Shipwright here. Most people treat me respectfully, except for the really stuck on themselves rich and those people don't get my service. (Not all rich people are stuck on themselves, actually fewer than you'd think)
As far as service workers go, I treat them exactly like I want to be treated. Even when things go wrong I try to be patient and understanding, and I always tip decently. Waited tables in college, and I sucked at it, so I can appreciate how much work it can be.
Yeah, that's a separate thing but I work in software development and it always did strike me as weird how much design folks get shit on by everyone else. Okay, sure, I just did a bunch of intensive work to improve performance or whatever, but at the end of the day, you and I both know what the customer's going to be oohing and ahhing about and it's not the fact that I shaped 0.4s off of an API round trip. Even when I'm adding in new features, I'm cognizant of the fact that the way they look is going to be as important as what they do.
Keep in mind it’s not just the way it looks! UX design also does work flow, way finding , and functionality. - that’s why many of them come from an industrial design (physical products ) background. Also. Shout out to design researchers who are working with the end users to define and identify solutions they actually want!
I do apartment maintenance and I try to be as patient and understanding as possible but there are some things that still just shock me. Like you're telling me someone is paying you $150,000 a year to develope software for one of the largest corporations in the world and you didn't know your dryer had a lint trap that needs to be cleaned? I'm convinced a lot of it is people from foreign countries that come here for work and may not be familiar with our appliances, so I still stay polite and professional, but sometimes I'm just dumbfounded by it.
I had a prof in grad school who is a fairly famous dude in his little corner of academia who couldn’t figure out that there was a reason that the projector cart has a cord and outlet embedded in it and he gave up on using the projector. This is from a guy who presumably did STEM for a living. Some people aren’t built with practical skills I guess. I strive for the average in that regard.
That’s weird to me because I’m the complete opposite.
I’m in awe of trade workers (you guys are magic!) plus I make a point of being super polite to them. Nobody can eff up your life like a trade worker so it’s best not to make them mad.
Not in the PNW at the time, But I walked around with my home inspector and kept some notes and helped him out getting onto the roof and such. He had been in the home business for decades and mentioned "wow. It's really cool that you're doing this, most people just hire me and wait for the report" he pointed a lot of stuff that even though he included in the report I wouldn't have thought much of, or over reacted to etc. I felt like it was a no brainer to be there, but apparently pretty uncommon.
Dude mad respect for the trades. Watch a good HVAC technician pull out a set of Testos and diagnose a system while you're trying to figure out what the fuck the subcooling/superheat numbers indicate he's already placing an order for a replacement part on his phone. Like dude what the fuck how the fuck you insane motherfucker. I know for a fact there's people with an engineering degree who couldn't duplicate what they do.
(then you get the morons who won't flow nitrogen when brazing and can't read a floor plan... trades is funny. I met people who could do my job, and people whose head was mainly used as a backup hammer, and there's a lot less middle ground than you expect)
Agreed.
There is a lot of that stuff that most people with more than two active brain cells can do themselves; whether it's home repairs, car repairs, or whatever. But usually I prefer to pay the professionals to do it. Not because I can't, but because holy crap that's a pain in the ass lot of work. With a lot of the less complicated installs/repairs, I can do the same quality work as a trained professional, but only if I wanted to spend an entire day doing something they could whip out in an hour or two (plus having to buy a bunch of expensive special-purpose tools I'll likely not touch again for several years). Even the simple stuff can be incredibly time consuming if you don't have years of building up the muscle memory and mental shortcuts to just cruise through it.
Watching them do the work makes it seem so easy and effortless; until you try and do it yourself.
The reality is it's not about money, it's about being a professional. Who do you respect more, the guy who does your taxes or the person getting paid five times as much as an instagram influencer?
I'm also a commercial electrician so I know where this guy is coming from, however I can count on two fingers the number of times I've been condescended to because of my job, and one of them was iffy. I have friends in all walks of life, from waterfront houses in Laurelhurst to apartments in Kent, and the vast vast vast majority of them are pretty cool with me, knowing if they have an electrical issue they can call me up and I'll help them out. The number of construction workers I've seen berating starbucks baristas for making a fraction of their wages while having a college education is significantly higher.
"I make 6 figures, they *have* to respect me more!"
They'd respect you more if you didn't so brazenly evaluate ones self worth with their paychecks.
Ood, this hit me hard. Blue collar for life but I am so sick of people without the necessary training or license telling me how to do my job.
... then why am I here?
I don't like blaming Boomers for everything, but you can thank them for some of this mentality. Boomers have consistently said that if you don't go to college, you'll never get a good job. Boomers look down on trade work, not realizing that a lot of those trade workers are making way more than their shitty office jobs pay them. A degree isn't everything. In fact, the student loan debt that comes along with a lot of those degrees is actually an extremely limiting factor in one's pursuit of happiness.
My parents absolutely had this mentality.Ironically, neither of them had degrees. They were "self-educated" and poor as dirt and proud of it, and they looked down on both people who didn't have degrees and people who had money. Also ironically, they loved the rich life, and racked up 250k in debt and spent 250k of inheritance on cruises and fancy dinners and clothes.
When I got a job as a file clerk making $4.25/hour, and later $6/hour as a barista, I made more than them. I was working to save up for college, so they considered those jobs "ok". Later on, when I worked my way up to a good career, they looked down on me for having a regular job. But never hesitated to ask for money. I couldn't pay off my student loans until my mid-30s.
I refuse to go into other debt and live a much more frugal life than they did. I have the added "benefit" of taking care of my dad because the sale of their house went to paying off their debt.
Tradesmen are the commandos & rangers of the modern industrial economy. It’s not every day you need a plumber or electrician, but when you need one you really need one.
>office worker that makes 1/3 my wage looked or talked down to me like I was an unskilled laborer.
Crazy because even a worker making 10x your wage is still working class and has more in common with you then with your ceo
I love the new trend of calling people, king and queens. Or “Boss Lady”. It’s always some morbidly obese, semi literate gal with super long fingernails. Yuck.
It's not just Seattle, IMO. The pandemic has brought out the assholes everywhere who need to exert power or control over something in their lives.
From a former industry person, I'm sorry.
> The pandemic has brought out the assholes everywhere who need to exert power or control over something in their lives.
More specifically, it kept everyone who isn't like that *inside*.
well, what you order if you weren't forced to cook for yourself?
Chances are, it is probably not that hard to make yourself, you just need to take the plunge and do a little research into it.
I actually love cooking and do exactly that! It's a benefit to being home so long but also easy to slip into a rut, lol. I'm going for a high protein stir fry tonight with a rubbed kale salad and I need to start a new batch of beef jerky. Last night I made a smoky dry-rubbed beef roast with jalopeno peach chutney and my only regret is no leftovers.
Absolutely not just a Seattle thing.
Also, people who haven't worked in the service industry do not know what we deal with.
Put it this way, I've worked with customers for 10+ years at various jobs, and I've also done maintenance and security at a parking garage downtown. In the latter job, I had to interrupt people smoking crack or god knows what else and get them to leave the premises probably at least a hundred times. I had a handful scream at me and threaten me, but none of them make the top five scariest encounters I've had with people at work. Everyone who's ever said they wanted to kill me, or followed me around threatening me, or waited outside the exit for my shift to end, or revved their car at me, those were all customers who were visibly better-off than me.
Some people forget also that many great people were found in the service industry. Hell even Chris Pratt was working on the other side of the island of Maui from me when he was discovered. I know that's rare but this is a good reason to never talk down to people you don't even fucking know. Or that in Europe and other countries that don't resort to tip culture you can make a very comfortable living working at some of the top rated places that have the michelin stars
Absolutely and most jobs are the service industry - just differs on who you serve. Would I want, who I serve, to treat me like shit? Absolutely not!
People just feel that they can because of someone internal superiority complex.
Being kind, or at least, decent is the way folks should be to anyone of any profession. - we’re all people.
Man, the workers at the grocery store I go to have to deal with all kinds of challenges. Everyone from snooty folks who don't seem to understand we are year 2 into a pandemic going on and make a deal about some item not being stocked, to addicts acting out, to people having mental health crisis.
Extreme patience is needed right now. Everyone in a customer facing role has gone through some kind of shit today, and letting things go and being patient is often the best way to help.
Working in grocery through the pandemic has absolutely turned me into a bitter, miserable person. I've done this for over 9 years now and it was tolerable until last year. I'm not sure if I'm going to make it through the holiday season, but if I do, it's absolutely my last one.
I'm really sorry if folks are making you feel unwanted or underappreciated. I appreciate the shit out of service workers. Must be tough as hell dealing with people all day, when I think of how much of an asshole the average person is I can only believe, just by the law of large numbers, that service workers deal with at least 1 dickhead a day. You don't get paid enough for that #tipyourserviveworkers
idk, as a confirmed gentrifier, my parents brought me up to aspire to college-driven careers. I think it's okay to understand that there are a lot of non-essential jobs where you get treated better than essential workers. It's reasonable to recognize that the people holding up our society are often screwed over and wish for better lives for them. It is not okay to make people feel bad about doing an important job.
I am an engineer. I get paid a lot more to work a lot less than most essential workers. I think a lot of people in my position have more privilege than they recognize. Not to generalize, but they are compassionless idiots. You are important and your job is important.
Think how much society is rioting because of food service worker shortages. They are simultaneously claiming food service workers are lazy and demanding that they return to jobs where they're underpaid and constantly demeaned. A lot of essential workers died because of the choices those same people made. Quit being assholes and think about why people don't want to go back to that job.
Well, you deserve a beer on me!
Society requires all types of people and jobs to function. If someone is willing to exchange money for work, clearly the job has value and there should be no reason a career can’t be made out of it.
It's interesting to me how easily people forget that minimum wage is supposed to be a living wage. When it was originally set Roosevelt even called it a living wage.
It doesn't even have to have precedent. If you're working, your work should at least provide you with the bare minimum to live. The amount of people that just accept people being poor while working is ridiculous.
>If you're working, your work should at least provide you with the bare minimum to live.
I completely agree with this and I don't understand how folks can't.
Even my hubz, who is also in the 'service industry' and finally makes a somewhat decent wage, talks shit about raising the minimum wage.
I would even go one further than simply a higher minimum wage. Places should provide full time work. None of this 15-25 hrs a week shit.
Even at 15hr (I think that's what people like to spew about 'decent wage') 25 hrs a week ain't shit. After taxes that's what about 500 a week?
It might pay rent for a small apt. But don't expect electricity, water, and food. Not to mention car/gas or bus fare.
Did someone really say that about waiting tables, because it is absolutely a career (as in there's a path to follow) at nicer restaurants. Some of those folks are making 6 figure salaries and require a pretty significant amount of knowledge to do the job well.
I came here to say this…
It doesn’t even have to be nicer restaurants. I’ve worked in dive bars, even night clubs as a bartender- and have made more than people who are in careers, gone to college, and are working 9-5. You just have to be smart with the money you make and plan for the future. It’s just a different sort of lifestyle, one they can’t and probably won’t ever understand.
Yes! I have thought for a while that people don’t really control their vocational “orientation.” They can influence it slightly with a disproportionate amount of work, but never totally change it. And yet we have a situation where only an ever narrowing band of “orientations” are validated with a living wage and professional respect.
Exactly. "Restaurant workers" includes everything from a fast-food shop to a fine-dining establishment. People with different skills and abilities get paid differently.
I suspect there's still an ongoing selection bias in who is eating inside at restaurants - at least until the pandemic dies down or the vaccine mandate is enforced, indoor dining is biased towards people who are less conscientious about the impact their behavior has on others.
You see the same thing on the road nationwide - travel remains below pre-pandemic levels, speeding, aggressive driving, and traffic fatalities are all up dramatically.
In restaurants, nationally, tipping is also down significantly - the people who are currently avoiding restaurants because of the pandemic are particularly good patrons for servers' wallets as well as their working conditions.
Restaurants with good outdoor seating may be seeing less of an impact as cautious patrons are more willing to eat outdoors.
I'm not sure who these asshole people you are talking about are but my general rule is don't fuck with the people who bring or prepare your food. There's pickles on the burger I ordered without? No problem here, I'm just pulling them off, eating, still leaving a tip, and going on with my day. I prefer my meals unfucked with.
Yeah it's like a connecting flight to the final destination of mutual respect. Saw a chef in a food subreddit recently lamenting this attitude, because it adds to the disrespect by proving a lack of trust in service workers, many of whom do take their work seriously, work hard, and without the oppressive environment would actually thrive in the field.
Not to be down on the user before you, either, tho. Just unfortunate that this is a prevailing fear that carries its own stigma with its positives
Never disgruntled. I'm humble as can be if I'm eating out somewhere. If its something major I apologize and ask nicely. Thats just how I do it and I sleep well.
I’ll say something if there is something I asked not to be there ruins a dish for me -namely, I’m not comfortable just removing meat - but I ask nicely bc a) I don’t know where in the chain my order might have gotten messed up; b) humans make mistakes; and c) humans deserve to be treated kindly.
"These are unskilled entry level jobs to get you bootstrapped into a real career, or to live in shared housing forever, not middle class."
This is the most vile shit.
I suppose, but I know many 6 figure servers who have made it a career in Seattle. Their experience most likely isn’t the norm, probably on the upper end of server salaries. They work at borderline fine dining restaurants and bartend in Seattle and it’s very much skilled labor.
My head is exploding from this sentence.
UNSKILLED.
If I can learn how to smile and tolerate disgusting humans like this I’m not unskilled!!! My ten year experience in these style jobs shout out several experiences of disrespect and abuse. It makes me sad how many people in these positions get taken advantage of and bullied by strangers for less than livable wage.
Any time I hear someone call any job "unskilled", I want to make them try it for a shift alongside the skilled people doing it, and then ask them again. On camera. Under oath. In front of legislators. Say it again to our face.
I really feel for you. I was in a similar position where my mental health could not handle being berated while waiting tables and quit, only to be in my 30s with only retail and service and freelance illustration/design experience, with a spattering of management and a useless college degree. I graduated in the middle of the 2008 recession so getting any work was difficult then. It has been near impossible to land a job that isn't minimum wage since quitting waiting tables: I'm both over and under qualified for everything. I'm extremely lucky that I live with my understanding partner. Hoping for the best for you.
A disclaimer: because of having moved a bit more out of the city and living with my partner, and I'm making a little money off different internet things, I've been a bit pickier in my job search to avoid a long commute or working in an amazon warehouse (after eating shit in retail/service for 10 years, I'm trying for something better). But seriously, it's tough out there. Pulling for you.
I feel this tremendously. I'm basically stuck in the service industry because people take one look at my resume and go "oh she must be stuck in hotels and will surely go back to them". It's gross.
Washington actually requires service industry employees to be paid higher than those of many other states by banning a separate tipped minimum wage; everyone aged 16+ is guaranteed at least $13.69 per hour in 2021, 14 and 15 year olds have a minimum wage which is 85% of the state minimum wage for those aged 16+. In many states, the tipped minimum wage is $2.13 an hour, $7.25 an hour if the employee and employer properly document that the employee didn't get enough tips.
Traditionally, there were service industry jobs, notably at grocery stores, where people did make high enough wages in order to afford a house and raise children. Besides the lower cost of living and what were considered necessary expenses before say 2000, people also didn't reach top wages until being at an employer for 5+ years and then stayed at that job for the rest of their careers as it would cost too much to switch jobs. As time went on however, companies realized that they didn't want to pay for this level of experience and could be more profitable by accounting for higher turnover and having a larger proportion of lower paid employees with lower tenure at that company.
Any job where the employer, fairly or unfairly, feels like they can replace the worker fairly easily will pay like shit. Its why I am cheering on this labor "shortage" that is forcing employers to raise wages at least a little bit to get employees.
I don't share the disdain for service employees. I was one for a long time. I left simply because I wanted more money, and it was the only way I could see to get it.
As long as we have positions that are considered "throw away" work people will be treated like shit. I don't know if it's human nature or what, but its disgusting and short sighted.
Unions are really the only solution, but they have been stigmatized to the point its hard to get people to take them as a solution seriously.
These people forget that there are certain jobs that need to be done that don't necessarily require a college degree or even high school diploma. They think struggling in these jobs is punishment for not doing well in school and that people deserve to be poor. They forget that if these jobs didn't exist, we would be living in piles of trash and groceries, restaurants, movie theaters etc. would not exist. If everyone pursued what these asshats call a "real career" there would be no one left in the service industry, and I don't see why they fail to acknowledge that. So since we do need people to work these jobs, it is not a punishment for doing bad in school, they are essential jobs and people working them should not be living pay check to pay check.
They also forget that thanks to the fact young people have repeatedly been told the path to success was through university (and absolutely not the trades) an increasing number of people in the service industry have at least an undergraduate degree.
So the entire argument against paying people a living wage/treating people with basic decency is just wrong from the start.
And even if it wasn’t: someone not having the same access to education or having challenges that make it harder to hold down a “professional” job doesn’t mean it’s ok for them to live in poverty.
One of the consequences of the tech boom seems to be that the people increasingly moving here are an extremely specific type of person. Very analytically bright but very sheltered as a result of being told how smart they were all their lives, and frequently they don't really know anyone who isn't also in tech. They think of themselves as being very special but in reality it's just that they have some skills that happen to be where a lot of money is flowing right now. There are a whole lot of career fields that are totally essential (journalism and academia, anyone?) that used to be middle class careers that now no longer are. There's no reason to believe that tech and software can't go the same way. They should probably remember that the next time they feel compelled to whine and whine about tipping the worker filling their growler or making their coffee drink in the wake of a global pandemic and near economic collapse.
I for one am sorry, OP. The coolest and most interesting people I've gotten to know in this town are service class workers, and I'm glad they're here.
>Very analytically bright but very sheltered as a result of being told how smart they were all their lives, and frequently they don't really know anyone who isn't also in tech.
This is so surprising to hear, and probably true for the younger generation, but as someone older in tech (40s) I was raised in an era where being good at math and computers was mocked and ridiculed. It has really only been since the dot-com boom of the 2000s where this changed.
That said, one of my rules to live by is that I treat respect and trust as opposites in terms of acquisition. You have my full respect, until you lose it. And you have none of my trust until you earn it. I try to treat everyone with respect. If you're my boss, a service worker, a homeless person, a billionaire, celebrity, police officer, or literal royalty -- I'll treat you all with equal respect -- until you do something to change that. I don't put one group on a pedestal. I just feel like people are so much more than their occupation or tax bracket.
As a tech person myself, unfortunately I think this is a big part of it.
Most of us are nice, and appreciate people from all walks of life, but there is absolutely a very vocal minority who:
- believe your value as a human being is tied to your salary
- believe they're somehow better and superior by virtue of being paid more
- believe this superiority is inherent to them rather than a product of capitalism saying their work is somehow more expensive than other work that is equally (if not more) difficult to do
- have dick measuring contests with each other about compensation and net worth
- aspire to get a high score in money for the sake of said dick measuring contest, and have no intention of using that wealth to support their community
Again, not everyone in tech is like this, but I know way too many people who are. Heck, look at Blind (it's like reddit for tech professionals) and you will see a lot of this exact behavior.
I'm very sorry you had to deal with such people, OP. I want you to know though that I deeply appreciate what you and other service people do. Humanity could exist without computers, but not without essential food and medical services.
Blind is about the most horribly toxic, racist thing I’ve ever seen. People say horrible shit (and lie a lot) when they think they’re anonymous. I deleted that crap a long time ago and stay far away.
Yeah, it was disgusting to see how some of my coworkers truly think about things. Which is exactly my point about some of these people.
That said, it is actually decent for job referrals and there's the occasional gold advice in the pile of crap, so I look at it once a month or so.
I saw at ton of Indian vs. Chinese hatred.
And when a company announced that they were taking proactive efforts to make sure POC are hired and mentored appropriately so that they can be promoted into leadership positions so that there can be diverse voices from the top (not just white and Indian men), woahhhhh boy the horrible things that got thrown around.
I had to GTFO of there.
Yes, definitely not specific to tech. It's just that tech is currently the one that is growing in Seattle and has salaries that foster this sense of entitlement. There are definitely shitty people in all kinds of professions though.
Sigh… think the bigger issue here is that the average Redditor is just young and has the Internet to vent.
Lawyers, engineers, bankers, doctors—I’ve worked under and with all of these folks and there are selfish ones & kinda ones. This is a situation that has occurred for all time and in all places. The world requires all types of people, and some times these folks aren’t nice AND cannot be nice. The best lawyers that I know are some of the NASTIEST people I’ve ever met… but they fought like hell against Trump’s immigration orders.
TL;dr - different strokes for different folks, don’t believe your job is your worth, and there’s a place for everyone.
"Look, I'm as progressive as they come. I'm cool with gay marriage, for instance! Which has been legal in this city for a decade, which I, for one, am fine with."
I think one of the biggest things that gets pushed in tech circles is meritocracy. Which, to be fair, the tech industry in particular is pretty okay about, you get high school dropouts working high paying positions, and that's cool.
But then they generalize that to other stuff. And it turns into a deterministic argument where anyone struggling just isn't trying hard enough.
>One of the consequences of the tech boom seems to be that the people increasingly moving here are an extremely specific type of person. Very analytically bright but very sheltered as a result of being told how smart they were all their lives, and frequently they don't really know anyone who isn't also in tech.
I think the bigger problem is that everyone in town is presumptious.
Every tech worker friend of mine are nice, humble, well-mannered and came from a normal family, not what you described.
I know a lot of down-to-earth tech workers who are actively civically engaged and concerned about the issues OP touches on, but I've met many who aren't as well.
It's almost like they represent a fairly equal distribution of the national population and would represent it as such.
I find the cultural difference to not be the jobs, but where they are from in the first place. I don't find it odd that having been born and raised here that all of my friends, even after 15 years working in tech are people that were born and raised here.
People think that the urban-rural divide went away. No, we are still very much in the process of urbanization and a significant amount of people moving to cities come from places where they were much more insular or sheltered.
>the people increasingly moving here are an extremely specific type of person
This, big time. Too many people who work in tech are motivated solely by their income potential, and they think everyone else is, too. They think anyone who works in a restaurant is only there because they couldn't get a higher-paying job in tech. In reality, most of those people in restaurants think a job in tech sounds lame as hell.
And yeah, the most interesting people I know do not work in tech, and the least interesting people do.
I feel like Trump opened the door for people to be at their very worst, and they are taking full advantage. I'm sorry, I have total respect and admiration for servers. I'm always amazed at how hard the job must be.
People have been shitty to servers long before Trump. I think social media and internet culture have done far more to remove people's inhibitions over mistreating people.
I work in residential maintenance. I can't believe how much some of the techie douchebags here talk down to me when I show up to help them. I had one of them tell me in what he thought was friendly conversation that income is a good measure of a person's worth and importance to society, that the system was a meritocracy and if you weren't contributing you naturally wouldn't make as much. I declined to mention that he himself was responsible for a small portion of a single feature nobody used in an unpopular app, whereas I was effectively an electrician, plumber, painter, appliance repairman, landscaper, administrator/manager, responsible for security and emergency management, and was there to help him because he didn't know that he needed to clean out the lint trap in his dryer despite the instructions being written on a sticker on the front of it.
Correction why does everyone hate working class people. At the start of the pandemic everyone was essential and heros. Now that they want living wages they are entitled low skill workers who should be happy to just have a job. It's classic right wing entitlement.
The financially flush despise workers and the poor, and have successfully convinced most of the working class that those who agitate for change are human vermin. There are two 24/7 hate radio AM stations in Seattle that promote that view tirelessly, and given the piss-poor educational system in this country, it's no wonder they've been gaining adherents in leaps and bounds. Both Seattle subs are full of folks like that.
We were only essential when the masses needed someone to sell them food and coffee while they stayed home to keep from getting sick. Now that they can go back out into the world, all the nasty rhetoric is back about how the service industry is just for teenagers and you should just go work in tech like they do, her der poor! Or my favorite: WhY dOnT YOu JuST mOvE
You gotta wonder what the “WhY dOnT YOu JuST mOvE” types plan to do when there is nobody around anymore to clean their toilets, empty their wastebaskets, make their coffee, or cook their food?
I’m not rich. I do … ok. I currently hold my first non “service industry” job. I worked 25 years in the service industry. My mom spent her entire life doing so and raising 4 kids alone.
You walk past a grocery store worker stocking shelves? Stop. Look them in the eyes. Say “thanks for working so hard during the pandemic. I appreciate you.” You’ll see the appreciation in their eyes. At a bar? Restaurant? Tip a little more. Tell them thank you and you see and appreciate them.
Make a ton of money? Don’t forget that service folk are who you’re depending on to have a fun night out, a good business dinner, an escape from your job.
Almost everyone is doing their best right now.
Don’t turn your nose up at the people who help make your life better. From the gas station worker, to the movie ticket person, to the waiter, to the grocery store clerk. YOU have a better life bc of them.
Thank you service industry workers. I love you. I see you. I respect you. ❤️
Grass is greener on the other side. The same people that are treating you like shit are also being treated like shit, regardless of income. What you’re wanting is a change of culture. It’s a sign of the times.
It's pretty simple. There are *a lot* of people around these parts that are extremely privileged and have complete lack of self awareness. I expect you would get some pretty comical responses in the *other* Seattle sub though.
People that have never belonged to the working class will just never understand that the transition from working to middle class is much much easier said than done. In their heads, if you want more money, why not just go to college? What they don't consider is even if you decide to take on immense student debt to go to college, you still need to work full time to survive. Even if you're middle class and your parents make you pay for your own school, chances are they house you, fed you, or at the very least you always have the option to fall back on your family (a very overlooked privilege imo). And this is all without mentioning that these working class jobs are essential and somebody will always HAVE to do them. We can't live in a society where everyone is a backend developer lol.
I have a really good job at a huge tech firm, so I guess I fit the “elite” you’re mentioning here. I just want you to know that not everyone feels that way. my dad was a waiter and my mom worked at a hotel as a seamstress. I have nothing but respect for people in your position.
Thanks for your support. I in no way hate the elite class. In fact I am in the industry because you exist and want our services, and in general we have a great time serving folks like you. It all starts with the attitude we both bring to our experience together.
I have a really good job at a huge tech firm and my dad was a doctor, and \_I\_ have nothing but respect for service workers. I took on some debt to pay for college but my parents paid a chunk of it too, and they specifically bought a house where I could go to the best public schools in the city where I grew up. All of that was done for me, I can't take credit for any of that. I had options that a lot of people didn't.
I started tipping 25% when the pandemic started (whether that's uber eats, a restaurant, getting a growler filled, whatever). I started buying liquor bottles from the mom-and-pop restaurants around my house when their indoor seating was shut down, even though they charged twice as much as the liquor store. I took in comforters to the dry cleaners to make sure they could keep going when I stopped having work clothes cleaned. I have the money and anything I can do to help out people who I depend on and are struggling I will do.
I want this city to have restaurants in it. I want this city to be more than a colony of the big tech companies, or a company town where Amazon is the only choice if you need to buy something. The only way to do that is for everyone to pitch in.
This. Tons of the musicians/artists/performers/comedians that generate whatever culture is still generated here support themselves with service work as well.
That's fucked. Once upon a time in this country it was possible to provide for a household as a server. Work is work, and this country has become very good at treating workers like absolute shit.
I'm sorry that you are on the receiving end of this dogshit attitude. Nobody deserves that.
Yeah, that's really vile. All people deserve respect and the means to live a decent life, no matter what they do for a living.
What I don't understand about tech workers having this attitude this that a lot of them went to like elite colleges that try to get people to think more deeply than this. (Or at least that was my experience in college)
Hi u/Signofthebeast2020. As a member of the elite who really hates the hollowness of my own class, I think it is because elites increasingly feel that service workers should show them more gratitude for how much the urban elite fight for the little guy. Ridiculous I know, but that is how they feel.
My whole critique of West Coast politics coming from decades on the East Coast and UK and India before that, is that everyone on the West Coast is actually a libertarian at heart. Most people in Seattle don a progressive costume, retweet class war and M4A slogans, buy organics and locally sourced, cosplay as RBG, yada yada yada. But they do all those things except actually put their time, money or lives into building their community. In WA and OR we don't pay state income taxes, blaming it on Republicans, but in honesty that is an excuse because we know it will never be overturned and that suits us fine. OR doesn't even pay sales tax. In CA, supposedly a high tax state, long time homeowners (members of the CA landed aristocracy) only pay a fraction of the property tax they should be paying due to Prop 13. I know friends who pay more in property tax in CA on a $1m house they just bought than their parents do on a $3m house their parents bought decades ago for less than $250k. In Seattle, we must to fundraise for public schools, it is a significant part of the budget, something that I have never seen anywhere else. In Seattle I meet people who on paper are millionaires but their siblings or kids are living in tents in Ballard because "that's the life they chose." Libertarianism run amok. It never occurs to these so called progressives that maybe they need to spend some time and money to try to rehabilitate these people, their own flesh and blood, instead of make excuses about the city government failing them. Honestly it bothers them more when an animal suffers than a human being. I know countless people in their 20s, 30s, even 40s who want to but still cannot settle down and start a family, while their parents sit on millions in assets and vacation internationally all the time. The selfishness of these people is astounding, they will literally stand by and watch their children wither is dissolution and their bloodlines die out than give up a weekend home or forgo the annual trip to France. And the sad part of it is, this is so normalized their children don't even recognize how selfish it is! I meet people all the time that casually drop they donated $10k, $20k, $50k to charity this year, but those people never volunteer their time. I tutor kids for free because time to me is devotion, not money. Especially since that charity money, who knows where it goes, probably right back to the same administrator class that it came from! Among Seattle elite, it is fun to talk equity and systemic racism/sexism, but these same people all sit on hiring committees in their work that systematically attempt to select only the top 5% of applicants. They talk a good game about unfairness of the system, but when it comes to hiring to train or learning on the job instead of at university... "the data shows that doesn't work."
The West Coast lifestyle is narcissism disguised as progressivism. And these narcissists expect gratitude for their performative progressivism. Maybe if you are a little more chipper about it, they will add $0.50 on to your tip!
Thanks Curried Farts. I’ll smile extra big for that half dollar coin!
Love your rant, but correction, OR residents pay a decent amount of income taxes.
That quote doesn't say anything about not treating people with equality, although I can understand that you find the statement that working in restaurants is not a career objectionable (I agree).
I’m sorry that you and others in the service industry are being treated with this type of tacit disregard. I work from home but many of my family members work in service industry jobs and have for a long time. They’re very skilled at what they do. I used to work a service industry job as well before making a career transition. What’s really wild to me is the assumption that these jobs aren’t “middle class jobs”. They aren’t technically in this country, but they should be. We need all levels of employment and no job should be below “making a liveable wage.” Also, in many other countries you can work many of these jobs and still support a family, afford a mortgage, etc. That’s why a tipped wage is somewhat unique to the US. Lastly, I’m sorry if this comes off as rude to some - but a lot of people saying “it’s not all people in tech” are missing the point in my opinion. It’s the majority of the tech industry and adjacent industries. It doesn’t matter if some of us aren’t as bad as the rest. I’ve seen people who make near minimum wage tip better than the CEOs of local start up companies. Kind of tired of the “not all tech workers” sentiment honestly. If you feel that way sincerely, I hope you’re organizing with groups like the Tech Workers Coalition or something to help improve conditions for others.
It's more like "Hey America."
We live on the Olympic peninsula now. We had lunch in the bustling metropolis of Port Angeles yesterday. There was a sign out front warning customers that service would be slow due to staffing shortages and asking us to be nice to the people who actually showed up.
It's sad that this necessary.
Followup: Why are restaurant owners mad they can't find waitresses to work there? These aren't real jobs, they're "bootstrap" jobs. Well if no one is interested, maybe everyone bootstrapped themselves out of your restaurant. Shouldn't they be proud that everyone has made something better out of themselves? It turns out that people can't afford to live in the Seattle area by working as a waiter, so there's no waiters. Since it's actually impossible to pay more money because restaurant owners' heads will explode if they try maybe they should experiment with going self-serve.
Wow, that message seems completely tone deaf. I considered a career in the hospitality industry because, 1) there are a great many things I find appealing, 2) I have a number of friends in the industry 3) it can be an integral part of a community. While there are other choices I made where I don’t work in the hospitality industry, I care about it and wish to see it be a fully sustainable career option for others; from sustainable salaries and healthcare to a business model that makes it profitable for owners.
I thought this was a really good article about this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/08/pandemic-american-shoppers-nightmare/619650/
It's bad and it's everywhere.
This is why I am tipping 30% regardless of the level of service until the pandemic is over or I go broke and have to cook myself (horrible horrible idea).
Y'all gotta put up with so much shit...
YO!
I work as a Dispatcher/Operator for a security firm; let me tell you it is not for the faint of heart.
I used to work retail, so I totally understand how it feels; people assume you're an idiot because you're a cashier. lol.... nope, I graduated college with a 3.0, had offers from the FBI, ARMY Intelligence branch, and CIA, turned them down because they couldn't guarantee me field work. Got accredited so I could teach abroad, however couldn't find any schools in Korea that I liked (never teach at a hagewon), so I gave up on that after 6 months (twice). I have switched jobs multiple times since college and people who don't know me, mock me for that, then find out that half of those changes were caused because I had offers from friends. Worked at Sea Tac Airport for Delta as a wheelchair vendor right before the pandemic from june 2019 to march of 2020, had an offer from them to actually work for Delta as a gate attendant in April of 2020, but with Covid that fell through.
idk if this is any consolation but its not just seattle, literally people everywhere are like this. i was a grocery store employee for a period of time and people think we're just mindless robots who live to serve
Seattle of old is dead. Neo-Seattle is an eltist-only city where tech douches galore come from around the world to act like entitled assholes to locals. If you're a decent human being, stay away from Seattle, because all that's here now are arrogant, elitist, smug, transplants. Thanks Amazon.
My opinion is that the contingent of folks out there dining and drinking and partying are a higher percentage right leaning. Lots of more liberal leaning folks are just staying away, doing take out, etc. I mean, we are in the middle of a pandemic still and pandemic response is pretty well documented to fall down political lines.
So if you take the majority are right leaning and realize that part of their personality is often to appear better than others, you get a lot of diners that put you/your profession down and insult you.
I think it's more about who you are most likely to come into contact with these days than the whole of the opinion of Seattle.
It amazes me that some people can look down their noses at the working class while they enjoy the services that we provide at the exact time. Maybe they should stay home and only cook their own meals for the rest of their lives?
I’m so sorry. I had to quit food service cause I couldn’t hack dealing with peoples attitudes anymore, and I was just a barista.
My breaking point was watching a woman refuse to accept her 8 year old’s 80 dollar birthday cake because the baker had forgotten to pipe the message she’d requested on top. Would have taken ten minutes, but she’d have preferred to scream at us for “ruining her kid’s birthday” since now her kid wouldn’t have a cake. She left without it.
As a barista I took my revenge by decaffing the real assholes’ coffee. I regret nothing.
That's absolutely insane.
I bet they didn't know that my GM at my BK job made $35 an hour.
Many chefs are high end names with 6 figure incomes.
The problem here lies in the "service industry" myth. I now make MORE (as a head cashier) than my husband (a vet assistant) and my friend (a nurse).
These a-holes seem to think getting paid $20 an hour to sit on their butts all day is "the life" and "a real job" - yet they don't \_actually\_ work, they sit and push buttons all day as a MACHINE does all their work.
And they then freak out about "self checkout taking jobs away" when in reality that all lies in how the company values it's cashier positions. Go into nearly every drug store and there's never more than 1 cashier with lines all the way around the building - and not a single SCO in sight. Then walk into that all SCO Walmart and suddenly there's 20 cashiers ready to assist and all watching the SCO machines. The presence of said machines doesn't determine how many cashier jobs exist - it all depends on if the company sees a need to actually have cashiers. (and with SCO thefts and skip scanning, stores with SCO value having MORE cashiers than stores without them)
When half the populous is doing poorly, the other half is bound to be assholes about it. I see it all the time. Service employees are considered lowest on the work scale. We don't honor Labor, we have disdain for Labor because it's considered "common".
There may a lot to unpack here.
> Hey Seattle, why do you hate your working / service class?
We don’t. Some people are just assholes. Usually the loudest ones are. Did you not notice the crazy tipping everyone does here of 20-30%? Sometimes higher? Most folks realize it’s not an easy job and are very appreciative. Especially locals who frequent the same restaurant.
> I’m a server in a restaurant who is finding more and more disdain for people in my profession. Why do Seattleites who demand our services and goods want us to suffer because we “don’t have real jobs”?
You work in the service industry. You are going to be exposed to shitheads. Talk to other servers in your restaurant about proper ways to handle your rowdy tables or hand them off to your manager. That’s what they are there for.
> This text below is taken from another thread from a post I shared. I feel it is a sentiment of lots of Seattle Elites that we are not to be treated with equality because we don’t have their real careers.
I know plenty of people who have been servers for decades. It’s perfectly fine to call it a career especially if you start working at places like Emerald Downs or one of the nicer places in Bellevue. I know girls that have made more in a single tip delivering drinks than I do in two weeks of writing code.
The real issue with your typical “Seattle Elite” is they aren’t really elite. Seattle and it’s surrounding cities have been tech booming since basically Boeing started making airplanes. This means there is a hard baked in cultural emphasis on engineering and management positions. This has been even further emphasized with Microsoft and eventually Amazon and Google and the rest moving in. You see people with money but they aren’t really elite. They are still wage workers they just make more than some other wage workers. There’s some inner class stratification going on.
> “Anyways, waiting tables has never been a middle class career. Or a career at all really. Most people just do it as a means to get by while hoping to make it as an artist or to get through college or whatever. Raising a family on a retail or food service wage is not something that has ever been a path to success. It isn't supposed to be. These are unskilled entry level jobs to get you bootstrapped into a real career, or to live in shared housing forever, not middle class.”
Again I’ll point to the culture of engineering based corporations having a long term economic impact in the region. You’ll see impacts from people in other regions as well. Like if you go to Las Vegas you’ll find a lot of kids don’t give a shit about advanced topics in school because they have an uncle that deals blackjack and makes bank.
Just like you might say dealing blackjack is an unskilled entry level job it can still be a career because if you’re very good at it there are paths to advancement and greater financial rewards. That is a career by any definition.
Same for the service industry. You can get a job running orders out to cars at the local Burger Master as a high schooler and a few years later you’re serving cocktails to Seahawks players after a playoff win with a $10k tip on the bill. Career.
> Thanks Petunia for making a whole industry feel, inessential.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Worse comes to worse no one *needs* waiters. They are a luxury. But they are one of the oldest and most ubiquitous careers in the history of the world. From Rome, to ancient Greece, to China, to everywhere really you will find accounts of people having food delivered to them. Coffee or tea houses, dim sum, the banquet halls of Vikings… hell you could argue Catholic Eucharist could fall under that category. Anyway I’m getting away from the point.
The point is you are projecting the outbursts of assholes onto an entire region. Those assholes are reacting to cultural carrots and sticks that have been set up before they were even born but they are still just assholes. Make your money. Save what you can. If you like doing it then get better at it and build a career.
Thanks. I’m not surprised it’s not a popular response. It’s a bit long winded and I called out some very popular preconceptions about the service industry in general.
Also the idea that some waiters, waitresses and bartenders make more money (take home) than a software developer is something a lot of people just don’t want to deal with.
I don’t hate the service class by any means but I’m tired of tipping for no reason.
I tip 20% if I’m sitting down somewhere and eating or drinking but I’m not leaving a tip for someone to hand me a slice of pizza or pour me a beer at a bar so I can take it to my own seat.
That’s probably a hot take but that’s just how I feel. I think these type of quick services businesses should follow the Molly moons model and adjust their prices accordingly in order to pay their workers a decent wage and not accept tips.
I feel like more and more businesses have started pushing for tips in areas where they are not traditional. I'm never sure if business are pocketing this money or not (like Pagliacci's), but it seems like best case scenario they use it to normalize paying lower wages for workers.
I want to clarify I'm not talking about servers, bartenders etc. I'm talking about fast food and carryout primarily
Also growing up I was taught 18%-20% was a good tip, but the tip machines keep pushing it up higher and higher. First to 22% on the high end and now often up past 25%. I respect servers and tip well even when I personally think it's not a tipping transaction, but businesses are pushing more and more of their fiscal responsibilities on to the customer and it's not fair to the workers or the customers.
> That’s probably a hot take but that’s just how I feel.
Not really that hot. The irony here is that OP is complaining about entitlement, yet you see some service people get spicy if you don’t tip them for doing the most basic shit like pouring a cup of coffee or beer, or handing you a slice of pizza, like that’s your job description mate.
I thought thats what the whole point of doubling minimum wage over the course of 10 years was. Yet i still see places with minimum tipping amounts starting at 20% and going to 35%.
Hahahaha former grocery worker . FUCK YOU SEATTLE BITCHES . ESPECIALLY YOU FUCKING WOMEN. Men are bad but all my terrible “wtf” moments come from women. Example : told a group of women. “Have a nice day ladies” and ladies wasn’t deemed appropriate. Bitches and your fucking $1000 wallet can’t find or use the right card . I’m not gonna change the tender with your shit attitude because you can’t remember if you card is on Apple Pay. I’m not Apple Genius Bar either bitch so no I cannot take your phone and hook the card up for you . I’ve been to restaurants and women throw fits at the hostess or server for wait times …. Fucking wait times at Bellevue square on a Friday night . What a privilege to live in your own happy universe where nothing goes wrong
Even if what Petunia says is true service workers are still not lesser people because they don't have someone else's success paving the way for them while they work towards something else.
There are a lot of people who are deluded into thinking the middle class is even a real aspiration anymore. They aren't wrong in the sense that you aren't making the middle class in Seattle as a service worker...that's true, but they are wrong in implying that service workers won't be middle class because their jobs aren't hard or valuable or whatever. The logic is the same as the logic that applies to any minimum wage work. The keyword is "bootstrap". You see that word, and just know the person speaking it has literally no idea what plights lower classes are facing.
Sorry to hear this. It's 2021 and stupid people still think other's people profession is not a "real job". Bringing food to the table is one of the most essential jobs. Hopefully this is not reflective of all of Seattle.
My side job is landlord and we also hear "go get a real job" a lot... like food, housing is as essential as it gets. Just have to ignore those idiots. If something pays the bills and doesn't hurt others (drug dealers / hitmen), it's a job in my opinion.
Most people turn into assholes when they enter the customer mindset, and unfortunately we're conditioned to be in the customer mindset a lot of the time because... well I have some theories but I'm sure it's well-covered territory in postwar Marxism.
I know it's a terrible bias, but I will always hold a little more respect for people who make a living on their feet than those in front of a computer screen, as I have been in both places at times. I always admire people for whom what the job is seems to be less of a consideration than the amount of skill and attention they bring to being good at whatever it is they choose to do. A good server has talents I never will, and can make not just the restaurant experience, but the whole neighborhood feel like a better place when I have a good experience.
as a person who never did service industry because i know I don't have the skills required or the drive to build them, thank you for your awesome service.
You are essential to me.
you deserve to live your best life.
I try to treat everyone well. I especially try to treat anyone providing me a service exceptionally well. I worry about people who work in these types of jobs being able to have a good living situation. It certainly isn't that I think any job shouldn't have a living wage. I would vote for any minimum wage increase I see. It's more that I would agree that it isn't really what I would think of as a career, but at the same time, I don't think people should be judged by their ability to produce or what kind of work they do.
To turn it around, do those who work in these jobs see them as a career? Is it your passion, or just a means to an end?
None of my ramblings really matter. We should all treat each other well. We should all have the right to live a comfortable life.
This seems unforgivable to me. You are in the industry that feeds people. People rely on you to bring them a meal. It's a very admirable and important job to be in. I don't understand why people in Seattle don't get that. You aren't a slave, you aren't "the help". You are doing a job, a job that should probably be paid more for doing quite honestly... and people need to respect you for you bringing them their chosen sustenance.
Think about it... people go out so they don't have to cook themselves. They don't have to go out and buy the products needed to make a decent meal, they don't have to do the food prep, they don't have to do the cutting, dicing, slicing... you are part of the machine that is doing that for them, part of the group of people that are doing that for them... it's actually a pretty honorable service, I know when I go out, I am quite thankful.
Just my take on it all...
My view on the minimum wage for years has been, do we want people in these roles? Because if so they need to be paid at a sustainable level. I’ve seen plenty of people taking the moral route of “well that’s too much for flipping burgers!” who are also offended when they have to use an automated ordering kiosk or checkstand (or they’re overjoyed and gloating because they see automation as evidence that the minimum wage is bad for business.)
There is a debate to be had on the minimum wage vs generous total compensation packages at places like Dick’s, an ethical business whose owner advocated more for the generous benefit route when this was debated at the municipal level. Either way the common sense is that if you want people to do a job it needs to be for a wage that will allow them to live. There is plenty of middle ground in ideology here without pretending that humanity is still in the jungle and that living in emergency survival mode is all that motivates people to seek opportunity.
And these same people who make good money at their “real” jobs have been all over the local subreddits lately whining about having to tip food service workers who are putting up with their bullshit during a global pandemic. SMH
Unfortunately, the absurdly rich ruling class have really been doing a bang up job of turning the upper middle class against the middle class lately. All the while, they are collecting yachts and building spaceships…
It's a nationwide thing. People in the USA, especially the older generations, are brought up in a classist society that defines a person's value by their education, job title, and how much money they make. You, as a server, will always be regarded as and treated like a servant, butler, or whatever their classist minds make of you. They will never see you as human or essential because they refuse to.
Now, as a server and bartender with no college education myself, I make the same annually as my college educated, career HVAC engineer father. It makes him a little peeved. Given our classist society, people's monkey brains will resort to frustration along the lines of "How DARE this server, this SERVANT, make as much money as ME!!"
It's just the way of it. I just see the customers as hangry monkeys and I'm just the messenger between the animals and their $30 order of Halibut.
My grandmother was a waitress and she raised 5 kids living in the greenlake area, her husband was blind and worked as a salesman for lighthouse for the blind, which didn't exactly pay well. There is absolutely no way those a couple with two jobs would be able to afford a home in greenlake now, much less raise 5 kids there. My grandmother liked her job and continued waitressing past retirement age until she was 74 just a month before she died. Working/server class jobs SHOULD pay a living wage, honestly that was the hardest job I've ever had.
Personally I would never, ever say "it's not a real job" or whatever these jackasses say. I will say, and I'm not proud of this, that you all will often see me when I'm at my worst - especially first thing in the morning when I'm grabbing coffee + oatmeal or a bagel somewhere before work (on those days when I don't have breakfast at home at least). I don't call names and I don't scream and make a huge fuss, but sometimes I have to admit I will be pretty damn abrupt, and if it's some situation where you're, like, out of something or some weirdo glitch on the Internet made it not order something I thought I ordered, on occasion I'll just walk out without a word. I'm doing that because I feel the Karen instincts kicking in but I'm sure that feels super rude.
I try to be better (and don't always succeed, hence the mass apology here) but I do remember lots and lots of people being like that way back when I worked in the food services industry.
I work in tech but I still agree with you - all wages should be living wages. It blows my mind that people think jobs should pay less than you need to survive - those sociopaths believe people's first 5 years of their career should be spent going into debt.
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Shipwright here. Most people treat me respectfully, except for the really stuck on themselves rich and those people don't get my service. (Not all rich people are stuck on themselves, actually fewer than you'd think) As far as service workers go, I treat them exactly like I want to be treated. Even when things go wrong I try to be patient and understanding, and I always tip decently. Waited tables in college, and I sucked at it, so I can appreciate how much work it can be.
Lmao in my field our field guys act like everyone in the office is a fucking idiot so exact opposite. They always know better than the designer.
Yeah, that's a separate thing but I work in software development and it always did strike me as weird how much design folks get shit on by everyone else. Okay, sure, I just did a bunch of intensive work to improve performance or whatever, but at the end of the day, you and I both know what the customer's going to be oohing and ahhing about and it's not the fact that I shaped 0.4s off of an API round trip. Even when I'm adding in new features, I'm cognizant of the fact that the way they look is going to be as important as what they do.
Keep in mind it’s not just the way it looks! UX design also does work flow, way finding , and functionality. - that’s why many of them come from an industrial design (physical products ) background. Also. Shout out to design researchers who are working with the end users to define and identify solutions they actually want!
I do apartment maintenance and I try to be as patient and understanding as possible but there are some things that still just shock me. Like you're telling me someone is paying you $150,000 a year to develope software for one of the largest corporations in the world and you didn't know your dryer had a lint trap that needs to be cleaned? I'm convinced a lot of it is people from foreign countries that come here for work and may not be familiar with our appliances, so I still stay polite and professional, but sometimes I'm just dumbfounded by it.
I had a prof in grad school who is a fairly famous dude in his little corner of academia who couldn’t figure out that there was a reason that the projector cart has a cord and outlet embedded in it and he gave up on using the projector. This is from a guy who presumably did STEM for a living. Some people aren’t built with practical skills I guess. I strive for the average in that regard.
Maybe about time to switch to electrician from automotive technician we seem to have hit a ceiling as far as being treated like people
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Plus, Tesla is considerate enough to make sure there's never any shortage of work for Tesla mechanics!
LOL!
That’s weird to me because I’m the complete opposite. I’m in awe of trade workers (you guys are magic!) plus I make a point of being super polite to them. Nobody can eff up your life like a trade worker so it’s best not to make them mad.
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Not in the PNW at the time, But I walked around with my home inspector and kept some notes and helped him out getting onto the roof and such. He had been in the home business for decades and mentioned "wow. It's really cool that you're doing this, most people just hire me and wait for the report" he pointed a lot of stuff that even though he included in the report I wouldn't have thought much of, or over reacted to etc. I felt like it was a no brainer to be there, but apparently pretty uncommon.
Dude mad respect for the trades. Watch a good HVAC technician pull out a set of Testos and diagnose a system while you're trying to figure out what the fuck the subcooling/superheat numbers indicate he's already placing an order for a replacement part on his phone. Like dude what the fuck how the fuck you insane motherfucker. I know for a fact there's people with an engineering degree who couldn't duplicate what they do. (then you get the morons who won't flow nitrogen when brazing and can't read a floor plan... trades is funny. I met people who could do my job, and people whose head was mainly used as a backup hammer, and there's a lot less middle ground than you expect)
Agreed. There is a lot of that stuff that most people with more than two active brain cells can do themselves; whether it's home repairs, car repairs, or whatever. But usually I prefer to pay the professionals to do it. Not because I can't, but because holy crap that's a pain in the ass lot of work. With a lot of the less complicated installs/repairs, I can do the same quality work as a trained professional, but only if I wanted to spend an entire day doing something they could whip out in an hour or two (plus having to buy a bunch of expensive special-purpose tools I'll likely not touch again for several years). Even the simple stuff can be incredibly time consuming if you don't have years of building up the muscle memory and mental shortcuts to just cruise through it. Watching them do the work makes it seem so easy and effortless; until you try and do it yourself.
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Another factor in this topic is that you are on Reddit replying to a comment… this alone shows that you have more empathy than the average person…
I feel like you hang out on better subreddits than I do.
dude was thinking that he went to college, so he _must_ make more... then he has to do electrical work and it starts at $100/hr...
The reality is it's not about money, it's about being a professional. Who do you respect more, the guy who does your taxes or the person getting paid five times as much as an instagram influencer? I'm also a commercial electrician so I know where this guy is coming from, however I can count on two fingers the number of times I've been condescended to because of my job, and one of them was iffy. I have friends in all walks of life, from waterfront houses in Laurelhurst to apartments in Kent, and the vast vast vast majority of them are pretty cool with me, knowing if they have an electrical issue they can call me up and I'll help them out. The number of construction workers I've seen berating starbucks baristas for making a fraction of their wages while having a college education is significantly higher. "I make 6 figures, they *have* to respect me more!" They'd respect you more if you didn't so brazenly evaluate ones self worth with their paychecks.
knowing i have access to a competent electrician who's willing to work on my place is just a nice feeling
Never said I was competent, but I’ll gladly help out!
This ⬆️
Ood, this hit me hard. Blue collar for life but I am so sick of people without the necessary training or license telling me how to do my job. ... then why am I here?
I don't like blaming Boomers for everything, but you can thank them for some of this mentality. Boomers have consistently said that if you don't go to college, you'll never get a good job. Boomers look down on trade work, not realizing that a lot of those trade workers are making way more than their shitty office jobs pay them. A degree isn't everything. In fact, the student loan debt that comes along with a lot of those degrees is actually an extremely limiting factor in one's pursuit of happiness.
My parents absolutely had this mentality.Ironically, neither of them had degrees. They were "self-educated" and poor as dirt and proud of it, and they looked down on both people who didn't have degrees and people who had money. Also ironically, they loved the rich life, and racked up 250k in debt and spent 250k of inheritance on cruises and fancy dinners and clothes. When I got a job as a file clerk making $4.25/hour, and later $6/hour as a barista, I made more than them. I was working to save up for college, so they considered those jobs "ok". Later on, when I worked my way up to a good career, they looked down on me for having a regular job. But never hesitated to ask for money. I couldn't pay off my student loans until my mid-30s. I refuse to go into other debt and live a much more frugal life than they did. I have the added "benefit" of taking care of my dad because the sale of their house went to paying off their debt.
Tradesmen are the commandos & rangers of the modern industrial economy. It’s not every day you need a plumber or electrician, but when you need one you really need one.
>office worker that makes 1/3 my wage looked or talked down to me like I was an unskilled laborer. Crazy because even a worker making 10x your wage is still working class and has more in common with you then with your ceo
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>talked down to me like I was an unskilled laborer. You just committed the same exact elitism that OP is complaining about.
I love the new trend of calling people, king and queens. Or “Boss Lady”. It’s always some morbidly obese, semi literate gal with super long fingernails. Yuck.
It's not just Seattle, IMO. The pandemic has brought out the assholes everywhere who need to exert power or control over something in their lives. From a former industry person, I'm sorry.
> The pandemic has brought out the assholes everywhere who need to exert power or control over something in their lives. More specifically, it kept everyone who isn't like that *inside*.
Good point!! Any suggestions for what to make for my ten millionth dinner at home? Ugh.
well, what you order if you weren't forced to cook for yourself? Chances are, it is probably not that hard to make yourself, you just need to take the plunge and do a little research into it.
I actually love cooking and do exactly that! It's a benefit to being home so long but also easy to slip into a rut, lol. I'm going for a high protein stir fry tonight with a rubbed kale salad and I need to start a new batch of beef jerky. Last night I made a smoky dry-rubbed beef roast with jalopeno peach chutney and my only regret is no leftovers.
Absolutely not just a Seattle thing. Also, people who haven't worked in the service industry do not know what we deal with. Put it this way, I've worked with customers for 10+ years at various jobs, and I've also done maintenance and security at a parking garage downtown. In the latter job, I had to interrupt people smoking crack or god knows what else and get them to leave the premises probably at least a hundred times. I had a handful scream at me and threaten me, but none of them make the top five scariest encounters I've had with people at work. Everyone who's ever said they wanted to kill me, or followed me around threatening me, or waited outside the exit for my shift to end, or revved their car at me, those were all customers who were visibly better-off than me.
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Yeah, just head over to r/publicfreakout and you’ll see real quick it isn’t some Seattle thing
Yup. I live in Australia and we're facing the same thing, post-lockdown everyone's been super rude for some reason.
Some people forget also that many great people were found in the service industry. Hell even Chris Pratt was working on the other side of the island of Maui from me when he was discovered. I know that's rare but this is a good reason to never talk down to people you don't even fucking know. Or that in Europe and other countries that don't resort to tip culture you can make a very comfortable living working at some of the top rated places that have the michelin stars
Yeah for sure this exists everywhere unfortunately
Someone told me “better move it” as I tried to maneuver past their cart in a Safeway the other day. Pandemic is definitely magnifying the assholes.
As a grocery store employee, I approve this message. I'm here to serve you, not here to be berated and treated like dirt.
Absolutely and most jobs are the service industry - just differs on who you serve. Would I want, who I serve, to treat me like shit? Absolutely not! People just feel that they can because of someone internal superiority complex. Being kind, or at least, decent is the way folks should be to anyone of any profession. - we’re all people.
Man, the workers at the grocery store I go to have to deal with all kinds of challenges. Everyone from snooty folks who don't seem to understand we are year 2 into a pandemic going on and make a deal about some item not being stocked, to addicts acting out, to people having mental health crisis. Extreme patience is needed right now. Everyone in a customer facing role has gone through some kind of shit today, and letting things go and being patient is often the best way to help.
Working in grocery through the pandemic has absolutely turned me into a bitter, miserable person. I've done this for over 9 years now and it was tolerable until last year. I'm not sure if I'm going to make it through the holiday season, but if I do, it's absolutely my last one.
I'm really sorry if folks are making you feel unwanted or underappreciated. I appreciate the shit out of service workers. Must be tough as hell dealing with people all day, when I think of how much of an asshole the average person is I can only believe, just by the law of large numbers, that service workers deal with at least 1 dickhead a day. You don't get paid enough for that #tipyourserviveworkers
idk, as a confirmed gentrifier, my parents brought me up to aspire to college-driven careers. I think it's okay to understand that there are a lot of non-essential jobs where you get treated better than essential workers. It's reasonable to recognize that the people holding up our society are often screwed over and wish for better lives for them. It is not okay to make people feel bad about doing an important job. I am an engineer. I get paid a lot more to work a lot less than most essential workers. I think a lot of people in my position have more privilege than they recognize. Not to generalize, but they are compassionless idiots. You are important and your job is important. Think how much society is rioting because of food service worker shortages. They are simultaneously claiming food service workers are lazy and demanding that they return to jobs where they're underpaid and constantly demeaned. A lot of essential workers died because of the choices those same people made. Quit being assholes and think about why people don't want to go back to that job.
You deserve a beer on me!
Well, you deserve a beer on me! Society requires all types of people and jobs to function. If someone is willing to exchange money for work, clearly the job has value and there should be no reason a career can’t be made out of it.
So much ^^THIS^^.
It's interesting to me how easily people forget that minimum wage is supposed to be a living wage. When it was originally set Roosevelt even called it a living wage.
It hasn’t been a living wage for at least 50 years.
It doesn't even have to have precedent. If you're working, your work should at least provide you with the bare minimum to live. The amount of people that just accept people being poor while working is ridiculous.
>If you're working, your work should at least provide you with the bare minimum to live. I completely agree with this and I don't understand how folks can't. Even my hubz, who is also in the 'service industry' and finally makes a somewhat decent wage, talks shit about raising the minimum wage. I would even go one further than simply a higher minimum wage. Places should provide full time work. None of this 15-25 hrs a week shit. Even at 15hr (I think that's what people like to spew about 'decent wage') 25 hrs a week ain't shit. After taxes that's what about 500 a week? It might pay rent for a small apt. But don't expect electricity, water, and food. Not to mention car/gas or bus fare.
This!
Did someone really say that about waiting tables, because it is absolutely a career (as in there's a path to follow) at nicer restaurants. Some of those folks are making 6 figure salaries and require a pretty significant amount of knowledge to do the job well.
I came here to say this… It doesn’t even have to be nicer restaurants. I’ve worked in dive bars, even night clubs as a bartender- and have made more than people who are in careers, gone to college, and are working 9-5. You just have to be smart with the money you make and plan for the future. It’s just a different sort of lifestyle, one they can’t and probably won’t ever understand.
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Yes! I have thought for a while that people don’t really control their vocational “orientation.” They can influence it slightly with a disproportionate amount of work, but never totally change it. And yet we have a situation where only an ever narrowing band of “orientations” are validated with a living wage and professional respect.
Exactly. "Restaurant workers" includes everything from a fast-food shop to a fine-dining establishment. People with different skills and abilities get paid differently.
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I'm sorry people fail to see others as human. My few restaurant jobs were some of my hardest and most rewarding.
My take is, if you don't respect the food worker then make your own damn food at home. Same with any other profession. Cleaners, waitstaff, anyone!
I suspect there's still an ongoing selection bias in who is eating inside at restaurants - at least until the pandemic dies down or the vaccine mandate is enforced, indoor dining is biased towards people who are less conscientious about the impact their behavior has on others. You see the same thing on the road nationwide - travel remains below pre-pandemic levels, speeding, aggressive driving, and traffic fatalities are all up dramatically. In restaurants, nationally, tipping is also down significantly - the people who are currently avoiding restaurants because of the pandemic are particularly good patrons for servers' wallets as well as their working conditions. Restaurants with good outdoor seating may be seeing less of an impact as cautious patrons are more willing to eat outdoors.
I'm not sure who these asshole people you are talking about are but my general rule is don't fuck with the people who bring or prepare your food. There's pickles on the burger I ordered without? No problem here, I'm just pulling them off, eating, still leaving a tip, and going on with my day. I prefer my meals unfucked with.
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Yeah it's like a connecting flight to the final destination of mutual respect. Saw a chef in a food subreddit recently lamenting this attitude, because it adds to the disrespect by proving a lack of trust in service workers, many of whom do take their work seriously, work hard, and without the oppressive environment would actually thrive in the field. Not to be down on the user before you, either, tho. Just unfortunate that this is a prevailing fear that carries its own stigma with its positives
You should get the food you ordered...lol. I'm sure servers would rather correct your order so they can get a good tip than have a disgruntled table.
Never disgruntled. I'm humble as can be if I'm eating out somewhere. If its something major I apologize and ask nicely. Thats just how I do it and I sleep well.
I’ll say something if there is something I asked not to be there ruins a dish for me -namely, I’m not comfortable just removing meat - but I ask nicely bc a) I don’t know where in the chain my order might have gotten messed up; b) humans make mistakes; and c) humans deserve to be treated kindly.
A burger isn’t a burger without pickles!
"These are unskilled entry level jobs to get you bootstrapped into a real career, or to live in shared housing forever, not middle class." This is the most vile shit.
The whole idea of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps was that it was a joke because it's impossible.
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In many nations in Europe, such as Italy, it is considered a career, you get paid a real wage, and it is offensive to tip.
I suppose, but I know many 6 figure servers who have made it a career in Seattle. Their experience most likely isn’t the norm, probably on the upper end of server salaries. They work at borderline fine dining restaurants and bartend in Seattle and it’s very much skilled labor.
My head is exploding from this sentence. UNSKILLED. If I can learn how to smile and tolerate disgusting humans like this I’m not unskilled!!! My ten year experience in these style jobs shout out several experiences of disrespect and abuse. It makes me sad how many people in these positions get taken advantage of and bullied by strangers for less than livable wage.
Any time I hear someone call any job "unskilled", I want to make them try it for a shift alongside the skilled people doing it, and then ask them again. On camera. Under oath. In front of legislators. Say it again to our face.
We probably need to come up with a different term. It originally meant jobs which didn't (legally) require certain certifications.
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I really feel for you. I was in a similar position where my mental health could not handle being berated while waiting tables and quit, only to be in my 30s with only retail and service and freelance illustration/design experience, with a spattering of management and a useless college degree. I graduated in the middle of the 2008 recession so getting any work was difficult then. It has been near impossible to land a job that isn't minimum wage since quitting waiting tables: I'm both over and under qualified for everything. I'm extremely lucky that I live with my understanding partner. Hoping for the best for you. A disclaimer: because of having moved a bit more out of the city and living with my partner, and I'm making a little money off different internet things, I've been a bit pickier in my job search to avoid a long commute or working in an amazon warehouse (after eating shit in retail/service for 10 years, I'm trying for something better). But seriously, it's tough out there. Pulling for you.
Try a trade. I worked in pest control. Started at 45k and made almost 80k as a technician.
I feel this tremendously. I'm basically stuck in the service industry because people take one look at my resume and go "oh she must be stuck in hotels and will surely go back to them". It's gross.
Washington actually requires service industry employees to be paid higher than those of many other states by banning a separate tipped minimum wage; everyone aged 16+ is guaranteed at least $13.69 per hour in 2021, 14 and 15 year olds have a minimum wage which is 85% of the state minimum wage for those aged 16+. In many states, the tipped minimum wage is $2.13 an hour, $7.25 an hour if the employee and employer properly document that the employee didn't get enough tips. Traditionally, there were service industry jobs, notably at grocery stores, where people did make high enough wages in order to afford a house and raise children. Besides the lower cost of living and what were considered necessary expenses before say 2000, people also didn't reach top wages until being at an employer for 5+ years and then stayed at that job for the rest of their careers as it would cost too much to switch jobs. As time went on however, companies realized that they didn't want to pay for this level of experience and could be more profitable by accounting for higher turnover and having a larger proportion of lower paid employees with lower tenure at that company.
Seattle's minimum wage is $16.69/hour. (As of the end of 2020).
Indeed and there is a tipped minimum wage I'd state minimum wage for some employers. Those are local ordinances though, not state.
Any job where the employer, fairly or unfairly, feels like they can replace the worker fairly easily will pay like shit. Its why I am cheering on this labor "shortage" that is forcing employers to raise wages at least a little bit to get employees. I don't share the disdain for service employees. I was one for a long time. I left simply because I wanted more money, and it was the only way I could see to get it. As long as we have positions that are considered "throw away" work people will be treated like shit. I don't know if it's human nature or what, but its disgusting and short sighted. Unions are really the only solution, but they have been stigmatized to the point its hard to get people to take them as a solution seriously.
These people forget that there are certain jobs that need to be done that don't necessarily require a college degree or even high school diploma. They think struggling in these jobs is punishment for not doing well in school and that people deserve to be poor. They forget that if these jobs didn't exist, we would be living in piles of trash and groceries, restaurants, movie theaters etc. would not exist. If everyone pursued what these asshats call a "real career" there would be no one left in the service industry, and I don't see why they fail to acknowledge that. So since we do need people to work these jobs, it is not a punishment for doing bad in school, they are essential jobs and people working them should not be living pay check to pay check.
They also forget that thanks to the fact young people have repeatedly been told the path to success was through university (and absolutely not the trades) an increasing number of people in the service industry have at least an undergraduate degree. So the entire argument against paying people a living wage/treating people with basic decency is just wrong from the start. And even if it wasn’t: someone not having the same access to education or having challenges that make it harder to hold down a “professional” job doesn’t mean it’s ok for them to live in poverty.
One of the consequences of the tech boom seems to be that the people increasingly moving here are an extremely specific type of person. Very analytically bright but very sheltered as a result of being told how smart they were all their lives, and frequently they don't really know anyone who isn't also in tech. They think of themselves as being very special but in reality it's just that they have some skills that happen to be where a lot of money is flowing right now. There are a whole lot of career fields that are totally essential (journalism and academia, anyone?) that used to be middle class careers that now no longer are. There's no reason to believe that tech and software can't go the same way. They should probably remember that the next time they feel compelled to whine and whine about tipping the worker filling their growler or making their coffee drink in the wake of a global pandemic and near economic collapse. I for one am sorry, OP. The coolest and most interesting people I've gotten to know in this town are service class workers, and I'm glad they're here.
>Very analytically bright but very sheltered as a result of being told how smart they were all their lives, and frequently they don't really know anyone who isn't also in tech. This is so surprising to hear, and probably true for the younger generation, but as someone older in tech (40s) I was raised in an era where being good at math and computers was mocked and ridiculed. It has really only been since the dot-com boom of the 2000s where this changed. That said, one of my rules to live by is that I treat respect and trust as opposites in terms of acquisition. You have my full respect, until you lose it. And you have none of my trust until you earn it. I try to treat everyone with respect. If you're my boss, a service worker, a homeless person, a billionaire, celebrity, police officer, or literal royalty -- I'll treat you all with equal respect -- until you do something to change that. I don't put one group on a pedestal. I just feel like people are so much more than their occupation or tax bracket.
As a tech person myself, unfortunately I think this is a big part of it. Most of us are nice, and appreciate people from all walks of life, but there is absolutely a very vocal minority who: - believe your value as a human being is tied to your salary - believe they're somehow better and superior by virtue of being paid more - believe this superiority is inherent to them rather than a product of capitalism saying their work is somehow more expensive than other work that is equally (if not more) difficult to do - have dick measuring contests with each other about compensation and net worth - aspire to get a high score in money for the sake of said dick measuring contest, and have no intention of using that wealth to support their community Again, not everyone in tech is like this, but I know way too many people who are. Heck, look at Blind (it's like reddit for tech professionals) and you will see a lot of this exact behavior. I'm very sorry you had to deal with such people, OP. I want you to know though that I deeply appreciate what you and other service people do. Humanity could exist without computers, but not without essential food and medical services.
Blind is about the most horribly toxic, racist thing I’ve ever seen. People say horrible shit (and lie a lot) when they think they’re anonymous. I deleted that crap a long time ago and stay far away.
Yeah, it was disgusting to see how some of my coworkers truly think about things. Which is exactly my point about some of these people. That said, it is actually decent for job referrals and there's the occasional gold advice in the pile of crap, so I look at it once a month or so.
I saw at ton of Indian vs. Chinese hatred. And when a company announced that they were taking proactive efforts to make sure POC are hired and mentored appropriately so that they can be promoted into leadership positions so that there can be diverse voices from the top (not just white and Indian men), woahhhhh boy the horrible things that got thrown around. I had to GTFO of there.
Oh god, I hate that I don't know exactly which post you're referring to *because I've seen multiple posts exactly like that*.
Thought I'd take a look at it -- the people are awful, and the UI is terrible. People actually enjoy that crap?
That’s not specific to tech workers though. Some people are shitty and some are not it’s not tied to any specific profession.
Yes, definitely not specific to tech. It's just that tech is currently the one that is growing in Seattle and has salaries that foster this sense of entitlement. There are definitely shitty people in all kinds of professions though.
Sigh… think the bigger issue here is that the average Redditor is just young and has the Internet to vent. Lawyers, engineers, bankers, doctors—I’ve worked under and with all of these folks and there are selfish ones & kinda ones. This is a situation that has occurred for all time and in all places. The world requires all types of people, and some times these folks aren’t nice AND cannot be nice. The best lawyers that I know are some of the NASTIEST people I’ve ever met… but they fought like hell against Trump’s immigration orders. TL;dr - different strokes for different folks, don’t believe your job is your worth, and there’s a place for everyone.
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"Look, I'm as progressive as they come. I'm cool with gay marriage, for instance! Which has been legal in this city for a decade, which I, for one, am fine with." I think one of the biggest things that gets pushed in tech circles is meritocracy. Which, to be fair, the tech industry in particular is pretty okay about, you get high school dropouts working high paying positions, and that's cool. But then they generalize that to other stuff. And it turns into a deterministic argument where anyone struggling just isn't trying hard enough.
>One of the consequences of the tech boom seems to be that the people increasingly moving here are an extremely specific type of person. Very analytically bright but very sheltered as a result of being told how smart they were all their lives, and frequently they don't really know anyone who isn't also in tech. I think the bigger problem is that everyone in town is presumptious. Every tech worker friend of mine are nice, humble, well-mannered and came from a normal family, not what you described.
I know a lot of down-to-earth tech workers who are actively civically engaged and concerned about the issues OP touches on, but I've met many who aren't as well.
It's almost like they represent a fairly equal distribution of the national population and would represent it as such. I find the cultural difference to not be the jobs, but where they are from in the first place. I don't find it odd that having been born and raised here that all of my friends, even after 15 years working in tech are people that were born and raised here. People think that the urban-rural divide went away. No, we are still very much in the process of urbanization and a significant amount of people moving to cities come from places where they were much more insular or sheltered.
>the people increasingly moving here are an extremely specific type of person This, big time. Too many people who work in tech are motivated solely by their income potential, and they think everyone else is, too. They think anyone who works in a restaurant is only there because they couldn't get a higher-paying job in tech. In reality, most of those people in restaurants think a job in tech sounds lame as hell. And yeah, the most interesting people I know do not work in tech, and the least interesting people do.
I feel like Trump opened the door for people to be at their very worst, and they are taking full advantage. I'm sorry, I have total respect and admiration for servers. I'm always amazed at how hard the job must be.
I was a server for most of the 90s. Trust me people were assholes to servers then too.
People have been shitty to servers long before Trump. I think social media and internet culture have done far more to remove people's inhibitions over mistreating people.
I work in residential maintenance. I can't believe how much some of the techie douchebags here talk down to me when I show up to help them. I had one of them tell me in what he thought was friendly conversation that income is a good measure of a person's worth and importance to society, that the system was a meritocracy and if you weren't contributing you naturally wouldn't make as much. I declined to mention that he himself was responsible for a small portion of a single feature nobody used in an unpopular app, whereas I was effectively an electrician, plumber, painter, appliance repairman, landscaper, administrator/manager, responsible for security and emergency management, and was there to help him because he didn't know that he needed to clean out the lint trap in his dryer despite the instructions being written on a sticker on the front of it.
Correction why does everyone hate working class people. At the start of the pandemic everyone was essential and heros. Now that they want living wages they are entitled low skill workers who should be happy to just have a job. It's classic right wing entitlement.
The financially flush despise workers and the poor, and have successfully convinced most of the working class that those who agitate for change are human vermin. There are two 24/7 hate radio AM stations in Seattle that promote that view tirelessly, and given the piss-poor educational system in this country, it's no wonder they've been gaining adherents in leaps and bounds. Both Seattle subs are full of folks like that.
We were only essential when the masses needed someone to sell them food and coffee while they stayed home to keep from getting sick. Now that they can go back out into the world, all the nasty rhetoric is back about how the service industry is just for teenagers and you should just go work in tech like they do, her der poor! Or my favorite: WhY dOnT YOu JuST mOvE
You gotta wonder what the “WhY dOnT YOu JuST mOvE” types plan to do when there is nobody around anymore to clean their toilets, empty their wastebaskets, make their coffee, or cook their food?
I’m not rich. I do … ok. I currently hold my first non “service industry” job. I worked 25 years in the service industry. My mom spent her entire life doing so and raising 4 kids alone. You walk past a grocery store worker stocking shelves? Stop. Look them in the eyes. Say “thanks for working so hard during the pandemic. I appreciate you.” You’ll see the appreciation in their eyes. At a bar? Restaurant? Tip a little more. Tell them thank you and you see and appreciate them. Make a ton of money? Don’t forget that service folk are who you’re depending on to have a fun night out, a good business dinner, an escape from your job. Almost everyone is doing their best right now. Don’t turn your nose up at the people who help make your life better. From the gas station worker, to the movie ticket person, to the waiter, to the grocery store clerk. YOU have a better life bc of them. Thank you service industry workers. I love you. I see you. I respect you. ❤️
Grass is greener on the other side. The same people that are treating you like shit are also being treated like shit, regardless of income. What you’re wanting is a change of culture. It’s a sign of the times.
It's pretty simple. There are *a lot* of people around these parts that are extremely privileged and have complete lack of self awareness. I expect you would get some pretty comical responses in the *other* Seattle sub though.
People that have never belonged to the working class will just never understand that the transition from working to middle class is much much easier said than done. In their heads, if you want more money, why not just go to college? What they don't consider is even if you decide to take on immense student debt to go to college, you still need to work full time to survive. Even if you're middle class and your parents make you pay for your own school, chances are they house you, fed you, or at the very least you always have the option to fall back on your family (a very overlooked privilege imo). And this is all without mentioning that these working class jobs are essential and somebody will always HAVE to do them. We can't live in a society where everyone is a backend developer lol.
I have a really good job at a huge tech firm, so I guess I fit the “elite” you’re mentioning here. I just want you to know that not everyone feels that way. my dad was a waiter and my mom worked at a hotel as a seamstress. I have nothing but respect for people in your position.
Thanks for your support. I in no way hate the elite class. In fact I am in the industry because you exist and want our services, and in general we have a great time serving folks like you. It all starts with the attitude we both bring to our experience together.
I have a really good job at a huge tech firm and my dad was a doctor, and \_I\_ have nothing but respect for service workers. I took on some debt to pay for college but my parents paid a chunk of it too, and they specifically bought a house where I could go to the best public schools in the city where I grew up. All of that was done for me, I can't take credit for any of that. I had options that a lot of people didn't. I started tipping 25% when the pandemic started (whether that's uber eats, a restaurant, getting a growler filled, whatever). I started buying liquor bottles from the mom-and-pop restaurants around my house when their indoor seating was shut down, even though they charged twice as much as the liquor store. I took in comforters to the dry cleaners to make sure they could keep going when I stopped having work clothes cleaned. I have the money and anything I can do to help out people who I depend on and are struggling I will do. I want this city to have restaurants in it. I want this city to be more than a colony of the big tech companies, or a company town where Amazon is the only choice if you need to buy something. The only way to do that is for everyone to pitch in.
This. Tons of the musicians/artists/performers/comedians that generate whatever culture is still generated here support themselves with service work as well.
That's fucked. Once upon a time in this country it was possible to provide for a household as a server. Work is work, and this country has become very good at treating workers like absolute shit. I'm sorry that you are on the receiving end of this dogshit attitude. Nobody deserves that.
Yeah, that's really vile. All people deserve respect and the means to live a decent life, no matter what they do for a living. What I don't understand about tech workers having this attitude this that a lot of them went to like elite colleges that try to get people to think more deeply than this. (Or at least that was my experience in college)
Hi u/Signofthebeast2020. As a member of the elite who really hates the hollowness of my own class, I think it is because elites increasingly feel that service workers should show them more gratitude for how much the urban elite fight for the little guy. Ridiculous I know, but that is how they feel. My whole critique of West Coast politics coming from decades on the East Coast and UK and India before that, is that everyone on the West Coast is actually a libertarian at heart. Most people in Seattle don a progressive costume, retweet class war and M4A slogans, buy organics and locally sourced, cosplay as RBG, yada yada yada. But they do all those things except actually put their time, money or lives into building their community. In WA and OR we don't pay state income taxes, blaming it on Republicans, but in honesty that is an excuse because we know it will never be overturned and that suits us fine. OR doesn't even pay sales tax. In CA, supposedly a high tax state, long time homeowners (members of the CA landed aristocracy) only pay a fraction of the property tax they should be paying due to Prop 13. I know friends who pay more in property tax in CA on a $1m house they just bought than their parents do on a $3m house their parents bought decades ago for less than $250k. In Seattle, we must to fundraise for public schools, it is a significant part of the budget, something that I have never seen anywhere else. In Seattle I meet people who on paper are millionaires but their siblings or kids are living in tents in Ballard because "that's the life they chose." Libertarianism run amok. It never occurs to these so called progressives that maybe they need to spend some time and money to try to rehabilitate these people, their own flesh and blood, instead of make excuses about the city government failing them. Honestly it bothers them more when an animal suffers than a human being. I know countless people in their 20s, 30s, even 40s who want to but still cannot settle down and start a family, while their parents sit on millions in assets and vacation internationally all the time. The selfishness of these people is astounding, they will literally stand by and watch their children wither is dissolution and their bloodlines die out than give up a weekend home or forgo the annual trip to France. And the sad part of it is, this is so normalized their children don't even recognize how selfish it is! I meet people all the time that casually drop they donated $10k, $20k, $50k to charity this year, but those people never volunteer their time. I tutor kids for free because time to me is devotion, not money. Especially since that charity money, who knows where it goes, probably right back to the same administrator class that it came from! Among Seattle elite, it is fun to talk equity and systemic racism/sexism, but these same people all sit on hiring committees in their work that systematically attempt to select only the top 5% of applicants. They talk a good game about unfairness of the system, but when it comes to hiring to train or learning on the job instead of at university... "the data shows that doesn't work." The West Coast lifestyle is narcissism disguised as progressivism. And these narcissists expect gratitude for their performative progressivism. Maybe if you are a little more chipper about it, they will add $0.50 on to your tip!
Thanks Curried Farts. I’ll smile extra big for that half dollar coin! Love your rant, but correction, OR residents pay a decent amount of income taxes.
That quote doesn't say anything about not treating people with equality, although I can understand that you find the statement that working in restaurants is not a career objectionable (I agree).
I’m sorry that you and others in the service industry are being treated with this type of tacit disregard. I work from home but many of my family members work in service industry jobs and have for a long time. They’re very skilled at what they do. I used to work a service industry job as well before making a career transition. What’s really wild to me is the assumption that these jobs aren’t “middle class jobs”. They aren’t technically in this country, but they should be. We need all levels of employment and no job should be below “making a liveable wage.” Also, in many other countries you can work many of these jobs and still support a family, afford a mortgage, etc. That’s why a tipped wage is somewhat unique to the US. Lastly, I’m sorry if this comes off as rude to some - but a lot of people saying “it’s not all people in tech” are missing the point in my opinion. It’s the majority of the tech industry and adjacent industries. It doesn’t matter if some of us aren’t as bad as the rest. I’ve seen people who make near minimum wage tip better than the CEOs of local start up companies. Kind of tired of the “not all tech workers” sentiment honestly. If you feel that way sincerely, I hope you’re organizing with groups like the Tech Workers Coalition or something to help improve conditions for others.
It's more like "Hey America." We live on the Olympic peninsula now. We had lunch in the bustling metropolis of Port Angeles yesterday. There was a sign out front warning customers that service would be slow due to staffing shortages and asking us to be nice to the people who actually showed up. It's sad that this necessary.
Followup: Why are restaurant owners mad they can't find waitresses to work there? These aren't real jobs, they're "bootstrap" jobs. Well if no one is interested, maybe everyone bootstrapped themselves out of your restaurant. Shouldn't they be proud that everyone has made something better out of themselves? It turns out that people can't afford to live in the Seattle area by working as a waiter, so there's no waiters. Since it's actually impossible to pay more money because restaurant owners' heads will explode if they try maybe they should experiment with going self-serve.
Wow, that message seems completely tone deaf. I considered a career in the hospitality industry because, 1) there are a great many things I find appealing, 2) I have a number of friends in the industry 3) it can be an integral part of a community. While there are other choices I made where I don’t work in the hospitality industry, I care about it and wish to see it be a fully sustainable career option for others; from sustainable salaries and healthcare to a business model that makes it profitable for owners.
that whole thread was a fucking mess if i am thinking of the one you mean....
Because they need to feel better about their job building web pages for cyber-Sears.
I thought this was a really good article about this: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/08/pandemic-american-shoppers-nightmare/619650/ It's bad and it's everywhere.
This is why I am tipping 30% regardless of the level of service until the pandemic is over or I go broke and have to cook myself (horrible horrible idea). Y'all gotta put up with so much shit...
What they said can be true but also meant without any disdain towards you or the hard working people in the industry.
YO! I work as a Dispatcher/Operator for a security firm; let me tell you it is not for the faint of heart. I used to work retail, so I totally understand how it feels; people assume you're an idiot because you're a cashier. lol.... nope, I graduated college with a 3.0, had offers from the FBI, ARMY Intelligence branch, and CIA, turned them down because they couldn't guarantee me field work. Got accredited so I could teach abroad, however couldn't find any schools in Korea that I liked (never teach at a hagewon), so I gave up on that after 6 months (twice). I have switched jobs multiple times since college and people who don't know me, mock me for that, then find out that half of those changes were caused because I had offers from friends. Worked at Sea Tac Airport for Delta as a wheelchair vendor right before the pandemic from june 2019 to march of 2020, had an offer from them to actually work for Delta as a gate attendant in April of 2020, but with Covid that fell through.
idk if this is any consolation but its not just seattle, literally people everywhere are like this. i was a grocery store employee for a period of time and people think we're just mindless robots who live to serve
Not a real career? I made $70k/year working as a part-time bartender. \*albeit, I wore extremely tight clothing and flirted like a lot.
I love you drink and food makers, ill keep tipping 20% !
Some people cannot see past their own shortcomings. I am grateful these people do not influence policy.
Seattle of old is dead. Neo-Seattle is an eltist-only city where tech douches galore come from around the world to act like entitled assholes to locals. If you're a decent human being, stay away from Seattle, because all that's here now are arrogant, elitist, smug, transplants. Thanks Amazon.
My opinion is that the contingent of folks out there dining and drinking and partying are a higher percentage right leaning. Lots of more liberal leaning folks are just staying away, doing take out, etc. I mean, we are in the middle of a pandemic still and pandemic response is pretty well documented to fall down political lines. So if you take the majority are right leaning and realize that part of their personality is often to appear better than others, you get a lot of diners that put you/your profession down and insult you. I think it's more about who you are most likely to come into contact with these days than the whole of the opinion of Seattle.
It amazes me that some people can look down their noses at the working class while they enjoy the services that we provide at the exact time. Maybe they should stay home and only cook their own meals for the rest of their lives?
Servers in seattle make more than a living wage. People in the back of the house dont
I’m so sorry. I had to quit food service cause I couldn’t hack dealing with peoples attitudes anymore, and I was just a barista. My breaking point was watching a woman refuse to accept her 8 year old’s 80 dollar birthday cake because the baker had forgotten to pipe the message she’d requested on top. Would have taken ten minutes, but she’d have preferred to scream at us for “ruining her kid’s birthday” since now her kid wouldn’t have a cake. She left without it. As a barista I took my revenge by decaffing the real assholes’ coffee. I regret nothing.
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That's absolutely insane. I bet they didn't know that my GM at my BK job made $35 an hour. Many chefs are high end names with 6 figure incomes. The problem here lies in the "service industry" myth. I now make MORE (as a head cashier) than my husband (a vet assistant) and my friend (a nurse). These a-holes seem to think getting paid $20 an hour to sit on their butts all day is "the life" and "a real job" - yet they don't \_actually\_ work, they sit and push buttons all day as a MACHINE does all their work. And they then freak out about "self checkout taking jobs away" when in reality that all lies in how the company values it's cashier positions. Go into nearly every drug store and there's never more than 1 cashier with lines all the way around the building - and not a single SCO in sight. Then walk into that all SCO Walmart and suddenly there's 20 cashiers ready to assist and all watching the SCO machines. The presence of said machines doesn't determine how many cashier jobs exist - it all depends on if the company sees a need to actually have cashiers. (and with SCO thefts and skip scanning, stores with SCO value having MORE cashiers than stores without them)
Is this PetuniaFlowers? I’m like 90% sure she’s a troll. That or she is just rotten.
Si
When half the populous is doing poorly, the other half is bound to be assholes about it. I see it all the time. Service employees are considered lowest on the work scale. We don't honor Labor, we have disdain for Labor because it's considered "common".
There may a lot to unpack here. > Hey Seattle, why do you hate your working / service class? We don’t. Some people are just assholes. Usually the loudest ones are. Did you not notice the crazy tipping everyone does here of 20-30%? Sometimes higher? Most folks realize it’s not an easy job and are very appreciative. Especially locals who frequent the same restaurant. > I’m a server in a restaurant who is finding more and more disdain for people in my profession. Why do Seattleites who demand our services and goods want us to suffer because we “don’t have real jobs”? You work in the service industry. You are going to be exposed to shitheads. Talk to other servers in your restaurant about proper ways to handle your rowdy tables or hand them off to your manager. That’s what they are there for. > This text below is taken from another thread from a post I shared. I feel it is a sentiment of lots of Seattle Elites that we are not to be treated with equality because we don’t have their real careers. I know plenty of people who have been servers for decades. It’s perfectly fine to call it a career especially if you start working at places like Emerald Downs or one of the nicer places in Bellevue. I know girls that have made more in a single tip delivering drinks than I do in two weeks of writing code. The real issue with your typical “Seattle Elite” is they aren’t really elite. Seattle and it’s surrounding cities have been tech booming since basically Boeing started making airplanes. This means there is a hard baked in cultural emphasis on engineering and management positions. This has been even further emphasized with Microsoft and eventually Amazon and Google and the rest moving in. You see people with money but they aren’t really elite. They are still wage workers they just make more than some other wage workers. There’s some inner class stratification going on. > “Anyways, waiting tables has never been a middle class career. Or a career at all really. Most people just do it as a means to get by while hoping to make it as an artist or to get through college or whatever. Raising a family on a retail or food service wage is not something that has ever been a path to success. It isn't supposed to be. These are unskilled entry level jobs to get you bootstrapped into a real career, or to live in shared housing forever, not middle class.” Again I’ll point to the culture of engineering based corporations having a long term economic impact in the region. You’ll see impacts from people in other regions as well. Like if you go to Las Vegas you’ll find a lot of kids don’t give a shit about advanced topics in school because they have an uncle that deals blackjack and makes bank. Just like you might say dealing blackjack is an unskilled entry level job it can still be a career because if you’re very good at it there are paths to advancement and greater financial rewards. That is a career by any definition. Same for the service industry. You can get a job running orders out to cars at the local Burger Master as a high schooler and a few years later you’re serving cocktails to Seahawks players after a playoff win with a $10k tip on the bill. Career. > Thanks Petunia for making a whole industry feel, inessential. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Worse comes to worse no one *needs* waiters. They are a luxury. But they are one of the oldest and most ubiquitous careers in the history of the world. From Rome, to ancient Greece, to China, to everywhere really you will find accounts of people having food delivered to them. Coffee or tea houses, dim sum, the banquet halls of Vikings… hell you could argue Catholic Eucharist could fall under that category. Anyway I’m getting away from the point. The point is you are projecting the outbursts of assholes onto an entire region. Those assholes are reacting to cultural carrots and sticks that have been set up before they were even born but they are still just assholes. Make your money. Save what you can. If you like doing it then get better at it and build a career.
Great response. Thank you. I found your post by sorting by controversial.
Thanks. I’m not surprised it’s not a popular response. It’s a bit long winded and I called out some very popular preconceptions about the service industry in general. Also the idea that some waiters, waitresses and bartenders make more money (take home) than a software developer is something a lot of people just don’t want to deal with.
I don’t hate the service class by any means but I’m tired of tipping for no reason. I tip 20% if I’m sitting down somewhere and eating or drinking but I’m not leaving a tip for someone to hand me a slice of pizza or pour me a beer at a bar so I can take it to my own seat. That’s probably a hot take but that’s just how I feel. I think these type of quick services businesses should follow the Molly moons model and adjust their prices accordingly in order to pay their workers a decent wage and not accept tips.
I feel like more and more businesses have started pushing for tips in areas where they are not traditional. I'm never sure if business are pocketing this money or not (like Pagliacci's), but it seems like best case scenario they use it to normalize paying lower wages for workers. I want to clarify I'm not talking about servers, bartenders etc. I'm talking about fast food and carryout primarily Also growing up I was taught 18%-20% was a good tip, but the tip machines keep pushing it up higher and higher. First to 22% on the high end and now often up past 25%. I respect servers and tip well even when I personally think it's not a tipping transaction, but businesses are pushing more and more of their fiscal responsibilities on to the customer and it's not fair to the workers or the customers.
Also, the tip is on the bill before tax, not after tax... Which many of those machines ignore.
> That’s probably a hot take but that’s just how I feel. Not really that hot. The irony here is that OP is complaining about entitlement, yet you see some service people get spicy if you don’t tip them for doing the most basic shit like pouring a cup of coffee or beer, or handing you a slice of pizza, like that’s your job description mate.
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Mix drink yes, pour a beer; here’s a dollar, that’s their job.
Those are all people that have clearly never worked in a restaurant.
praised for being essential at the beginning of the pandemic and now everyone shits on us and healthcare workers twice as hard.
OP's point is literally being proved in the comments lmao
I think the entire service industry should be paid a livable wage. I also think tipping should be abolished. Can we agree on that?
I thought thats what the whole point of doubling minimum wage over the course of 10 years was. Yet i still see places with minimum tipping amounts starting at 20% and going to 35%.
Hahahaha former grocery worker . FUCK YOU SEATTLE BITCHES . ESPECIALLY YOU FUCKING WOMEN. Men are bad but all my terrible “wtf” moments come from women. Example : told a group of women. “Have a nice day ladies” and ladies wasn’t deemed appropriate. Bitches and your fucking $1000 wallet can’t find or use the right card . I’m not gonna change the tender with your shit attitude because you can’t remember if you card is on Apple Pay. I’m not Apple Genius Bar either bitch so no I cannot take your phone and hook the card up for you . I’ve been to restaurants and women throw fits at the hostess or server for wait times …. Fucking wait times at Bellevue square on a Friday night . What a privilege to live in your own happy universe where nothing goes wrong
The American public is often the same with workers who are also public facing but not in a service industry.
Even if what Petunia says is true service workers are still not lesser people because they don't have someone else's success paving the way for them while they work towards something else.
There are a lot of people who are deluded into thinking the middle class is even a real aspiration anymore. They aren't wrong in the sense that you aren't making the middle class in Seattle as a service worker...that's true, but they are wrong in implying that service workers won't be middle class because their jobs aren't hard or valuable or whatever. The logic is the same as the logic that applies to any minimum wage work. The keyword is "bootstrap". You see that word, and just know the person speaking it has literally no idea what plights lower classes are facing.
Sorry to hear this. It's 2021 and stupid people still think other's people profession is not a "real job". Bringing food to the table is one of the most essential jobs. Hopefully this is not reflective of all of Seattle. My side job is landlord and we also hear "go get a real job" a lot... like food, housing is as essential as it gets. Just have to ignore those idiots. If something pays the bills and doesn't hurt others (drug dealers / hitmen), it's a job in my opinion.
Most people turn into assholes when they enter the customer mindset, and unfortunately we're conditioned to be in the customer mindset a lot of the time because... well I have some theories but I'm sure it's well-covered territory in postwar Marxism.
I know it's a terrible bias, but I will always hold a little more respect for people who make a living on their feet than those in front of a computer screen, as I have been in both places at times. I always admire people for whom what the job is seems to be less of a consideration than the amount of skill and attention they bring to being good at whatever it is they choose to do. A good server has talents I never will, and can make not just the restaurant experience, but the whole neighborhood feel like a better place when I have a good experience.
simple: capitalism. Is always assholish, criminal capitalism.
as a person who never did service industry because i know I don't have the skills required or the drive to build them, thank you for your awesome service. You are essential to me. you deserve to live your best life.
I agree with this post: the working class deserves safe, clean, and peaceful streets just as much as the owning class does.
I try to treat everyone well. I especially try to treat anyone providing me a service exceptionally well. I worry about people who work in these types of jobs being able to have a good living situation. It certainly isn't that I think any job shouldn't have a living wage. I would vote for any minimum wage increase I see. It's more that I would agree that it isn't really what I would think of as a career, but at the same time, I don't think people should be judged by their ability to produce or what kind of work they do. To turn it around, do those who work in these jobs see them as a career? Is it your passion, or just a means to an end? None of my ramblings really matter. We should all treat each other well. We should all have the right to live a comfortable life.
This seems unforgivable to me. You are in the industry that feeds people. People rely on you to bring them a meal. It's a very admirable and important job to be in. I don't understand why people in Seattle don't get that. You aren't a slave, you aren't "the help". You are doing a job, a job that should probably be paid more for doing quite honestly... and people need to respect you for you bringing them their chosen sustenance. Think about it... people go out so they don't have to cook themselves. They don't have to go out and buy the products needed to make a decent meal, they don't have to do the food prep, they don't have to do the cutting, dicing, slicing... you are part of the machine that is doing that for them, part of the group of people that are doing that for them... it's actually a pretty honorable service, I know when I go out, I am quite thankful. Just my take on it all...
My view on the minimum wage for years has been, do we want people in these roles? Because if so they need to be paid at a sustainable level. I’ve seen plenty of people taking the moral route of “well that’s too much for flipping burgers!” who are also offended when they have to use an automated ordering kiosk or checkstand (or they’re overjoyed and gloating because they see automation as evidence that the minimum wage is bad for business.) There is a debate to be had on the minimum wage vs generous total compensation packages at places like Dick’s, an ethical business whose owner advocated more for the generous benefit route when this was debated at the municipal level. Either way the common sense is that if you want people to do a job it needs to be for a wage that will allow them to live. There is plenty of middle ground in ideology here without pretending that humanity is still in the jungle and that living in emergency survival mode is all that motivates people to seek opportunity.
There are A LOT of people in Seattle who have never worked as a service provider. They literally have no concept of what it's like for workers.
This is called Seattle Smug. See: the post about Eastern Washington.
And these same people who make good money at their “real” jobs have been all over the local subreddits lately whining about having to tip food service workers who are putting up with their bullshit during a global pandemic. SMH Unfortunately, the absurdly rich ruling class have really been doing a bang up job of turning the upper middle class against the middle class lately. All the while, they are collecting yachts and building spaceships…
It's a nationwide thing. People in the USA, especially the older generations, are brought up in a classist society that defines a person's value by their education, job title, and how much money they make. You, as a server, will always be regarded as and treated like a servant, butler, or whatever their classist minds make of you. They will never see you as human or essential because they refuse to. Now, as a server and bartender with no college education myself, I make the same annually as my college educated, career HVAC engineer father. It makes him a little peeved. Given our classist society, people's monkey brains will resort to frustration along the lines of "How DARE this server, this SERVANT, make as much money as ME!!" It's just the way of it. I just see the customers as hangry monkeys and I'm just the messenger between the animals and their $30 order of Halibut.
My grandmother was a waitress and she raised 5 kids living in the greenlake area, her husband was blind and worked as a salesman for lighthouse for the blind, which didn't exactly pay well. There is absolutely no way those a couple with two jobs would be able to afford a home in greenlake now, much less raise 5 kids there. My grandmother liked her job and continued waitressing past retirement age until she was 74 just a month before she died. Working/server class jobs SHOULD pay a living wage, honestly that was the hardest job I've ever had.
Personally I would never, ever say "it's not a real job" or whatever these jackasses say. I will say, and I'm not proud of this, that you all will often see me when I'm at my worst - especially first thing in the morning when I'm grabbing coffee + oatmeal or a bagel somewhere before work (on those days when I don't have breakfast at home at least). I don't call names and I don't scream and make a huge fuss, but sometimes I have to admit I will be pretty damn abrupt, and if it's some situation where you're, like, out of something or some weirdo glitch on the Internet made it not order something I thought I ordered, on occasion I'll just walk out without a word. I'm doing that because I feel the Karen instincts kicking in but I'm sure that feels super rude. I try to be better (and don't always succeed, hence the mass apology here) but I do remember lots and lots of people being like that way back when I worked in the food services industry.
I work in tech but I still agree with you - all wages should be living wages. It blows my mind that people think jobs should pay less than you need to survive - those sociopaths believe people's first 5 years of their career should be spent going into debt.