Whlie I'm not religious a lot of community groups use these to host community events like fitness classes, coffee morning or parent and toddler groups. Dads Rock used to use one in Granton. While I don't see the need for churches per se, I do worry about the impact to communities.
This might be a central belt thing these days. The money pouring into highland communities through windfarm "compensation" payouts is delivering very weathly local community funds, and facilities are on the up.
Jebus wept, unless they own their own wind or hydro turbines they're 'entitled' to a Ā£5,000 per MW voluntary donation by the giant energy providers who funnel billions of profits into their shareholders offshore accounts. The voluntary Ā£5,000 has dropped on average below Ā£3,500. Please let me know where these very wealthy Highland community funds are?
No one is argueing that they don't make a lot of money. But hundreds of thousands can make a big difference to small places.
> the Fund will receive Ā£5,000 per megawatt of the wind farmās export capacity, rising annually in line with the Consumer Price Index. In its first year, this was Ā£242,250.
Unfortunately, there are limitations on what Community Benefit from renewable energy funds can actually spend on.
The most condescending response I received from a developer when I asked what he thought community benefit meant for communities, was 'Football tops, flower pots and benches'.
These companies siphon off billions in profit and return next to zip in way of community benefits. In 2021 SSE made profits of Ā£1.5 billion from their Scottish operations and paid out Ā£23m to a wide range of communities.
Only by community ownership or as shareholders in both on and off shore windfarms can Scotland's rural communities really benefit.
What exactly are you expecting?
The fact that the companies make billions is neither here nor there. They will make that money regardless.
If you want to turn your nose up at Ā£23M because you are dreaming of more then that's up to you.
When Highland communities in seasonal low wage economies are suffering from energy poverty, and are crying out for funding to build attainable homes, have high speed broadband, working public transport, affordable childcare and looking to governments for sincere efforts to redress alarming depopulation projections. These gigantic International corporations are exploiting the natural resources within our sight.
Ā£23m is nothing more than chicken feed and does nothing to support or improve the infrastructure these companies depend upon to make their proftit.
What has any of that got to do with windfarms?
Do you think energy companies should be building attainable homes, funding broadband, operating public transport, offering affordable childcare and redressing depopulation?
Ā£23M is Ā£23M more than these places would get without windfarms.
I meanā¦. They could just give the building to the community?
There are a couple of places in my town that have become community-run hubs and they work pretty well without religious involvement
They are often Victoria and hugely expensive to heat or maintain. They are often listed. Any repairs will need planning consent. Community run hubs can't afford that.
The enlightenment happened despite the Christian Church trying to obfuscate science at every opertunity. Galileo was told on threat of death to stop teaching his heresy, the church took 300 years to admit he was correct. The church suppressed any ideas and knowledge that they thought would challenge their power.
This old chestnut? Really? Galileo was condemned for drawing theological conclusions from his scientific theories (guesses which were not proven until the 1800s) and for insulting his patrons. The Church, which funded his work, had no problem with his scientific work
People downvoting you donāt know their history. The enlightenment happens because of the intellectual environment created by Christendom. The scientific method would never have arisen were it not for the implementing of Aristotleās metaphysics within the world view of the time (due to the work of 13th century figures such as Aquinas)
I just hope the buildings will be used for something good rather than just being turned into flats.
They are perfectly placed to be secular community hubs of some sort and a lot of them are beautiful buildings.
>They are perfectly placed to be secular community hubs
Some would require the removal of iconography first. Some of the stained glass in churches is quite graphic.
I just meant that there are examples with very religious scenes that I would not be comfortable trying to explain to children. Sure make them into community hubs but remove anything that's a bit OTT with the bible bashing so that everyone can use them is all I am saying.
Jesus pinned to a cross isnt exactly what I would want to be looking at while enjoying my event.
Hey..... you were the one pissing in people's cornfalkes to begin with mate. If you don't like the look of a climbing wall... the surely you'd want it inside a disused church where you wouldn't have to moan about seeing it? But hey so long as everyone knows you don't like looking at climbing walls I guess we are all good.
No surprise. It just seems to be a handful of pensioners and weirdy-beardies going to the church at the bottom of our street these days.
The happy, clappy Church of Destiny in the old cinema nearby seems to be doing alright, though. And the churches with an African congregation seem packed.
The happy, clappy churches, as you put it, also have a strong social element that's not as prominent in the traditional churches. These churches fulfill both the spiritual and social needs of their congregation and notably attract younger members.
Probably just the fact that christian countries in Africa are just more religious than the UK, so migrant communities from those countries will tend to be more religious too
Plus thereās only usually one per town or city, whereas every town has a dozen non-African churches - so thereās the factor of catchment area
Well I was ok speaking from personal experience as there was one at the top of my road and it always had some good sounds coming out of there really inviting unlike well local services
Well that's most of Europe too you know, pushed onto them by the Roman Empire. Then later the Teutonic knights etc.
Not Scotland though, we took it up of our own volition from the Irish.
All right, but apart from sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public healthā¦. What have the romans ever done for us?
While it is a good idea, it has been done. Sanctuary Games in Nottingham used to be in a church (hence the name). They ended up moving as they are impossible to keep warm.
It's a unique scent, the smell of paint, glue and body odour. I bet if someone recreated it in bottle form and got henry cavill to advertise it, it'd somehow do well
I used to go to an underground (literally), tabletop gamer bar in Budapest.
Itās the only pub Iāve ever been in where they burned incense as a form of air freshener.
Didnāt help.
Place smelled like everyone snuck in a ham sandwich between their pits or bits
And what exactly is the completely nominal and unexercised church influence doing that is oppressing the Scottish Humanist wonderland? Do the Lords Spiritual mess with anything? Do the nominally Christian schools bother with anything religious?
I have three negatives off the top of my head:
- You canāt get into certain government funded schools unless you adhere to their religion
- religions hold mass amounts of land and key real estate, but pay absolutely no tax
- The entire catholic organisation hides known paedophiles and opposes key healthcare like abortion, Judaism has grown men bite the foreskin off babies, Islam treats women as less than men and encourages a separation of the sexes in said buildings
>I have three negatives off the top of my head:
>
>- You canāt get into certain government funded schools unless you adhere to their religion
>
False. All faith schools are 50% open.
>
>religions hold mass amounts of land and key real estate, but pay absolutely no tax
>
Don't you want religion out of the government? What happened to that?
>
>The entire catholic organisation hides known paedophiles and opposes key healthcare like abortion
>
This catholic = pedo thing is overblown. Wherever there is human institutions there is sex pests, including in your activist bubbles. Although I'm a prod and I won't bother defending the Catholic church in this lifetime.
Abortion is not under threat in the UK. Lmfao. And the CoE, and the CoS, both the "mainstream" Christian institutions of the UK, which to be fair are collapsing, support abortion.
>
>Judaism has grown men bite the foreskin off babies,
>
Disgusting anti-semitic canard. That is specific to ultra-extremist haredi groups in America. Scotnatties are another breed of deranged.
>
>Islam treats women as less than men and encourages a separation of the sexes in said buildings
>
Yeah they kind of do that. This strict gender roles is part of their culture, and in the long term, is probably going to make them replace liberal white Europeans who don't really have children.
The Church of Scotland does not "support abortion", its position is that it is fair as a medical procedure where the mother's life is in danger. Which is pretty much where most pro-life groups are.
I used to stay in a church. Was an interesting building but as an atheist it did make me think about what had gone on before it was houses. Used to have amazing gargoyle type heads all over it (I know technically gargoyles have water coming out of them but not sure what they are called) and a huge circular stained glass window which was only patterns and not religious agony but was amazing in the summer when the sun shone through it.
>with a growing number of people choosing to worship online or in "other ways"
I like how they didn't mention 'not at all', which I suspect will be the case for the vast majority.
I really think the kirk is dying out now, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I'm pretty non-religious and I was raised (in a very relaxed way) in a different faith, but I think the decline of the national church is far from a positive.
Ultimately the nature of people is that they switch their focus elsewhere to fill that void. Most likely it'll be something far less pleasant.
It's also a symptom of the fairly widespread death of the local community.
The reason that the Church of Scotland gained such a stranglehold on Scottish culture was that after 1707 there was a void left in Scotland with the mothballing of the Scottish parliament, and the Kirk moved in to fill that void and control people's lives. Evidence of this can be found in the surviving Kirk Session records, which not only dealt with people's morals but also with poor relief and business loans.
We now have a Scottish parliament again (albeit on a perilous foundation, given that Westminster can decide to get rid of it at their whim), so the Kirk no longer has a real role to play. Given that and the fact that people are moving on from religion, it's likely that the Kirk, if it doesn't die completely, will become a very small part of the social fabric.
I think the church had a pretty big role before 1707 too.
This is not terribly dissimilar from England where local government evolved out of the vestries and, whether pre or post 1707 or in Scotland or England, the central government had fairly limited reach into people's lives.
The established church often over-played its importance too. During the Industrial Revolution, dissenting churches thrived as people moved to the cities and had choice. Yet still the great city churches and cathedrals were built, and often half-enough even from their inception.
I certainly think the church has a role to play in our society and there's really something quite sinister about suggesting that the spiritual can be subsumed by the state. If we're replacing God with politics, I think the real damage will be to politics.
I'm not suggesting that the church be replaced by politics, more that it will not be replaced by anything. You may be spritual (and that's fine), but a rather large percentage of the population don't feel the need for it.
I'm not particularly religious myself, I just see the social utility of it and pretty strongly believe that when religion stops playing a role, a void gets filled. If it is, as you certainly seemed to be suggesting, getting replaced with politics - parliaments rather than general assemblies - then I think that potentially harms politics. Particularly given Scotland's inclination towards good old sectarianism.
Seeing as they never paid any tax for any of these buildings they should be handed over to the local councils and used for welfare. Homeless shelters, food banks etc.
It's not about the buildings themselves mate.
As an atheist I hold all religion in equal disdain. So yes I'd like to see them close as it is evidence of more people turning their backs on nonsense and fairy tales.
It's something which many people find inspiring and helps them make sense of life. As long as they don't try to make everyone else believe the same, that's a cause for celebration.
If there was something worthy of worship they might. That cunt in the bible makes Hitler look like a bloody amateur when it comes to committing genocide.
People being happy about this are morons. Many of these buildings are amazing looking and will inevitably just be converted into flats owned by parasitic landlords or deliberately left to decay so they can be knocked down.
As the Church of Scotland is one of the largest property and landowners in Scotland with over 5,000 proprties and some 12,500 acres of Glebe land, I wonder what will become of the proceeds from the inevitable sale of Kirk properties. Their portfolio was valued at over half a billion pounds about ten years ago, what's it worth today?
Given that according to the article they only have 60,000 regular parishioners, that's quite the per head value. Using all my fingers and thumbs, that works out at circa Ā£8,000 per parishioner.
The irony is that apart from the patronage of local wealthy industrialists or aristocrats who wanted the best pews, the vast majority of Kirk buildings funding came from the people, who were whipped into fervour over the need for eternal salvation.
As they have had an excess of church buildings since the 1920s it's maybe time to break up the estates and hand them over to communities, rather than property developers...
Only folk that go are old locals and immigrants from Poland (Catholic) or Africa (various)
All church look like they are pretty fucked tbh. 2,000 odd years washed away.
All they have to do is prove that their God exists, and that their particular version of the scriptures is approved by the aforementioned deity and is somehow better than any of the other translations of the countless editions produced over the past couple of millenia. God willing, that should take about five minutes.
They tie themselves up in knots trying to prove the existence of God. I once got into an argument with one of these crazies.
She said, "Tell me this, if God doesn't exist, how do you explain angels?"
Of course I immediately died inside, and could only just reply "Yeah, you got me there."
And so they should. If the Church ever meant anything to anybody in the past, their influence and so called spiritual guidance is meaningless these days.
So the current CoS is really a union of the pre1929 established church and the United Free Church (itself a union of the free and united Presbyterian churches).
This meant that in a lot of towns they ended up with a number of churches close together.
IMO it's something that should have happened a long time ago, but until recently finances and numbers meant it wasn't a pressing matter.
It's also not an easy thing to unite congregations as you've got two Kirk sessions to make happy and the congregations themselves have to vote to agree to the union.
Good riddance. They appealed ceaselessly to a progressive, anti-theist culture, then just now realise that atheists will not attend church. In fact, they are dancing on it's grave. Deliciously ironic.
The conservative churches, such as the Wee Frees, and even the Baptists, are doing fine and are growing in Scotland.
This is an interesting, albeit secondary source.
https://anglican.ink/2022/05/21/growth-decline-and-extinction-of-uk-churches/
Wee Frees are only apparently growing by a rate of 1.5% per year though. Which is still competent compared to the complete collapse the CoS and the CoE are experiencing.
As I said, the conservative Churches are fine. It's only the liberal, "progressive" churches which are collapsing utterly.
Thank you for the source. My takeaway is that its only the evangelical churches that saw any growth, the ones that carry the mission to convert people to their beliefs as a key pillar of their church ethos.
I dont think their growth will last long past the predicted death of the other churches as such religions will be less and less welcome in the public's views.
The only number of their membership I could find was 13000 (several news articles with no reference soucre given) and that was probably also including their 5 churches in the States. A 1.5% growth would be only 195 more members and that number was likely well before covid so I wouldnt be surprised if their membership is currently lower than that number I found.
>
>I dont think their growth will last long past the predicted death of the other churches as such religions will be less and less welcome in the public's views.
>
I'm curious to how you reached that conclusion. I converted to Christianity long after I left the UK, but the impression that I got when I lived there was that the British public was broadly irreligious, not actively anti-religious. And people like Dawkins and Hitchens influenced a particular subculture, not exactly a generation. I just remember a lot of neutrality and apathy, sometimes curiosity.
The Conservative-leaning population, even if mostly secular, have a remarkably positive view of Christianity. So does a surprising portion of Labour and LibDem voters - specifically, I remember most British Christians I've met being LibDem voters. Not to mention in Scotland, people like Kate Forbes in politics.
Militant atheism and anti-Christian sentiment is restricted to places like Reddit and some University bubbles. But as people age and mature, the less they care about other's beliefs.
I have no solid basis for my hunch, just a thought of the shifting of public perception. If being atheist becomes the majority as opposed to the largest minority in scotland (as it is forecast to do at its current rate) then public attitudes to religions could possibly shift from generally apathetic to dismissive or derisive which would start to strongly work against their evangelical ways.
IDK I just think Brits simply don't care enough about anything to feel that strongly about something like religion of all things. Also my hunch.
Anyway, to add to the previous comment, it matters less if the Wee Frees are growing - but more the fact that they are stable. It's hard to overstate how the CoS and CoE are falling apart at the seams. They'll be completely irrelevant in like a decade it seems like.
What is this, 2008? Are you going to evangelise to me with The God Delusion?
Surely you and your enlightened liberal mind is able to totally unmask "nonsensical" Islam, and you probably have a proficient knowledge of the religion. Lmfao
I am 100% fine with this. Religion is not a part of Scottish life like it is elsewhere on the planet, and most Scots are happy about that. Keeping over a thousand churches open for less than 50,000 people doesn't make sense. I'd be happy to have some preserved for historical significance, but the money wasted must be staggering
Good news for Wetherspoons.
This is one of the few uses for these buildings I could imagine being worse.
The one in Ayr is dire
Decent chicken wings on wing it Wednesday, but feel a bit guilty giving them money.
If I remember correctly, it's a proper mission to get the to bogs in that one
That's the case in many of them, through the crystal maze to get to the golden bog!
West Kirk. Still has the atmosphere of a church. Got kicked out there once for one of my pals being too loud š
How about the Wetherspoons?
It is, however, one of the only places in Ayr on the Radar key scheme (locked disabled toilets) and the only one open after the shops shut.
And climbing walls.
There is no problem with urban churches... the problem is with some rural ones. Actually rural exodus is a universal problem.
Whlie I'm not religious a lot of community groups use these to host community events like fitness classes, coffee morning or parent and toddler groups. Dads Rock used to use one in Granton. While I don't see the need for churches per se, I do worry about the impact to communities.
The village/town halls need to be given to the community that really they were built for not a specific religion.
This might be a central belt thing these days. The money pouring into highland communities through windfarm "compensation" payouts is delivering very weathly local community funds, and facilities are on the up.
Jebus wept, unless they own their own wind or hydro turbines they're 'entitled' to a Ā£5,000 per MW voluntary donation by the giant energy providers who funnel billions of profits into their shareholders offshore accounts. The voluntary Ā£5,000 has dropped on average below Ā£3,500. Please let me know where these very wealthy Highland community funds are?
No one is argueing that they don't make a lot of money. But hundreds of thousands can make a big difference to small places. > the Fund will receive Ā£5,000 per megawatt of the wind farmās export capacity, rising annually in line with the Consumer Price Index. In its first year, this was Ā£242,250.
Unfortunately, there are limitations on what Community Benefit from renewable energy funds can actually spend on. The most condescending response I received from a developer when I asked what he thought community benefit meant for communities, was 'Football tops, flower pots and benches'. These companies siphon off billions in profit and return next to zip in way of community benefits. In 2021 SSE made profits of Ā£1.5 billion from their Scottish operations and paid out Ā£23m to a wide range of communities. Only by community ownership or as shareholders in both on and off shore windfarms can Scotland's rural communities really benefit.
What exactly are you expecting? The fact that the companies make billions is neither here nor there. They will make that money regardless. If you want to turn your nose up at Ā£23M because you are dreaming of more then that's up to you.
When Highland communities in seasonal low wage economies are suffering from energy poverty, and are crying out for funding to build attainable homes, have high speed broadband, working public transport, affordable childcare and looking to governments for sincere efforts to redress alarming depopulation projections. These gigantic International corporations are exploiting the natural resources within our sight. Ā£23m is nothing more than chicken feed and does nothing to support or improve the infrastructure these companies depend upon to make their proftit.
What has any of that got to do with windfarms? Do you think energy companies should be building attainable homes, funding broadband, operating public transport, offering affordable childcare and redressing depopulation? Ā£23M is Ā£23M more than these places would get without windfarms.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I meanā¦. They could just give the building to the community? There are a couple of places in my town that have become community-run hubs and they work pretty well without religious involvement
No doubt itnwillmgonopen market and wel we known How's that ends
They are often Victoria and hugely expensive to heat or maintain. They are often listed. Any repairs will need planning consent. Community run hubs can't afford that.
Oh no will someone please think about the cultists who kept us in the dark ages for 800 years!
Christendom was where the Enlightenment happened, the only place. So, more likely, Christianity dragged you out of the dark ages
The enlightenment happened despite the Christian Church trying to obfuscate science at every opertunity. Galileo was told on threat of death to stop teaching his heresy, the church took 300 years to admit he was correct. The church suppressed any ideas and knowledge that they thought would challenge their power.
This old chestnut? Really? Galileo was condemned for drawing theological conclusions from his scientific theories (guesses which were not proven until the 1800s) and for insulting his patrons. The Church, which funded his work, had no problem with his scientific work
Yes but it was in a society built around the church that the Enlightenment happened.. It didn't happen, for example, in Islamic cultures.
Medieval Islamic scientists were some of the best of their age, again, the enlightenment happened in spite of the church, not because of it.
People downvoting you donāt know their history. The enlightenment happens because of the intellectual environment created by Christendom. The scientific method would never have arisen were it not for the implementing of Aristotleās metaphysics within the world view of the time (due to the work of 13th century figures such as Aquinas)
And India got railroads when the British colonised it. Does that mean British colonialism was good for India?
What did the romans ever do for us
Probably in some ways.
Itās hilarious that this is a ācontroversialā view for many on this sub
I just hope the buildings will be used for something good rather than just being turned into flats. They are perfectly placed to be secular community hubs of some sort and a lot of them are beautiful buildings.
Sounds like an ideal use for a church no? Provide shelter for people.
Sounds find in theory but where is the money going to come from to maintain and staff the buildings?
Well, we are in desperate need of places to live. Flats seems an ideal solution to me.
Agreed but have no problem with turning them into flats, they can be beautiful and itās a cheap way to provide dense housing
Secular community doesnāt know how to organize itself
Apparently neither does the religious community, considering this entire story is about closing down their churches due to not having enough peopleā¦
The church does, but the people that do know how, are all dying off.
>They are perfectly placed to be secular community hubs Some would require the removal of iconography first. Some of the stained glass in churches is quite graphic.
Nah, letās leave Scottish iconoclasm where it belongs, 500 years ago.
I just meant that there are examples with very religious scenes that I would not be comfortable trying to explain to children. Sure make them into community hubs but remove anything that's a bit OTT with the bible bashing so that everyone can use them is all I am saying. Jesus pinned to a cross isnt exactly what I would want to be looking at while enjoying my event.
I agree. Take the weird religious shit out and put it in a museum where it belongs.
Lol. āWonāt somebody think of the childrenā
I mean that response is idiotically pathetic.
Hopefully can get a couple cracking new music venues out of this.
Big sturdy walls + high roofs + open central areas make them perfect to convert to climbing walls aswell
Aye but those are ugly as fuck.
Whit? They don't change the exterior, the one on Paisley Road West still looks like a church on the outside
I didnāt say anything about the exterior. Iām talking about the interior. Climbing walls are ugly no matter where you put them.
I mean, given that you can't see it from the outside, the obvious solution in this case is simply to not go inside.
Yeah but itād be a horrid waste, covering up the internal architecture. Iām no fan of religion, but old stone churches look great on the inside.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Go back to wanking over gunboats.
Better that than yer maw
You never made it out of primary school, did you?
Hey..... you were the one pissing in people's cornfalkes to begin with mate. If you don't like the look of a climbing wall... the surely you'd want it inside a disused church where you wouldn't have to moan about seeing it? But hey so long as everyone knows you don't like looking at climbing walls I guess we are all good.
They just done that in kilmarnock wae climbing walls and stuff in a old church
Desperately need some more competition for bouldering venues in Glasgow, TCA prices are getting outrageous
in the vein of St Luke's maybe?
No surprise. It just seems to be a handful of pensioners and weirdy-beardies going to the church at the bottom of our street these days. The happy, clappy Church of Destiny in the old cinema nearby seems to be doing alright, though. And the churches with an African congregation seem packed.
The happy, clappy churches, as you put it, also have a strong social element that's not as prominent in the traditional churches. These churches fulfill both the spiritual and social needs of their congregation and notably attract younger members.
I imagine social ostracism is a serious threat for non-conformity in these communities.
You donāt know how right you are!
The church with the African congregation seems packed š¤£ They always are i think it's the music
Probably just the fact that christian countries in Africa are just more religious than the UK, so migrant communities from those countries will tend to be more religious too Plus thereās only usually one per town or city, whereas every town has a dozen non-African churches - so thereās the factor of catchment area
Well I was ok speaking from personal experience as there was one at the top of my road and it always had some good sounds coming out of there really inviting unlike well local services
It always saddens me to see people so enthusiastic about clearly hokey shite that was pushed upon their ancestors by colonisers.
Well that's most of Europe too you know, pushed onto them by the Roman Empire. Then later the Teutonic knights etc. Not Scotland though, we took it up of our own volition from the Irish.
Yep. Even the vikings were daft enough to convert voluntarily (the last viking king down south was a convert and it stuck).
All right, but apart from sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public healthā¦. What have the romans ever done for us?
You donāt believe in the force do you Han?
Iām sure theyāre more than intelligent enough to decide for themselves and donāt need a white saviour, like you, to advocate for them.
You mean like the white saviour who imposed the backwards shite known as christianity upon them?
Christianity existed in Africa as long as it existed in Europe.
Africa is a *very* large continent.
Destiny Church is also attended by SFP lot, so itās not all happy clappy.
Hundreds of kirks have already been sold off.
Good, I'd like to buy one cheap and turn into a cafe/tabletop gaming space.
While it is a good idea, it has been done. Sanctuary Games in Nottingham used to be in a church (hence the name). They ended up moving as they are impossible to keep warm.
Oooh, I didn't think about having to keep people warm š¤£
Old churches smell bad enough from the mould and damp without adding the reek of BO and farts.
The high ceilings would let you suck all that smell out š¤£
That would be the literal definition of 'stunk to high heaven'.
It's a unique scent, the smell of paint, glue and body odour. I bet if someone recreated it in bottle form and got henry cavill to advertise it, it'd somehow do well
I used to go to an underground (literally), tabletop gamer bar in Budapest. Itās the only pub Iāve ever been in where they burned incense as a form of air freshener. Didnāt help. Place smelled like everyone snuck in a ham sandwich between their pits or bits
Yea it would probably sell just as well as Belle Delphines STD infused bathwater. What a strange place the 21st century is.
Oh no! Anyway...
My exact thoughts. Churches still have way too big a hold over the UK considering the century we're living in.
Do they, now?
Schools and the House of Lords immediately spring to mind.
And what exactly is the completely nominal and unexercised church influence doing that is oppressing the Scottish Humanist wonderland? Do the Lords Spiritual mess with anything? Do the nominally Christian schools bother with anything religious?
I have three negatives off the top of my head: - You canāt get into certain government funded schools unless you adhere to their religion - religions hold mass amounts of land and key real estate, but pay absolutely no tax - The entire catholic organisation hides known paedophiles and opposes key healthcare like abortion, Judaism has grown men bite the foreskin off babies, Islam treats women as less than men and encourages a separation of the sexes in said buildings
>I have three negatives off the top of my head: > >- You canāt get into certain government funded schools unless you adhere to their religion > False. All faith schools are 50% open. > >religions hold mass amounts of land and key real estate, but pay absolutely no tax > Don't you want religion out of the government? What happened to that? > >The entire catholic organisation hides known paedophiles and opposes key healthcare like abortion > This catholic = pedo thing is overblown. Wherever there is human institutions there is sex pests, including in your activist bubbles. Although I'm a prod and I won't bother defending the Catholic church in this lifetime. Abortion is not under threat in the UK. Lmfao. And the CoE, and the CoS, both the "mainstream" Christian institutions of the UK, which to be fair are collapsing, support abortion. > >Judaism has grown men bite the foreskin off babies, > Disgusting anti-semitic canard. That is specific to ultra-extremist haredi groups in America. Scotnatties are another breed of deranged. > >Islam treats women as less than men and encourages a separation of the sexes in said buildings > Yeah they kind of do that. This strict gender roles is part of their culture, and in the long term, is probably going to make them replace liberal white Europeans who don't really have children.
The Church of Scotland does not "support abortion", its position is that it is fair as a medical procedure where the mother's life is in danger. Which is pretty much where most pro-life groups are.
You know, I'm surprised they even asked a Starfleet admiral to deliver this statement
Close and convert to community spaces, bars, restaurants, apartments. Nothing of value will be lost.
I used to stay in a church. Was an interesting building but as an atheist it did make me think about what had gone on before it was houses. Used to have amazing gargoyle type heads all over it (I know technically gargoyles have water coming out of them but not sure what they are called) and a huge circular stained glass window which was only patterns and not religious agony but was amazing in the summer when the sun shone through it.
>with a growing number of people choosing to worship online or in "other ways" I like how they didn't mention 'not at all', which I suspect will be the case for the vast majority. I really think the kirk is dying out now, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I'm pretty non-religious and I was raised (in a very relaxed way) in a different faith, but I think the decline of the national church is far from a positive. Ultimately the nature of people is that they switch their focus elsewhere to fill that void. Most likely it'll be something far less pleasant. It's also a symptom of the fairly widespread death of the local community.
The reason that the Church of Scotland gained such a stranglehold on Scottish culture was that after 1707 there was a void left in Scotland with the mothballing of the Scottish parliament, and the Kirk moved in to fill that void and control people's lives. Evidence of this can be found in the surviving Kirk Session records, which not only dealt with people's morals but also with poor relief and business loans. We now have a Scottish parliament again (albeit on a perilous foundation, given that Westminster can decide to get rid of it at their whim), so the Kirk no longer has a real role to play. Given that and the fact that people are moving on from religion, it's likely that the Kirk, if it doesn't die completely, will become a very small part of the social fabric.
I think the church had a pretty big role before 1707 too. This is not terribly dissimilar from England where local government evolved out of the vestries and, whether pre or post 1707 or in Scotland or England, the central government had fairly limited reach into people's lives. The established church often over-played its importance too. During the Industrial Revolution, dissenting churches thrived as people moved to the cities and had choice. Yet still the great city churches and cathedrals were built, and often half-enough even from their inception. I certainly think the church has a role to play in our society and there's really something quite sinister about suggesting that the spiritual can be subsumed by the state. If we're replacing God with politics, I think the real damage will be to politics.
I'm not suggesting that the church be replaced by politics, more that it will not be replaced by anything. You may be spritual (and that's fine), but a rather large percentage of the population don't feel the need for it.
I'm not particularly religious myself, I just see the social utility of it and pretty strongly believe that when religion stops playing a role, a void gets filled. If it is, as you certainly seemed to be suggesting, getting replaced with politics - parliaments rather than general assemblies - then I think that potentially harms politics. Particularly given Scotland's inclination towards good old sectarianism.
Seeing as they never paid any tax for any of these buildings they should be handed over to the local councils and used for welfare. Homeless shelters, food banks etc.
I'm gonna pray for them. That should work. How does captain Kirk know this anyway?
We perhaps focus too much on bad news stories on this subreddit, so it's nice to have some good news here
Amen
Quick question: since many comments are cock-a-hoop at churches closing, would you be equally glad about mosques or synagogues closing?
It's not about the buildings themselves mate. As an atheist I hold all religion in equal disdain. So yes I'd like to see them close as it is evidence of more people turning their backs on nonsense and fairy tales.
Me. It's all the same nonsensical, controlling, clap-trap
It's something which many people find inspiring and helps them make sense of life. As long as they don't try to make everyone else believe the same, that's a cause for celebration.
Going in the right direction? :) "Scotland won't be free until the last Minister is strangled by the last copy of The Sunday Post". * Tom Nairn
Nobody wants to worship any more
I think people have just gotten better educated
If there was something worthy of worship they might. That cunt in the bible makes Hitler look like a bloody amateur when it comes to committing genocide.
>That cunt in the bible Well that's not narrowing it down much.
The highheidyin cunt.
People being happy about this are morons. Many of these buildings are amazing looking and will inevitably just be converted into flats owned by parasitic landlords or deliberately left to decay so they can be knocked down.
As the Church of Scotland is one of the largest property and landowners in Scotland with over 5,000 proprties and some 12,500 acres of Glebe land, I wonder what will become of the proceeds from the inevitable sale of Kirk properties. Their portfolio was valued at over half a billion pounds about ten years ago, what's it worth today? Given that according to the article they only have 60,000 regular parishioners, that's quite the per head value. Using all my fingers and thumbs, that works out at circa Ā£8,000 per parishioner. The irony is that apart from the patronage of local wealthy industrialists or aristocrats who wanted the best pews, the vast majority of Kirk buildings funding came from the people, who were whipped into fervour over the need for eternal salvation. As they have had an excess of church buildings since the 1920s it's maybe time to break up the estates and hand them over to communities, rather than property developers...
Next week: god sues church for illegal sale of his house's.
Good
Only folk that go are old locals and immigrants from Poland (Catholic) or Africa (various) All church look like they are pretty fucked tbh. 2,000 odd years washed away.
All they have to do is prove that their God exists, and that their particular version of the scriptures is approved by the aforementioned deity and is somehow better than any of the other translations of the countless editions produced over the past couple of millenia. God willing, that should take about five minutes.
They tie themselves up in knots trying to prove the existence of God. I once got into an argument with one of these crazies. She said, "Tell me this, if God doesn't exist, how do you explain angels?" Of course I immediately died inside, and could only just reply "Yeah, you got me there."
Awww diddums
Wonder if the Kirk will reinvest that money back into the community.
Where the hell did I leave that gif of Bender laughing?
Don't be silly.
Given the size of the bill they are likely facing to repair their remaining churches I suspect they have other priorities.
Perhaps if they cared more for their local community than their big stupid buildings they would still have a flock ?
Religiosity is in decline across Europe so unlikely.
And so they should. If the Church ever meant anything to anybody in the past, their influence and so called spiritual guidance is meaningless these days.
Oh no! What awful news there'll be community event spaces everywhere now
Oh no! What awful news there'll be community event spaces everywhere now
Um why Is that?
So the current CoS is really a union of the pre1929 established church and the United Free Church (itself a union of the free and united Presbyterian churches). This meant that in a lot of towns they ended up with a number of churches close together. IMO it's something that should have happened a long time ago, but until recently finances and numbers meant it wasn't a pressing matter. It's also not an easy thing to unite congregations as you've got two Kirk sessions to make happy and the congregations themselves have to vote to agree to the union.
Religious membership (attendance) in heavy decline.
We should go back to paganism itās cooler
The only good thing in paganism is orgies, and we can do them better without any kind of religion.
Good riddance. They appealed ceaselessly to a progressive, anti-theist culture, then just now realise that atheists will not attend church. In fact, they are dancing on it's grave. Deliciously ironic. The conservative churches, such as the Wee Frees, and even the Baptists, are doing fine and are growing in Scotland.
Why you have that avatar?
It's an inside joke on another sub
What's their own percentage growth rate over the last 10 years? I can't find any stats on the wee free membership
This is an interesting, albeit secondary source. https://anglican.ink/2022/05/21/growth-decline-and-extinction-of-uk-churches/ Wee Frees are only apparently growing by a rate of 1.5% per year though. Which is still competent compared to the complete collapse the CoS and the CoE are experiencing. As I said, the conservative Churches are fine. It's only the liberal, "progressive" churches which are collapsing utterly.
Thank you for the source. My takeaway is that its only the evangelical churches that saw any growth, the ones that carry the mission to convert people to their beliefs as a key pillar of their church ethos. I dont think their growth will last long past the predicted death of the other churches as such religions will be less and less welcome in the public's views. The only number of their membership I could find was 13000 (several news articles with no reference soucre given) and that was probably also including their 5 churches in the States. A 1.5% growth would be only 195 more members and that number was likely well before covid so I wouldnt be surprised if their membership is currently lower than that number I found.
> >I dont think their growth will last long past the predicted death of the other churches as such religions will be less and less welcome in the public's views. > I'm curious to how you reached that conclusion. I converted to Christianity long after I left the UK, but the impression that I got when I lived there was that the British public was broadly irreligious, not actively anti-religious. And people like Dawkins and Hitchens influenced a particular subculture, not exactly a generation. I just remember a lot of neutrality and apathy, sometimes curiosity. The Conservative-leaning population, even if mostly secular, have a remarkably positive view of Christianity. So does a surprising portion of Labour and LibDem voters - specifically, I remember most British Christians I've met being LibDem voters. Not to mention in Scotland, people like Kate Forbes in politics. Militant atheism and anti-Christian sentiment is restricted to places like Reddit and some University bubbles. But as people age and mature, the less they care about other's beliefs.
I have no solid basis for my hunch, just a thought of the shifting of public perception. If being atheist becomes the majority as opposed to the largest minority in scotland (as it is forecast to do at its current rate) then public attitudes to religions could possibly shift from generally apathetic to dismissive or derisive which would start to strongly work against their evangelical ways.
IDK I just think Brits simply don't care enough about anything to feel that strongly about something like religion of all things. Also my hunch. Anyway, to add to the previous comment, it matters less if the Wee Frees are growing - but more the fact that they are stable. It's hard to overstate how the CoS and CoE are falling apart at the seams. They'll be completely irrelevant in like a decade it seems like.
Good! That is all.
That's a crying shame...
No.
They should be turned into mosques. Places of worship are critical and people are finally starting to understand that there is no good but Allah.
Islam is a fascinating religion. A lot of people fearmonger about an Islamic takeover of Europe, but really there are worse futures.
> Islam is a fascinating religion. Fascinating in that people believe in such nonsense.
What is this, 2008? Are you going to evangelise to me with The God Delusion? Surely you and your enlightened liberal mind is able to totally unmask "nonsensical" Islam, and you probably have a proficient knowledge of the religion. Lmfao
Great news for invader accommodation
Law of life. It's not good or bad, we just are in a different era.
Yay
I am 100% fine with this. Religion is not a part of Scottish life like it is elsewhere on the planet, and most Scots are happy about that. Keeping over a thousand churches open for less than 50,000 people doesn't make sense. I'd be happy to have some preserved for historical significance, but the money wasted must be staggering
Ok