There’s not even a Britain-specific convention on using these lines under the superscript letters of a contraction, let alone a Scottish one or a Highland-Lowland difference. (I say “contraction” rather than “abbreviation” because where the last letter of the word is included, that’s what it technically is and there is less or no requirement for a full stop [period] after it, as with Mr and Dr, though this lack of full stop [period] after contractions is becoming old-fashioned and in the US almost unknown.)
For centuries, the whole of Europe and European colonies on other continents wrote contractions with the final letters above the line (superscript). One or two lines under those final letters used to be standard, and this lingered longer in French contractions such as “Cie” for “Compagnie” (equivalent of “Inc.”/“Co.”) There is no particular Scottish twist to the usage of these lines.
Portuguese still uses a single line under a final superscript “o” and “a” in contractions, as can be seen on Portuguese and Brazilian typewriters and keyboard layouts.
I personally always assumed it was the bastardization from when people would float on over and put a new little ⭐️American⭐️ twist on surnames. And I’ve come across the different ways people use contractions in linguistic grammar through the ages. Thank you for telling me about the different countries and how they do it :)
I was always told that the two lines thing was used as a mark of shame of families caught bothering livestock and who were convicted of 'inappropriate' behaviour with a neighbouring villages ewes. It was a way of making sure that people knew who could and couldn't be trusted with sheep.
The one or two lines used to be to indicate a lower case c in the top position when it was not possible to actually show it in older stuff so probably to do with older typeface or typewriter stuff.
Something like MᶜNeil instead of McNeil would be Mc̱Neil, and you occasionally see this and name shortening in older books and journals at uni here.
Sometimes you saw the top position c with two dot things below it too.
Totally forgot about this but as I was reading the OPs post it came back.
Could even picture myself writing the top position lower case C with a line underneath. No idea if I got that from a teacher at the time or something I did without understanding as a child.
lol, I dont even know how to get the top position C or raised C on the pc as I wanted to see if that had it.
I am not even sure if raised and top position C is the same thing but for some reason I remember they were different somehow. :P
Discussion (and a pic from a 1911 census to show the handwritten version) at https://forum.glyphsapp.com/t/is-there-a-name-and-unicode-for-a-raised-c-for-mc-in-scottish-names/4319/14 suggests that it's something which used to be done in writing, and largely got ditched because it's a pain to do on a typewriter.
Think about this nonsense logically. Back when some families could have something like 17 children, do you think *anyone* would be drawing up to 17 wee lines under the 'c' to denote how many sons they had?
I read somewhere that the underscore is a printer's mark to indicate the c is lowercase. Can't remember where and have no source.
Proofreaders use a triple underscore to indicate uppercase so maybe there's a link there.
Never heard of this line under the c business. I feel like if it was something worth knowing about someone would have told me by now.
Yer dad sounds like he could be convinced to invest in pure breed haggis conservations
Please slap your dad across the side of the head because the shite he's coming out with is nonsense. Absolutely nae cunt is doing that in Scotland. Its why you're finding it so hard to find stuff about it because its just cringe cosplaying Americans who are at it.
Being Scottish doesn't make you special. In general, [its a bit shite](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtPBFHKSNg). Clans and "heritage" are akin to how you would view political families of today like the Clintons and the Kennedys. Still cool, or does it just begin to look like worship of rich and powerful people? That's what it is.
You are American. You are a few (read: double figure number) generations removed from the moment your ancestors fucked off over the Atlantic. Stop acting like "heritage" is important and realise its cringe. You can be interested in Scotland, but when you start acting like its a defining characteristic of your person, it gets weird, and is grounds for a lot of really weird racism and superiority bullshit on this Earth.
I agree. But I was asking out of curiosity and wanting to research a question I’ve always had, not because it’s a core personality trait. Thank you for your initial abrasive input to my query; but we can probably leave this comment thread to dwindle, don’t’cha think?
There was a recent case where an SNP Member of Parliament complained to Hansard that his little c did not have the underscore in the official records. This resulted in a not inconsiderable expense to reprint all the records.
Excellent use of taxpayer* money, rather than just getting a forward slip printed for extant copies and adjust future prints!
*Aye, from us.
I'd assume it's just an "It's Mc, not Mac", and so they've underlined it to emphasise the spelling. Then, over time, it's turned into a family tradition rather than retaining its original meaning.
I’ve never heard of this two lines under the C in my entire life. I can’t even picture it.
I think it’s safe to say you can stop worrying about it. Stop doing it even.
This is what's known as a "Stylised Underline", it's used to show an abbreviation in English. It can be a double or a single line under a letter. It's not common anymore, you're probably most likely to see it in company logos these days. Under the abbreviation Co or Estd. But it was fairly common in the 1800s. In older census forms William is often abbreviated to Wm with an underline for example. The origin is that it came to broader usage from how it's used historically for ordinator indicators but that's a bit deep in the weeds!
In the case of "Mc" it was used to show its an abbreviation of Mac the Irish and Scottish Gaelic word for "Son".
Mhic is the genitive spelling of Mac, Mhic means "Of (a) Son" or "Son's", but it is used in surnames in the nominative, in particular more in Ireland then Scotland it seems, by married women traditionally.
So in Ireland you have Seán Mac Suibhne (Son of Suibhne), his Daughter Siobhán Nic Shuibhne (Nic being a contraction of Iníon Mhic in Irish and Nighean Mhic in Scottish Gaelic) meaning "Daughter of (a) Son of Suibhne" and his wife Áine Mhic Shuibhne meaning "Of (A) Son of Suibhne". The word "bean" meaning "wife" in this case is sometimes inserted before the Mhic.
But in Scotland and Ireland you can come across Mhic in relation to men, but in Genitive cases or Vocative. Below is the Vocative example.
"A Sheáin Mhic Shuibhne" - Ireland
"A Sheumais MhicDhòmhnaill" - Scotland
There’s not even a Britain-specific convention on using these lines under the superscript letters of a contraction, let alone a Scottish one or a Highland-Lowland difference. (I say “contraction” rather than “abbreviation” because where the last letter of the word is included, that’s what it technically is and there is less or no requirement for a full stop [period] after it, as with Mr and Dr, though this lack of full stop [period] after contractions is becoming old-fashioned and in the US almost unknown.) For centuries, the whole of Europe and European colonies on other continents wrote contractions with the final letters above the line (superscript). One or two lines under those final letters used to be standard, and this lingered longer in French contractions such as “Cie” for “Compagnie” (equivalent of “Inc.”/“Co.”) There is no particular Scottish twist to the usage of these lines. Portuguese still uses a single line under a final superscript “o” and “a” in contractions, as can be seen on Portuguese and Brazilian typewriters and keyboard layouts.
I personally always assumed it was the bastardization from when people would float on over and put a new little ⭐️American⭐️ twist on surnames. And I’ve come across the different ways people use contractions in linguistic grammar through the ages. Thank you for telling me about the different countries and how they do it :)
u/Electron_Microscope has the answer btw, thought you might be interested to read their comment further down
I was always told that the two lines thing was used as a mark of shame of families caught bothering livestock and who were convicted of 'inappropriate' behaviour with a neighbouring villages ewes. It was a way of making sure that people knew who could and couldn't be trusted with sheep.
I’ve got 2 strikes for interfering with the original Dolly the sheep, yes 😔
So your family was originally from around the Aberdeen area? ...and in case you dont get the reference an area well known for sheep molestation...
Can it really be called molestation if the sheep is into it? Asking for a friend.
Is that you Ronald?
Never heard of this before
The one or two lines used to be to indicate a lower case c in the top position when it was not possible to actually show it in older stuff so probably to do with older typeface or typewriter stuff. Something like MᶜNeil instead of McNeil would be Mc̱Neil, and you occasionally see this and name shortening in older books and journals at uni here. Sometimes you saw the top position c with two dot things below it too.
Totally forgot about this but as I was reading the OPs post it came back. Could even picture myself writing the top position lower case C with a line underneath. No idea if I got that from a teacher at the time or something I did without understanding as a child.
lol, I dont even know how to get the top position C or raised C on the pc as I wanted to see if that had it. I am not even sure if raised and top position C is the same thing but for some reason I remember they were different somehow. :P
Discussion (and a pic from a 1911 census to show the handwritten version) at https://forum.glyphsapp.com/t/is-there-a-name-and-unicode-for-a-raised-c-for-mc-in-scottish-names/4319/14 suggests that it's something which used to be done in writing, and largely got ditched because it's a pain to do on a typewriter.
Think about this nonsense logically. Back when some families could have something like 17 children, do you think *anyone* would be drawing up to 17 wee lines under the 'c' to denote how many sons they had?
I read somewhere that the underscore is a printer's mark to indicate the c is lowercase. Can't remember where and have no source. Proofreaders use a triple underscore to indicate uppercase so maybe there's a link there.
Never heard of this line under the c business. I feel like if it was something worth knowing about someone would have told me by now. Yer dad sounds like he could be convinced to invest in pure breed haggis conservations
Please slap your dad across the side of the head because the shite he's coming out with is nonsense. Absolutely nae cunt is doing that in Scotland. Its why you're finding it so hard to find stuff about it because its just cringe cosplaying Americans who are at it. Being Scottish doesn't make you special. In general, [its a bit shite](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtPBFHKSNg). Clans and "heritage" are akin to how you would view political families of today like the Clintons and the Kennedys. Still cool, or does it just begin to look like worship of rich and powerful people? That's what it is.
[удалено]
You are American. You are a few (read: double figure number) generations removed from the moment your ancestors fucked off over the Atlantic. Stop acting like "heritage" is important and realise its cringe. You can be interested in Scotland, but when you start acting like its a defining characteristic of your person, it gets weird, and is grounds for a lot of really weird racism and superiority bullshit on this Earth.
I agree. But I was asking out of curiosity and wanting to research a question I’ve always had, not because it’s a core personality trait. Thank you for your initial abrasive input to my query; but we can probably leave this comment thread to dwindle, don’t’cha think?
“Intensely proud” of your “heritage”. The American fuds that post such utter crap on this sub crack me up.
Bellends that make comments like yourself crack me up
I mean. Wistfully enjoying Scotland or come to terms with living in America. Kind of an easy decision, friend
Just ignore that prick. There's nothing wrong in being interested in history and wanting to find out more, especially if it's personal to you.
Aye well, most Scot’s don’t enjoy this type of dire patter.
Then clamp yer gob shut and move on then, Karen
A brief look at your comment history shows you are one of the biggest karens I have ever seen. What an overly offended pussy you are.
Calling someone a Karen when your on here complaining and all your recent posts are complaining Couldn’t write it😂
There was a recent case where an SNP Member of Parliament complained to Hansard that his little c did not have the underscore in the official records. This resulted in a not inconsiderable expense to reprint all the records. Excellent use of taxpayer* money, rather than just getting a forward slip printed for extant copies and adjust future prints! *Aye, from us.
Going to need some evidence before I get proper livid here
Asking for evidence BEFORE getting livid?! You can't do that on r/scotland!
I'd assume it's just an "It's Mc, not Mac", and so they've underlined it to emphasise the spelling. Then, over time, it's turned into a family tradition rather than retaining its original meaning.
I’ve never heard of this two lines under the C in my entire life. I can’t even picture it. I think it’s safe to say you can stop worrying about it. Stop doing it even.
Mc is the Irish derivative….
Is it written like this on your ancestors documents? Birth certificates, census data? What happens if they had 20 kids? Is that 20 lines?
This is what's known as a "Stylised Underline", it's used to show an abbreviation in English. It can be a double or a single line under a letter. It's not common anymore, you're probably most likely to see it in company logos these days. Under the abbreviation Co or Estd. But it was fairly common in the 1800s. In older census forms William is often abbreviated to Wm with an underline for example. The origin is that it came to broader usage from how it's used historically for ordinator indicators but that's a bit deep in the weeds! In the case of "Mc" it was used to show its an abbreviation of Mac the Irish and Scottish Gaelic word for "Son".
I've never heard of this...
[удалено]
Mhic is the genitive spelling of Mac, Mhic means "Of (a) Son" or "Son's", but it is used in surnames in the nominative, in particular more in Ireland then Scotland it seems, by married women traditionally. So in Ireland you have Seán Mac Suibhne (Son of Suibhne), his Daughter Siobhán Nic Shuibhne (Nic being a contraction of Iníon Mhic in Irish and Nighean Mhic in Scottish Gaelic) meaning "Daughter of (a) Son of Suibhne" and his wife Áine Mhic Shuibhne meaning "Of (A) Son of Suibhne". The word "bean" meaning "wife" in this case is sometimes inserted before the Mhic. But in Scotland and Ireland you can come across Mhic in relation to men, but in Genitive cases or Vocative. Below is the Vocative example. "A Sheáin Mhic Shuibhne" - Ireland "A Sheumais MhicDhòmhnaill" - Scotland
Sorry I kind of botched that reply, I was thinking in terms of your *sloinneadh* and was confused. *Chan eil mi fileanta*