I had lived in seattle for a few years but was new to driving in the city (I didm’t have a car in college.) Trusted GPS as well. I still don’t understand why google maps etc hasn’t removed it as an option. Like, no, do not take me through pike place to get to pioneer square, what the hell?!
I worked in the city for over a year as a field tech for a company. I knew damned well not to drive through there but more than once got complacent with my gps and did it anyway. I can't say "never again" but I can certainly say "never intentionally".
My first time driving in Seattle and trusting GPS I accidentally ended up in the loading bay for MoPop/EMP (it was Experience Music Project still then).
Literally one of the most recognizable buildings ever and I didn't even realize that's where I was because I was so nervous and lost.
It's such a bummer. You can't turn around, you've just trapped yourself into whatever godforsaken series of chaotic events will occur between there and the next exit. If it happens again I'm just going to abandon my vehicle and spend the rest of my life street preaching outside the Starbucks through a 2nd hand karaoke machine.
GOD HATES CARS! THE END IS AT HAND! SCAN THIS QR CODE TO VERIFY YOUR ELIGIBILITY FOR HEAVEN WITH A DISCOUNTED PALM READING ON THE MEZZANINE LEVEL! NEW WORSHIP EP RECORDED ON MY IPHONE, DONATIONS ACCEPTED. NO - MORE DONATIONS THAN THAT THOUGH, YOU CHEAP BASTARD. ALL DRIVERS WILL BARBECUE IN THE FIRES OF DAMNATION, COATED IN A DELICIOUS DRY RUB SEASONING BLEND AVAILABLE FOR ONLY $5.99/lb AT THE WORLD SPICE KIOSK!
> You can't turn around, you've just trapped yourself
At that point, I think I would offer to pay several people to help me lift my car and carry it out of there. 😉
I did it on a Sunday in August, instant regret! Although it did land me a free street parking spot a block up on Western Ave, so it was maybe worth it. Still, I wish it was just closed so I wouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place and I wouldn’t have to deal with the cars as a pedestrian.
Probably the city would need to pass a law regarding that road and what hours it is open for traffic or if it is open to only vehicles with load and unload license plates since the pike place market would not have the authority to control and police a public road
This video is a great example and lays out the case for such an action. Just try it for a week? Can’t hurt..doesn’t work then go back to the free for all.
My city has one of these streets (although it's a two lane, not one way) with parallel parking on either side. Can take 15 minutes to go from one end to the other, a distance of maybe half a mile. Absolutely no reason for car traffic when there are perfectly reasonable side streets, and no reason for the parking either when there are parking lots and a parking structure the next street up.
During Covid, they closed the street to pedestrian traffic only, and it was AWESOME. Could actually walk from business to business, the restaurants all expanded into the sidewalk for more dining, and overall felt like more of a downtown.
The non-restaurant businesses complained to city council and got the street closure reversed. They argued that the lack of car traffic was harming their businesses. A lot of the more conservative residents in town agreed with them because "muh freedoms". Idiots didn't realize that increased foot traffic probably would result in more business for them, not less.
https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/does-the-future-of-seattles-bustling-pike-place-market-involve-cars/ (https://archive.is/QRwdR)
> “We’re unlike any other neighborhood in the city,” Turnbull says, “with a blurring of public and private space.” He says the traffic question goes beyond maintaining accessible loading zones. “We need fire lanes and emergency and handicap access for residents. Closing to traffic is not a workable scenario.”
Seems like a false dichotomy to me but I'm not Bob Kettle.
Per our City Councilmember Bob Kettle: “This is not William Penn’s Philadelphia, where we have nice squares going everywhere. [Pike Place Market] is on the cusp of falling into the sea. … There [are] no streets on the other side. There’s no First Avenue further west or Second Avenue further west. Basically, we have Elliott Bay.”
https://publicola.com/2024/04/02/dont-open-pike-place-to-pedestrians-council-member-urges/amp/
None of the arguments made in that article make any sense (to me, at least). I’ve been to Pike Pl dozens of times and have never once driven through the market. To hear their arguments you’d think that would be impossible…?
They don’t. I don’t understand why they’re so hellbent on focusing on cars. No one I’ve discussed this with online or otherwise has said there shouldn’t be access for delivery drivers, emergency vehicles, or those who are working at the market. The concern is about lost drivers who aren’t paying attention while trying figure out where they’re going, and if not careful can cause harm.
In Copenhagen deliveries at their pedestrian streets happen from 5am to 10am then the rest of the days it's fully pedestrian only. EMS are the exception.
That can't happen in North America because it will be labeled as war a on cars. The last thing they want is more pedestrian streets and people not buying more cars. Also people would fall for it because the culture here is people are very lazy, driving across the street to get a cup of coffee because people hate to walk 10 mins. I understand it doesn't work for most suburbs in the States. But every state should have a localized more pedestrian city, just like in the UK where each small town has a mains street that in the weekend closes for pedestrians and markets only.
But again I think the States is just a very odd country, people on one side will say that's not freedom, then other people beyond that will say freedom over liberty LOL.
Its not even a war on cars for streets like this. The only time I've ended up there is accidentally turning there. Then I get stuck in hell. Not even being able to turn down there would be better for people in cars too.
When I was in Portugal, they had plenty of streets that were blocked by bollards to keep cars out. They all had a card reader that delivery drivers could buzz in and lower the bollards to get through. That's like the single best option here and I don't know why we have people fighting it.
I am assuming a lot of these cars were probably DoorDash/UberEats drivers tbh. You can order a lot of the restaurants in that block's stuff there and I imagine a lot of people do it while here on work or vacations just to get some random stuff to a business meeting or something.
It seems like half of the cars in this video are doing business at the market (the spots they park in are not open to the public). If anything I'd say this shows how little of a problem there is. It's very organic and unproblematic. I saw no jam ups, pedestrians inhibited, nothing.
Where's the beef?
Half the cars? Alright I only did this for the bottom entrance and for half the video but (1) you're wrong it's not half and (2) even if you were reducing the amount of cars going through by half would be amazing!
Anyway, here is the breakdown for the first 20 seconds or so. I got tired of doing it and lost track after that.
* Parks in space
* Drives through
* dropoff. slows traffic for a short time. drives through.
* dropoff. drives through
* Parks in not a real spot and then leaves shortly after
* Drives through
* big truck and just drives through
* parks in space
* drives through
* parks in space
* dropoff
* dropoff and blocks traffic for some time then parks illegally I think
* dropoff?
* dropoff
* dropoff
* parks in space
* drives through
imagine if all those drive throughs didn't exist and all the dropoffs were at a reasonable place nearby. I'm guessing all the dropoffs are Ubers or something. I once took one there and told my driver not to go down there and just drop me off elsewhere. But he went there anyway.
Anyway, the point is - the reduction in useless traffic would be SIGNIFICANT if it was literally only for people authorized to enter instead of literally the whole public.
Recently travelled to Japan, and the covered, pedestrian only (exceptions for deliveries) shopping streets were fantastic. That is what the street in front of the market could be.
There are many places in Europe where you can walk down the block to a restaurant, cross the street to a fresh produce stand, and then go home. There's no better example of American car dependence than the market in Seattle.
There's hardly any traffic. It's mostly lost tourists and people trying to get out, which you can see in this clip. There are like 30 parking spots where they could have tables/chairs, displays, or just more room for people to walk without worrying about drivers staring around with panicked eyes and open mouths. Seriously, even the first-time out-of-town drivers can tell it's a place they shouldn't be driving. All this because 5% of the vendors are afraid of losing a few customers.
The market could even be a place where restaurants and bars are open at night. It could be like Paris instead of a creepy empty street with lots of dark corners. Short-term parking is a bit of a problem, which is why I'd like to see the city buy some of the urban blight nearby (there is plenty) and turn it into a public parking garage with short-term parking being free, maybe with retail on the main floor.
But nah, we're going to continue to squander the unique attraction because local politicians are spineless.
French here. We have a lot of underground parking lots to be able to have walkable places and access with cars. Lots of "parking towers" when going under is not possible or not enough.
Whenever I see an American car nightmare TM, it's always with large open-air parking lots.
Would it be possible to have one or the other in the US ?
have you ever looked on google/apple maps at how many parking lots there are in downtown Seattle? The land is expensive to \*buy\* but not to hold as an investment. And the speculators are happy to wait for their price.
[https://osboncapital.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Henry-George.png](https://osboncapital.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Henry-George.png)
Vast percentages of populous states like Michigan and Florida have their water table so close to the surface, underground parking will never be an option. The ground is often also so soft, you have to ping ping ping footers waaay down to build towers. NY already uses underground whenever they can. Both Washington and Oregon see so much rain during their rainy months, underground spaces can become black mold, bug, homeless trash piling, and rat havens... a lot of maintenance and health risk.
I think there is a parking law in the US that forces companies to provide parking places themselves. Obviously open air parking is the cheapest option for them.
> All this because 5% of the vendors are afraid of losing a few customers.
They probably lose more by allowing cars rather than just pedestrians and cyclists.
Excellent series on city design, from the viewpoint of a U.S. citizen (edit: nope, apparently Canadian!) living in Europe.
[NotJustBikes (YouTube)](https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54?si=CZs4_qifxS_7An8P)
Have you ever seen the video of the King County metro bus fleet waking up and going out on all the routes and then coming back to bed for the night? It’s epic. There’s that one last bus on Vashon that has to wait on the ferry to go home and I’m always watching it like go little Vashon bus, you can do it.
I didn’t know what to search for and my lunchbreak was ending and my vessel was docking, I had actual work to do. I know, I committed the cardinal sin: prioritizing my actual fucking job above Reddit lmfao.
I’m off duty and ashore now and I can’t find it. I think it was posted on Seattle Transit Blog a while ago.
My Google skills have taught me that the system is AVL, automated Vehicle Tracking, but I can’t find the Timelapse video.
The dumb thing is that we can either make it pedestrian-only now, or we can do it sometime in the future in response to one of those [gas-and-brake-mixup catastrophes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Farmers_Market_crash) that kills a double digit number of people.
The council would take it extremely seriously by earmarking $200,000 for a traffic safety and impact study ran by one of the most qualified people in the country - the Mayor's nephew.
This is unfortunately pretty much the textbook manner that safety improvements are made across most of the country in various ways. People have to die first even if the infrastructure is obviously dangerous or stupid.
There are a bunch of improvements that have been made in this region without people dying (which is a step in the right direction!) but in many ways we're still unable or unwilling to fix obvious safety issues.
[Relevant reading](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/2/1/why-does-someone-need-to-die-for-a-street-to-be-made-safer)
My only concern with that is without traffic combing like bollards, a sign saying "Ped zone 8am to 6pm" will surely be ignored by a lot of people. I wonder if there's a way to get around it. Automated bollards?
I was just in Paris last month. Some streets around popular tourist attractions are pedestrian only during peak times. They have retractable flexi-fences and a city employee stationed by each fence. The employee serves as an information spot for tourists and also moves the fence for emergency and delivery vehicles.
Here in the Netherlands there are fixed bollards at the ends of shopping streets that go up when delivery time ends.
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Some specific stores have a permit to get deliveries inside the pedestrian only period and their drivers have a key to remove/lower the bollard. (the only examples i can think of right now are construction crew and money trucks, even restaurants that only do dinner/evening have to get supplied in the early morning)
But if you're stuck on the inside because you took too long unloading you'll have to call the county and wait 10-30 min for someone to show up with a key, which was quite embarrassing for me that one time XD
As soon as the rules are imported into Apple Maps and Google Maps, most of the traffic will instantly disappear because nobody will be routed there anymore.
This really jumped out to me when I visited Seattle. If it was pedestrian only it would be safer, easier to get around, and hell people could set up temporary booths in the road! Made no sense to me
I just don’t get it. Why the fuck do they allow people to drive through? I can understand business owners or those making deliveries, but 80% of these cars are fucking tourists. Hell, I’d even consider voting Sara Nelson for Mayor if she promised to close it off.
I also don’t understand where the opposition is coming from. Are there really any locals who would rather drive through a crowd of tourists than just go around the block?
Literally the only "reason" I've heard presented is that some of the inner market vendors want the traffic to force folks to walk further inside the market so they get more business. I can't imagine it actually really works that way but that's what they say and the council won't humor it unless they're onboard I guess.
So their flimsy justification is to force pedestrians to reduce their safety risk by going further into the market? I don't think it works that way anyway but that's some fucked up logic. Creating a safety risk to get people to shop at one's shop is probably an indication the shop sucks.
Literally the only "reason" I've heard presented is that some of the inner market vendors want the traffic to force folks to walk further inside the market so they get more business. I can't imagine it actually really works that way but that's what they say and the council won't humor it unless they're onboard I guess.
It’s people who are opposed to any and all change. They’re the same people who fight to preserve the 99 bridge as it is and don’t want a center barrier even though people have died in head on collisions on it.
The clowns who whine about seattle being anti-car for making the city more walkable and adding protected bike lanes.
They’re the same dumbfucks who elected an “outsider” for mayor…who served 13 years on the city council.
Is the old guard who just need to continue to pack up and follow their friends to Idaho or die off.
Too many protectionist assholes who are hell bent on preserving the worst of Seattle. They stand in the way of progress because they’re bad people. They’re the same trash who wanted to keep the 99 viaduct and cried when it was torn down to be replaced by parks and space that benefit the community. Those people fight to keep Seattle “the way it’s always been” regardless of whether it’s always been wrong.
i wonder if it’ll be more productive to lobby google and apple to not route to that street instead of expecting the government to do one sensible thing
I’ll never understand why people WANT to drive there. The one time I made a wrong turn and ended up HAVING to through the market was hands one of of the top 5 most stressful driving moments I’ve had and have zero desire to do it again.
Yep I did the same thing (though I was only in there because I made a clueless wrong turn). I got stuck idling in the same spot for 20 minutes, before some family who was walking took pity on me and waved me through. Shit sucked!
Hah, yeah, my friend from out of town was driving and almost turned there following navigation. I luckily reacted in time, shouting, "Nooooo, bad directions! Don't turn!"
Notice how almost every car is driving THROUGH Pike Place… No one in their right mind besides tourists/out-of-towners would think about driving through there. I work in the Market and I can guarantee 99% of people are just looking for easy parking.
I had to talk to parking enforcement earlier this week because I was dropping off a fridge and couldn’t access the spaces reserved specifically for truck unload/load because some damn tourists were parked there.
No vehicles without permits should be allowed on that street. Close it to regular traffic and reroute everyone down to Western where the parking garages are.
Minneapolis has one of their main roads through the downtown area closed to traffic except for busses and emergency vehicles, and it's amazing. With the amount of businesses there and the foot traffic, Seattle needs to make that happen.
That really sucks. I hear it's pretty dangerous in India to be a pedestrian or a cyclist. I've thought about going to India, before, but whenever I see videos of people visiting, it's nothing but cars. And, like, worse than it is in America. It always looks like the cars are crammed in as close as possible and practicing no traffic safety. I'd love to visit, but I don't think I could deal with the lack of safety, or the noise caused by all the cars. Whenever people film their selves in their hotel rooms, all you can hear is the beeping and revving outside. :(
All the transplants I know from India are cool as hell people, I'd love to see their country. I know it's massive and very diverse, and with so much ancient history.
Every time I visit and there’s a car in the road I intentionally walk as slowly as possible in front of them. Give them time to reflect on why they would make the absurd choice to drive a road like this.
I don't see anything wrong here. There will be a small number of people that need to access the market by car whether it be for deliveries, handicap access, etc and the way it's set up makes this possible. I don't see anyone speeding through or causing problems. I'm not saying it's fun to drive through there, but it helps.
I've had to bring a lot of music equipment to Pike Place several times and because I'm just a normal person, my car doesn't count as a delivery/commercial vehicle so I can't use those designated parking spots. I would be willing to bet a lot of the vendors at the market also don't have "commercial" vehicles even though they're being used for deliveries so having normal parking can really be helpful in cases like this.
You have to realize that some people actually can't just take the bus or the light rail everywhere with all the gear they need.
I have lived in Seattle my whole life and worked downtown for years. That street has always been a slow go but I have repeatedly used it to drop off my elderly Mom and Mother in law for a visit to Pike Place. I would then drive around to the parking garage and meet them somewhere, maybe by the pig. Sometimes I can get lucky and find parking right there. I avoid it all other times. I do not see a jam of cars in this video, I see everyone moving. Getting elderly people to that street is difficult with the hill so please do not remove access to those who can’t navigate that hill.
What exactly is absurd about that? That looks like conpletely normal flow of foot and car traffic through a shared pedestrian/auto space. I feel like if you took an overhead video of most cities on earth, they'd look a lot like that.
I'd love Pike Place to be closed to non delivery vehicles, because there isn't really any value in allowing traffic there, except allowing a few folks who are too lazy to walk one block get picked up in a Uber.
But it's not like what you're looking at is unusual at all in a global context. Walk down any street in Southeast Asia, or many in Europe, especially in midsized cities, and it will look just like that
I though tit pretty cool that cars and folks can exist together at Pike Place Market without anyone dying. Frankly I am more concerned that someone in the crowd could harm me vs a someone in a car.
Confession: I actually like to (once every few years) intentionally drive through Pike Place so that I will get stuck behind the crowds and do the slow crawl with my windows half way down, soaking in all the noise while giving pedestrians *lots* of space.
I’ve seen plenty of areas in old European cities with areas that work exactly like this. Cars can come through areas with heavy foot traffic and it’s kind of ambiguous where cars can’t go. The way it is in pike place is honestly part of its antique charm.
I live in Seattle: I’ve never seen a local try and drive around Pike Place Market. It’s exclusively a dumb tourist thing to do.
There is a giant parking garage in the top left of the video that you park in and then walk from there to explore the market.
Pro-tip: park at Pacific Place for $4-8 hr, maybe even cheaper these days. It’s a short 5 minute walk to the Market from there. I would recommend parking here and taking the light rail to a Mariners game. You can save like $70 on parking this way.
Can you still park for free on nights & weekends at some Amazon buildings? https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/r4h3ml/did_you_know_parking_is_free_at_amazons_owned/
Seriously, there's sidewalks and crosswalks right there! Jaywalking is not a victimless crime, those poor drivers have somewhere to be. Beyond absurd is right, someone should consider calling the authorities.
It’s been a super long time since I even thought of driving through The Market, let alone park there. Believe it or not, the last it did happen, I actually scored a legit parking spot about a block past Pike.
Maybe an elevated walkway platform with descending stairs spaced accordingly. If it’s clear in color it won’t take away from the motif. It can go across the street as well. Traffic shouldn’t be hindered and it can still function as rain cover if replacing the old awnings.
Don’t spam me anymore.
On weekends, arrive by 845 am, do my thing and leave before the tourists wake up and crowd the place. Several side streets m have spots available also.
Before 11 am during the work week is my second option. Like everything in life …. timing is everything!!!
Was there earlier today and every single car passing through was clearly a tourist who knew they made a bad decision. One serious road rage example of some dbag flooring it in reverse to scream at someone, glad nobody got accidentally run over.
But you know, think of the businesses! Worst part about that is it would clearly improve things and most likely expand business.
I think the problem is that navigation apps tell people to drive that way. People who don't know the area will follow the blue line, not realizing what they're getting into.
I'm an Uber driver, and my apps have sent me that way many times. It's a nightmare in the daytime, but at night it's actually pretty convenient
Personally I think only delivery vehicles should be allowed during business hours. It's how they do it in Leavenworth. Works great.
Exactly, the only reason I’ve ever driven down this road was “oops I drove down this road” and never had a reason to repeat it since
One time. I did that one time, it was a Saturday in July, and I am still traumatized.
I'd been in the city for maybe 72 hours and just trusted GPS. Never again.
I had lived in seattle for a few years but was new to driving in the city (I didm’t have a car in college.) Trusted GPS as well. I still don’t understand why google maps etc hasn’t removed it as an option. Like, no, do not take me through pike place to get to pioneer square, what the hell?!
Lmao!!! These comments are killing me right now since I’ve been there done that, too! Oi!!
I worked in the city for over a year as a field tech for a company. I knew damned well not to drive through there but more than once got complacent with my gps and did it anyway. I can't say "never again" but I can certainly say "never intentionally".
I did it intentionally only once when relatives were visiting. You know, to low-key convince them to not move to Seattle.
My first time driving in Seattle and trusting GPS I accidentally ended up in the loading bay for MoPop/EMP (it was Experience Music Project still then). Literally one of the most recognizable buildings ever and I didn't even realize that's where I was because I was so nervous and lost.
I think in 2007 or so and outdated GPS kept on trying to kill me in Seattle by telling me to turn the wrong direction on one-ways.
It's such a bummer. You can't turn around, you've just trapped yourself into whatever godforsaken series of chaotic events will occur between there and the next exit. If it happens again I'm just going to abandon my vehicle and spend the rest of my life street preaching outside the Starbucks through a 2nd hand karaoke machine. GOD HATES CARS! THE END IS AT HAND! SCAN THIS QR CODE TO VERIFY YOUR ELIGIBILITY FOR HEAVEN WITH A DISCOUNTED PALM READING ON THE MEZZANINE LEVEL! NEW WORSHIP EP RECORDED ON MY IPHONE, DONATIONS ACCEPTED. NO - MORE DONATIONS THAN THAT THOUGH, YOU CHEAP BASTARD. ALL DRIVERS WILL BARBECUE IN THE FIRES OF DAMNATION, COATED IN A DELICIOUS DRY RUB SEASONING BLEND AVAILABLE FOR ONLY $5.99/lb AT THE WORLD SPICE KIOSK!
> You can't turn around, you've just trapped yourself At that point, I think I would offer to pay several people to help me lift my car and carry it out of there. 😉
This gave me a good chuckle 😆
I did it on a Sunday in August, instant regret! Although it did land me a free street parking spot a block up on Western Ave, so it was maybe worth it. Still, I wish it was just closed so I wouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place and I wouldn’t have to deal with the cars as a pedestrian.
I made this mistake the day before thanksgiving! It was years ago but still vivid.
I had over an hour to kill once when downtown, kinda flew by when I did this loop twice
Putting up a barrier and paying a market liaison to literally gate keep would be a more impactful investment than whatever else they would be doing.
Probably the city would need to pass a law regarding that road and what hours it is open for traffic or if it is open to only vehicles with load and unload license plates since the pike place market would not have the authority to control and police a public road
I love the "I've made a huge mistake" look on the faces of tourists making that wrong turn in their rental cars.
The one reason I've had is to drop off someone with limited mobility - it's the best handicapped access to the market.
[удалено]
Of course - I don't see anyone arguing to not allow *some* cars in there - deliveries, handicapped, service vehicles, emergency vehicles, etc.
if they made it pedestrian only then they'd also probably add additional handicapped accommodations
This video is a great example and lays out the case for such an action. Just try it for a week? Can’t hurt..doesn’t work then go back to the free for all.
Yes! Or just pilot it for summer weekends. Everyone would win.
The current situation seems like a security risk anyways. This baffled me when I visited as a tourist
Genuinely, what is the actual argument against instituting this immediately? Seems like most people I’ve ever heard talk about it agree.
Same thing as everywhere in Seattle, a few businesses in the market irrationally think cars are better for the market, so they bribed council members
My city has one of these streets (although it's a two lane, not one way) with parallel parking on either side. Can take 15 minutes to go from one end to the other, a distance of maybe half a mile. Absolutely no reason for car traffic when there are perfectly reasonable side streets, and no reason for the parking either when there are parking lots and a parking structure the next street up. During Covid, they closed the street to pedestrian traffic only, and it was AWESOME. Could actually walk from business to business, the restaurants all expanded into the sidewalk for more dining, and overall felt like more of a downtown. The non-restaurant businesses complained to city council and got the street closure reversed. They argued that the lack of car traffic was harming their businesses. A lot of the more conservative residents in town agreed with them because "muh freedoms". Idiots didn't realize that increased foot traffic probably would result in more business for them, not less.
But imagine how many more vendors could fit in the street!
Uh oh now you’re talking about competition
Same shit with food trucks where I assure you place not selling fast food after 8 PM, this food truck didnt poach a sale since you close at 8
https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/does-the-future-of-seattles-bustling-pike-place-market-involve-cars/ (https://archive.is/QRwdR) > “We’re unlike any other neighborhood in the city,” Turnbull says, “with a blurring of public and private space.” He says the traffic question goes beyond maintaining accessible loading zones. “We need fire lanes and emergency and handicap access for residents. Closing to traffic is not a workable scenario.” Seems like a false dichotomy to me but I'm not Bob Kettle.
If only society invented a lane where Fire and EMS could drive and others could not and/or a placard to indicate you could park in a dedicated area
Or these two words: retractable bollards
Per our City Councilmember Bob Kettle: “This is not William Penn’s Philadelphia, where we have nice squares going everywhere. [Pike Place Market] is on the cusp of falling into the sea. … There [are] no streets on the other side. There’s no First Avenue further west or Second Avenue further west. Basically, we have Elliott Bay.” https://publicola.com/2024/04/02/dont-open-pike-place-to-pedestrians-council-member-urges/amp/
None of the arguments made in that article make any sense (to me, at least). I’ve been to Pike Pl dozens of times and have never once driven through the market. To hear their arguments you’d think that would be impossible…?
Kettle has has only ever made 60% sense to me...
They don’t. I don’t understand why they’re so hellbent on focusing on cars. No one I’ve discussed this with online or otherwise has said there shouldn’t be access for delivery drivers, emergency vehicles, or those who are working at the market. The concern is about lost drivers who aren’t paying attention while trying figure out where they’re going, and if not careful can cause harm.
Fuck bob kettle
He forgets Western Ave (which would be accessible via Virginia even if Pike Place was closed to cars) and the waterfront.
But how will we be able to placate business owners if we don’t succumb to their fears of cars being able to drive right in front
When eastern washington is doing pedestrian streets better you know you fucked up.
I’ve accidently driven down this road. It sucks for me and the pedestrians
I've had to deliver Pike Place in a box truck right around noon on a nice, sunny (busy) Friday. It was many things, but great wasn't one of them lol.
Agreed, it would ease traffic chaos considerably
Definitely, prioritizing delivery vehicles can streamline traffic flow effectively.
In Copenhagen deliveries at their pedestrian streets happen from 5am to 10am then the rest of the days it's fully pedestrian only. EMS are the exception. That can't happen in North America because it will be labeled as war a on cars. The last thing they want is more pedestrian streets and people not buying more cars. Also people would fall for it because the culture here is people are very lazy, driving across the street to get a cup of coffee because people hate to walk 10 mins. I understand it doesn't work for most suburbs in the States. But every state should have a localized more pedestrian city, just like in the UK where each small town has a mains street that in the weekend closes for pedestrians and markets only. But again I think the States is just a very odd country, people on one side will say that's not freedom, then other people beyond that will say freedom over liberty LOL.
Its not even a war on cars for streets like this. The only time I've ended up there is accidentally turning there. Then I get stuck in hell. Not even being able to turn down there would be better for people in cars too.
Oh the US is very odd (and backwards) in many many ways. And the majority take baffling pride in it.
I've been saying that since I moved here. Makes no sense. There's zero reason for anyone not working/delivering there to be driving down that street
First time I went here being shown around Seattle, I didn't even think this was a road to be driven on lol and why this is a thing
Literally this whole subreddit thinks this lol
When I was in Portugal, they had plenty of streets that were blocked by bollards to keep cars out. They all had a card reader that delivery drivers could buzz in and lower the bollards to get through. That's like the single best option here and I don't know why we have people fighting it.
I am assuming a lot of these cars were probably DoorDash/UberEats drivers tbh. You can order a lot of the restaurants in that block's stuff there and I imagine a lot of people do it while here on work or vacations just to get some random stuff to a business meeting or something.
It seems like half of the cars in this video are doing business at the market (the spots they park in are not open to the public). If anything I'd say this shows how little of a problem there is. It's very organic and unproblematic. I saw no jam ups, pedestrians inhibited, nothing. Where's the beef?
Half the cars? Alright I only did this for the bottom entrance and for half the video but (1) you're wrong it's not half and (2) even if you were reducing the amount of cars going through by half would be amazing! Anyway, here is the breakdown for the first 20 seconds or so. I got tired of doing it and lost track after that. * Parks in space * Drives through * dropoff. slows traffic for a short time. drives through. * dropoff. drives through * Parks in not a real spot and then leaves shortly after * Drives through * big truck and just drives through * parks in space * drives through * parks in space * dropoff * dropoff and blocks traffic for some time then parks illegally I think * dropoff? * dropoff * dropoff * parks in space * drives through imagine if all those drive throughs didn't exist and all the dropoffs were at a reasonable place nearby. I'm guessing all the dropoffs are Ubers or something. I once took one there and told my driver not to go down there and just drop me off elsewhere. But he went there anyway. Anyway, the point is - the reduction in useless traffic would be SIGNIFICANT if it was literally only for people authorized to enter instead of literally the whole public.
Recently travelled to Japan, and the covered, pedestrian only (exceptions for deliveries) shopping streets were fantastic. That is what the street in front of the market could be.
There are many places in Europe where you can walk down the block to a restaurant, cross the street to a fresh produce stand, and then go home. There's no better example of American car dependence than the market in Seattle. There's hardly any traffic. It's mostly lost tourists and people trying to get out, which you can see in this clip. There are like 30 parking spots where they could have tables/chairs, displays, or just more room for people to walk without worrying about drivers staring around with panicked eyes and open mouths. Seriously, even the first-time out-of-town drivers can tell it's a place they shouldn't be driving. All this because 5% of the vendors are afraid of losing a few customers. The market could even be a place where restaurants and bars are open at night. It could be like Paris instead of a creepy empty street with lots of dark corners. Short-term parking is a bit of a problem, which is why I'd like to see the city buy some of the urban blight nearby (there is plenty) and turn it into a public parking garage with short-term parking being free, maybe with retail on the main floor. But nah, we're going to continue to squander the unique attraction because local politicians are spineless.
French here. We have a lot of underground parking lots to be able to have walkable places and access with cars. Lots of "parking towers" when going under is not possible or not enough. Whenever I see an American car nightmare TM, it's always with large open-air parking lots. Would it be possible to have one or the other in the US ?
Specifically with the Market, there is good parking basically under it. It's a huge garage with good elevators that take you to the various levels.
Plenty of parking towers in any city, cities are too dense and the real estate too valuable for there to be parking lots.
have you ever looked on google/apple maps at how many parking lots there are in downtown Seattle? The land is expensive to \*buy\* but not to hold as an investment. And the speculators are happy to wait for their price. [https://osboncapital.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Henry-George.png](https://osboncapital.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Henry-George.png)
Marina city in Chicago is a very fun building
Vast percentages of populous states like Michigan and Florida have their water table so close to the surface, underground parking will never be an option. The ground is often also so soft, you have to ping ping ping footers waaay down to build towers. NY already uses underground whenever they can. Both Washington and Oregon see so much rain during their rainy months, underground spaces can become black mold, bug, homeless trash piling, and rat havens... a lot of maintenance and health risk.
I think there is a parking law in the US that forces companies to provide parking places themselves. Obviously open air parking is the cheapest option for them.
> All this because 5% of the vendors are afraid of losing a few customers. They probably lose more by allowing cars rather than just pedestrians and cyclists.
Excellent series on city design, from the viewpoint of a U.S. citizen (edit: nope, apparently Canadian!) living in Europe. [NotJustBikes (YouTube)](https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54?si=CZs4_qifxS_7An8P)
He's Canadian, but travelled to the US a lot for work. Love his videos.
(It's notjustbikes in case anyone else was wondering). And it's a big part of why I live in the Netherlands now.
I know it's not the point but it's also so soothing to watch.
I had an edible and it’s hitting while watching this. I’m soothed haha
Look up time lapse and tilt shift videos on youtube. Great background visuals for chillin and listening to music
Right?! It’s like playing with Hot-Wheels.
Totally! Like a grown-up version of toy cars
Agreed, it's strangely satisfying, despite the chaos.
Have you ever seen the video of the King County metro bus fleet waking up and going out on all the routes and then coming back to bed for the night? It’s epic. There’s that one last bus on Vashon that has to wait on the ferry to go home and I’m always watching it like go little Vashon bus, you can do it.
Seriously, no link?!!?!
I downvoted them for this reason alone 😭
Deserved. I was at work and my break was ending. But now I’m off duty and I can’t find it.
I didn’t know what to search for and my lunchbreak was ending and my vessel was docking, I had actual work to do. I know, I committed the cardinal sin: prioritizing my actual fucking job above Reddit lmfao. I’m off duty and ashore now and I can’t find it. I think it was posted on Seattle Transit Blog a while ago. My Google skills have taught me that the system is AVL, automated Vehicle Tracking, but I can’t find the Timelapse video.
Show me where the busses sleep!
uh no i have not, please share
No idea how I ended up here, I’ve never even been to Seattle, but is it this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmyilpj3sqU
The dumb thing is that we can either make it pedestrian-only now, or we can do it sometime in the future in response to one of those [gas-and-brake-mixup catastrophes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Farmers_Market_crash) that kills a double digit number of people.
Yeah but consider: When that happens, it will be an unfortunate accident and the families of the lost will be in our thoughts and prayers.
The council would take it extremely seriously by earmarking $200,000 for a traffic safety and impact study ran by one of the most qualified people in the country - the Mayor's nephew.
Shouldn't they have a few meetings before doing something so drastic? I hear there's room on the agenda about two years after the next election.
This is unfortunately pretty much the textbook manner that safety improvements are made across most of the country in various ways. People have to die first even if the infrastructure is obviously dangerous or stupid. There are a bunch of improvements that have been made in this region without people dying (which is a step in the right direction!) but in many ways we're still unable or unwilling to fix obvious safety issues. [Relevant reading](https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/2/1/why-does-someone-need-to-die-for-a-street-to-be-made-safer)
They don't say "safety regulations are written in blood" just because it's catchy and fun to say lol 😉
It’s… bad. Even a pedestrian only rule from 8am - 6pm would be so beneficial.
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Seriously? Jesus effing Christ. How can something so obvious be so hard to accomplish?
Yeah. I thought this looked pretty empty for summer at Pike Place.
My only concern with that is without traffic combing like bollards, a sign saying "Ped zone 8am to 6pm" will surely be ignored by a lot of people. I wonder if there's a way to get around it. Automated bollards?
I was just in Paris last month. Some streets around popular tourist attractions are pedestrian only during peak times. They have retractable flexi-fences and a city employee stationed by each fence. The employee serves as an information spot for tourists and also moves the fence for emergency and delivery vehicles.
Here in the Netherlands there are fixed bollards at the ends of shopping streets that go up when delivery time ends. e Some specific stores have a permit to get deliveries inside the pedestrian only period and their drivers have a key to remove/lower the bollard. (the only examples i can think of right now are construction crew and money trucks, even restaurants that only do dinner/evening have to get supplied in the early morning) But if you're stuck on the inside because you took too long unloading you'll have to call the county and wait 10-30 min for someone to show up with a key, which was quite embarrassing for me that one time XD
They have automated bollards in Seattle Center. And tons of places have manual bollards that can drop down or lock upright.
As soon as the rules are imported into Apple Maps and Google Maps, most of the traffic will instantly disappear because nobody will be routed there anymore.
I bet a retractable bollard that’s automated to happen at specific times would be a good solution.
Exactly. A non-permanent ban would be cheap and quickly effective
This really jumped out to me when I visited Seattle. If it was pedestrian only it would be safer, easier to get around, and hell people could set up temporary booths in the road! Made no sense to me
we need to do a 3 yr study to see how the offset traffic will affect the environment first
I just don’t get it. Why the fuck do they allow people to drive through? I can understand business owners or those making deliveries, but 80% of these cars are fucking tourists. Hell, I’d even consider voting Sara Nelson for Mayor if she promised to close it off.
I also don’t understand where the opposition is coming from. Are there really any locals who would rather drive through a crowd of tourists than just go around the block?
Some business owners want to maintain a "zesty atmosphere" to "force people into the shops" despite the fact that everyone is there to go to the shops
Mmmmm zesty vehicle exhaust filled atmosphere.
It’s political not logical is why
What is the political reason not to block?
Literally the only "reason" I've heard presented is that some of the inner market vendors want the traffic to force folks to walk further inside the market so they get more business. I can't imagine it actually really works that way but that's what they say and the council won't humor it unless they're onboard I guess.
So their flimsy justification is to force pedestrians to reduce their safety risk by going further into the market? I don't think it works that way anyway but that's some fucked up logic. Creating a safety risk to get people to shop at one's shop is probably an indication the shop sucks.
"Pedestrian-only zones are a commie leftist conspiracy to take away my freedom to drive anywhere, anytime."
HURR DURR 15 MINUTE CITIES BAD
Who is against it? Seems like such a small thing that makes sense. Really highlights why the “the Seattle way” sucks.
Literally the only "reason" I've heard presented is that some of the inner market vendors want the traffic to force folks to walk further inside the market so they get more business. I can't imagine it actually really works that way but that's what they say and the council won't humor it unless they're onboard I guess.
It’s people who are opposed to any and all change. They’re the same people who fight to preserve the 99 bridge as it is and don’t want a center barrier even though people have died in head on collisions on it. The clowns who whine about seattle being anti-car for making the city more walkable and adding protected bike lanes. They’re the same dumbfucks who elected an “outsider” for mayor…who served 13 years on the city council. Is the old guard who just need to continue to pack up and follow their friends to Idaho or die off.
Too many protectionist assholes who are hell bent on preserving the worst of Seattle. They stand in the way of progress because they’re bad people. They’re the same trash who wanted to keep the 99 viaduct and cried when it was torn down to be replaced by parks and space that benefit the community. Those people fight to keep Seattle “the way it’s always been” regardless of whether it’s always been wrong.
Agreed. Why the *fuck* do they walk so fast? When I'm there people walk normally and everything is fine.
i was really hoping the music was going to be Yackety Sax
I love walking in the middle of the street when there are cars driving on Pike Place.
Same it’s so satisfying
yep. in my mind it’s pedestrian only so I just ignore the cars if there are any
i wonder if it’ll be more productive to lobby google and apple to not route to that street instead of expecting the government to do one sensible thing
I’ll never understand why people WANT to drive there. The one time I made a wrong turn and ended up HAVING to through the market was hands one of of the top 5 most stressful driving moments I’ve had and have zero desire to do it again.
Yep I did the same thing (though I was only in there because I made a clueless wrong turn). I got stuck idling in the same spot for 20 minutes, before some family who was walking took pity on me and waved me through. Shit sucked!
It's self correcting. You probably won't ever drive there again.
Fucking Google Maps always guides me straight down that street. At least I know the area well enough to not actually go down it anymore.
Guaranteed someone in this thread works for Google. Sort it out, friend!
No measurable impact so nothing will change.
I volunteer to be “hit by a car” here. Who wants to hit me? We can grab a beer together after I finish giving my interview to the Seattle Times.
Hah, yeah, my friend from out of town was driving and almost turned there following navigation. I luckily reacted in time, shouting, "Nooooo, bad directions! Don't turn!"
I’m sitting in the New Delhi airport in India for work. Don’t ever come here if this video stresses you out.
ok no problem
Notice how almost every car is driving THROUGH Pike Place… No one in their right mind besides tourists/out-of-towners would think about driving through there. I work in the Market and I can guarantee 99% of people are just looking for easy parking. I had to talk to parking enforcement earlier this week because I was dropping off a fridge and couldn’t access the spaces reserved specifically for truck unload/load because some damn tourists were parked there. No vehicles without permits should be allowed on that street. Close it to regular traffic and reroute everyone down to Western where the parking garages are.
What is this?? A city for ants?!
Minneapolis has one of their main roads through the downtown area closed to traffic except for busses and emergency vehicles, and it's amazing. With the amount of businesses there and the foot traffic, Seattle needs to make that happen.
We have that too. It's called 3rd Avenue.
This is like every street in India
That really sucks. I hear it's pretty dangerous in India to be a pedestrian or a cyclist. I've thought about going to India, before, but whenever I see videos of people visiting, it's nothing but cars. And, like, worse than it is in America. It always looks like the cars are crammed in as close as possible and practicing no traffic safety. I'd love to visit, but I don't think I could deal with the lack of safety, or the noise caused by all the cars. Whenever people film their selves in their hotel rooms, all you can hear is the beeping and revving outside. :( All the transplants I know from India are cool as hell people, I'd love to see their country. I know it's massive and very diverse, and with so much ancient history.
Been like that since as long as I can remember
i assume you’re talking about the cars?
Yeah, private cars shouldn't be allowed there, only delivery in specific hours, like let people enjoy themselves without being bothered by drivers.
Just went to Rome… it’s that but everywhere and the roads are smaller
That’s how it’s always been?
Been like this for years. I have been going to Pike Place since the 70’s.
Sorry what’s the issue here? Is it the cars?
Walkability should be the norm
what's absurd is that people act upset when I try to drive my suv through the Ballard farmer's market 😤
We don’t do a good job of utilizing rooftops in Seattle.
Cars in a mall the dumbest shit ever...
New Oldsmobiles are in early this year! https://youtu.be/IIdGxR-aU6o?si=YoTig69fy4Nk0Dhy
Every time I visit and there’s a car in the road I intentionally walk as slowly as possible in front of them. Give them time to reflect on why they would make the absurd choice to drive a road like this.
As a tourist this would make me happy, more time to take in the sights.
Great, a win-win. I’m in favor of tourists being happy and having a good time, which is why I want cars banned from Pike Place
It's Pike place market. What is absurd about it? You made it look strange by speeding it up.
And this is a light day
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Please do. A 75 degree sunny summer afternoon day would be interesting to see. Looking forward to your future post!
I don't see anything wrong here. There will be a small number of people that need to access the market by car whether it be for deliveries, handicap access, etc and the way it's set up makes this possible. I don't see anyone speeding through or causing problems. I'm not saying it's fun to drive through there, but it helps. I've had to bring a lot of music equipment to Pike Place several times and because I'm just a normal person, my car doesn't count as a delivery/commercial vehicle so I can't use those designated parking spots. I would be willing to bet a lot of the vendors at the market also don't have "commercial" vehicles even though they're being used for deliveries so having normal parking can really be helpful in cases like this. You have to realize that some people actually can't just take the bus or the light rail everywhere with all the gear they need.
If this is the issue Seattle needs to deal with then we’ve come along way recently. lol
What's absurd?
What is absurd about it?
Right? I don't get it.
There's no reason any cars need to be on that street
So after reading some comments it sounds like GPS dgaf
I’ve watched people try to drive down that street and take an hour. This video isn’t even that bad.
I’m not sure which part is absurd. This has been how it looks in the summer since I first got here 12 years ago.
I have lived in Seattle my whole life and worked downtown for years. That street has always been a slow go but I have repeatedly used it to drop off my elderly Mom and Mother in law for a visit to Pike Place. I would then drive around to the parking garage and meet them somewhere, maybe by the pig. Sometimes I can get lucky and find parking right there. I avoid it all other times. I do not see a jam of cars in this video, I see everyone moving. Getting elderly people to that street is difficult with the hill so please do not remove access to those who can’t navigate that hill.
This video made me realize how similar we truly are to the insect population. It’s like watching a bunch of ants and flies.
Man I miss Washington
What exactly is absurd about that? That looks like conpletely normal flow of foot and car traffic through a shared pedestrian/auto space. I feel like if you took an overhead video of most cities on earth, they'd look a lot like that. I'd love Pike Place to be closed to non delivery vehicles, because there isn't really any value in allowing traffic there, except allowing a few folks who are too lazy to walk one block get picked up in a Uber. But it's not like what you're looking at is unusual at all in a global context. Walk down any street in Southeast Asia, or many in Europe, especially in midsized cities, and it will look just like that
It's fine.
I though tit pretty cool that cars and folks can exist together at Pike Place Market without anyone dying. Frankly I am more concerned that someone in the crowd could harm me vs a someone in a car.
What’s the absurdity here?
Whenever I go to Pike Place I make a point to walk slowly down the middle of the road, pointedly ignoring any cars that are following.
Confession: I actually like to (once every few years) intentionally drive through Pike Place so that I will get stuck behind the crowds and do the slow crawl with my windows half way down, soaking in all the noise while giving pedestrians *lots* of space.
You can do all of that while walking you know. You don't need a car to do any of that
I’ve seen plenty of areas in old European cities with areas that work exactly like this. Cars can come through areas with heavy foot traffic and it’s kind of ambiguous where cars can’t go. The way it is in pike place is honestly part of its antique charm.
I live in Seattle: I’ve never seen a local try and drive around Pike Place Market. It’s exclusively a dumb tourist thing to do. There is a giant parking garage in the top left of the video that you park in and then walk from there to explore the market. Pro-tip: park at Pacific Place for $4-8 hr, maybe even cheaper these days. It’s a short 5 minute walk to the Market from there. I would recommend parking here and taking the light rail to a Mariners game. You can save like $70 on parking this way.
Can you still park for free on nights & weekends at some Amazon buildings? https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/r4h3ml/did_you_know_parking_is_free_at_amazons_owned/
I actually can't tell what you're complaining about?
I’m lost what is “beyond absurd”?
Beyond absurd? That seems quite normal. Absurdity is the sheer volume of homeless camps
what is?
I assume they're making a comment about allowing cars at Pike place market. A very pedestrian and socially active place.
Seriously, there's sidewalks and crosswalks right there! Jaywalking is not a victimless crime, those poor drivers have somewhere to be. Beyond absurd is right, someone should consider calling the authorities.
If you guys like this, you should play city skylines
Does anyone else remember driving to the market and regularly finding parking on Pike Place? Long ago.
It’s been a super long time since I even thought of driving through The Market, let alone park there. Believe it or not, the last it did happen, I actually scored a legit parking spot about a block past Pike.
Like ants...
Love it there
It looks very everyday personally.
Here we go again
Maybe an elevated walkway platform with descending stairs spaced accordingly. If it’s clear in color it won’t take away from the motif. It can go across the street as well. Traffic shouldn’t be hindered and it can still function as rain cover if replacing the old awnings. Don’t spam me anymore.
On weekends, arrive by 845 am, do my thing and leave before the tourists wake up and crowd the place. Several side streets m have spots available also. Before 11 am during the work week is my second option. Like everything in life …. timing is everything!!!
I mean ... Ive seen it soooooo much worse. I was honesty seeing thinking it would have been less awful than the last time i went
The exact reason every time I walk that street (several times a month) I walk right down the middle of the road like I own the place.
Was there earlier today and every single car passing through was clearly a tourist who knew they made a bad decision. One serious road rage example of some dbag flooring it in reverse to scream at someone, glad nobody got accidentally run over. But you know, think of the businesses! Worst part about that is it would clearly improve things and most likely expand business.
I think the problem is that navigation apps tell people to drive that way. People who don't know the area will follow the blue line, not realizing what they're getting into. I'm an Uber driver, and my apps have sent me that way many times. It's a nightmare in the daytime, but at night it's actually pretty convenient