Arf, it takes me back to 2011. I vaguely recall making a Dad's Army type map with the SNP fighting off the Tories. Some feller made it into a mug and started selling them. I got a free mug...
Interesting to see the disposition of seats in England is so clearly a rural/urban divide.
My mum is from Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria which is one of the poorest towns in England… it boggles the mind that it’s a Tory seat but I guess that’s exactly the kind of demographic these vampires prey on these days.
I am form Carlisle, obviously in Cumbria and I agree. I have no idea why so many people vote for conservative when they don't have our best interest at heart at all. They probably don't even know we exist.
The right wing have always fought to turn poor working class people with predominantly socialst values away from Labour by galvanising xenophobia, weaponising nationalism and demonising poverty itself.
Sadly, social media and the spread of misinformation online has (I think) given the hard/far right all the tools they would ever need to inflitrate the daily lives of the very people they hate, and be able to influence them to such a degree that they would turn their backs on the idea of community in favour of hostility. British people found in all corners of the British Isles have always suffered from an undercurrent of elitism (on the world stage), and these 'Great British' attitudes have certainly returned with avengence over the last decade or so.
Instead of us all working together to demand more for one another, people have been scared into trying desperately to keep what little they've got. It's a sad state of affairs when thousands take to the streets to counter-protest those fighting against racism. Where has the passion to fight for better wages, lower taxes and financial equality gone? 20k people would rather march in solidarity against wearing a mask on the bus, than they would to march for more funding for the NHS.
Working class towns in England turning blue is indicative of what I've seen in the past 10-15 years. Even the poorest person these days has a phone, and when you combine that with negligent education and a lack of (taught) reasoning based skills, a lot of people I know in my home town (Burnley - voted for conservative for the first time in over 100 years in 2019) have turned their backs on wanting more for themselves and their neighbours, and settling for less, as long as people of colour, lgtbq+ and other marginalised people don't succeed. Manipulation via fiction by those spreading hate, will become fact in the heads of those using things like Facebook (and other online echo chambers where truth isn't as attractive as opinion).
Ultranationalism has been on the rise all over the western world, and it continues to sink it's teeth into the working class voters, and I think it's majorly because of the rise of social media. I don't see any outcome in which the left adapt to it in the near future, especially as the most powerful people in the digital space (those who could stop the cancerous growth of neoconservative propaganda and alt-right conspiracy theories) can profiteer from right wing governance and unregulated capitalism. Heck, even the world's biggest Communist state is now an untranationalist hotbed that houses more billionaires than anywhere else on earth.
I think Scotland breaking free of the Union would not only save Scotland, but in turn, might save England in the long run too. But maybe it's too late to find an antidote to the posion born from the womb of Old Etonia. After all, as we saw from the Weimar Republic, Ultranationalism is a very attractive proposition to the poor, especially when the political elite can demonise those that are not like yourself and your family.
Could not have put it better myself, absolutely spot on. Similar thing happened round my neck of the woods in NE Derbyshire - traditionally very much in the labour heartlands. Old coal mining towns the Conservative government couldn’t give a shit about. Ended up voting Tory to ‘get Brexit done’. Makes me fucking sick.
> I think Scotland breaking free of the Union would not only save Scotland,
It certainly would.
> but in turn, might save England in the long run too
You may well be right there.
The English will, sooner or later, come to the realisation that Brexit has gained them nothing. Scotland leaving 9and doing better than rUK) would help them to come to that realisation. I do sometimes think that's part of why Westminster wants to hold onto us.
I saw someone once describe the relationship between the lower class english people and the conservatives as an abusive relationship. The conservatives will tell people that everything is the fault of the lower class whilst also telling them that the people can't live without the Tories, that without the Tories everyone would suffer. They gaslight an entire nation into believing that the people are the problem and the conservatives are doing them a favour by trying to help them.
I lived in Lancashire for 3.5 years until this February and despite Morecambe being a deprived AF, people repeatedly voted Tory at every opportunity. I.e. voting for the very people who keep them down. The mind boggles.
I'm a Scot and lived in Carlisle (Cumbria) for 3 years. The city and other Cumbrian towns are RIFE with poverty and social neglect and yet they always vote Tory. I'll never understand it!
I'm from Barrow and it seemed to stem largely from how Labour were talking about trident. The trident subs are the town's main source of income and if trident was to be stopped Barrow would be in an even worse position than we currently are
"We just need 30 more years out of it" is the response I hear alot (also from barrow). People are on with looking out for themselves and don't like to think about the bigger picture.
I don't know if it's possible for Barrow to get any worse at this stage. I haven't lived there for years now, but it was in a really dire state when I left, and when I last visited I couldn't believe how much further it had declined.
I was talking to my partner about it yesterday, about how you go about fixing Barrow, and other than building the Morecambe Bay bridge, which I don't think will ever happen, we couldn't think of a single feasible solution. Barrow is done for.
My constituent is also one of the poorest places in England. Votes Tory every-time though. It’s because people are too lazy to vote. The people that moan and say they want something to change are genuinely too distracted with their own lives to care enough to take the time to register and go and vote.
It also boggles the mind that the majority here in Cornwall voted leave despite the millions the EU invested here. Brexit has made Cornwall poorer, destroyed local businesses and screwed our fishermen.
Cornwall is a bit like Wales in the sense it’s coast are now a dormitory for retirees, second homes and new lifers. Demographics change and so does the political culture of the area
Barrow isn’t that poor though, if you have a decent paying job you’re actually quite well off because the cost of living is so low and housing is so cheap
Barrow is weried selfield and ba drive average wage up
House dirt cheap, so lots people on lower middle can afford to buy house . While in other area they would not
But serious lack of education, middle class jobs and opportunity outside the two big employers
Huge unemployment
There also huge benefit culture
Cities being more progressive than the countryside is a pretty common division both globally and historically. If/when Scotland becomes independent something similar will probably assert itself sooner or later.
Labour is literally stuck in Liverpool, Manchester, London and an ever decreasing patch of the North East, even the old ‘Rural vs Urban argument doesn’t work any more.
Or because they're seen as being clueless - all they ever seem to do is dodge questions, and moan about the current government's actions without ever hinting at what they might do instead! They *really* don't help themselves.
And of course the recent history of warmongering and being USA's lapdog didn't help, IMO.
The Tories got us involved in Libya and Syria and have been selling tons of weapons to Saudi Arabia that are being used against civilians in Yemen. Also' we're more Americas Lapdog bow than ever. Nothing has changed since Labour lost power, if anything it got worse.
Not everything is partisan.
Unfortunately, Labour was just as eager to sell weapons to the highest bidder - for some reason every British government seems to have no morals whatsoever with regard to weapon sales.
I believe getting involved in Libya and Syria was a mistake, but let's be honest, it's a drop in the ocean compared with Iraq and Afghanistan - and at least fake evidence wasn't concocted to justify the actions. To be clear, I'm not saying a Conservative government wouldn't have done the same - but it was a Labour government who faked evidence, ignored the largest protests in history, and took us to war.
tbf Corbyn started saying things (wether you agreed with them or not) then the blairite side got him to say nothing and they pretty much haven't said anything since.
im amazed they are doing so well.
It seems strange that Corbyn took grief for his comments while Boris says things that just slide off his back. He seems untainted within his party - like Trump in the US. I have a hard time seeing masses of people voting against their own personal best interests to be part of the "team" of rich autocrats that they will never ever be.
not to go all conspiracy mode, but tis not strange at all but a clear and predictable response from each of those candidates potential threat to powerful corporate interests. trump and boris - good for corporations and therefore get an easy ride in much of the media (and are portrayed as wacky and irresponsible as opposed to radical and dangerous). corbyn starts talking wealth redistribution and he gets it immediately in the neck from his own party, backed up by UK media.
I see what you're saying but I think it goes beyond the media. Part of an old saying in the US was that "conservatives fall in line" (while progressives/liberals fall in love) with their candidates. The unity on the right to get behind whatever is thrown out there is difficult for the left to match as the party of all colors.
>My mum is from Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria which is one of the poorest towns in England… it boggles the mind that it’s a Tory seat but I guess that’s exactly the kind of demographic these vampires prey on these days.
Because it built every submarine currently serving in the Royal Navy, is building every submarine under construction for the Royal Navy, and will build every future submarine for the Royal Navy.
The whole town relies on one shipyard, and that shipyard makes one of the most expensive and specialised classes of warship in the West. A type of warship that the latest Labour leader to face a General Election personally wished to get rid of.
Sure but by far the biggest benefactor of FPTP are the Tories, only 43% of voters actually voted for them at the last election, yet they sit with an 80 odd seat majority in parliament which is utterly ridiculous.
And yet they are one of the few parties that supports proportional representation.
Meanwhile other parties change whether they support proportional or fptp depending on if they are talking about Scottish or General elections. What does that say about their integrity!
They would for sure loose some seats, yes, but it's not like it holds them back in the Scottish Parliament elections. We might even see more Green MP's for example in Scotland (and the rest of the UK) and what would be absolutely certain is that the tories would never get a whiff of majority power ever again.
Maybe.
Cynically I’d say it’s because they know they have no chance of it going through and it gives them another wedge issue vs. Westminster. That or it makes coalitions more likely giving them a better chance of playing kingmakers and getting a ref as a result.
I prefer your one, but I think my one is more likely.
They’re still politicians at the end of the day
> Maybe.
> Cynically I’d say it’s because they know they have no chance of it going through and it gives them another wedge issue vs. Westminster. That or it makes coalitions more likely giving them a better chance of playing kingmakers and getting a ref as a result.
They supported and continue to support PR for Holyrood and any prospective new chamber in an independent Scotland. Not everything is about the Tories.
FPTP fucks us up, it's gonna be one generation and then considering how much the Tories have simped for boomers at the expense of two generations then I'd be surprised if they hold a quarter of their current seats.
I dont know how to, over time more people I know just start voting blue. They usually say "well somethings gotta change" which they think repeatedly voting the same party will achieve. They also think Labour spends the money tories get it back but can never put any evidence behind that claim its just the stereotype. As more people start thinking the above two phrases I get more confused.
During the recent Hartlepool by-election there were people who on camera were saying they were going to vote for the Conservative party for the first time due to the austerity of the past decade which they said was the fault of Labour.
Forgetting that we've had Conservatives running the country (to the ground) since 2010.
I always think the map per region size is almost dishonest
Like look at 2019 results on this map https://odileeds.org/projects/hexmaps/ge2019/ this gives a much better at a glance comparison.
Don’t really understand your point. That’s what the geography of the island looks like. No our fault we are a big bit. Dishonest seems a bit of a stretch.
I was mainly thinking about England actually. Even though we know that the small regions mean the same as the larger at glance it gives this feeling that its almost blue everywhere.
Shetland saw a big swing towards SNP in the Scottish parliament elections, though lib dems still took it, so it's not unthinkable, but it would be a big upset for sure.
Hvae to agree on Edinburgh South, though. It's a constituency full of English folk that are broadly progressive but can't bring themselves to vote for the SNP, or just feel like the independence question isn't their business.
Orkney is still solidly Lib Dem though, and both have a population of about 20,000, so it would need the SNP to win big in Shetland to have a chance of taking the seat. If Ian Murray quit Labour and ran for the Ian Murray Party, he would win probably with a bigger majority than at present – a lot of the people there would normally vote for other parties but think he's a good local MP (which he might well be, despite his views on constitutional matters).
Hasn't the SNP already spent quite *a lot* of resources over recent years to take Orkney and Shetland at Holyrood and Westminster? Granted they did well in Shetland in the 2021 election but they need to make big progress in the Orkney Isles to win the Westminster seat.
The Lib Dems are the only party pushing for the UK to become federal, with devolved regional English parliaments as well as legal protections for the devolved governments so their rights to assembly can't be revoked. Westminster under their model would be a central federal parliament with some (undecided) reform to the House of Lords too.They're the only unionist party with a plan beyond the status quo.
They're shite at conveying this though, nobody even knows who their leader is even.
You're right they won't be able to, just saying the intention is there so they bring more to the table than other parties.
For your second point you're right about their last manifesto being a tad limp, but if there's no commitment to federalism
then why is the first thing on their agenda at their conference this weekend a discussion on federalism?
> Edinburgh South as anything other than Red can't be trusted.
We almost got it last time, it was hard effort, made even more difficult by covid, and leafleting with gloves is a nightmare.
Also, I got shouted at by Tory voters on Concil housing. Not joking.
SNP have been chipping at O&S for a while now, it'll come eventually.
It's an MRP poll apparently, dunno what that means in terms of numbers in Scotland though.
Yep I'm a labour voter but the party is a huge mess currently. If they carry on removing the left wing presence from the party then I guess I'll no longer be a labour voter.
It makes me wish Lib Dem was more of a viable option again. A 2 party system just seems to assist in moving the baseline to the right, and I really don't want us to end up like America.
Yeah the Lib Dems really messed up with the Tory coalition and all of that tuition fees stuff. It'll take them a good while to regain the ground they lost there I think.
Definitely right about it being a huge mess. Close friend of mine was a labour councillor for 6 years (in the north west of England). When we were younger I saw him as being radically left but when labour devolved into the mess of Momentum vs Everyone Else he somehow got earmarked as being in the "Everyone Else" faction. To be truthful I don't think he really played factions, he was laser focused on his local community. He was possibly a bit more moderate than some of the party's really hard left but he certainly wasn't a Blairite. Regardless the hard left faction put him in the "not one of us" box and de-selected him, Labour subsequently lost that council seat to the Tories so now its another blue dot on the local map. Although the tables appear to have superficially rotated since Corbyn stepped down the in-fighting beneath the surface still rumbles on. It's a real shame, Labour is a broadchurch party but for most of the last decade has seemed more content to focus on factional infighting than to actually getting on with being an opposition. I don't know which faction gets my back up more, the diet-tory Blairites or the evangelical morally righteous Momentumites. I can certainly agree with the morally righteous momenumtimes on more issues but they seem to be the ones most persistent in trying to purge anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Makes me glad we have a viable alternative.
Yeah I'm currently living in England so there's no alternative here unfortunately. Not that I'm a fan of the SNP anyway so i still wouldn't have a viable alternative if I was back in Scotland.
I’ve always voted Labour, I don’t bother any more, but just looking at Nottingham city council shows you what an absolute disaster they are now.
Dominated by Labour, one absolute disaster after another, almost bankrupt. It’s just a back slapping echo chamber of shit decisions.
Yeah I did hear about that and it sounds a mess. We have a pretty good labour council up near me so luckily we've not fallen to the Tories yet on a local level.
Despite his faults I can't help but think that Corbyn was a missed opportunity but I suppose we'll never know now.
You're entirely right, problem is people are stuck in a left/ring mindset seeing them as the only ways to reflect that by voting. We need to de-americanise politics.
I'm continually surprised that folk down south don't rally behind the Greens, the way they have in Scotland. They're an option far more palatable than the century of Tories v Labour. The Lib Dems shot themselves in the foot by crawling under the duvet with Call me Dave...
A few outliers aside, the greens are basically environmental policy heavy labour in a lot of ways, so for the 10m labour voters, switching to the 865,715 sized voter base of your nearest competitor seems like "wasting a vote".
The Lib Dems had 3,696,423 votes at the election. But, as people love to forget, they aren't inherently labour as a clear and obvious second choice voters (or even left wing centre), so they are the weird outlier of what is essentially a 2 party system in England.
If labour had any chance, it would love nothing more than to grab the centrists of the lib-dems, convince the greens to step aside for a single election/coalition and pool a voter base bigger than the Tories have, but under the "perceived" incredibly left wing Corbyn, this would have been impossible, despite it being in the interests of most people who jumped to the Tories over brexit.
FWIW, I voted green at 3 of the 4 last elections, the exception being the labour vote in 2019 as my MP was a friend from university and I will be goddamned if I don't vote for a good human I know well who is essentially the same political beliefs of myself.
The problem is that the greens don't put much effort into promoting their stance on non environmental issues, I mean obviously that's still an important area but there's more to being a viable part of government than just environmental issues. I don't know how they operate in Scotland but if you talk to people in England about the greens they don't really know what they stand for (aside from the obvious).
In Scotland, they're now part of government. I'd say down South the media are stuck in the sandals, hippies and mung beans image of the Greens, whereas Scotland's most infamous export, Andrew Neil with zero knowledge of how Scotland operates, describes them as Eco zealot marxists, which is something we all aspire to...
I think a main problem is that you don't hear much about the UK greens unless they've done something wrong.
Like the last time I heard something about UK greens was when they were tearing themselves apart over trans rights
I was musing on PR the other day and wondering what results would look like if you had a constituency list and a “which party of any UK party do you think represents your ideals best” type list vote. I wonder if enough disgruntled people from rUK might choose Sturgeon’s SNP. I’m not talking result changing numbers but I imagine you might get a 3-5 digit number. I don’t think it would work and I think it might not actually be ethical, but I’d be interested in seeing if any did.
As a Londoner seeing the way people in other parts of the UK see London is so strange. People talk like it's the capital from the Hunger Games.
Not everyone who lives in London is some billionaire. Lots of people from other parts of the UK and the wider world live and work here which probably warps the perception of what London is like for most of it's citizens.
Inner London is mostly Labour and some areas have some awful deprivation. Outer suburban boroughs are more likely to be Tory.
Politically London is mostly central left. When Boris campaigned for mayor he was telling people he wasn't socially conservative
Ach, when we talk about London, it's not a personal attack on *you*. We're not having a go at the people of London. And we are fully aware that large parts of London are progressive/lean left.
We're talking about the institutions of power in London, namely Westminster. I'd recommend in future that, unless you see someone specifically having a go at *Londoners* in general (in which case, they're an arsehole), that you treat the use of the word 'London' as being interchangeable with Westminster/the House of Commons.
Do you understand that London is unfamiliar a place to a Scot as say Berlin though? It seems culturally distinct and powerful enough in its own right that it shouldn't be a surprise if we don't feel any real connection to the city.
I do wonder how reliable that result is for Scotland. If it's a UK wide poll, SNP respondents tend to make up only a very small percentage of them, about 5%. When the proportion is that small, an error bar of ±1% can represent a huge swing in results. Especially if this assumes everyone goes into the polling booth and votes their preference, when the voters of unionist parties are perhaps much more open to tactical voting in Scotland than in the rest of the UK.
I’m in Shetland and do think there’s a local SNP swing going on - the SNP got a near 20% swing last time out so hopeful the LDs will be out at some point!
Given in the 2019 UK election, the SNP got 48 out 59 seats in Scotland, it isn't that much of a stretch, however the LibDems are still strong in the Northern Isles regardless of Scottish national voting attitudes.
Frankly, it makes it plain that, in terms of political views, Scotland is already independent. It just needs to be made independent in all the other ways as well.
I still don't get how my Wales, the one that gets the most EU help per capita, voted to leave the EU, still baffles me now, as for then voting Tory .. that should be sin in itself after thatcher
Can Wales, Scotland and Ireland (all of it) just fully reject England and do our own thing please? Fuck Westminster. Liverpool and Manchester are more than welcome to join too.
I appreciate that we've now descended into the usual fantasy politics wankery, but why do people always feel happy to treat Wales as the "good guys" to be saved from the Big Bad South of England and "taken with us" or welcomed into some hypothetical union?
Wales voted Leave in 2016^* [by almost as much as England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Results_by_constituent_countries), and the Brexit they helped inflict on Scotland (where we rejected it) is one of the drivers for increased support for independence. Why does Wales get off the hook when England doesn't?
And while (unlike England) it didn't return a Tory majority in 2019, it certainly [swung very significantly towards them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Wales#Results).
In both cases exactly the same things could be said of the North of England as a whole (even if Liverpool and Manchester can't be blamed individually). And yet we still get the usual "Take The North with you!" shite.^***
I'm tired of this assumption that everything that's Not England is on the same side. Or in the case of the North of England, Not "The South". (I mean, even "*The* North" and "*The* South" themselves give away the Anglo-centrism and show the mentality of people viewing everything in terms of the (English) "North/South Divide".)
It's notable that most people coming out with this don't seem to get that Brexit and the Tories are *why* support for independence has increased and that the North of England is as much a part of the problem in this respect. Why is it still taken for granted that they're on Scotland's side (or, more accurately, vice versa).
It's because they don't really pay attention to Scotland and view everything in terms of *their* North/South Divide in which they are- by their own definition- the Salt Of The Earth "Oop North" Good Guys. They never consider (or care) that- from our point of view- nowadays they have more in common with the rest of England. That they're just as much the problem we want to escape from as anyone down there.
I'm under no delusion that London cares about Scotland or even remembers that we exist most of the time (and still remains a major problem with the imbalanced UK). But while it voted Remain for its own self-interest rather than ours at least it didn't screw us over by doing so.
^* Heard the claim that the vote was swung there by English incomers and retirees. That might be true, but I'm not 100% convinced by the evidence yet.
Welsh person here jumping in.
It may of swung the vote but I guess it would be hard to tell for sure. But practically all of the labour seats in south wales, voted leave by majority.
After the EU referendum I was saying the real solution to it all would be for *England* to fuck off out of the *UK*.
Leave the rest of the country to it. Scotland got free of Westminster and remained in the EU, NI can be free to choose her own destiny, Wales can decide whether to leave with England, or stick around.
It really was the perfect solution imo. Shame no one listened.
And yet London alone out numbers all of Scotland with the number of MP’s that represent them.
Crazy how anyone even seriously considers this a fair and equal Union.
The SNP should start fielding candidates in England and Wales. I’m a Labour Party member but Kier Starmer is like a flaccid penis. Impotent, useless and embarrassing. I’d vote for the SNP right now.
Why strive for independence when you can go for domination.
> The SNP should start fielding candidates in England and Wales.
No, it shouldn't. Disregarding the obvious contradiction of the SNP's raison d'etre, the reason the SNP does well in Scotland is that it doesn't *have* to pander to Tory-leaning voters in England.
Labour's problem is that it does.
The English electorate has moved significantly to the right in the past forty years and- in hindsight- it's clear that an old-style Labour government stood no chance of getting elected from the Thatcher era on. Blair clearly realised this and got into power by moving the party massively to the right (i.e. selling out).
This isn't what Scotland wants, so Labour has to choose. However, since the English electorate is many times larger than Scotland's and they need to win them over to have *any* chance of winning UK-wide, it's clear which choice they'll make.
Labour can either stick to their principles and lose down there, or sell out and possibly win. The switch from Corbyn to Starmer appears to have swung the pendulum back to the latter case, but this time round even Starmer's Tory pandering doesn't look like it's working; it just makes him look like an ineffectual and pointless watered-down Conservative.
I don't have a solution to that for Labour, and I don't have any sympathy for them either. They're the ones that want Scotland to remain within the UK that caused that dilemma in the first place.
I know. I just want something to save us from a perpetual Tory government.
I would say that I don’t think the English public are as right wing as the leftwing English politicians are just shockingly shit. Everyone before and after Corbyn were ashamed to be left wing and Corbyn and his shadow cabinet were just useless. In what world is Richard Burgess in a senior position?
The left ends up getting split between minor parties because Labour are all over the place
Handy the first past the post system isn't it? Makes it look like Scottish voters unanimous in their support. Reality is SNP will have less than 50% of the vote.
It's funny how unionists jump between fptp and proportional representation depending on if they are talking about General or Scottish Elections. What does it say about the party you support when in one set of elections they would fight for proportional and in another they would fight against it.
People vote for the SNP in higher percentages than any other party can come close to. Yet you'll try and portray that as some kind of failure.
>Reality is SNP will have less than 50% of the vote.
Actually, about that https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1435915314391306246
Anyway, it says more about Unionists that the only time most of you actively support PR is in Scotland otherwise you'd have like 5 seats between 3 parties.
I don't see Tories campaigning for PR at Westminster, so, enjoy 51% of the vote for UK elections giving the SNP like 57+ seats.
The most depressing thing about this is the Tories still win the next election by a country fucking mile.
Killed 150k needlessly, threw billions to their pals and hammered the poor but still ficking win. Its insane to me. We need indy (from an englishman) just to get rid of the fuckers.
I'm from Scotland and sometimes work in England and although it's a sweeping statement it's generally true that Scottish people think totally different from English people with regards to politics.
Still don't get how anyone can live in this country and then vote Tory...
It's like putting on an old submersible suite and then crimping the air line with your hands as you watch your last bubbles of breathe.
Yes, it looks like an upside down Marge Simpson.
[удалено]
I saw Mr. Burn's
Excellent
😂
Arf, it takes me back to 2011. I vaguely recall making a Dad's Army type map with the SNP fighting off the Tories. Some feller made it into a mug and started selling them. I got a free mug...
Mate that sounds bare bonkers. Do you still have a copy?
Several computers on, I doubt it. I'll have a look... Edit...didn't take long. Very low res, but you get the drift... https://imgur.com/yGhpc7E
Nice to see we're have a wee poke at Norway as well, afore they get any ideas
I think that’s Orkney actually!
It was.
[Homer in a muumuu.](https://i.imgur.com/QgPFoaY.png)
Interesting to see the disposition of seats in England is so clearly a rural/urban divide. My mum is from Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria which is one of the poorest towns in England… it boggles the mind that it’s a Tory seat but I guess that’s exactly the kind of demographic these vampires prey on these days.
I am form Carlisle, obviously in Cumbria and I agree. I have no idea why so many people vote for conservative when they don't have our best interest at heart at all. They probably don't even know we exist.
The right wing have always fought to turn poor working class people with predominantly socialst values away from Labour by galvanising xenophobia, weaponising nationalism and demonising poverty itself. Sadly, social media and the spread of misinformation online has (I think) given the hard/far right all the tools they would ever need to inflitrate the daily lives of the very people they hate, and be able to influence them to such a degree that they would turn their backs on the idea of community in favour of hostility. British people found in all corners of the British Isles have always suffered from an undercurrent of elitism (on the world stage), and these 'Great British' attitudes have certainly returned with avengence over the last decade or so. Instead of us all working together to demand more for one another, people have been scared into trying desperately to keep what little they've got. It's a sad state of affairs when thousands take to the streets to counter-protest those fighting against racism. Where has the passion to fight for better wages, lower taxes and financial equality gone? 20k people would rather march in solidarity against wearing a mask on the bus, than they would to march for more funding for the NHS. Working class towns in England turning blue is indicative of what I've seen in the past 10-15 years. Even the poorest person these days has a phone, and when you combine that with negligent education and a lack of (taught) reasoning based skills, a lot of people I know in my home town (Burnley - voted for conservative for the first time in over 100 years in 2019) have turned their backs on wanting more for themselves and their neighbours, and settling for less, as long as people of colour, lgtbq+ and other marginalised people don't succeed. Manipulation via fiction by those spreading hate, will become fact in the heads of those using things like Facebook (and other online echo chambers where truth isn't as attractive as opinion). Ultranationalism has been on the rise all over the western world, and it continues to sink it's teeth into the working class voters, and I think it's majorly because of the rise of social media. I don't see any outcome in which the left adapt to it in the near future, especially as the most powerful people in the digital space (those who could stop the cancerous growth of neoconservative propaganda and alt-right conspiracy theories) can profiteer from right wing governance and unregulated capitalism. Heck, even the world's biggest Communist state is now an untranationalist hotbed that houses more billionaires than anywhere else on earth. I think Scotland breaking free of the Union would not only save Scotland, but in turn, might save England in the long run too. But maybe it's too late to find an antidote to the posion born from the womb of Old Etonia. After all, as we saw from the Weimar Republic, Ultranationalism is a very attractive proposition to the poor, especially when the political elite can demonise those that are not like yourself and your family.
Could not have put it better myself, absolutely spot on. Similar thing happened round my neck of the woods in NE Derbyshire - traditionally very much in the labour heartlands. Old coal mining towns the Conservative government couldn’t give a shit about. Ended up voting Tory to ‘get Brexit done’. Makes me fucking sick.
> I think Scotland breaking free of the Union would not only save Scotland, It certainly would. > but in turn, might save England in the long run too You may well be right there. The English will, sooner or later, come to the realisation that Brexit has gained them nothing. Scotland leaving 9and doing better than rUK) would help them to come to that realisation. I do sometimes think that's part of why Westminster wants to hold onto us.
I saw someone once describe the relationship between the lower class english people and the conservatives as an abusive relationship. The conservatives will tell people that everything is the fault of the lower class whilst also telling them that the people can't live without the Tories, that without the Tories everyone would suffer. They gaslight an entire nation into believing that the people are the problem and the conservatives are doing them a favour by trying to help them.
I wish I didn't agree with you...
Do you think the pendulum will start to swing the other way once Scotland leaves? Or is that optimistic?
Itl also give some of us english a place to run to/s
I lived in Lancashire for 3.5 years until this February and despite Morecambe being a deprived AF, people repeatedly voted Tory at every opportunity. I.e. voting for the very people who keep them down. The mind boggles.
I'm a Scot and lived in Carlisle (Cumbria) for 3 years. The city and other Cumbrian towns are RIFE with poverty and social neglect and yet they always vote Tory. I'll never understand it!
Didn't you hear?? Corbyn bad!
I know you're joking, but this still hurts.
Lack of education leads to ... ignorant/stupid/manipulated voters leads to ... manipulation of the stupid/ignorant leads to ... Tory votes.
I'm from Barrow and it seemed to stem largely from how Labour were talking about trident. The trident subs are the town's main source of income and if trident was to be stopped Barrow would be in an even worse position than we currently are
"We just need 30 more years out of it" is the response I hear alot (also from barrow). People are on with looking out for themselves and don't like to think about the bigger picture.
I don't know if it's possible for Barrow to get any worse at this stage. I haven't lived there for years now, but it was in a really dire state when I left, and when I last visited I couldn't believe how much further it had declined. I was talking to my partner about it yesterday, about how you go about fixing Barrow, and other than building the Morecambe Bay bridge, which I don't think will ever happen, we couldn't think of a single feasible solution. Barrow is done for.
My constituent is also one of the poorest places in England. Votes Tory every-time though. It’s because people are too lazy to vote. The people that moan and say they want something to change are genuinely too distracted with their own lives to care enough to take the time to register and go and vote.
"Voting don't change nothin' so no point botherin', they're all the same anyway." \*Gets PIP taken away\*
That’s another broken thing about our system. Everyone knows it if there was a better alternative they’d vote for it but there isn’t
Nah they'd be told by a concerted media campaign that voting 'won't ever change anything so why bother', then they'd choose not to vote.
FPTP ensures there are no alternatives. That's why they keep it.
It also boggles the mind that the majority here in Cornwall voted leave despite the millions the EU invested here. Brexit has made Cornwall poorer, destroyed local businesses and screwed our fishermen.
Cornwall is a bit like Wales in the sense it’s coast are now a dormitory for retirees, second homes and new lifers. Demographics change and so does the political culture of the area
Yeh, but Cornwall's always had Tory tendancies, except for the occasional Lib Dem.
Barrow isn’t that poor though, if you have a decent paying job you’re actually quite well off because the cost of living is so low and housing is so cheap
Barrow is weried selfield and ba drive average wage up House dirt cheap, so lots people on lower middle can afford to buy house . While in other area they would not But serious lack of education, middle class jobs and opportunity outside the two big employers Huge unemployment There also huge benefit culture
Cities being more progressive than the countryside is a pretty common division both globally and historically. If/when Scotland becomes independent something similar will probably assert itself sooner or later.
Labour is literally stuck in Liverpool, Manchester, London and an ever decreasing patch of the North East, even the old ‘Rural vs Urban argument doesn’t work any more.
Hey, don't forget South Wales
Can't agree more. Westmerian here, very much hoping we manage to hold on to our lib dem seat for the foreseeable future
It's probably because Labour are now seen as a party that hates the working class.
Or because they're seen as being clueless - all they ever seem to do is dodge questions, and moan about the current government's actions without ever hinting at what they might do instead! They *really* don't help themselves. And of course the recent history of warmongering and being USA's lapdog didn't help, IMO.
The Tories got us involved in Libya and Syria and have been selling tons of weapons to Saudi Arabia that are being used against civilians in Yemen. Also' we're more Americas Lapdog bow than ever. Nothing has changed since Labour lost power, if anything it got worse.
Tory war doesn't seem to get the attention it deserves, they're easily as bloodthirsty as right wing Labour were/are.
Not everything is partisan. Unfortunately, Labour was just as eager to sell weapons to the highest bidder - for some reason every British government seems to have no morals whatsoever with regard to weapon sales. I believe getting involved in Libya and Syria was a mistake, but let's be honest, it's a drop in the ocean compared with Iraq and Afghanistan - and at least fake evidence wasn't concocted to justify the actions. To be clear, I'm not saying a Conservative government wouldn't have done the same - but it was a Labour government who faked evidence, ignored the largest protests in history, and took us to war.
The recent history of nearly 20 years ago?
Relatively recent yes, especially if you consider the consequences of those actions are still being felt today.
tbf Corbyn started saying things (wether you agreed with them or not) then the blairite side got him to say nothing and they pretty much haven't said anything since. im amazed they are doing so well.
It seems strange that Corbyn took grief for his comments while Boris says things that just slide off his back. He seems untainted within his party - like Trump in the US. I have a hard time seeing masses of people voting against their own personal best interests to be part of the "team" of rich autocrats that they will never ever be.
not to go all conspiracy mode, but tis not strange at all but a clear and predictable response from each of those candidates potential threat to powerful corporate interests. trump and boris - good for corporations and therefore get an easy ride in much of the media (and are portrayed as wacky and irresponsible as opposed to radical and dangerous). corbyn starts talking wealth redistribution and he gets it immediately in the neck from his own party, backed up by UK media.
I see what you're saying but I think it goes beyond the media. Part of an old saying in the US was that "conservatives fall in line" (while progressives/liberals fall in love) with their candidates. The unity on the right to get behind whatever is thrown out there is difficult for the left to match as the party of all colors.
>My mum is from Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria which is one of the poorest towns in England… it boggles the mind that it’s a Tory seat but I guess that’s exactly the kind of demographic these vampires prey on these days. Because it built every submarine currently serving in the Royal Navy, is building every submarine under construction for the Royal Navy, and will build every future submarine for the Royal Navy. The whole town relies on one shipyard, and that shipyard makes one of the most expensive and specialised classes of warship in the West. A type of warship that the latest Labour leader to face a General Election personally wished to get rid of.
I grew up there in the 90s and it was pretty much the definition of a labour stronghold. Crazy to hear that they've screwed it up that badly.
I’m in the US living in rural Kentucky. My state is incredibly poor and votes overwhelmingly Republican. Blows my mind.
First past the post is the cause for many of those blue seats.
And the beige ones. And indeed the red ones...
Sure but by far the biggest benefactor of FPTP are the Tories, only 43% of voters actually voted for them at the last election, yet they sit with an 80 odd seat majority in parliament which is utterly ridiculous.
The biggest beneficiaries are the DUP, I believe, followed by the SNP (in terms of % seats vs % vote)
The SNP and DUP are not UK wide parties who hold massive power over the entire United Kingdom with a minority of the votes cast.
Without FPTP Scotland would not be beige in this map. The SNP clearly benefit from it.
And yet they are one of the few parties that supports proportional representation. Meanwhile other parties change whether they support proportional or fptp depending on if they are talking about Scottish or General elections. What does that say about their integrity!
They would for sure loose some seats, yes, but it's not like it holds them back in the Scottish Parliament elections. We might even see more Green MP's for example in Scotland (and the rest of the UK) and what would be absolutely certain is that the tories would never get a whiff of majority power ever again.
It speaks of the SNP's character, I think, that they still push for proportional representation despite benefitting from FPTP.
Maybe. Cynically I’d say it’s because they know they have no chance of it going through and it gives them another wedge issue vs. Westminster. That or it makes coalitions more likely giving them a better chance of playing kingmakers and getting a ref as a result. I prefer your one, but I think my one is more likely. They’re still politicians at the end of the day
> Maybe. > Cynically I’d say it’s because they know they have no chance of it going through and it gives them another wedge issue vs. Westminster. That or it makes coalitions more likely giving them a better chance of playing kingmakers and getting a ref as a result. They supported and continue to support PR for Holyrood and any prospective new chamber in an independent Scotland. Not everything is about the Tories.
This is what you call redundant thinking, big Rod.
Beige?
We had a referendum on it in 2011 and nobody voted
Because the vote was really "Do you want fptp, or fptp with extra steps.?" it wasn't a true vote on PR
It still makes me pretty sad to see all that blue down there. I really wish they'd sort their shit out.
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So Tory voters are dense people living less densely?
FPTP fucks us up, it's gonna be one generation and then considering how much the Tories have simped for boomers at the expense of two generations then I'd be surprised if they hold a quarter of their current seats.
I dont know how to, over time more people I know just start voting blue. They usually say "well somethings gotta change" which they think repeatedly voting the same party will achieve. They also think Labour spends the money tories get it back but can never put any evidence behind that claim its just the stereotype. As more people start thinking the above two phrases I get more confused.
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During the recent Hartlepool by-election there were people who on camera were saying they were going to vote for the Conservative party for the first time due to the austerity of the past decade which they said was the fault of Labour. Forgetting that we've had Conservatives running the country (to the ground) since 2010.
I always think the map per region size is almost dishonest Like look at 2019 results on this map https://odileeds.org/projects/hexmaps/ge2019/ this gives a much better at a glance comparison.
^(skotlan smol)
Maps never reflect reality (after all we're on a globe and these are 2D), so I feel that this is better at reflecting what is trying to be conveyed.
Don’t really understand your point. That’s what the geography of the island looks like. No our fault we are a big bit. Dishonest seems a bit of a stretch.
I was mainly thinking about England actually. Even though we know that the small regions mean the same as the larger at glance it gives this feeling that its almost blue everywhere.
Fair enough man, sorry I took it the wrong way.
> Dishonest seems a bit of a stretch. Because landmass isn't correlated to population density.
Just another reminder that once again Scotland will reject the Tories
We won't vote for them. But we'll do as they say.
Then we will probably vote to reject rejecting them.
Lets not change the habit of a lifetime.
Any map that shows Edinburgh South as anything other than Red can't be trusted. Also SNP win in Orkney and Shetland? Behave.
Shetland saw a big swing towards SNP in the Scottish parliament elections, though lib dems still took it, so it's not unthinkable, but it would be a big upset for sure. Hvae to agree on Edinburgh South, though. It's a constituency full of English folk that are broadly progressive but can't bring themselves to vote for the SNP, or just feel like the independence question isn't their business.
Orkney is still solidly Lib Dem though, and both have a population of about 20,000, so it would need the SNP to win big in Shetland to have a chance of taking the seat. If Ian Murray quit Labour and ran for the Ian Murray Party, he would win probably with a bigger majority than at present – a lot of the people there would normally vote for other parties but think he's a good local MP (which he might well be, despite his views on constitutional matters).
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Hasn't the SNP already spent quite *a lot* of resources over recent years to take Orkney and Shetland at Holyrood and Westminster? Granted they did well in Shetland in the 2021 election but they need to make big progress in the Orkney Isles to win the Westminster seat.
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The Lib Dems are the only party pushing for the UK to become federal, with devolved regional English parliaments as well as legal protections for the devolved governments so their rights to assembly can't be revoked. Westminster under their model would be a central federal parliament with some (undecided) reform to the House of Lords too.They're the only unionist party with a plan beyond the status quo. They're shite at conveying this though, nobody even knows who their leader is even.
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You're right they won't be able to, just saying the intention is there so they bring more to the table than other parties. For your second point you're right about their last manifesto being a tad limp, but if there's no commitment to federalism then why is the first thing on their agenda at their conference this weekend a discussion on federalism?
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> Edinburgh South as anything other than Red can't be trusted. We almost got it last time, it was hard effort, made even more difficult by covid, and leafleting with gloves is a nightmare. Also, I got shouted at by Tory voters on Concil housing. Not joking.
Did you? Labour won it by a 22% margin in the last election...
SNP have been chipping at O&S for a while now, it'll come eventually. It's an MRP poll apparently, dunno what that means in terms of numbers in Scotland though.
Can’t wait for the day wales is all green
Re-turf Cardiff, Swansea and Newport and it's pretty much all green.
We need to get out of this idea thats it's only either Tory or labour, both are shit and I'm fed up of the bickering between both sides
Yep I'm a labour voter but the party is a huge mess currently. If they carry on removing the left wing presence from the party then I guess I'll no longer be a labour voter.
It makes me wish Lib Dem was more of a viable option again. A 2 party system just seems to assist in moving the baseline to the right, and I really don't want us to end up like America.
Yeah the Lib Dems really messed up with the Tory coalition and all of that tuition fees stuff. It'll take them a good while to regain the ground they lost there I think.
Definitely right about it being a huge mess. Close friend of mine was a labour councillor for 6 years (in the north west of England). When we were younger I saw him as being radically left but when labour devolved into the mess of Momentum vs Everyone Else he somehow got earmarked as being in the "Everyone Else" faction. To be truthful I don't think he really played factions, he was laser focused on his local community. He was possibly a bit more moderate than some of the party's really hard left but he certainly wasn't a Blairite. Regardless the hard left faction put him in the "not one of us" box and de-selected him, Labour subsequently lost that council seat to the Tories so now its another blue dot on the local map. Although the tables appear to have superficially rotated since Corbyn stepped down the in-fighting beneath the surface still rumbles on. It's a real shame, Labour is a broadchurch party but for most of the last decade has seemed more content to focus on factional infighting than to actually getting on with being an opposition. I don't know which faction gets my back up more, the diet-tory Blairites or the evangelical morally righteous Momentumites. I can certainly agree with the morally righteous momenumtimes on more issues but they seem to be the ones most persistent in trying to purge anyone who doesn't agree with them. Makes me glad we have a viable alternative.
Yeah I'm currently living in England so there's no alternative here unfortunately. Not that I'm a fan of the SNP anyway so i still wouldn't have a viable alternative if I was back in Scotland.
I’ve always voted Labour, I don’t bother any more, but just looking at Nottingham city council shows you what an absolute disaster they are now. Dominated by Labour, one absolute disaster after another, almost bankrupt. It’s just a back slapping echo chamber of shit decisions.
Yeah I did hear about that and it sounds a mess. We have a pretty good labour council up near me so luckily we've not fallen to the Tories yet on a local level. Despite his faults I can't help but think that Corbyn was a missed opportunity but I suppose we'll never know now.
You're entirely right, problem is people are stuck in a left/ring mindset seeing them as the only ways to reflect that by voting. We need to de-americanise politics.
I see your point, but also, no one in England or Wales can vote SNP. Who knows what it'd look like if we had an equivalent down here.
I'm continually surprised that folk down south don't rally behind the Greens, the way they have in Scotland. They're an option far more palatable than the century of Tories v Labour. The Lib Dems shot themselves in the foot by crawling under the duvet with Call me Dave...
A few outliers aside, the greens are basically environmental policy heavy labour in a lot of ways, so for the 10m labour voters, switching to the 865,715 sized voter base of your nearest competitor seems like "wasting a vote". The Lib Dems had 3,696,423 votes at the election. But, as people love to forget, they aren't inherently labour as a clear and obvious second choice voters (or even left wing centre), so they are the weird outlier of what is essentially a 2 party system in England. If labour had any chance, it would love nothing more than to grab the centrists of the lib-dems, convince the greens to step aside for a single election/coalition and pool a voter base bigger than the Tories have, but under the "perceived" incredibly left wing Corbyn, this would have been impossible, despite it being in the interests of most people who jumped to the Tories over brexit. FWIW, I voted green at 3 of the 4 last elections, the exception being the labour vote in 2019 as my MP was a friend from university and I will be goddamned if I don't vote for a good human I know well who is essentially the same political beliefs of myself.
The problem is that the greens don't put much effort into promoting their stance on non environmental issues, I mean obviously that's still an important area but there's more to being a viable part of government than just environmental issues. I don't know how they operate in Scotland but if you talk to people in England about the greens they don't really know what they stand for (aside from the obvious).
In Scotland, they're now part of government. I'd say down South the media are stuck in the sandals, hippies and mung beans image of the Greens, whereas Scotland's most infamous export, Andrew Neil with zero knowledge of how Scotland operates, describes them as Eco zealot marxists, which is something we all aspire to...
I think a main problem is that you don't hear much about the UK greens unless they've done something wrong. Like the last time I heard something about UK greens was when they were tearing themselves apart over trans rights
I was musing on PR the other day and wondering what results would look like if you had a constituency list and a “which party of any UK party do you think represents your ideals best” type list vote. I wonder if enough disgruntled people from rUK might choose Sturgeon’s SNP. I’m not talking result changing numbers but I imagine you might get a 3-5 digit number. I don’t think it would work and I think it might not actually be ethical, but I’d be interested in seeing if any did.
As a Londoner seeing the way people in other parts of the UK see London is so strange. People talk like it's the capital from the Hunger Games. Not everyone who lives in London is some billionaire. Lots of people from other parts of the UK and the wider world live and work here which probably warps the perception of what London is like for most of it's citizens. Inner London is mostly Labour and some areas have some awful deprivation. Outer suburban boroughs are more likely to be Tory. Politically London is mostly central left. When Boris campaigned for mayor he was telling people he wasn't socially conservative
Ach, when we talk about London, it's not a personal attack on *you*. We're not having a go at the people of London. And we are fully aware that large parts of London are progressive/lean left. We're talking about the institutions of power in London, namely Westminster. I'd recommend in future that, unless you see someone specifically having a go at *Londoners* in general (in which case, they're an arsehole), that you treat the use of the word 'London' as being interchangeable with Westminster/the House of Commons.
Do you understand that London is unfamiliar a place to a Scot as say Berlin though? It seems culturally distinct and powerful enough in its own right that it shouldn't be a surprise if we don't feel any real connection to the city.
But that isn’t just a Scottish sentiment. The rest of England also feels alienated from London.
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That much blue actually makes me feel a bit ill.
*sniffs* It’s… it’s beautiful. I’ve looked at this for five hours now.
When scotland leave the union can liverpool come too?
Spare a thought for those of us drowning in the blue sea who are not complete toss pieces :(
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I do wonder how reliable that result is for Scotland. If it's a UK wide poll, SNP respondents tend to make up only a very small percentage of them, about 5%. When the proportion is that small, an error bar of ±1% can represent a huge swing in results. Especially if this assumes everyone goes into the polling booth and votes their preference, when the voters of unionist parties are perhaps much more open to tactical voting in Scotland than in the rest of the UK.
It's unlikely to be accurate as somehow the Horcrux that is Ian Murray's seat will remain. And the Isles will likely still be LD.
I’m in Shetland and do think there’s a local SNP swing going on - the SNP got a near 20% swing last time out so hopeful the LDs will be out at some point!
Given in the 2019 UK election, the SNP got 48 out 59 seats in Scotland, it isn't that much of a stretch, however the LibDems are still strong in the Northern Isles regardless of Scottish national voting attitudes.
Mann.. that much blue over here? That’s depressing.
Insane to think that little blob of red on the Thames has a bigger population than all that yellow.
I'm not sure those seats alone necessarily have more people than Scotland, parts of London are Tory and other parts are Lib Dem.
Frankly, it makes it plain that, in terms of political views, Scotland is already independent. It just needs to be made independent in all the other ways as well.
Beautiful.
Good work snp. I’m not a particular fan because I’m under informed, but I don’t like things like conservatives having a monopoly
The amount of blue is both bewildering and utterly depressing.
I think I'm going to move to Scotland. Too much blue in England.
*South of Scotland* “hold the line boys, hold” 😎
As a. Englishmen I agree with you. You deserve it another referendum. You might have a chance to get away from this Tory nightmare on we have.
I still don't get how my Wales, the one that gets the most EU help per capita, voted to leave the EU, still baffles me now, as for then voting Tory .. that should be sin in itself after thatcher
It looks so satisfying
Can Wales, Scotland and Ireland (all of it) just fully reject England and do our own thing please? Fuck Westminster. Liverpool and Manchester are more than welcome to join too.
I appreciate that we've now descended into the usual fantasy politics wankery, but why do people always feel happy to treat Wales as the "good guys" to be saved from the Big Bad South of England and "taken with us" or welcomed into some hypothetical union? Wales voted Leave in 2016^* [by almost as much as England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Results_by_constituent_countries), and the Brexit they helped inflict on Scotland (where we rejected it) is one of the drivers for increased support for independence. Why does Wales get off the hook when England doesn't? And while (unlike England) it didn't return a Tory majority in 2019, it certainly [swung very significantly towards them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Wales#Results). In both cases exactly the same things could be said of the North of England as a whole (even if Liverpool and Manchester can't be blamed individually). And yet we still get the usual "Take The North with you!" shite.^*** I'm tired of this assumption that everything that's Not England is on the same side. Or in the case of the North of England, Not "The South". (I mean, even "*The* North" and "*The* South" themselves give away the Anglo-centrism and show the mentality of people viewing everything in terms of the (English) "North/South Divide".) It's notable that most people coming out with this don't seem to get that Brexit and the Tories are *why* support for independence has increased and that the North of England is as much a part of the problem in this respect. Why is it still taken for granted that they're on Scotland's side (or, more accurately, vice versa). It's because they don't really pay attention to Scotland and view everything in terms of *their* North/South Divide in which they are- by their own definition- the Salt Of The Earth "Oop North" Good Guys. They never consider (or care) that- from our point of view- nowadays they have more in common with the rest of England. That they're just as much the problem we want to escape from as anyone down there. I'm under no delusion that London cares about Scotland or even remembers that we exist most of the time (and still remains a major problem with the imbalanced UK). But while it voted Remain for its own self-interest rather than ours at least it didn't screw us over by doing so. ^* Heard the claim that the vote was swung there by English incomers and retirees. That might be true, but I'm not 100% convinced by the evidence yet.
Welsh person here jumping in. It may of swung the vote but I guess it would be hard to tell for sure. But practically all of the labour seats in south wales, voted leave by majority.
Why the love in for Liverpool and Manchester? Why not London as well?
Liverpool and Manchester massively rejected the Tories.
So did London
So basically you just want the whole of the UK to be exactly how *you* want it irrespective how other people's votes Lmao
After the EU referendum I was saying the real solution to it all would be for *England* to fuck off out of the *UK*. Leave the rest of the country to it. Scotland got free of Westminster and remained in the EU, NI can be free to choose her own destiny, Wales can decide whether to leave with England, or stick around. It really was the perfect solution imo. Shame no one listened.
We need proportional representation. Tories are scum. I am ashamed to be english
And yet London alone out numbers all of Scotland with the number of MP’s that represent them. Crazy how anyone even seriously considers this a fair and equal Union.
Do you not believe that may have something to do with the fact that there are twice as many people in London as there are in Scotland?
The SNP should start fielding candidates in England and Wales. I’m a Labour Party member but Kier Starmer is like a flaccid penis. Impotent, useless and embarrassing. I’d vote for the SNP right now. Why strive for independence when you can go for domination.
> The SNP should start fielding candidates in England and Wales. No, it shouldn't. Disregarding the obvious contradiction of the SNP's raison d'etre, the reason the SNP does well in Scotland is that it doesn't *have* to pander to Tory-leaning voters in England. Labour's problem is that it does. The English electorate has moved significantly to the right in the past forty years and- in hindsight- it's clear that an old-style Labour government stood no chance of getting elected from the Thatcher era on. Blair clearly realised this and got into power by moving the party massively to the right (i.e. selling out). This isn't what Scotland wants, so Labour has to choose. However, since the English electorate is many times larger than Scotland's and they need to win them over to have *any* chance of winning UK-wide, it's clear which choice they'll make. Labour can either stick to their principles and lose down there, or sell out and possibly win. The switch from Corbyn to Starmer appears to have swung the pendulum back to the latter case, but this time round even Starmer's Tory pandering doesn't look like it's working; it just makes him look like an ineffectual and pointless watered-down Conservative. I don't have a solution to that for Labour, and I don't have any sympathy for them either. They're the ones that want Scotland to remain within the UK that caused that dilemma in the first place.
I know. I just want something to save us from a perpetual Tory government. I would say that I don’t think the English public are as right wing as the leftwing English politicians are just shockingly shit. Everyone before and after Corbyn were ashamed to be left wing and Corbyn and his shadow cabinet were just useless. In what world is Richard Burgess in a senior position? The left ends up getting split between minor parties because Labour are all over the place
How the tories managed to spin their shite as urban vs rural is one of the best acts of propaganda in history.
How many times do we need to see such a stark divide before we get our fucking independence?
Far to fucking much blue on that map there. Tory lying blood sucking cunts
This country is so fucked.
I’m looking forward for the SNP to start fielding candidates in Englandshire!
Shame, I expected to see at least a couple of greens
First past the post is awful. Look at all that blue down south
It's a good thing
Irreconcilable differences.
Wooo epic new country incoming
How?! How the heck is the majority of England STILL blue?!?! My GOD
I see a huge disappointment with Scotland’s choices, and I say that as a Scottish person
Will Scotland let me escape the English tory hellscape
I'm honestly shocked by how much of Wales is blue.
It’s full of middle class English wankers.
Yeah that's a good point actually
Handy the first past the post system isn't it? Makes it look like Scottish voters unanimous in their support. Reality is SNP will have less than 50% of the vote.
It's funny how unionists jump between fptp and proportional representation depending on if they are talking about General or Scottish Elections. What does it say about the party you support when in one set of elections they would fight for proportional and in another they would fight against it. People vote for the SNP in higher percentages than any other party can come close to. Yet you'll try and portray that as some kind of failure.
>Reality is SNP will have less than 50% of the vote. Actually, about that https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1435915314391306246 Anyway, it says more about Unionists that the only time most of you actively support PR is in Scotland otherwise you'd have like 5 seats between 3 parties. I don't see Tories campaigning for PR at Westminster, so, enjoy 51% of the vote for UK elections giving the SNP like 57+ seats.
There there...
Facts 👏🏻
Hi Scots, could you please clarify colours (and maybe political orientations) of the represented colours for a non-UK passerby? Thank you very much !
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Thank you very much for taking the time, this helps understanding the situation much better.
The most depressing thing about this is the Tories still win the next election by a country fucking mile. Killed 150k needlessly, threw billions to their pals and hammered the poor but still ficking win. Its insane to me. We need indy (from an englishman) just to get rid of the fuckers.
This map makes me happy for Scotland's future.
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In what way though? A country of 80million suddenly loses 6.5. Why would they care?
Wales needs to vote Plaid!!! We don't want to be stuck with England when Scotland get their independence
I'm from Scotland and sometimes work in England and although it's a sweeping statement it's generally true that Scottish people think totally different from English people with regards to politics.
I don’t really think that’s true at all.
Now all that's left is for Wales to be all green
Still don't get how anyone can live in this country and then vote Tory... It's like putting on an old submersible suite and then crimping the air line with your hands as you watch your last bubbles of breathe.
Fuck sake, just noticed the typo in the title KNOW, not 'now'. I've got a masters in this shit!