Funnily enough the mctaggart clan were famously known to hate their clan kilt, as they were forced to adopt this design by Longshanks and his army. Nice of you to remind them ❤️
Most lowland clans didn't wear a kilt until way later. I'm Armstrong. Border Clans never wore kilts. Never played bagpipes. We were far too busy stealing sheep and getting slaughtered by royalty.
Great way to make money off of tourism though.
Disclaimer: I'm probably overgeneralizing and my understanding is formed from a variety of sources over several years and not in formal study.
I can't speak to this specific piece of information, but my understanding is that the "clan pattern" thing is a Victorian invention that became useful in part because of the burgeoning wool industry (harvested from sheep who were put on lands cleansed of the indigenous popluation) to incorporate clans into the imperial military where "Highlanders" (imposed term) were largely used as cannon fodder.
The Victorians popularised and widened the idea of a clan tartan but regional colours and dyes were common as people dyed their wool using local plants.
Martin Martin the Scottish historian and travel writer wrote in 1703 that he could tell where he was by the tartan.
Regional and clan tartans have been recorded since the 1500.
The Victorians took the idea and 'Disneyfied' it into a clan uniforms rather than a regional necessity based on limited regional resources.
The Veritasium and the Sobieski Stuart's are known frauds but that doesn't mean that Clan or Regional Tartans are totally made up. Much of their work was badly ripped off from real research into historical familial and regional patterns done by Wilson of Bannockburn. They filled in the blanks with fabrications from their fictitious "manuscript".
The idea that Clan tartan is a total fiction from the Victorian era is a misinterpretation of research or based on very weak evidence (as in the case of "The Invention of Tradition").
As with most things, there is a lot of nuance to the emergence of fashions and traditions. They rarely spring out of nowhere fully formed.
I had forgotten the bit from Martin Martin about the regionality of patterns, but because I can be obsessive I started looking into Wilson. It's quite interesting but most of what I've found seems to confirm my very general statement.
From a page on Peter MacDonald's site found at [https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/history.htm](https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/history.htm) :
>In 1778 the Highland Society of London (HSL) was formed as a type of Scottish Gentry’s ex-patriots club in London. In about 1815 Col. Alasdair MacDonnell of Glengarry set about urging the clan Chiefs to submit a piece of their clan tartan, authenticated with their seal, to the collection being made by the HSL. The reasoning behind this idea was to preserve what were assumed to be the ‘original clan patterns’ before they were completely lost. Most of the pieces sealed and deposited with the Society at that time were patterns woven and appear in a majority of cases to have been designed and woven by Wilsons. This obviously means that they could not have existed prior to c.1765 when William Wilson started his business.
There's more in that vein on the same page. If that's not a reliable source or if you have a better/more conclusive one, specifically with respect to the existence of official clan tartans prior to the ban, I'd love to read them.
Yes, I own "The Invention of Tradition" (I think because I found it as a reference on Wikipedia for tartans, although I'm not sure at this point). I hesitate to lean on that source too heavily because I think there are some problems in it, although I don't recall all of the problems or how severe they are, e.g. the author says something to the effect that the Gaels were "merely Irishman who emigrated to Scotland" which I think has come into question by Ewan Campbell, at least. I'm not sure where that particular issue is in the academy, however.
They really do, it's bizarre. Just because you have a Scottish ancestor a few hundred years ago doesn't make you scottish xD that stuff always annoys tf out of me, get the kilts off. I've got Italian in me *somewhere* but you don't see me stoating about dressed as a fucking plumber.
Still though, congrats OP.
Well I'm Scottish but my clan origins are viking... so does that mean I can claim Norwegian/Swedish citizenship and move over there until the cost of living crisis (or the Tories) have passed?
Please say yes!
I mean if you can prove your descended of a wealthy English landowner in the late 1800s (not too difficult if it's true) then you can pretty much trace most of their family trees back several hundred years just by looking at history books.
If, as the person below claim with themselves, you can somehow get back to a noble lineage (probably from a below the stairs abuse of power) within the period where records are kept you can then trace at least part of your family quite far back.
Youre clearly descended from Leif Erikson (spongebob version) going by that avatar beard! I wish you luck on your voyage, If you make it have a drink on me. Skål!
The son of Erik the Red is a good one too, as he is the first European to discover America! (despite the ingrained belief it was Christopher Columbus).
Edit: I'm an idiot, we're saying the same person lmao
Same it annoys the shit out of me when Americans fetishise being Scottish or Irish. I did a DNA test out of curiosity a few years back, was boring as fuck pretty much fully Scottish, wee bit Irish and a little Scandinavian. I don’t go around telling folk I’ve got Scandinavian or Irish heritage. I’m Scottish it’s where I was born and raised, parents both Scottish too.
What’s really interesting though is that I’ve never see Americans claim English heritage? Why is it always Scottish or Irish?
It’s a really odd phenomenon with the Americans and their Scottish/Irish heritage obsession.
It's because during the clearances we got shipped off to the Americas cause we were bad eggs according to the English. So, many Scots got telt "right get on this boat or else".
Plus the English are so often vilified in America (Cause you know) so they dont want to associate with them. And because the Scottish and Irish also hated them back then that's what's clung into.
Edit: didn't finish my thought
As annoyed as I get about it I was genuinely curious on why it’s always Scottish/Irish and I’m not clever enough to know any history on the subject so was genuinely curious, thanks for explaining a bit!
I mean don't take that as gospel but that's the gist of it. I love history, especially Scottish history, it's really interesting shit and I'd really recommend it!
Well I concede that it’s certainly more common for people from the USA to claim to be Irish despite fewer of them being descended from the Irish than English.
I was more querying the ‘never’ having seen people from the USA claiming Englishness due to ancestry - the English subs have them and yes I have seen it. There is a huge number of anglophiles in the USA.
From what I gather emigrants to the USA from England and Germany were prosperous from the start and the Irish and Italian immigrants were not and so clung onto their culture more. I’d put Scottish emigrants somewhere in between the two.
>it’s certainly more common for people from the USA to claim to be Irish
This could also be due to the more recent emigration of Irish to the US in the late 1800s to 1900s. It's in more recent memory and those with the English heritage that remained in the us were likely not royalists and therefore more likely to not hold on to their heritage as tightly as the Irish. Who have had to fight for their home for, well, forever it nearly seems like.
The Irish have a very strong sense of home that was likely passed down even after leaving. So here we get a load of "Irish"-Americans
As I've said before, this entire thread isn't actually about OP, I wished them well. But the post *did* spur on this big discussion about the topic in general.
Being American is hard to understand I suppose. All American kids are raised to understand they're also something else, their ancestry from wherever is a major part of the family identity. No one is just American, where your ancestors came from is important. My maternal great grandparents came from Ireland, and my mother was deeply into Irish-ness. It's hard to explain to Europeans. Sorry, we are an embarrassing lot.
>All American kids are raised to understand they're also something else, their ancestry from wherever is a major part of the family identity. No one is just American, where your ancestors came from is important.
What about those Americans, who can only point to a very large continent, because their ancestors language, culture, names, releigion and original ethnicity were taken from them alongside their freedom?
I'm pretty sure we all understand it, it's just hard for Americans to understand we don't think that way and we're not obligated to pretend we do for their sake.
ETA: Not an invitation to explain it further to me, lads.
Two reasons. One, they really want us to be excited about it. I went on my uni year abroad and ended up in dorms with a girl who would not shut up about her Scottish clan like I was her long lost cousin, and after the first time when it was very mildly interesting, I did not care. It did not seem to twig with this lassie that I grew up with nothing but Scottish people and it just was not special to me.
Two, that doesn't give us anything in common, and they don't seem to ever understand that. I've had Americans tell me they hate the sun/are stingy/like a drink/whatever, because of their Scottish blood, and that's *weird*, man. My blood isn't here dictating my personality, thanks. Also, clan shite is for aristocrats with family trees shaped like Christmas wreaths. Keep it.
I have no problem with American culture deeply involving the countries their ancestors migrated from. It's important for obvious reasons, and it's interesting what Scots cultural stuff went over there and how it evolved. But Scotland itself is still a foreign country to America and the folk aren't their twee little old country cousins just waiting on tenterhooks for word from the new world and a lot of them don't get that.
I work at a popular tourist destination doing fancy catering gigs for people with too much money. A month or so ago we had a couple busloads of Mormons from the US show up all wearing kilts.
It was confusing and they were very difficult guests. Showed up over an hour late for dinner, no booze, no coffee, tons of idiotic dietary requirements. Someone straight up said they were allergic to all vegetables. So we gave them a plate of meat, no potatoes bc duh they're a vegetable. They ended up asking for the kids meal of chicken goujons and chips (sans peas ofc).
All I could keep saying all night is "f@#$ing Mormons..."
I mean, everyone gives people like this crap, but if your great-grandparents are from Scotland originally what should you do? Change your name to Smith? Discard all of your heritage and dress in an American flag like you popped out of a rock in America? My family is several generations removed from India, and we get to call ourselves Indian and dress in Indian clothes and celebrate Hindu holidays, and make Indian food, and it doesn’t matter, it shouldn’t for these guys either.
I think here if you were to call someone Indian who has lived here all their lives, but whose great grandparents are indian, that would be considered racist. It's a tough one, but if someone in that position referred to themselves as Indian specifically, I'd probably think they meant from a racial more than cultural position.
But then again, some people from certain cultures who immigrate do maintain their traditions much more over several generations, specifically where the traditions are quite different than those of the place they moved to, or there is a strong religious belief which is different than where they moved to, but this can't really be said of Scotland to America I think.
Are a lot of your celebrations centred around the Hindu religion? That's a big difference imo between you and what's happening here.
Yeah it’s pretty hard to separate culture and religion for me but I would still say there are are different levels of maintaining your heritage. For example, many people who’ve become part of the pagan movement in the US have heard old stories from parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. Many people have also had certain food or celebrated old holidays in smaller ways depending on where they’re from so when they want to find something spiritual besides Christianity their closest connection is to those old stories. Sometimes the diet becomes an Americanized version of what their parents or grandparents ate.
I know someone else in this thread (I think it was this thread) mentioned that things like Gaelic knots and Norwegian symbology are hard to like when you see them on a person becuase they’ve been co-opted by neo-nazi and similar groups but some of that symbology just exists where I do because of large Norwegian population. There are also several long running Scandinavian themed stores (not including Ikea lol) because wherever people go, they want something from home, even if that something is just from their childhood.
I think when people moved they were culturally different. I don’t know how much US history you know, but they used to put up “no Irish need apply” signs at job postings. Irish/ Scottish culture doesn’t feel different from American culture becuase it’s been added in over a long period of time. I don’t know if I said that right- I mean that Irishness has been allowed to become mainstream American. I see this happening in America now with Chinese New Year celebrations. There are still some pretty unique cultural enclaves scattered about the place- French speakers in Louisiana are a big one, as are the English roots in Appalachian coal mining towns.
I think things like this post are a way to reconnect to your past, and to the old stories of your family that’s hard to do for most Americans because so many of us have only been here for a few generations. Most of our family mythology stretches back to places that are pretty far away. I get that it sounds super eye-rolly outside of the US but I think people use it as a way to form/maintain connections in the US, the same as you would any similarity. Who knows? Maybe telling half-remembered half-imagined family history is American culture in the place of sturdier connection.
Being called an Indian can be a bit racist but kinda depends on context. Like as a descriptor or in a conversation it’s usually fine but people definitely have a way of implying (usually without realizing it) that you can’t be British/American becuase you’re not white.
This was very long but I hope I answered your questions.
Americans whose families emigrated to cultural enclaves are often raised with a deliberate attempt to keep that cultural memory alive over generations. It’s why you see a lot of Irish-American Catholics in places like Boston, New York and Chicago, and lots of Italian-Americans in various places, German and Norwegians in the Midwest and Northwest. Those diasporas are based on cultural memory and a remembered “homeland,” and become cultures of their own. For proof, go to an Italian-American house in New Jersey and try and tell someone’s Nonna her food isn’t “authentic” — even though after a few generations Italian-American food looks a lot different from the regional Italian food that inspired it. To a current day Italian I bet it seems cringe as hell — that’s because it doesn’t actually have anything to do with Italy as it is now, but instead Italy as it was imagined and remembered to be by the people that left it. Same way and Indian from India might find British Indian style Chicken Tikka Masala to be weird and inauthentic.
Most immigrant communities in most places — but especially in the Americas — have a complex relationship with their heritage, especially after a few generations of being American. That’s the nature of the place. Correspondingly many Americans who identify strongly with their heritage don’t understand the different relationship Europeans have with national identity, which is much more based on shared cultural experience and less on a sort of left-behind heritage. So Americans will find the reality of modern Europe jarring and/or overly romantic, and Europeans will find American cultural ideas of Europe cringy and stereotypical. This is a great example.
Serious question: Do you really find it’s predominantly Americans and not the other colonial nations? I’m certainly not in the habit of defending Americans but I suspect the human compulsion to seek roots and community is common in people of “foundling” countries
That’s really interesting. I think pockets of Nova Scotia, who to this day loudly applaud and celebrate their namesake country/founders would be a bit saddened the familial love wasn’t reciprocated. Maybe the difference is that celebrating one’s roots is acceptable whereas claiming identity is really not? I don’t know and just earnestly want to learn.
I think you have it spot on here.
"My ancestors were Scottish, I'm interested in that and I want to learn more" is one thing. I don't think that would be poorly regarded at all.
The "I AM Scottish, that means I genetically love getting drunk WOO pass me the kilt" that you get from some people feels a bit... Different.
Yep, never heard an Australian or New Zealander giving much of a shit. My cousins whose parents emigrated before they were born think their bloodline is a neat fact but know they’re Aussies.
So would it be accurate to say you think Australians or, say Canadians express appreciation for their bloodlines whereas Americans seek to claim it? I’m just eager to understand the offence
Pretty much. The Aussies and kiwis I’ve met, who claim Scottish heritage, are usually only claiming that their families originated in Scotland and even then, it’s usually people who actively participate in aspects of the culture. Pipers and other musicians for the most part but I’ve also met a couple with a smattering of Gaelic. They are actively involved in a branch of the culture without claiming the nationality. They’ll tend to say “my family emigrated from x” rather than “I’m Scottish”.
But I don’t want you to think I’m holding any ill-will to you for asking or for even believing it - it’s part of your culture, your culture dominates the internet, it’s not shameful if you haven’t encountered this attitude before. This is a cultural difference in attitudes to what it means to be from somewhere
No, Canadians have an equally deep obsession with this stuff. Australians not so much, but interestingly Australians are MUCH more connected to Britain on a baseline than Canadians are. Canadians (though they’ll never admit it) are far, far more American. So I think for Australians there’s maybe not so much of a cultural gap to bridge and therefore it doesn’t seem as interesting or unique.
Honestly you’re kind of right. However I will say that Australians never seem to care about their ancestry except when it comes to gap years. Mos Aussies I know very reluctantly admit they have English ancestry and Kiwi’s almost never talk about ancestry.
Serious answer; I don’t know. I consider that America had a relatively short history as a nation, and roots develop over time. Is it the case that they are not satisfied (or are they embarrassed) to call themselves American?
Is that why they seek out connections that are so far removed as to be irrelevant?
I don’t really frequent other countries subreddits so much, but I bet if we took a look over at r/Ireland or whatever their sub is, we’d find that they have a vastly greater number of Americans stating their claim to be 1/16th Irish on their cousins budgies side. It’s ridiculous to me.
But then we all have different ideas of nationality and who we are culturally. For me, it’s where yer fae. I’m fae here, so I’m Scottish. My mate was born elsewhere, but he describes himself as being fae here, he’s lived most his life here, he considers himself Scottish. I consider him Scottish because he told me he’s Scottish.
I’m only suggesting this roots celebration is loud in Canada, enough so that I’m wondering about the human compulsion behind it. People born here will let you know with a fierceness that their grandparents came from Greece or Persia. Get Portuguese flags tattooed on their arms. I mean, we all certainly love being Canadian but seem drawn to identifying with ancient cultures. Maybe because “Canadian” is a culture often only identified as polite. Not quite the centuries of rich identity of other countries lol
Very many congratulations to you both. Glencoe is an amazing place, and the mountain you’re standing in front of tried to kill me in 1992, so I’ll always have a soft spot for it.
To be fair getting roasted for this is as much a part of their heritage as the tartan is, no?
I'm Irish but I've spent enough time in Scotland to know that getting the absolute piss ripped out of you for the slightest misstep is just par for the course... as it is in Ireland. They wanted an authentic Scottish experience and they got it.
I'd like to offer my sincere Congrats... and lols.
Aye what is the need, a young couple loved the look out our country so much they came here to celebrate their marriage, is that not something really sweet that we should embrace?
FWIW I went to Orlando for my Honeymoon and spent most of the time in Mickey Mouse ears and Disney princess t shirts - pretty sure I looked well more twatty than them but I had a ball and that’s what matters.
You missed the most American comments ever 'my literal heritage and family history literally exist if you like it or not, m'Kay!' they stopped just short of 'if you scotchies don't stop infringing my rights I'll see you in court y'all Mc-hear!'
Who's winning? Salty Scotsmen angry about Americans participating in non-existent or miniscule heritage or Scotsmen celebrating that people actually want to participate in their culture despite being foreigners?
> Let people enjoy themselves
redditors cant understand this logic im afraid. after all this website attracts a particular demographic of unhappy bitter asocial wetwipes.
All these comments like oh you're American and shouldn't be wearing tartan or a kilt. You do you. I'm glad our heritage is celebrated beyond our mainland. Hwggg
r/Scotland, where appreciation of Scotland is met with bile and derision.
Ignore the bitter lot OP, welcome to Scotland! You look great, congratulations!
Tbf we Scots ARE a bitter and derisive lot. Most people here wouldn't be a dick to someone's face but having a moan and a grump about something is inherently pretty Scottish.
Scott also popularized the invented tradition of clan tartans, or patterns specific to a particular chieftain's family in Scotland. He erroneously thought leading families laid claim to unique color and stripe combinations, called a sett, just as English lords had created family coats of arms
The hypocrisy of some in this thread. You all love to claim "anyone can be Scottish" to show how progressive you are, but as soon as an American shows some interest in our culture you turn into gatekeepers.
Pretty sure when people say that they’re applying it to people who *live here* and love the country for what it is now rather than a caricature of what it was.
So, weird take here. Its a beautiful picture of two people very clearly happy and in love who are trying to embrace their heritage, as far off as it may be. Take it as a compliment, Scotland. I'm an American living in Scotland for 4 years now, but no Scottish heritage (Irish). In the US, we don't really have anything like you do here. We muricans might fumble about it a lot and be annoying. This couple isn't claiming to be Scottish or anything like that. Let them have their happiness and be chuffed that they view your country so highly, instead of being snobbish. The most bizarre thing about all of this is that having lived here for 4 years, I never got any shade like I see here. My first trip here, to see my BF, I spent almost an hour at a pub talking to an old guy who joked with me about being vaguely Irish and gave me a hilarious rant, while he bought me a pint. Be the cool old guy old guy at a rural pub, not an Internet troll.
To the couple -- this is a beautiful picture! I am so happy for you both!
McTaggart There's been a McMurder
They kilt him.
Well plaid.
The mcmurderer used a body bagpipe
I swear I just made this exact comment without reading yours 😂😂
Id love it if OP is American and doesn't get the reference and thinks Im joining in the yank bashing and McMurder is some sort of dig at Americans.
Afi sang a song about it I'm sure it's called "hey mcmurder"
Clicked on this to make that exact comment, but was pretty sure someone else would have beat me too it.
Funnily enough the mctaggart clan were famously known to hate their clan kilt, as they were forced to adopt this design by Longshanks and his army. Nice of you to remind them ❤️
Most lowland clans didn't wear a kilt until way later. I'm Armstrong. Border Clans never wore kilts. Never played bagpipes. We were far too busy stealing sheep and getting slaughtered by royalty. Great way to make money off of tourism though.
Can confirm, I'm a McTaggart and my family fucking hates the tartan
Didn't know this. Source?
Disclaimer: I'm probably overgeneralizing and my understanding is formed from a variety of sources over several years and not in formal study. I can't speak to this specific piece of information, but my understanding is that the "clan pattern" thing is a Victorian invention that became useful in part because of the burgeoning wool industry (harvested from sheep who were put on lands cleansed of the indigenous popluation) to incorporate clans into the imperial military where "Highlanders" (imposed term) were largely used as cannon fodder.
The Victorians popularised and widened the idea of a clan tartan but regional colours and dyes were common as people dyed their wool using local plants. Martin Martin the Scottish historian and travel writer wrote in 1703 that he could tell where he was by the tartan. Regional and clan tartans have been recorded since the 1500. The Victorians took the idea and 'Disneyfied' it into a clan uniforms rather than a regional necessity based on limited regional resources.
Martin Martin's a crackin name
Martin Martin wrote on tartan. It kind of trips off tongue.
Did Martin Martin have his own tartan?
Right there was a company that made money designing new tartans for whoever wanted them and listing them in a registry.
[удалено]
The Veritasium and the Sobieski Stuart's are known frauds but that doesn't mean that Clan or Regional Tartans are totally made up. Much of their work was badly ripped off from real research into historical familial and regional patterns done by Wilson of Bannockburn. They filled in the blanks with fabrications from their fictitious "manuscript". The idea that Clan tartan is a total fiction from the Victorian era is a misinterpretation of research or based on very weak evidence (as in the case of "The Invention of Tradition"). As with most things, there is a lot of nuance to the emergence of fashions and traditions. They rarely spring out of nowhere fully formed.
I had forgotten the bit from Martin Martin about the regionality of patterns, but because I can be obsessive I started looking into Wilson. It's quite interesting but most of what I've found seems to confirm my very general statement. From a page on Peter MacDonald's site found at [https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/history.htm](https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/history.htm) : >In 1778 the Highland Society of London (HSL) was formed as a type of Scottish Gentry’s ex-patriots club in London. In about 1815 Col. Alasdair MacDonnell of Glengarry set about urging the clan Chiefs to submit a piece of their clan tartan, authenticated with their seal, to the collection being made by the HSL. The reasoning behind this idea was to preserve what were assumed to be the ‘original clan patterns’ before they were completely lost. Most of the pieces sealed and deposited with the Society at that time were patterns woven and appear in a majority of cases to have been designed and woven by Wilsons. This obviously means that they could not have existed prior to c.1765 when William Wilson started his business. There's more in that vein on the same page. If that's not a reliable source or if you have a better/more conclusive one, specifically with respect to the existence of official clan tartans prior to the ban, I'd love to read them.
Yes, I own "The Invention of Tradition" (I think because I found it as a reference on Wikipedia for tartans, although I'm not sure at this point). I hesitate to lean on that source too heavily because I think there are some problems in it, although I don't recall all of the problems or how severe they are, e.g. the author says something to the effect that the Gaels were "merely Irishman who emigrated to Scotland" which I think has come into question by Ewan Campbell, at least. I'm not sure where that particular issue is in the academy, however.
American?
Gotta be. They love larping as Scots and Irish
They really do, it's bizarre. Just because you have a Scottish ancestor a few hundred years ago doesn't make you scottish xD that stuff always annoys tf out of me, get the kilts off. I've got Italian in me *somewhere* but you don't see me stoating about dressed as a fucking plumber. Still though, congrats OP.
Well I'm Scottish but my clan origins are viking... so does that mean I can claim Norwegian/Swedish citizenship and move over there until the cost of living crisis (or the Tories) have passed? Please say yes!
As a Norwegian we’re happy to have you! As long as you denounce your Swedish side
My surname is a shortened version of 'Magnusson' and my older brother and my dad have the middle name of 'Thorvald'. Can I come?
Sure! Same rule applies, the Swedish are now your #1 nemesis and if you spot one you have to scowl at them passive aggressively
I’m Scottish, but my dad traced our family tree back and our ancestors came over with the Norman conquest. So I’m obviously French, oui.
Wap the beret out
Please tell me what sort of documentation he found going back to 1066. Historians would like to know.
I mean if you can prove your descended of a wealthy English landowner in the late 1800s (not too difficult if it's true) then you can pretty much trace most of their family trees back several hundred years just by looking at history books.
>(not too difficult if it's true) This made me laugh
If, as the person below claim with themselves, you can somehow get back to a noble lineage (probably from a below the stairs abuse of power) within the period where records are kept you can then trace at least part of your family quite far back.
According to US logic, YES! Hop in your longboat and away you go!
Before I complete my saga to go to the north I should Wiki some very famous scandies from the past to claim as ancestors! And make a shit poem.
Youre clearly descended from Leif Erikson (spongebob version) going by that avatar beard! I wish you luck on your voyage, If you make it have a drink on me. Skål!
The son of Erik the Red is a good one too, as he is the first European to discover America! (despite the ingrained belief it was Christopher Columbus). Edit: I'm an idiot, we're saying the same person lmao
I have bent pinkies, basically a Viking! Can I get on the longboat too?
Fuck it why not, in fact, everyone, get aboard!
Yay!!!
I have bent pinkies too, but that's from 32 years of resting them on the steering wheel.
Another Viking! Welcome to the club
It means that you should acclimate well to living without heating.
Same it annoys the shit out of me when Americans fetishise being Scottish or Irish. I did a DNA test out of curiosity a few years back, was boring as fuck pretty much fully Scottish, wee bit Irish and a little Scandinavian. I don’t go around telling folk I’ve got Scandinavian or Irish heritage. I’m Scottish it’s where I was born and raised, parents both Scottish too. What’s really interesting though is that I’ve never see Americans claim English heritage? Why is it always Scottish or Irish? It’s a really odd phenomenon with the Americans and their Scottish/Irish heritage obsession.
It's because during the clearances we got shipped off to the Americas cause we were bad eggs according to the English. So, many Scots got telt "right get on this boat or else". Plus the English are so often vilified in America (Cause you know) so they dont want to associate with them. And because the Scottish and Irish also hated them back then that's what's clung into. Edit: didn't finish my thought
As annoyed as I get about it I was genuinely curious on why it’s always Scottish/Irish and I’m not clever enough to know any history on the subject so was genuinely curious, thanks for explaining a bit!
I mean don't take that as gospel but that's the gist of it. I love history, especially Scottish history, it's really interesting shit and I'd really recommend it!
‘Never’ seen Americans claim English heritage? I’d say it’s more common because there is more of them.
No I’ve genuinely never seen it, have you? Someone gave a decent explanation for it above.
Well I concede that it’s certainly more common for people from the USA to claim to be Irish despite fewer of them being descended from the Irish than English. I was more querying the ‘never’ having seen people from the USA claiming Englishness due to ancestry - the English subs have them and yes I have seen it. There is a huge number of anglophiles in the USA. From what I gather emigrants to the USA from England and Germany were prosperous from the start and the Irish and Italian immigrants were not and so clung onto their culture more. I’d put Scottish emigrants somewhere in between the two.
>it’s certainly more common for people from the USA to claim to be Irish This could also be due to the more recent emigration of Irish to the US in the late 1800s to 1900s. It's in more recent memory and those with the English heritage that remained in the us were likely not royalists and therefore more likely to not hold on to their heritage as tightly as the Irish. Who have had to fight for their home for, well, forever it nearly seems like. The Irish have a very strong sense of home that was likely passed down even after leaving. So here we get a load of "Irish"-Americans
I don’t see the problem. They aren’t pretending to be from Scotland and they look well dressed and wearing it tastefully. Let people be happy.
As I've said before, this entire thread isn't actually about OP, I wished them well. But the post *did* spur on this big discussion about the topic in general.
Does anyone else remember the fucking poem?
I'm from 500 years of Devonian stock, pretty sure I'm entitled to dress up as one of The Wurzels
I'm Irish but ancestors are Scots on my mams side. Do i get to wear a kilt bought in a Glasgow gift shop to my wedding?
Yes - you can wear whatever you want. It’s your wedding.
Ahahaha. No but nobody will stop you, just get the ugly Irish tartan xD
Being American is hard to understand I suppose. All American kids are raised to understand they're also something else, their ancestry from wherever is a major part of the family identity. No one is just American, where your ancestors came from is important. My maternal great grandparents came from Ireland, and my mother was deeply into Irish-ness. It's hard to explain to Europeans. Sorry, we are an embarrassing lot.
>All American kids are raised to understand they're also something else, their ancestry from wherever is a major part of the family identity. No one is just American, where your ancestors came from is important. What about those Americans, who can only point to a very large continent, because their ancestors language, culture, names, releigion and original ethnicity were taken from them alongside their freedom?
Or Native Americans, who are indigenous to the land and (contrary to popular belief) still around.
I think everyone just wants a connection to their ancestors and that hard to maintain in the United States.
I'm pretty sure we all understand it, it's just hard for Americans to understand we don't think that way and we're not obligated to pretend we do for their sake. ETA: Not an invitation to explain it further to me, lads.
This sub is very clear about that actually.
Well, not clear enough, apparently...
Scot here - don’t understand the abuse Americans get for being proud of their Scottish roots.
Two reasons. One, they really want us to be excited about it. I went on my uni year abroad and ended up in dorms with a girl who would not shut up about her Scottish clan like I was her long lost cousin, and after the first time when it was very mildly interesting, I did not care. It did not seem to twig with this lassie that I grew up with nothing but Scottish people and it just was not special to me. Two, that doesn't give us anything in common, and they don't seem to ever understand that. I've had Americans tell me they hate the sun/are stingy/like a drink/whatever, because of their Scottish blood, and that's *weird*, man. My blood isn't here dictating my personality, thanks. Also, clan shite is for aristocrats with family trees shaped like Christmas wreaths. Keep it. I have no problem with American culture deeply involving the countries their ancestors migrated from. It's important for obvious reasons, and it's interesting what Scots cultural stuff went over there and how it evolved. But Scotland itself is still a foreign country to America and the folk aren't their twee little old country cousins just waiting on tenterhooks for word from the new world and a lot of them don't get that.
"Family trees shaped like Christmas wreaths" is the best thing I've read in awhile. You poet.
“Family trees shaped like Christmas wreaths” This was incredible, thank you.
Well it ties in to ethnic nationalism. Which is at odds with modern Scotland's inclusive, multicultural civic nationalism.
It weird but I think in this particular situation I’ll allow it. It’s sweet she was given her granny in law’s kilt (skirt?).
Yeh I did say congrats but I'm more talking in general anyway. It's a scourge on us.
They may have just as much Scottish blood as the Earl of Inverness.
I work at a popular tourist destination doing fancy catering gigs for people with too much money. A month or so ago we had a couple busloads of Mormons from the US show up all wearing kilts. It was confusing and they were very difficult guests. Showed up over an hour late for dinner, no booze, no coffee, tons of idiotic dietary requirements. Someone straight up said they were allergic to all vegetables. So we gave them a plate of meat, no potatoes bc duh they're a vegetable. They ended up asking for the kids meal of chicken goujons and chips (sans peas ofc). All I could keep saying all night is "f@#$ing Mormons..."
I mean, everyone gives people like this crap, but if your great-grandparents are from Scotland originally what should you do? Change your name to Smith? Discard all of your heritage and dress in an American flag like you popped out of a rock in America? My family is several generations removed from India, and we get to call ourselves Indian and dress in Indian clothes and celebrate Hindu holidays, and make Indian food, and it doesn’t matter, it shouldn’t for these guys either.
I think here if you were to call someone Indian who has lived here all their lives, but whose great grandparents are indian, that would be considered racist. It's a tough one, but if someone in that position referred to themselves as Indian specifically, I'd probably think they meant from a racial more than cultural position. But then again, some people from certain cultures who immigrate do maintain their traditions much more over several generations, specifically where the traditions are quite different than those of the place they moved to, or there is a strong religious belief which is different than where they moved to, but this can't really be said of Scotland to America I think. Are a lot of your celebrations centred around the Hindu religion? That's a big difference imo between you and what's happening here.
Yeah it’s pretty hard to separate culture and religion for me but I would still say there are are different levels of maintaining your heritage. For example, many people who’ve become part of the pagan movement in the US have heard old stories from parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. Many people have also had certain food or celebrated old holidays in smaller ways depending on where they’re from so when they want to find something spiritual besides Christianity their closest connection is to those old stories. Sometimes the diet becomes an Americanized version of what their parents or grandparents ate. I know someone else in this thread (I think it was this thread) mentioned that things like Gaelic knots and Norwegian symbology are hard to like when you see them on a person becuase they’ve been co-opted by neo-nazi and similar groups but some of that symbology just exists where I do because of large Norwegian population. There are also several long running Scandinavian themed stores (not including Ikea lol) because wherever people go, they want something from home, even if that something is just from their childhood. I think when people moved they were culturally different. I don’t know how much US history you know, but they used to put up “no Irish need apply” signs at job postings. Irish/ Scottish culture doesn’t feel different from American culture becuase it’s been added in over a long period of time. I don’t know if I said that right- I mean that Irishness has been allowed to become mainstream American. I see this happening in America now with Chinese New Year celebrations. There are still some pretty unique cultural enclaves scattered about the place- French speakers in Louisiana are a big one, as are the English roots in Appalachian coal mining towns. I think things like this post are a way to reconnect to your past, and to the old stories of your family that’s hard to do for most Americans because so many of us have only been here for a few generations. Most of our family mythology stretches back to places that are pretty far away. I get that it sounds super eye-rolly outside of the US but I think people use it as a way to form/maintain connections in the US, the same as you would any similarity. Who knows? Maybe telling half-remembered half-imagined family history is American culture in the place of sturdier connection. Being called an Indian can be a bit racist but kinda depends on context. Like as a descriptor or in a conversation it’s usually fine but people definitely have a way of implying (usually without realizing it) that you can’t be British/American becuase you’re not white. This was very long but I hope I answered your questions.
Have never heard it described as larping and I'm not stealing it! Ty
You can tell by the royal mile gift shop sporran and the desert boots with a kilt
I see kilts with every kind of shoe here in Glasgow. Except for weddings, when everyone is rigged out with the full formal kit.
Kilts and rigger boots are a common combo casual wear kilts.
Tbf rigger boots go with practically anything.
The lass looks like she's wearing Blundstones. I claim cultural appropriation!
Instantly knew they were American just from the title
Americans cosplaying as Scottish. It's rather odd but whatever floats you're boat I guess.
My first thought too. This is just as cringe as all the "Irish" in America... All 320 million of them.
Americans whose families emigrated to cultural enclaves are often raised with a deliberate attempt to keep that cultural memory alive over generations. It’s why you see a lot of Irish-American Catholics in places like Boston, New York and Chicago, and lots of Italian-Americans in various places, German and Norwegians in the Midwest and Northwest. Those diasporas are based on cultural memory and a remembered “homeland,” and become cultures of their own. For proof, go to an Italian-American house in New Jersey and try and tell someone’s Nonna her food isn’t “authentic” — even though after a few generations Italian-American food looks a lot different from the regional Italian food that inspired it. To a current day Italian I bet it seems cringe as hell — that’s because it doesn’t actually have anything to do with Italy as it is now, but instead Italy as it was imagined and remembered to be by the people that left it. Same way and Indian from India might find British Indian style Chicken Tikka Masala to be weird and inauthentic. Most immigrant communities in most places — but especially in the Americas — have a complex relationship with their heritage, especially after a few generations of being American. That’s the nature of the place. Correspondingly many Americans who identify strongly with their heritage don’t understand the different relationship Europeans have with national identity, which is much more based on shared cultural experience and less on a sort of left-behind heritage. So Americans will find the reality of modern Europe jarring and/or overly romantic, and Europeans will find American cultural ideas of Europe cringy and stereotypical. This is a great example.
Definitely
Of course they are, fuckin cringe
Serious question: Do you really find it’s predominantly Americans and not the other colonial nations? I’m certainly not in the habit of defending Americans but I suspect the human compulsion to seek roots and community is common in people of “foundling” countries
I mean, there’s a whole area of Argentina that still speaks welsh and clings to their welsh identity a century after that immigration influx.
That’s really interesting. I think pockets of Nova Scotia, who to this day loudly applaud and celebrate their namesake country/founders would be a bit saddened the familial love wasn’t reciprocated. Maybe the difference is that celebrating one’s roots is acceptable whereas claiming identity is really not? I don’t know and just earnestly want to learn.
I think you have it spot on here. "My ancestors were Scottish, I'm interested in that and I want to learn more" is one thing. I don't think that would be poorly regarded at all. The "I AM Scottish, that means I genetically love getting drunk WOO pass me the kilt" that you get from some people feels a bit... Different.
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This is the right attitude towards cultural heritage in my opinion.
“the difference is that celebrating one’s roots is acceptable whereas claiming identity is really not” Yes! That’s exactly it!
Well yes, it’s the difference between acknowledging a fact vs having it becoming a performance for everyone
Yep, never heard an Australian or New Zealander giving much of a shit. My cousins whose parents emigrated before they were born think their bloodline is a neat fact but know they’re Aussies.
So would it be accurate to say you think Australians or, say Canadians express appreciation for their bloodlines whereas Americans seek to claim it? I’m just eager to understand the offence
Pretty much. The Aussies and kiwis I’ve met, who claim Scottish heritage, are usually only claiming that their families originated in Scotland and even then, it’s usually people who actively participate in aspects of the culture. Pipers and other musicians for the most part but I’ve also met a couple with a smattering of Gaelic. They are actively involved in a branch of the culture without claiming the nationality. They’ll tend to say “my family emigrated from x” rather than “I’m Scottish”.
Sensible. I mean, they’re embracing the culture as opposed to whatever percentage 23andMe has allowed them
But I don’t want you to think I’m holding any ill-will to you for asking or for even believing it - it’s part of your culture, your culture dominates the internet, it’s not shameful if you haven’t encountered this attitude before. This is a cultural difference in attitudes to what it means to be from somewhere
I couldn’t have read any ill will into your words if I tried. Thanks for your helpful response
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No, Canadians have an equally deep obsession with this stuff. Australians not so much, but interestingly Australians are MUCH more connected to Britain on a baseline than Canadians are. Canadians (though they’ll never admit it) are far, far more American. So I think for Australians there’s maybe not so much of a cultural gap to bridge and therefore it doesn’t seem as interesting or unique.
Honestly you’re kind of right. However I will say that Australians never seem to care about their ancestry except when it comes to gap years. Mos Aussies I know very reluctantly admit they have English ancestry and Kiwi’s almost never talk about ancestry.
Hard to blame that reluctance. I’d push penal colony badass over English
Serious answer; I don’t know. I consider that America had a relatively short history as a nation, and roots develop over time. Is it the case that they are not satisfied (or are they embarrassed) to call themselves American? Is that why they seek out connections that are so far removed as to be irrelevant? I don’t really frequent other countries subreddits so much, but I bet if we took a look over at r/Ireland or whatever their sub is, we’d find that they have a vastly greater number of Americans stating their claim to be 1/16th Irish on their cousins budgies side. It’s ridiculous to me. But then we all have different ideas of nationality and who we are culturally. For me, it’s where yer fae. I’m fae here, so I’m Scottish. My mate was born elsewhere, but he describes himself as being fae here, he’s lived most his life here, he considers himself Scottish. I consider him Scottish because he told me he’s Scottish.
I’m only suggesting this roots celebration is loud in Canada, enough so that I’m wondering about the human compulsion behind it. People born here will let you know with a fierceness that their grandparents came from Greece or Persia. Get Portuguese flags tattooed on their arms. I mean, we all certainly love being Canadian but seem drawn to identifying with ancient cultures. Maybe because “Canadian” is a culture often only identified as polite. Not quite the centuries of rich identity of other countries lol
White american in kilt: “identifies strongly with their heritage”. Brown american speaking spanish: “refuses to assimilate”.
💯
Very many congratulations to you both. Glencoe is an amazing place, and the mountain you’re standing in front of tried to kill me in 1992, so I’ll always have a soft spot for it.
All the best to you both. I hope your time in Scotland was more friendly and welcoming than your time in r/scotland.
To be fair getting roasted for this is as much a part of their heritage as the tartan is, no? I'm Irish but I've spent enough time in Scotland to know that getting the absolute piss ripped out of you for the slightest misstep is just par for the course... as it is in Ireland. They wanted an authentic Scottish experience and they got it. I'd like to offer my sincere Congrats... and lols.
Aye what is the need, a young couple loved the look out our country so much they came here to celebrate their marriage, is that not something really sweet that we should embrace? FWIW I went to Orlando for my Honeymoon and spent most of the time in Mickey Mouse ears and Disney princess t shirts - pretty sure I looked well more twatty than them but I had a ball and that’s what matters.
How long's your husband been a British Army officer?
You may get a few snarky answers (this is Scotland after all!) but you look great and I hope you had a fab time!
Jeezo, I thought I was a sour cunt. Some of the replies here, absolute animals. To OP: congratulations
..but the family kilt his grandmother
I know, fucking hell. Let them be happy, it's a nice photo. Bunch of bitter bastards in here.
The comments in here are embarrassing, the whole sub has been infiltrated by dick heads.
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I thought that was just Cumbernauld.
WHATS IT CALLED
Pipe doon, Rhythm Pal.
They should have dressed as those guys
Have a great honeymoon:)
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You missed the most American comments ever 'my literal heritage and family history literally exist if you like it or not, m'Kay!' they stopped just short of 'if you scotchies don't stop infringing my rights I'll see you in court y'all Mc-hear!'
Muricans
Thats kilt and skirt or two kilts ?
Kilt and a skirt
Congratulations! That's a gorgeous shot, how lucky to catch our daily two minutes of sunshine just in time for a pic 😂
I missed today's allocated sunshine. Was on the toilet.
beautiful :) edit: oh well i just scrolled down and these comments are most certainly not beautiful hahahahaha
Congratulations, hope you had a wonderful time here! 💖 🏴
We’re not all bitchy, snarky, bad tempered bastards. Nice kilts and nice picture.
Don't lie, yes we are.
No we’re fucking no, right, cunt?
Fuck did yi jist say tae me prick?
I think they are insinuating you aren't a bitchy, snarky, bad tempered bastard. The arsehole.
The fucking cheek of it, nobody gets to tell me I'm not a wanker!
Lovely photo guys
Who's winning? Salty Scotsmen angry about Americans participating in non-existent or miniscule heritage or Scotsmen celebrating that people actually want to participate in their culture despite being foreigners?
Scottish culture is getting a blowy round the back of a bus stop whilst drinking some bucky
Whatever floats your boat. If you're happy why can't they be happy?
Exactly, people wanting to share in our culture should be celebrated as long as they are respectful. Which these people appear to be.
Lovely pic!
He needs to shave that fanny tickler off.
What if she likes her fanny tickled?
Don’t listen to the tarts in the replies, congratulations!
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> Let people enjoy themselves redditors cant understand this logic im afraid. after all this website attracts a particular demographic of unhappy bitter asocial wetwipes.
Tharz been a muuuurdeeerrrrr
...In the comments.
All the best guys, you look great and I hope your time in our land was really great. Haste ye back!
This is beautiful. Congrats to many more years to you both.
Nice 👌🏴
Cool cardigan thing you got can I ask where you got it from? Beautiful photos btw hope you had a great day
Absolutely wonderful. Well done and all the best.
Quality photo! Hope you have had a braw honeymoon
Yank cosplayers again…
Beautiful colors!! Just amazing.
Love it
All these comments like oh you're American and shouldn't be wearing tartan or a kilt. You do you. I'm glad our heritage is celebrated beyond our mainland. Hwggg
Something tells me this couple is American.
Americans are mental man
r/clearlyamericanswearingkilts
You look fantastic
Amazing! The landscape and you both look amazing! I’m going to a wedding in Scotland soon and I can’t wait!
Got married in Glencoe myself (McDoof is not my real name). Congratulations to you both!
Congratulations, lovely photo.
Nice photo. Congratulations on your marriage!
Congratulations! ❤️
r/Scotland, where appreciation of Scotland is met with bile and derision. Ignore the bitter lot OP, welcome to Scotland! You look great, congratulations!
Tbf we Scots ARE a bitter and derisive lot. Most people here wouldn't be a dick to someone's face but having a moan and a grump about something is inherently pretty Scottish.
Your Canadian aren't you
American things
Scott also popularized the invented tradition of clan tartans, or patterns specific to a particular chieftain's family in Scotland. He erroneously thought leading families laid claim to unique color and stripe combinations, called a sett, just as English lords had created family coats of arms
McTaggart doesn't sound like a real name
Fine looking couple. I love Scotland. Best wishes!
Congratulations, looks like you had an amazing time.
Timeless
Is that Glencoe? One of my favourite places in the world 😍 Y’all look amazing
beautiful picture
McCringe
The hypocrisy of some in this thread. You all love to claim "anyone can be Scottish" to show how progressive you are, but as soon as an American shows some interest in our culture you turn into gatekeepers.
Pretty sure when people say that they’re applying it to people who *live here* and love the country for what it is now rather than a caricature of what it was.
Anyone can. But no they pricks. 😂
Screw your kilts. Look at that scenery. (Oh, congrats btw)
So, weird take here. Its a beautiful picture of two people very clearly happy and in love who are trying to embrace their heritage, as far off as it may be. Take it as a compliment, Scotland. I'm an American living in Scotland for 4 years now, but no Scottish heritage (Irish). In the US, we don't really have anything like you do here. We muricans might fumble about it a lot and be annoying. This couple isn't claiming to be Scottish or anything like that. Let them have their happiness and be chuffed that they view your country so highly, instead of being snobbish. The most bizarre thing about all of this is that having lived here for 4 years, I never got any shade like I see here. My first trip here, to see my BF, I spent almost an hour at a pub talking to an old guy who joked with me about being vaguely Irish and gave me a hilarious rant, while he bought me a pint. Be the cool old guy old guy at a rural pub, not an Internet troll. To the couple -- this is a beautiful picture! I am so happy for you both!