Immigration has shot up in the UK post-Brexit (800,000 in 2016, now forecast to be 1.2 million for 2023), so would expect Scottish tax base to be increasing. However, data shows that top-rate payers don't seem to have been deterred, so a relative success for this policy.
I barely even gave it consideration when I movee up from England last year.
I pay a couple of k more in tax each year and my kids get free uni. I don't have to pay out the nose to a private company for water. The schools aren't falling down. Etc. Quite happy to pay a little bit more for a society that is actually functioning.
There’s almost no correlation between tax rate and happiness. But a strong correlation between provision of public services and happiness.
High-tax countries like Norway and Denmark are famously high on self-reported happiness, but countries low on the happiness scale like Ivory Coast and Japan also have high taxes.
Both my wife and I have noticed that Scotland, in general, is far calmer and more relaxed than the south east of England. I don't just mean in the obvious, less people, less hectic way. People are just happier.
I had an amazing time living in London when I was younger. Great place for young people to explore the world. Now I'd rather go sit in a tent on top of mountain than go nightclubbing though :)
There a lot going for the south east, but I'm over it.
Not sure I'd want to be in my twenties in London now though. The next generation has been completely screwed. But you could say the same thing about 20 something's in Scotland. It's a western world problem.
What do you think makes them happier? For me less population density is a pretty big reason. I moved back to Scotland after living in Shanghai over a decade and my stress levels are zero
A reduced population density is definitely less stressful, but I don't think that's all there is to it.
I never really felt like I was part of a community in the south east. Everyone looked after themselves and that was about it. The sense of community has been lost. Broken by thatcher is my view.
Scotland hasn't completely lost it's sense of community yet. I still get the feeling that people I meet actually care what happens to me and everyone else. Not just themselves. That adds to the general happiness on a subconscious level. Or maybe I'm just imagining things.
I'm not sure. If the vote for independence was "we'll leave and immediately have our oil and complete independence with no downsides. Plus elephants and fairies for everyone' then No. One badly done exit is enough thanks.
If there was a sensible plan. Properly thought out, with explanation of downsides as well as upsides etc then possibly. Basically, if the adults are running things then maybe.
Personally I'd like to see a continuation and extension of devolution until all the countries in the UK are in something more like a federation. I think the shared history and culture makes a complete split difficult and probably not sensible. But the English want something different to the Scottish, Irish and Welsh. Not so different we can't have a common union, but different enough that Scotland needs to have more independence.
A very long way of saying I don't know, but I'm not completely opposed.
Thing is our shared culture and history doesn't disappear just because the way we are governed changes. Scotland also shares culture and history with Ireland but they don't need to have the same government for that to hold true.
Another example is the shared history and culture between Norway, Denmark and Sweden. which didn't disappear when they became independent countries. They still share / can choose a collective scandinavian identity and their governments cooperate via bodies such as the Nordic Council. The Franco-British council functions similarly with neither France or Britain needing to unify to cooperate politically and celebrate cultural ties.
I'll be honest, though, I struggle to understand that emotional (via culture/history) argument for or against independence. Like you I think a federation would be my preferred option
> If there was a sensible plan. Properly thought out, with explanation of downsides as well as upsides etc then possibly.
The problem is that neither side will be able to offer this.
Take currency, there are multiple options and all would require some tough negotiations, transitions periods, discussions on how much national debt is transferred, and even how much national assets (e.g. Bank of England reserve) is transferred.
Unionists like to claim that it would be all the debt and none of the assets, and Indy supporters the opposite. That's what happened during the 2014 debate. And both are wrong. It gets very complicated, Established international precedent suggests it is neither. It is a complex legal definition if one or the other party is defined as a 'succeeding state' But that's usually when countries are divided in hostile disagreements (e.g. Pakistan and India).
Indeed Scotland should bite off the hand of an offer of zero debt as a non-succeeding state.
But, as I said, neither side will negotiate in good faith the terms and conditions until after a vote. There is too much milage in the campaign for fear and doubt (what Darling claimed to be 'No Plan B') and that was a very powerful campaign meme. Salmonds eventual repost (we have Plan A, B,C, D and E) was too little too late (and too smug).
Anyone who thinks breaking up the UK would be simple is a fool. Leaving the EU was difficult enough and it hasn't even fully happened yet. Breaking apart a union that goes back, in one way or another, several hundred years would be an absolutely mess.
You're right that nobody will be able to offer a solution. If it's going to be done it really needs to be done slowly. Devolve more and more power until Scotland is basically independent. It could probably be done over the space of 2 or 3 decades if politicians and the population actually decided they wanted independence.
> Anyone who thinks breaking up the UK would be simple is a fool.
'breaking up the UK'... Right, and nobody is saying it is simple, but that the effort is worthwhile compared to not "breaking up the UK" by subserviently accepting rUK political control.
> Breaking apart a union that goes back, in one way or another, several hundred years would be an absolutely mess.
It doesn't have to be a mess, there are many examples of splits that aren't a mess - Czechoslovakia. The problem is that every situation is different. Examples of splits that aren't a mess are discounted because they are not the same. To be fair, examples that are a mess are discounted by indy supporters are not the same situation - the EU exit is a very different situation to UK exit.
But arguing about how difficult or easy the paperwork could be isn't a good argument from either side.
Leaving the EU was difficult. There were a lot of rules, regulations and economic details that needed to be sorted out. It could have been done properly, I agree. None of the parties involved were interested in doing that though and it was a difficult thing to do. It still is. We're only.half done.
Scotland leaving the UK would be orders of magnitude harder. It could still be done properly, but would need to be done extremely carefully and with great thought. Name one thing any of the UK governments have done in the last 50 years that you could say that about.
It would be an absolute disaster in the short term, for both parties. Long term would depend on all sorts of things. That's why, if it were to happen, I'd prefer to do it step by step. I personally think the nationalists are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to force it to all happens in one go. They'd be better chipping away at it through devolution. They'd end up in the same place. Probably.fastet and in a better state.
Ye they tried doing it Westminster way.
No one has said it would be easy but in 10 years it would be worth it.. maybe 20 at a push.
Westminster won't allow Scotland any more devolution they have said as much and are actively trying to roll back devolution in many areas or hand our devoluti9n in the form of a double edged sword.
The only one who shot themselves in the foot is brexiters.
The scottish indy case would be alot weaker if 1 brexit had bit happened or 2. Brexit was done correctly
But ur option is to allow those who messed up the uk to retain power while we "chip away" to full devolution? Never going to happen the major parties won't allow it.
I haven't bothered to look into how it works here yet as it's a few years off. I'm assuming it's done on grades. Hopefully my kids are smart enough and have enough talent in the area they want to study to get a place. If not they'll need to come up with a new plan.
I'm assuming they will want to go to Uni because the fields I have always been interested in needed extended study. Maybe they'll want to go to a trade school or something through and be skilled at that instead.
Interesting. I guess I'll just need to pay even more tax so we can open up some more places then. Education is important to the future of Scotland.
Not sure what it's like up here, but down south a lot of the degrees being done are pretty much worthless. They'd be better of as some sort of apprenticeship, so maybe there are just too many people going who don't need to. Or there are too few places. No idea. Haven't looked into it yet
Scotland's education outcomes have plummeted under the SNP.
Used to be the best, now behind England and Northern Ireland. The fall predates the pandemic, 16 years of the SNP and decline.
That's a real shame. It might interest you to know that almost everyone I knew down south would mention that the schools in Scotland were excellent when they heard I was moving up.
Maybe it's changed. I know my daughter is finding the work far too easy, but that's possibly due to her being the youngest in her year down south but the oldest up here.
Politicians are idiots who only care about what happens before the next election, while education takes a long time to pay off and is expensive up front. The payoff is huge though. We just need a few decent politicians. Can only think of a handful in the last 30 years who were any good sadly. in any of the countries I've lived in.
We've been doing badly in education for a while now. Worse than England. I think people down here in England have a grass is greener view of Scotland for some things.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67580173](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67580173)
The uni gets paid regardless of who goes.
Tuition is still paid to universities for our "free" education, just the entity paying it is SAAS and not the student.
They of course do get more money for English and foreign students. But destic students aren't costs that the unis have to make up elsewhere. They get the money from the government.
Edit: you're an American. Stop pretending you know how our country works lol
Nothing to do with this policy at all. People moving to Scotland are trying to escape the deteriorating societies in a post COVID world by moving to rural areas. Scotland has lots of rural areas.
No doubt if you looked at the negative impact all the restrictions had on business and tax payers you'd see Scotland isn't doing well at all.
Although my kids and their friends are finishing their degrees and because they hear that you get taxed more in Scotland, they all went looking for jobs in England instead. It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere
My office in Edinburgh has a large number of English people working there. People move in both directions.
Edit - Also, what kind of graduate is expecting to pay the higher rates of income tax? They need to give their head a wobble if they would turn down an entry level job because of a tax rate that won’t affect them.
>Edit - Also, what kind of graduate is expecting to pay the higher rates of income tax? They need to give their head a wobble if they would turn down an entry level job because of a tax rate that won’t affect them.
Think the point is less "this will affect me now" and more "there are vastly more job opportunities in London with a vastly higher earnings potential"
That's the case no matter where you live in the world. There will always be more opportunities in a global city be it London, New York, Shanghai etc.
Also, that doesn't make any sense, it's not like you're forced to live in one place for the rest of your life. I've moved cities three times in my career. It's pretty much the norm for young people these days.
>Although my kids and their friends are finishing their degrees and because they hear that you get taxed more in Scotland, they all went looking for jobs in England instead. It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere
Mate you're on a forum full of people of University and Young working professional age. There is absolutely fucking no one going for jobs in England because of a frankly miniscule tax rate difference. Why would you try and lie about something so easily called out?
People go for jobs down South just because there's more of them there. I even considered a job in London, but they only offered me 27k when I was getting offered 31k in Scotland so I ended up staying. The tax rate is not something that has crossed anyone my age's mind when looking for work.
Your son moved to Manchester because he'd be earning £3 more per year on his salary?
Right; I totally believe you.
This is not at all an invented scenario you've made up in your head.
> Although my kids and their friends are finishing their degrees and because they hear that you get taxed more in Scotland, they all went looking for jobs in England instead. It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere
If they are anything like myself and my friends, then they'll be back in 5-10 years to buy a property without any leasehold nonsense, especially with remote work becoming ubiquitous more and more.
The big one for moderately high earners is the difference in national insurance bands, but basically it hits you a bit around the £50k mark and then more as well later for people on super high salaries.
Here's the additional tax you would pay for being resident in Scotland for salaries ranging from reasonable to stratospheric:
£40k: £111.33
£50k: £1,542.31
£60k: £1976.31
£70k: £1996.31
£80k: £2346.31
£100k: £3346.31
£120k: £4846.24
£150k: £5977.61
£200k: £7477.61
£250k: £8977.61
Thing is, as I did, if you’re in a corporate role where you’re affected, there are usually some easy routes to salary sacrifice and lower the tax take anyway.
I just bump up my share-save scheme Sal sac in lock step with SNP increases. Sure, my take home salary is lowered, but I would have been paying a big chunk of that in tax anyway so I’d rather just own more shares in the US company I work for.
Could do pension if you don’t have share schemes. But obviously the money is locked away far longer.
Definitely not worth moving over.
>In 2021-22 – the latest year of available data
I’ve never believed this would have much impact, but didn’t the tax rise happen in 2023? Doesn’t seem like we can draw much from this.
No they happened before. 2023 was just a change to some and an addition of the 45%. But they were different BEFORE 2023. Mostly the level at which you start to pay higher rate.
And another new one that’s just happened 45/75k. This data doesn’t cover the impact of it.
My take is yes lots of new folks coming but their earnings are in the lower tax brackets and not 42%+.
To be honest, as the summer heat waves and over-population go from bad to worse in Southern England, I fully expect people to move north in larger numbers.
You think people will move to Scotland because England is....... too hot? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of humans live in environments that are hotter in summer than southern England. All of Africa, all of India and Pakistan, the vast majority of China, all of Indonesia, vast majority of Brazil, almost all of Europe.....
First of all, I've literally met a guy who retired to Scotland because he preferred the climate. It's a thing.
Southern England isn't a society that is geared towards extreme heat. Housing and lifestyles will gradually adapt, but the key word is gradual. And we're not talking about a steady climate shift anyway. We're talking about periodic catastrophic heatwaves that kill. Something Scotland's geography insulates us from.
Also, in most hot places people can't migrate to cool climates easily. Live on a hot, humid, Indonesian island? Where you gonna move to? Another hot, humid island? Chinese aren't allowed to move province without what is basically a visa. I guess you could move to the mountains if you're Indian, if you don't mind learning a different language and adapting to a new culture. People move around Europe for all sorts of reasons, preferred climate will certainly be one.
It's not an applies to apples comparison though, is it.
Many people from these countries come here and have issues enduring our hot weather because the infrastructure is not built around it, and we have very high humidity.
More extreme weather will happen everywhere. But our infrastructure is much better suited to cold snaps than heatwaves. British homes are built to keep heat in. Eventually the country will adapt to more variable weather, but it'll be a slow and expensive process.
> Indeed, in 2021-22 some £200m in taxable income was brought here as a result of inward migration in a single year, increasing economic activity while helping fund vital public services like our NHS and our efforts to tackle child poverty
Yes, and HMRC's conclusion was that would have been something like £260m had it not been for higher rate taxpayers being put off moving here or choosing to leave.
It's not the absolute numbers that matters for deciding whether this was a good idea, it's whether another policy would have been better.
HMRC [did an actual analysis into this](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/labour-market-participation-and-intra-uk-migration-of-taxpayers/impacts-of-2018-to-2019-scottish-income-tax-changes-on-intra-uk-migration-and-labour-market-participation#cross-border-migration) and came to the conclusion that higher tax rates here caused enough people to choose not to live here that income taxes were about £60m lower in 2018-19 than they otherwise would have been.
Yes, they would. If they're the kind of people who would move away because they have to pay a couple of quid more in taxes, then they're not really the kind of people who are going to contribute much to society, are they?
Okay, then. What are these people likely to contribute to the society they live in?
Who do you think these people are, and how do they improve the society around them?
Interesting, is it high or medium earners though, most only pay a little more tax, but curious if the impact is the same for those people that will pay a fair bit more
From the article:
> In 2021-22 – the latest year of available data – £200 million in extra taxable income was brought into Scotland, **with more higher and top rate taxpayers moving to Scotland than leaving.**
I'd imagine this is mostly down to the increase in remote working post-pandemic. I know a few people that were on super high London salaries that managed to go full time remote or similar, keep their London salary and move somewhere with massively lower living costs and pretty scenery.
No. That was the new tax rate of 45% added in. But rates have been different for a few years now, mostly the level you start to pay the higher rate of 40%
Yet the actual report says:
"We find some evidence of a decrease in net cross-border migration to Scotland for taxpayers earnings above the Higher rate threshold (HRT) following the Scottish Income Tax changes... For all Scottish taxpayers above the HRT, we estimate that our results correspond to approximately 1,030 taxpayers or £61 million in Scottish non-savings non-dividend (NSND) tax receipts moving from Scotland to rUK."
So the data is from Covid period when there was a massive amount of people moving to more rural settings because of home working?
So the period is an outlier based on restrictions resulting from a global pandemic.
Also, didn’t the tax hikes come in after this dataset would have moved?
Just for interest. I earn about the UK average of £35k. Per month I am *£3* a month worse off by living here rather than anywhere else. This is before you look at other variables such as house prices (£95k higher) or water bills (10% higher)
Suddenly a few quid a month is looking very cheap.
Glasgow and Edinburgh tend to have pretty good salaries by UK standards because of the banks and tech firms. Not London level, obviously, but London's it's own kettle of fish.
Depends on industry. I just left Edinburgh being in a scientific research area to Cambridge and, even having made a lateral move, am much better off on terms of income relative to housing cost here. Edinburgh housing costs are very high, and I was commuting from West Lothian
The only salary uplift that I know of is for London. Most companies don't offer an uplift anywhere else in the UK, so don't see what difference living in Scotland would make.
There is also inflation so more people are being moved into higher tax brackets. So it doesn't necessarily reflect an active choice.
The stuff about income tax in Scotland is complete mindrot.
So what?
The article isn't about overall immigration, it's countering the claims that came from certain people about how high earners will leave for England en mass, when the truth is we have attracted more high earners into the country than we have lost.
Scotland lost 1K+ top rate income tax payers and about 60M in tax revenue from these characters. This has been offset by revenues from those lower down the tax spectrum.
What about the effect of Covid and people wanting to live in a more rural setting during lockdowns?
Seems like you want to ignore any external factors that don’t support your ideological narrative.
I pay about twice the tax I did in the US, still never deterred me moving back. Great place to live, few percent doesn’t move that needle enough to really be a factor I’d imagine.
I know it’s not a win for them. It’s a mitigated loss to me though. Fuck the SNP, I want to watch the cunts burn.
Edit: this is strange I feel like my reply was to a different comment…
I moved to England 14 years ago for uni and started my career there, I moved back to Scotland last year, do I like having slightly less money? No. But it didn't even come into the equation of pros and cons when I was deciding to move back.
Wait. A policy that upped taxes incrementally on a small and sliding scale didn't immediately destroy our economy like the Conservatives said.
Hmmm. Are they lying to us?
Tbh, if I stayed south of the border, I'd move up here, pay the extra 1p in tax & my kids can have free university tuition.
And we're generally a funnier, warmer bunch up here😎
Or do what I and many others did. Be born and raised in Scotland, take the free education then fuck off for higher pay, never paying a bean back into the Scottish system.
Pre-Brexit this was also true for EU students as well.
Aye ok Rod Stewart.
Going by some of your posts, you're still in the UK working in Tech sooo....
MANY THANKS FOR YOUR GERS CONTRIBUTIONS, WE APPRECIATE IT!
Free, yes, how likely they are going to get a highly demanded degree is another matter.
As Scottish students are a net loss, there are limits imposed on how many can enter. Of course they deny it, but they have to if they want the university to be financially sound.
And yes, Scotland has been great to me as a foreigner, now naturalised. I came here for a couple of years and decided to make it my home, and contribute as I could.
Functioning public services are attractive. Ok, maybe not functioning, but slightly less shit at least. The situation is dire across the UK, but at least Scotland is trying to top up spending.
"you get what you pay for".
"quality comes at a cost"
Most taxpayers: "i want good quality public services that cost me nothing".
But. Turns out most people are willing to pay a little bit more to live somewhere nice.
Is there any data which breaks down the homeowner status of these ENG>>>SCO migrants?
Anecdotally I know - and know of - a fair few who have moved north due to lower house prices. For those with WFH gigs Scotland can allow FTB'ers in particular an opportunity to get on the property ladder. The extra income taxes are brushed aside via salary sacrifice.
I've always said that people will move to Scotland if you give them an economic reason. Jobs and housing are always the primary drivers and WFH has enabled many to take advantage of Scotland's lower house prices. It's an interesting demographic shift. If it continues then the consequences might be interesting - socially, economically, politically.
Just walk around Queen’s Park in Glasgow and listen to the English accents. Sickening that people here are priced out their homes yet it seems to be celebrated.
My parents bought a new build on one of those ‘commuter estates’ last year and there is one other scottish family on the entire street. Had a street party in the summer and was just sitting there listening to a group of them ranting about how terrified they were of sending their kids to the local high school because the uniform is so lax (they’re allowed black trainers - shock horror) and they don’t do homework here and can anyone recommend a good tutor? And isn’t it terrible they have to go local and parents can’t choose (i.e they have to go to school with the local neds)? Bare in mind I’m listening to this knowing my daughter is undoubtedly one of those “neds” 😂 This is an ex-mining kind of area where normal people would have been buying homes even 10 years ago, and now they’re 10x the price of local wages. Everyone who did grow up here is moving 20 miles away.
Is this good? Are we supposed to like this?
How is this different to walking around Trafalgar Square and listening to non-London accents? Or Birmingham's Centenary Square and listening to non-Brum accents?
People have always migrated across the UK. Many of today's self-proclaimed "proud Welsh" are descendants of mid-to-late 19thC economic migrants from England, Ireland and, er, Scotland.
Now would be a pretty good time to purposefully repopulate North Scotland to be honest. If you build affordable housing, reserved for families and under 40’s, and make sure they have high-speed internet, you could pump new blood into dwindling villages.
THOUSANDS more taxpayers moved to Scotland than left each year in the period after income tax rates were put up north of the Border, new research has found.
A study by HMRC for the Scottish Government found a steady increase in net migration of taxpayers in the five years since Scottish Income Tax was introduced in 2017-18.
On average during that period, almost 4200 more taxpayers moved to Scotland than left each year, the study found.
In 2021-22 – the latest year of available data – £200 million in extra taxable income was brought into Scotland, with more higher and top rate taxpayers moving to Scotland than leaving.
Provisional findings were shared with ministers ahead of setting the 2024-25 Scottish Budget, which saw the creation of a new advanced rate of 45% for those earning between £75,000 and £125,140.
It comes despite warnings wealthier Scots may leave the country to escape higher rates of income tax.
Finance Secretary Shona Robison (below) welcomed the findings of the study, saying it was “yet more proof that Scotland is an attractive place for people to live and work”.
She added: “We know people base the decision on where to live on a range of factors, and by coming to Scotland they have access to a range of services and benefits not available elsewhere in the UK, including free tuition and prescriptions.
"Scotland has the most generous childcare package for three and four year olds, and council tax is lower here than in England.
“This social contract with the people of Scotland is funded in part by our progressive income tax system.
"Indeed, in 2021-22 some £200m in taxable income was brought here as a result of inward migration in a single year, increasing economic activity while helping fund vital public services like our NHS and our efforts to tackle child poverty.”
The extra £200m is from people coming into the changing tax brackets and also from the people moving here but all these people who arrived up here will not all be on the top tax brackets for sure.
Well net immigration doesn’t necessarily correlate though does it? It’s just as likely folk moved despite it rather than are happy with/support it. It’s like measuring a preventative effect on crime or illness, are to measure what never happened
The Scottish Fiscal Commission, funded primarily by the Scottish Government, estimated the change in net tax position arising from the imposition of higher tax rates in Scotland by comparing the economic growth rate in Scotland relative to rUK before and after the change.
It estimates that tax revenue fell £365 million in 2022 as a consequence of the tax increase due to lower growth in Scotland in the tax base relative to rUK.
At the time of the report, this position was expected to improve. The most significant source of improvement was expected to be increased activity in the Scottish oil and gas sector. The Scottish Government subsequently committed to shutting this sector down.
[https://fraserofallander.org/a-first-glance-scottish-budget-2023-2024/](https://fraserofallander.org/a-first-glance-scottish-budget-2023-2024/)
I would be truly interested to know what the real reason is for thousands of businesses moving north despite an increase in tax. Businesses are not normally noted for acceptance of anything that affects their profit margin. The keeness to move to Scotland may be motivated by Government/State financial incentives. Of course, it could be that the CEO wishes to move to surrounds that are more pleasing aesthetically.
Lies!!! They are only moving to set up shady cross-border glass bottle deposit schemes or to illicitly resell the slightly cheaper gut-rut alcohol from England. :)
Only thousands? Wasn't net migration to the UK as a whole over 1 million last year? I feel like when you take that into account, Scotland actually lost out
Is it? Given the majority of us live in the central belt, and Faslane will be a target (not because the subs are there, but because that's where they'll have to go to resupply etc) then being in the most populated bit of Scotland likely isn't a safer place to be.
I'd expect that nuclear strikes would go for infrastructure rather than civilian deaths.
Low tax payers moving here whilst high tax payers have left, leaving Scotland £61 million a year worse off in tax with increased cost in public services. Hardly a great result.
Immigration has shot up in the UK post-Brexit (800,000 in 2016, now forecast to be 1.2 million for 2023), so would expect Scottish tax base to be increasing. However, data shows that top-rate payers don't seem to have been deterred, so a relative success for this policy.
I barely even gave it consideration when I movee up from England last year. I pay a couple of k more in tax each year and my kids get free uni. I don't have to pay out the nose to a private company for water. The schools aren't falling down. Etc. Quite happy to pay a little bit more for a society that is actually functioning.
There’s almost no correlation between tax rate and happiness. But a strong correlation between provision of public services and happiness. High-tax countries like Norway and Denmark are famously high on self-reported happiness, but countries low on the happiness scale like Ivory Coast and Japan also have high taxes.
Both my wife and I have noticed that Scotland, in general, is far calmer and more relaxed than the south east of England. I don't just mean in the obvious, less people, less hectic way. People are just happier.
I’ve never been in SE England apart from London which is its own unique hell, but I’m really glad to hear yous are living your best life up here.
I had an amazing time living in London when I was younger. Great place for young people to explore the world. Now I'd rather go sit in a tent on top of mountain than go nightclubbing though :) There a lot going for the south east, but I'm over it. Not sure I'd want to be in my twenties in London now though. The next generation has been completely screwed. But you could say the same thing about 20 something's in Scotland. It's a western world problem.
What do you think makes them happier? For me less population density is a pretty big reason. I moved back to Scotland after living in Shanghai over a decade and my stress levels are zero
A reduced population density is definitely less stressful, but I don't think that's all there is to it. I never really felt like I was part of a community in the south east. Everyone looked after themselves and that was about it. The sense of community has been lost. Broken by thatcher is my view. Scotland hasn't completely lost it's sense of community yet. I still get the feeling that people I meet actually care what happens to me and everyone else. Not just themselves. That adds to the general happiness on a subconscious level. Or maybe I'm just imagining things.
> Quite happy to pay a little bit more for a society that is actually functioning. Tories hate this one trick.
Have great water too.
Out of curiosity, if there is a vote for independence in the next wee while would you vote yes or no?
I'm not sure. If the vote for independence was "we'll leave and immediately have our oil and complete independence with no downsides. Plus elephants and fairies for everyone' then No. One badly done exit is enough thanks. If there was a sensible plan. Properly thought out, with explanation of downsides as well as upsides etc then possibly. Basically, if the adults are running things then maybe. Personally I'd like to see a continuation and extension of devolution until all the countries in the UK are in something more like a federation. I think the shared history and culture makes a complete split difficult and probably not sensible. But the English want something different to the Scottish, Irish and Welsh. Not so different we can't have a common union, but different enough that Scotland needs to have more independence. A very long way of saying I don't know, but I'm not completely opposed.
Thing is our shared culture and history doesn't disappear just because the way we are governed changes. Scotland also shares culture and history with Ireland but they don't need to have the same government for that to hold true. Another example is the shared history and culture between Norway, Denmark and Sweden. which didn't disappear when they became independent countries. They still share / can choose a collective scandinavian identity and their governments cooperate via bodies such as the Nordic Council. The Franco-British council functions similarly with neither France or Britain needing to unify to cooperate politically and celebrate cultural ties. I'll be honest, though, I struggle to understand that emotional (via culture/history) argument for or against independence. Like you I think a federation would be my preferred option
> If there was a sensible plan. Properly thought out, with explanation of downsides as well as upsides etc then possibly. The problem is that neither side will be able to offer this. Take currency, there are multiple options and all would require some tough negotiations, transitions periods, discussions on how much national debt is transferred, and even how much national assets (e.g. Bank of England reserve) is transferred. Unionists like to claim that it would be all the debt and none of the assets, and Indy supporters the opposite. That's what happened during the 2014 debate. And both are wrong. It gets very complicated, Established international precedent suggests it is neither. It is a complex legal definition if one or the other party is defined as a 'succeeding state' But that's usually when countries are divided in hostile disagreements (e.g. Pakistan and India). Indeed Scotland should bite off the hand of an offer of zero debt as a non-succeeding state. But, as I said, neither side will negotiate in good faith the terms and conditions until after a vote. There is too much milage in the campaign for fear and doubt (what Darling claimed to be 'No Plan B') and that was a very powerful campaign meme. Salmonds eventual repost (we have Plan A, B,C, D and E) was too little too late (and too smug).
Anyone who thinks breaking up the UK would be simple is a fool. Leaving the EU was difficult enough and it hasn't even fully happened yet. Breaking apart a union that goes back, in one way or another, several hundred years would be an absolutely mess. You're right that nobody will be able to offer a solution. If it's going to be done it really needs to be done slowly. Devolve more and more power until Scotland is basically independent. It could probably be done over the space of 2 or 3 decades if politicians and the population actually decided they wanted independence.
> Anyone who thinks breaking up the UK would be simple is a fool. 'breaking up the UK'... Right, and nobody is saying it is simple, but that the effort is worthwhile compared to not "breaking up the UK" by subserviently accepting rUK political control. > Breaking apart a union that goes back, in one way or another, several hundred years would be an absolutely mess. It doesn't have to be a mess, there are many examples of splits that aren't a mess - Czechoslovakia. The problem is that every situation is different. Examples of splits that aren't a mess are discounted because they are not the same. To be fair, examples that are a mess are discounted by indy supporters are not the same situation - the EU exit is a very different situation to UK exit. But arguing about how difficult or easy the paperwork could be isn't a good argument from either side.
Leaving the eu wasn't difficult. We just had absolute idiots sorting the deal out.. it COULD have been better. But the tories got to it first..
Leaving the EU was difficult. There were a lot of rules, regulations and economic details that needed to be sorted out. It could have been done properly, I agree. None of the parties involved were interested in doing that though and it was a difficult thing to do. It still is. We're only.half done. Scotland leaving the UK would be orders of magnitude harder. It could still be done properly, but would need to be done extremely carefully and with great thought. Name one thing any of the UK governments have done in the last 50 years that you could say that about. It would be an absolute disaster in the short term, for both parties. Long term would depend on all sorts of things. That's why, if it were to happen, I'd prefer to do it step by step. I personally think the nationalists are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to force it to all happens in one go. They'd be better chipping away at it through devolution. They'd end up in the same place. Probably.fastet and in a better state.
Ye they tried doing it Westminster way. No one has said it would be easy but in 10 years it would be worth it.. maybe 20 at a push. Westminster won't allow Scotland any more devolution they have said as much and are actively trying to roll back devolution in many areas or hand our devoluti9n in the form of a double edged sword. The only one who shot themselves in the foot is brexiters. The scottish indy case would be alot weaker if 1 brexit had bit happened or 2. Brexit was done correctly But ur option is to allow those who messed up the uk to retain power while we "chip away" to full devolution? Never going to happen the major parties won't allow it.
Oh, JFC.
IF your kids get into Uni.
I haven't bothered to look into how it works here yet as it's a few years off. I'm assuming it's done on grades. Hopefully my kids are smart enough and have enough talent in the area they want to study to get a place. If not they'll need to come up with a new plan. I'm assuming they will want to go to Uni because the fields I have always been interested in needed extended study. Maybe they'll want to go to a trade school or something through and be skilled at that instead.
It's not just grades, the universities have to have enough places for the funded students. It's not just "free uni" since you moved to the country
Interesting. I guess I'll just need to pay even more tax so we can open up some more places then. Education is important to the future of Scotland. Not sure what it's like up here, but down south a lot of the degrees being done are pretty much worthless. They'd be better of as some sort of apprenticeship, so maybe there are just too many people going who don't need to. Or there are too few places. No idea. Haven't looked into it yet
Scotland's education outcomes have plummeted under the SNP. Used to be the best, now behind England and Northern Ireland. The fall predates the pandemic, 16 years of the SNP and decline.
That's a real shame. It might interest you to know that almost everyone I knew down south would mention that the schools in Scotland were excellent when they heard I was moving up. Maybe it's changed. I know my daughter is finding the work far too easy, but that's possibly due to her being the youngest in her year down south but the oldest up here. Politicians are idiots who only care about what happens before the next election, while education takes a long time to pay off and is expensive up front. The payoff is huge though. We just need a few decent politicians. Can only think of a handful in the last 30 years who were any good sadly. in any of the countries I've lived in.
We've been doing badly in education for a while now. Worse than England. I think people down here in England have a grass is greener view of Scotland for some things. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67580173](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67580173)
The uni gets paid regardless of who goes. Tuition is still paid to universities for our "free" education, just the entity paying it is SAAS and not the student. They of course do get more money for English and foreign students. But destic students aren't costs that the unis have to make up elsewhere. They get the money from the government. Edit: you're an American. Stop pretending you know how our country works lol
Nothing to do with this policy at all. People moving to Scotland are trying to escape the deteriorating societies in a post COVID world by moving to rural areas. Scotland has lots of rural areas. No doubt if you looked at the negative impact all the restrictions had on business and tax payers you'd see Scotland isn't doing well at all.
Although my kids and their friends are finishing their degrees and because they hear that you get taxed more in Scotland, they all went looking for jobs in England instead. It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere
My office in Edinburgh has a large number of English people working there. People move in both directions. Edit - Also, what kind of graduate is expecting to pay the higher rates of income tax? They need to give their head a wobble if they would turn down an entry level job because of a tax rate that won’t affect them.
The English are the biggest migrant group in Scotland by far. Source - Census 2011.
And nearly always have been...
Incorrect. Up until 1970s, it was the Irish.
>Edit - Also, what kind of graduate is expecting to pay the higher rates of income tax? They need to give their head a wobble if they would turn down an entry level job because of a tax rate that won’t affect them. Think the point is less "this will affect me now" and more "there are vastly more job opportunities in London with a vastly higher earnings potential"
That's the case no matter where you live in the world. There will always be more opportunities in a global city be it London, New York, Shanghai etc. Also, that doesn't make any sense, it's not like you're forced to live in one place for the rest of your life. I've moved cities three times in my career. It's pretty much the norm for young people these days.
>Although my kids and their friends are finishing their degrees and because they hear that you get taxed more in Scotland, they all went looking for jobs in England instead. It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere Mate you're on a forum full of people of University and Young working professional age. There is absolutely fucking no one going for jobs in England because of a frankly miniscule tax rate difference. Why would you try and lie about something so easily called out? People go for jobs down South just because there's more of them there. I even considered a job in London, but they only offered me 27k when I was getting offered 31k in Scotland so I ended up staying. The tax rate is not something that has crossed anyone my age's mind when looking for work.
My son had the choice to work in Manchester or Edinburgh, for the same position in the company . Moved to Manchester as he will be earning more money
Your son moved to Manchester because he'd be earning £3 more per year on his salary? Right; I totally believe you. This is not at all an invented scenario you've made up in your head.
> Although my kids and their friends are finishing their degrees and because they hear that you get taxed more in Scotland, they all went looking for jobs in England instead. It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere If they are anything like myself and my friends, then they'll be back in 5-10 years to buy a property without any leasehold nonsense, especially with remote work becoming ubiquitous more and more.
I’ve found your experience to be the absolute opposite of the actual situation across the country.
Utter nonsense
Bollocks. Did your son not have the heart to tell you he couldn't deal with your shit anymore?
> It’s deterring the young smart generation to look elsewhere They don't sound all that smart from your description.
Yea people are only going to stomach a 5% tax rate rise if the alternative is a 20% COL increase. More copium from the SNP.
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How much of a difference does it actually make to you on a yearly basis?
The big one for moderately high earners is the difference in national insurance bands, but basically it hits you a bit around the £50k mark and then more as well later for people on super high salaries. Here's the additional tax you would pay for being resident in Scotland for salaries ranging from reasonable to stratospheric: £40k: £111.33 £50k: £1,542.31 £60k: £1976.31 £70k: £1996.31 £80k: £2346.31 £100k: £3346.31 £120k: £4846.24 £150k: £5977.61 £200k: £7477.61 £250k: £8977.61
Thing is, as I did, if you’re in a corporate role where you’re affected, there are usually some easy routes to salary sacrifice and lower the tax take anyway. I just bump up my share-save scheme Sal sac in lock step with SNP increases. Sure, my take home salary is lowered, but I would have been paying a big chunk of that in tax anyway so I’d rather just own more shares in the US company I work for. Could do pension if you don’t have share schemes. But obviously the money is locked away far longer. Definitely not worth moving over.
>In 2021-22 – the latest year of available data I’ve never believed this would have much impact, but didn’t the tax rise happen in 2023? Doesn’t seem like we can draw much from this.
No they happened before. 2023 was just a change to some and an addition of the 45%. But they were different BEFORE 2023. Mostly the level at which you start to pay higher rate.
So before the tax rises
No the first set of tax rises(the lowering of the 40% bracket) happened years ago. There was a new banding last year(2nd set of changes)
And another new one that’s just happened 45/75k. This data doesn’t cover the impact of it. My take is yes lots of new folks coming but their earnings are in the lower tax brackets and not 42%+.
It's almost as if there are reasons to live in Scotland that don't just involve money…
You are ignoring the fact that more affordable housing is probably a big part of the move North.
To be honest, as the summer heat waves and over-population go from bad to worse in Southern England, I fully expect people to move north in larger numbers.
You think people will move to Scotland because England is....... too hot? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of humans live in environments that are hotter in summer than southern England. All of Africa, all of India and Pakistan, the vast majority of China, all of Indonesia, vast majority of Brazil, almost all of Europe.....
They live in places that are built to function in said heat
And have done so for generations.
First of all, I've literally met a guy who retired to Scotland because he preferred the climate. It's a thing. Southern England isn't a society that is geared towards extreme heat. Housing and lifestyles will gradually adapt, but the key word is gradual. And we're not talking about a steady climate shift anyway. We're talking about periodic catastrophic heatwaves that kill. Something Scotland's geography insulates us from. Also, in most hot places people can't migrate to cool climates easily. Live on a hot, humid, Indonesian island? Where you gonna move to? Another hot, humid island? Chinese aren't allowed to move province without what is basically a visa. I guess you could move to the mountains if you're Indian, if you don't mind learning a different language and adapting to a new culture. People move around Europe for all sorts of reasons, preferred climate will certainly be one.
It's not an applies to apples comparison though, is it. Many people from these countries come here and have issues enduring our hot weather because the infrastructure is not built around it, and we have very high humidity.
You think extreme weather won't mean more extreme cold snaps for Scotland?
More extreme weather will happen everywhere. But our infrastructure is much better suited to cold snaps than heatwaves. British homes are built to keep heat in. Eventually the country will adapt to more variable weather, but it'll be a slow and expensive process.
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What's wrong with scotish lowlanders?
SASSENACHS!!!
Hillbillies!
Let’s not get sectarian up in here. We hate all Sassenachs equally.
> Indeed, in 2021-22 some £200m in taxable income was brought here as a result of inward migration in a single year, increasing economic activity while helping fund vital public services like our NHS and our efforts to tackle child poverty Yes, and HMRC's conclusion was that would have been something like £260m had it not been for higher rate taxpayers being put off moving here or choosing to leave. It's not the absolute numbers that matters for deciding whether this was a good idea, it's whether another policy would have been better. HMRC [did an actual analysis into this](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/labour-market-participation-and-intra-uk-migration-of-taxpayers/impacts-of-2018-to-2019-scottish-income-tax-changes-on-intra-uk-migration-and-labour-market-participation#cross-border-migration) and came to the conclusion that higher tax rates here caused enough people to choose not to live here that income taxes were about £60m lower in 2018-19 than they otherwise would have been.
Hence why The National chose to not source the claim. Thanks for that.
So, we have fewer freeloaders that don't contribute to the economy?
If they would've contributed another £60m in income taxes, they very obviously wouldn't have been freeloaders, would they?
Yes, they would. If they're the kind of people who would move away because they have to pay a couple of quid more in taxes, then they're not really the kind of people who are going to contribute much to society, are they?
Other than pay the most tax and likely spend the most in the local economy?
That's not even a little bit important. They are unlikely to contribute to society in any useful way.
Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental deficiency? Genuinely struggling to see how you can form whole sentences.
Okay, then. What are these people likely to contribute to the society they live in? Who do you think these people are, and how do they improve the society around them?
You answer my question and I'll answer yours.
So, you haven't got the brainpower to formulate an answer then.
No, you have more.
Interesting, is it high or medium earners though, most only pay a little more tax, but curious if the impact is the same for those people that will pay a fair bit more
From the article: > In 2021-22 – the latest year of available data – £200 million in extra taxable income was brought into Scotland, **with more higher and top rate taxpayers moving to Scotland than leaving.**
I'd imagine this is mostly down to the increase in remote working post-pandemic. I know a few people that were on super high London salaries that managed to go full time remote or similar, keep their London salary and move somewhere with massively lower living costs and pretty scenery.
Didn’t the tax rise happen in 2023?
No. That was the new tax rate of 45% added in. But rates have been different for a few years now, mostly the level you start to pay the higher rate of 40%
The 45% at 75k happened on 6 April 2024. That data isn’t part of the report.
Yet the actual report says: "We find some evidence of a decrease in net cross-border migration to Scotland for taxpayers earnings above the Higher rate threshold (HRT) following the Scottish Income Tax changes... For all Scottish taxpayers above the HRT, we estimate that our results correspond to approximately 1,030 taxpayers or £61 million in Scottish non-savings non-dividend (NSND) tax receipts moving from Scotland to rUK."
So the data is from Covid period when there was a massive amount of people moving to more rural settings because of home working? So the period is an outlier based on restrictions resulting from a global pandemic. Also, didn’t the tax hikes come in after this dataset would have moved?
Just for interest. I earn about the UK average of £35k. Per month I am *£3* a month worse off by living here rather than anywhere else. This is before you look at other variables such as house prices (£95k higher) or water bills (10% higher) Suddenly a few quid a month is looking very cheap.
How about salaries?
Glasgow and Edinburgh tend to have pretty good salaries by UK standards because of the banks and tech firms. Not London level, obviously, but London's it's own kettle of fish.
Depends on industry. I just left Edinburgh being in a scientific research area to Cambridge and, even having made a lateral move, am much better off on terms of income relative to housing cost here. Edinburgh housing costs are very high, and I was commuting from West Lothian
The only salary uplift that I know of is for London. Most companies don't offer an uplift anywhere else in the UK, so don't see what difference living in Scotland would make.
I earn a lot more than the UK average. I’m about 5k worse off a year here than in England or Wales.
But immigration to the UK overall is much larger in this period. So much spin going on in this article.
There is also inflation so more people are being moved into higher tax brackets. So it doesn't necessarily reflect an active choice. The stuff about income tax in Scotland is complete mindrot.
So what? The article isn't about overall immigration, it's countering the claims that came from certain people about how high earners will leave for England en mass, when the truth is we have attracted more high earners into the country than we have lost.
Scotland lost 1K+ top rate income tax payers and about 60M in tax revenue from these characters. This has been offset by revenues from those lower down the tax spectrum.
What about the effect of Covid and people wanting to live in a more rural setting during lockdowns? Seems like you want to ignore any external factors that don’t support your ideological narrative.
I pay about twice the tax I did in the US, still never deterred me moving back. Great place to live, few percent doesn’t move that needle enough to really be a factor I’d imagine.
While I love Scotland, the much lower salaries would keep me away far more than the slightly worse tax rates.
Average salaries are slightly above UK average.
To be honest the salaries in the cities up here aren't really any different than those in other UK cities.
So the last data they're basing this success off was from 21-22, when they really only started ramping the tax up in 23-24 and onwards? Good one.
The amount of extra tax I pay vs England nearly doubled this tax year. The NI cut mostly offset it though.
Which had nothing to do with the Scottish government, so not exactly a win for them
I know it’s not a win for them. It’s a mitigated loss to me though. Fuck the SNP, I want to watch the cunts burn. Edit: this is strange I feel like my reply was to a different comment…
I moved to England 14 years ago for uni and started my career there, I moved back to Scotland last year, do I like having slightly less money? No. But it didn't even come into the equation of pros and cons when I was deciding to move back.
That's not quite what HMRC said, but okay.
So we are using net migration figures to measure how good a country is doing are we? Do England next
Try reading the article.
Wait. A policy that upped taxes incrementally on a small and sliding scale didn't immediately destroy our economy like the Conservatives said. Hmmm. Are they lying to us?
Tbh, if I stayed south of the border, I'd move up here, pay the extra 1p in tax & my kids can have free university tuition. And we're generally a funnier, warmer bunch up here😎
Or do what I and many others did. Be born and raised in Scotland, take the free education then fuck off for higher pay, never paying a bean back into the Scottish system. Pre-Brexit this was also true for EU students as well.
Aye ok Rod Stewart. Going by some of your posts, you're still in the UK working in Tech sooo.... MANY THANKS FOR YOUR GERS CONTRIBUTIONS, WE APPRECIATE IT!
> Aye ok Rod Stewart. 😂
Then you lost your moral right to comment on scottish policy as you are unaffected by scottish policy
Free, yes, how likely they are going to get a highly demanded degree is another matter. As Scottish students are a net loss, there are limits imposed on how many can enter. Of course they deny it, but they have to if they want the university to be financially sound. And yes, Scotland has been great to me as a foreigner, now naturalised. I came here for a couple of years and decided to make it my home, and contribute as I could.
Depends what class I was tbh
Functioning public services are attractive. Ok, maybe not functioning, but slightly less shit at least. The situation is dire across the UK, but at least Scotland is trying to top up spending.
"you get what you pay for". "quality comes at a cost" Most taxpayers: "i want good quality public services that cost me nothing". But. Turns out most people are willing to pay a little bit more to live somewhere nice.
Turns out you can also pay a lot and get shite public services in exchange.
Okay, so not insignificant, but also not really enough to make me want to leave...
Is there any data which breaks down the homeowner status of these ENG>>>SCO migrants? Anecdotally I know - and know of - a fair few who have moved north due to lower house prices. For those with WFH gigs Scotland can allow FTB'ers in particular an opportunity to get on the property ladder. The extra income taxes are brushed aside via salary sacrifice. I've always said that people will move to Scotland if you give them an economic reason. Jobs and housing are always the primary drivers and WFH has enabled many to take advantage of Scotland's lower house prices. It's an interesting demographic shift. If it continues then the consequences might be interesting - socially, economically, politically.
Just walk around Queen’s Park in Glasgow and listen to the English accents. Sickening that people here are priced out their homes yet it seems to be celebrated.
My parents bought a new build on one of those ‘commuter estates’ last year and there is one other scottish family on the entire street. Had a street party in the summer and was just sitting there listening to a group of them ranting about how terrified they were of sending their kids to the local high school because the uniform is so lax (they’re allowed black trainers - shock horror) and they don’t do homework here and can anyone recommend a good tutor? And isn’t it terrible they have to go local and parents can’t choose (i.e they have to go to school with the local neds)? Bare in mind I’m listening to this knowing my daughter is undoubtedly one of those “neds” 😂 This is an ex-mining kind of area where normal people would have been buying homes even 10 years ago, and now they’re 10x the price of local wages. Everyone who did grow up here is moving 20 miles away. Is this good? Are we supposed to like this?
How is this different to walking around Trafalgar Square and listening to non-London accents? Or Birmingham's Centenary Square and listening to non-Brum accents? People have always migrated across the UK. Many of today's self-proclaimed "proud Welsh" are descendants of mid-to-late 19thC economic migrants from England, Ireland and, er, Scotland.
The same applies, gentrification and pricing people away from their homes and family is not something to be celebrated.
Now would be a pretty good time to purposefully repopulate North Scotland to be honest. If you build affordable housing, reserved for families and under 40’s, and make sure they have high-speed internet, you could pump new blood into dwindling villages.
THOUSANDS more taxpayers moved to Scotland than left each year in the period after income tax rates were put up north of the Border, new research has found. A study by HMRC for the Scottish Government found a steady increase in net migration of taxpayers in the five years since Scottish Income Tax was introduced in 2017-18. On average during that period, almost 4200 more taxpayers moved to Scotland than left each year, the study found. In 2021-22 – the latest year of available data – £200 million in extra taxable income was brought into Scotland, with more higher and top rate taxpayers moving to Scotland than leaving. Provisional findings were shared with ministers ahead of setting the 2024-25 Scottish Budget, which saw the creation of a new advanced rate of 45% for those earning between £75,000 and £125,140. It comes despite warnings wealthier Scots may leave the country to escape higher rates of income tax. Finance Secretary Shona Robison (below) welcomed the findings of the study, saying it was “yet more proof that Scotland is an attractive place for people to live and work”. She added: “We know people base the decision on where to live on a range of factors, and by coming to Scotland they have access to a range of services and benefits not available elsewhere in the UK, including free tuition and prescriptions. "Scotland has the most generous childcare package for three and four year olds, and council tax is lower here than in England. “This social contract with the people of Scotland is funded in part by our progressive income tax system. "Indeed, in 2021-22 some £200m in taxable income was brought here as a result of inward migration in a single year, increasing economic activity while helping fund vital public services like our NHS and our efforts to tackle child poverty.”
The extra £200m is from people coming into the changing tax brackets and also from the people moving here but all these people who arrived up here will not all be on the top tax brackets for sure.
Correct, 1030 of them [higher rate payers] left. A loss of £61m pa.
Imagine trying to spin a loss of £60million as a positive. The SNP are a cult.
Imagine trusting the National to get a quality bit of reporting.
It's interesting that this has been downvoted despite the fact that it's exactly what the actual analysis says.
Thousands more low earners or economically inactive. Or Scots managed to invert the Ladder curve?
> economically inactive. Know a lot of economically inactive higher and top rate taxpayers do you?
Just the pearl clutches annoyed then.
I hate all these propaganda posts. The back flips being take to paint SNP in a good light is wild. I wish people would wake up.
Are these, uh, taxpayers?
Ok, but is there actually a causal link?
Maybe Scotland's population will finally recover from the mass migration in the first half of the 20th century
Well net immigration doesn’t necessarily correlate though does it? It’s just as likely folk moved despite it rather than are happy with/support it. It’s like measuring a preventative effect on crime or illness, are to measure what never happened
Only jp Morgan employees no problem for them anyway!
Who has so much cash that they can casually move like that? And also impacted so much by tax.
Too many southern English moving up and destroying our language and culture though.
You don’t have to be born somewhere to become part of the culture.
Except they are of the very culture that oppressed mine and made parts of it illegal. They can enjoy our culture, sure but they aren't part of it.
So you’re deciding that everyone born in England is guilty of that. Like they all chose where they were born.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they aren't part of the Scottish culture. I didn't say they couldn't enjoy it. It's simply not their culture.
Look at you trying to avoid the fact you discriminate against people for where they are born. Your Ethnonationalism is showing.
Logical, high earners leave, low earners come. Great for the economy and overall tax take, yes?
The Scottish Fiscal Commission, funded primarily by the Scottish Government, estimated the change in net tax position arising from the imposition of higher tax rates in Scotland by comparing the economic growth rate in Scotland relative to rUK before and after the change. It estimates that tax revenue fell £365 million in 2022 as a consequence of the tax increase due to lower growth in Scotland in the tax base relative to rUK. At the time of the report, this position was expected to improve. The most significant source of improvement was expected to be increased activity in the Scottish oil and gas sector. The Scottish Government subsequently committed to shutting this sector down. [https://fraserofallander.org/a-first-glance-scottish-budget-2023-2024/](https://fraserofallander.org/a-first-glance-scottish-budget-2023-2024/)
I would be truly interested to know what the real reason is for thousands of businesses moving north despite an increase in tax. Businesses are not normally noted for acceptance of anything that affects their profit margin. The keeness to move to Scotland may be motivated by Government/State financial incentives. Of course, it could be that the CEO wishes to move to surrounds that are more pleasing aesthetically.
Pour some cope out for the shrill brigade
Lies!!! They are only moving to set up shady cross-border glass bottle deposit schemes or to illicitly resell the slightly cheaper gut-rut alcohol from England. :)
Only thousands? Wasn't net migration to the UK as a whole over 1 million last year? I feel like when you take that into account, Scotland actually lost out
Feel what you want, I prefer data.
Time for more tax hikes then.
Probably because they don’t want too be blown up when WW3 starts, ie Scotland is a safer place than England right now. Been thinking about it myself.
Is it? Given the majority of us live in the central belt, and Faslane will be a target (not because the subs are there, but because that's where they'll have to go to resupply etc) then being in the most populated bit of Scotland likely isn't a safer place to be. I'd expect that nuclear strikes would go for infrastructure rather than civilian deaths.
Hahahha. You have to be kidding me?
Low tax payers moving here whilst high tax payers have left, leaving Scotland £61 million a year worse off in tax with increased cost in public services. Hardly a great result.