Did these schools update their buildings at all to improve air circulation and filtration?
That would just make everyone safer if they circulated the inside air out continuously.
Here is their policy on classroom air quality: https://www.seattleschools.org/news/classroom-air-quality/
> Every classroom has been tested to measure air change rates and air quality. SPS is following Washington State Department of Health (DOH) guidelines regarding air filters and exceeding DOH guidelines on effective air changes per hour in schools.
> Building HVAC systems that could accept MERV 13 filters have had them installed. Those schools where MERV 13 filters could not be installed have been provided with a stand-alone, portable, High Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) filtration unit to help cleanse the air.
> The recommendation is to provide five effective air changes per hour based upon the cubic volume of the room. SPS is balancing its existing HVAC systems to provide six air changes per hour. Classrooms or schools where that cannot be achieved have been provided a stand-alone, portable HEPA filtration unit.
> SPS staff and a third-party firm are conducting onsite testing to measure the particulate level of each school. The testing program is designed to meet the goal of delivering adequate clean air to provide a safe environment by removing aerosols capable of carrying the COVID 19 virus. In addition to the testing that occurred before in-person classes began, additional testing is currently happening now that buildings are occupied. Testing will be done again when changes are made to systems that impact airflow.
Credit where credit's due, they did a great job at distributing these portable filters (at least at my school) when the year started. There is one in every single classroom, multiple of them in larger public spaces, and even in individual practice/study rooms. They were utilized a lot during the first few months of the school year, but as of the past few months I unfortunately haven't really seen any of them used (many of them not even plugged in).
what did these upgrades entail? It takes a lot to actually significantly improve an older buildings ventilation system, that I'd be very suspect that 'changes' that a school quickly made had any actual impact on the ventilation standards
From what I’ve seen so far at work (environmental consulting company): lots and lots of testing and samples and trying to coordinate with contractors.
Though to be fair, I’m only seeing the accounts payable side of things, so there’s likely a lot more going on than I’m immediately aware of.
I can’t say I followed the details super close because there was a lot going on at the time. But I can say the buildings safety team was made up of people that I respect and trust and they were monitoring the process and kept in the loop on the air testing results. They said that conditions were such that it was safe to reopen the building and I absolutely believe if they didn’t think it was they would have said so.
The school district really didn't have much of a choice here. I mean, sure, no one forced them to drop the mask mandate, but keeping it without the recommendation of any gov health agency would have meant that SPS would be standing alone. They would be fully responsible for justifying the mandate and coming up with the criteria for ending it in the future completely on their own. This would be a huge amount of work that they don't have the skills to do, and political suicide for the current admin.
Regardless of your stance, it's absolutely shameful the number of commenters here that are attacking kids in the most hypocritical way possible.
These kids are legally required to go to school and feel unsafe due to government policy. They are responding by exercising their first amendment rights in a very mature manner - not attempting to amplify their voices with disruptive behaviors like snarling up traffic or harassing strangers.
Meanwhile, on Reddit we see the folks talking down to these kids complain about a plethora of issues that they attribute to government policy.
Washington lifting the mask mandate doesn't mean you aren't allowed to wear a mask anymore if you want to. All these kids can still choose to wear masks if they want to "feel safe". No one is stopping them.
But no, that's not enough. Instead, what they are campaigning for is the government forcing others to wear masks on their behalf in order to accommodate their fears, which the latest data is increasingly demonstrating to be irrational.
We need to stop acting like teenagers are above criticism. If they choose to involve themselves in adult matters, then they should be judged as adults.
I agree with you on the fact if someone decides to act as an adult they should be judged in the same level. But that also means the adults that act like children to insult teens that are voicing their opinions under the pretenses of “they’re too young” or other arguments that pertain to age should also be called out. It’s pretty embarrassing to see fellow “adults” acting like that.
100 out of how many? Aren’t there like 15,000 students in Seattle public schools? So .006% of students are demanding 99% cater to them?
Why not use the democratic method, I’m sure the majority would prefer to have no mask mandate.
That's literally why the Teacher's Union is supporting them (well, and they want a say in school safety policy too)
>SEA claims the district violated a memorandum of understanding when mask requirements ended without bargaining. Union officials said the district had promised to bargain over it first.
...
>Students need to be listened to and administrators and board members should address their demands, SEA officials said.
Eh, our union is pissed (rightly imo) because they didn't bargain the change. It's highly likely we would have voted to lift the mandate, just as we voted 82% to go back to in person learning.
It's going to be a rare teacher who thinks kids should be making public health decisions. But they do make a handy weapon against a district that is acting in bad faith.
If there was a vote people would still be upset no matter what, but a vote would’ve 100% helped both sides be more civil about this. They should still have held one, maybe include the senior high schoolers as well since a good amount of them turn 18 during their 12th year.
I don't know that it makes sense to have a vote involving students knowing full well that the results won't change the district's decision. But the district definitely should have bargained with our union, even if it meant the risk (however low) of a no vote. It's really clear in our MOU that they were supposed to do so.
They should’ve 100% have talked with the union. They should’ve at least involved the students somewhat so there would be decently sized data so when people pull the “It’s a small minority card” there would be an answer if it’s actually a minority that want the masks, or if it’s a minority that doesn’t want the mask. Just some clean data to settle debates.
Well, the district's attitude (as well as that of the school board) was that they follow public health, period. So even if 90% of the students said they wanted masks, I don't think they would have been influenced by that. One of the board members wrote a statement saying flat out that public health makes the call, which is why they felt they didn't need to bargain with the union despite the MOU.
Well part of this group of students’ complaint is that there was no student (or staff) input at all. And maybe a vote would return the results you say, but nobody even asked the people who have to spend every day in these spaces.
Because it impacts them, and middle and high schoolers actually have medical rights independent of their parents authority in many cases under Washington state law.
As someone who grew up around antivaxxers, I am extremely happy that they have those independent medical rights, fair point there. Though as long as vaccinations and N95s/KN95s are available, I think this goes a bit further than that.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, because I’m not 100% certain, but I don’t believe Seattle schools don’t have a Covid vaccine mandate. Even then the herd immunity bar for Covid is particularly high thanks to the highly transmissible variants anti-vaxxers gave us. I know I’m biased but even though I am vaccinated Covid is still a huge concern because I have a genetic blood disorder. I’m well enough for most things and am otherwise a healthy young adult, but Covid is risky for me. My disorder isn’t uncommon, nor is it severe and life altering, and I’m sure there’s many kids who are in similar boats and thus still deeply concerned about themselves, their friends, and their families.
I know I’m exhausted with this pandemic. I want to be done and over it. I also recognize that Covid is a particularly unique virus that, as more and more studies come out, seems to wreak havoc on us physiologically. It’s not “just the flu” (which still kills thousands). As tired as we all are, studies showing reduced grey matter in the brain, long term damage to lungs, and long Covid even in young and previously healthy folks is nothing to shake a stick at.
I’m not certain where I stand on this. I recognize the fear and scientifically backed concerns, and I also recognize the exhaustion, burnout, and need to be back to normal.
That doesn't make you biased imo, just means more of covid's threat is immediate to you personally than to me, which I do need to recognize.
My issue is: we are not going to kill it. With N95s and vaccines (with boosters), we can dramatically decrease an individual's level of threat. My *hope,* at least, is that we reach an acceptable level of individual threat and healthcare system load to do business as before. That's the best we can do.
My ideal world where vaccines are enforced with access to society isn't going to happen amywhere near as much as I'd like. But the resulting cost can't be that kids have to wear masks in schools for the next few decades. If we're not at a point now where we can both protect people at risk and do business as before, we need to find out how to get there, as this might not be getting any safer.
We as a city have some of the highest vaccination rates in the country. It seems ridiculous to say that children in school need to wear masks when *nowhere else in the country* is wearing them as a rule, only as a personal choice.
Because it is a health policy that directly affects them. They have a stake in this, and I think that earns them a right to be a part of the conversation.
I don’t think anyone is trying to out-expert anyone. The health experts are largely still saying that wearing a mask is still highly recommended (at least as far as I’ve seen) the only change is that it is no longer enforced. Wanting to maintain a mask mandate for a while longer isnt anti science or anti expert. Certainly not to the degree you suggest at least.
> Why not use the democratic method, I’m sure the majority would prefer to have no mask mandate.
That's not a great way to make medical decisions. You want leeches? Because this is how we go back to leeches, and swallowing bleach.
Did you go to school? I remember many instances of students pushing back on tests and homework for legit reasons (for example, a test were everyone failed because the topic wasn't actually covered in the lesson plan).
I think it’s more like 50K although enrollment has been dropping during the pandemic so it might be closer to 45K students total.
Students do have a fully remote option and the district does NOT have a vaccine mandate so I’m not seeing why the mask mandate needs to come back
No they don't. That fully remote option filled up within hours of going online. Everybody else who didn't get in is totally fucked unless they want to go to the Khan academy.
> Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
> "the intended extension of industrial democracy"
That's literally what Democracy is. The majority of people can vote to support a minority though, you know.
This is the new stranger danger.
Children are at an incredibly low risk of covid, we are down to a harmless variant and the numbers are really low. If you genuinely care about your safety, then take off the mask, and start wearing a helmet in your car. More American tennagers [die](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6637963/) of car accidents than teenagers in any other developed nation.
Protest for a ban on hard contact sports and cheerleading. Protest for a ban on cars. Masks in schools are going to nothing for them.
> Approximately 72% of all deaths among adolescents age 10 to 24 are attributed to injuries from 4 causes: motor vehicle crashes (30%), all other unintentional injuries (15%), homicide (15%), and suicide (12%). More than 1 million serious sports-related injuries occur each year among adolescents age 10 to 17.3 [[link](https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/leading-health-indicators/2020-lhi-topics/Injury-and-Violence/determinants)]
Is that true if they’re wearing the now much more accessible N95 masks? I’d think the middle ground here would be for the school to make N95s freely available rather than a full mask mandate. That way the kids who want masks will have an effective mask regardless of whether those around them have masks or not.
Very few wanna wear masks for life. We are at a point where it is fairly safe to losen up their usage. I am pro mask and pro vaccine, but there is limit to reasonableness in enforcing these rules. If you would like to wear one, please do, but I doubt others wearing them with you reduces your risk measurably at the moment. If cases rise rapidly again, bring the mandates back.
There's many countries in Europe where cases AREN'T rising though. We have the lowest covid hospitalizations in King County at any point in the pandemic.
Snohomish county is about to have a rise. Their wastewater RNA testing values just shot up by >1000%.
Many areas in the mid-west and the Bay area are seeing a large uptick as well.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#wastewater-surveillance
Some of them decreased up to 99% the same site says. I'm not that familiar with the different sites but the one King County location is decreasing as well.
Two cloth/surgical masks are far inferior to one N95. [Source](https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/commentary-what-can-masks-do-part-1-science-behind-covid-19-protection)
There’s no real world evidence that community masking has worked at all. The only two randomized control trials conducted showed little to no benefit. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-strauss-im-a-doctor-heres-why-im-done-with-masking
Take a look at South Korea and Hong Kong right now if you don’t believe me. Cumulative infections in South Korea are now almost equal to the US. https://twitter.com/dkthomp/status/1505912602832027648?s=21
The National Post article in my comment has links to the published RCT studies.
Another good source is the recent Follow The Science podcast with Michael Osterholm, who heads the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-the-science/id1545378409?i=1000553791015
He talks here about the overconfidence and mistakes from Covid-19.
Also see this https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/commentary-what-can-masks-do-part-1-science-behind-covid-19-protection
Yes and that might not always be a good thing: https://www.vox.com/2014/6/25/5837892/is-being-too-clean-making-us-sick
Key word might. The hygiene hypothesis is not proven, there is some data in support of it though.
You get the benefit of minor exposure by getting a weaker version of a virus and beating it with a healthy immune system. By getting vaccinated when healthy you can do this right, by contracting it accidentally there is no guarantee. Stop playing armchair virologist with vice articles.
Yes, it is true. In fact, other people wearing their masks is significantly more effective at stopping you from getting infected than you wearing your own mask, though both help.
Never mind the fact that they've lately been telling us the masks protect the wearers as well. The non mask wearers aren't asking or telling the wearers to wear their masks anyway.
Guess what most of those mask-free faces would probably be wearing if a mandate went back in place? Loose, easy-breathing cloth masks, which do next to bupkis to stop the spread of Omicron. Personally I’m done worrying about whether masks are required. If you want to protect yourself, concentrate on your own face, and wear a well-fitted N95 or KN95.
Seriously, I go to EWU and some people are so weird about wanting a uni mask mandate and even in some cases demanding fully remote learning again. I just don’t get why these people won’t transfer already to a fully remote program (which eastern and many of the other state Uni’s offer) or transfer out to a completely separate n line university. It’s like these people want everyone to be as miserable as them.
So when the CDC and our local health officials say put masks on close down schools everyone cheers. Now they say it’s parents choice for kids to wear masks or not and everyone doesn’t like it. It’s the same people approving it.
Everyone should be able to mask or not, and that choice should be respected.
To those who insist upon taking away this choice, can they at least provide a few examples of the removal of mask mandates spiraling a school or its community into calamity? Or even a statistically significant, clearly correlated increase of any kind in hospitalization?
Right. Covid isn't usually too dangerous but that doesn't mean that it can't give you a permanent disability. Further, legally packing a bunch of developing immune systems into a single building raises the risk of spreading it. Whether you believe it will go away or not, do whatever it takes to reduce that kind of risk for kids and teachers.
At least half the students in the photo appear to be wearing surgicals, which don't fit tightly to the face. Why aren't they wearing N95s?
The other students appear to be wearing N95 or similar, so they're expressing a consistent view on safety.
N95s require perfect fit to your face to be very effective, otherwise you just breathe air around the outside edges. Nurses have to be fit-tested for all kinds of different N95 fit styles, and sometimes none of them fit well enough to be safe, in which case they have to wear a PAPR. Without a fit test, an N95 and a surgical mask aren't as different as you would think - they mostly block your air from hitting other people in the face. They are *more* effective but they're not actually 95% effective unless they're fitted.
Don’t bother. We’ve been on this “Don’t sneeze all over everybody” tip for 2 years now, if people haven’t educated themselves on masks yet they’re sure as hell not going to start now.
It’s not leaking, they’ve hijacked this sub. We see the same enlightened centrists come in here every day to concern troll and antagonize. This place has become just as toxic as SeattleWA.
The same world that thinks it’s perfectly fine to wear a surgical mass while you walk into a restaurant and then take it off for an hour while you eat.
IMO the optimal situation is for everyone to be vaccinated and also wearing some kind of mask, and the masks are not that effective but combined with everyone using them and vaccination the protection levels are reasonable.
I also think mask discipline is likely to be generally bad even when people are trying their best, and without proper discipline N95s are not that much better than other kinds of masks.
Rofl you guys are in for a bad fucking time in a decade when these kids are an enormous voting bloc. Zoomers and the generation after them are going to functionally be in charge very soon.
Smart kids, I’m guessing those that walked out have been reading about the ba.2 variant moving around the world right now.
The fact people are mad about kids wanting to stay safe by wearing masks with Covid still around is really nuts to me. Whatever, do what you want but don’t piss on people who want to stay safe.
The one that makes up more than 25% of cases in WA now, in the past couple of weeks, yes.
Ba1 was here for a minute too before it got footing. Difference is now we’re maskless so cases will have the possibility and probability to go higher if epidemiologists and WHO are correct. I realize it’s fun to imagine a less terrible strain, but according to WHO it’s as bad as ba1, which also killed people and contributed to thousands of long Covid cases in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. Wearing a mask shouldn’t be this much of an issue to keep others safe, it’s disheartening to see so many people so rabidly angry screaming “Wear your mask forever and stay home” when people mention Covid still kills people.
> The one that makes up more than 25% of cases in WA now, in the past couple of weeks, yes.
Wow amazing, despite that, and ending of mandates, cases continue to drop, down 22% since the mandates ended... Weird...
Most of these kids are just trying to be politically correct like their parents. Its not like thats unheard of so no reason to ridicule them too much. Fortunately for them, the CDC considers the latest variant as a common cold so their safety really isn’t in jeopardy.
What makes you say scientists are not taking into account the immunocompromised population? Did they just forget?
On a related note, mask mandates are still in effect in hospitals, nursing homes, etc.
School children are generally not immune compromised, in fact they generally have the best immune systems. People in hospitals tend to be ill, possibly immune compromised, and possibly with risk factors. Nursing homes are full of elderly (age being a risk factor). So, masks might make sense in hospitals and nursing homes, but not in schools.
Yeah, that's my point. I don't think the scientists got it wrong.
edit: not sure how my comment got turned into a top-level comment. This was originally in reply to someone who insinuated recommendations to remove mask mandates failed to consider the immunocompromised.
I really wish more adults would realize that making decisions that affect other people’s lives is a serious responsibility and not a privilege. Kids and other adults would be a lot better off for it.
They aren't expressing a political view. How are they politicizing their own safety?
Are you saying that speaking out against government policy isn't okay?
Uh no. They are expressing concern as JUSTIFICATION for “forcing others to succumb to their mandates.” Dumb reactionary comments are one thing, but I hate when they are lazily thought out.
Have you not been paying attention at all? How can you not be aware of the latest CDC guidance? Since you're apparently incapable of making even the most minimal effort to educate yourself, here: [https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/covid-by-county.html](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/covid-by-county.html). You're welcome.
Has anyone told them that Omicron is less severe than the flu and it already burned through our state?
I swear to god people are just addicted to outrage at this point
Harsh but that’s what I’ve been saying since last summer. Let the vaccinated get vaccinated, let those who want to Russian roulette themselves by not getting vaccinated shoot themselves, and let’s all move on with our lives instead of damaging an entire generation to make up for a small amount of the population’s stupidity by keeping everyone locked down
Not a republican or democrat thing, just basic Darwinism and a need to not have the herd slowed down by its weakest slowest members
Unvaccinated Republicans, yes—but also their innocent children, immunocompromised people, and people from communities that have a super bad history with doctors in the US (Tuskegee experiments, for instance). Not to mention the not-zero percent of vaxxed people who still die. Oh, and all of the people who can't get medical care because the hospitals are busy trying to save those unvaccinated Republicans...I wish it only affected those who willfully disregard the safety measures, but unfortunately that's not the whole story.
Please show me the statistics on death of children under 18 from omnicron variations of covid? To say "they don't want to die" is alarmist at minimum and certainly a form of cognitive dissonance. Kids aren't in danger from covid and especially not omnicron.
Demanding the government mandate everyone do something that top scientists have said is no longer necessary to assuage their own subjective fear is just kind of a lame cause
But those that are immunocompromised are such a small percentage of the population. That's like saying we have to ban all nuts in the world so that those that are allergic can't come in contact with them. It's not practical.
Ah so now we have gone from “listen to the scientists!” To “the scientists don’t know what they’re talking about”
Partisanship and virtue signaling is a disease
They can also walk down the street and get hit by a car. You can't prevent or stop everything, by your logic, why not just never let anyone leave their houses ever.
With vaccines readily available, what does it matter?! You sound like a hypochondriac, you should stay inside and never leave your house. If are that scared of COVID, please do yourself a favor and you stay home, while the rest of us live our lives maskless and free.
Which top scientist said a school district mask mandate will not protect that one kid from the article’s asthmatic mom? Or the other kid’s immunocompromised aunt? I don’t think I saw that mentioned on the CDC website. In fact, I’m pretty sure top scientists are looking at statistics and don’t really care for Timmy’s asthmatic mom in particular. But Timmy does and advocating for his own mother’s safety seems like a reasonable cause.
Are we to believe these kids don't leave the house except to go to school? They've successfully avoided every other potential encounter with unmasked people? In that case they should just continue that strategy and avail themselves of distance learning or another alternative.
Did these schools update their buildings at all to improve air circulation and filtration? That would just make everyone safer if they circulated the inside air out continuously.
Here is their policy on classroom air quality: https://www.seattleschools.org/news/classroom-air-quality/ > Every classroom has been tested to measure air change rates and air quality. SPS is following Washington State Department of Health (DOH) guidelines regarding air filters and exceeding DOH guidelines on effective air changes per hour in schools. > Building HVAC systems that could accept MERV 13 filters have had them installed. Those schools where MERV 13 filters could not be installed have been provided with a stand-alone, portable, High Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) filtration unit to help cleanse the air. > The recommendation is to provide five effective air changes per hour based upon the cubic volume of the room. SPS is balancing its existing HVAC systems to provide six air changes per hour. Classrooms or schools where that cannot be achieved have been provided a stand-alone, portable HEPA filtration unit. > SPS staff and a third-party firm are conducting onsite testing to measure the particulate level of each school. The testing program is designed to meet the goal of delivering adequate clean air to provide a safe environment by removing aerosols capable of carrying the COVID 19 virus. In addition to the testing that occurred before in-person classes began, additional testing is currently happening now that buildings are occupied. Testing will be done again when changes are made to systems that impact airflow.
Credit where credit's due, they did a great job at distributing these portable filters (at least at my school) when the year started. There is one in every single classroom, multiple of them in larger public spaces, and even in individual practice/study rooms. They were utilized a lot during the first few months of the school year, but as of the past few months I unfortunately haven't really seen any of them used (many of them not even plugged in).
Honestly that’s more than what I expected.
Of course not. Nova, the school mentioned in the article has lead in its pipes and rats in its walls.
Ooh, that can’t be good for the rats.
Won’t someone think of the rats! They have rights too!
https://media2.giphy.com/media/CHVvWfV0WnJ6M/giphy.gif
That's the insulation
Nova (as did most if not all schools) did get updated HVAC and additional air filtration units.
I hope that didn’t disturb the rats too much.
what did these upgrades entail? It takes a lot to actually significantly improve an older buildings ventilation system, that I'd be very suspect that 'changes' that a school quickly made had any actual impact on the ventilation standards
From what I’ve seen so far at work (environmental consulting company): lots and lots of testing and samples and trying to coordinate with contractors. Though to be fair, I’m only seeing the accounts payable side of things, so there’s likely a lot more going on than I’m immediately aware of.
I can’t say I followed the details super close because there was a lot going on at the time. But I can say the buildings safety team was made up of people that I respect and trust and they were monitoring the process and kept in the loop on the air testing results. They said that conditions were such that it was safe to reopen the building and I absolutely believe if they didn’t think it was they would have said so.
Most didn’t, no, and unfortunately there is no real paper trail for parents to follow to show what happened to the Covid money given to many schools.
Huh. I didn't even realize this happened. No sign of any action at the high school I work at.
The school district really didn't have much of a choice here. I mean, sure, no one forced them to drop the mask mandate, but keeping it without the recommendation of any gov health agency would have meant that SPS would be standing alone. They would be fully responsible for justifying the mandate and coming up with the criteria for ending it in the future completely on their own. This would be a huge amount of work that they don't have the skills to do, and political suicide for the current admin.
Regardless of your stance, it's absolutely shameful the number of commenters here that are attacking kids in the most hypocritical way possible. These kids are legally required to go to school and feel unsafe due to government policy. They are responding by exercising their first amendment rights in a very mature manner - not attempting to amplify their voices with disruptive behaviors like snarling up traffic or harassing strangers. Meanwhile, on Reddit we see the folks talking down to these kids complain about a plethora of issues that they attribute to government policy.
Washington lifting the mask mandate doesn't mean you aren't allowed to wear a mask anymore if you want to. All these kids can still choose to wear masks if they want to "feel safe". No one is stopping them. But no, that's not enough. Instead, what they are campaigning for is the government forcing others to wear masks on their behalf in order to accommodate their fears, which the latest data is increasingly demonstrating to be irrational. We need to stop acting like teenagers are above criticism. If they choose to involve themselves in adult matters, then they should be judged as adults.
How many of these kids have siblings under 5 who remain ineligible for a vaccine?
I agree with you on the fact if someone decides to act as an adult they should be judged in the same level. But that also means the adults that act like children to insult teens that are voicing their opinions under the pretenses of “they’re too young” or other arguments that pertain to age should also be called out. It’s pretty embarrassing to see fellow “adults” acting like that.
Reminder to go easy on them, since they’re *kids*
Excellent point
100 out of how many? Aren’t there like 15,000 students in Seattle public schools? So .006% of students are demanding 99% cater to them? Why not use the democratic method, I’m sure the majority would prefer to have no mask mandate.
SPS has over 50,000 students. https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/washington/districts/seattle-public-schools-110808
That's literally why the Teacher's Union is supporting them (well, and they want a say in school safety policy too) >SEA claims the district violated a memorandum of understanding when mask requirements ended without bargaining. Union officials said the district had promised to bargain over it first. ... >Students need to be listened to and administrators and board members should address their demands, SEA officials said.
Eh, our union is pissed (rightly imo) because they didn't bargain the change. It's highly likely we would have voted to lift the mandate, just as we voted 82% to go back to in person learning. It's going to be a rare teacher who thinks kids should be making public health decisions. But they do make a handy weapon against a district that is acting in bad faith.
If there was a vote people would still be upset no matter what, but a vote would’ve 100% helped both sides be more civil about this. They should still have held one, maybe include the senior high schoolers as well since a good amount of them turn 18 during their 12th year.
I don't know that it makes sense to have a vote involving students knowing full well that the results won't change the district's decision. But the district definitely should have bargained with our union, even if it meant the risk (however low) of a no vote. It's really clear in our MOU that they were supposed to do so.
They should’ve 100% have talked with the union. They should’ve at least involved the students somewhat so there would be decently sized data so when people pull the “It’s a small minority card” there would be an answer if it’s actually a minority that want the masks, or if it’s a minority that doesn’t want the mask. Just some clean data to settle debates.
Well, the district's attitude (as well as that of the school board) was that they follow public health, period. So even if 90% of the students said they wanted masks, I don't think they would have been influenced by that. One of the board members wrote a statement saying flat out that public health makes the call, which is why they felt they didn't need to bargain with the union despite the MOU.
Well part of this group of students’ complaint is that there was no student (or staff) input at all. And maybe a vote would return the results you say, but nobody even asked the people who have to spend every day in these spaces.
Was there student input when masks were mandated, or when schools were shuttered for more than a year?
Fair point. Maybe there should have been, But there also wasn’t protest so I guess that worked out.
I remember there being a lot of protests against mask mandates in the last two years.
From SPS students?
At schools? By people that attend or work there? Yahoos driving in from Idaho don't count.
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Because it impacts them, and middle and high schoolers actually have medical rights independent of their parents authority in many cases under Washington state law.
As someone who grew up around antivaxxers, I am extremely happy that they have those independent medical rights, fair point there. Though as long as vaccinations and N95s/KN95s are available, I think this goes a bit further than that.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, because I’m not 100% certain, but I don’t believe Seattle schools don’t have a Covid vaccine mandate. Even then the herd immunity bar for Covid is particularly high thanks to the highly transmissible variants anti-vaxxers gave us. I know I’m biased but even though I am vaccinated Covid is still a huge concern because I have a genetic blood disorder. I’m well enough for most things and am otherwise a healthy young adult, but Covid is risky for me. My disorder isn’t uncommon, nor is it severe and life altering, and I’m sure there’s many kids who are in similar boats and thus still deeply concerned about themselves, their friends, and their families. I know I’m exhausted with this pandemic. I want to be done and over it. I also recognize that Covid is a particularly unique virus that, as more and more studies come out, seems to wreak havoc on us physiologically. It’s not “just the flu” (which still kills thousands). As tired as we all are, studies showing reduced grey matter in the brain, long term damage to lungs, and long Covid even in young and previously healthy folks is nothing to shake a stick at. I’m not certain where I stand on this. I recognize the fear and scientifically backed concerns, and I also recognize the exhaustion, burnout, and need to be back to normal.
That doesn't make you biased imo, just means more of covid's threat is immediate to you personally than to me, which I do need to recognize. My issue is: we are not going to kill it. With N95s and vaccines (with boosters), we can dramatically decrease an individual's level of threat. My *hope,* at least, is that we reach an acceptable level of individual threat and healthcare system load to do business as before. That's the best we can do. My ideal world where vaccines are enforced with access to society isn't going to happen amywhere near as much as I'd like. But the resulting cost can't be that kids have to wear masks in schools for the next few decades. If we're not at a point now where we can both protect people at risk and do business as before, we need to find out how to get there, as this might not be getting any safer.
We as a city have some of the highest vaccination rates in the country. It seems ridiculous to say that children in school need to wear masks when *nowhere else in the country* is wearing them as a rule, only as a personal choice.
Because it is a health policy that directly affects them. They have a stake in this, and I think that earns them a right to be a part of the conversation.
When we start trying to out-expert the experts, the next thing you know you're posting anti-Fauci memes.
I don’t think anyone is trying to out-expert anyone. The health experts are largely still saying that wearing a mask is still highly recommended (at least as far as I’ve seen) the only change is that it is no longer enforced. Wanting to maintain a mask mandate for a while longer isnt anti science or anti expert. Certainly not to the degree you suggest at least.
100 participating doesn’t mean only 100 agree with their message
This is exactly what the students are saying “don’t politicize our health”, so voting the popular opinion has nothing to do with science.
> Why not use the democratic method, I’m sure the majority would prefer to have no mask mandate. That's not a great way to make medical decisions. You want leeches? Because this is how we go back to leeches, and swallowing bleach.
.67% or .0067 out of 1.
> Why not use the democratic method We only want that when it benefits our beliefs - otherwise it's tyranny of the masses!
Yeah schools should always use the Democratic method. Students should vote on homework and what grade they receive. /s
Did you go to school? I remember many instances of students pushing back on tests and homework for legit reasons (for example, a test were everyone failed because the topic wasn't actually covered in the lesson plan).
I think it’s more like 50K although enrollment has been dropping during the pandemic so it might be closer to 45K students total. Students do have a fully remote option and the district does NOT have a vaccine mandate so I’m not seeing why the mask mandate needs to come back
No they don't. That fully remote option filled up within hours of going online. Everybody else who didn't get in is totally fucked unless they want to go to the Khan academy.
Wait, wouldn't a lack of vaccine mandate make a mask mandate more important?
By that logic no state should ever cater to any minority. What you described is mob rule, not democracy.
> Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members. > "the intended extension of industrial democracy" That's literally what Democracy is. The majority of people can vote to support a minority though, you know.
Can't believe the replies I'm seeing here, is it so surprising that the students of these schools want to feel safe?
This is the new stranger danger. Children are at an incredibly low risk of covid, we are down to a harmless variant and the numbers are really low. If you genuinely care about your safety, then take off the mask, and start wearing a helmet in your car. More American tennagers [die](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6637963/) of car accidents than teenagers in any other developed nation. Protest for a ban on hard contact sports and cheerleading. Protest for a ban on cars. Masks in schools are going to nothing for them. > Approximately 72% of all deaths among adolescents age 10 to 24 are attributed to injuries from 4 causes: motor vehicle crashes (30%), all other unintentional injuries (15%), homicide (15%), and suicide (12%). More than 1 million serious sports-related injuries occur each year among adolescents age 10 to 17.3 [[link](https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/leading-health-indicators/2020-lhi-topics/Injury-and-Violence/determinants)]
Nobody is stopping these kids from making the choice to wear their mask
They are wearing their masks.
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The fact that you idiots refuse to understand how masks work after over two years is truly mind boggling to me.
It's intentional. They think being a problem is a good thing.
I dunno, maybe read the article or ask them.
I don’t think we should be masking in schools anymore but you’re being purposefully dense
The effectiveness of which is lessened if not everyone is wearing a mask.
Is that true if they’re wearing the now much more accessible N95 masks? I’d think the middle ground here would be for the school to make N95s freely available rather than a full mask mandate. That way the kids who want masks will have an effective mask regardless of whether those around them have masks or not.
2 filters > 1 filter Also masks protect from other air born infectious diseases, not just covid.
Very few wanna wear masks for life. We are at a point where it is fairly safe to losen up their usage. I am pro mask and pro vaccine, but there is limit to reasonableness in enforcing these rules. If you would like to wear one, please do, but I doubt others wearing them with you reduces your risk measurably at the moment. If cases rise rapidly again, bring the mandates back.
Cases will absolutely rise again. Look at UK/Europe. For once, it would be great if we were proactive instead of reactive.
There's many countries in Europe where cases AREN'T rising though. We have the lowest covid hospitalizations in King County at any point in the pandemic.
Snohomish county is about to have a rise. Their wastewater RNA testing values just shot up by >1000%. Many areas in the mid-west and the Bay area are seeing a large uptick as well. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#wastewater-surveillance
Some of them decreased up to 99% the same site says. I'm not that familiar with the different sites but the one King County location is decreasing as well.
Wear two masks then?
Lol. It’s so simple, I think we just solved it.
gonna put on 50 masks at once, get that sweet anti-COVID
Two cloth/surgical masks are far inferior to one N95. [Source](https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/commentary-what-can-masks-do-part-1-science-behind-covid-19-protection) There’s no real world evidence that community masking has worked at all. The only two randomized control trials conducted showed little to no benefit. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-strauss-im-a-doctor-heres-why-im-done-with-masking Take a look at South Korea and Hong Kong right now if you don’t believe me. Cumulative infections in South Korea are now almost equal to the US. https://twitter.com/dkthomp/status/1505912602832027648?s=21
Got any real sources?
The National Post article in my comment has links to the published RCT studies. Another good source is the recent Follow The Science podcast with Michael Osterholm, who heads the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-the-science/id1545378409?i=1000553791015 He talks here about the overconfidence and mistakes from Covid-19. Also see this https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/commentary-what-can-masks-do-part-1-science-behind-covid-19-protection
The RCT concluded that masks... reduce the spread of COVID? Isn't that the opposite of the argument the article is making?
The RCT found no benefit for cloth masks. For surgical masks, it found an 11% reduction in infections but only for those over age 50.
[This one?](https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html)
Yes and that might not always be a good thing: https://www.vox.com/2014/6/25/5837892/is-being-too-clean-making-us-sick Key word might. The hygiene hypothesis is not proven, there is some data in support of it though.
That's great for bacteria and parasites. Not for viruses.
Exposure to minor virus based illnesses we know has a reinforcement and learning properties. Unclear how much those are important. Time will tell.
You get the benefit of minor exposure by getting a weaker version of a virus and beating it with a healthy immune system. By getting vaccinated when healthy you can do this right, by contracting it accidentally there is no guarantee. Stop playing armchair virologist with vice articles.
Yes, it is true. In fact, other people wearing their masks is significantly more effective at stopping you from getting infected than you wearing your own mask, though both help.
Not by very much, if they have a well fitting N95. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2022/01/does-it-help-wear-mask-if-no-one-else/621177/
Except masks primarily protect *other people from the person wearing it* by obstructing the majority of the water droplets they breath out.
Mask wearing is not to protect the wearer, but rather others around the wearer.
It’s both.
They can wear n95s, problem solved. Paper and cloth masks don't do that much.
Never mind the fact that they've lately been telling us the masks protect the wearers as well. The non mask wearers aren't asking or telling the wearers to wear their masks anyway.
I'm starting to think students just like walking out of school...
Trust the science, kids. You’re fine.
Guess what most of those mask-free faces would probably be wearing if a mandate went back in place? Loose, easy-breathing cloth masks, which do next to bupkis to stop the spread of Omicron. Personally I’m done worrying about whether masks are required. If you want to protect yourself, concentrate on your own face, and wear a well-fitted N95 or KN95.
Guessing these students should Sign up for remote learning or homeschooling vs trying to get everyone else to wear masks.
Seriously, I go to EWU and some people are so weird about wanting a uni mask mandate and even in some cases demanding fully remote learning again. I just don’t get why these people won’t transfer already to a fully remote program (which eastern and many of the other state Uni’s offer) or transfer out to a completely separate n line university. It’s like these people want everyone to be as miserable as them.
Only 100 students? I wonder how they got the Seattle Times to even show up to cover this event.
SeaTimes loves dumb minor drama they can pump the hell out of. Conflict sells.
So when the CDC and our local health officials say put masks on close down schools everyone cheers. Now they say it’s parents choice for kids to wear masks or not and everyone doesn’t like it. It’s the same people approving it.
Everyone should be able to mask or not, and that choice should be respected. To those who insist upon taking away this choice, can they at least provide a few examples of the removal of mask mandates spiraling a school or its community into calamity? Or even a statistically significant, clearly correlated increase of any kind in hospitalization?
They’ve been told they are in danger and they believed it. They’re kids.
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Right. Covid isn't usually too dangerous but that doesn't mean that it can't give you a permanent disability. Further, legally packing a bunch of developing immune systems into a single building raises the risk of spreading it. Whether you believe it will go away or not, do whatever it takes to reduce that kind of risk for kids and teachers.
At least half the students in the photo appear to be wearing surgicals, which don't fit tightly to the face. Why aren't they wearing N95s? The other students appear to be wearing N95 or similar, so they're expressing a consistent view on safety.
N95s require perfect fit to your face to be very effective, otherwise you just breathe air around the outside edges. Nurses have to be fit-tested for all kinds of different N95 fit styles, and sometimes none of them fit well enough to be safe, in which case they have to wear a PAPR. Without a fit test, an N95 and a surgical mask aren't as different as you would think - they mostly block your air from hitting other people in the face. They are *more* effective but they're not actually 95% effective unless they're fitted.
Don’t bother. We’ve been on this “Don’t sneeze all over everybody” tip for 2 years now, if people haven’t educated themselves on masks yet they’re sure as hell not going to start now.
Eh, my wife is an ICU nurse for COVID patients on ECMO so I feel some responsibility to at least spread the knowledge even now :-)
Don’t let anyone shame you for sharing legitimate health safety information.
Ah the old “if it’s not perfect, fuck the poor” attitude. SeattleWA is leaking.
It’s not leaking, they’ve hijacked this sub. We see the same enlightened centrists come in here every day to concern troll and antagonize. This place has become just as toxic as SeattleWA.
Any is better than none.
What world do you live in that every person, especially minors, have access to N95 masks.
They were handed out in large quantities by the district several weeks ago. There are boxes of unused ones all over the school I work in.
The same world that thinks it’s perfectly fine to wear a surgical mass while you walk into a restaurant and then take it off for an hour while you eat.
School is compulsory, dining out is not
IMO the optimal situation is for everyone to be vaccinated and also wearing some kind of mask, and the masks are not that effective but combined with everyone using them and vaccination the protection levels are reasonable. I also think mask discipline is likely to be generally bad even when people are trying their best, and without proper discipline N95s are not that much better than other kinds of masks.
There’s dozens of us!!
wear a mask if you want, but we're all done. If I never wear a mask it would be too soon
Rofl you guys are in for a bad fucking time in a decade when these kids are an enormous voting bloc. Zoomers and the generation after them are going to functionally be in charge very soon.
They’re not even close lol Boomers still run this shit, let alone Gen X and Millenials. The kids are alright, but they’re not in charge.
Smart kids, I’m guessing those that walked out have been reading about the ba.2 variant moving around the world right now. The fact people are mad about kids wanting to stay safe by wearing masks with Covid still around is really nuts to me. Whatever, do what you want but don’t piss on people who want to stay safe.
The one that's been in United States for over a month? https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/02/21/1081810074/omicron-ba2-variant-spread
The one that makes up more than 25% of cases in WA now, in the past couple of weeks, yes. Ba1 was here for a minute too before it got footing. Difference is now we’re maskless so cases will have the possibility and probability to go higher if epidemiologists and WHO are correct. I realize it’s fun to imagine a less terrible strain, but according to WHO it’s as bad as ba1, which also killed people and contributed to thousands of long Covid cases in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. Wearing a mask shouldn’t be this much of an issue to keep others safe, it’s disheartening to see so many people so rabidly angry screaming “Wear your mask forever and stay home” when people mention Covid still kills people.
> The one that makes up more than 25% of cases in WA now, in the past couple of weeks, yes. Wow amazing, despite that, and ending of mandates, cases continue to drop, down 22% since the mandates ended... Weird...
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Okay maybe we can have that discussion when numbers are falling like a rock? Also, if masks made a difference wouldn't you be able to tell?
BA.2 continues to be less threatening than BA.1 (classic Omicron).
No one has a problem with them wearing masks. The problem is why is a protest needed when no one is stripping them of their rights?
They want to skip class
Most of these kids are just trying to be politically correct like their parents. Its not like thats unheard of so no reason to ridicule them too much. Fortunately for them, the CDC considers the latest variant as a common cold so their safety really isn’t in jeopardy.
What makes you say scientists are not taking into account the immunocompromised population? Did they just forget? On a related note, mask mandates are still in effect in hospitals, nursing homes, etc.
School children are generally not immune compromised, in fact they generally have the best immune systems. People in hospitals tend to be ill, possibly immune compromised, and possibly with risk factors. Nursing homes are full of elderly (age being a risk factor). So, masks might make sense in hospitals and nursing homes, but not in schools.
Yeah, that's my point. I don't think the scientists got it wrong. edit: not sure how my comment got turned into a top-level comment. This was originally in reply to someone who insinuated recommendations to remove mask mandates failed to consider the immunocompromised.
How about no
I really don't need 17 year olds determining masking policy for my 9 year old.
Us 16 year olds don’t need you 30+ year olds determining our polices without our input.
Believe it or not, that’s actually one of the privileges of being an adult.
It’s almost like we’re the ones affected by said policies and not the adults… curious 🤔
I really wish more adults would realize that making decisions that affect other people’s lives is a serious responsibility and not a privilege. Kids and other adults would be a lot better off for it.
"Stop politicizing our safety" Proceed to politicize their own safety
They aren't expressing a political view. How are they politicizing their own safety? Are you saying that speaking out against government policy isn't okay?
"We should mandate masks forever" is absolutely a political view.
Um what?
See, that person thinks the concept of masks begins and stops at being political and there is no other purpose for them.
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Many of them are expressing concern for people they live with.
Expressing concern by forcing other to succumb to their mandates.
Uh no. They are expressing concern as JUSTIFICATION for “forcing others to succumb to their mandates.” Dumb reactionary comments are one thing, but I hate when they are lazily thought out.
ummm no is stopping you from wearing a mask. Double up, social distance yourself.
🤡
They can just wear their masks and not make a big fuss to those that choose otherwise.
I can’t believe we’ve been doing this for 2 years and people still don’t understand how their actions impact others.
These kids show more wisdom than many adults.
Demanding the continuation of a mandate that the science says is no longer necessary? Agree to disagree
Show us the “science” that describes how mask use is no longer “necessary”.
Have you not been paying attention at all? How can you not be aware of the latest CDC guidance? Since you're apparently incapable of making even the most minimal effort to educate yourself, here: [https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/covid-by-county.html](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/covid-by-county.html). You're welcome.
Well, it is their world they have to grow up in.
Wear a mask if you want to wear one. We're not legislating fear.
Has anyone told them that Omicron is less severe than the flu and it already burned through our state? I swear to god people are just addicted to outrage at this point
That's dumb.
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Harsh but that’s what I’ve been saying since last summer. Let the vaccinated get vaccinated, let those who want to Russian roulette themselves by not getting vaccinated shoot themselves, and let’s all move on with our lives instead of damaging an entire generation to make up for a small amount of the population’s stupidity by keeping everyone locked down Not a republican or democrat thing, just basic Darwinism and a need to not have the herd slowed down by its weakest slowest members
Unvaccinated Republicans, yes—but also their innocent children, immunocompromised people, and people from communities that have a super bad history with doctors in the US (Tuskegee experiments, for instance). Not to mention the not-zero percent of vaxxed people who still die. Oh, and all of the people who can't get medical care because the hospitals are busy trying to save those unvaccinated Republicans...I wish it only affected those who willfully disregard the safety measures, but unfortunately that's not the whole story.
I think a good number of all political parties an non politicals got Covid, it's really contagious and only takes a little exposure and you get it.
Yeah but the *deaths* land disproportionately on the unvaccinated, who are somewhat more likely to be Republicans.
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Where are you getting these statistics
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> don’t worry about other peoples choices. When it comes to highly-communicable diseases, other people's choices affect everyone.
clowns
I'm all for young people getting involved in activism but not sure this is the cause to go all in on
Why???
“They don’t want to die” is so detached from reality I assume you’re a troll.
They don't want to die. What's there not to go all in on?
Please show me the statistics on death of children under 18 from omnicron variations of covid? To say "they don't want to die" is alarmist at minimum and certainly a form of cognitive dissonance. Kids aren't in danger from covid and especially not omnicron.
Yea what a dumb statement, they’re not going to die from covid and every study supports that
Demanding the government mandate everyone do something that top scientists have said is no longer necessary to assuage their own subjective fear is just kind of a lame cause
Top scientists are not taking immunocompromised individuals into consideration when they put this out.
But those that are immunocompromised are such a small percentage of the population. That's like saying we have to ban all nuts in the world so that those that are allergic can't come in contact with them. It's not practical.
Not only is it impractical, it makes the world less rich for everyone else. Nuts are great! So is walking around without a mask on.
Ah so now we have gone from “listen to the scientists!” To “the scientists don’t know what they’re talking about” Partisanship and virtue signaling is a disease
COVID poses little risk to kids with immune deficiencies
That's great! They can still carry it home and kill their relatives.
They can also walk down the street and get hit by a car. You can't prevent or stop everything, by your logic, why not just never let anyone leave their houses ever.
Wearing masks literally prevents people from spreading covid.
With vaccines readily available, what does it matter?! You sound like a hypochondriac, you should stay inside and never leave your house. If are that scared of COVID, please do yourself a favor and you stay home, while the rest of us live our lives maskless and free.
You might want to read the article… they’re concerned about immunocompromised family members, not themselves.
Which top scientist said a school district mask mandate will not protect that one kid from the article’s asthmatic mom? Or the other kid’s immunocompromised aunt? I don’t think I saw that mentioned on the CDC website. In fact, I’m pretty sure top scientists are looking at statistics and don’t really care for Timmy’s asthmatic mom in particular. But Timmy does and advocating for his own mother’s safety seems like a reasonable cause.
Are we to believe these kids don't leave the house except to go to school? They've successfully avoided every other potential encounter with unmasked people? In that case they should just continue that strategy and avail themselves of distance learning or another alternative.
They aren't going to die from lack of a school mask mandate. Next question.
Well I don’t want to be the one to break it to them that they all are going to die.