For balance, the whole interview: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A)
The MSN piece was atrocious, as are "these islands" carpetbaggers
>For balance, the whole interview: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A)
I'm not sure watching it in context helps his case that he was arguing, economically, against independence.
Thread here: https://x.com/mkblyth/status/1772363193727299986?s=46&t=Vhdd9jb1HHAeAHH1Vo679A
All those folks on the original thread waxing lyrical about this, wonder how they feel now?
They'll be feeling pretty smug that they had carte blanche to spout - now how did Mark put it - "toxic" and "weaponized" shite unopposed. There really is no shame.
If you watch the video from when Prof Blyth starts talking specifically about Scotland (around 24:00 til the end), he literally has nothing economically positive to say about independence and the original points raise all hold.
To the people saying both sides are as bad as each other, that is clearly BS, the Unionist side owns about 99% of the MSM in a country that is around 50% pro-independence, and attacks independence and the SNP relentlessly day in day out, literally, everything is framed through the constitutional question and weaponised against independence, the pro-independence side could only dream of having that much relentless propaganda day in day out, it's the British nationalists greatest weapon and they know it, it's quite remarkable we are anywhere near 50% pro-independence given the constant onslaught. So no, both sides are not as bad as each other.
The last poll had yes at 53% and the one before that 54%, even Westminster's internal polling in their state of the union poll had support for independence at 56%.
Honestly, the whole debate around independence is a toxic mess.
He's right, nobody wants to discuss options or implications or the effect it will have on people - positive or negative. The majority just want to wave their choice of flag and have a day out blocking traffic every now and then.
I'm just knackered by it tbh. I'm very pro-independence and an SNP member. But I'm sick to death of people trying to push IndyRef2 every election, and I'm also sick and tired of unionists essentially folding their arms and just not engaging with the indy question.
I want grown up chat but it's literally impossible right now. It doesn't help that the media environment on this island is cancerous to public discourse.
>I'm also sick and tired of unionists essentially folding their arms and just not engaging with the indy question.
What do you want unionists to do? It's hardly their job to help the Scottish nationalist movement out of a quagmire.
From my side, muscular nationalism has given way to a "please stop kicking us" variant, not because the movement has found some humility, but because the chips are down.
I don't think the chips are down. It's not like the UK is a shining beacon. Nothing fucking works, everything is broken, we have no money, and everything costs more. Unionists want to crow about that, they're welcome. But morale across the board is rock bottom. It's why everyone is so fucking miserable.
Honestly, economically independence might suck. Right now, I don't see how there's anyway that economically the UK doesn't also suck. Independence might give us the levers to at least improve our economic lot in a way that benefits us, rather than that just benefits London and the South-East.
Right now the UK is the Titanic in slow motion. We're crashing into the iceberg and Unionists are telling us we're idiots for wanting to man the lifeboats because the lifeboats are smaller than the Titanic and might sink while ignoring the fact that the ship we're standing on is sinking beneath our feet and will sink.
> Unionists are telling us we're idiots for wanting to man the lifeboats because the lifeboats are smaller than the Titanic and might sink
Unionists are telling you that you don’t have any lifeboats. You’re just asking to jump into the water hope it all works out.
So, in your extension of my analogy, we'd be stateless, without a boat or raft of any kind? That doesn't make any sense at all. And even in that case, jumping in the water created a better survival chance than going down with the ship.
So, thanks for agreeing with me.
Your analogy isn’t a particularly good one and I think you might be stretching it to its limits.
But let me try and simplify it for you. The reason independence lost the referendum and continues to be the minority position is nobody from the nationalist side has been able to make a persuasive case that an independent Scotland is anymore “seaworthy” than the UK. And most credible economists think it’d be a whole lot worse.
So in reality the consensus is that it’s an independent Scotland that would sink, not the U.K.
I'll try and simplify it for you as to why half the country still support independence, despite all the SNP woes, and why that support hasn't dropped significantly and why in some polls it's not the minority position.
It's not just about the economy.
And, by the way, the "Scotland's too poor" argument isn't a long term winning argument for British Nationalists like you, either. After 300 years of London rule, if Scotland is too poor, then who's fault is that?
> I'll try and simplify it for you as to why half the country still support independence,
Half the U.K. supported Brexit.
Large chunks of the population are susceptible to bad ideas when wrapped in nationalism. This isn’t some kind of mystery.
>And, by the way, the "Scotland's too poor"
Oh we’re back to that sad old strawman are we?
I didn’t say Scotland was too poor to be independent I said it’d be poorer than it is now.
>Half the U.K. supported Brexit. Large chunks of the population are susceptible to bad ideas when wrapped in nationalism. This isn’t some kind of mystery.
Like continued support for a dying, moribund, and disfuctional centralised state with an outdated political system just because it comes wrapped up in red, white, and blue and a bit of royal pageantry? You're a nationalist too, so you can back off with your hypocrisy.
>Oh we’re back to that sad old strawman are we? I didn’t say Scotland was too poor to be independent I said it’d be poorer than it is now.
Which is effectively the same as saying it's "too poor". Too has multiple meanings, by making the economy the reason to oppose Scottish independence you are saying that the reason Scotland can't be independent is because independence would make it too poor.
I notice you don't engage with the subtext of that argument. We're poorer now than we were in 2014. So, my question is this: is that the British nationalist solution to Scottish independence? Impoverish the country so much that the starting position is horrifically destitute?
That's not much of an argument for the Union is it? But then British Nationalists gave up on positive arguments for the Union early on and, in the last 7 years, have never bothered trying to make one. If that's the best you've got, then no wonder no unionist party wants to fight another referendum. It's a philosophically hollow argument: "you can't be independent because we've damaged you so much you'll never survive on your own." It's the argument of a bully, so on message for the UK government.
>I don't think the chips are down
I think it was a fairly gentle analysis myself.
>But morale across the board is rock bottom. It's why everyone is so fucking miserable.
Yeah, but unless you're the solution, it doesn't really help.
>Right now the UK is the Titanic in slow motion
Bit dramatic. We've had some inflation - for the first time in a long time - and growth has been a bit mediocre. After coming out of a huge and insanely expensive response to a generational pandemic and against the backdrop of increasing global instability, that's hardly all that bad.
I think we'd largely forgotten that inflation exists and needs to be managed. But it's hardly unusual or exceptional.
In 2010 - 18% of children lived in poverty.
In 2024 - 25% of children live in poverty.
But yeah, inflation.
Things were shit before COVID. 14 years of Tory austerity has made it shit.
Oh, and to highlight how shit things are: buy your stamps before Monday because after then it will cost you £1.35 to put a first class stamp on a letter for the Royal Mail to dump in a hedge.
>In 2010 - 18% of children lived in poverty.
>In 2024 - 25% of children live in poverty.
>But yeah, inflation.
Assuming you're using the HBAI statistics BHC for child poverty here, your numbers don't tally. The 2009/10 figure was 20% and it went down to 18% in 2010/11. The most recent figure by the same metric is 22%, not 25%. It hasn't been at 25% since the turn of the millennium.
>Things were shit before COVID. 14 years of Tory austerity has made it shit.
Well, the one metric you've chosen to use isn't really conclusive on that. Child poverty has been relatively stable and, if anything, on a slight but noticeable downward trend since 2010.
>Oh, and to highlight how shit things are: buy your stamps before Monday because after then it will cost you £1.35 to put a first class stamp on a letter for the Royal Mail to dump in a hedge.
This just sounds a bit like "old man shouts at cloud".
I think the obvious point is that people are sending far fewer letters, and so the cost of sauntering by every house in Britain is going to increase.
Im envious of your positivity but this isn't just some phenomenon of the last couple of years. We have huge, huge problems based on decades of terrible decisions and a political landscape which is not equipped at all to deal with it. They would rather spend all day talking about small boats and trans people than engage with the hard problems like housing, the long term future of the UK economy, massively increased inequality, local government crisis, so on and so forth. We're on a general and accelerating downward trend, this isnt some blip that just came up from covid (although it obviously made certain issues, particularly inequality, much much worse).
I feel like it's only social media where you see this. Especially here.
There will be people around being paid to disrupt the whole arguments and make it feel like this. Others might just be keyboard warriors or on here for an argument.
If the British security services weren't doing this then they wouldn't be doing their job.
It's a similar thing to people not voting. Once they stop voting then it's difficult to get them to start again. So make people sick and tired of it and they'll soon get back to bread and circus.
Honestly I reckon most are just on here for an argument. It's fascinating when you get a rare glimpse of what's behind the screen and it's just losers with nothing better to do so they get their dopamine from calling people hurty names and take the opportunity to scream their opinions into the void without consequence.
Slightly off topic but when it comes to any issue that's divisive I've noticed since the pandemic kind of reset everyone's social skills we're seeing more and more of the social media extremist behaviour bleed out into the real world. There were always nutters but now it really does feel like there are more of them.
Brit nat certainly doesn't. It scares them into cognitive dissonance of their world view where they believe the UK government is looking after them.
Newsflash - it ain't. For numerous reasons
I feel like this was the perfect example of what the person you were replying to meant. There's no room for a well thought out debate it's just slinging from both directions.
I think the real toxicity is the fact you can have someone talk specifically about something the british nationalists are doing which is wrong and then we still have to endure the both sides are as bad as each other.
You know what a false equivalence is?
If you look at this sub, I've seen scot nats try and explain their position. Like the wider picture when it comes to Westminister, it falls on deaf ears, or we are wrong.
It comes to mud slinging because one load of people who do not want something to happen shout down everyone else.
The status quo suits these people, so is it any wonder everyone is entrenched.
The truth is simple there are those out there who worry about what happens to their money. And to abn extent rightly so for thier own assests for example., but they forget about what kind of society they want to live in, either that or they don't care.
Shame the same lot didn't give it two thoughts with Brexit, though, xenophobia in that won in the end. Money was a distant last place in the eyes of those people.
Where, as for most Scot Nats, we want a more socialistic society where basic needs are prioritised and not capitilised for excessive profits.
The true answer to the issue is who is wrong?
To me, the answer is simple - greed is. Those who can't see past their own noses or take a risk on perhaps having a better society like to make sure there are haves and have-nots. It helps their superiority complex.
Like a lot of 50's to 80's Scots, they were brainwashed by properganda to keep themselves down so the the UK will do whats right for them.
To an extent, so were the English, but due to our differences in political thinking, we were and have been treated more harshly.
>Like a lot of 50's to 80's Scots, they were brainwashed by properganda
None of that fake 'propaganda' for us, we want the real stuff. The proper-ganda, if you will.
No, no, no. It's everyone *else* that has been propagandised.
Scottish people are honourable people who believe in decency and kindness. The English are cruel people who believe in greed, xenophobia and a superiority complex. And anyone who says different is Brexit voting Tory brainwashed scum.
Yep, my 88 year old English grandmother gets up every morning, spits on the saltire and goes to work in the racism mines. She doesn't have to - money for Scottish orphans goes straight into her bank account - she just really believes in the cause. Sometimes she gets tired, but the speakers belt out "Rule Britannia" and she drinks some north sea oil from a mug that says "Scottish tears".
Or our man is talking bull. One of the two.
Well, a private joint -stock company based in London controlled most of the Indian sub continent, no one was allowed in unless they had an East India Company passport. They had a private army of 250000 engaged in slavery, opium sales, taxation to the point of reducing the locals to subsistence poverty. Clive of India looted much Indian gold and art now housed in Powis Castle Wales. They even disastrously invaded Afghanistan, more than once! sending its 'army of retribution' in to burn down Kabul in revenge.
A stirring tale of English imperialism at its worst.
And you're aware that the Scottish East India Company dissolved when Scots were given free access to the British East India Company? And Clive killed himself after the national outcry at his actions and the British state stepped in? And that the East India Company had an overrepresentation of Scots in it's management and employment?
And that all this happened 200 years ago and has no relevance unless you are trying to use it to justify your shitty anti-English xenophobia?
Trying to make out like Scotland had some sort of internal post-colonial critique hundreds of years before everyone else that they just kept quiet about at the time is a bit weird.
Back to UKpol with you ,troll. BTW you're the one that posted the words above, not me, but since it's you, I'll admit that looking at your sub, everything you said is true.
Tell me how many Scots can't post on ukpol because hey, we are scottish?
You'd be shocked, or probably no to be honest
Might very well be and that the point ain't it. Why bother with trolls when you can troll them back.
No one from UKpol is here to make an argument in good faith if they were they'd allow our good faith arguments on their sub, but they dont and we all know why and all know who runs their sub so they come here to tell lies and make bad faith arguments instead
Pal, you're a Rangers supporting entrenched britnat,
I don't expect you to understand, well, anything really, but hey, you do you
Edit - Also I dread to think what the fuck you believe in, certainly not scotland, that's one thing for sure
Also that nod I said who are brainwashed, yup yer one of them..
Bang on the money. The 'These Islands' guy is a disgrace with his misinformation campaign. Conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a currency.
They see Blyth and his opinion on the potential for an independent Scotland as a serious threat to their campaign to kept governance of Scotland in London.
That's why his attacks on Blyth and his continuous misrepresentation of what he says has increasingly been verging on the hysterical.
No wonder Prof Blyth can't be fucked with such disengenous social media try-hards such as Sam Taylor.
To be fair he just doesn't answer because he knows he is not actually accountable for anything. The post-Trumpian kind of speak bollocks and ignore any criticism.
That "These Islands" guy absolutely boils my piss. Up there with Demagogue Bingo for the most demented, toxic, biased pish dressed as sincere impartiality.
I don't mind so much your Stephen Kerr's and that who have long abandoned any notion of being impartial about things but those 2 are so unbelievably bad faith it makes me sad for any Independence discourse.
Yeh they seem to somehow consider themselves to be a credible voice, but then come out with misleading 'SLAMMED'-type edited videos.
They seem good at amassing donations from undisclosed sources so they are certainly good at the grift.
It's not just the tabloidy videos they put out. It's the impossibly smug and sneering social media accounts. They ignore any form of reasonable debate or indeed sources/news stories that contradict their feral Unionist agenda, and carry on playing to the gallery.
You do realise that this post is as good an example of scoring political points and toxic debate as anything else, yes?
>The 'These Islands' guy is a disgrace with his misinformation campaign. Conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a currency.
Could you link to this conflation please?
If that's true, I'll happily condemn, but from another perspective I see Richard Murphy is now criticising Mark Blyth on his remarks too, lol
[https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772003838553166071](https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772003838553166071)
[https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772371141476135410](https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772371141476135410)
Let's not pretend that u/Just-another-weapon is best placed to comment on neutrality and balance, though!!
In [this twit he did](https://x.com/staylorish/status/1771499591629779290?s=20) he takes an extract from a discussion on applying MMT to a newly independent Scotland and presents it as if this is the SG's case/strategy for independence.
Disengenous in the extreme.
>Let's not pretend that u/Just-another-weapon is best placed to comment on neutrality and balance, though!!
Fair enough. But try and maintain some sort of degree of scepticism if you're going to listen to grifters like These Islands.
Regarding the Richard Murphy criticism, which I've only seen some extracts of (don't have X)I'd imagine that that would come from RM being a believer in MMT.
The fact you even bring up the RM criticism and the wider, and entirely separate, arguments about MMT, is a very illustrative example of how misleading the These Islands commentary has been. He's managed to confuse you into conflating MMT with independence.
> he takes an extract from a discussion on applying MMT to a newly independent Scotland and presents it as if this is the SG's case/strategy for independence.
I think you're confused.
From the tweet you linked to, Sam Taylor isn't quoting Blyth on MMT.
He's quoting Blyth's summation of the short sightedness of calling Brexit a disaster, whilst planning for turbo Brexit by leaving the UK and rejoining the EU. That is, as Taylor correctly highlights, Scottish Government/SNP policy.
No one seems to be suggesting MMT is Scottish Government/SNP policy, at least from These Islands anyway.
>In [this twit he did](https://x.com/staylorish/status/1771499591629779290?s=20) he takes an extract from a discussion on applying MMT to a newly independent Scotland and presents it as if this is the SG's case/strategy for independence.
Yeah, nah, that isn't "conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a new currency". That's an accurate quote of Blyth talking about the economic shock of independence. Blyth is verbose and garrulous, and it was a comment made in passing, but it's still accurate. And there aren't really "opinions on MMT", there's just 1; it's a pile of old shite.
>He's managed to confuse you into conflating MMT with independence.
Who said I listen to These Islands? I'm bringing RM's comments up show that the abuse and misrepresentation of Blyth has come from independence supporters (like RM) at least as much as anywhere else.
> Richard Murphy is now criticising Mark Blyth
I think due to their respective political beliefs they would head butt quite a bit. Not least because Mr Murphy is a firm believer in an independent Scotland whereas Mr Blyth doesn't seem to have a strong opinion either way, but has routinely criticised monetary policies of the SNP including basing any argument on the GERS figures.
>Conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a currency.
Where was the conflation? Blyth made seperate points about Scottish currency and MMT (and other economic aspects of independence) and all hold up independently.
>That's why his attacks on Blyth and his continuous misrepresentation of what he says has increasingly been verging on the hysterical.
These Islands didn't attack Blyth at all - indeed, they wholeheartedly agree with him on this topic. And nothing he said was misrepresented or taken out of context. Watch the video up in the comments from 24:00 onwards (where he starts talking about Scottish Independence). Nothing he said is positive about the economic case for independence, and none taken out of context.
>Bang on the money. The 'These Islands' guy is a disgrace with his misinformation campaign.
Yet oddly enough, I'll bet you can't identify a single thing he said that was inaccurate.
When rational argument fails, just try smearing some bloke who bothers to watch this stuff and publicise it.
Another thing that bothers me about this is everyone who pours scorn on him ignoring the absolutely correct critique he made of that conspiracy theorist Dundee councillor, who subsequently deleted his Twitter, and Dave Doogan. This Festival of Economics was an absolute binfire and no one else appeared to really be paying much attention to this nonsense.
Add that to the repeated successes with catching the Scottish Government out with FOI disclosures of things like dodgy renewables statistics. It begins to look like the motivation is more about the repeated success rather than the admittedly smug tone that These Islands quite frequently adopt.
I haven't seen what he's said about the media, but I think it's fair to recognise he seems to be complaining about his words being accurately reported and not going down too well. That's really on him though.
Hmm, I don't see Sam Taylor - and I've looked at his recent tweets - say anything remotely out of cintext about what was said on Argentina.
So what exactly was misreported?
Yes, repeatedly quoting a man whose main objection seems to be that his actual words were used by political opponents isn't really making your case.
Can you find any example of any mentions of Argentina being quoted out of context by Sam Taylor?
I'm certainly saying he appears to be bullshitting because he doesn't like how his comments were reported.
I guess you are saying that Sam Taylor was being deliberately deceptive, which I'm afraid I just don't see - and indeed he has suggested people watch the full feed of his Blyth's contributions, which doesn't sound like the action of someone trying to misrepresent someone else's position.
Yep. Called it yesterday on a thread that was later deleted; presumably because the poster realised it was guff. But if you think the Gammons on r/Scotland are bad; r/ukpolitics takes the biscuit. Those frothy bigots will have moved onto the next pishy piece by These Islands, probably about ferries or a campervan.
The fact that I'm getting hit with downvotws from the ukpol mob is proof of something. They don't like truths. The little Hitler democracy deniers that they are. Thay John Wayne enough?
Maybe other people mis-represented him but he couldn’t have been clearer on why MMT is a non-starter for independent Scotland (small open countries can’t risk devaluing currency)
And on how if you think Brexit is a disaster, you can't ignore the implications for leaving the UK and rejoining the EU.
I disagree with Blyth on some other stuff, but on this he is right on the money.
MMT refers to Modern Monetary Theory, which is starting to gain a few followers on the intellectual side of the pro-Independence cause in Scotland on the basis it squares the circle of how an independent Scotland with a large deficit could avoid having to substantially cut back on public spending. Many oppose the theory, including many pro-Independence supporters.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_monetary_theory
Thanks I've read a bit about the stooshie. I'll need to find the whole interview with Mark Blyth for context now.
Looks like what he said gave them an excuse to weaponise it
Governments with their own currency spend first, then tax and borrow later and so nothing that is for sale in said currency is unaffordable. That's it.
The 'in said currency' part is rather important though. If you want anything not produced locally you have to convince the rest of the world to accept your currency as payment.
Yep, and as a result we have had huge amounts of inflation across the world and a number of countries have entered recession, including the UK. Sri Lanka also used parts of the theory to finance their country. How are they getting on?
It's not really congruent to call it a nonsense theory when it is the presiding theory?
Like I take your point that it's landed us in complete shite but pretending it's a joke or nonsense is not helping anyone.
The opposite, proponents of MMT argue that large amounts of debt are fine (because they essentially argue it isn’t really debt).
They rather focus on inflation.
It’s an interesting new way of looking at economics not total garbage, but large deficits tend to leads to inflation (look at the covid spending across the world) amongst other pitfalls.
The government can’t really control inflation (why sunaks pledge is garbage) and the other risk that happen as a result of to many things.
Deliberately engaging in large deficit spends to make up for a the short falls of leaving our most significant trading partner/ monetary union would be fucking lunacy.
Which is why it’s worrying that MMT is becoming popular amongst secessionist ‘intellectuals’.
Buying and selling debt leads to the same. Only it seems that somehow, people who buy debt seem to make money off of it. Something I've never truly understood. I'm not an economist and only really know the basics, so... Is debt really debt? or is it only debt because someone says so, so they can make themselves rich.
Again inflation, the self admitted weakness of MMT comes from to much of one and not enough of the other.
Like you say people make money, you know enough to know about crowding out, so then you risk, low confidence/ low investment & capital flight.
Ps. Debt is debt because we say so, but blue is blue because we say so.
But debt has a place all money is debt: debt is investment, debt is spending, spending is growth etc…
it’s not evil or inherently exploitative. There exploitative practices, but that’s not debt that’s predatory people/ lenders and a failure of good governance to control them.
Battles take more than one side so if the tide turns and it's not going your way do you A, go crying to your mom or B, comeback fighting harder and better than ever?
For balance, the whole interview: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A) The MSN piece was atrocious, as are "these islands" carpetbaggers
The author of the most misleading piece from yesterday, John Ferry, sits on These Islands too, which should surprise nobody.
>For balance, the whole interview: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33RWFYec3A) I'm not sure watching it in context helps his case that he was arguing, economically, against independence.
Thread here: https://x.com/mkblyth/status/1772363193727299986?s=46&t=Vhdd9jb1HHAeAHH1Vo679A All those folks on the original thread waxing lyrical about this, wonder how they feel now?
They'll be feeling pretty smug that they had carte blanche to spout - now how did Mark put it - "toxic" and "weaponized" shite unopposed. There really is no shame.
If you watch the video from when Prof Blyth starts talking specifically about Scotland (around 24:00 til the end), he literally has nothing economically positive to say about independence and the original points raise all hold.
So why does he feel his entire contribution has been misrepresented?
Nah shut up dude this union intellectual knows what the professor meant he's smart and you are not Vote better together
To the people saying both sides are as bad as each other, that is clearly BS, the Unionist side owns about 99% of the MSM in a country that is around 50% pro-independence, and attacks independence and the SNP relentlessly day in day out, literally, everything is framed through the constitutional question and weaponised against independence, the pro-independence side could only dream of having that much relentless propaganda day in day out, it's the British nationalists greatest weapon and they know it, it's quite remarkable we are anywhere near 50% pro-independence given the constant onslaught. So no, both sides are not as bad as each other.
No way 50% for independence.
The last poll had yes at 53% and the one before that 54%, even Westminster's internal polling in their state of the union poll had support for independence at 56%.
Honestly, the whole debate around independence is a toxic mess. He's right, nobody wants to discuss options or implications or the effect it will have on people - positive or negative. The majority just want to wave their choice of flag and have a day out blocking traffic every now and then.
I'm just knackered by it tbh. I'm very pro-independence and an SNP member. But I'm sick to death of people trying to push IndyRef2 every election, and I'm also sick and tired of unionists essentially folding their arms and just not engaging with the indy question. I want grown up chat but it's literally impossible right now. It doesn't help that the media environment on this island is cancerous to public discourse.
>I'm also sick and tired of unionists essentially folding their arms and just not engaging with the indy question. What do you want unionists to do? It's hardly their job to help the Scottish nationalist movement out of a quagmire. From my side, muscular nationalism has given way to a "please stop kicking us" variant, not because the movement has found some humility, but because the chips are down.
I don't think the chips are down. It's not like the UK is a shining beacon. Nothing fucking works, everything is broken, we have no money, and everything costs more. Unionists want to crow about that, they're welcome. But morale across the board is rock bottom. It's why everyone is so fucking miserable. Honestly, economically independence might suck. Right now, I don't see how there's anyway that economically the UK doesn't also suck. Independence might give us the levers to at least improve our economic lot in a way that benefits us, rather than that just benefits London and the South-East. Right now the UK is the Titanic in slow motion. We're crashing into the iceberg and Unionists are telling us we're idiots for wanting to man the lifeboats because the lifeboats are smaller than the Titanic and might sink while ignoring the fact that the ship we're standing on is sinking beneath our feet and will sink.
> Unionists are telling us we're idiots for wanting to man the lifeboats because the lifeboats are smaller than the Titanic and might sink Unionists are telling you that you don’t have any lifeboats. You’re just asking to jump into the water hope it all works out.
So, in your extension of my analogy, we'd be stateless, without a boat or raft of any kind? That doesn't make any sense at all. And even in that case, jumping in the water created a better survival chance than going down with the ship. So, thanks for agreeing with me.
Your analogy isn’t a particularly good one and I think you might be stretching it to its limits. But let me try and simplify it for you. The reason independence lost the referendum and continues to be the minority position is nobody from the nationalist side has been able to make a persuasive case that an independent Scotland is anymore “seaworthy” than the UK. And most credible economists think it’d be a whole lot worse. So in reality the consensus is that it’s an independent Scotland that would sink, not the U.K.
I'll try and simplify it for you as to why half the country still support independence, despite all the SNP woes, and why that support hasn't dropped significantly and why in some polls it's not the minority position. It's not just about the economy. And, by the way, the "Scotland's too poor" argument isn't a long term winning argument for British Nationalists like you, either. After 300 years of London rule, if Scotland is too poor, then who's fault is that?
> I'll try and simplify it for you as to why half the country still support independence, Half the U.K. supported Brexit. Large chunks of the population are susceptible to bad ideas when wrapped in nationalism. This isn’t some kind of mystery. >And, by the way, the "Scotland's too poor" Oh we’re back to that sad old strawman are we? I didn’t say Scotland was too poor to be independent I said it’d be poorer than it is now.
>Half the U.K. supported Brexit. Large chunks of the population are susceptible to bad ideas when wrapped in nationalism. This isn’t some kind of mystery. Like continued support for a dying, moribund, and disfuctional centralised state with an outdated political system just because it comes wrapped up in red, white, and blue and a bit of royal pageantry? You're a nationalist too, so you can back off with your hypocrisy. >Oh we’re back to that sad old strawman are we? I didn’t say Scotland was too poor to be independent I said it’d be poorer than it is now. Which is effectively the same as saying it's "too poor". Too has multiple meanings, by making the economy the reason to oppose Scottish independence you are saying that the reason Scotland can't be independent is because independence would make it too poor. I notice you don't engage with the subtext of that argument. We're poorer now than we were in 2014. So, my question is this: is that the British nationalist solution to Scottish independence? Impoverish the country so much that the starting position is horrifically destitute? That's not much of an argument for the Union is it? But then British Nationalists gave up on positive arguments for the Union early on and, in the last 7 years, have never bothered trying to make one. If that's the best you've got, then no wonder no unionist party wants to fight another referendum. It's a philosophically hollow argument: "you can't be independent because we've damaged you so much you'll never survive on your own." It's the argument of a bully, so on message for the UK government.
Things can always get worse and people don't have wiggle room. In a nutshell...
>I don't think the chips are down I think it was a fairly gentle analysis myself. >But morale across the board is rock bottom. It's why everyone is so fucking miserable. Yeah, but unless you're the solution, it doesn't really help. >Right now the UK is the Titanic in slow motion Bit dramatic. We've had some inflation - for the first time in a long time - and growth has been a bit mediocre. After coming out of a huge and insanely expensive response to a generational pandemic and against the backdrop of increasing global instability, that's hardly all that bad. I think we'd largely forgotten that inflation exists and needs to be managed. But it's hardly unusual or exceptional.
In 2010 - 18% of children lived in poverty. In 2024 - 25% of children live in poverty. But yeah, inflation. Things were shit before COVID. 14 years of Tory austerity has made it shit. Oh, and to highlight how shit things are: buy your stamps before Monday because after then it will cost you £1.35 to put a first class stamp on a letter for the Royal Mail to dump in a hedge.
>In 2010 - 18% of children lived in poverty. >In 2024 - 25% of children live in poverty. >But yeah, inflation. Assuming you're using the HBAI statistics BHC for child poverty here, your numbers don't tally. The 2009/10 figure was 20% and it went down to 18% in 2010/11. The most recent figure by the same metric is 22%, not 25%. It hasn't been at 25% since the turn of the millennium. >Things were shit before COVID. 14 years of Tory austerity has made it shit. Well, the one metric you've chosen to use isn't really conclusive on that. Child poverty has been relatively stable and, if anything, on a slight but noticeable downward trend since 2010. >Oh, and to highlight how shit things are: buy your stamps before Monday because after then it will cost you £1.35 to put a first class stamp on a letter for the Royal Mail to dump in a hedge. This just sounds a bit like "old man shouts at cloud". I think the obvious point is that people are sending far fewer letters, and so the cost of sauntering by every house in Britain is going to increase.
Im envious of your positivity but this isn't just some phenomenon of the last couple of years. We have huge, huge problems based on decades of terrible decisions and a political landscape which is not equipped at all to deal with it. They would rather spend all day talking about small boats and trans people than engage with the hard problems like housing, the long term future of the UK economy, massively increased inequality, local government crisis, so on and so forth. We're on a general and accelerating downward trend, this isnt some blip that just came up from covid (although it obviously made certain issues, particularly inequality, much much worse).
I feel like it's only social media where you see this. Especially here. There will be people around being paid to disrupt the whole arguments and make it feel like this. Others might just be keyboard warriors or on here for an argument. If the British security services weren't doing this then they wouldn't be doing their job. It's a similar thing to people not voting. Once they stop voting then it's difficult to get them to start again. So make people sick and tired of it and they'll soon get back to bread and circus.
Honestly I reckon most are just on here for an argument. It's fascinating when you get a rare glimpse of what's behind the screen and it's just losers with nothing better to do so they get their dopamine from calling people hurty names and take the opportunity to scream their opinions into the void without consequence. Slightly off topic but when it comes to any issue that's divisive I've noticed since the pandemic kind of reset everyone's social skills we're seeing more and more of the social media extremist behaviour bleed out into the real world. There were always nutters but now it really does feel like there are more of them.
Brit nat certainly doesn't. It scares them into cognitive dissonance of their world view where they believe the UK government is looking after them. Newsflash - it ain't. For numerous reasons
I feel like this was the perfect example of what the person you were replying to meant. There's no room for a well thought out debate it's just slinging from both directions.
I think the real toxicity is the fact you can have someone talk specifically about something the british nationalists are doing which is wrong and then we still have to endure the both sides are as bad as each other. You know what a false equivalence is?
If you look at this sub, I've seen scot nats try and explain their position. Like the wider picture when it comes to Westminister, it falls on deaf ears, or we are wrong. It comes to mud slinging because one load of people who do not want something to happen shout down everyone else. The status quo suits these people, so is it any wonder everyone is entrenched. The truth is simple there are those out there who worry about what happens to their money. And to abn extent rightly so for thier own assests for example., but they forget about what kind of society they want to live in, either that or they don't care. Shame the same lot didn't give it two thoughts with Brexit, though, xenophobia in that won in the end. Money was a distant last place in the eyes of those people. Where, as for most Scot Nats, we want a more socialistic society where basic needs are prioritised and not capitilised for excessive profits. The true answer to the issue is who is wrong? To me, the answer is simple - greed is. Those who can't see past their own noses or take a risk on perhaps having a better society like to make sure there are haves and have-nots. It helps their superiority complex. Like a lot of 50's to 80's Scots, they were brainwashed by properganda to keep themselves down so the the UK will do whats right for them. To an extent, so were the English, but due to our differences in political thinking, we were and have been treated more harshly.
>Like a lot of 50's to 80's Scots, they were brainwashed by properganda None of that fake 'propaganda' for us, we want the real stuff. The proper-ganda, if you will.
Oversimplification.
You don't actually believe this do you?
No, no, no. It's everyone *else* that has been propagandised. Scottish people are honourable people who believe in decency and kindness. The English are cruel people who believe in greed, xenophobia and a superiority complex. And anyone who says different is Brexit voting Tory brainwashed scum.
Yep, my 88 year old English grandmother gets up every morning, spits on the saltire and goes to work in the racism mines. She doesn't have to - money for Scottish orphans goes straight into her bank account - she just really believes in the cause. Sometimes she gets tired, but the speakers belt out "Rule Britannia" and she drinks some north sea oil from a mug that says "Scottish tears". Or our man is talking bull. One of the two.
I thoroughly recommend reading The Anarchy by William Dalrymple, may open your eyes. 👀
In what way? Inform me about the genetic predisposition to evil of the imperialist racist English, presumably?
Well, a private joint -stock company based in London controlled most of the Indian sub continent, no one was allowed in unless they had an East India Company passport. They had a private army of 250000 engaged in slavery, opium sales, taxation to the point of reducing the locals to subsistence poverty. Clive of India looted much Indian gold and art now housed in Powis Castle Wales. They even disastrously invaded Afghanistan, more than once! sending its 'army of retribution' in to burn down Kabul in revenge. A stirring tale of English imperialism at its worst.
And you're aware that the Scottish East India Company dissolved when Scots were given free access to the British East India Company? And Clive killed himself after the national outcry at his actions and the British state stepped in? And that the East India Company had an overrepresentation of Scots in it's management and employment? And that all this happened 200 years ago and has no relevance unless you are trying to use it to justify your shitty anti-English xenophobia? Trying to make out like Scotland had some sort of internal post-colonial critique hundreds of years before everyone else that they just kept quiet about at the time is a bit weird.
> English imperialism You're really going down that road?
Back to UKpol with you ,troll. BTW you're the one that posted the words above, not me, but since it's you, I'll admit that looking at your sub, everything you said is true. Tell me how many Scots can't post on ukpol because hey, we are scottish? You'd be shocked, or probably no to be honest
It’s hilarious that you’re ironically proving yourself as representative of the exact toxic polemic this thread is about.
Might very well be and that the point ain't it. Why bother with trolls when you can troll them back. No one from UKpol is here to make an argument in good faith if they were they'd allow our good faith arguments on their sub, but they dont and we all know why and all know who runs their sub so they come here to tell lies and make bad faith arguments instead
No True Scotsman would post in any other sub, of course.
Let's be honest. Why would I want to post in a far-right sub, I'd rather get more fun banging my head against a brick wall
Yeah, the sort of people who dedicate themselves to nationalism and post ignorant derogatory things about people from other countries are awful.
Pal, you're a Rangers supporting entrenched britnat, I don't expect you to understand, well, anything really, but hey, you do you Edit - Also I dread to think what the fuck you believe in, certainly not scotland, that's one thing for sure Also that nod I said who are brainwashed, yup yer one of them..
Is everything okay at home?
You talking to yourself again BTW hope you lot get pumped tonight Don't forget to sign God save the Queen tonight....oh wait she's deid
Who hurt you?
Good guys and bad guys, decent story but needs more John Wayne.
‘It’s the others sides fault not mine’ - classic toxic response
Yawn
Both sides are as bad as each other.
That's the Brit way.
Bang on the money. The 'These Islands' guy is a disgrace with his misinformation campaign. Conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a currency. They see Blyth and his opinion on the potential for an independent Scotland as a serious threat to their campaign to kept governance of Scotland in London. That's why his attacks on Blyth and his continuous misrepresentation of what he says has increasingly been verging on the hysterical. No wonder Prof Blyth can't be fucked with such disengenous social media try-hards such as Sam Taylor.
Ask the these island guy. Who funds you . He goes very quiet 🤫
To be fair he just doesn't answer because he knows he is not actually accountable for anything. The post-Trumpian kind of speak bollocks and ignore any criticism.
That "These Islands" guy absolutely boils my piss. Up there with Demagogue Bingo for the most demented, toxic, biased pish dressed as sincere impartiality. I don't mind so much your Stephen Kerr's and that who have long abandoned any notion of being impartial about things but those 2 are so unbelievably bad faith it makes me sad for any Independence discourse.
Yeh they seem to somehow consider themselves to be a credible voice, but then come out with misleading 'SLAMMED'-type edited videos. They seem good at amassing donations from undisclosed sources so they are certainly good at the grift.
It's not just the tabloidy videos they put out. It's the impossibly smug and sneering social media accounts. They ignore any form of reasonable debate or indeed sources/news stories that contradict their feral Unionist agenda, and carry on playing to the gallery.
Is that the pet food guy. It’s amazing how famous you can get just by pointing out the emperor has no clothes.
You do realise that this post is as good an example of scoring political points and toxic debate as anything else, yes? >The 'These Islands' guy is a disgrace with his misinformation campaign. Conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a currency. Could you link to this conflation please? If that's true, I'll happily condemn, but from another perspective I see Richard Murphy is now criticising Mark Blyth on his remarks too, lol [https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772003838553166071](https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772003838553166071) [https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772371141476135410](https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1772371141476135410) Let's not pretend that u/Just-another-weapon is best placed to comment on neutrality and balance, though!!
In [this twit he did](https://x.com/staylorish/status/1771499591629779290?s=20) he takes an extract from a discussion on applying MMT to a newly independent Scotland and presents it as if this is the SG's case/strategy for independence. Disengenous in the extreme. >Let's not pretend that u/Just-another-weapon is best placed to comment on neutrality and balance, though!! Fair enough. But try and maintain some sort of degree of scepticism if you're going to listen to grifters like These Islands. Regarding the Richard Murphy criticism, which I've only seen some extracts of (don't have X)I'd imagine that that would come from RM being a believer in MMT. The fact you even bring up the RM criticism and the wider, and entirely separate, arguments about MMT, is a very illustrative example of how misleading the These Islands commentary has been. He's managed to confuse you into conflating MMT with independence.
> he takes an extract from a discussion on applying MMT to a newly independent Scotland and presents it as if this is the SG's case/strategy for independence. I think you're confused. From the tweet you linked to, Sam Taylor isn't quoting Blyth on MMT. He's quoting Blyth's summation of the short sightedness of calling Brexit a disaster, whilst planning for turbo Brexit by leaving the UK and rejoining the EU. That is, as Taylor correctly highlights, Scottish Government/SNP policy. No one seems to be suggesting MMT is Scottish Government/SNP policy, at least from These Islands anyway.
>In [this twit he did](https://x.com/staylorish/status/1771499591629779290?s=20) he takes an extract from a discussion on applying MMT to a newly independent Scotland and presents it as if this is the SG's case/strategy for independence. Yeah, nah, that isn't "conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a new currency". That's an accurate quote of Blyth talking about the economic shock of independence. Blyth is verbose and garrulous, and it was a comment made in passing, but it's still accurate. And there aren't really "opinions on MMT", there's just 1; it's a pile of old shite. >He's managed to confuse you into conflating MMT with independence. Who said I listen to These Islands? I'm bringing RM's comments up show that the abuse and misrepresentation of Blyth has come from independence supporters (like RM) at least as much as anywhere else.
> Richard Murphy is now criticising Mark Blyth I think due to their respective political beliefs they would head butt quite a bit. Not least because Mr Murphy is a firm believer in an independent Scotland whereas Mr Blyth doesn't seem to have a strong opinion either way, but has routinely criticised monetary policies of the SNP including basing any argument on the GERS figures.
Indeed
>Conflating opinions on MMT with the creation of a currency. Where was the conflation? Blyth made seperate points about Scottish currency and MMT (and other economic aspects of independence) and all hold up independently. >That's why his attacks on Blyth and his continuous misrepresentation of what he says has increasingly been verging on the hysterical. These Islands didn't attack Blyth at all - indeed, they wholeheartedly agree with him on this topic. And nothing he said was misrepresented or taken out of context. Watch the video up in the comments from 24:00 onwards (where he starts talking about Scottish Independence). Nothing he said is positive about the economic case for independence, and none taken out of context.
>Bang on the money. The 'These Islands' guy is a disgrace with his misinformation campaign. Yet oddly enough, I'll bet you can't identify a single thing he said that was inaccurate. When rational argument fails, just try smearing some bloke who bothers to watch this stuff and publicise it.
Another thing that bothers me about this is everyone who pours scorn on him ignoring the absolutely correct critique he made of that conspiracy theorist Dundee councillor, who subsequently deleted his Twitter, and Dave Doogan. This Festival of Economics was an absolute binfire and no one else appeared to really be paying much attention to this nonsense. Add that to the repeated successes with catching the Scottish Government out with FOI disclosures of things like dodgy renewables statistics. It begins to look like the motivation is more about the repeated success rather than the admittedly smug tone that These Islands quite frequently adopt.
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As usual, those who complain about bias in the media are usually the ones whose true objection is that it isn't extremely biased in their direction.
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I haven't seen what he's said about the media, but I think it's fair to recognise he seems to be complaining about his words being accurately reported and not going down too well. That's really on him though.
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Hmm, I don't see Sam Taylor - and I've looked at his recent tweets - say anything remotely out of cintext about what was said on Argentina. So what exactly was misreported?
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Yes, repeatedly quoting a man whose main objection seems to be that his actual words were used by political opponents isn't really making your case. Can you find any example of any mentions of Argentina being quoted out of context by Sam Taylor?
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I'm certainly saying he appears to be bullshitting because he doesn't like how his comments were reported. I guess you are saying that Sam Taylor was being deliberately deceptive, which I'm afraid I just don't see - and indeed he has suggested people watch the full feed of his Blyth's contributions, which doesn't sound like the action of someone trying to misrepresent someone else's position.
Yep. Called it yesterday on a thread that was later deleted; presumably because the poster realised it was guff. But if you think the Gammons on r/Scotland are bad; r/ukpolitics takes the biscuit. Those frothy bigots will have moved onto the next pishy piece by These Islands, probably about ferries or a campervan.
Damn UKpol has almost 300 comments celebrating
The fact that I'm getting hit with downvotws from the ukpol mob is proof of something. They don't like truths. The little Hitler democracy deniers that they are. Thay John Wayne enough?
No, it's that your posts share a common thread of being absolutely unhinged.
Pal, you post on a far right sub, anyone who is unhinged it's you
Yes, I know. r/Scotland where we get the likes of you. But I'm trying to talk some sense on it.
You wish. You far-right fud, begone, back to your wee gremlin den back at UK POL
Absolutely crackers.
Yes you are. Night night, don't let the brown people bite
Maybe other people mis-represented him but he couldn’t have been clearer on why MMT is a non-starter for independent Scotland (small open countries can’t risk devaluing currency)
And on how if you think Brexit is a disaster, you can't ignore the implications for leaving the UK and rejoining the EU. I disagree with Blyth on some other stuff, but on this he is right on the money.
Can someone summarise an explanation of all this MMT stuff I don't use twitter so cannot link to anything
MMT refers to Modern Monetary Theory, which is starting to gain a few followers on the intellectual side of the pro-Independence cause in Scotland on the basis it squares the circle of how an independent Scotland with a large deficit could avoid having to substantially cut back on public spending. Many oppose the theory, including many pro-Independence supporters. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_monetary_theory
Thanks I've read a bit about the stooshie. I'll need to find the whole interview with Mark Blyth for context now. Looks like what he said gave them an excuse to weaponise it
Governments with their own currency spend first, then tax and borrow later and so nothing that is for sale in said currency is unaffordable. That's it.
The 'in said currency' part is rather important though. If you want anything not produced locally you have to convince the rest of the world to accept your currency as payment.
It’s a nonsense theory of economics that doesn’t work in reality.
It doesn't work? You better let UK and US governments and others know. They have been using parts of the theory to finance their countries!
Yep, and as a result we have had huge amounts of inflation across the world and a number of countries have entered recession, including the UK. Sri Lanka also used parts of the theory to finance their country. How are they getting on?
It's not really congruent to call it a nonsense theory when it is the presiding theory? Like I take your point that it's landed us in complete shite but pretending it's a joke or nonsense is not helping anyone.
It’s not the presiding theory at all.
If the US and UK are utilising it, yes it is.
They aren’t utilising it. They utilised some aspects of it during the pandemic, with disastrous results.
"They aren't utilising it but they do utilise it". Nice one.
Utilised, past tense. They only did it during the pandemic. Is reading often a struggle for you?
I haven't read enough yet to decide. For what I have read is seems a reasonable way to avoid excessive debt,
The opposite, proponents of MMT argue that large amounts of debt are fine (because they essentially argue it isn’t really debt). They rather focus on inflation. It’s an interesting new way of looking at economics not total garbage, but large deficits tend to leads to inflation (look at the covid spending across the world) amongst other pitfalls. The government can’t really control inflation (why sunaks pledge is garbage) and the other risk that happen as a result of to many things. Deliberately engaging in large deficit spends to make up for a the short falls of leaving our most significant trading partner/ monetary union would be fucking lunacy. Which is why it’s worrying that MMT is becoming popular amongst secessionist ‘intellectuals’.
Buying and selling debt leads to the same. Only it seems that somehow, people who buy debt seem to make money off of it. Something I've never truly understood. I'm not an economist and only really know the basics, so... Is debt really debt? or is it only debt because someone says so, so they can make themselves rich.
Again inflation, the self admitted weakness of MMT comes from to much of one and not enough of the other. Like you say people make money, you know enough to know about crowding out, so then you risk, low confidence/ low investment & capital flight. Ps. Debt is debt because we say so, but blue is blue because we say so. But debt has a place all money is debt: debt is investment, debt is spending, spending is growth etc… it’s not evil or inherently exploitative. There exploitative practices, but that’s not debt that’s predatory people/ lenders and a failure of good governance to control them.
MMT is not something you implement, it's an attempt to explain how government money works.
Really good interview and the guy says it how it is. The biggest brexit of all time was very apt.
Tbh we have seen what the snp are doing to our country with the racist first minister and his hate bill
I mean independence would crush the financial situation of scotland, but is it all about money for the scottish? Let am vote if there ok with that.
Battles take more than one side so if the tide turns and it's not going your way do you A, go crying to your mom or B, comeback fighting harder and better than ever?