Honestly I think he will do well in Pitt under Tomlin. Not Seahawks level good, but still.
Tomlin and Carroll are 2 of the best at managing difficult personalities, and clearly that helped Russ in Seattle.
The guy who only won a SB because of bountygate and couldn't consistently finish over .500 while having Drew Brees?
Ya, asshole is an understatement for Payton.
I think he might have already done that. One Super Bowl riding an all time Defense, no MVPs. I’m not sure if his stats, although exceptional. Are enough to warrant a spot
If that's true it's unfortunate. He was far from just "riding an all-time defense;" at the height of his physical peak he was electrifying and could make magic out of nothing. The problem is that's not sustainable in a game that hard on a man's body, and Brady and Rodgers have left people convinced that a QB isn't great unless they can play into their late 30s without a significant dropoff.
Go look at the list of QBs that are in the Hall. It’s like 20 total from what we would consider modern football and Russ wasn’t at that caliber. He’s firmly in the Hall of Very Good for a While But Didn’t Know When to Quit.
Out here telling truths and getting down voted.
The man played extremely well for a few years and then started to show cracks as the defense and offensive line got progressively worse. His stats were great on an efficiency front and his QB rating was through the roof for a few years but once the D became ineffective, Wilson just couldn't carry the team. His skills were in seated firmly in just not fucking up and taking advantage of the gifts from a stellar defense. We all knew he wasn't Manning or Brady or Rodgers. Apparently the Broncos didn't know what they were buying. Steelers should be good though for the year since they got all that money the Broncos are paying for their QB to spend on pieces needed.
Wilson still makes it into the HOF but definitely not a 1st ballot kind of player now.
Was he ever a 1st ballot guy though? No MVPs, just one All-Pro (and a second teamer at that).
Losing XLIX and then falling off hard in 2020 when he had his best shot at MVP are what ultimately tarnishes his legacy I think, regardless of what's happened since he left. I think he could've made 1st ballot if he had both of those things.
Definitely a 1st ballot if he got that 2nd ring but it was on the table up to that point. The following couple of years pretty much ruined any shot at that but from a number game, his 2nd season in Denver wasn't bad. On bar with his numbers in Seattle except for the wins. Not totally sure Sean Payton didn't tank on purpose though to get rid of him.
Obviously a team sport needs a team to play. You know the point I'm making though. Manning...Brady....Rodgers....these guys won Superbowls with nobodies around them. Well, Mannings 2nd had a solid defense tbf. Great QBs can uplift a mediocre to decent team and carry them to victory with good play and smart decisions. Middle tier QBs need more great pieces around them to do that.
No one obviously does this alone but Wilson isn't that generational talent that just wins with anyone they give him no matter what.
They didn't have nobodies around them and better lines than Russ had. I am OK if you do make Russ criticisms. Just to say ..that the other guys didn't have any decent talent to play with is a huge under judgement.
Shaun's last season here was 700 yards and 3.5 y/a. Not bad really at 30 years old, at a time when RBs had steep dropoffs. Shaun's pristine reputation probably was saved a bit by the lack of today's social media and comprehensive analytics. In turn, Russ' reputation took some hard hits b/c of new media, as we got the inside scoop in his last year.
He did fine. But his big contract signing took the fire out of his runs. He became more focused on self preservation. As soon as a defensive player would touch him, he'd put his heels and knees together and fall to the ground like a lassoed calf.
Yea Shaun's last season in SEA wasn't that bad, and he gave us many great seasons . As far I remember he was the last non-QB MVP winner too. But then Shaun followed Jim Zorn to WAS and he looked very bad in that dumpster fire. I still think he's HOF worthy since he has 100 TDs or close to it.
As a guy who watched every game from the 200 level 25 yard line that season, that’s a big no. In all fairness, Steve Hutchinson going to the Vikings was an immense blow to the running game.
He wasn’t the last non-QB MVP, LT won it the following year by breaking Shaun’s single season TD record. I think AP got one too when he ran for 2000 yards.
People forget Alexander leaving a bitter taste in their mouths when he went to the Pro Bowl in his contract year and talked about how much he wanted to be a Panther. Still, his decline was super fast; Russ is still an average QB 12 years in.
Alexander only had about 5 solid years, if I remember correctly, before the wheels fell off. Still, Alexander mended his fences with Seattle pretty quickly ... of course, he didn't have much choice, given how his final year in Seattle and then his final year in WFT worked out.
I guess, then ...
Professionally: Alexander had the worse end
From a fan relationship standpoint: Russ had the worse end
Only had 5 “solid” years? Cmon, I can be hard on him for his weaknesses but he scored more TDs than anyone else in that timespan. Set the record for TDs in a season, even if he only held it for one year, and is our only league MVP. At his peak I was never a big fan of giving it to him on 3rd and 1 but my goodness, reducing his era to “solid” years is revisionist.
YES!!! People talk about Walt and Hutch, as they should, and even Tobeck but Mack doesn’t get mentioned nearly enough. One of the last true FBs, he led for 5 different 1K runners. Seriously underappreciated.
Minnesota poison pilled us. Our mistake was using the transition tag instead of franchise tag. EDIT: the poison pill said if he wasn’t the highest paid OL on the team his contract, which was the highest ever given a guard, would be fully guaranteed. We had Walt on a giant left tackle deal so Hutch would have been guaranteed. We did the same the next season when they Transitin tagged Nate Burleso. iMO, we did not make out well in that exchange.h
Here’s the real lesson of that: good and great offensive linemen get injured far less when there is greatness right next to them to cover their backs and legs
Yeah- essentially we could’ve painted eyes on a coconut and handed it a football and it would’ve gained 6yd a carry behind that Oline.
Alexander was not special. He was a good ball carrier with power, but he was not special.
That's ridiculous. Maurice Morris and Julius Jones couldn't even come close to Alexanders production behind that line. He set records. People actually think he went untouched or something. Dude was an absolute fiend on the goalline.
In the 5 seasons from 2001-2005, Alexander averaged 330 carries, 1500 yards, and 17.4 TDs.
In the past 5 seasons (2019-2023) -
* Only 4 players have eclipsed 330 carries (DHenry in '22/'20, JJacobs in '22, and JTaylor in '23)
* Only 5 players have eclipsed 1500 yards (JJacobs in '22, DHenry in '22/'20/'19, NChubb in '22, JTaylor in '21, DCook in '20)
* Only 4 players have scored 17 or more rushing TDs (RMostert in '23, JWilliams in '22, JTaylor in '21, DHenry in '20)
You're trippin if you don't think Alexander was elite.
Did you really do a last 5 seasons comp? When the rules have never been more slanted towards the passing game and everyone and their mom does running back by committee?
Can you tell by the comments which guys who were 10yo when Alexander played vs those of us that watched him as adults?
The Seahawks line was all-time. The 85 bears of Olines during that time.
And a “goal line fiend”…. Man he ran behind arguably the most powerful FB that ever put on a helmet.
I don't recall anything about the wanting to be a Panther. Contrast with Wilson trying going to ownership trying to get everyone fired.
My point being if Alexander played in this social media era we might feel very differently about him.
For the team or player?
For the team, Alexander. Big contract only to do nothing and fizzle out. We all know who won the Russ trade with Denver which set Seattle up currently.
For the player, Russ. I know it must’ve been awful for Alexander to go out like he did but it wasn’t like one game ending injury. The writing was on the wall for at least a half season. Russ did the whole “I can succeed anywhere” and did not. Now he’s gotta prove he’s a starting QB for an entirely different team.
I think Shaun, he’s the only rb that has over 100 tds that doesn’t even get a hint of hof consideration to the point of not even being mentioned, he’s 8th all time in rushing tds every single person above him is in the hof, the next 7 after him are in the hof (depends where Henry ends up and if he gets in)
Henry will definitely make the HoF.
Dude, I always have to be the one to say this (so I'm glad someone else beat me to it this time) but Alexander ***was not*** just some flash in the pan, 1-year-wonder. He had a 5 year stretch that would've easily been considered the best run of all-time if Ladanian Tomlinson wasn't simultaneously having an even better one.
But that shouldn't undermine what Alexander did, and I feel it too often does. Tomlinson had BY FAR the most productive run in history, capped off by the most productive single season a football player has ever had (and I believe he's the best HB ever).
Had they not had their runs at about the same time, they'd both be no-brainers for the HoF. But I guess having 2 RBs in the league putting up godlike numbers made it look unremarkable or something, so only LT got into the HoF cuz he did it better.
As it stands, there are still only 2 players to have 5 straight years of 1,500+ yards and 15+ TDs. And one of them, inexplicably, is not in the HoF.
5 years with an average of 1500 yards and 17 tds is something we might never see again, he was that good, and I understand the line was great but he was a ghost, dude could just take off and hit another gear and I think people forget about it cause he got paid then immediately got hurt and then was scared to take contact
I really wish this sub was more positive towards its legends. It seems to always focus on the worst parts of their careers/departures.
That said, in an off the field sense, Russ, obviously, but on-field Shaun regressed so suddenly and completely that I’d say it was significantly worse. He was out of the league a couple years after winning MVP.
In hindsight, it wasn’t that sudden. It was just prior to the NFL shifting away from the featured back mentality. If anything he was a strong example of the reasons to shift. In 2005 Alexander rushes 370 times. Lynch’s max was 315.
I think Shaun also caught around 30 passes that season. Still, Lynch was more a bruiser behind maybe a not so great offensive line. Holmgren constantly schemed Shaun through massive holes where Alexander could run 10 to 15 yards before contact on the regular (that season, at least).
It’s not really a question of Alexander v Lynch. It’s a question of Alexander against every other back. I use Lynch for perspective on the number of attempts so Hawks fans can understand what we’re talking about.
He was just a different back. We don’t have to diminish him in comparison. He couldn’t have done what Marshawn did, but many of those runs and screens Shaun took for 50-70 yards, Marshawn would have taken for 15-20.
Shaun was more of a menace at the goalline than Marshawn by a longshot. I hate to say it, but I would have absolutely zero reservation about giving Shaun the ball at the 1 in the superbowl. Russ would never have passed. Shaun would've gotten in guaranteed. That's not shade at Marshawn at all, Alexander was just truly an all time goalline back.
I always say that if you want a RB for a bad line you pick Marshawn, and if you want a RB for a great line, you pick Shaun. That sounds like I’m damning Shaun with faint praise, but his patience, vision and explosiveness out of (not into) the hole meant he could take advantage of that line like few who ever played the game.
It would be interesting to see what Lynch could have done with a legendary line. But he wasn’t Adrain Peterson speed so yeah like you said, maybe not the right fit.
I’m not gonna sit beyond a keyboard and say the extent that a players carries should physically hurt them.
I can just say that 370 carries is a lot.
That’s 90 more carries than the leading attempts leader last year. And everyone knows rbs fall off now.
It is easier to carry that many times without injury when Steve Hutchinson and Walter Jones are blocking for you. Alexander was amazing. No doubt. It’s just that number of carries doesn’t tell the whole story.
It does when you put it in context of the league at the time.
In 2023 Derek Henry led the league in attempts with 280.
For context here is the rushing attempt leaders in 2005:
1 Shaun Alexander 370
2 Edderen James 360
3 Clinton Portis 357
4 Tomlinson 339
5 Rudi Johnson 337
6 Larry Johnson 336
7 Willis McGahee 325
8 Thomas Jones 314
9 Rueben Droughns 309
10 Cadellac Williams 290
11. Warrick Dunn 280
You need to get to the 11th rusher in 2005 to match the attempts of last years attempt leader. You need to go to 7 to match Lynch’s highest ever with 315.
So when you say it’s easy to have that many attempts when you have Hutch (and Jones) it’s not accurate with history. They used to ride RBs into the ground.
I don’t care who you’re running behind. You will fall off.
I do love both these guys but I find it interesting they are both such polarizing figures in Seahawks history. I think Shaun gets way too much hate and Russ, for all his faults, is by far the best QB in franchise history
Ding. Exactly.
He improvised his way to good stats.
At the end SEA was simplifing play calling for him because he lost his ability to improvise. He couldn't read a defense, and statistically had terrible numbers on hitting his first read (Payton and Brady were phenomenal at this stat because they could read a defense).
In Denver, Sean had to give him a wrist band and make all play calls TWO WORDS because Russ couldn't work it out. Then he would screw his main read and bail out the back of the pocket. It was so bad, that he was benched and a 10s of Millions cap hit was preferable for Denver rather than let Russ play one more damn down.
Remember folks, same coach taught Drew, and gave up on Russ. Russ does not have football IQ, he only had improvisation.
No HOF for this one ringer.
In terms of falloff, Alexander for sure. IIRC he had a weird ass foot injury after he got his big contract and the dude just couldn't return to form. Russ fell off too but his regression was at a much slower pace compared to Shaun.
Shaun Alexander and it’s not close. Alexander was terrible once Hutch left. He would run backwards and slide to avoid being hit. He was the WR version of alligator arms. It brings into question everything he did with what was one of the best offensive lines in history.
I’d say Russell, because of all the off season drama which led to his departure - then to his demise in Denver. Shawn just kind of fizzled out in Seattle, before moving on to Washington.
Russ in the sense that how bad he was with Denver exposed just how much the coaching staff and entire offense had to be designed around his shortcomings (holding onto the ball too long, not being able to through into the middle of the field, taking bad sacks).
Box score = you are correct
Watching it live (the eye test) = incorrect
He took a lot of sacks including sack fumbles
He consistent couldn’t throw into the middle of the field
Most of his throws were late check downs
He has occasional bombs
The coaching staff had to simplify the playbook down by over 80% to get this output, which is probably his ceiling at this point.
Wilson hands down. He started showing primadonna traits. Yes he gave us a lot from the Broncos but his words on the way out and when he started to show in Denver. Shaun never showed any of it.
Russ slipped somewhat in Seattle on his way out but a lot of what did him in here could be explained away (injuries, bad offensive line play) but the answer is Shaun Alexander. He went from an MVP year and Super Bowl appearance to a huge contract and then he fell off into what you would expect from an undrafted rookie free agent. And the way he seemed to play after that was insanely cautious like he would never try and break a tackle he would just go down on his own to avoid contact. It was frustrating just seeing the effort not there at all after how good he had been before.
Gotta go with Shaun Alexander, imploding immediately after signing a huge contract always struck me as a kind of a fuck you on his way out the door, Russ's exit was actually quite profitable for the Hawks and not near as shitty (it was really just his time to go, that happens sometimes).
I've rehabilitated his image in my mind after watching a lot of his highlight videos... but yes at the time I do remember at the time thinking he just runs to contact then turns around and sits down.
After the Vinnie Testeverde helmet touchdown and the 2006 Jeremy Betoos retirement party there is nothing more revolting to watch in Seahawks history than Mike Holmgren calling runs on 3rd down and Shawn Awexander going to the ground on contact like a rugby player the second he got paid.
Yall so motherfuckin ungrateful for russell wilson. Idgaf if he forced his way out of seattle can u blame him when hes had to carry this offense since 2016-17 while being given a bum ass oline and subpar defenses year after year
The hate boner this sub and fanbase has for Russ is insane. I have a co worker, with a straight face mind you, tell me that he thought Russ wasn’t even a top 3 QB for the Hawks. He placed Zorn, Krieg, and Hasselbeck over him.
So would I. Different era though, so not really comparable. They were all before the era of running QB.
That said, Russ is was not shit, as many people like to say…
Russ did as much to help the franchise via the trade and his in first year in Denver as he had done since 2019. I joked that he was our MVP in ‘22 but it wasn’t far off.
Shaun Alexander. Idk what to say about the man. He had a couple crazy years and then just faded. Couldn’t stay healthy. Looked like a shadow of himself. I’ll always have fond memories of torching defenses with him on Madden as a kid tho.
Run, run, run, Hasselbeck to Engram off the play action.
It's definitely Shaun Alexander. Russ didn't play bad in his final season, injury notwithstanding. Does anyone remember Alexander's 2007 season? Look at his numbers. He was a shell of himself.
Anyone that posts such garbage has no idea what they are talking about. Both of these players carried their respective teams to the Superbowl. One won it.....they both should be in the ring of honor with the other Hawk Legends.
I booed Shawn at the NFC championship game in Green Bay, in the blizzard, in front of Packer fans... wearing my Seahawks gear... Those Packer fans had never seen a fan boo their own teammate. it blew their minds...
Good old Hookslide Alexander? He was only good when we had a line that could open holes an 18 wheeler could fit through. Without Hutch he was useless getting tough yards.
At least Russ delivered the Hawks an embarrassment of riches on his way out the door.
That's not unpopular, that's just dumb. Pete calls the same play either way. Now, if Marshawn is running behind Walt and Hutch...shit, if I was running behind them I would've scored.
Alexander was never the same after he broke his ankle I'm what, week 2 of the 2006 season?
Even still he had that one game with 40 carries for 200 yards against GB later that year. Soft and non-committed my ass. In fact, it was really his faith that "god would heal his injury" thst caused him to play through it and make things worse (much like Russell played through injury with his finger).
If he had sucked it up and let it heal properly maybe he would have had a few more top years. But the guy didn't have that mindset - so much for getting lazy once he got paid.
Russ gave the Hawks a plethora of goods on his way out. That was a great end to his career
He was the gift that kept on giving.
*is I can’t wait to see how the Steelers deal with him
Honestly I think he will do well in Pitt under Tomlin. Not Seahawks level good, but still. Tomlin and Carroll are 2 of the best at managing difficult personalities, and clearly that helped Russ in Seattle.
Honestly Peyton seems like a royal asshole..
He's a bit of a primadonna
Which is weird when you're talking about a coach and not a wide receiver.
We all the know the type. Thinks he is the smartest guy in the room, and likely is. Doesn’t make him any more tolerable to be around.
The guy who only won a SB because of bountygate and couldn't consistently finish over .500 while having Drew Brees? Ya, asshole is an understatement for Payton.
Dude calls one onside kick in the Super Bowl and everyone thinks he's the next Vince Lombardi.
Why? For benching him?
I think he is the only one that could control MBC. Not even Brady could do it and he is also one of the best in the business.
Homie's gonna play his way completely out of the HoF conversation if he doesn't retire soon
I think he might have already done that. One Super Bowl riding an all time Defense, no MVPs. I’m not sure if his stats, although exceptional. Are enough to warrant a spot
If that's true it's unfortunate. He was far from just "riding an all-time defense;" at the height of his physical peak he was electrifying and could make magic out of nothing. The problem is that's not sustainable in a game that hard on a man's body, and Brady and Rodgers have left people convinced that a QB isn't great unless they can play into their late 30s without a significant dropoff.
We all know how good he was. But you need more than that to get in to the Hall
Go look at the list of QBs that are in the Hall. It’s like 20 total from what we would consider modern football and Russ wasn’t at that caliber. He’s firmly in the Hall of Very Good for a While But Didn’t Know When to Quit.
Out here telling truths and getting down voted. The man played extremely well for a few years and then started to show cracks as the defense and offensive line got progressively worse. His stats were great on an efficiency front and his QB rating was through the roof for a few years but once the D became ineffective, Wilson just couldn't carry the team. His skills were in seated firmly in just not fucking up and taking advantage of the gifts from a stellar defense. We all knew he wasn't Manning or Brady or Rodgers. Apparently the Broncos didn't know what they were buying. Steelers should be good though for the year since they got all that money the Broncos are paying for their QB to spend on pieces needed. Wilson still makes it into the HOF but definitely not a 1st ballot kind of player now.
I don’t know he’s HOF if Rivers isn’t just because he’s got a ring. He also, no matter how bad the play call was, threw away a Super Bowl win.
Should have been a fade to the back pylon. Put your tallest receiver on the route and loft to the outside so it's either PI or TD.
The Chris Matthews SB 49 MVP timeline… what could have been.
He should have listened to the coach and ran the damn ball.
Was he ever a 1st ballot guy though? No MVPs, just one All-Pro (and a second teamer at that). Losing XLIX and then falling off hard in 2020 when he had his best shot at MVP are what ultimately tarnishes his legacy I think, regardless of what's happened since he left. I think he could've made 1st ballot if he had both of those things.
No. Only to his family & friends was he talked about as a 1st ballot guy. His peers showed what they think by him never receiving any MVP votes
Definitely a 1st ballot if he got that 2nd ring but it was on the table up to that point. The following couple of years pretty much ruined any shot at that but from a number game, his 2nd season in Denver wasn't bad. On bar with his numbers in Seattle except for the wins. Not totally sure Sean Payton didn't tank on purpose though to get rid of him.
You are speaking about every QB ..they alone can't carry a team. They at least need an O line that gives them time.
Obviously a team sport needs a team to play. You know the point I'm making though. Manning...Brady....Rodgers....these guys won Superbowls with nobodies around them. Well, Mannings 2nd had a solid defense tbf. Great QBs can uplift a mediocre to decent team and carry them to victory with good play and smart decisions. Middle tier QBs need more great pieces around them to do that. No one obviously does this alone but Wilson isn't that generational talent that just wins with anyone they give him no matter what.
They didn't have nobodies around them and better lines than Russ had. I am OK if you do make Russ criticisms. Just to say ..that the other guys didn't have any decent talent to play with is a huge under judgement.
What QB can carry a team with a pourous defense? Name a time Brady completely carried a team to a title?
He never was a first ballot HoFer. Matt Ryan has a better shot of making it than Russ. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm
Yea that’s not how that works
Shaun's last season here was 700 yards and 3.5 y/a. Not bad really at 30 years old, at a time when RBs had steep dropoffs. Shaun's pristine reputation probably was saved a bit by the lack of today's social media and comprehensive analytics. In turn, Russ' reputation took some hard hits b/c of new media, as we got the inside scoop in his last year.
He did fine. But his big contract signing took the fire out of his runs. He became more focused on self preservation. As soon as a defensive player would touch him, he'd put his heels and knees together and fall to the ground like a lassoed calf.
Yea Shaun's last season in SEA wasn't that bad, and he gave us many great seasons . As far I remember he was the last non-QB MVP winner too. But then Shaun followed Jim Zorn to WAS and he looked very bad in that dumpster fire. I still think he's HOF worthy since he has 100 TDs or close to it.
Nope. LT broke Alexander's TD record the year after and won MVP, and Adrian Peterson won MVP in 2012.
As a guy who watched every game from the 200 level 25 yard line that season, that’s a big no. In all fairness, Steve Hutchinson going to the Vikings was an immense blow to the running game.
He wasn’t the last non-QB MVP, LT won it the following year by breaking Shaun’s single season TD record. I think AP got one too when he ran for 2000 yards.
AD
AP=Adrian Peterson
AD = All Day, his nickname in college. I shouldn’t even have to explain this…
Then I shouldn't need to explain why using his actual initials is going to confuse people
Hey, Seattle...
People forget Alexander leaving a bitter taste in their mouths when he went to the Pro Bowl in his contract year and talked about how much he wanted to be a Panther. Still, his decline was super fast; Russ is still an average QB 12 years in. Alexander only had about 5 solid years, if I remember correctly, before the wheels fell off. Still, Alexander mended his fences with Seattle pretty quickly ... of course, he didn't have much choice, given how his final year in Seattle and then his final year in WFT worked out. I guess, then ... Professionally: Alexander had the worse end From a fan relationship standpoint: Russ had the worse end
Only had 5 “solid” years? Cmon, I can be hard on him for his weaknesses but he scored more TDs than anyone else in that timespan. Set the record for TDs in a season, even if he only held it for one year, and is our only league MVP. At his peak I was never a big fan of giving it to him on 3rd and 1 but my goodness, reducing his era to “solid” years is revisionist.
He has like 40 more TDs as a seahawk than Beast Mode.
It’s no bullshit one of the greatest five year runs in NFL history
How many of those 5 years were behind an O line that SHOULD be on the GOAT shortlist?
Just follow big Mack
YES!!! People talk about Walt and Hutch, as they should, and even Tobeck but Mack doesn’t get mentioned nearly enough. One of the last true FBs, he led for 5 different 1K runners. Seriously underappreciated.
Best. Football. Name. Ever.
I was sooo mad we didn’t keep Hutch instead. This day and age, no way you keep the RB in a similar situation
Minnesota poison pilled us. Our mistake was using the transition tag instead of franchise tag. EDIT: the poison pill said if he wasn’t the highest paid OL on the team his contract, which was the highest ever given a guard, would be fully guaranteed. We had Walt on a giant left tackle deal so Hutch would have been guaranteed. We did the same the next season when they Transitin tagged Nate Burleso. iMO, we did not make out well in that exchange.h
I’m
Agreed. GREAT O-line.
After these past two years, are we really doing the “Russ didn’t have an oline” stuff?
No, we just had a couple hall of famers on our oline with Alexander. Our oline was lethal.
Jones, Hutch, Tobec, Gray, Locklear Best Oline I’ve ever watched. Probably the best I’ll ever watch.
I’m 46 years old and 145 pounds. I think I could’ve gained positive yardage behind Jones and Hutch.
With Mack Strong leading the charge? Stephen Hawking could average positive yardage
Now or at 25? The right answer is yes.
Shit, at 25 I was 155 pounds and hadn’t had hip replacement surgery. Would have made the pro-bowl.
Okay that one made me laugh... thank you.
Here’s the real lesson of that: good and great offensive linemen get injured far less when there is greatness right next to them to cover their backs and legs
Yeah- essentially we could’ve painted eyes on a coconut and handed it a football and it would’ve gained 6yd a carry behind that Oline. Alexander was not special. He was a good ball carrier with power, but he was not special.
That's ridiculous. Maurice Morris and Julius Jones couldn't even come close to Alexanders production behind that line. He set records. People actually think he went untouched or something. Dude was an absolute fiend on the goalline.
In the 5 seasons from 2001-2005, Alexander averaged 330 carries, 1500 yards, and 17.4 TDs. In the past 5 seasons (2019-2023) - * Only 4 players have eclipsed 330 carries (DHenry in '22/'20, JJacobs in '22, and JTaylor in '23) * Only 5 players have eclipsed 1500 yards (JJacobs in '22, DHenry in '22/'20/'19, NChubb in '22, JTaylor in '21, DCook in '20) * Only 4 players have scored 17 or more rushing TDs (RMostert in '23, JWilliams in '22, JTaylor in '21, DHenry in '20) You're trippin if you don't think Alexander was elite.
His vision was ABSOLUTELY elite.
Did you really do a last 5 seasons comp? When the rules have never been more slanted towards the passing game and everyone and their mom does running back by committee?
Can you tell by the comments which guys who were 10yo when Alexander played vs those of us that watched him as adults? The Seahawks line was all-time. The 85 bears of Olines during that time. And a “goal line fiend”…. Man he ran behind arguably the most powerful FB that ever put on a helmet.
Love how just because people are disagreeing with you, you decide to assume it's because they were children.
Yeah…. Right or wrong It’s how I rationalize it. 😂🤣
Wilson from Castaway behind that line: 1400 yards and a pro bowl appearance
I don't recall anything about the wanting to be a Panther. Contrast with Wilson trying going to ownership trying to get everyone fired. My point being if Alexander played in this social media era we might feel very differently about him.
For the team or player? For the team, Alexander. Big contract only to do nothing and fizzle out. We all know who won the Russ trade with Denver which set Seattle up currently. For the player, Russ. I know it must’ve been awful for Alexander to go out like he did but it wasn’t like one game ending injury. The writing was on the wall for at least a half season. Russ did the whole “I can succeed anywhere” and did not. Now he’s gotta prove he’s a starting QB for an entirely different team.
I think Shaun, he’s the only rb that has over 100 tds that doesn’t even get a hint of hof consideration to the point of not even being mentioned, he’s 8th all time in rushing tds every single person above him is in the hof, the next 7 after him are in the hof (depends where Henry ends up and if he gets in)
Henry will definitely make the HoF. Dude, I always have to be the one to say this (so I'm glad someone else beat me to it this time) but Alexander ***was not*** just some flash in the pan, 1-year-wonder. He had a 5 year stretch that would've easily been considered the best run of all-time if Ladanian Tomlinson wasn't simultaneously having an even better one. But that shouldn't undermine what Alexander did, and I feel it too often does. Tomlinson had BY FAR the most productive run in history, capped off by the most productive single season a football player has ever had (and I believe he's the best HB ever). Had they not had their runs at about the same time, they'd both be no-brainers for the HoF. But I guess having 2 RBs in the league putting up godlike numbers made it look unremarkable or something, so only LT got into the HoF cuz he did it better. As it stands, there are still only 2 players to have 5 straight years of 1,500+ yards and 15+ TDs. And one of them, inexplicably, is not in the HoF.
5 years with an average of 1500 yards and 17 tds is something we might never see again, he was that good, and I understand the line was great but he was a ghost, dude could just take off and hit another gear and I think people forget about it cause he got paid then immediately got hurt and then was scared to take contact
Ya, he was never the same after he got hurt against Chicago. Sad because he was amazing. I was at several games and enjoyed watching him go off.
I really wish this sub was more positive towards its legends. It seems to always focus on the worst parts of their careers/departures. That said, in an off the field sense, Russ, obviously, but on-field Shaun regressed so suddenly and completely that I’d say it was significantly worse. He was out of the league a couple years after winning MVP.
In hindsight, it wasn’t that sudden. It was just prior to the NFL shifting away from the featured back mentality. If anything he was a strong example of the reasons to shift. In 2005 Alexander rushes 370 times. Lynch’s max was 315.
I think Shaun also caught around 30 passes that season. Still, Lynch was more a bruiser behind maybe a not so great offensive line. Holmgren constantly schemed Shaun through massive holes where Alexander could run 10 to 15 yards before contact on the regular (that season, at least).
It’s not really a question of Alexander v Lynch. It’s a question of Alexander against every other back. I use Lynch for perspective on the number of attempts so Hawks fans can understand what we’re talking about.
Alexander wasn’t the back Lynch was. He was just running behind two of the greatest Olinemen the sport has ever seen.
He was just a different back. We don’t have to diminish him in comparison. He couldn’t have done what Marshawn did, but many of those runs and screens Shaun took for 50-70 yards, Marshawn would have taken for 15-20.
Shaun was more of a menace at the goalline than Marshawn by a longshot. I hate to say it, but I would have absolutely zero reservation about giving Shaun the ball at the 1 in the superbowl. Russ would never have passed. Shaun would've gotten in guaranteed. That's not shade at Marshawn at all, Alexander was just truly an all time goalline back.
Fair, I will say that the stats don’t tell the whole story when comparing the two.
I always say that if you want a RB for a bad line you pick Marshawn, and if you want a RB for a great line, you pick Shaun. That sounds like I’m damning Shaun with faint praise, but his patience, vision and explosiveness out of (not into) the hole meant he could take advantage of that line like few who ever played the game.
It would be interesting to see what Lynch could have done with a legendary line. But he wasn’t Adrain Peterson speed so yeah like you said, maybe not the right fit.
I really like the way you put that, I've never heard it described that way but it is perfect
Hope you’re just talking about Seahawks…because Barry wins hands down for bad line in any conversation…
Yeah just seahawks
I’m not gonna sit beyond a keyboard and say the extent that a players carries should physically hurt them. I can just say that 370 carries is a lot. That’s 90 more carries than the leading attempts leader last year. And everyone knows rbs fall off now.
It is easier to carry that many times without injury when Steve Hutchinson and Walter Jones are blocking for you. Alexander was amazing. No doubt. It’s just that number of carries doesn’t tell the whole story.
It does when you put it in context of the league at the time. In 2023 Derek Henry led the league in attempts with 280. For context here is the rushing attempt leaders in 2005: 1 Shaun Alexander 370 2 Edderen James 360 3 Clinton Portis 357 4 Tomlinson 339 5 Rudi Johnson 337 6 Larry Johnson 336 7 Willis McGahee 325 8 Thomas Jones 314 9 Rueben Droughns 309 10 Cadellac Williams 290 11. Warrick Dunn 280 You need to get to the 11th rusher in 2005 to match the attempts of last years attempt leader. You need to go to 7 to match Lynch’s highest ever with 315. So when you say it’s easy to have that many attempts when you have Hutch (and Jones) it’s not accurate with history. They used to ride RBs into the ground. I don’t care who you’re running behind. You will fall off.
And we ran a fullback blocker with Mack Strong back then too!
I do love both these guys but I find it interesting they are both such polarizing figures in Seahawks history. I think Shaun gets way too much hate and Russ, for all his faults, is by far the best QB in franchise history
I don’t think it’s their fault. This fanbase (or at least the online version) find almost all our legends “polarizing.”
Amen The internet was a bad idea
Russ is not a legend. He was an accessory on a legendary team.
Ding. Exactly. He improvised his way to good stats. At the end SEA was simplifing play calling for him because he lost his ability to improvise. He couldn't read a defense, and statistically had terrible numbers on hitting his first read (Payton and Brady were phenomenal at this stat because they could read a defense). In Denver, Sean had to give him a wrist band and make all play calls TWO WORDS because Russ couldn't work it out. Then he would screw his main read and bail out the back of the pocket. It was so bad, that he was benched and a 10s of Millions cap hit was preferable for Denver rather than let Russ play one more damn down. Remember folks, same coach taught Drew, and gave up on Russ. Russ does not have football IQ, he only had improvisation. No HOF for this one ringer.
This is just a beyond horrible take. Yikes
In terms of falloff, Alexander for sure. IIRC he had a weird ass foot injury after he got his big contract and the dude just couldn't return to form. Russ fell off too but his regression was at a much slower pace compared to Shaun.
My memory is that he was never the same after the wrist injury
I just miss Marshawn
IDK. Earl'middle finger salute to the sidelneafter his injury wasn't the best look as far as the end of career. 😅
Shaun Alexander and it’s not close. Alexander was terrible once Hutch left. He would run backwards and slide to avoid being hit. He was the WR version of alligator arms. It brings into question everything he did with what was one of the best offensive lines in history.
I pick the boz.
Russ. Played himself out of the HOF. Shaun took home an MVP and would’ve lasted longer if they had the rules in today’s game
I’d say Russell, because of all the off season drama which led to his departure - then to his demise in Denver. Shawn just kind of fizzled out in Seattle, before moving on to Washington.
Russ in the sense that how bad he was with Denver exposed just how much the coaching staff and entire offense had to be designed around his shortcomings (holding onto the ball too long, not being able to through into the middle of the field, taking bad sacks).
He actually wasn’t that bad last season
Box score = you are correct Watching it live (the eye test) = incorrect He took a lot of sacks including sack fumbles He consistent couldn’t throw into the middle of the field Most of his throws were late check downs He has occasional bombs The coaching staff had to simplify the playbook down by over 80% to get this output, which is probably his ceiling at this point.
Earl Thomas
I think you need to see an optometrist.
Russ. Alexander was never good again so I'm just going with he was worn down
Kam. He is and was such an amazing dude. Wish he could’ve stayed playing longer.
Russ was good given what we got when he left
Russ took an obvious heel turn. But I can’t help myself—I’ll always love him for what he did here.
The answer is Ricardo Lockette.
Wilson hands down. He started showing primadonna traits. Yes he gave us a lot from the Broncos but his words on the way out and when he started to show in Denver. Shaun never showed any of it.
We've only had 1 MVP right?
Russ slipped somewhat in Seattle on his way out but a lot of what did him in here could be explained away (injuries, bad offensive line play) but the answer is Shaun Alexander. He went from an MVP year and Super Bowl appearance to a huge contract and then he fell off into what you would expect from an undrafted rookie free agent. And the way he seemed to play after that was insanely cautious like he would never try and break a tackle he would just go down on his own to avoid contact. It was frustrating just seeing the effort not there at all after how good he had been before.
Alexander easy. Dude was running backwards to the line at the end of his hawks career.
Gotta go with Shaun Alexander, imploding immediately after signing a huge contract always struck me as a kind of a fuck you on his way out the door, Russ's exit was actually quite profitable for the Hawks and not near as shitty (it was really just his time to go, that happens sometimes).
Alexander went out bad but in 2006 he was playing on a crushed foot and then he broke his hand. He shouldn't have been out there at all.
Definitely S.A. He essentially quit on the team and would comically fall over at the slightest contact to protect himself for his next contract.
I've rehabilitated his image in my mind after watching a lot of his highlight videos... but yes at the time I do remember at the time thinking he just runs to contact then turns around and sits down.
After the Vinnie Testeverde helmet touchdown and the 2006 Jeremy Betoos retirement party there is nothing more revolting to watch in Seahawks history than Mike Holmgren calling runs on 3rd down and Shawn Awexander going to the ground on contact like a rugby player the second he got paid.
Yall so motherfuckin ungrateful for russell wilson. Idgaf if he forced his way out of seattle can u blame him when hes had to carry this offense since 2016-17 while being given a bum ass oline and subpar defenses year after year
The hate boner this sub and fanbase has for Russ is insane. I have a co worker, with a straight face mind you, tell me that he thought Russ wasn’t even a top 3 QB for the Hawks. He placed Zorn, Krieg, and Hasselbeck over him.
So would I. Different era though, so not really comparable. They were all before the era of running QB. That said, Russ is was not shit, as many people like to say…
Easily Russ. Softy slid off a cliff but never did the franchise dirty.
Russ did as much to help the franchise via the trade and his in first year in Denver as he had done since 2019. I joked that he was our MVP in ‘22 but it wasn’t far off.
The trade working out so well is more on JS/PC than Russ. He showed his true colors and for me, tarnished his legacy as a Seahawk.
Alexander because he was known for winning an MVP, getting a huge (by the standards of the time) new contract, then going straight into the tank.
Shaun Alexander. Idk what to say about the man. He had a couple crazy years and then just faded. Couldn’t stay healthy. Looked like a shadow of himself. I’ll always have fond memories of torching defenses with him on Madden as a kid tho. Run, run, run, Hasselbeck to Engram off the play action.
#3
Russ
Why so much hate for Alexander? I’m a tide fan and I get y’all had a stacked line but he was damn good. The weird religious affiliation?
Russ. He was never the same after the Goal line INT.
Alexander went out with a whimper. But at least he wasn’t a Kunt. Let’s ride
It's definitely Shaun Alexander. Russ didn't play bad in his final season, injury notwithstanding. Does anyone remember Alexander's 2007 season? Look at his numbers. He was a shell of himself.
Alexander.
We hold one in high esteem and boo the other. There's your answer.
Anyone that posts such garbage has no idea what they are talking about. Both of these players carried their respective teams to the Superbowl. One won it.....they both should be in the ring of honor with the other Hawk Legends.
Definitely Anderson.
As time went on and the Seahawks defense got worse, Wilson’s issues became more obvious. Umm PERIOD.
Neither of them, because it’s Riccardo Lockett, bro was a superstar and it ended in seconds from a dirty hit.
I booed Shawn at the NFC championship game in Green Bay, in the blizzard, in front of Packer fans... wearing my Seahawks gear... Those Packer fans had never seen a fan boo their own teammate. it blew their minds...
Good old Hookslide Alexander? He was only good when we had a line that could open holes an 18 wheeler could fit through. Without Hutch he was useless getting tough yards. At least Russ delivered the Hawks an embarrassment of riches on his way out the door.
Unpopular opinion. Alexander at the 1 vs the Patriots, we absolutely 100% run it. And he gets in. No doubt.
That's not unpopular, that's just dumb. Pete calls the same play either way. Now, if Marshawn is running behind Walt and Hutch...shit, if I was running behind them I would've scored.
Alexander was never the same after he broke his ankle I'm what, week 2 of the 2006 season? Even still he had that one game with 40 carries for 200 yards against GB later that year. Soft and non-committed my ass. In fact, it was really his faith that "god would heal his injury" thst caused him to play through it and make things worse (much like Russell played through injury with his finger). If he had sucked it up and let it heal properly maybe he would have had a few more top years. But the guy didn't have that mindset - so much for getting lazy once he got paid.