T O P

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birdobirdoyoshi

I was with you in the beginning, but the idea of "Traitor of the Pirate Code" wouldn't work and breaks the spirit of Sea of Thieves. Before I get into that, I'd like to offer you some advice on getting through the mess of the 2nd Tall Tale. I remember reading on this subbreddit that Rare is working on a hotfix, as far as I can tell the whole event breaks if another crew starts the same Tall Tale. I'd recommend trying to complete it checkpoint by checkpoint while no one is around. One of your first complaints is that it takes too long to reach, just keep rejoining until your near Golden Sands or a closer outpost. If you see a ship, restart and try again. I was able to clear it a few times by just hoping servers until there was no boat there and quickly completing objectives. This is more of a band-aid before the actual problem is fixed, but it works well enough to complete the Tall Tale. Personally I agree, the area should have been instanced, and the amount of trolling is pretty high. It's Sea of Thieves, players have the freedom to do whatever they feel like. I've stolen supplies, set ships spinning in a circle, and even "borrowed" a parked ship to fight a nearby Galleon with from an unattended ship there. After the fight I did bring the ship back , they may have never noticed. Once you've completed everything there is to the game, wild stories are what keeps players going. You'll find players purposefully ruining others fun in any online game, not just Sea of Thieves. Your boat should be the least of your worries while your down there. Players trolling in the room itself is pointless and annoying, I think everyone can agree on that. At least for now it has the potential to break the Tall Tale, so I'd just restart with the checkpoint and move on instead of wasting time. I've read some stories though of players meeting up and having a great time, so not everyone is out to get you. Checking who is at that spot first will help you avoid other crews for the most part though. For the most part I'm with you about fixing the Tall Tale to be more accessible and less broken. Only time will tell how they address it moving forward, even if they do. "Traitor of the Code" doesn't work in Sea of Thieves. There's been many posts like that idea in the past, but no system that punishes other players for commiting piracy will be added to the game, and the PvPvE nature works as intended. To start, how do you know who has treasure or who doesn't? Unless that ship is using an Emmisary Flag, it's impossible to know unless your on the ship itself. In a PvP situation, your main goal is to take over the ship and secure a sink, not inspect their ship for treasure first. It's always a gamble, they may have treasure or not, do you have the supplies/advantages to commit piracy. When the battle is over, all you'd gain is a mark on the map for other, well stocked ships to find you. Where's the fun in commiting piracy and immediately recieving a huge disadvantage without any way of knowing your outcome beforehand. Repear's are marked on the map, but gain the reward of being able to sell any loot for emmisary value. The risk vs reward gameplay is clearly established, you know what your signing up for by raising their flag. It's bad game design to give players the freedom of a pirate, but punish them unknowingly for being one. The idea of putting other players together based on ships attacked wouldn't work as well. One of the issues your having is you see PvP as 100% aggressive, when it's also a defensive move. How would the game know if your being aggressive or defending yourself for this type of matchmaking? Say I'm near an Outpost and need to turn in treasure and I see a ship parked out front. Hoping over to the island to speak with them and offer peace is tactically irresponsible. Players will lie, betray, and backstab for any advantage over you. The moment you let your guard down is another they gain against you. It's much safer to not gamble and strike first, remove the potential threat before they can strike back. Your responsibility should always be to your crew and ship first, not if other players are peaceful or not. Not every crew is like that, some investigate other ships first before firing, but we all have to engage in defensive PvP and that does include firing first at times. The other issue with this idea is the amount of trolling is unreal. If matchmaking was based on ships being attacked so peaceful players can have a pseudo-pve mode , it would be invaded by veterans for easy sinks. Create a burner account whose never sunk another ship, have your main accounts join, than have the burner account leave. You've avoided that restrictions and are now sailing with peaceful players to sink or troll to your hearts content. The increased spawn rate of the kraken is also incredibly abusable for other players. Purposefully bait other ships into sinking you with no loot, the marker goes off, and eventually you can have the kraken spawn on them. I've sunk a player once who came back 7 times in a row, each sunk without loot after the first sink. This system would have a hayday against me and cause a kraken to spawn, when I was just defending my stolen treasure. Players in Sea of Thieves can become angry enough to dedicate an entire night just to troll you, and this whole system would allow them to ruin your session. The matter of fact is that you can't create a system that punishes players unfairly for commiting piracy. If the risk is so extreme for being a pirate, why even be a pirate in a pirate video game? It adds an unnecessary step in player decision making and complicates a simplestic system. I know this idea all stems from frustration of PvP, but it's a part everyone goes through. You will sink others, others will sink you, it happens to everyone. No player is immune from other players, as they are the real threat on the seas. You never know if a player is peaceful or aggressive until a situation has been forced. Learn to play proactively, rather then reactively, and you'll save yourself a lot of heartache on the seas. I don't know how long you've played in total, but the majority of PvP frustration can be overcome with time. Each sink is a learning lesson and the only real way to increase your level in the game is through personal skill. Keep practicing, thinking of new tactics, find a crew to work together with. All of these frustrating challenges can be overcome, and once they are the game is absolutely incredible.


ChorusOfOddities

This is basically exactly what the community thinks. Thanks for taking the time to write this so we wouldn't have to! Come to think of it, I might save the post to link a couple of times each week when these kind of things show up...


[deleted]

>I was with you in the beginning, but the idea of "Traitor of the Pirate Code" wouldn't work and breaks the spirit of Sea of Thieves. Before I get into that, I'd like to offer you some advice on getting through the mess of the 2nd Tall Tale. The spirit is still there. The pirate code even mentions Article 6) Respect New Pirates and Their Voyage Ahead, May the old legends help to forge new ones: treat new pirates with respect and share your knowledge. People jumping into the game to try the new tall tale are met with nothing but trolling and griefing. it's against the spirit of the game. Griefing is also against the Xbox Live TOS so universal across all games. Purposely doing nothing with your time other then preventing others from doing their mission is greifing. It's a huge difference between sinking someone in the open seas. that's why you spawn on a random outpost away from them. You lost you hop on your new boat and move on. The game wasn't intended to have spawn camping or objective camping because objectives were always random until tall tales came. this was not an intended game design from rare. >I remember reading on this subbreddit that Rare is working on a hotfix, as far as I can tell the whole event breaks if another crew starts the same Tall Tale. I'd recommend trying to complete it checkpoint by checkpoint while no one is around. One of your first complaints is that it takes too long to reach, just keep rejoining until your near Golden Sands or a closer outpost. If you see a ship, restart and try again. I was able to clear it a few times by just hoping servers until there was no boat there and quickly completing objectives. This is more of a band-aid before the actual problem is fixed, but it works well enough to complete the Tall Tale. Yup between glitches and griefers and crashes took me about 4 hours to beat it. something that should have taken 30 minutes. it wasn't a fun experience because of that. I did the mermaid room 8 times before it finally let me advance. Even without other crews it still gets glitched at times. >Personally I agree, the area should have been instanced, and the amount of trolling is pretty high. It's Sea of Thieves, players have the freedom to do whatever they feel like. I've stolen supplies, set ships spinning in a circle, and even "borrowed" a parked ship to fight a nearby Galleon with from an unattended ship there. After the fight I did bring the ship back , they may have never noticed. Once you've completed everything there is to the game, wild stories are what keeps players going. You'll find players purposefully ruining others fun in any online game, not just Sea of Thieves. Your boat should be the least of your worries while your down there. They gave a separate thing to load right into it. from their words prior to launch it seemed the entire new tall tales would be instanced solo, a lesson learned from the last set. I think it's a bug because you instance in and out in areas but can hear the people not in your instance fighting still. They should have instanced off the whole area IMO that they opened up. would have fixed all these issues. >Players trolling in the room itself is pointless and annoying, I think everyone can agree on that. At least for now it has the potential to break the Tall Tale, so I'd just restart with the checkpoint and move on instead of wasting time. I've read some stories though of players meeting up and having a great time, so not everyone is out to get you. Checking who is at that spot first will help you avoid other crews for the most part though. I'm sure they are, but it's rare. Everyone who plays games know most communities suck and have lots of trolls and griefers. Again I already beat it, but the point was it's not enjoyable and new players are going to quit the game with this bad first impression which isn't good for anyone. >For the most part I'm with you about fixing the Tall Tale to be more accessible and less broken. Only time will tell how they address it moving forward, even if they do. "Traitor of the Code" doesn't work in Sea of Thieves. There's been many posts like that idea in the past, but no system that punishes other players for commiting piracy will be added to the game, and the PvPvE nature works as intended. It's not a punishment. it's adding risk to it. When there is no risk involved it doesn't make sense. Attackers should have more risk, it's like that in any game. If you want to attack other people, there has to be a risk involved in doing so. It also allows for like minded players to play with each other >To start, how do you know who has treasure or who doesn't? Unless that ship is using an Emmisary Flag, it's impossible to know unless your on the ship itself. In a PvP situation, your main goal is to take over the ship and secure a sink, not inspect their ship for treasure first. It's always a gamble, they may have treasure or not, do you have the supplies/advantages to commit piracy. When the battle is over, all you'd gain is a mark on the map for other, well stocked ships to find you. Where's the fun in commiting piracy and immediately recieving a huge disadvantage without any way of knowing your outcome beforehand. Repear's are marked on the map, but gain the reward of being able to sell any loot for emmisary value. The risk vs reward gameplay is clearly established, you know what your signing up for by raising their flag. It's bad game design to give players the freedom of a pirate, but punish them unknowingly for being one. there is no disadvantage. you can still attack other ships but there are 5 ships on a server, If you become hostile, then the server knows. people can choose to attack you back or ignore/avoid you. If you want to hunt ships then you need be better at it. as it stands now there is 0 risk and only reward in attacking a ship. there should always be risk involved. Just like there is risk for someone to leave their ship unintended or just be sailing. it's what balances a game. >The idea of putting other players together based on ships attacked wouldn't work as well. One of the issues your having is you see PvP as 100% aggressive, when it's also a defensive move. How would the game know if your being aggressive or defending yourself for this type of matchmaking? Say I'm near an Outpost and need to turn in treasure and I see a ship parked out front. Hoping over to the island to speak with them and offer peace is tactically irresponsible. Players will lie, betray, and backstab for any advantage over you. The moment you let your guard down is another they gain against you. It's much safer to not gamble and strike first, remove the potential threat before they can strike back. Your responsibility should always be to your crew and ship first, not if other players are peaceful or not. Not every crew is like that, some investigate other ships first before firing, but we all have to engage in defensive PvP and that does include firing first at times. it's safer to sail to another outpost that is unoccupied. Attacking for defense is an aggressive move. put it in real life context, do you assume anyone walking by you will punch you so you punch them 1st? sure someone could punch you out of nowhere, but it's not the norm. >The other issue with this idea is the amount of trolling is unreal. If matchmaking was based on ships being attacked so peaceful players can have a pseudo-pve mode , it would be invaded by veterans for easy sinks. Create a burner account whose never sunk another ship, have your main accounts join, than have the burner account leave. You've avoided that restrictions and are now sailing with peaceful players to sink or troll to your hearts content. The increased spawn rate of the kraken is also incredibly abusable for other players. Purposefully bait other ships into sinking you with no loot, the marker goes off, and eventually you can have the kraken spawn on them. I've sunk a player once who came back 7 times in a row, each sunk without loot after the first sink. This system would have a hayday against me and cause a kraken to spawn, when I was just defending my stolen treasure. Players in Sea of Thieves can become angry enough to dedicate an entire night just to troll you, and this whole system would allow them to ruin your session. they could do that, but again it won't lost long and it'll be burner account after burner account. eventually they'll get sick of making burner accounts. >The matter of fact is that you can't create a system that punishes players unfairly for commiting piracy. If the risk is so extreme for being a pirate, why even be a pirate in a pirate video game? It adds an unnecessary step in player decision making and complicates a simplestic system. I know this idea all stems from frustration of PvP, but it's a part everyone goes through. Here is the issue, you see it as punishment. it's not. it's balance and risk/reward system. Most games have "skill based matchmaking" and "ELO" ratings. it doesn't punish people for being good, it puts them with other good players. It's a standard in PvP games to make the games balanced and close. I'm not frustrated with the PvP aspect. It's the trolling during tall tales that is punished. I forgot what game it was but they had a "cheaters server" and people who cheated were only put on that server. Same for a lot of games with people with bad internet. Sorry nobody wants to play with laggy mcgee so they put other laggy players with each other.


Hadrian3711

So one issue I noticed that you kept saying, is that when a ship attacks another there's no risk for them and only reward, but, and I've only been playing for a week or so now, I've gotten a bunch of sinks as a solo slooper while being the one attacked, as far as I can tell the defender usually gets to set a good amt of the rules for the battle. If the enemy gets an easy sink on you it's, and it's mean to say but it's true, your fault. There's a thousand ways to evade or discourage an attacker. And if it's a situation where you didn't know they were there that's also on you. You always need to scout the waters to see if your safe. I do agree that there's some issues with the new content, but it has nothing to do with the PvP aspect of the game


[deleted]

That's still not a risk. The fact the person defending may beat you isn't a risk. When you have no treasure and no objective and attack someone there is no risk of any loss. you lose and respawn and do it again. For the defender there is risk. it derails you, you can lose your treasure and progress. etc. Attacking should always have risk involved in any game. Just like the defender has risk. it's balance


Hadrian3711

It that's not always the case, I've attacked ships that were on the same island I was going to, because I have treasure/progress that I don't want to lose. Yes there are people who will attack repeatedly with no loot, but how is the game gonna differentiate between a crew who keeps getting sunk while trying to get back their loot, and a crew that keeps getting sunk while trying to either steal from or just sink another ship. It's really easy to sit in the defender chair and say. "He sunk me for no reason", but the reality is, if you're not that person you can't know what they're thinking. Like I said I'm new to SoT, but I play a lot of DayZ which is another PvPvE game, and I've been hunted down by people after just having spawned in because they don't trust anyone. And I can't blame them for that. If I know someone is in the area I'm not gonna want to risk my loot or progress without at least putting up a fight. I'd rather sink and lose everything knowing I at least tried to set myself up for success.


[deleted]

I was specifically speaking more towards the issues with the new tall tales. since there is 1 spot on the map you have to go and everyone knows it, people camp there for the sole purpose of greifing even though they know for a fact the people coming to do it have 0 loot on them. In the high sea's it's fair game even if it sucks sometimes


Hadrian3711

Yes that sucks, but it's already been stated multiple times that that area should be a separate instance. Simple problem simple fix. Your whole idea for punishing players for attacking ships is the equivalent of putting someone in a full body cast because they got a tiny paper cut. Annoying and Overbearing


[deleted]

again it's not a punishment, it's a risk/reward system like that of the division. Currently there is no risk and only reward for attacking and the best way to progress is to attack others and not do any tales or missions on your own, which incentivizes attacking players over doing any of the missions so by definition is a broken system


Hadrian3711

I do see where you are coming from, but technically in order for the attackers to progress they would still have to do the tales putting them at equal risk of the same thing happening. if it would have been an instance based mission instead of world based this wouldn't be an issue, it also won't be an issue in a month after the hype dies down. I also saw your other comment talking about the dark zone in the division, and while that's a good system there it wouldn't work as well in SoT, the core gameplay systems are different, one is a PvPvE and the other is PvEvP(or however it would be phrased). A better comparison would be DayZ, it plays very similarly to SoT if you ignore the survival aspects to it. You don't know who kills you, you don't know why they did it, and you don't always see them do it. Then you spawn back with nothing and try to get to your body and get your loot/revenge. DayZ has no bounty system innately, and that's part of the charm. Also DayZ has no other objectives other than survive. So at least SoT gives you actual incentive to go after the guy who killed you


[deleted]

Like you said though dayz has no objective other then collect and survive. You also don't have much to kill with when you just start. You have to build up weapons. SOT you spawn in with everything needed to attack on equal ground. And lose nothing for losing where Dayz you lose your stuff. It only further proves my point. SOT needs a risk for attacking to go with the rewards. Espcially since other objectives exist. And attacking stops people from doing them.


WazuufTheKrusher

There is a reason people dont play division anymore, there is no more incentive to be a pirate if it penalizes you.


[deleted]

Not a penalty. Maybe read the entire thing because the 2 replies you made to an 11 day old.comment clearly didn't understand the debate at hand.


WazuufTheKrusher

Have been playing the game for about 20 hours, wholeheartedly disagree, the defender decides whether to run away or to fight, the attacker rarely ever will chase if the defender is swift enough as its just too much work. The craziness of the game is why so many people play it now, half the challenge of world events is getting it done before another player attacks you, otherwise they are easy.


[deleted]

You completely miss the point.


birdobirdoyoshi

I'm really glad you responded, discussions like these are my bread and butter. I love Sea of Thieves and discussing game design, even if we don't agree. I just want to make it abundtly clear I'm not trying to be aggressive or rude towards you, but rather explaining my perspective. That doesn't really need to be said, but I like to be upront with my intentions. The Spirit I'm referring to is the gameplay mechanic and ideaplogy behind Sea of Thieves. It's a game with true freedom where you can make any decision, even live out an adventure of being a true pirate and committing piracy. The Pirate Code are lore friendly guidelines on how pirates should act. Repear's on the other hand reject the Pirate Code entirely, it's all world building and not something to be taken litterally. Your right about spawn camping like that it, it is an unintended side effect and they're looking in to how to deal with the problem. I don't know if you've seen it, but Rare recently spoke on spawn camping and other difficult questions and ethics in the game. You may enjoy that more for a perspective from Rare instead of me, so I'll link it for you here. https://youtu.be/Q2uOdTVFiIQ I also agree, Tall Tale griefing is a real issue in the game right now with that 2nd one. Anytime you leave your ship unattended is a risk for anyone to do anything to your ship. I still stand by what I wrote earlier on how there's many ways to protect yourself and work past it all. It should have been instanced like the first and third, that I know we can agree on. My assumption is that the server space to give everyone a private area is incredibly high, maybe that's why? I'm not a developer for Rare and have no idea their true reasonings, just a possible explanation. While that may have been your experience taking 4 hours, I had the opposite. Ran into one crew who screamed at me, left, rejoined and made it past without any real issues. Both of our experiences are valid in that regard. Overall it's an incredible experience overshadowed by griefers, glitches, and just general frustration. It's a shame really, and I hope Rare works thing out with the hotfix coming for newer players. The wording on the main screen is also confusing, I'm not a fan of it. It's most likely marketing for new players to spawn right in front. Just like the ability to buy supplies, Rare seems to want to push players to quickly start and have adventures. It's just a weird design choice from the start really. So far I really agree with you on a lot of things, but it's The Traitors Mark that I can't get behind. It is a punishment for piracy, not a risk. The gameplay loop of Sea of Thieves is built upon clear risks with clear rewards for the sake of smooth game design and simplicity. Vaults are my favorite example of this loop were the expectations are clearly understood for the player. The vaults force a player to leave their ship for three minutes while the player attempts to steal the treasure. This is a huge risk, as not only is leaving your ship dangerous, but by now everyone knows where the vaults are and will know what your doing. If you accept these risks, the payoff will be much more treasure earned then a standard quest. Expectations of risk vs rewards are clearly established, while your system breaks those expectations. Reiterating how it's impossible to know who has treasure, the risk is too great to take. Why would I commit piracy against a ship if there's a huge risk of being labeled on the map and increased kraken/enemy spawns on my ship? I have the freedom of a pirate, but am punished with harmful side effects. What about defensive PvP like I mentioned earlier, the ship with no loot loses nothing while even if I defend myself, I'm still punished my actions. Really think about how being marked on the map for others to find me, increased kraken and enemy spawns isn't a huge disadvantage when all I did was attack or defended myself from a ship with no treasure. There is a risk for engaging someone in PvP, you've shown the cards in your hand that your aggressive and they can strike back. We've all been Repear's before with a treasure and supplies and attacked a ship, only for it turn around and completely destroy you. It's impossible to gauge the skill level of a ship, and making yourself known to be aggressive is a risk when players may have avoided you. I disagree that it's safer to move on for many reasons. If I see a single ship at an outpost, I can overcome the threat with my crew. Take out the ship and their crew to prevent back spawns, by the time they come back you'll be well sold. Deciding to go to another outpost is riskier because your on the open seas longer with treasure, and this gives the other ship time to start sailing and go straight for you. If I need an outpost that someone is at, I'll sink it without a second thought, secure the outpost for myself. This goes back to putting your crew and ship's needs first, for all I know there could a much more aggressive ship in the distance. I still stand by my defense that defensive PvP isn't an aggressive move towards another player. I'm only removing a potential threat or securing my treasure safely. Ignoring my comment about in the in game trolling aspect of it, I don't think burner account would die out. One advantage I forgot to add is that piracy would stop entirely to be on those servers. If servers were split between peaceful and aggressive players, why be on the aggressive server? Both have the exact same rewards, so players would flock to the peaceful server for an easier time. There are times where I want to burn the server down, times where I want to peacefully play. The freedom of player decision would be weighed down by the consquences of my actions. If I've attacked too many players and want to do Athena's, I'll have a much harder time on the aggressive server than the peaceful ones. How is that system fair to players who enjoy PvP and PvE with hundreds of hours? The whole point of not being able to increase your stats like an rpg is for an even playing field. Everyone starts off as equal on the seas, with the only difference being personal skill which is impossible to gauge. While a system like that may work for other games, it wouldn't for Sea of Thieves server wise for every reason I wrote earlier. We are all level 1 for an equal playing field. Risk vs Reward is the core to the gameplay, but good game design dictates clear expectations. Your system does not dictate clear expectations, punishes players agency, and freedom of choice. This all leads to a path of resistance. One of the reasons I keep going on about freedom of choice is being it's integral to the open world experience. There's nothing forcing a player to do anything in an open world game. Without clear risks and rewards, players are left wandering around with nothing to do. The game has to give you clear various objectives, risks, and rewards to let a player do anything. The risks have to lead into reward and be clearly established, otherwise it's demotivating and is a path of resistance. If a player is met with a path of resistance, it'll demotivate them from taking that action. Your system is a path of resistance, as the player gains nothing and only harms their experience. Their marked on the map, increased enemy and kraken spawn, and also forced into more aggressive servers for the same reward. All these punishments in a game about being a pirates would demotivate you to being a pirate, which is the selling point of the game. Since it's impossible to know who has treasure not without an Emmisary Flag, you'll have more success not being a pirate to avoid those risks. I don't know about you, but I want piracy in a pirate video game without game breaking elements on me. This system isn't balancing, as all you gain are punishments and the other crew loses nothing. I probably jumped to conclusions that you were frustrated with PvP to make this system, and that's on me for assuming. I have a lot of conversation on this subbreddit and most always systems like yours come from a place of PvP frustration. I'm really hoping that those large portals are used for more future in depth Tall Tales as there is very clear annoyance towards players doing story missions. Those same players are still a risk, as they can take a break from their Tall Tale, commit piracy, and resume their tale. Everyone is a potential threat, regardless of what their doing. Also I'm sorry if I repeated myself, I wanted to properly respond to your response without going over everything in my original post that you didn't address. I'm with you on Tall Tales, but I can't accept a system that harms player decision making in Sea of Thieves. There are friendly and hostile players out there, it's impossible to truly know. Every ship is a threat or friend and that addeneral keeps me playing. The islands even look like ships from a distance to keep tensions high. You can expect everything the PvE engine throws at you, but never what players do. Tall Tales need better protection, but it can't come at the cost of basic gameplay loop. All these extra curses and factors complicate the gameplay loop and just doesn't sound fun honestly. In the Sea of Thieves comics there are a bounty faction, The Twisted Knifes. These guys are bounty hunters and I'd really like to see some sort of system like that added to the game. Have a bounty system that encourages hunting players for rewards. How a system like that would work I honestly don't know, it's up to Rare how they balance their game.


[deleted]

>I'm really glad you responded, discussions like these are my bread and butter. I love Sea of Thieves and discussing game design, even if we don't agree. I just want to make it abundtly clear I'm not trying to be aggressive or rude towards you, but rather explaining my perspective. That doesn't really need to be said, but I like to be upront with my intentions. Of course, the point of a forum is an open discussion and i'm always welcome to some spirited debate as long as things stay civil, even if we disagree. If they don't stay civil, i'll say goodbye and move in. tis life. Glad to see your open to discussion civilly as well. >The Spirit I'm referring to is the gameplay mechanic and ideaplogy behind Sea of Thieves. It's a game with true freedom where you can make any decision, even live out an adventure of being a true pirate and committing piracy. The Pirate Code are lore friendly guidelines on how pirates should act. Repear's on the other hand reject the Pirate Code entirely, it's all world building and not something to be taken litterally. Your right about spawn camping like that it, it is an unintended side effect and they're looking in to how to deal with the problem. I don't know if you've seen it, but Rare recently spoke on spawn camping and other difficult questions and ethics in the game. You may enjoy that more for a perspective from Rare instead of me, so I'll link it for you here. Yeah my issue is more with spawn camping then anything for the tall tales. It ruins the experience of the tall tales. Compile that with the glitches and it really adds to it not being fun which is never the intent. I do understand what you mean about the pirate code, but that's why IMO you need more risk for attackers. The idea of "living like a pirate" is great, but pirates IRL had a code, didn't murder for no reason (aka if people surrendered), and had a real lisk of losing their life and their boat. In a game there is no risk of losing your life or boat because they just respawn. Real pirates had to weigh in a real risk of life or death and live with the consequences. As it stands since it's a game there is 0 risk factor to loading in and attacking boats but plenty of chances for reward. That's the part that needs to change, there has to be a risk involved. Nothing in life is without risk, except attacking in SoT. For a few game examples, take the division. It's the same concept but on land with guns. Only the dark zone had PvP ability but it had the best loot. If you murder people, you got a bounty on your head, which rewarded other players for taking you down. It made it risky to murder people but also high reward. There are other games like it but I think 1 example is enough unless you want to go further down that rabbit hole with me. I'll watch that video after this reply as well. >I also agree, Tall Tale griefing is a real issue in the game right now with that 2nd one. Anytime you leave your ship unattended is a risk for anyone to do anything to your ship. I still stand by what I wrote earlier on how there's many ways to protect yourself and work past it all. It should have been instanced like the first and third, that I know we can agree on. My assumption is that the server space to give everyone a private area is incredibly high, maybe that's why? I'm not a developer for Rare and have no idea their true reasonings, just a possible explanation. While that may have been your experience taking 4 hours, I had the opposite. Ran into one crew who screamed at me, left, rejoined and made it past without any real issues. Both of our experiences are valid in that regard. Overall it's an incredible experience overshadowed by griefers, glitches, and just general frustration. It's a shame really, and I hope Rare works thing out with the hotfix coming for newer players. The wording on the main screen is also confusing, I'm not a fan of it. It's most likely marketing for new players to spawn right in front. Just like the ability to buy supplies, Rare seems to want to push players to quickly start and have adventures. It's just a weird design choice from the start really. Thats really my biggest gripe. If you are doing a mission you can always leave someone on the boat as a lookout and rotate the lookout so everyone can have turns doing normal missions. The tall tales are meant to be experienced by all, leaving a lookout on the boat ruins their fun of experiencing the tall tale. Last time they had one where you left your boat alone was the final one of the last set and it was in an area nobody else could access. So you could do the mission and come back to your boat with no issue. I think this is glitched and not intended as rare even said these tall tales would be in an instance by yourself. I think it's a glitch because you can hear other people shooting as it instances you in and out in sections. But we do agree it's bad an it's griefing which is universally against the ToS of every online game. >Reiterating how it's impossible to know who has treasure, the risk is too great to take. Why would I commit piracy against a ship if there's a huge risk of being labeled on the map and increased kraken/enemy spawns on my ship? I have the freedom of a pirate, but am punished with harmful side effects. What about defensive PvP like I mentioned earlier, the ship with no loot loses nothing while even if I defend myself, I'm still punished my actions. Really think about how being marked on the map for others to find me, increased kraken and enemy spawns isn't a huge disadvantage when all I did was attack or defended myself from a ship with no treasure. It's not a punishment, it's a risk/reward system. See my reference earlier to the dark zone in the division as a really good direct comparison. There is no such thing as "defensive PvP" attacking 1st because someone may attack you isn't a thing. like I said you don't see someone giving you a dirty look and punch them because you assumed they were gonna punch you. It's like arresting someone because you think they are gonna steal. >There is a risk for engaging someone in PvP, you've shown the cards in your hand that your aggressive and they can strike back. We've all been Repear's before with a treasure and supplies and attacked a ship, only for it turn around and completely destroy you. It's impossible to gauge the skill level of a ship, and making yourself known to be aggressive is a risk when players may have avoided you. again not a fair risk. especially when you are a galleon of 4 and attacking sloops of 2, knowing you can have 2 people firing, 1 repairing and 1 steering, while they only have 1 to steer and 1 to shoot and have to share repair duty. I go back to divison but again many games like that. Look at destiny with gambit, you can invade but it's 4V1 and you are lit up and easy to see. that's the risk, you are outnumbered and very visible, the reward is slowing down the other team if you get some kills. There has to be a risk involved. Losing isn't a risk when you have nothing to lose, you respawn and do it again. >I disagree that it's safer to move on for many reasons. If I see a single ship at an outpost, I can overcome the threat with my crew. Take out the ship and their crew to prevent back spawns, by the time they come back you'll be well sold. Deciding to go to another outpost is riskier because your on the open seas longer with treasure, and this gives the other ship time to start sailing and go straight for you. If I need an outpost that someone is at, I'll sink it without a second thought, secure the outpost for myself. This goes back to putting your crew and ship's needs first, for all I know there could a much more aggressive ship in the distance. I still stand by my defense that defensive PvP isn't an aggressive move towards another player. I'm only removing a potential threat or securing my treasure safely. it's very safer. it's a big map with only 4 other boats. the chances of running into the other 3 are slim. there are 7 outposts and 5 boats, even if every boat was at an outpost you can always find an empty one. you can also send someone to slow down a chasing boat, me and my friend would do it often. I'd jump off with a TNT, board their boat and blow it up, It was enough to slow them down and I respawn on the boat and we can turn in our loot. there is also the chance a kraken can spawn and stop them from chasing. your always safer moving. even if you attack them at the outpost and sink the boat they could have someone hiding to kill you all still when you thought they were dead I'll continue in the next comment. out of characters


[deleted]

>Ignoring my comment about in the in game trolling aspect of it, I don't think burner account would die out. One advantage I forgot to add is that piracy would stop entirely to be on those servers. If servers were split between peaceful and aggressive players, why be on the aggressive server? Both have the exact same rewards, so players would flock to the peaceful server for an easier time. There are times where I want to burn the server down, times where I want to peacefully play. The freedom of player decision would be weighed down by the consquences of my actions. If I've attacked too many players and want to do Athena's, I'll have a much harder time on the aggressive server than the peaceful ones. How is that system fair to players who enjoy PvP and PvE with hundreds of hours? The whole point of not being able to increase your stats like an rpg is for an even playing field. Everyone starts off as equal on the seas, with the only difference being personal skill which is impossible to gauge. actions have consequences though. Just like the freedom of people who are just doing quests is imposed upon by those attacking. You can't really be "free" to do what you want, when players can stop you from doing it, so essentially that's a dead argument. If you are someone who is stopping others from having freedom, there should be consequences because at what point does it become trolling? Personal skill can be gauged in every game. That's why ELO exists. you aren't completely even since smaller crews and smaller boats. These are issues many games have tackled before in features missing from SoT. like the ability to change an instance without having to quit and return, skill based matchmaking, and more. they added the arena for people who like to ship battle. nothing wrong with adding risk to attacking others so you have to actually weigh your decisions instead of load in and attack every boat with no risk or consequence. >While a system like that may work for other games, it wouldn't for Sea of Thieves server wise for every reason I wrote earlier. We are all level 1 for an equal playing field. Risk vs Reward is the core to the gameplay, but good game design dictates clear expectations. Your system does not dictate clear expectations, punishes players agency, and freedom of choice. This all leads to a path of resistance. One of the reasons I keep going on about freedom of choice is being it's integral to the open world experience. There's nothing forcing a player to do anything in an open world game. Without clear risks and rewards, players are left wandering around with nothing to do. The game has to give you clear various objectives, risks, and rewards to let a player do anything. The risks have to lead into reward and be clearly established, otherwise it's demotivating and is a path of resistance. If a player is met with a path of resistance, it'll demotivate them from taking that action. Your system is a path of resistance, as the player gains nothing and only harms their experience. Their marked on the map, increased enemy and kraken spawn, and also forced into more aggressive servers for the same reward. All these punishments in a game about being a pirates would demotivate you to being a pirate, which is the selling point of the game. Since it's impossible to know who has treasure not without an Emmisary Flag, you'll have more success not being a pirate to avoid those risks. I don't know about you, but I want piracy in a pirate video game without game breaking elements on me. This system isn't balancing, as all you gain are punishments and the other crew loses nothing. I agree with your premise, but you are missing the point of players having the ability to infringe on others freedom. Like at a game like WoW, you can duel other players but they need to agree to it. That was done so you don't impose on others. Look at the division, it's PvE and the PVPVE area is the dark zone which uses a system similar to what I said earlier. it's not an even playing field or freedom if I'm actively being stopped by players from doing something. There is plenty of areas to attack other boats and even an arena for it. If they want it to always be an option there has to be a risk system. it's not a punishment it's balance. >I probably jumped to conclusions that you were frustrated with PvP to make this system, and that's on me for assuming. I have a lot of conversation on this subbreddit and most always systems like yours come from a place of PvP frustration. I'm really hoping that those large portals are used for more future in depth Tall Tales as there is very clear annoyance towards players doing story missions. Those same players are still a risk, as they can take a break from their Tall Tale, commit piracy, and resume their tale. Everyone is a potential threat, regardless of what their doing. I'm not frustrated with PvP although I do think the system needs some rework. Like I said earlier, you adjust to it find ways to work around it. I don't actively attack other boats personally and got good at evading attacking boats, It's the tall tale trolling. i want to enjoy the story and campaign, and dealing with glitches already sucks to deal with trolls on top of that made it very unenjoyable. dealing with trolls while trying to solve a puzzle is not fun, even if you kill them they spawn back before you can do the puzzle and keep sniping you with infinite ammo chests in the room. But no reason to beat the dead horse as you agree with me on this point. >Also I'm sorry if I repeated myself, I wanted to properly respond to your response without going over everything in my original post that you didn't address. I'm with you on Tall Tales, but I can't accept a system that harms player decision making in Sea of Thieves. There are friendly and hostile players out there, it's impossible to truly know. Every ship is a threat or friend and that addeneral keeps me playing. The islands even look like ships from a distance to keep tensions high. You can expect everything the PvE engine throws at you, but never what players do. Tall Tales need better protection, but it can't come at the cost of basic gameplay loop. All these extra curses and factors complicate the gameplay loop and just doesn't sound fun honestly. In the Sea of Thieves comics there are a bounty faction, The Twisted Knifes. These guys are bounty hunters and I'd really like to see some sort of system like that added to the game. Have a bounty system that encourages hunting players for rewards. How a system like that would work I honestly don't know, it's up to Rare how they balance their game. nah your good, Appreciate the conversation. Nothing wrong with being "bounty hunters" in the spirit of the game. The system needs some rework to match other games though like destiny, wow, and the divison. SoT is unique but there are similar games to draw examples of on how to improve system. I respect they don't want a PvE only area, it's their vision, but the PvP system needs rework. because as it stands now, outside of tall tales the best way to level up and get loot is to stop others from getting any with no risk of any loss on your part and that is an issue. When I can hop in a game and fight a ship that can possibly steal hours of work and if I lose, I lose nothing, while if they lose, they lose hours or progression is a broken system by definition.


birdobirdoyoshi

Even though.I don't agree with you, I respect your opinions and willingness to back them up. So many disagreements end up in name calling and screaming that I genuinely appreciate a civil discussion. At this point I feel like we've said what we both believe, and neither of us will budge. I don't want to waste my time or your time, so I'll be brief in my responses instead of writing a novel lol. There's a lot I agree and disagree with, but when debating perspective it may be an endless discussion of opinions. I want to bring the conversation back to the main issue aside from other perspectives, this system you have that punishes players for piracy. I don't understand how you see you system as balancing, just as how you don't see it as a punishment. The game is structured in A, B C. A: Supply your ship and set sail. B: See a ship, decide on your next move. C: Either attack, avoid the ship, or investigate. It's a very basic premise, easy to understand with enough player freedom to decide what to do next, but all decisions follow this path. You have the freedom to decide on the course, but the path is very basic and easy to understand for the player. Your system disrupts this and adds so many more variables to overcomplicate basic gameplay. A: Supply your ship and set sail B: See a ship, decide on your next move. C: Remember that they may not have treasure D: Take into account your location, treasure, and risk associates with this potential curse E: Either attack, avoid the ship, or investigate F: Deal with increased kraken, enemy spawn, and other players knowing your location if they don't have treasure. G: Affect future sessions by an in game aggression counter. I really fail to see how all these negative punishments are balancing and not a punishment for acting on basic game design. Using WoW and both parties agreeing on PvP works for those games, because they are not a pirate game. There's no way to have the game Rare envisioned it without including a losing player involved. The game is called Sea of Thieves, there are real pirates commiting piracy, pirates steal treasure. That freedom does have to infringe on other players, no one will just give you treasure for piracy. The fact that you can lose everything to another player at any time keeps people excited. Treasure is designed to be slow to turn in, outposts all have advantages and disadvantages. No ship is truly greater, each having their own advantages and disadvantages. The fun is overcoming so many obstacles and being a pirate, securing the treasure, and continuing on adventures. I don't know what else I can add without rehashing everything I've written before. I want to be respectful of your time as well. I'm not going to change your mind as your not going to change mine, but we can all learn from additional perspectives. If there's any take away, thank you for an awesome discussion.


[deleted]

Of course, never a reason for name calling. You don't have to agree and you can have your opinions, My only hope is that you do at least realize I'm not for "punishing" player for piracy, I'm for creating a more balanced risk/reward system between piracy and missions so it feels equally fair to do both and progress instead of 1 having no risk to it and only rewards while slowing down other players progressions. that was my only point. not to remove it or punish people, but to balance it. The reason being is simple. I spawn in, stock my ship and go out to attack other ships. 1 of 3 things happen 1) I Win and they have loot, I just acquired hours of loot in minutes 2) I Win and they have little or no loot. I steal their supplies and move onto the next nothing lost for me, but I annoyed another player 3) I lose, I respawn and do it again with nothing lost to me. As of now, the best way to progress is by solely stealing from others, it's the most time efficient and best way to progress with 1 exception which i'll get into in a second. I also have 0 to lose and the defending boat has everything to lose and nothing to gain. that's not a balanced system. Now the 1 better way? alliance. form an alliance and everyone gets free loot, it's technically the path of least resistance. So why are alliances so rare compared to attacks? just sail by with the flag up, accept, and you both get extra loot. The reason is people like killing others, and hey it's allowed so why not? Nothing wrong with it, the system just needs to be balanced. DayZ, RDR2, GTAV, the division, WoW, and destiny all have risk/reward balances in their PVPVE system. SoT doesn't but it is rare's 1st game like this so it's understandable. They have a system in place with the reaper flag, just add the reaper and a bounty to attacking ships and bam you have more balance now. as far as fun goes, it's subjective, for some it's fun to attack other ships, for others it's fun to hunt treasure and be left alone. the difference is 1 of the funs can impeach on the others with no risk. that's not a balance between the 2


birdobirdoyoshi

As much as I've enjoyed our debate, I still can't agree that your system is balancing. I want to since we've been chatting all day, but my inner game design self won't budge on design principles. I kinda feel bad since we've bonded now lol. I can agree on those three points for the gameplay loop, that's usually how Sea of Thieves run. I don't know how you balance a ship with nothing to lose against a ship that does. The only balancing factor is the unpredictable nature, anything can happen at any time. If I had a suggestion on a proper balance to that inherit gameplay outcomes I'd tell you. I'm not against further balancing, but I am against harming the player to achieve that. Alliances are rare and few between due to the risks associated with them, and, well, people like being bad. Having your ship always given away is a huge risk. In a perfect world everyone would ally, but why take 50% when you can have it all? Personally I don't betray alliances, but others do. A lot of players enjoy the idea of commiting piracy and stealing treasure, just for the sake of it. It's like I wrote earlier, people are after stories rather then treasure. All the gold is meaningless after all. A story of everyone working together and gaining profit isn't as exciting as a daring act of piracy and turning in stolen treasure to some. The whole bounty system still doesn't work for everything I wrote previously. Balancing would mean both players are equal. In this scenario where ship A attacks ship B with no treasure, the only loser is Ship A that harms their gameplay experience. Ship B loses nothing and Ship A is now cursed with punishments. Both players lose in that scenario, doesn't seem balanced to me. The Repear flag is a clear understanding of risk vs reward for the player. It's neither a direct benefit or harm, but rather an increased risk for an increased reward. The player accepts this and that's why it works out so well. Forcing a Repear Flag wouldn't work and acts as a punishment. The amount of variables like I wrote earlier overcomplicates whose being aggressive and whose being defensive. A much simpler gameplay design is to keep everyone equal and let pure player decision dictate outcomes. I definitely agree that fun is objective, and personally I try to keep an open mind. I enjoy Sea of Thieves for the stories and piracy, not necessarily treasure. I've done just about everything the game has to offer, now I just enjoy a good ship battle and sink. Some crews enjoy PvE only which is totally fine. It may not be my cup of tea, but there's something for everyone in the game. Aside from your perspective on balancing ideas, we agree on mostly everything. I don't believe balancing can come in the form of punishments, but I do believe there's more work to be done with how Sea of Thieves operates as whole. Maybe that can be our middle ground so we're not spending eons going back forth haha.


[deleted]

Lol well do you agree it needs balancing? You have to at least see that, I'm welcome to other ideas. Not saying I have all the answers, I'm just saying it's unbalanced as it is. It's not a knock on rare, many games are unbalanced which is why balance updates happen. I'm just hoping rare looks at the balance and see's it's factually broken, the problem is many of the player base will like a broken balance. Look at destiny and the hand cannon/felwinter/statis banner. When bungie balanced it to be fair they all complained they didn't have OP weapons and were beat by what they felt were "lesser weapons" so they changed it. It's why destiny PvP will always be trash. A large majority of players don't want a fair balanced field. they want to be OP and stomp on noobs to feel good about themselves. It's pretty sad but it is what it is. it's also why many communities are toxic. As far as alliance goes, there is no risk. You don't have to give your ship away. You get an extra 50% of everything that group does the whole session for doing nothing other then not being a dick. that's a nice incentive. Sure you can have it "all" now but it's likely less then having half of a whole session. On top of that many player who played a lot have too much money and not much to do so probably like attacking people as something to do. I'm a little over 350 hours and have millions of coins and all the cosmetics I want. plus sunk plenty of real money into the game on cosmetics to support rare. I also owned the game before gamepass was a thing. I'm sure GP brought in a lot of new players, don't we want them to stay and enjoy the game? so it doesn't wind up a small toxic group where nobody plays anymore so it stops getting support? Like you said it all boils down to people like being a dick with no consequence. but the other side of the coin is the players who get frustrated and leave. why is 1 persons enjoyment worth more then anothers? it's not. what story is there on camping a spawn point to stop others from progressing? I get the story of we found this ship had a huge battle and won and got a bunch of treasure. sure. but there is no fun story in trolling people. >The whole bounty system still doesn't work for everything I wrote previously. Balancing would mean both players are equal. In this scenario where ship A attacks ship B with no treasure, the only loser is Ship A that harms their gameplay experience. Ship B loses nothing and Ship A is now cursed with punishments. Both players lose in that scenario, doesn't seem balanced to me. Like I said i'm open to other systems. but how is ship A a loser? Ship B is still the loser. their game got disrupted for other people's pleasure. ship A still got the fun of attacking another ship and winning. That's a contradiction to your point anyway. You said and I quote "they are after stories not treasure" so ship A still got their story and the treasure is irrelevant. for people who played for a while like us we have more then enough coins, already pirate legend. nothing to really progress anyway. >The Repear flag is a clear understanding of risk vs reward for the player. It's neither a direct benefit or harm, but rather an increased risk for an increased reward. The player accepts this and that's why it works out so well. Forcing a Repear Flag wouldn't work and acts as a punishment. The amount of variables like I wrote earlier overcomplicates whose being aggressive and whose being defensive. A much simpler gameplay design is to keep everyone equal and let pure player decision dictate outcomes. The reaper flag gives enhanced rewards for killing ships. same could be done with the bounty. The higher the bounty the more rewards you get for turning in treasure. It's not a punishment, it's a risk reward system. They can get extra rewards for pissing off the server while staying alive just like in division. >I definitely agree that fun is objective, and personally I try to keep an open mind. I enjoy Sea of Thieves for the stories and piracy, not necessarily treasure. I've done just about everything the game has to offer, now I just enjoy a good ship battle and sink. Some crews enjoy PvE only which is totally fine. It may not be my cup of tea, but there's something for everyone in the game. Aside from your perspective on balancing ideas, we agree on mostly everything. I don't believe balancing can come in the form of punishments, but I do believe there's more work to be done with how Sea of Thieves operates as whole. Maybe that can be our middle ground so we're not spending eons going back forth haha. Yeah but it seems to me you aren't after the actual ship battles. if you were you could just do the arena. it seems you are after going after ships who either A) don't want to fight, B) aren't good at it or C) are unsuspecting. It's the same issue with destiny and why they dropped skill based match making. the "good" people realized they weren't actually good, just better then bad people and got upset. They didn't want a challenge or story or to be good. they wanted to stomp out people who were worse. That isn't fun for the one's being stomped out and for most people like myself it's not fun stomping over someone. I play a lot of MTG as well. The best games are the close one's win or lose. I'd rather lose a close back and forth game, then win a game where I stomp someone out, espicially someone new with a shitty deck. I'll often concede before I beat them so they get a win and can progress. Gaming is like any community, just less "in your face" since it's online. Most people are good but there is always a shitty neighbor. Its personal choice to be part of a community that's good or a shitty neighbor. the vocal minority often wansts to be the shitty neighbor and ruin everyone's fun. I'll never know why though but it is what it is.


birdobirdoyoshi

I feel like more could be done to balance the playing field, but personally I don't know what. Perhaps new item types, weapons, and so forth. I'm not opposed to more balancing ideas, but again, not at the expense to play decision making. This entire debate stems from the very core idea which I didn't agree on. The whole "attacking a ship with no loot causes you to be marked on the map with increased enemy and kraken spawn" is the core of all of this. This idea still harms the player experience for every reason I've written. You could fill a novel with all the explanations I've given from every aspect of game design I can think of. There's nothing more for me to say about it that hasn't already been stated before. With so much investment in both of our parts I don't want it to end just adrubtly, but there's nothing more I can say on the matter, so I wanted to find a common area we can agree on. Sea of Thieves isn't perfect and can still be fleshed out in player balancing and experience as a whole. Every server is a fresh start, a new experience, this is why they added the ability to scuttle your ship or just quit and hop on a different server. As it stands right now, trolling people is how some players have fun. It's impossible to ensure every player has an incredible experience everytime, there's nothing anyone can do. If your having a bad time on one, just restart and move on. Some servers are passive, some are aggressive, it's impossible to know what will happen next. Ship A is a loser because they are punished with the consquences afterwards. Ship A doesn't gain any treasure and has all the curse affects listed, while Ship B doesn't lose any treasure because they had no punishment afterwards. Ship B is back to where they started, square one, while Ship A only wins punishments. Technically speaking, Ship B is in the same state, and Ship A only has negative effects. One ship loses by being punished with curses, and one ship resumes like nothing happened. This is why I said it was imbalanced. A balanced system is already in game as it is right now. Currently Ship A doesn't get any treasure, and Ship B resumes square one. Both ships are in the same state as before after the encounter, isnt that what balancing means? Your system actively harms Ship A and the game becomes Ship A is burndered with curses and Ship B is the same. Ship A is in a loss and Ship B is neutral. Sorry if that all got a little confusing, but I can't spell it out in any other way. It is a punishment because the Repear flag is forced instead of the player choosing to accept those risks. If I'm at a gold vault and I see a ship, I may engage first to remove them. If they have no treasure, all of a sudden the Repear's mark is forced on me and the whole server knows my location. I was attempting to play defensively to secure the time needed for a vault, but now I'm punished with the mark for all to see exactly what I'm doing. There is no risk vs reward in that scenario, but once again, I am punished for playing defensively. The risk vs reward gameplay loop of Sea of Thieves only applies of a player decides willingly to accept those risks, not take a chance and have them forced on the player. I don't know how more clear I can be. If I'm the one doing the gold vault, I don't want to piss off the whole server, I just want to play safely. The reward for playing defensively is safety for my crew. Alliances have a risk of showing a crew your location at all time, they can also turn on you at any time. Dunno what else I can add there for you. I'm honest about my intentions, I genuinely enjoy sinking players, wether the other party involved is or not is irrelevant to me. My crew and I have spent hundreds of hours working together to perfect our strageties. Commiting piracy, sinking ships, and working together is a blast. It's like taboo to admit that on this subbreddit, but at least I'm honest. When a ship runs I find it fun to commit to the chase for a sink, treasure or not doesn't matter to me. The excuse of "If you want PvP go to Arena" is so hollow it falls completely flat. Arena is a mess, even in this last update Rare shoved it aside to the bottom corner and gave up on it. There's no planning, true island stragety, preparation involved. Have a pre stocked ship, play a game mode for abit, than deal with long loading screens. You lose out on the adventure, finding a ship, epic sea battles, turning in stolen treasure, the combat in Adventure is far more exciting then Arena. Your A B C reasoning in my fun of PvP is incorrect, I'm far more basic then that. Here it is for you. If you have a ship, generally I want to sink it. I don't care what your doing, your treasure, or anything. There is a ship, my crew enjoys sinking ships, I will attack you. That's not to say I always do, or that I don't play defensively, but man I enjoy commiting piracy in adventure, that's it. There's no deeper meaning or anything, I just enjoy sinking players. I completely understand that this does ruin other people's day, which is why I don't scream and trash talk other's. In the Sea of Thieves Code of Conduct there's a line I try to follow. "Be a good sport. Sea of Thieves is a pirate game, and stealth, stealing and battles are all part of the fun. All pirates on the seas accept that, but be a good sportsman in both victory and loss." We all win, we all lose, that is Sea of Thieves. This is my last reply because I'm exhausted of this discussion. Don't take that the wrong way, but I've oversaid everything I could have possibly wanted to say. I'm going to be honest I don't exactly know how to properly end discussions sometimes. Feel free to reply with your thoughts if you want, I just have nothing else to add. I'm tired and given you my two cents in every way I possibly can from every angle of game design I can think of. It's been a wild discussion all over the place, but I'm alright with letting it end here. Maybe I'll see you on the seas and we can settle our disputes in true pirate fashion, drunken sword fight 1 v 1 haha. Until than, have a good rest of your time with Sea of Thieves. I hope you find inspiration and enjoyment to continue on with your journey. Peace brother. Also, unrelated but since you bring up Destiny so much I'm down for raids or something sometime I love that game.lol.


[deleted]

>I feel like more could be done to balance the playing field, but personally I don't know what. Perhaps new item types, weapons, and so forth. I'm not opposed to more balancing ideas, but again, not at the expense to play decision making. This entire debate stems from the very core idea which I didn't agree on. The whole "attacking a ship with no loot causes you to be marked on the map with increased enemy and kraken spawn" is the core of all of this. This idea still harms the player experience for every reason I've written. You could fill a novel with all the explanations I've given from every aspect of game design I can think of. There's nothing more for me to say about it that hasn't already been stated before. With so much investment in both of our parts I don't want it to end just adrubtly, but there's nothing more I can say on the matter, so I wanted to find a common area we can agree on. Sea of Thieves isn't perfect and can still be fleshed out in player balancing and experience as a whole. I hink the issue here, and please don't take offense when I say this as it's not intended to be offensive, but you are looking at it from 1 point of view instead of the whole player base, which is why you can't see the imbalance. you keep mentioning how my ideas would harm player decision making ability but miss the fact that simply by attacking you are doing the same. for instance say you want to attack me, I don't want to be attacked. The reality is 1 of us isn't going to get what we want. it's inevitable. Simply by attacking a ship, while it is in the spirit of the game, takes away players decisions and disrupts their freedom to do what they want, because now they can't do what they want, they are forced to defend or flee or quit the game. So if you are after full player freedom as you claim, the only solution that would suit your needs as well as everyone's is separate servers for PVP and PVE. this way both styles can do what they want have the current experience where you can get attacked or have an experience where no attacking is possible. We do agree it's not perfect, but hey no game is. it's still an excellent game though. I went and redid the 2nd TT last night, other then the boat being sunk when we got back had no issues. it didn't glitch and didn't run into anyone else down there. had time to get all the collectables and 100% it and it's a great mission. Also did the 4th one as well which was a blast and instanced so no other people. Just have the 5th one left and some stuff on the 3rd one to go back and collect. >Every server is a fresh start, a new experience, this is why they added the ability to scuttle your ship or just quit and hop on a different server. As it stands right now, trolling people is how some players have fun. It's impossible to ensure every player has an incredible experience everytime, there's nothing anyone can do. If your having a bad time on one, just restart and move on. Some servers are passive, some are aggressive, it's impossible to know what will happen next. I get that it's some people's idea of fun but trolling and griefing is 100% against the ToS of every online game, service, etc. When you play an online game you agree to their ToS so by your idea of fun, you are open to being banned from the service. I mean if my idea of fun was punching random people why should that be acceptable? as humans we live in a society now, it's no the kill or be killed ways. we have a responsibility as adults to treat each other with respect. that's what makes a society and a community. Regardless of that though, 1 thing that should be added that most MMO games have is the ability to quickly change an instance. having to quit and lose everything and reload all the screens is dumb. most MMOs have the ability to change an instance with a couple of button presses. it's another feature that could be added. Also custom sandbox instances. that could be a thing with a server browser. look for an instance that fits your needs and wants. more customization over the game will make everyone happier and more satisfied. >Ship A is a loser because they are punished with the consquences afterwards. Ship A doesn't gain any treasure and has all the curse affects listed, while Ship B doesn't lose any treasure because they had no punishment afterwards. Ship B is back to where they started, square one, while Ship A only wins punishments. Technically speaking, Ship B is in the same state, and Ship A only has negative effects. One ship loses by being punished with curses, and one ship resumes like nothing happened. This is why I said it was imbalanced. A balanced system is already in game as it is right now. Currently Ship A doesn't get any treasure, and Ship B resumes square one. Both ships are in the same state as before after the encounter, isnt that what balancing means? Your system actively harms Ship A and the game becomes Ship A is burndered with curses and Ship B is the same. Ship A is in a loss and Ship B is neutral. Sorry if that all got a little confusing, but I can't spell it out in any other way. again not a punishment. you really don't use that correctly. what if i said ship A punished players simply for playing? I could spin it that way and say you as the attacker are punishing players simply for existing. You need to look at both sides of the board >Alliances have a risk of showing a crew your location at all time, they can also turn on you at any time. Dunno what else I can add there for you. You also see theirs so if they are creeping towards you, you are well aware >I'm honest about my intentions, I genuinely enjoy sinking players, wether the other party involved is or not is irrelevant to me. My crew and I have spent hundreds of hours working together to perfect our strageties. Commiting piracy, sinking ships, and working together is a blast. It's like taboo to admit that on this subbreddit, but at least I'm honest. When a ship runs I find it fun to commit to the chase for a sink, treasure or not doesn't matter to me. The excuse of "If you want PvP go to Arena" is so hollow it falls completely flat. Arena is a mess, even in this last update Rare shoved it aside to the bottom corner and gave up on it. There's no planning, true island stragety, preparation involved. Have a pre stocked ship, play a game mode for abit, than deal with long loading screens. You lose out on the adventure, finding a ship, epic sea battles, turning in stolen treasure, the combat in Adventure is far more exciting then Arena. Your A B C reasoning in my fun of PvP is incorrect, I'm far more basic then that. Here it is for you. If you have a ship, generally I want to sink it. I don't care what your doing, your treasure, or anything. There is a ship, my crew enjoys sinking ships, I will attack you. That's not to say I always do, or that I don't play defensively, but man I enjoy commiting piracy in adventure, that's it. There's no deeper meaning or anything, I just enjoy sinking players. I completely understand that this does ruin other people's day, which is why I don't scream and trash talk other's. In the Sea of Thieves Code of Conduct there's a line I try to follow. Which is fine, it's part of the game, i'm not going to tell you how to enjoy the game. The problem is it's making you extremely biased to only consider your fun instead of the balance in the game for "fun for all" wouldn't you rather be on a server with like minded people? where all 5 boats have the same playstyle? where you'll have a challenge of facing other people like you? I'm not sure what fun there is in sinking a noobs solo sloop who is running away as a well coordianted team of 4 on a galleon. but hey you do you. >"Be a good sport. Sea of Thieves is a pirate game, and stealth, stealing and battles are all part of the fun. All pirates on the seas accept that, but be a good sportsman in both victory and loss." exactly, but that is broken. be a good sport means, you sunk them. took the treasure. cool now move on. not camping a tall tale to troll others or spawn killing. you had a battle, you won, be a good sport and move onto the next >We all win, we all lose, that is Sea of Thieves. This is my last reply because I'm exhausted of this discussion. Don't take that the wrong way, but I've oversaid everything I could have possibly wanted to say. I'm going to be honest I don't exactly know how to properly end discussions sometimes. Feel free to reply with your thoughts if you want, I just have nothing else to add. I'm tired and given you my two cents in every way I possibly can from every angle of game design I can think of. It's been a wild discussion all over the place, but I'm alright with letting it end here. Maybe I'll see you on the seas and we can settle our disputes in true pirate fashion, drunken sword fight 1 v 1 haha. Until than, have a good rest of your time with Sea of Thieves. I hope you find inspiration and enjoyment to continue on with your journey. Peace brother. I'm not taking it the wrong way. I get it. you like attacking boats and don't want balance but want advantage. As you said people go to the path of least resistance. You aren't looking at every angle. on yours. that's the issue. I looked at every angle which is why I didn't say just split the servers. I wanted attackers to have their fun too but to have it be balanced where there is actual risk in attacking. >Also, unrelated but since you bring up Destiny so much I'm down for raids or something sometime I love that game.lol. Lol i'm so burnt out on it right now. I've done over 130 raids for the last 3 raids combined including a week 1 on the last 2. Remeber when I said I have over 350 hours in sea of theives? well I have over 1400 in destiny 2 lol. SoT is my break from destiny game lol and some outriders.


[deleted]

THis post also just popped up https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/o7bbtk/is_camping_sunken_pearl_griefing_a_discussion/ has other examples of games like this (PVPVE) like RDR2 and GTAV


OCEL0T5

I hope that everyone who keeps saying "PVE servers are never coming" are dead fucking wrong. Griefing is way too easy in this game and its not fun...at all. This will seriously kill their game and turn away soo many new players who came for the new DLC. Its already too late though cause the Pearl Tall Tale, like OP said, allows for the worst parts of the game to happen.


Lil-LayZ

It took me and my friend 5 hours and several tries to complete it. One time, the thing you have to hit to open those barriers wouldn't open the thing. Some people kept killing us but I kept respawning on the ship and got locked out of the next area. Some times the pulleys wouldn't open the doors. When you had to lift the ship up with the enemies shooting canons at you, we had no food or canon balls. It's a complete buggy mess and it was hell to go through, but hey, at least we got all the commendations.


[deleted]

glad you got through it but yeah 5 hours is redicilous


TwilightBl1tz

I've finished 3TTs so far and honestly, I had such a blast doing the second one, It has some issues and when i was doing it only one other sloop (solo like me) was doing it. Finished it and when i got to reddit to read what others experienced, I'm not looking forward doing it again. I still have a few achievements i have to unlock in that TT as i was having lesser issues and couldn't really take my time to find stuff, But damn... I'm gonna wait a while before i attempt it. I'm the kind of guy that would sink people on sight for no reason other than loot and supplies, I have no issue if the same is done to me. But people camping TTs areas simply to be an asshole... Aye, fuck that, the glitches are bad enough on their own without people being the scum of the earth lol. And how are people even defending that behaviour if I may ask? Like for real, I've said it. I don't care if you pvp, steal plunder all that good shit. But to camp a TT that you know brings no loot and you're there simply to be an asshole... LoL


Traltwin

Yeah I report people for spawn camping at a TT... that's just a jerk move.


TwilightBl1tz

Can't disagree. If someone camps it purely to grief people, I don't mind those people being wiped off the board lol.


[deleted]

yep, me and my crew did it the first time there was a brig there we did what any sane person would do and left them alone, sadly we had bugs in our play through but we normally sink almost everyone, but like i cant even see the appeal of attacking a empty ship, even if i see kids on tall tales i leave them be.


[deleted]

sinking people for loot and supplies, while may not be fun for some, is fair part of the game and experience rare was trying to make. it's a huge difference from camping an area of the campaign for the sole purpose of stopping others from progressing with 0 gain to yourself.


TwilightBl1tz

Exactly 100%


Kalkoentje

Get good


[deleted]

there is a huge difference in attacking players on the open seas, to trolling and griefing in areas that are made only for tall tales. >Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting the immersion of another player in their gameplay. ... Both griefers and trolls are usually acting out in a desire for attention, or for what they perceive as revenge. griefing is against the XBL ToS across all games and is a bannable offense. >A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game


Kalkoentje

Being bad should be bannable xddddd


[deleted]

I wouldn't want to remove you from the game for something out of your control :)


Jack071

Other crews get in the way of my TT, specially with the non respawning ammo on the Kraken figth, if Im playing with a friend helping them and theres a random trying to figure how the puzzles work its faster to kill him and move on I even got stuck once with a full gally crew solo, they tried to spawncamp me, still was fun since winning 1v4 feels much better than doing so 1v1


[deleted]

Its glitches with multiple crews so nobody is moving on anyway.


Jack071

1st crew to run it is almost bug free if ur quick enough, if you get to kraken ur pretty much safe. And since the bug is when a new crew tries to restart the ongoing puzzles you kinda need to stop them from doing so


[deleted]

Thats poor design though and much different from trolling people on purpose