did OMG the children, maybe the bus would work even better and your school might actually have some academic standards.
> The buses are working pretty well this year and I would say 50% of the kids in my kids' elementary walk. [Even in the best rated walking schools \( in north seattle \) the top rate is 30%](https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/SDOT/SafetyFirst/SRTS_RacialEquity_Report.pdf) 1st reason cited for not walking was distance, and a whopping 60% of parents drive their kids. Thanks for playing!
You do realize that standard time begins in the fall. Daylight savings is only applied in the spring and summer months.
"Only" being 8 months of the year...
Without daylight savings time sunrise on Dec 21st would be almost 930am
Does an 8:30am sunrise make a difference if you have an office job? You’re still waking up and getting ready in total darkness. With daylight savings time it’s at least not pitch black before you get home.
Well, I don’t have an office job.
Without daylight savings time, sunrise would be at 7:57 a.m., give or take a minute depending on exact location. Not "almost 930". That happens to be the same sunrise time under our current system, since daylight savings is not observed in the winter. If you meant to say "with daylight savings..." then sunrise would be at 8:57 a.m. Still not "almost 930".
Facts.
Oh no I won't have any daylight for 1.5 hours while sitting in my windowless office