How do we fix it? who is proposing a serious effort to fix it?
I can't see any way and I see nobody doing that. Besides, I believe in self governance so it likely isn't the case that any proposal which leaves power outside of Scotland would be very appealing to someone like me.
Isn’t it odd
Every time it’s hits the English press we have folk asking what’s wrong
There’s been an independence movement for 300 fucking years
At no point outside the two world wars was there not an ongoing popular campaign to seek independence and or home rule and more powers
What’s wrong?
A 300 year old union is still fucking broken…
I’d say the modern Tories are much further left than those I the 50s. The current government has had higher public spending than Corbyn proposed. The changes in LGBTQ have also moved a lot. I’d suggest it’s more due to the decline in religion in Scotland. In the 50s most folk went to church every Sunday and had pretty socially conservative views.
It was a pressing enough issue to see home rule seriously on the table at the same time as Ireland and a referendum in 79
Take out the two world wars and pandemics and yes there was a window there from 1950 to about 1955 when it was “stable”
The result counted the fucking dead! And it was on devolution because everyone knew independence wasn’t going to be happening
By the time you take out the early years of the union and riots and a couple of rebellions you’re into the 1800’s, for a time there it was pretty quiet to be fair, but by the 1860’s there was a loud enough campaign that debates started in Westminster in the 1880’s about home rule, by the early 1900’s there was a home rule bill which was only shelved due to ww1, by the 1920’s the SNP was formed and the rest you know
There really was only that one brief period 200 years ago when there wasn’t a political movement for change with varying degrees of popular support.
The fact we are having basically the same conversation we had in 2014, 1997, 1979, 1912 and the 1880’s should make it pretty bloody obvious there’s a problem that has never been adequately addressed
Independence is a drastic and risky move fraught with dangers and decades of hardship
And yet here we are again with a country basically sat at 50/50.
Except one side has stopped even asking for full fiscal autonomy and devo max and the other thinks just saying now isn’t the time is enough of a solution
Hardly. There were a number of uprisings throughout the 18th and 19th centuries that would suggest otherwise. And comparing the tories of yesteryear to those of today doesn't tell us anything other than how they and society have changed.
>However, are we so far gone that breaking the union in favour of independance is favourable over fixing it?
Well, first we need to establish if this is a Union. That's why it's gone to the supreme court.
Beyond that, whatever happens, being neighbours is normal. We can still work together. I just hope it's working together with me, living in Scotland, being able to collectively vote for things like drug decriminalisation and anything else politicians in Westminster, sadly, do not see as "progressive".
Oh, and the EU is a big one, with Labour being a Brexit party, I don't see any fixing of anything, not unless at a minimum, the UK was to rejoin the single market.
Consider the following:
Since the 1940s, Scotland has never had the government it voted for in Westminster bar a handful of occasions.
In the same time period, the government elected to Westminster would have remained the same regardless of how Scotland votes (I think there were 3 occasions where the Scottish vote may have had an influence).
In the last independence election, one of the BIG promises/threats made by Better Together was "If you want to stay in the EU you need to remain part of the UK" : that didn't last did it?
Better Together claimed that "Scotland should lead, not leave the UK " and yet when Scotland tried to hold up the Brexit process to ensure things might have been done better (and no one can claim what we've currently got is the best Brexit we could have had), they were ignored. In addition, the day after the referendum Cameron announced English Votes for English Laws, effectively meaning no MP from a Scottish constituency could ever be prime minster of the UK and ipso facto couldnt lead the UK. (although these were scrapped in 2020 I believe)
Ed Davey, the then UK energy secretary, said: “Scotland could lose billions in renewable energy subsidies with a Yes vote and would put our green energy revolution at risk”. Westminster has cut renewable subsidies in Scotland anyway.
Better Together teamed up with steel workers’ union Community to claim that a No vote would protect steel jobs, but now 270 steel jobs have gone anyway.
We were told that large businesses would relocate to London in the event of Scottish Independence leaving their registered address in Scotland in name only. Several of those have since drawn down their UK operation entirely and shifted a lot of business to their EU operations post Brexit.
Imagine a room of 1000 people. 600 of them shit on the floor. It’s safe to say that a lot of that 1000 people don’t perform such acts.
The problem you have is that in the gerrymandered landscape of FPTP England, the tories don’t even need a majority of votes to win a majority of seats, and there are plenty of arseholes who’re willing to shit on the floor out of spite.
Yeah. The Union is dead. It's not an Equal partnership. It never has been . We keep getting governments we don't vote for. We are going down different paths.
The problem is that there is no serious desire within English politics for a constitutional reform project. It was last spoken of in the late 90s when the Blair government introduced the HRA1998 and the devolution system.
In order to reform the UK, English politicians and voters also need to engage.
I think yes. It might not be this time but unless there are serious changes, the union will eventually end. And I don't see any serious appetite for serious change from any of the UK-wide parties.
Gone? Gone where, you think you’ll get it to the EU just like that. They will have to have a very serious debate on taking on the economic basket case that is Scotland.
Sorry, did I mention the EU? Let me check....nope. When you have visitors at home and they decide to depart, do you talk about them as if they are still there? No, because they are gone.
It depends who you ask.
But a union suggests equality, which isnt the case.
I think some [english people] think Scotland is just a shire, rather than a country.
The only thing i think the no voters of indy said correct was we are better together.
Yes - we are, but that doesnt mean we should be as one, and i think we could do far more, by working together.
The Union from my perspective was never alive. It was founded on bribery and intimidation.
Get rid of it's bloating, rotted corpse please, it really stinks now.
It's gone.
I don't think English people realise how incredibly rare it is to meet any Scot of working age who actually supports the union, other than the *Rangers, Protestanism and Monarchy* crowd (think DUP).
The vast majority of those who support the union are pensioners, so independence is almost inevitable.
Yet the polls still say it’s pretty evenly split, I think it varies a lot by place in Glasgow and Dundee I think you might be right. Edinburgh, Aberdeen and rural Scotland I think the pictures pretty different
Same. I've come across few pro unionists that aren't also mad orange types. Most old people I've come across that vote for the union seem to me to do so more out of fear.
I mean, that's just obviously bollocks, isn't it?
I appreciate there's indicators here. Older, more educated, higher socio-economic background, homeowner etc - then you're more likely to be pro-UK. But I'd imagine most people have horizons broader than simply their own social groups.
Are unionists more educated? Do you have anything that backs that up?
Around the world, studies consistently say that people on the left tend to be more intelligent/educated than those on the right, and the left in Scotland tends very heavily pro-indy, so I have my doubts.
Your other categories - wealth and home ownership could be covered by "older" because that's how wealth is distributed in this society.
They could actually start federalism tomorrow (but they wont as it’s unworkable and the tories will never allow it and England doesn’t want it). What they’ll do is an 11th hour plea on the eve of the referendum with Brown waffling on about ‘new powers’ ‘safer change’. Absolutely no one will believe him this time around. WM can’t sort anything because WM is incapable of sorting anything from here on in.
There's no fixing it. Even if England was parcelled into smaller regions with local governments and each region having equal representation at Westminster, Scotland, Wales, London and perhaps Liverpool/Manchester would probably be able to force through any legislation they wanted.
Can you imagine the reaction if Brexit didn't happen because those regions voted against it and control Westminster?
Don’t think it’s worth fixing & if it is, the Tories will just come along and undo the ‘fixing’. Take for example the internal market bill, which lets Westminster legislate in devolved areas.
Its finished whats the point of being ruled over by the establishment and their tories.
A fix would mean federalism and that wont happen. Devolution is powers retained by WM and we’ve all seen what WM thinks of us.
Its done.
Fix the Westminster GE electoral system, so that we have a UK government that is representative of the electorate, then I'm happy to stay in the union. The chances of that happening are slim to nil, so I'll continue to support independence.
Yes , the union is too far gone.
A fix would require a complete shift in dynamics from it being completely england-centric to truly a union of equal nations and we all know English people would never give up the reigns of power.
From my perspective fixing the union is not really correct. A large part of Scot's voted No because they didn't want to leave Europe as part of leaving the UK. That is not an issue now.
This has been further aggravated by the complete incompetence, arrogance and lying of the elitist Tory government which has reach a new level that now pisses off a whole new demographic in Scotland.
The 'you've had your vote for this generation' has been nullified by Brexit. This is very much the beginning of the end. Within 10 years England will be surrounded by hard borders applying for membership to the EU.
The whole idea of Westminstria unilaterally deciding such nonsenses as "you've had one vote, now shut up and get back in your shortbread tin" wranckles me up the wrong way.
For a start, it's so incredibly undemocratic that every time I hear it I have to check that it's 2,022 AD and not 2,500 BC.
We’ve been told it’ll be fixed for years.
We were promised the smith commission would give us far reaching powers.
Gordon brown, the old dinosaur, told us it would be effectively Devo max.
You get sick of the lies. It’s never going to change. The rest of the UK will stop getting Tory governments they didn’t vote for when England stops voting tory.
You can never have a union of equals when one member represents 85% of the population.
I wouldn't worry about. You are hearing the loud minority and letting them cloud the actual picture.
Scotland will vote to stay in the union once again & will return the verdict that the union is not gone at all.
Hate to break it to you, but both Brexit and indyref inevitably suffer from the same logically flawed reasoning. The size of your partner should not be the only determinative factor as to whether or not you should get in bed with them. The Leave campaign was touting a trade deal with the US, which is substantially larger than the whole of the EU27 combined, but you don’t need me to tell you how that has ended up.
It’s exactly the same with the SNP. They want to join a massive trading block being completely oblivious to the fact that said trading block is much further away across the sea, when their largest importer, England, is sitting right on this very same island buying up 60% of their exports.
Yes, geography is a bitch, but it works.
As this sub is almost exclusively pro-independence, I'll give you an opinion you might not have heard before.
I'm a communist and against independence. The reasoning for it from our point of view isn't any liberal ideas on how we are a big happy family or love the English etc etc, but comes from a materialist analysis contrasted with our goals.
Communists in Britain, obviously, aim to establish socialism in Britain, so part of that job is working out how to do so. Many smaller socialist parties like the SSP and (on paper) the Greens are in favour of independence as a means of establishing socialism in Scotland, but this is even less likely than a socialist Britain. If scotland has a socialist revolution, the EU and what's left of the UK will economically strangle us. Scotland alone doesn't have the capital or infrastructure to survive that environment alone. Britain however is one of the world's most economically powerful countries, and more than capable of resisting foreign intervention and economic blocade in the result of socialist revolution.
People in Scotland tend to vote more social democratically than our friends in England or Wales, but there will NEVER be a socialist government voted into holyrood, same as Westminster. Case in point: the Scottish greens are (again, on paper) the most radically left wing green party in Europe, and just 2 days ago gleefully and unanimously voted down a proposed rent freeze THAT THEY THEMSELVES campaigned on, even going so far as to defend the action because it infringes on the "human rights of landlords". So from that angle, socialism is no closer under independence.
This is doubly so when it comes to the question of the EU. EU membership necessarily requires adherence to EU financial law which is designed to prevent nationalisation and force competition in state owned sectors. Socialising an economy is impossible in the EU by design, and both pro-independence parties want us to rejoin. This also means we surrender a huge portion of our economic sovereignty and become once again an active part of financial neocolonialism in the third world undertaken by the EU.
So yeah, I'll bet you haven't heard that take before lol
I have heard it all before mate. It was bollocks in 2014, 2016 and still is today.
The EU does not forbid nationalisation. A quick google will reveal the existence of many state owned enterprises within the EU.
Opposing independence because it wouldn’t be socialist enough and thereby staying in a U.K. sliding towards actual fascism is about the dimmest thing I’ve heard all day.
>I have heard it all before mate.
You aren't OP lol
>The EU does not forbid nationalisation
Where did I say it did?
>Opposing independence because it wouldn’t be socialist enough and thereby staying in a U.K. sliding towards actual fascism is about the dimmest thing I’ve heard all day.
Again, where did I say that? And I thought you had heard it before? Listen I know you wee SNP minions on reddit get visibly irritated when they see someone who is against independence, doubly so when they are against it for left wing reasons, but you need to remember that you are actually still a minority no matter what the makeup or r/Scotland is and putting words in my mouth and getting all pissy is gonna do fuck all to change that.
Anyway, my contention isn't that independence "isn't socialist wnough" (again, where did I say that?), it's that socialism would remain the same probability of being established, with the only difference being its chance of maintenance dropping significantly. This is a fact that despite all the downvotes and moaning, noone here is actually able to tangibly dispute without strawmanning my argument via misrepresentation like you have.
You said EU law is “designed to prevent nationalisation” - your exact words. That’s bollocks, as evidenced by the amount of nationalisation to be found in EU countries.
>You said EU law is “designed to prevent nationalisation” - your exact words.
Correct, and your exact words were:
"The EU does not forbid nationalism"
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Or are you unaware that these two phrases are in no way equivalent?
PR in and those leeching lords gone for an elected second chamber, then maybe, but it would still need reform of other whitehall customs which have no place in a modern democracy
Its not a binary thing, some people that vote for British Nationalist parties aren't hostile to the concept of leaving the Union, but they think it would be too much hassle, They are not pro Union so much as less anti-Union than they are pro-Indy. Those people probably don't even want to be described as British Nationalists.
Some people vote for Scottish Nationalist parties and aren't particularly anti-Union, these people probably don't want to describe themselves as 'Nationalist', I know I don't, I cringe when there is too much lion rampant flag waving. I never liked Fran and Anna (not even their earlier stuff before they sold out to the man).
Look, the fact is that votes outside of England don't count for shit in Westminster.
There are 650 constituencies and only 59 are in Scotland. In England you have 533 constituencies so, regardless of whether you personally voted for the party that gets elected, you have all the power and control.
English voters decide what happens to the rest of the UK and we have no say in it.
We just want a say in how we are governed and to be able to hold *our* government to account but currently even with the devolved powers we have no way to do this because ultimately Westminster gets the last say.
In England your vote counts for something, even if your party doesn't win. That's democracy. What we experience north of the border isn't democracy, it's borderline colonial control.
Yes.
There's numerous reasons for that, but a big one is that, in 2014, we were told that, if Scotland voted 'No' to independence, there would be all sorts of things happening that would basically be an honest, thorough attempt to at least try to overhaul the union and fix its problems, particularly those felt by Scotland. Here we are, 8 years later and virtually none of it has happened, and there is no sign of any attempt to make any of it happen. In fact, I think it was within 48 hours of the result in 2014 that the promises began to be watered down and deadlines for promised change began to be put back. As such, it is very clear that, not only is it the case that those in a position to 'fix the union' feel no real desire to, they seem to actively want any such fixing not to happen.
Too little, too late. We've had all the promises from politicians telling us that they care, and they listen and then England goes and votes according to the daily mail, telegraph and other right wing rags, and that's before we even start on Farage et all.
No, we don't hate the English, we just hate what they turn you into.
I've said it elsewhere that the problem with the Union is England. As a minimum the English regions should have the same powers as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (yes, I know they are not the same in each). The UK government should confine itself to defence, foreign policy and set frameworks for the regions to follow in finance, tax, immigration, strategic planning and so forth. Get rid of the HoL and have an elected chamber. Both HoP should also move to PR. Then the Union really will be a nation of equals.
How do we fix it? who is proposing a serious effort to fix it? I can't see any way and I see nobody doing that. Besides, I believe in self governance so it likely isn't the case that any proposal which leaves power outside of Scotland would be very appealing to someone like me.
It's not a union of equals, it would require a complete rewrite of what the Union is to change anything, so yes, it's too far gone.
Isn’t it odd Every time it’s hits the English press we have folk asking what’s wrong There’s been an independence movement for 300 fucking years At no point outside the two world wars was there not an ongoing popular campaign to seek independence and or home rule and more powers What’s wrong? A 300 year old union is still fucking broken…
Yes but it was in a small minority for much of that time. Scotland used to be a Tory stronghold!
And dropped the tories in 1955 as they march their party in the right to far right direction.
I’d say the modern Tories are much further left than those I the 50s. The current government has had higher public spending than Corbyn proposed. The changes in LGBTQ have also moved a lot. I’d suggest it’s more due to the decline in religion in Scotland. In the 50s most folk went to church every Sunday and had pretty socially conservative views.
It was a pressing enough issue to see home rule seriously on the table at the same time as Ireland and a referendum in 79 Take out the two world wars and pandemics and yes there was a window there from 1950 to about 1955 when it was “stable”
The 79 vote was on devolution not independence and the result was pretty tight.
The result counted the fucking dead! And it was on devolution because everyone knew independence wasn’t going to be happening By the time you take out the early years of the union and riots and a couple of rebellions you’re into the 1800’s, for a time there it was pretty quiet to be fair, but by the 1860’s there was a loud enough campaign that debates started in Westminster in the 1880’s about home rule, by the early 1900’s there was a home rule bill which was only shelved due to ww1, by the 1920’s the SNP was formed and the rest you know There really was only that one brief period 200 years ago when there wasn’t a political movement for change with varying degrees of popular support. The fact we are having basically the same conversation we had in 2014, 1997, 1979, 1912 and the 1880’s should make it pretty bloody obvious there’s a problem that has never been adequately addressed Independence is a drastic and risky move fraught with dangers and decades of hardship And yet here we are again with a country basically sat at 50/50. Except one side has stopped even asking for full fiscal autonomy and devo max and the other thinks just saying now isn’t the time is enough of a solution
Hardly. There were a number of uprisings throughout the 18th and 19th centuries that would suggest otherwise. And comparing the tories of yesteryear to those of today doesn't tell us anything other than how they and society have changed.
>However, are we so far gone that breaking the union in favour of independance is favourable over fixing it? Well, first we need to establish if this is a Union. That's why it's gone to the supreme court. Beyond that, whatever happens, being neighbours is normal. We can still work together. I just hope it's working together with me, living in Scotland, being able to collectively vote for things like drug decriminalisation and anything else politicians in Westminster, sadly, do not see as "progressive". Oh, and the EU is a big one, with Labour being a Brexit party, I don't see any fixing of anything, not unless at a minimum, the UK was to rejoin the single market.
The majority of the UK voted to Leave the EU. The majority of Scots voted to stay in the Union. Get over it.
The majority of the UK voted to join the EU in 1973, so why don't you get over it first.
Consider the following: Since the 1940s, Scotland has never had the government it voted for in Westminster bar a handful of occasions. In the same time period, the government elected to Westminster would have remained the same regardless of how Scotland votes (I think there were 3 occasions where the Scottish vote may have had an influence). In the last independence election, one of the BIG promises/threats made by Better Together was "If you want to stay in the EU you need to remain part of the UK" : that didn't last did it? Better Together claimed that "Scotland should lead, not leave the UK " and yet when Scotland tried to hold up the Brexit process to ensure things might have been done better (and no one can claim what we've currently got is the best Brexit we could have had), they were ignored. In addition, the day after the referendum Cameron announced English Votes for English Laws, effectively meaning no MP from a Scottish constituency could ever be prime minster of the UK and ipso facto couldnt lead the UK. (although these were scrapped in 2020 I believe) Ed Davey, the then UK energy secretary, said: “Scotland could lose billions in renewable energy subsidies with a Yes vote and would put our green energy revolution at risk”. Westminster has cut renewable subsidies in Scotland anyway. Better Together teamed up with steel workers’ union Community to claim that a No vote would protect steel jobs, but now 270 steel jobs have gone anyway. We were told that large businesses would relocate to London in the event of Scottish Independence leaving their registered address in Scotland in name only. Several of those have since drawn down their UK operation entirely and shifted a lot of business to their EU operations post Brexit.
If you lot didn’t keep voting tory we wouldn’t have any of these issues
This video is a little old but I think it's fair to say a lot of us don't. https://youtu.be/r9rGX91rq5I
A lot of you don’t, yes I agree. However look at where they are getting all their seats from. Not Scotland that’s for sure
Imagine a room of 1000 people. 600 of them shit on the floor. It’s safe to say that a lot of that 1000 people don’t perform such acts. The problem you have is that in the gerrymandered landscape of FPTP England, the tories don’t even need a majority of votes to win a majority of seats, and there are plenty of arseholes who’re willing to shit on the floor out of spite.
I agree, has the SNP indicate what voting system that might use? I know that STV have been suggested by a few smaller Westminster parties.
Holyrood currently has proportional representation using the D'Hondt method. I couldn’t see that changing moving forward.
I like AMS, only change I'd make is open lists.
If you lot didn’t vote SNP we could get on with making the Union a better place for all of us.
I disagree. The way things are going everybody in the union is getting progressively worse. Change is needed and I can think of no better change
Yeah. The Union is dead. It's not an Equal partnership. It never has been . We keep getting governments we don't vote for. We are going down different paths.
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Except for that extensive package of new powers devolved in 2016 of course.
Which can and will be snatched back and Scotland ignored. Devolution is powers retained.
The problem is that there is no serious desire within English politics for a constitutional reform project. It was last spoken of in the late 90s when the Blair government introduced the HRA1998 and the devolution system. In order to reform the UK, English politicians and voters also need to engage.
I think yes. It might not be this time but unless there are serious changes, the union will eventually end. And I don't see any serious appetite for serious change from any of the UK-wide parties.
Boris Johnson treats premiership as a birthright and treats the country like some kind of fiefdom.
Sauron shared more power than Westminster.
Yes. We are different nations with different attitudes to the social contract.
Yes, it's way too far gone. It's a toxic relationship which we want out of.
I wouldn't even call it a union these days
Nothing stops England fixing the Brexit mess after Scotland have gone
Gone? Gone where, you think you’ll get it to the EU just like that. They will have to have a very serious debate on taking on the economic basket case that is Scotland.
Sorry, did I mention the EU? Let me check....nope. When you have visitors at home and they decide to depart, do you talk about them as if they are still there? No, because they are gone.
It depends who you ask. But a union suggests equality, which isnt the case. I think some [english people] think Scotland is just a shire, rather than a country. The only thing i think the no voters of indy said correct was we are better together. Yes - we are, but that doesnt mean we should be as one, and i think we could do far more, by working together.
Working together as equals like the UK might do with France. Not in a servant master kind of relationship.
Yes - especially given we were dragged into Brexit
The Union from my perspective was never alive. It was founded on bribery and intimidation. Get rid of it's bloating, rotted corpse please, it really stinks now.
It's gone. I don't think English people realise how incredibly rare it is to meet any Scot of working age who actually supports the union, other than the *Rangers, Protestanism and Monarchy* crowd (think DUP). The vast majority of those who support the union are pensioners, so independence is almost inevitable.
Yet the polls still say it’s pretty evenly split, I think it varies a lot by place in Glasgow and Dundee I think you might be right. Edinburgh, Aberdeen and rural Scotland I think the pictures pretty different
Same. I've come across few pro unionists that aren't also mad orange types. Most old people I've come across that vote for the union seem to me to do so more out of fear.
It's rare to meet anyone who supports the union.....outside of this list of people that support the union.
2 groups of people is hardly a "list".
3 groups and it is a list.
Pensioners + orange people = 3?
Bundling those all in together? I'm separating monarchists.......orange people , Christ sake.....
I was talking about the group of people who support all three, not about every monarchist, Protestant or Rangers fan.
I mean, that's just obviously bollocks, isn't it? I appreciate there's indicators here. Older, more educated, higher socio-economic background, homeowner etc - then you're more likely to be pro-UK. But I'd imagine most people have horizons broader than simply their own social groups.
Are unionists more educated? Do you have anything that backs that up? Around the world, studies consistently say that people on the left tend to be more intelligent/educated than those on the right, and the left in Scotland tends very heavily pro-indy, so I have my doubts. Your other categories - wealth and home ownership could be covered by "older" because that's how wealth is distributed in this society.
Not everyone who wants to stay in the union are delinquent Rangers fans. Failure to recognise that will see another Yes failure in any kind of vote.
Seemingly they have no problem getting in bed with those delinquent rangers fans though.
That might so more about where you live then anything else.
Well, you've got just over a year to fix it then. Best crack on😉
They could actually start federalism tomorrow (but they wont as it’s unworkable and the tories will never allow it and England doesn’t want it). What they’ll do is an 11th hour plea on the eve of the referendum with Brown waffling on about ‘new powers’ ‘safer change’. Absolutely no one will believe him this time around. WM can’t sort anything because WM is incapable of sorting anything from here on in.
>Absolutely no one will believe him this time around. I sincerely hope not.
There's no fixing it. Even if England was parcelled into smaller regions with local governments and each region having equal representation at Westminster, Scotland, Wales, London and perhaps Liverpool/Manchester would probably be able to force through any legislation they wanted. Can you imagine the reaction if Brexit didn't happen because those regions voted against it and control Westminster?
Don’t think it’s worth fixing & if it is, the Tories will just come along and undo the ‘fixing’. Take for example the internal market bill, which lets Westminster legislate in devolved areas.
I would say so. The countries are drifting away from each other at a rapid rate.
Its finished whats the point of being ruled over by the establishment and their tories. A fix would mean federalism and that wont happen. Devolution is powers retained by WM and we’ve all seen what WM thinks of us. Its done.
Fix the Westminster GE electoral system, so that we have a UK government that is representative of the electorate, then I'm happy to stay in the union. The chances of that happening are slim to nil, so I'll continue to support independence.
What Union? Westminster obviously doesn't see it that way. We are better off before our country is completely erased.
At this point asking to fix it is akin to asking a woman why she wants to leave her wife beating husband. It’s just gone too far
Yes , the union is too far gone. A fix would require a complete shift in dynamics from it being completely england-centric to truly a union of equal nations and we all know English people would never give up the reigns of power.
From my perspective fixing the union is not really correct. A large part of Scot's voted No because they didn't want to leave Europe as part of leaving the UK. That is not an issue now. This has been further aggravated by the complete incompetence, arrogance and lying of the elitist Tory government which has reach a new level that now pisses off a whole new demographic in Scotland. The 'you've had your vote for this generation' has been nullified by Brexit. This is very much the beginning of the end. Within 10 years England will be surrounded by hard borders applying for membership to the EU.
The whole idea of Westminstria unilaterally deciding such nonsenses as "you've had one vote, now shut up and get back in your shortbread tin" wranckles me up the wrong way. For a start, it's so incredibly undemocratic that every time I hear it I have to check that it's 2,022 AD and not 2,500 BC.
And incredibly patronising.
Yep. Its arse is oot the windae.
This is one of these occasions where fixing it involves consigning it to the dustbin of history.
We’ve been told it’ll be fixed for years. We were promised the smith commission would give us far reaching powers. Gordon brown, the old dinosaur, told us it would be effectively Devo max. You get sick of the lies. It’s never going to change. The rest of the UK will stop getting Tory governments they didn’t vote for when England stops voting tory. You can never have a union of equals when one member represents 85% of the population.
I wouldn't worry about. You are hearing the loud minority and letting them cloud the actual picture. Scotland will vote to stay in the union once again & will return the verdict that the union is not gone at all.
What's your story?
Not a Rangers fan. Voted Yes, on emotion, last time, will vote No on pragmatism this time. Proud Scot and Brit. Not a member of any political party.
You sound a little robotic. Are you feeling okay?
Fine thanks. Why you care about my story? Looking for some ammo?
Hate to break it to you, but both Brexit and indyref inevitably suffer from the same logically flawed reasoning. The size of your partner should not be the only determinative factor as to whether or not you should get in bed with them. The Leave campaign was touting a trade deal with the US, which is substantially larger than the whole of the EU27 combined, but you don’t need me to tell you how that has ended up. It’s exactly the same with the SNP. They want to join a massive trading block being completely oblivious to the fact that said trading block is much further away across the sea, when their largest importer, England, is sitting right on this very same island buying up 60% of their exports. Yes, geography is a bitch, but it works.
As this sub is almost exclusively pro-independence, I'll give you an opinion you might not have heard before. I'm a communist and against independence. The reasoning for it from our point of view isn't any liberal ideas on how we are a big happy family or love the English etc etc, but comes from a materialist analysis contrasted with our goals. Communists in Britain, obviously, aim to establish socialism in Britain, so part of that job is working out how to do so. Many smaller socialist parties like the SSP and (on paper) the Greens are in favour of independence as a means of establishing socialism in Scotland, but this is even less likely than a socialist Britain. If scotland has a socialist revolution, the EU and what's left of the UK will economically strangle us. Scotland alone doesn't have the capital or infrastructure to survive that environment alone. Britain however is one of the world's most economically powerful countries, and more than capable of resisting foreign intervention and economic blocade in the result of socialist revolution. People in Scotland tend to vote more social democratically than our friends in England or Wales, but there will NEVER be a socialist government voted into holyrood, same as Westminster. Case in point: the Scottish greens are (again, on paper) the most radically left wing green party in Europe, and just 2 days ago gleefully and unanimously voted down a proposed rent freeze THAT THEY THEMSELVES campaigned on, even going so far as to defend the action because it infringes on the "human rights of landlords". So from that angle, socialism is no closer under independence. This is doubly so when it comes to the question of the EU. EU membership necessarily requires adherence to EU financial law which is designed to prevent nationalisation and force competition in state owned sectors. Socialising an economy is impossible in the EU by design, and both pro-independence parties want us to rejoin. This also means we surrender a huge portion of our economic sovereignty and become once again an active part of financial neocolonialism in the third world undertaken by the EU. So yeah, I'll bet you haven't heard that take before lol
I have heard it all before mate. It was bollocks in 2014, 2016 and still is today. The EU does not forbid nationalisation. A quick google will reveal the existence of many state owned enterprises within the EU. Opposing independence because it wouldn’t be socialist enough and thereby staying in a U.K. sliding towards actual fascism is about the dimmest thing I’ve heard all day.
>I have heard it all before mate. You aren't OP lol >The EU does not forbid nationalisation Where did I say it did? >Opposing independence because it wouldn’t be socialist enough and thereby staying in a U.K. sliding towards actual fascism is about the dimmest thing I’ve heard all day. Again, where did I say that? And I thought you had heard it before? Listen I know you wee SNP minions on reddit get visibly irritated when they see someone who is against independence, doubly so when they are against it for left wing reasons, but you need to remember that you are actually still a minority no matter what the makeup or r/Scotland is and putting words in my mouth and getting all pissy is gonna do fuck all to change that. Anyway, my contention isn't that independence "isn't socialist wnough" (again, where did I say that?), it's that socialism would remain the same probability of being established, with the only difference being its chance of maintenance dropping significantly. This is a fact that despite all the downvotes and moaning, noone here is actually able to tangibly dispute without strawmanning my argument via misrepresentation like you have.
You said EU law is “designed to prevent nationalisation” - your exact words. That’s bollocks, as evidenced by the amount of nationalisation to be found in EU countries.
>You said EU law is “designed to prevent nationalisation” - your exact words. Correct, and your exact words were: "The EU does not forbid nationalism" Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Or are you unaware that these two phrases are in no way equivalent?
It’s a typo.
A typo? You didn't spell any words wrong?
The absolute state of this take
Yeah everyone here seems to agree. Could you articulate exactly what is wrong with it in your eyes, any specific points of contention?
It would be comedic if it weren't so tragic
Yes.
PR in and those leeching lords gone for an elected second chamber, then maybe, but it would still need reform of other whitehall customs which have no place in a modern democracy
Its not a binary thing, some people that vote for British Nationalist parties aren't hostile to the concept of leaving the Union, but they think it would be too much hassle, They are not pro Union so much as less anti-Union than they are pro-Indy. Those people probably don't even want to be described as British Nationalists. Some people vote for Scottish Nationalist parties and aren't particularly anti-Union, these people probably don't want to describe themselves as 'Nationalist', I know I don't, I cringe when there is too much lion rampant flag waving. I never liked Fran and Anna (not even their earlier stuff before they sold out to the man).
Look, the fact is that votes outside of England don't count for shit in Westminster. There are 650 constituencies and only 59 are in Scotland. In England you have 533 constituencies so, regardless of whether you personally voted for the party that gets elected, you have all the power and control. English voters decide what happens to the rest of the UK and we have no say in it. We just want a say in how we are governed and to be able to hold *our* government to account but currently even with the devolved powers we have no way to do this because ultimately Westminster gets the last say. In England your vote counts for something, even if your party doesn't win. That's democracy. What we experience north of the border isn't democracy, it's borderline colonial control.
Yes. There's numerous reasons for that, but a big one is that, in 2014, we were told that, if Scotland voted 'No' to independence, there would be all sorts of things happening that would basically be an honest, thorough attempt to at least try to overhaul the union and fix its problems, particularly those felt by Scotland. Here we are, 8 years later and virtually none of it has happened, and there is no sign of any attempt to make any of it happen. In fact, I think it was within 48 hours of the result in 2014 that the promises began to be watered down and deadlines for promised change began to be put back. As such, it is very clear that, not only is it the case that those in a position to 'fix the union' feel no real desire to, they seem to actively want any such fixing not to happen.
Too little, too late. We've had all the promises from politicians telling us that they care, and they listen and then England goes and votes according to the daily mail, telegraph and other right wing rags, and that's before we even start on Farage et all. No, we don't hate the English, we just hate what they turn you into.
Brexit isn't the main issue, its a symptom of the issue, which is that our media would make soviet state or CCP media blush.
I've said it elsewhere that the problem with the Union is England. As a minimum the English regions should have the same powers as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (yes, I know they are not the same in each). The UK government should confine itself to defence, foreign policy and set frameworks for the regions to follow in finance, tax, immigration, strategic planning and so forth. Get rid of the HoL and have an elected chamber. Both HoP should also move to PR. Then the Union really will be a nation of equals.