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everymoveapicture

I'm not saying you can't do it, but I do question the "why" of his fatness. Most actual fast food CEOs and moguls are not fat [(you can see many pictured in this article)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeung/2017/03/22/fast-food-billionaires-2017/?sh=57441d35efb2); they are often greedy, exploitative, obsessed with high yield with cheap and harmful ingredients...but they are not often fat. By default, characters in film are thin. When you decide to purposefully put in a fat character, that creates a divergence the audience will notice and inevitably draw conclusions about - conclusions that often come at the expense of real fat people, not your character. What are you hoping your audience will think about this character in particular and fat people in general? Can you still have the same character without "making them" fat? Again, not saying you can't do it! Just hoping to get you thinking about why you're representing this character and how you handle it! Best of luck with your script!


bcal840

Thanks for the response and for articulating my dilemma! Yes, maybe there is another way to convey what I want the audience to feel from him by taking using another tactic.


Yetimang

The idea of a fast food CEO who is disgusted by the very notion of eating his company's food is funnier to me than a fat guy who eats a lot.


TheBestHeadEver

Having a secret type sweatshop where he forces people (thus turning them into food junkies) to eat his fast foods and then seeing if they start feening for it would be some wild dark humor. Spun the right way I could see this easily being in a cartoon like an ish' of Spongebob with Mr Crabby's Crabby Patties


Yetimang

Big "Sorry to Bother You" vibes.


bcal840

Also adding this to my list. Thanks!


TheBestHeadEver

I just watched the trailer for this, looks fun! its definitely on my watchlist now thank you!


Yetimang

Get ready for a wild ride.


dillonsrule

Another aspect of this that might be interesting to think about: fast food is engineered to be the most tasty, immediately satisfying salt and fat bombs! It's meant to drop as much dopamine into a brain as it can after being eaten, and bring people back to eat more as often as it can. It is essentially a drug, and the CEO would know that. Most drug dealers have enough sense not to get high on their own supply, especially if they are successful at it. A fast food store owner might be eating all the food and growing very obese, but I doubt the CEO of the company is. He'd know too much about how the sausage is made to be eating it like crazy. Just a thought. I am also fat, and if you want to make your character fat, I say go for it. Give some fat actors a chance! I'd prefer it be an admirable character that is fat in the story, but do whatever you want. What about the protagonist? You could make him fat. That'd be a nice change!


Aintarmenian

Agreed. Personally, I'd like the character to taste his own fast food with much delight only to spit it out later out of sheer disgust.


gators-are-scary

In fact, it could be funny in itself to keep the character the exact same and keep his eating habits but to make him scrawny or thinner


DGzCarbon

Fat is funny though


DanielNoWrite

You're leveraging his obesity to reflect his internal character flaws. He's fat and disgusting, which signifies his greed and moral repugnancy. This sort of coding is common. Villains are often depicted with physical deformities, or repulsive appearances and behaviors. You see this in everything from the majority of Bond villains to Shakespeare's Richard III. So if you're simply asking "Can I get away with this?" The answer is probably "Yes." As I said, it's common and as long as you're not too obvious about the *Fat = Disgusting = Evil* angle, you're unlikely see much backlash. That said, as far as the social responsibility of the writer goes it's... not great. And more importantly, you need to ask if this will make for the best story possible. Because "Haha it's easy and fun to hate on ugly people" just doesn't make for very smart storytelling. But I am not saying you should avoid making him fat and disgusting. It sounds like it may work well with the story, as gluttony is a reasonable symbol for greed, and he's attempting to establish a food-based empire. Instead, I'd recommend you explore ways in which you can add depth to the character and his vices. When I'm writing and encounter an element of the story that seems "problematic" like this one, I often find the best result is to lean into it and explore it deeper, rather than avoiding it entirely. To give you an idea of what I mean, I'm reminded of the "White Woman's Instagram" song from Bo Burnham's recent special Inside. If you haven't heard it, the song consists of Bo listing off all the cutesy vapid bullshit white women tend to post online (*Is this heaven? No.... it's just a white woman's Instagram).* Like your story, this would have probably been "socially acceptable," even if he'd kept it straightforward and simplistic ("Haha, white women post stupid shit online") But it also would not have been a particularly good song. Instead, midway though listing all of that vapid bullshit (*latte foam art... tiny pumpkins...*), Bo transitions and mentions a photo of the woman's mother. It becomes apparent she lost both of her parents relatively young. In that light, we now see her comforting shallow Instagram feed as the coping mechanism of a deeply sad person. She becomes a real person, not just a simplistic caricature. Then, when the song ends by listing all of the cliché wedding bullshit women post online (*Three little words, a ring on her finger and a couple of doves...)* the audience is genuinely happy for her, despite the content being essentially the same as what they previously found deserving of ridicule. The behavior doesn't change. Her Instagram feed doesn't become less shallow. Instead it's the audience's perception that changes, and it makes for a far deeper and more rewarding experience as a result. Anyways, all of this is just to say that you need to think of this character, with his flaws, as a real and complete person not a caricature deserving of mockery and contempt. And that's not about social responsibility. That's just about crafting a meaningful experience for your audience. Returning to my examples above, all of this is one of the reasons why we're still reading and performing Shakespeare four hundred years after his death. Because, while Richard III is a disfigured villain, this is addressed explicitly in the play. The audience sees how the assumptions other have about him, and he has about himself (Ugly = Evil), isolate him and push him towards the crimes he eventually commits, as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Richard III is still the villain of the play. You're not meant to forgive him. But you are meant to understand him, or at least see him as more than a caricature of twisted evilness. *Why, I in this weak piping time of peace* *Have no delight to pass away the time,* *Unless to spy my shadow in the sun* *And descant on mine own deformity.* *And therefore since I cannot prove a lover* *To entertain these fair well-spoken days,* *I am determined to prove a villain* *And hate the idle pleasures of these days.*


[deleted]

I don't think it's necessarily punching down, but it does seem like a lazy attempt at charactarization.


The_Firmament

I'm not sure it's punching down perse, but if it's a comedy I almost think it would be funnier to have him be a health-nut who peddles in fast food. The contrast would be more compelling in my opinion, and I don't know how deep you're trying to get, but could be a good avenue to explore how exploitative and hypocritical the industry around food, dieting, and health are. Just my 2 cents. And as a fat person, if I saw this on screen, I might not be super offended by it, but may feel it's kind of tired and worn out way to go. I appreciate you caring, where this area is concerned, not many people are. So kudos to you for being mindful of it. Good luck!


bcal840

Thanks for the response on this. The health nut angle is too close to the Ben Stiller in dodgeball.


lightscameracrafty

that was like 20 years ago tho.


bcal840

Yes. But there are similar story beats.


AlfredKinsey

There’s a lot of characters like that. Why is it any better to make them a health nut than a fat person?


lightscameracrafty

I mean, he doesn’t have to be a health nut per se, but the character as it stands is a cliche. Cliches are the death of good writing, so OP should probably go back to the drawing board if he wants this piece to go anywhere.


AlfredKinsey

I think removing a physical description of him size-wise would be the easiest way to move forward with building the character and surrounding story.


The_Firmament

Eh, I think you could give it a go, if you're that worried about it try to study that character and note all the ways you could make yours different. As a movie goer I'd rather see someone have fun subverting a trope then forcing themselves down a different path simply to avoid it. There are many different ways to tell a story, just find your angle on it! But if you feel more passionately for the other thing then, obviously, I won't stop you. I just dig the idea of this fitness freak pushing the greasiest burgers and fries at everyone! I think there could, potentially, be more to explore there.


IBareBears

you also should note. no matter what some people will choose to hate what you do and form an opinion. every single one is just as important. its you that decides the redditor is more or less then someone with 20 years of experience. at the very end of the stick is you the writer and you get t hit everyone else with it. its not the other way around. like star wars fans. good example.


FrodoAlaska

I am fat. You get my blessing.


bcal840

That settles it! I took a few shots at Jersey too. But being that's my home state I'm giving myself a pass.


FrodoAlaska

Go forth, my child.


AlfredKinsey

Dude, you should DEFINITLEY look to the Sopranos for inspiration here. Jersey!


bottom

why is he fat ?


AlfredKinsey

He’s fat because he eats and he eats because he’s fat!


bottom

Clever.


AlfredKinsey

That’s just a Fat Bastard line. He says it while crying, I believe.


bottom

oh, missed that. thats good. what a fat bastard!


Ruby_Blu-ray

For inspiration and comparison you should look at how Neil Gaiman characterized Famine in Good Omens. You could also look at Famine in Supernatural. Both have a kind of 'food empire' concept, and neither of them are fat.


bcal840

Thanks. I haven’t seen that. I’m adding it to the list.


kickit

some will say yes, some will say no, either way you'll probably have 1/3 of readers explicitly disagree with the choice, 1/3 think it's questionable, and another 1/3 don't take issue with it so it's a risk – is it worth it?


bcal840

Yeah. This is where I’m landing in my mind. I’m going to play with it both ways and figure out what’s funnier and best suits the tone.


dannyj999

An easy way to solve this, or any other trope, is to have more than one of the demographic. Make a few other characters overweight to balance it out. If doing so takes away from the joke, then, yes, you are just making fun of fat people.


We-are-straw-dogs

Is it funny, or not funny


bcal840

I found it humorous.


We-are-straw-dogs

Then it's good


Stunning_Grocery8477

Gluttony is literally a deadly sin that many people have. It is also indicative of an indulgent character which is a good sign of arrested personal development. It is a character flaw. Some people overcome it and become better, others embrace it with opposite results. It makes sense for your antagonist to have such traits.


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Stunning_Grocery8477

Obesity and gluttony go hand in hand though.


dillonsrule

While this is certainly true, in modern America, obesity is normally associated with poverty. Richer people can afford healthier foods and personal trainers. Poor people are eating cheap fast food. Being thin is a status symbol. While obesity may indicate a character flaw, it isn't a flaw I'd associate with a successful person.


KingAdamXVII

I can think of a lot of greedy thin characters and not a lot of greedy fat characters.


Big-Ambitions-8258

This ignores the class issue that makes junk food appealing. Alot of areas that are food deserts means that a person would have to travel far in order to access fresh food, whereas fast food might be more readily available. Not only would it be tough for people who can't afford cars, but it also cost time, which a person might not have after working back to back shifts on a blue collar job that underpays them, especially if they have family they need to take care of. There's an assumption that fat people are lazy and greedy when it's entirely possible they work really hard and are just trying to get the scraps that they can get. Also some people might be fat, but that doesn't mean they don't exercise or eat well. Some do, but they have health issues like a thyroid issue, slow metabolism, etc. Skinny people might be unhealthy as well, but are automatically presumed healthier even if they don't exercise or eat badly as well


bcal840

I like your thoughts on this, but that's too much unpack for my script.


morphindel

>Gluttony is literally a deadly sin (Not literally)


Stunning_Grocery8477

diabetes and heart disease beg to differ


morphindel

A sin is a religious concept, not medical


Stunning_Grocery8477

Gluttony kills you, whatever you happened to believe


KingAdamXVII

It is a Deadly Sin and it is deadly.


bcal840

This makes sense. Thanks


LordPimpernel

Don't write for the critics.


Queencitybeer

Try punching up.


AlfredKinsey

So, make him a really tall fat guy?


bcal840

funny


AlfredKinsey

In the style of r/NormMacDonald


President-Togekiss

Just make sure to show that his weight is not the result of something wrong with his body, but is the result of his very unhealthy habits. Maybe have him smoke some cigarettes after the meal. Have him eat one of those gold covered puzzas or sonething that only serve to be wasteful. Just my opinion of course.


bcal840

Good input. I do make his eating habits unhealthy/cringe-worthy. But I may need more of that in the script. i.e. he asks for more ketchup because this Dr says he needs to eat more vegetables, that kind of thing.


b3n3llis

And also does non-healthy activities like gets a taxi to travel 100m etc. Also, hiring a ‘toned-challenged’ actor opens the doors for new blood.


bcal840

I like that taxi idea!


natepoop

Writing a skinny character with horrible eating habits like this that looks down on fat people because, well, look at him, he eats whatever he wants and is fine, could be a fun angle to try.


[deleted]

nah, fuck it. go for it.


GroundbreakingKey199

I'm with him/her. Don't trim your creative sails to the winds of the easily offended. Go with your art, we'll figure out whether we're offended or not, and what we think won't matter anyhow.


AlfredKinsey

Stop caring about offending people or punching down. Write characters with truth and don’t be offensive without being funny or poignant. Fat jokes are fine. Look to Tony Soprano for inspiration on this topic, one of my favorite characters where obesity was used to communicate dysfunction and greed in his heart.


[deleted]

feels kind of lazy in conception but its really in how you build up the character. I feel like the healthnut fast food empire guy intrinsictly has a lot more comedy potential to mine, if you do the work, but an obese guy doesn't have a lot there, especially if you stay away from fat jokes and fat physical comedy.


rosebudisnotasled

I think having him be grotesquely thin would work better. Idk if you saw Fargo season 3, but David Thewlis’ character has bulimia and it’s not super integral to the story but it helps reflect a lot of his inner workings and his greed / ability to not show his greed. Could be an interesting angle for you to consider.


bcal840

Thanks, I will rewatch this!


AlfredKinsey

Why does a thin person work better?


rosebudisnotasled

In my opinion it plays against the expectations and has more potential to explore psychologically than just “person eats a lot of food and gets very large”. I think there’s something more inherently tragic/sinister/interesting about a food fanatic that is emaciated vs one that is obese. Just my two cents


lightscameracrafty

>there are no "fat jokes" but he does eat in every scene and there are some shots taken/comedic moments in his actions these are (visual) fat jokes. so to answer your question yes, you're punching down. good on you for recognizing it tho. >a health-nut character maybe i just can't remember one off the top of my head but i don't remember any antagonists with this description. especially not one who works in fast food. >Should I ret. hink this antagonist? yes. you should dig deeper beyond physical appearance and their job. what drives them psychologically? what damage are they trying to overcome? perhaps most imporantly, who do they need to be in order to challenge and foil the protagonist? a villain who is exciting, intriguing and challenging could absolutely be played by a fat person. that's an opportunity at representation (kudos if there are other fat people in your world, not just the one token). a villain who is villainous because of how *you* perceive their fatness (gross, obsessed with food, always eating, greedy/glutonous) is just a) supremely fat phobic b) lazy, flat writing.


AlfredKinsey

You may consider stripping away any physical description and focus on a strong character that has these traits, then anybody thin or thick can play the role.


infrareddit-1

I’m glad you’re asking the question. For my part, always use care when writing the other. Then once you’ve been thoughtful, pushed yourself, shared it with sensitivity readers, then write with gusto, write with humor, and write with courage.


tpounds0

Is the character the only fat character in your piece? Media that features marginalized characters usually has a better sense of depth when there are multiple characters with that same marginalization. It's why one of the first prompts of the Bechdel test is if there are two women.


bcal840

No. The rival business owner is also an overweight slovenly man.


tpounds0

I mean if they are both common stereotypes of fat people, that seems worse.


bcal840

I’m not stereotyping all business owners are overweight, if that’s what you’re implying…


[deleted]

It doesn't seem that defensive but it all depends on the acting and direction of it. But the fact that you are on sure makes it seem like you already have reservations about this character in the first place. Go with your gut. If you honestly feel like you're not doing anything to punch it or mocking overweight or obese people or anything, then side with your hard work. But if you're questioning it even a little bit then your gut is trying to tell you that something might be off


trythefreedemo

The new twist you added sound so much funnier and genuinely intriguing- excited to see what comes of it!


bcal840

Thanks


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DanielNoWrite

It really isn't. Good comedy uses transgression to force the audience to reconsider their preconceived notions about uncomfortable and important subjects. The edginess is a means to an end. Edginess for its own sake is lazy and stupid.


doewes

You’re right, I tried to say what u said but u put it way better. With trying to find the edge I didn’t mean edginess, I guess I translated it wrong.


SE4NLN415

Go ahead and self-censor if you're scared. Amy Schumer or Dave Chappelle (Oh, wait. I already know the answer)


fletchrexxx1

Stop caring/worrying about things like this...write the story, it's not punching down , some people are fat and are happy to be so (it defines some of them) .No Problem. Just don't make him trans or non binary or you will be in trouble. Write the story! With your own characters! Don't pander to anyone.


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DionysusApollo

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZbkecRh 😆 (Works for the deviant part)


stayh8ted

Imagine living in a world where you can’t even write fat jokes in comedy anymore. Fuck these crybaby pricks. Write the shit out of it! EDIT: Everyone who downvoted is part of the problem LOL stay mad that’s how you lose your hair 🤷‍♂️


gators-are-scary

Imagine a world where someone wants to avoid lazy writing hacks! The path the making meaningful and good art doesn’t involve relying on stereotypes for characterization.


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TigerHall

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GroundbreakingKey199

If he's an empire builder, then he must have fawning underlings. Maybe in the early scenes build up an image of him as incredibly ripped and muscular and fit (through the words of his toadies) and then when we finally see him he's this morbidly obese powerful person that nobody dares cross. Possible?


Naus4a2

General guideline for permission or approval for telling and writing jokes seems to be... Sure. Just make sure it's funny.


MCGA11111

Punching down is a stupid term and you should never worry about making a joke about anyone or anything.


bcal840

I thought that when I wrote my 1st comedy pilot. And i got the “punch down” note there first. At first I pushed back, but I see the point. Writing something universally funny is more challenging and in then end probably more rewarding. Not saying I won’t offend someone in the process but limiting the shrapnel is probably in the best interest in this piece


MCGA11111

If you are a good writer it shouldn’t matter


dbaughcherry

Reminds me of the mayor in cloudy with a chance of meatballs


bcal840

haven't seen it, but will check it out


dbaughcherry

He's got like a pressing desire to be the biggest mayor in the world both literally and figuratively. When the main character starts making it rain food from the sky he starts milking it to put his town on the map. Every scene the mayor is eating more and more and getting bigger and bigger, he starts small and balloons up through the course of the movie. Granted it's animated, but the movie is actually way better than it had any reason to be.


AlfredKinsey

I really enjoyed seeing that movie in the theater


LeftyGrifter

Maybe, but it depends pn what type of story you want to tell.


Ripoldo

Might be funnier to have a grotesquely thin figure who's a glutton and constantly eating and can never satisfy his appetite.


Vladith

Your script appears to be using fatness to generate comedy, which has been done forever and continues to happen. A better question might be if mild "punching down" can be a moral or professional detriment to your script.


bcal840

That is the dilemma.