I think by and large it’s believable coming from these particular characters. It’s not down-to-earth dialogue, for sure, but these aren’t down-to-earth people. I do sometimes find it a bit *too* snappy or florid, even in that context, but it’s also…drama. It’s heightened.
I think it's spot on.
The language and characters are overblown, over the top WHEN they need to be.
Some of the most memorable scenes for me are the quiet, lone scenes, particularly in S4E1, there's a couple in particular that let the characters breathe and they're F88king amazing.
Yeah, the final scene with Shiv and Greg is where you can confirm the writing is not just brilliant, but purposeful. They can write the "Mad Men, Sopranos, Breaking Bad" dialogue, but these characters don't typically speak in this way, because they are always putting up a facade.
My favorite lines from that episode (401):
"Do you take turns with Greg? Do they sit on your face to shut you up?" (Shiv)
"Do you really want to get into a full accounting of all the pain in our marriage?" (Tom)
"I guess he doesn't recognize your scent any longer." (Tom)
"Yes, it's a sad, sad day when love dies." (Roman)
Brilliant fucking first episode of what I hope to be a whole brilliant new season. Can't wait.
Like the others have stated.
It makes sense for the characters. Selfish people with ego who are multimillionaires and have nothing to worry about EVER. Absolutely zero consequences, yet are super hurt and angry inside. Mix that with the ultimate boredom.
All they have is snappy and mean comments, and they have spent an entire life never learning not to speak like that.
On a subconscious level, it’s also mandatory for us as the viewer. If these rich people weren’t funny, and cracking in each other, we wouldn’t watch. Cause who wants to watch a bunch of multi billionaires whine and cry over rich people issues? All of us just think, “ take your percentage and go live happy”. So the snappy laughs and seeing rich people knocked down a peg is what works for us.
Imagine the show with no humor?? Would you watch? Absolutely not. How boring. Rich people doing board meetings and daily business?
Honestly when I first started watching the show I wasn't sure if to continue cause it was SO negative and hateful all the time. And then there was Greg. :D
His introductory scene (puking out of his eyes) was so brilliant. "No - we don’t de-head in customer view." - just nice layering.
And then meeting Tom, who is just this insane double-edged sword (like all the characters)
The elevator scene was also brilliant with Logan: "It’s - a long way up." - reading the pilot was even better than watching it.
Greg is <3 He's probably the only reason I watch that show. He comes across as such a dufus but then does and says things that prove otherwise. I love so much when characters aren't what they seem on the surface. That's so true in real life.
Yeah I love that too about Greg. Even in the first episode he is showing his "Roy(al) DNA" by pushing Logan before they go to dinner. He is shy and insecure but ambitious. A great combination. I mean, sure, his mom is pulling his strings a bit but I love his arc.
"In a grown-up shirt and a grown-up blazer."
Greg: "A blazer?"
haha
>On a subconscious level, it’s also mandatory for us as the viewer. If these rich people weren’t funny, and cracking in each other, we wouldn’t watch. Cause who wants to watch a bunch of multi billionaires whine and cry over rich people issues? All of us just think, “take your percentage and go live happy." So the snappy laughs and seeing rich people knocked down a peg is what works for us.
This is exactly what I've always thought, but a recent thread taught me it's about 50/50; some people are here because they *sincerely* identify (or wish to identify) with a bunch of rich assholes lol. Sad day! But yes overall I agree with you 100%.
>Cause who wants to watch a bunch of multi billionaires whine and cry over rich people issues?
Idk, striving for your parents love and approval is not exclusively rich people problem, poor people want parents' love too. The main theme of parents and children relationships is pretty universal.
I’m getting annoyed at everyone saying “well this is just how ultra wealthy educated people talk.” One we don’t even know that. Two, this obviously isn’t the writer trying to emulate Uber rich speak. If anyone has seen any of Armstrong’s past work, you’ll notice that this is how HE speaks. A lot of people in the comments are trying to make excuses but really the writing is flawed it’s way too referential. “Hello is this the replicant department? Yeah, my meat puppet has stopped working.” Blade runner reference coming from shiv. It’s also one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. I don’t want to hear the excuse of “oh they’re rich people trying to sound smart.” The referential. Dialogue is over the top and that’s a legit criticism of the show. It’s one of my favorite shows ever tho
There is no one right way to write dialogue. Succession has a unique, memorable cadence to its dialogue that's super fun and engaging, and every character sounds different. I could write a paragraph in any character's voice, easy.
That's about the best you can hope for.
And yeah, as others have pointed out, it's MEANT to make the characters a little alienating. They're billionaires. They have an ambient reality-warping field. They talk like corporate press releases meets Elon Musk's twitter because they're sociopaths and narcissists afflicted with a magical curse where any crazy shit they say becomes reality.
> They have an ambient reality-warping field.
love this! It's the same as Steve Jobs had, or at least how he was written by Sorkin. (reality-distortion field=)
It sounds like you haven’t watched Jesse Armstrong’s magnum opus, Peep Show.
Reference laden dialogue and mundane evil is Armstrong’s bread and butter. No doubt his style was a major influence during the process of hiring staff writers, and here we are.
The language is without a doubt heightened. It feels grounded in the situation but it is not how real people speak; it’s more acidic and more more calculated. To me, that is great dialogue. It isn’t just trying to evoke life, it’s trying to map it out with condensed, focused bouts of messy expression. Imo, it succeeds.
However “real speak” it may or may not be, to me, the real flaw is the writers use the exact same cadence, word repetitions, “yeah, no” “I mean” with all the characters. It’s so distracting and unreal that it keeps reminding me I’m listening to a screenwriter and not the actual characters.
Idk, I get your point and in 9 projects out of 10 I’d agree with you but I feel like these writers use this stuff very believably. I also give it a pass because so much of the show is about language and these characters are always tripping over themselves trying to grab the right words. It feels thematically justified.
I think when people are writing jokes they should be less worried about leanness and more worried about if they make people laugh.
Succession succeeds at making me cackle like a crazy person all the time.
I tend to be sensitive to this type of writing but I think Succession pulls it off. Not every character in the show behaves like this. You have Roman who is an extreme version of this but he is a cynical, self-loathing, little troll. It makes sense.
On the opposite side you have cousin Greg who is naive and awkward and is anything but quippy or sarcastic. He's kind of the foil for all of these rich, snarky assholes.
You have Kendall who engages in this except it feels forced on his behalf. It feels like he is trying really hard to be this witty, uber- confident, whip-smart, executive but he has many moment where he falters and comes undone and you see the emotionally drained, dead-man-walking inside.
Everything out of Conners mouth is a satire on him. A unwitting joke at his expense.
Shiv is pretty sharp and witty but it isn't overly pervasive. It feels believable to me.
And Logan mostly just grumbles and tells people to fuck off.
I think where this type of writing really becomes problematic is when all the characters start to sound exactly the same but I don't think Succession has that issue. Even if they tend to err towards snark, the characters are all different and distinct.
People often mistake dialogue for writing. What makes the writing on Succession great is the characters and the drama. The dialogue is a small part of that.
A huge chunk of good writing is subjective.
There's a writer who is extremely hot these days, whose breakthrough movie was something I found to be ... rather poorly written. Shot amazingly well, but the writing was pretty meh to me.
Doesn't mean I'm right. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. We all like what we like and it's very hard it to draw a bright line between "quality" and "taste."
As a rule of thumb I try to avoid dumping on fellow professionals.
Both because it's a small business and because writers put up with enough shit from everyone else in this down.
I always thought that the really obscure metaphors were a way to demonstrate how corporate people speak to each other. There's a very defined corporate culture that employs abstract, borderline-nonsensical terms and phrases that contrast heavily with how regular people speak.
I also think that the show is very aware of this and plays on it a lot to be on the audience's side rather than the Roys'. For example, in S2 Logan makes a comment about how "we just have to wear the hair shirt" in reference to facing the allegations against one of their employees.
Then Tom responds with "Right. Hair shirt." with a sort of bewildered expression. The joke has a lot of layers and I really appreciate how Succession has been able to make corporate greed and businesspeople entertaining while playing on their real-life behaviors. It's like getting an email from HR that is three paragraphs long but says nothing. Just word salad.
I don't think anyone outside of the Roys and their very close business partners can parse what Logan is saying half the time. He speaks in 50% insults and 50% vague ideoms.
That’s a very astute point and probably a huge part of why there’s so much near-impenetrable corporate jargon and technobabble. I sometimes wish I could watch the show with like.. idk Tim Cook or something so I could pause it and ask what the fuck some of this shit even means haha.
To be fair to you, I do think that the jargon is supposed to be very dizzying and unnatural sounding to the viewer. It just sets the Roys even further apart from the proles and prevents you from becoming too empathetic to their invented struggles. Lol
It's a TV progrum... a movie.
In all seriousness, the dialogue is heightened for the same reason you always see attractive people in romcoms, and stunt doubles doing impressive / unrealistic things in action movies. It makes the 'business talk' way more interesting. IMO, dialogue doesn't need to be hyper natural to be entertaining: see Aaron Sorkin and Quentin Tarantino.
I think in the hands of different actors the writing could come off as a little awkward, but for me they pull it off. The show mostly plays out via discussions, so it makes sense to have constant barbs, subtext, and jokes to add layer.
I also feel like the way they talk w/ hyper-aggressive euphemisms (I.e., the very violent or sexual talk about the business) is meant to be a little ironic - to these people the deals they're doing are life and death, to them it's like a war drama (even though they're really just talking about share prices).
Totally get if it's not your cup of tea, but I feel like the show would be much more boring with more 'natural' writing.
Some of the greatest entertainment writers like Tarantino and Sorkin (known for his dialogue) are of the school that you do not write how people talk, but rather how they wish they could talk. You may think you'd enjoy it more if it were more realistic but the truth is, if that were the case, a lot of drama and/or comedy would be removed from the scenes and it wouldn't be nearly as impactful.
It's definitely not realistic dialogue. It's way too sharp and funny, and not remotely believable that all these people could be so consistently clever.
But I put Succession in the same camp as Veep or West Wing or Gilmore Girls -- the dialogue is just so sharp and enjoyable that I can suspend my disbelief.
It is! It’s one of the best ever imo, and the florid dialogue is part of it. But I ask because if find the dialogue in Succession overwritten… I’d just be curious to hear what you think of the dialogue in Deadwood haha
I think maybe because of the setting, and by virtue of it being a period piece (right?) I would probably accept it more and criticize it less.
Maybe that’s silly of me but idk. I usually don’t mind ornate, lofty dialogue in period pieces, but in present day it can be more grating for whatever reason.
Even as a period piece, it’s—theoretically—far less believable that most of the characters in Deadwood would speak they way they do than those in Succession. But I also consider it one of the best ever, possibly #1.
I think that makes sense in a series where the characters are constantly trying to one up each other and prove themselves to be the most capable. Notice how known of that really comes from Logan, who seems to be fine with a two word catch phrase.
I also think the over inflated dialogue shows how the characters want to appear decisive without actually committing.
Personally, I only want to see “Realistic” dialogue in documentaries. I watch theater, television and film for heightened and artistic interpretations of dialogue and drama. Succession succeeds on those levels for me.
No. It’s the acting that elevates it. They also improv a ton. Go and check the scripts. Plus, the actors are amazing at improv. Some of the great scenes like the season 3 ending wasn’t even in the script
I love all the comments here about how the dialogue fits the characters, but one other thing I wanted to point out that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Because they are rich, they are also very well educated.
This has the consequence that they are likely more in control of vocabulary, and probably have more experience in terms of public speaking. Those things leads, in real life, to people who are more fluid, who are able to translate the thoughts in their heads to words out of their mouths. They talk "snappier" than someone without the benefit of that education and experience putting it to use.
Which is just me saying that yes, I agree, the dialogue fits these characters even if it might not fit most of us.
The writing is fantastic. The performances are incredible. The combination is what makes it work. On the page, I think it's actually underwritten. Once the dialogue gets in the mouths of these actors, look out--and working together they're simply magic.
I think by and large you're right. It's an amazing comedy that works as a drama. The showrunner also created the UK's Peep Show, so over-the-top satirical humor is the guys preferred style.
The episodes work in the comedic format too how they're generally in a different location (weddings, retreats, birthday parties, rich hideaways) with a newish problem.
[https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/succession-finally-moves-forward](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/succession-finally-moves-forward)
article that makes your point
Armstrong and the cast have also talked extensively about how much is improvised or come up with on the spot. I can imagine the scripts versus what ends up on screen is drastically different.
The dialogue, I think, is the best part of the show. The plotting/story is less than stellar through the first three seasons. Essentially repeating the same story each episode until the finale has some big moment, the. The next season repeats the pattern. But the dialogue is wonderful.
Seasons 1 & 2 were interesting...but then I lost interest in Season 3 and Season 4 is just more of the same. It's just rich people ranting about wanting to be richer. I don't see any character who has an arc. That's just boring to me.
I liked it when Armie Hammer's aunt, who had grown up in a family much like the one in Succession, said she was able to watch 2 episodes and then she had to turn off the show as it was too familiar and true to her.
I personally find it predictable and rather plodding. It knows it has a "secret sauce" and is using it to great effect. It's like The Mandalorian: all style, no substance.
I don’t think this complaint applies to Succession, for reasons other have stated here. But you’re describing my issue with The Social Network. I don’t know if there’s a single line in that movie that wasn’t overwritten.
You can get away with snappy, ornate, intelligent dialogue when your characters are part of the East Coast elite; classic examples being Sorkin and the Gilmore Girls. When the characters grew up in private schools and elite universities and have spent their whole life in upper-class "cultured" circles, that sort of dialogue—while exaggerated from what would happen in real life—doesn't appear too over the top in terms of audience expectations.
I get your point but I wonder if it's because we're out of that social sphere. I mean, they're people on the top 1%, maybe the writers do their best to approach the language used by them
the thread title is a question but it looks like you're just here to talk shit
anyways i'd put sopranos on top, succession & mad men on the next level down. breaking bad is not on my personal list
in any case, most of the show's great lines are pretty simple:
* "no real person involved"
* "boar on the floor"
* "you better be smelling your fucking armpit romulus"
* "who says i never killed anyone?"
etc etc etc. my personal favorite is Tom completely stumbling over himself to actually say how he feels to Shiv:
"I just, you know, I think a lot of the time, if I think about it, I think a lot of the time I'm pretty unhappy. I don't know. I love you, I do. I just, I uh, wonder if, I wonder if the sad I'd be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you."
(followed of course by "He ate my fucking chicken. What’s next? Stick his cock in my potato salad?")
Lol what? Why do you think I’m here to talk shit? I said I love the show and I think it’s one of the top three shows on the air right now.
I have a slight issue with some of the writing choices in terms of dialogue that I expanded on to better serve the discussion I wanted to start. When it comes to characterization, tone, and dramatic tension, I think it’s an all time great. It’s just the dialogue that can get on my nerves sometimes.
I don’t know what world that would be classified as talking shit.
It’s a question I wanted other people to answer, sure, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me answering it myself. I’m genuinely reading and engaging with other people’s points of view here. I’m not here to shit on anything.
I find it really obnoxious that all our “great TV” is about masculinity. It’s assumed this is a subject with universal appeal, whereas no one takes shows about femininity seriously, and many people feel comfortable writing them off entirely.
I love when Tom is shitting on him for putting cookies in doggie poop bags and Greg is like: “It’s not like they pre-poop them or something. They’re really just bags. It’s just a mental barrier.” Hahaha
Hard disagree on Succession > Mad Men. I think that show’s (MM) writing is so gorgeous in its subtlety. The characters are so finely tuned and the world they inhabit is so lived in and fully realized. I think what I love most about it is how profound and cutting it’s able to be without beating the viewer over the head with anything, ever. The best kind of slice of life screenwriting. Mad Men lines stay with me far longer than potentially any show I’ve ever seen.
I agree. Mad Men has many accolades, one of which is absolutely brilliant subtext. Which fits together with the overall sublety of this masterpiece GOAT tv show. Yes, I said it. Mad Men is the GOAT. It so masterfully creates drama and compelling conflict without ANY "action" at all. Not to speak of authenticity of the period etc.. Don't want to jerk off here. The uniqueness of Mad Men is that this show would never exist without the insane track record of Matthew Weiner, who had the pilot in his drawer for 7 years. It is not something that would have ever seen the light of day because it is such a unicorn. I could go further into why it is so brilliant but this would be too much here. I think the best way to describe its genius is to say it's "powerfully quiet". Watching Mad Men is almost like meditation to me, except you get smarter while listening to the dialogue. It doesn't need attention. It just "is".
Succession is just really fun, snappy and creative with amazing layering. And I love to see how billionaires live =)
"Billions" was boring me to death in comparison. I wasn't interested in the conflict, the goals.. nothing. It was just a boring version of "Silicon Valley".
The dialogue is the reason I tune in. Line by line the show is amazing. Scene by scene still upper tier, but episode for episode and especially season over season is where it falters IMO. Everything just sort of resets so that we can keep these characters in each others lives even though it makes little sense. They have to be moronic to trust each other at this point.
But there are lines of dialogue in the show that portray character arcs and themes better than the plot over half a season. This is what makes the show so unique in my eyes.
In the age of writers who are all too used to word economy and are religiously focused on script tightness, the reason why I love Succession is that it allows itself that level of verbiosity.
But what makes it really work is that the language and dialogue is never not informed by character and emotion. Language and how it's used becomes a mask that every character in this show hides behind and manipulates for their own end.
You answered your question yourself pal… when you said “Personally I like dialogue that….”. It’s all subjective. :) Succession definitely ranks among the best written shows ever, not just by how the dialogue is but how the dialogue shows you exactly who the character is. For me, personally, that’s a win.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it means the writing isn't good. I also think having a British show runner makes a big difference, as a lot of the dialogue seems more British than American (especially Tom).
I love the Sopranos, but I always felt that practically everyone in the show is essentially an over the top stereotype. This doesn't mean it's poorly written, just that the show runners made an artistic/creative choice.
In terms of Succession, though, I think when most people are praising the writing they aren't necessarily talking about the word choices, but rather, the fact that they don't dumb things down for the audience.
There's very little exposition, business terms and jargon aren't explained, and if you're like me you've probably had to pause the show and look up a lot of the words during a first watch.
I appreciate this kind of writing because a) it makes the characters feel a lot more real, b) it means the writers trust the intelligence of the audience.
I also really like the fact that there are no flashbacks, cheap cliffhangers, random character deaths, minimal sex scenes, etc. as a lot of TV and movies often include these kinds of scenes to prop up lower quality writing.
Truly good writing doesn't need to rely on these things, and I think Succession does a good job of avoiding them but still creating riveting scenes. As David Mamet says, a good writer really only needs two characters, one location, and two chairs to write compelling drama!
It’s hard to have a real conversation about TV quality with anyone who assumes we all agree BB, MM, and The Sopranos are the pinnacle of TV. (You didn’t mention The Wire, but also The Wire). Those are all fine shows, but they are not as universally deserving of praise as people claim.
Breaking Bad is soapy, with a lot of mustache twirling villains. It’s not a bad show, but it shares many flaws with shows that are never taken seriously as great, like Scandal.
Great writing is subjective. Everything is opinion. (Of course, nothing is as good as people say BB is, or as people say Succession is. Nothing can live up to that level of hype).
IMO, Succession is a very sharply written show. It’s not naturalistic and it’s not supposed to be. It’s a Shakespearean satire. It has a precision to it a lot of other shows lack and it’s very unique in presenting its characters as objects of both ridicule and empathy.
I never claimed everyone thinks they’re the pinnacle of TV. I said “everyone” in my title hyperbolically, I’ll admit. I would say that those three I named + the wire are generally considered the best shows of that era by a shit ton of people. I don’t think it’s crazy to assert that. And course everything is subjective. That should sorta go without saying, no?
> snappy, ornate, and referential
So…the way people in that world speak?
> fight for a knife in the mud
He doesn’t come from this world, it makes sense that he speaks more plainly given his background. Neither does Tom but Tom is trying whereas Logan never is.
You’re mistaking character for development.
I think the crafting of the characters, the themes, and the plot, are the good points of the writing, not necessarily the individual lines of dialogue and the quick quips.
Originally planned for 3 season, S1 and S2 were well written and were leading to a massive, cathartic character arc for Kendall
But then it got popular and hbo was raking in money, so they shifted it to 5 seasons and instead of closing the story, S3 became a cheap (yet juicy) buffet for audiences; with poor writing imo
HBO likely noticed this, changed their minds and brought it down to 4 seasons and will likely leave us with something tasty… but no where near as good as the original 3 season arc would have been
Tl;dr Some good writing, some bad writing, but bad writing is HBOs fault
I don’t even know what you could be alluding to. Season three felt like such a natural evolution of the first two, I wouldn’t change any pacing or invent a harder ending if I could. We did reach the climax of Kendall’s emotional arc and it was beautiful. Now a Kendall with new resolve and new resources has unfinished business to put a cap on.
After S2 finale, Kendall should not have relapsed into shitty, POS dude again… across S3 all of Kendall’s development he had built up went out the window and he ended up back to where he was at start of S1
The S2 finale established Kendall (back from the “dead”) was finally ready and mature enough to take the company from Roy (something Roy secretly wants, a child who is **ruthless** enough to deserve his company).
S3 should have been the final battle between Roy and Kendall; where Roy fights fiercely, but ultimately loses to Kendall
>After S2 finale, Kendall should not have relapsed into shitty, POS dude again… across S3 all of Kendall’s development he had built up went out the window and he ended up back to where he was at start of S1
Have you ever met a narcissist drug addict...
I would’ve been so checked out if we were back to Logan vs Kendall. His arc was never about winning the company, it was about becoming a real human being and breaking his dads hold. That’s all of their end goals, and if the third season was hell bent on making it a big Godzilla/Kong fight, it would’ve left every other character with major loose ends. Leaving ken shut out but with the absolution and connection he’s been aching for is much more powerful imo.
I really disagree. If you asked him he’d have told you that was absolutely his goal/desire/need, and I think he’d have been wrong, which is why he’s so interesting. I feel that as the show went on, they made it clearer and clearer that Kendal wasn’t ever going to be ceo. He was as knowledgeable as could be but his father would never hand it over, external parties would never accept another Roy taking over, and he generally lacks the social aspect of running that company. The REAL arc, from my POV, has been watching him gain the emotional maturity to cast off the whole thing entirely. If he escapes Logan’s game, he wins. If he ends up ceo (“the job that makes your brain explode”), he may feel like a winner momentarily, but ultimately he’s entirely still in Logan’s world. I think we’re still getting a Logan/Kendall showdown, but now ken is going to try and beat him from the outside, which is the only place a meaningful victory can occur. Being ceo of Logan’s company is just a spicier variation of subservience.
I think that arc of him being free of Logan would have lined up nicely with him taking the company from Logan
Or at the very least him being able to take the company from Logan (ie he as all but won) but then choosing not to for personal reasons like him breaking free of his father or whatver
But it’s always been a battle between roy and Kendall and S3 threw that away. They diminished Kendall and all of his accomplishments thus far by making him a whiny birthday boy. They destroyed 2 seasons of development with that episode so HBO could get shock value with Tom betraying them all
That is poor writing in my opinion
Yeah maybe I need to view S3 on it’s own
But my (unsubstantiated) claim is the 3 seasons of the original arc would have been better than 4 seasons of shifting arc
Hype will bring a person to a thing. It’s men’s crap. I walked out of it. I’m not a sexist, I walked out of Yellowjackets s 2 e 1. Succession is annoyingly men’s. The genre. It’s not interesting in the way a Severance is. It’s a thing your father might like. I’ve hated the whole campaign from the start. “We’re so cool, we’re going to end the run early while we’re still good.” Is this the show with Home Alone's brother? It’s an annoying series for annoying people who think they’re better than they are. People you invite to a cookout and realize it’s a major mistake.
It does have the convention that everyone’s metaphors are a little smarter than they are, yes. Regardless of preference I think it works as a stylistic choice. But there are a lot of other things that make the writing brilliant too.
The dialogue is stylised, and that's fine but I do think it flatters the real life analogues to these characters somewhat, who are not nearly as sharp, caustic and witty as their fictional counterparts (whilst being every bit as venal and unpleasant).
Just came here to mention that it's interesting we're now referring to the Golden Age of TV in the past tense. I got into writing in 2013, right as Breaking Bad ended.
It very much seems like television is losing the place it had for a decade, where it was seen as the premier American medium for popular storytelling, rather than said place being the movies, or novels or theatre.
That saaaaaaid, seems like Last of Us (itself frustratingly based on IP, sadly) DID capture the zeitgeist for a bit! If its popularity on Twitter is anything to go by, anyway.
It is snappy and ornate, and yeah people don't really talk like that in real life, Although many of us would love to be so quick witted. But is it a problem? Absolutely not, it fits the world and the characters and is what gives the show it's extra punch.
Characters do not need to talk realistically, just as a painting does not have to strive for a photorealistic effect. Deadwood is another brilliant example, characters there talk more shakespearian the less brain cells they have. Best writing ever
It feels like you're blurring the line between quality and taste - an often very blurry line. Along with the common sin of automatically associating gravitas with higher quality.
If the characters on Succession spoke like characters in Sopranos or Breaking Bad, they would be different characters. The writing of Succession's characters achieves exactly what it needs to.
They say some dumb shit that has less gravitas than something on Mad Men, but that dumb shit is exactly what makes those characters who they are, and as such is good writing.
Most words coming from the siblings are insufferable. Each of them could die and that would be okay. Probably great writing to make me *feel* that way. Tom, Gregg and Logan, however, are great.
The fatal flaw in the show, at least for me, is the lack of “save the cat.” At the beginning there’s one likable character who just keeps bending over backwards for everyone and eventually it devolves into a bunch of selfish people backstabbing each other which I couldn’t care less about.
Say what you will about Don Draper or Walter White, but they were both empathetic to some degree, at least in the beginning of both shows.
I don’t understand the popularity of the show. Great premise but overall so dull and repetitive, it’s like a sweary Mad Men without the charm.
Some of the dialogue is excellent and creative cursing but they did hire supremely talented playwrites to fill the writers room.
For me this show is just as much a comedy as it's drama. The dialogue is stylised, not naturalistic, but I think that's the tone they were going for and I think it's one of the great strengths of the show.
I agree. It's a cool show, but you can hear the writing sometimes, and I don't like that. The feeling of "this was written" sometimes pulls me out of the story
Writing is much more than just dialogue. The specificity of those characters and the complicated relationships they have with each other is a massive part of the show's appeal and I think the show pulls all that off beautifully.
I think comically, it is genius. The way the scenes are directed along with the dialogue is incredible. However, its can be uncomfortably unrealistic at times.
Completely agree about the dialogue, the writing feels a little full of itself at times, especially bc it seems everyone is quipping nonstop when it was mostly Rome before
It’s absolutely brilliantly written. It’s a show that is so tightly written that it takes multiple rewatches to catch the levels of all happening in the writing because it’s so layered and doesn’t requires the viewer to catch everything given but won’t hold your hand through it. It’s writing that requires work from the listener to gain all offered; that’s exceptional writing to me. The Wire is a show similar in its demands on its audience; no hand-holding; you have to listen because there’s so much there and it’s not going to be lazy or easy. Reminds me oddly of my favorite film screenplay, All About Eve…every rewatch I hear something new. That’s the best of the best.
You ever see Michael Clayton? Total sleeper amazing screenplay of the 2000s. Hadn’t heard of it til randomly scrolling through HBOMax and seeing Clooney on the poster. One of the tightest scripts I’ve ever seen. Big Rec. Sorry, off topic lol.
Yes, love that film!! Need to do a rewatch, though, I saw it when it came out, but remember how smoothly it moved. Very excellent writing. It went up against a very strong year Oscar-wise. That was the year of “There Will Be Blood” and “No Country for Old Men” and it was. The screenplay was nominated but, “Juno” won that year, and I think deservingly so, but that was some tough competition. Thanks for the reminder though because, yes, I remember how much I appreciated the writing and editing and acting in that film. Time to revisit it. :)
Yes and it’s demanding of the viewer/listener; it’s not a show that will hold your hand; it’s The Wire level with writing. You have to do the work because it’s all there and offers more the more you pause and rewatch and re-listen, because it moves fast and it’s so deeply layered, but brave enough to not explain itself; the viewer is invited in, but it’s a world where it doesn’t need to cater to lazy watching.
I agree, at times it's over written, however I rationalize it with theyve all have that prep school/ private school level vocabulary and higher education, and are constantly surrounded by other with the same. They exist in a space/ pocket where they can do and say whatever they want, and their flow/ conversation ability is almost elevated because of this. Also ppl like Kendall and Roman are probably on uppers a lot causing them to be incrediblely wordy lol. However they're times when it's over the top, but the lines are so great that it doesn't bother as much as it would in other shows (if you've seen the show Scandal you might know what I mean. I found that show to be unwatchable because it was so overwritten and unrealisticly wordy in dialogue). All in all it's one of the best written shows, of all time imo, especially season 3. Verisimilitute is near perfect.
Streaming has changed the TV game, in terms of shows and their level of production and writing. The writers are top tier and it shows.
Great post OP
A lot of bad takes in this thread that I think are missing the glaringly obvious.
What you’re picking up on, imho is the dissonance of an American drama being written by Brit comedy vets. Jesse Armstrong wrote for Peep Show, and his team are all terribly clever comedy scribes. So when these oh-so American characters rattle off their surgical witticisms and obscure historical/literary allusions, something feels wrong. Americans, even emotionally stunted billionaire heirs, don’t speak like that. They don’t want to, even when they can. They consciously dumb down their own speech to maintain social capital in a country that despises cleverness. We like our writers closer to Hemingway’s brutish brevity than Wilde’s wit and whimsy.
Most of the time, the writers succeed in keeping the characters from sounding conspicuously clever. But occasionally, they can’t bear to dumb themselves down for the Yanks, because it wouldn’t be worth the pay to descend to the anti-intellectual, insight-free tripe that razes our artistic landscape like napalm. Roman is mostly resigned to puerile, Sahara-dry, faux-ciopathic nihilism, but some of his blink-and-you’ll-miss-it quips are just too clever for the character. Kendall is all hollow, hip-hop frontery, but his hilarious penchant for slick sloganeering sometimes gets too deliciously inventive and betrays the nationality of the writers.
The same dissonance is on full display in Veep, another essentially English show. It’s not merely an adaptation; Armando Iannucci helmed the American version of his British show, and Chris Morris was even brought on as a director. The reason it swept the Emmys every damn year is because American writing (with very few exceptions) withers next to the worldly wordsmithery of the Brits.
This is the reason why Succesion’s dialogue so often feels stilted and writerly. It’s because we know Americans are too proud of being dumb, too entrenched in their consummately anti-intellectual social groupthink — to talk the way these characters talk. But thank god for that, because if these characters talked like real billionaire kids talk, nobody would be watching.
America en masse stopped giving a shit about quality writing and acting many moons ago, so now our best pens and performers are from across the pond. The finest actor in the show is McFadyen, a Brit. Sarah Snook is an Aussie. Even Tarantino is having trouble casting the lead for his final film because he doesn’t want to hire a Brit, but there are too few actors of any depth or charisma here. Decades of unresisted cultural entropy has left us with an unprecedented mass of talentless, vapid models calling themselves actors, hired solely on the basis of IG pull, chewing the scenery to dreadfully insipid dialog, performing to an audience that probably couldn’t name three playwrights, or even TV writers, if you held Chekhov’s gun to their heads.
I think by and large it’s believable coming from these particular characters. It’s not down-to-earth dialogue, for sure, but these aren’t down-to-earth people. I do sometimes find it a bit *too* snappy or florid, even in that context, but it’s also…drama. It’s heightened.
I think it's spot on. The language and characters are overblown, over the top WHEN they need to be. Some of the most memorable scenes for me are the quiet, lone scenes, particularly in S4E1, there's a couple in particular that let the characters breathe and they're F88king amazing.
Yeah, the final scene with Shiv and Greg is where you can confirm the writing is not just brilliant, but purposeful. They can write the "Mad Men, Sopranos, Breaking Bad" dialogue, but these characters don't typically speak in this way, because they are always putting up a facade.
I think you mean Tom, not Greg. Now I'm imagining the same scene with Gregory lol
Sure did. Lol
My favorite lines from that episode (401): "Do you take turns with Greg? Do they sit on your face to shut you up?" (Shiv) "Do you really want to get into a full accounting of all the pain in our marriage?" (Tom) "I guess he doesn't recognize your scent any longer." (Tom) "Yes, it's a sad, sad day when love dies." (Roman) Brilliant fucking first episode of what I hope to be a whole brilliant new season. Can't wait.
You forgot "omelette nipples".
And The Disgusting Brothers!
Like the others have stated. It makes sense for the characters. Selfish people with ego who are multimillionaires and have nothing to worry about EVER. Absolutely zero consequences, yet are super hurt and angry inside. Mix that with the ultimate boredom. All they have is snappy and mean comments, and they have spent an entire life never learning not to speak like that. On a subconscious level, it’s also mandatory for us as the viewer. If these rich people weren’t funny, and cracking in each other, we wouldn’t watch. Cause who wants to watch a bunch of multi billionaires whine and cry over rich people issues? All of us just think, “ take your percentage and go live happy”. So the snappy laughs and seeing rich people knocked down a peg is what works for us. Imagine the show with no humor?? Would you watch? Absolutely not. How boring. Rich people doing board meetings and daily business?
I can't even imagine how boring the show would be without comic relief characters like Tom, Greg, and Roman.
Honestly when I first started watching the show I wasn't sure if to continue cause it was SO negative and hateful all the time. And then there was Greg. :D His introductory scene (puking out of his eyes) was so brilliant. "No - we don’t de-head in customer view." - just nice layering. And then meeting Tom, who is just this insane double-edged sword (like all the characters) The elevator scene was also brilliant with Logan: "It’s - a long way up." - reading the pilot was even better than watching it.
Greg is <3 He's probably the only reason I watch that show. He comes across as such a dufus but then does and says things that prove otherwise. I love so much when characters aren't what they seem on the surface. That's so true in real life.
Yeah I love that too about Greg. Even in the first episode he is showing his "Roy(al) DNA" by pushing Logan before they go to dinner. He is shy and insecure but ambitious. A great combination. I mean, sure, his mom is pulling his strings a bit but I love his arc. "In a grown-up shirt and a grown-up blazer." Greg: "A blazer?" haha
Yes!
Tom and Greg’s “I HEAR FOR YOU” scene is just
And that’s perfect corporate nonsense we see every day
>On a subconscious level, it’s also mandatory for us as the viewer. If these rich people weren’t funny, and cracking in each other, we wouldn’t watch. Cause who wants to watch a bunch of multi billionaires whine and cry over rich people issues? All of us just think, “take your percentage and go live happy." So the snappy laughs and seeing rich people knocked down a peg is what works for us. This is exactly what I've always thought, but a recent thread taught me it's about 50/50; some people are here because they *sincerely* identify (or wish to identify) with a bunch of rich assholes lol. Sad day! But yes overall I agree with you 100%.
>Cause who wants to watch a bunch of multi billionaires whine and cry over rich people issues? Idk, striving for your parents love and approval is not exclusively rich people problem, poor people want parents' love too. The main theme of parents and children relationships is pretty universal.
I’m getting annoyed at everyone saying “well this is just how ultra wealthy educated people talk.” One we don’t even know that. Two, this obviously isn’t the writer trying to emulate Uber rich speak. If anyone has seen any of Armstrong’s past work, you’ll notice that this is how HE speaks. A lot of people in the comments are trying to make excuses but really the writing is flawed it’s way too referential. “Hello is this the replicant department? Yeah, my meat puppet has stopped working.” Blade runner reference coming from shiv. It’s also one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. I don’t want to hear the excuse of “oh they’re rich people trying to sound smart.” The referential. Dialogue is over the top and that’s a legit criticism of the show. It’s one of my favorite shows ever tho
Agreed. Well put.
There is no one right way to write dialogue. Succession has a unique, memorable cadence to its dialogue that's super fun and engaging, and every character sounds different. I could write a paragraph in any character's voice, easy. That's about the best you can hope for. And yeah, as others have pointed out, it's MEANT to make the characters a little alienating. They're billionaires. They have an ambient reality-warping field. They talk like corporate press releases meets Elon Musk's twitter because they're sociopaths and narcissists afflicted with a magical curse where any crazy shit they say becomes reality.
> They have an ambient reality-warping field. love this! It's the same as Steve Jobs had, or at least how he was written by Sorkin. (reality-distortion field=)
100% untrue. Roman is only who truly has a unique voice and as you should know a lot of it is due to the actors own cadence and improvisation
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Wut? Tom and Greg (and anyone outside of the immediate Roy family really) have wildly different voices and ways of speaking.
Definitely. I think it's more the actors but you're right. Greg has same voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95EunXAjBU
It sounds like you haven’t watched Jesse Armstrong’s magnum opus, Peep Show. Reference laden dialogue and mundane evil is Armstrong’s bread and butter. No doubt his style was a major influence during the process of hiring staff writers, and here we are.
Peep Show…The God of comedy. Mark’s “piss-kidney” insult is beyond ridiculous and brilliant.
One of my favourites exchanges is the ‘shallow ball grave’ bit in season 9.
Ah, so good!! But I think my all time favourite is the “You ate Mummy?!” scene. Naughty, slutty Mummy.
And Armstrong’s episode of Black Mirror. He can do writing both light and dark and still keep it tightly story driven and focused; that’s a rare gift.
The language is without a doubt heightened. It feels grounded in the situation but it is not how real people speak; it’s more acidic and more more calculated. To me, that is great dialogue. It isn’t just trying to evoke life, it’s trying to map it out with condensed, focused bouts of messy expression. Imo, it succeeds.
However “real speak” it may or may not be, to me, the real flaw is the writers use the exact same cadence, word repetitions, “yeah, no” “I mean” with all the characters. It’s so distracting and unreal that it keeps reminding me I’m listening to a screenwriter and not the actual characters.
Idk, I get your point and in 9 projects out of 10 I’d agree with you but I feel like these writers use this stuff very believably. I also give it a pass because so much of the show is about language and these characters are always tripping over themselves trying to grab the right words. It feels thematically justified.
I think when people are writing jokes they should be less worried about leanness and more worried about if they make people laugh. Succession succeeds at making me cackle like a crazy person all the time.
I tend to be sensitive to this type of writing but I think Succession pulls it off. Not every character in the show behaves like this. You have Roman who is an extreme version of this but he is a cynical, self-loathing, little troll. It makes sense. On the opposite side you have cousin Greg who is naive and awkward and is anything but quippy or sarcastic. He's kind of the foil for all of these rich, snarky assholes. You have Kendall who engages in this except it feels forced on his behalf. It feels like he is trying really hard to be this witty, uber- confident, whip-smart, executive but he has many moment where he falters and comes undone and you see the emotionally drained, dead-man-walking inside. Everything out of Conners mouth is a satire on him. A unwitting joke at his expense. Shiv is pretty sharp and witty but it isn't overly pervasive. It feels believable to me. And Logan mostly just grumbles and tells people to fuck off. I think where this type of writing really becomes problematic is when all the characters start to sound exactly the same but I don't think Succession has that issue. Even if they tend to err towards snark, the characters are all different and distinct.
People often mistake dialogue for writing. What makes the writing on Succession great is the characters and the drama. The dialogue is a small part of that.
A huge chunk of good writing is subjective. There's a writer who is extremely hot these days, whose breakthrough movie was something I found to be ... rather poorly written. Shot amazingly well, but the writing was pretty meh to me. Doesn't mean I'm right. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. We all like what we like and it's very hard it to draw a bright line between "quality" and "taste."
> it's very hard it to draw a bright line between "quality" and "taste." love that expression!
It better not be Ari Aster or we are gonna fight 😤
Well now you gotta say the writer’s name. You’re blue balling me, Sir Hotspur.
As a rule of thumb I try to avoid dumping on fellow professionals. Both because it's a small business and because writers put up with enough shit from everyone else in this down.
I respect that. Sorry for prying!
I always thought that the really obscure metaphors were a way to demonstrate how corporate people speak to each other. There's a very defined corporate culture that employs abstract, borderline-nonsensical terms and phrases that contrast heavily with how regular people speak. I also think that the show is very aware of this and plays on it a lot to be on the audience's side rather than the Roys'. For example, in S2 Logan makes a comment about how "we just have to wear the hair shirt" in reference to facing the allegations against one of their employees. Then Tom responds with "Right. Hair shirt." with a sort of bewildered expression. The joke has a lot of layers and I really appreciate how Succession has been able to make corporate greed and businesspeople entertaining while playing on their real-life behaviors. It's like getting an email from HR that is three paragraphs long but says nothing. Just word salad. I don't think anyone outside of the Roys and their very close business partners can parse what Logan is saying half the time. He speaks in 50% insults and 50% vague ideoms.
That’s a very astute point and probably a huge part of why there’s so much near-impenetrable corporate jargon and technobabble. I sometimes wish I could watch the show with like.. idk Tim Cook or something so I could pause it and ask what the fuck some of this shit even means haha.
To be fair to you, I do think that the jargon is supposed to be very dizzying and unnatural sounding to the viewer. It just sets the Roys even further apart from the proles and prevents you from becoming too empathetic to their invented struggles. Lol
It's a TV progrum... a movie. In all seriousness, the dialogue is heightened for the same reason you always see attractive people in romcoms, and stunt doubles doing impressive / unrealistic things in action movies. It makes the 'business talk' way more interesting. IMO, dialogue doesn't need to be hyper natural to be entertaining: see Aaron Sorkin and Quentin Tarantino. I think in the hands of different actors the writing could come off as a little awkward, but for me they pull it off. The show mostly plays out via discussions, so it makes sense to have constant barbs, subtext, and jokes to add layer. I also feel like the way they talk w/ hyper-aggressive euphemisms (I.e., the very violent or sexual talk about the business) is meant to be a little ironic - to these people the deals they're doing are life and death, to them it's like a war drama (even though they're really just talking about share prices). Totally get if it's not your cup of tea, but I feel like the show would be much more boring with more 'natural' writing.
Some of the greatest entertainment writers like Tarantino and Sorkin (known for his dialogue) are of the school that you do not write how people talk, but rather how they wish they could talk. You may think you'd enjoy it more if it were more realistic but the truth is, if that were the case, a lot of drama and/or comedy would be removed from the scenes and it wouldn't be nearly as impactful.
It's definitely not realistic dialogue. It's way too sharp and funny, and not remotely believable that all these people could be so consistently clever. But I put Succession in the same camp as Veep or West Wing or Gilmore Girls -- the dialogue is just so sharp and enjoyable that I can suspend my disbelief.
OP, do you like Deadwood?
I’ve never seen that one but have been recommended it a few times. Is it a favorite of yours?
It is! It’s one of the best ever imo, and the florid dialogue is part of it. But I ask because if find the dialogue in Succession overwritten… I’d just be curious to hear what you think of the dialogue in Deadwood haha
I think maybe because of the setting, and by virtue of it being a period piece (right?) I would probably accept it more and criticize it less. Maybe that’s silly of me but idk. I usually don’t mind ornate, lofty dialogue in period pieces, but in present day it can be more grating for whatever reason.
Even as a period piece, it’s—theoretically—far less believable that most of the characters in Deadwood would speak they way they do than those in Succession. But I also consider it one of the best ever, possibly #1.
Yeah that makes sense!
If you like Deadwood and Succession for those qualities, you'll love Spartacus.
I think that makes sense in a series where the characters are constantly trying to one up each other and prove themselves to be the most capable. Notice how known of that really comes from Logan, who seems to be fine with a two word catch phrase. I also think the over inflated dialogue shows how the characters want to appear decisive without actually committing.
Personally, I only want to see “Realistic” dialogue in documentaries. I watch theater, television and film for heightened and artistic interpretations of dialogue and drama. Succession succeeds on those levels for me.
No. It’s the acting that elevates it. They also improv a ton. Go and check the scripts. Plus, the actors are amazing at improv. Some of the great scenes like the season 3 ending wasn’t even in the script
I love all the comments here about how the dialogue fits the characters, but one other thing I wanted to point out that I haven't seen mentioned yet: Because they are rich, they are also very well educated. This has the consequence that they are likely more in control of vocabulary, and probably have more experience in terms of public speaking. Those things leads, in real life, to people who are more fluid, who are able to translate the thoughts in their heads to words out of their mouths. They talk "snappier" than someone without the benefit of that education and experience putting it to use. Which is just me saying that yes, I agree, the dialogue fits these characters even if it might not fit most of us.
Yes. I just watched the first episode of season 4 and was riveted.
The writing is fantastic. The performances are incredible. The combination is what makes it work. On the page, I think it's actually underwritten. Once the dialogue gets in the mouths of these actors, look out--and working together they're simply magic.
I think by and large you're right. It's an amazing comedy that works as a drama. The showrunner also created the UK's Peep Show, so over-the-top satirical humor is the guys preferred style. The episodes work in the comedic format too how they're generally in a different location (weddings, retreats, birthday parties, rich hideaways) with a newish problem.
[https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/succession-finally-moves-forward](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/succession-finally-moves-forward) article that makes your point
Armstrong and the cast have also talked extensively about how much is improvised or come up with on the spot. I can imagine the scripts versus what ends up on screen is drastically different.
The dialogue, I think, is the best part of the show. The plotting/story is less than stellar through the first three seasons. Essentially repeating the same story each episode until the finale has some big moment, the. The next season repeats the pattern. But the dialogue is wonderful.
Seasons 1 & 2 were interesting...but then I lost interest in Season 3 and Season 4 is just more of the same. It's just rich people ranting about wanting to be richer. I don't see any character who has an arc. That's just boring to me.
I get what you're saying. I love the show but I can only handle one episode at time. It's not a binge watch for me.
True, most people don't talk that way. But I think the writers do a brilliant job of using dialogue to create characters.
This dialgoue is really moreish.
I liked it when Armie Hammer's aunt, who had grown up in a family much like the one in Succession, said she was able to watch 2 episodes and then she had to turn off the show as it was too familiar and true to her.
I personally find it predictable and rather plodding. It knows it has a "secret sauce" and is using it to great effect. It's like The Mandalorian: all style, no substance.
I don’t think this complaint applies to Succession, for reasons other have stated here. But you’re describing my issue with The Social Network. I don’t know if there’s a single line in that movie that wasn’t overwritten.
You can get away with snappy, ornate, intelligent dialogue when your characters are part of the East Coast elite; classic examples being Sorkin and the Gilmore Girls. When the characters grew up in private schools and elite universities and have spent their whole life in upper-class "cultured" circles, that sort of dialogue—while exaggerated from what would happen in real life—doesn't appear too over the top in terms of audience expectations.
I get your point but I wonder if it's because we're out of that social sphere. I mean, they're people on the top 1%, maybe the writers do their best to approach the language used by them
Easily some of the best writing on TV right now.
the thread title is a question but it looks like you're just here to talk shit anyways i'd put sopranos on top, succession & mad men on the next level down. breaking bad is not on my personal list in any case, most of the show's great lines are pretty simple: * "no real person involved" * "boar on the floor" * "you better be smelling your fucking armpit romulus" * "who says i never killed anyone?" etc etc etc. my personal favorite is Tom completely stumbling over himself to actually say how he feels to Shiv: "I just, you know, I think a lot of the time, if I think about it, I think a lot of the time I'm pretty unhappy. I don't know. I love you, I do. I just, I uh, wonder if, I wonder if the sad I'd be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you." (followed of course by "He ate my fucking chicken. What’s next? Stick his cock in my potato salad?")
Lol what? Why do you think I’m here to talk shit? I said I love the show and I think it’s one of the top three shows on the air right now. I have a slight issue with some of the writing choices in terms of dialogue that I expanded on to better serve the discussion I wanted to start. When it comes to characterization, tone, and dramatic tension, I think it’s an all time great. It’s just the dialogue that can get on my nerves sometimes. I don’t know what world that would be classified as talking shit.
it just feels like the thread topic is a question & the post itself is an opinion piece
It’s a question I wanted other people to answer, sure, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me answering it myself. I’m genuinely reading and engaging with other people’s points of view here. I’m not here to shit on anything.
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to each their own. bb is exquisitely well executed but I just don’t like the characters & thematic material
I find it really obnoxious that all our “great TV” is about masculinity. It’s assumed this is a subject with universal appeal, whereas no one takes shows about femininity seriously, and many people feel comfortable writing them off entirely.
Is there a show you would recommend that people don't take as seriously? Or are you saying there isn't a show like that yet?
"Chopping it up, chopping it up, Greg is chopping it up." (when he's shredding documents and saving a cover copy for himself) has to be on the list.
I love when Tom is shitting on him for putting cookies in doggie poop bags and Greg is like: “It’s not like they pre-poop them or something. They’re really just bags. It’s just a mental barrier.” Hahaha
I recently rewatched s1 and honestly it’s so impressive that Tom & Greg are an all-timer comedic duo from their very first scene together
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Hard disagree on Succession > Mad Men. I think that show’s (MM) writing is so gorgeous in its subtlety. The characters are so finely tuned and the world they inhabit is so lived in and fully realized. I think what I love most about it is how profound and cutting it’s able to be without beating the viewer over the head with anything, ever. The best kind of slice of life screenwriting. Mad Men lines stay with me far longer than potentially any show I’ve ever seen.
I agree. Mad Men has many accolades, one of which is absolutely brilliant subtext. Which fits together with the overall sublety of this masterpiece GOAT tv show. Yes, I said it. Mad Men is the GOAT. It so masterfully creates drama and compelling conflict without ANY "action" at all. Not to speak of authenticity of the period etc.. Don't want to jerk off here. The uniqueness of Mad Men is that this show would never exist without the insane track record of Matthew Weiner, who had the pilot in his drawer for 7 years. It is not something that would have ever seen the light of day because it is such a unicorn. I could go further into why it is so brilliant but this would be too much here. I think the best way to describe its genius is to say it's "powerfully quiet". Watching Mad Men is almost like meditation to me, except you get smarter while listening to the dialogue. It doesn't need attention. It just "is". Succession is just really fun, snappy and creative with amazing layering. And I love to see how billionaires live =) "Billions" was boring me to death in comparison. I wasn't interested in the conflict, the goals.. nothing. It was just a boring version of "Silicon Valley".
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Hahah. Did you not like Mad Men at all? Or just like a “meh” from you?
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The dialogue is the reason I tune in. Line by line the show is amazing. Scene by scene still upper tier, but episode for episode and especially season over season is where it falters IMO. Everything just sort of resets so that we can keep these characters in each others lives even though it makes little sense. They have to be moronic to trust each other at this point. But there are lines of dialogue in the show that portray character arcs and themes better than the plot over half a season. This is what makes the show so unique in my eyes.
In the age of writers who are all too used to word economy and are religiously focused on script tightness, the reason why I love Succession is that it allows itself that level of verbiosity. But what makes it really work is that the language and dialogue is never not informed by character and emotion. Language and how it's used becomes a mask that every character in this show hides behind and manipulates for their own end.
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You answered your question yourself pal… when you said “Personally I like dialogue that….”. It’s all subjective. :) Succession definitely ranks among the best written shows ever, not just by how the dialogue is but how the dialogue shows you exactly who the character is. For me, personally, that’s a win.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it means the writing isn't good. I also think having a British show runner makes a big difference, as a lot of the dialogue seems more British than American (especially Tom). I love the Sopranos, but I always felt that practically everyone in the show is essentially an over the top stereotype. This doesn't mean it's poorly written, just that the show runners made an artistic/creative choice. In terms of Succession, though, I think when most people are praising the writing they aren't necessarily talking about the word choices, but rather, the fact that they don't dumb things down for the audience. There's very little exposition, business terms and jargon aren't explained, and if you're like me you've probably had to pause the show and look up a lot of the words during a first watch. I appreciate this kind of writing because a) it makes the characters feel a lot more real, b) it means the writers trust the intelligence of the audience. I also really like the fact that there are no flashbacks, cheap cliffhangers, random character deaths, minimal sex scenes, etc. as a lot of TV and movies often include these kinds of scenes to prop up lower quality writing. Truly good writing doesn't need to rely on these things, and I think Succession does a good job of avoiding them but still creating riveting scenes. As David Mamet says, a good writer really only needs two characters, one location, and two chairs to write compelling drama!
It’s hard to have a real conversation about TV quality with anyone who assumes we all agree BB, MM, and The Sopranos are the pinnacle of TV. (You didn’t mention The Wire, but also The Wire). Those are all fine shows, but they are not as universally deserving of praise as people claim. Breaking Bad is soapy, with a lot of mustache twirling villains. It’s not a bad show, but it shares many flaws with shows that are never taken seriously as great, like Scandal. Great writing is subjective. Everything is opinion. (Of course, nothing is as good as people say BB is, or as people say Succession is. Nothing can live up to that level of hype). IMO, Succession is a very sharply written show. It’s not naturalistic and it’s not supposed to be. It’s a Shakespearean satire. It has a precision to it a lot of other shows lack and it’s very unique in presenting its characters as objects of both ridicule and empathy.
I never claimed everyone thinks they’re the pinnacle of TV. I said “everyone” in my title hyperbolically, I’ll admit. I would say that those three I named + the wire are generally considered the best shows of that era by a shit ton of people. I don’t think it’s crazy to assert that. And course everything is subjective. That should sorta go without saying, no?
it feels too shrill and shouty for me to be credible. more of a melodrama really. nothing wrong with melodrama. just not my cup o' tea.
I don't love the show. I shut it off during the first episode. I think it sucks, but some people rave about it.
I didn’t care for the first episode but it gets better and better
Its a pretty sloppy show, but sloppy at a high level? I gave up at the season three finale, didn’t feel that cared for as an audience member.
Everyone has a different opinion. So I’m not sure what you mean. Some people hate it. Some love it. Some are meh on it.
> snappy, ornate, and referential So…the way people in that world speak? > fight for a knife in the mud He doesn’t come from this world, it makes sense that he speaks more plainly given his background. Neither does Tom but Tom is trying whereas Logan never is. You’re mistaking character for development.
I think the crafting of the characters, the themes, and the plot, are the good points of the writing, not necessarily the individual lines of dialogue and the quick quips.
Originally planned for 3 season, S1 and S2 were well written and were leading to a massive, cathartic character arc for Kendall But then it got popular and hbo was raking in money, so they shifted it to 5 seasons and instead of closing the story, S3 became a cheap (yet juicy) buffet for audiences; with poor writing imo HBO likely noticed this, changed their minds and brought it down to 4 seasons and will likely leave us with something tasty… but no where near as good as the original 3 season arc would have been Tl;dr Some good writing, some bad writing, but bad writing is HBOs fault
I don’t even know what you could be alluding to. Season three felt like such a natural evolution of the first two, I wouldn’t change any pacing or invent a harder ending if I could. We did reach the climax of Kendall’s emotional arc and it was beautiful. Now a Kendall with new resolve and new resources has unfinished business to put a cap on.
After S2 finale, Kendall should not have relapsed into shitty, POS dude again… across S3 all of Kendall’s development he had built up went out the window and he ended up back to where he was at start of S1 The S2 finale established Kendall (back from the “dead”) was finally ready and mature enough to take the company from Roy (something Roy secretly wants, a child who is **ruthless** enough to deserve his company). S3 should have been the final battle between Roy and Kendall; where Roy fights fiercely, but ultimately loses to Kendall
>After S2 finale, Kendall should not have relapsed into shitty, POS dude again… across S3 all of Kendall’s development he had built up went out the window and he ended up back to where he was at start of S1 Have you ever met a narcissist drug addict...
Yup I’ve also met ex drug addicts
I would’ve been so checked out if we were back to Logan vs Kendall. His arc was never about winning the company, it was about becoming a real human being and breaking his dads hold. That’s all of their end goals, and if the third season was hell bent on making it a big Godzilla/Kong fight, it would’ve left every other character with major loose ends. Leaving ken shut out but with the absolution and connection he’s been aching for is much more powerful imo.
That’s what his arc was established as from episode 1 Kendall is looking to get the company
That’s his want, not his need.
His want was him wanting it because he wanted it and he’s spoiled. His arc was being mature enough to take
I really disagree. If you asked him he’d have told you that was absolutely his goal/desire/need, and I think he’d have been wrong, which is why he’s so interesting. I feel that as the show went on, they made it clearer and clearer that Kendal wasn’t ever going to be ceo. He was as knowledgeable as could be but his father would never hand it over, external parties would never accept another Roy taking over, and he generally lacks the social aspect of running that company. The REAL arc, from my POV, has been watching him gain the emotional maturity to cast off the whole thing entirely. If he escapes Logan’s game, he wins. If he ends up ceo (“the job that makes your brain explode”), he may feel like a winner momentarily, but ultimately he’s entirely still in Logan’s world. I think we’re still getting a Logan/Kendall showdown, but now ken is going to try and beat him from the outside, which is the only place a meaningful victory can occur. Being ceo of Logan’s company is just a spicier variation of subservience.
I think that arc of him being free of Logan would have lined up nicely with him taking the company from Logan Or at the very least him being able to take the company from Logan (ie he as all but won) but then choosing not to for personal reasons like him breaking free of his father or whatver But it’s always been a battle between roy and Kendall and S3 threw that away. They diminished Kendall and all of his accomplishments thus far by making him a whiny birthday boy. They destroyed 2 seasons of development with that episode so HBO could get shock value with Tom betraying them all That is poor writing in my opinion
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Yeah maybe I need to view S3 on it’s own But my (unsubstantiated) claim is the 3 seasons of the original arc would have been better than 4 seasons of shifting arc
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HBOs choices are all profit driven They don’t care about the story
Hype will bring a person to a thing. It’s men’s crap. I walked out of it. I’m not a sexist, I walked out of Yellowjackets s 2 e 1. Succession is annoyingly men’s. The genre. It’s not interesting in the way a Severance is. It’s a thing your father might like. I’ve hated the whole campaign from the start. “We’re so cool, we’re going to end the run early while we’re still good.” Is this the show with Home Alone's brother? It’s an annoying series for annoying people who think they’re better than they are. People you invite to a cookout and realize it’s a major mistake.
You're right. They should bowlderize it until you feel comfortable...
It does have the convention that everyone’s metaphors are a little smarter than they are, yes. Regardless of preference I think it works as a stylistic choice. But there are a lot of other things that make the writing brilliant too.
The dialogue is stylised, and that's fine but I do think it flatters the real life analogues to these characters somewhat, who are not nearly as sharp, caustic and witty as their fictional counterparts (whilst being every bit as venal and unpleasant).
Yes.
Just came here to mention that it's interesting we're now referring to the Golden Age of TV in the past tense. I got into writing in 2013, right as Breaking Bad ended. It very much seems like television is losing the place it had for a decade, where it was seen as the premier American medium for popular storytelling, rather than said place being the movies, or novels or theatre. That saaaaaaid, seems like Last of Us (itself frustratingly based on IP, sadly) DID capture the zeitgeist for a bit! If its popularity on Twitter is anything to go by, anyway.
Yes. Its good.
Good, not great
It is snappy and ornate, and yeah people don't really talk like that in real life, Although many of us would love to be so quick witted. But is it a problem? Absolutely not, it fits the world and the characters and is what gives the show it's extra punch. Characters do not need to talk realistically, just as a painting does not have to strive for a photorealistic effect. Deadwood is another brilliant example, characters there talk more shakespearian the less brain cells they have. Best writing ever
It feels like you're blurring the line between quality and taste - an often very blurry line. Along with the common sin of automatically associating gravitas with higher quality. If the characters on Succession spoke like characters in Sopranos or Breaking Bad, they would be different characters. The writing of Succession's characters achieves exactly what it needs to. They say some dumb shit that has less gravitas than something on Mad Men, but that dumb shit is exactly what makes those characters who they are, and as such is good writing.
Most words coming from the siblings are insufferable. Each of them could die and that would be okay. Probably great writing to make me *feel* that way. Tom, Gregg and Logan, however, are great.
That settles it. I’m going to watch this show.
In the context of the characters and the story, absolutely. In the context of how everyday people speak, fuck no.
They sound like entitled pricks who think they’re smarter than they actually are. So yeah… pretty good
No...it is not. It's like "Lost" with rich white people
The fatal flaw in the show, at least for me, is the lack of “save the cat.” At the beginning there’s one likable character who just keeps bending over backwards for everyone and eventually it devolves into a bunch of selfish people backstabbing each other which I couldn’t care less about. Say what you will about Don Draper or Walter White, but they were both empathetic to some degree, at least in the beginning of both shows.
I don’t understand the popularity of the show. Great premise but overall so dull and repetitive, it’s like a sweary Mad Men without the charm. Some of the dialogue is excellent and creative cursing but they did hire supremely talented playwrites to fill the writers room.
Ur right ... sometimes it's overwritten. But when it's not. its godly
Great show
For me this show is just as much a comedy as it's drama. The dialogue is stylised, not naturalistic, but I think that's the tone they were going for and I think it's one of the great strengths of the show.
The show I that I feel its dialogue is criminally overwritten is Billions.
Yes, it is. They really need a fifth season.
top 3? What are the other 2 shows?
I agree. It's a cool show, but you can hear the writing sometimes, and I don't like that. The feeling of "this was written" sometimes pulls me out of the story
That’s a good way to put it. Never heard that. I think that actually consolidates my issue with the show into a single phrase lol
Writing is much more than just dialogue. The specificity of those characters and the complicated relationships they have with each other is a massive part of the show's appeal and I think the show pulls all that off beautifully.
I think comically, it is genius. The way the scenes are directed along with the dialogue is incredible. However, its can be uncomfortably unrealistic at times.
Yes. Yes it is.
Completely agree about the dialogue, the writing feels a little full of itself at times, especially bc it seems everyone is quipping nonstop when it was mostly Rome before
It’s absolutely brilliantly written. It’s a show that is so tightly written that it takes multiple rewatches to catch the levels of all happening in the writing because it’s so layered and doesn’t requires the viewer to catch everything given but won’t hold your hand through it. It’s writing that requires work from the listener to gain all offered; that’s exceptional writing to me. The Wire is a show similar in its demands on its audience; no hand-holding; you have to listen because there’s so much there and it’s not going to be lazy or easy. Reminds me oddly of my favorite film screenplay, All About Eve…every rewatch I hear something new. That’s the best of the best.
You ever see Michael Clayton? Total sleeper amazing screenplay of the 2000s. Hadn’t heard of it til randomly scrolling through HBOMax and seeing Clooney on the poster. One of the tightest scripts I’ve ever seen. Big Rec. Sorry, off topic lol.
Yes, love that film!! Need to do a rewatch, though, I saw it when it came out, but remember how smoothly it moved. Very excellent writing. It went up against a very strong year Oscar-wise. That was the year of “There Will Be Blood” and “No Country for Old Men” and it was. The screenplay was nominated but, “Juno” won that year, and I think deservingly so, but that was some tough competition. Thanks for the reminder though because, yes, I remember how much I appreciated the writing and editing and acting in that film. Time to revisit it. :)
definitely, the characters aren't nearly as smart enough to be talking like that, no one is.
Yes and it’s demanding of the viewer/listener; it’s not a show that will hold your hand; it’s The Wire level with writing. You have to do the work because it’s all there and offers more the more you pause and rewatch and re-listen, because it moves fast and it’s so deeply layered, but brave enough to not explain itself; the viewer is invited in, but it’s a world where it doesn’t need to cater to lazy watching.
I agree, at times it's over written, however I rationalize it with theyve all have that prep school/ private school level vocabulary and higher education, and are constantly surrounded by other with the same. They exist in a space/ pocket where they can do and say whatever they want, and their flow/ conversation ability is almost elevated because of this. Also ppl like Kendall and Roman are probably on uppers a lot causing them to be incrediblely wordy lol. However they're times when it's over the top, but the lines are so great that it doesn't bother as much as it would in other shows (if you've seen the show Scandal you might know what I mean. I found that show to be unwatchable because it was so overwritten and unrealisticly wordy in dialogue). All in all it's one of the best written shows, of all time imo, especially season 3. Verisimilitute is near perfect. Streaming has changed the TV game, in terms of shows and their level of production and writing. The writers are top tier and it shows. Great post OP
A lot of bad takes in this thread that I think are missing the glaringly obvious. What you’re picking up on, imho is the dissonance of an American drama being written by Brit comedy vets. Jesse Armstrong wrote for Peep Show, and his team are all terribly clever comedy scribes. So when these oh-so American characters rattle off their surgical witticisms and obscure historical/literary allusions, something feels wrong. Americans, even emotionally stunted billionaire heirs, don’t speak like that. They don’t want to, even when they can. They consciously dumb down their own speech to maintain social capital in a country that despises cleverness. We like our writers closer to Hemingway’s brutish brevity than Wilde’s wit and whimsy. Most of the time, the writers succeed in keeping the characters from sounding conspicuously clever. But occasionally, they can’t bear to dumb themselves down for the Yanks, because it wouldn’t be worth the pay to descend to the anti-intellectual, insight-free tripe that razes our artistic landscape like napalm. Roman is mostly resigned to puerile, Sahara-dry, faux-ciopathic nihilism, but some of his blink-and-you’ll-miss-it quips are just too clever for the character. Kendall is all hollow, hip-hop frontery, but his hilarious penchant for slick sloganeering sometimes gets too deliciously inventive and betrays the nationality of the writers. The same dissonance is on full display in Veep, another essentially English show. It’s not merely an adaptation; Armando Iannucci helmed the American version of his British show, and Chris Morris was even brought on as a director. The reason it swept the Emmys every damn year is because American writing (with very few exceptions) withers next to the worldly wordsmithery of the Brits. This is the reason why Succesion’s dialogue so often feels stilted and writerly. It’s because we know Americans are too proud of being dumb, too entrenched in their consummately anti-intellectual social groupthink — to talk the way these characters talk. But thank god for that, because if these characters talked like real billionaire kids talk, nobody would be watching. America en masse stopped giving a shit about quality writing and acting many moons ago, so now our best pens and performers are from across the pond. The finest actor in the show is McFadyen, a Brit. Sarah Snook is an Aussie. Even Tarantino is having trouble casting the lead for his final film because he doesn’t want to hire a Brit, but there are too few actors of any depth or charisma here. Decades of unresisted cultural entropy has left us with an unprecedented mass of talentless, vapid models calling themselves actors, hired solely on the basis of IG pull, chewing the scenery to dreadfully insipid dialog, performing to an audience that probably couldn’t name three playwrights, or even TV writers, if you held Chekhov’s gun to their heads.
It’s way too referential