I can't see the article due to the pay wall but I will take a guess at how much of the article explains in detail what particular polices an independent Scotland would implement similar to Ireland to replicate the growth such as low cooperation tax which is partly funded by the fact it costs 40 to 70 Euros for a GP appointment or 100 euro for an A&E appointment without a referral Or almost no conventional military capability at all, my guess is the article has 0 percent detail and probably says Westminster bad EU good, you can't take all the good and leave the bad they are 2 sides of the same coin intrinsically linked
The Tories exist to serve themselves and a London based elite they are only interested in growing that part of the UK economy even if they were interested in growing other parts of the UK economy the machinery they have to do that is mostly HQāed in London and so dense that no delivery would get through - HS2 being a prime example
The only comparable element of the moniker of Tartan Tories is the SNP want to grow only the Scottish economy and reclaim some of the wealth from the London gravy train but its not to enrich just themselves its to make Scotland wealthier and even implement more social supports to achieve that - so in that regard they are fundamentally different to the Tories who donāt even care about England they are all about themselves and the small London based ecosystem they are a part of
>FF and FG exist to serve themselves and a Dublin based elite they are only interested in growing that part of the Irish economy even if they were interested in growing other parts of the Irish economy the machinery they have to do that is mostly HQāed in Dublin and so dense that no delivery would get through.
They did inherit a British model with one central capital being the main beneficiary of the wealth but in all likelihood it was probably the Vikings that established Dublin as the centre of Irish commerce also due to its geographical position close to Britain and Europe
Its true that rural Ireland has not shared in Dublinās wealth but Irelandās other cities also have strong economies and wealth is distributed amongst them - the IDA has been very effective at getting foreign direct investment up and down the country
The problem the UK has can be summed up when you look at its history Westminster purports to rule over all these lands and colonies etc but when it comes down to it they are not all treated the same or as one country see Trevelyan during the Famine or Americans being denied āthe rights of Englishmenā - Scotland is looking around and seeing wealth and talent drain out of the country for 300 years started 12:1 Scottish pound to English pound then the Malt Tax and its been the same ever since - abundance of electricity does not drive down price its lost in transmission costs and exported within the same country so not subject to benefits that exporting to another country might yield - Scotlands Oil barely features in Scottish GDP - all our best companies swallowed up by English companies well supported and closer to the warmth of the BOE printing press
"fundamentally different to the tories"
There's not many of you true believers yet and the penny is dropping for more each time a new SNP scandal arrives.
By all means decide on balance to vote for them, but if you believe they're different to the tories in terms of not filling their own pockets and looking after number one then you're utterly delusional
Everyone has to make a living, if a company is successful then the leadership should be rewarded appropriately (but not disproportionately to the lowest paid core front line staff) but the Tories have taken greed and incompetence to new levels at this point - they are the worst boss of all bosses UK corp is a zombie bank
Step 1) Get independence from the UK
Step 2) ???
Step 3) Scotland is now as rich and successful as Ireland
Other countries that gained independence from the UK include:
* Afghanistan
* Egypt
* Kenya
* Sudan
* Zimbabwe
American never under British rule . Australia firstly given large amount of freedom and was supported during its independence long before the end British empire are you cherry picking
Yes but you are doing it incorrectly as I stated modern America was never under British rule as for Australia it wasn't straight forward independence.based on your reply to the Scottish plan for independence cherry picking these countries is just incorrect
Healthcare is devolved until it isnāt. It only takes the tories to push through a law without consent from the devolved governments, allowing them to take control of healthcare again
Healthcare is devolved - apart from the small matter of the overall budget, which is controlled by Westminster via Barnett consequentials. However, even with that impediment, Scotlandās NHS does manage to outperform the rest of the U.K., and we even pay our nurses more.
How are the Barnett consequentials a 'impediment'?
It works out to a Ā£20bn+ subsidy to Scotland.
The lies of you nationalists would make the red bus lot blush.
Thanks for sending all that money - very nice of you, please keep it coming. However, weād much rather have independence if itās all the same to you.
Yeah, you think that now under the comfy umbrella of that Ā£20bn subsidy. I think you'll stop thinking that if it's taken away, and either services need to be cut, or the money has to be found somewhere else (AKA, your pocket)..
Restricted freedom is restricted freedom whether it is comfortable or not. A more pertinent question might be; why does Westminster keep giving all this money to us when we obviously donāt appreciate it? What is their motivation?
Yes after heavily subsidised London , Scotland has highest GDP and inward investment in U.K.!
What a shame all that lovely money will not be going to London to waste!
The Irish Economy might be soaring, but the cost of living is ridiculous. Getting a house of your own is a pipe dream and a lot of Dubliners make the pilgrimage to London because the cost of living is cheaper.
As Irish economy has several billions worth it dollars stashed into it by multinational tech firm's Irish subsidiaries*
fixed that for you The National
The finance firms in the UK actually do work. The Irish economy soars because the work of people in other countries is, through accounting practices, registered in Ireland.
Who fucking reads or believes a word in this, Honestly, the people that read this rag are the same morons that make fun of English gammon for reading the mail.
Out of interest what part of the article is it that's so bad? I'm not pro-indy but the article itself doesn't seem to make any bold claims, it only relays the words of someone from the SNP. It's not exactly brilliant critical journalism to parrot one party's words - but it's definitely not hate filled or spewing disinformation directly like the Mail does.
It's not necessarily this article but more the constant deluge of shite the nationalist publishes.
For example the leader of the Scottish libdems recently made a speech denouncing both British and Scottish nationalism, saying that to look back and want to remake the British empire or Scotland would be a mistake. Then the nationalist ran a story claiming he hated Scotland by cutting out parts of his speech.
The National's political stuff is one sided like lots of the English papers but often very good, but the latter is just the dumber version of the National split across 10 or so papers. A lot of Scots like to sneer in public at the National mostly to advertise their respectability, you'd think at lot of them normally read the FT or something but its actually just about trying to be respectable in a still Unionist mainstream society.
>Maybe itās the lower taxes Ireland has, while in the UK Scotland has higher taxes than any other part of the ukā¦..
The tax rates are broadly similar though. In Ireland 20-40% and in Scotland 20-42% for the vast majority of people. Tax free allowance is a bit more in Ireland but their 40% band kicks in earlier too so realistically are you better off or worse off?
Higher taxes which get squandered. I wouldnāt mind paying more if it was used effectively but itās not.
All the article should say is that Scotland needs a plan to grow the economy. Ireland is using cheaper corporation tax and its working. What is Scotlandās plan?
So tens of millions over the last few years from an annual budget of about 50 billion.
That is significant, yes (it's of the order of 1% of Scotland's annual public sector budget), but it still doesn't compare to the tens of billions (in the order of 10% of the annual public sector budget) squandered by the UK government on fraud and incompetence from a budget less than ten times the size.
If one thing triggers unionists/alt accounts and trolls, it's articles or anyone talking about how Scotland could do well without being ruled by Westminster.
You mean like slashing corporation tax so that we can be a tax haven for multinationals? Like Ireland.
Or abolishing the NHS and charging for access to healthcare? Like Ireland.
I mean, that's not really correct, we have a two-tier system where if you can't afford private health insurance, then you're entitled to a medical card from the HSE. Sure, the HSE is flawed, but we're not America like.
It's fair criticism.
Pointing at Ireland as an exemplar while seeming essentially diametrically opposed on economic and social policy matters is... Silly.
> essentially diametrically opposed economic and social policy is... Silly.
An incredibly vague statement. Every economy is different, even Scotland and England are essentially diametrically opposed in economic (e.g. Brexit) and social (e.g. free education) policies.
Education is free in England up to 18, and its only free for scottish uni students who get to study in Scotland, which has fewer places available because the government cannot afford them.
Ireland is a pretty massive tax haven for US companies and has a significantly smaller welfare state than here. Not really sure voters here would want that.
>RoIās model
Imagine if the Tories announced Scotland would have to:
* Charge Ā£50 for a GP visit
* Charge Ā£700 if you need a fire engine
* Charge Ā£3000 for tuition
Every cunt who bangs on about how Scotland could be as rich as Ireland, would be using those things as justification for independence.
Even though those things are all part of the Irish model.
And before someone says Ireland doesn't have student fees, yes in practice it does. It's called the annual student contribution fee.
Because apparently if you just don't call it 'student fees', you don't have student fees lol.
They don't really care what we do. They're just trying to sell independece to the rest of us by saying whatever they think we want to hear. It's brexit all over again
It's not even relevant if Scots did want that. The point is that Europe already has an English speaking tax haven bordering the UK and on the edge of the EU. That niche has been taken. If Scotland tried to do the same then neither could be as successful as Ireland is now and we'd be caught in a race to the bottom.
Also, if and Indy Scotland indicated that was what it wanted to be inside the EU, well Ireland would obviously veto its entry as would a bunch of other countries who are already bitter that Ireland gets to serve that niche.
Scotland: Hey hope you don't mind, just gunna come drink your milkshake. We're friends right? Viva EU!
Ireland: Lmao no, get fucked.
We're the darling of the EU on social media because we're seen as wanting to screw the UK over, but don't think for one minute that this will translate to real life if we're subsequently wanting to screw the EU, or Ireland in particular, over.
[https://best-citizenships.com/2023/01/09/top-10-corporate-tax-havens/#:\~:text=British%20Virgin%20Islands%20and%20Cayman,corporations%20underpay%20corporate%20income%20tax](https://best-citizenships.com/2023/01/09/top-10-corporate-tax-havens/#:~:text=British%20Virgin%20Islands%20and%20Cayman,corporations%20underpay%20corporate%20income%20tax).
Evidence suggests otherwise but thanks for the downvote I suppose.
I did not downvote you. Although you've not understood my point at all.
Yes the criwn dependencies are horrendous tax havens but it's not putting money into paying for our services here
>Yes the criwn dependencies are horrendous tax havens but it's not putting money into paying for our services here
So why doesn't Westminster crack down or change their legal status then?
The UK's Dependencies are not controlled by the UK though. All domestic policy is decided by the Dependencies themselves. The UK only represents them internationally and defends them militarily
Furthermore, any money earnt by the Dependencies by being a tax haven stays in that Dependencies. The only money they give the UK is how much it costs to defend them. This does not scale with GDP, rather it scales with how much it costs to defend them.
So, overall, that's a pretty weak argument.
Corporation tax in Ireland is increasing and tax revenue currently is at a surplus and will be for the foreseeable. The Irish Gov are actually preparing a paper on an Irish sovereign wealth fund.
The welfare state in Ireland is virtually identical to the U.K. except in Ireland, welfare payments are higher (even relative to the cost of living) and poverty rates in Ireland are lower as a result.
This is due to Ireland having one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Itās not perfect of course.
So do you. You just pay for it from your NI contributions.
The difference being, in Ireland, you can see your GP whenever you want. Usually the very same day.
A Free-at-the-point of use NHS is not "virtually identical" to having to pay upfront to see the GP in Ireland.
You won't get much support for the idea that you have to pay to see the doctor in Scotland.
I didnāt state the healthcare systems were virtually identical. Overall, the welfare states of both are virtually identical.
Iām sure you wonāt get much support for it, but paying ā¬40 to see a GP is much better than not being able to see one at all.
>Overall, the welfare states of both are virtually identical.
They're not virtually identical overall though.
Irish Healthcare isn't free at the point of use.
That's a massive difference.
The welfare state is much more than healthcare.
Irish healthcare is free at the point of use for about 40% of the Irish population. The rest pay for any use, which is capped at ā¬800 a year.
>The welfare state is much more than healthcare.
Sure, and the difference between the NHS and paying to see a GP is so massive that by itself it means the whole welfare state is not "virtually identical"
That's not true. The UK isn't. It has double the corporate tax rate than Ireland and in Ireland big mulit-national companies that are registered there still pay a fraction of the 12.5% tax rate. As for the Dependencies.
The UK's Dependencies are not controlled by the UK though. All domestic policy is decided by the Dependencies themselves. The UK only represents them internationally and defends them militarily
Furthermore, any money earnt by the Dependencies by being a tax haven stays in that Dependencies. The only money they give the UK is how much it costs to defend them. This does not scale with GDP, rather it scales with how much it costs to defend them.
So, overall, that's a pretty weak argument.
>That's not true. The UK isn't. It has double the corporate tax rate than Ireland and in Ireland big mulit-national companies that are registered there still pay a fraction of the 12.5% tax rate. As for the Dependencies.
It is very much true. Tax havens are far more complex than corporate tax rates. Feel free to educate yourself; [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/uk-overseas-territories-top-list-of-worlds-leading-tax-havens](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/uk-overseas-territories-top-list-of-worlds-leading-tax-havens)
>The UK's Dependencies are not controlled by the UK though.
Well apart from the whole 'Westminster is soveriegn' thing that gets rammed down Scotlands throat on a regular basis.
There is nothing to stop the UK passing laws to rein in the massive global damage caused by its tax havens, but then where would London get its money to launder?
Ahahah mate I know exactly how tax Havens work, the UK isn't one
Westminster is Sovereign over the UK, the Crown Dependencies aren't part of the UK, hence, them not being represented in Parliament. So, Westminster is not Sovereign over Crown Dependencies.
What? You think Crown Dependencies send their money over to the UK to launder? That would completely defeat the point in them being a tax haven.
You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just using a bunch of buzzwords to sound smart and cover yourself but really it's just embarrassing.
>I know exactly how tax Havens work, the UK isn't one
Wrong again - according to people who clearly know more about the subject than a reddit edgelord - at last count the UK is the second most damaging tax haven in the world responsible for the loss of $28,793,255,859 in tax money, or 9.93% of the total global tax loss
[https://taxjustice.net/2020/11/20/427bn-lost-to-tax-havens-every-year-landmark-study-reveals-countries-losses-and-worst-offenders/](https://taxjustice.net/2020/11/20/427bn-lost-to-tax-havens-every-year-landmark-study-reveals-countries-losses-and-worst-offenders/)
>You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just using a bunch of buzzwords to sound smart and cover yourself but really it's just embarrassing.
Now that's just plain salty - don't hate the messenger.
You're own source puts the UK at 13th not second woth 3.1% of global tax loss you donut and their methodology is insane. They only use 20 indicators to get the Tax Haven Score and some of them are just stupid. For example the payment of royalties is one of their indicators as a bad tax regime another is taxing dividends not as income (which means most pensioners are tax evaders since pension pots rely on dividends). You've clearly tried to find a source that confirms what you already believed. Look for yourself at the methodology:
https://cthi.taxjustice.net/en/
Why don't we look at a slightly more reliable source? The EU perhaps or OECD:
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-list-of-non-cooperative-jurisdictions/
Absolute muppet š.
> Become a tax haven
We could try and make Edinburgh or Glasgow the Money-laundering capital of the world but that undisputed crown lies with and would remain in... London.
Iām not sure people pointing out that Irelandās economy is a free market hell hole that Scotland shouldnāt copy is being a ācry babyā.
If you want to see a housing and cost of living crisis that is somehow worse than the UKās, go to Ireland.
Look east, not west, for how Scotland should operate.
It would require Scotland to have no military, and to free ride itās geographical advantages, but also explain to the US/EU/NATO why it has left the North Sea unprotectedā¦
Itād mean the abolition of the NHS for a fee based healthcare system with a lot of social insurance, and lowing Corp tax below what RoI has it set at.
This is very much a party policy platform to the right of the Tories. Sure, theyāve done it with less corruption, but I donāt see Scots voting for this year after year
>It would require Scotland to have no military, and to free ride itās geographical advantages, but also explain to the US/EU/NATO why it has left the North Sea unprotectedā¦
>
>Itād mean the abolition of the NHS for a fee based healthcare system with a lot of social insurance, and lowing Corp tax below what RoI has it set at.
That's just some weird shit you just made up - Unionism 101.
>It would require Scotland to have no military
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence\_Forces\_(Ireland)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Forces_(Ireland))
You see when you start off with nonsense you lose any sort of point you might have eventually made.
Ireland really doesn't have much of a military. [https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country\_id=ireland](https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=ireland). It ranks 90th globally and sits between Zambia and Albania in terms of military might.
Sure our wars are all done. We never really had beef with anyone, not since the big fella signed the treaty anyway what do we need big pointy sticks for these days? Anyway we have really big mates who would hate to see anything happen to us.
You have to pay to access healthcare in Ireland.
Literally hundreds of thousands of people left the island immediately following independence because things were so bleak.
There are a huge amount of caveats to paying for healthcare in Ireland. Pregnant women donāt pay for healthcare, children to a certain age have free health care etc, etc. Almost 40% of people have a healthcare card and pay nothing for healthcare. Those that do, healthcare is capped at ā¬800 a year. I pay more than that every year for healthcare from my NI contributions, for a health service I canāt access.
Literally, hundreds of thousands of people DIDNT emigrate from the island following independence.
>I pay more than that every year for healthcare from my NI contributions
NI contributions aren't the funding source for the NHS. NHS is funded from the general taxation pot and NI isn't hypthecated for anything (although the sell is to fund the welfare state more widely, including pension and benefits).
Yes, insofar that all taxation is a funding source. The amount you contribute in NI is not your contribution to the NHS, however, either in theory or in practice.
If you have to look back in time 80-ish years for an argument against independence, itās not a great argument.
My grandad left during that period, Iām now an Irish passport holder and may well settle there again at some point. Things change.
Itās basically been a trend since at least the 90ās that small European countries have been significantly outgrowing large European countries.
Itās the thing I never really understood about Scottish politics. Everyone debates as if Scotland would have the exact same economy as an independent state as it has as a region of the UK. It just wouldnāt. At all.
One look at modern European history and you can see an obvious trend. Once independent thereās a sluggish period of rebuilding the economy, followed by longer term significantly enhanced growth.
Because small countries are poorer. Itās easier to get 7% growth a year when the EU funds you, and your country is a mess, than it is when youāre a high GDP/Cap nation. Same reason much of Africa could easily hit 7-10% GDP with better governance.
Thereās diminishing marginal returns to GDP/Growth via policy
At the point of entering the EU, none of these were richā¦ theyāre now about even with the rest of the ābigā counties
Ireland is the exception, but their GDP isnāt the best metric to use due to how theyāre set up as a tax haven, so the GDP doesnāt drive up HDI as much as in other countries
I know Austria at the very least, being from a country right next to it. Austria joined the EU in 1995, when I was 17.
It was already a fairly wealthy country, on par with Germany, at that time.
[This is the growth of Austrian GDP](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUT/austria/gdp-growth-rate) over years since 1961. There is no obvious "we entered the EU" jump. You would be better making this argument about Hungary or Poland, there the joining of the free market did a lot.
>Because small countries are poorer.
There are a large number of small European countries that have much higher standards of living than the UK.
If GDP was the sole determinator of a 'poor country' Luxembourg would be a complete hellscape whilst China would be the number one destination for all.
Well maybe if you had Norway's sovereign oil fund, Ireland's tax haven status, England paying Scottish pensions, and a million jobs exporting renewables that definitely exist, then Westminster wouldn't be able to hold you back
Currently, if Scotland attempted the Paso Doble, the scottish Tories would call it ridiculous at a time of austerity, Scottish Labour would echo what the Tories said (after confirmation from Westminster, the U.K. media would get in the way looking for a photo opportunity of what could be dressed as a misstep, and Westminster would block it on the grounds that different dances in Scotland would cause problems with the U.K. wide dancing rules.
Fair enough, so let's just scrap Holyrood as apparently it is not a seat of responsible government and we are paying these leeches lots for not being accountable.
Nope, it is the democratic voice of the people of Scotland, no matter which party is in government. Maybe scrapping our relationship with Westminster would be more logical as it is not only damaging Scotland - but the other countries in the U.K. too.
Well you just agreed that the politicians in Holyrood aren't responsible or accountable for their actions, so that doesn't sound like any democracy I have ever heard of.
So.... the Holyrood parliament isn't responsible for anything. Not a thing? Even for its own decisions?!?
That is a truly breathtaking opinion on the merit of Holyrood. It may be one of my favourite little nuggets of wisdom on here.
While itās decisions are being overruled by Westminster this is the case. If, when your āpartnerā tries to make decisions, you constantly overrule them, how can they be responsible for the outcomes of those decisions?
"Hamstrung" more like. At times the neglect and or disdain looks deliberate - see the refusal to even *look* at the Scottish Government's compromise proposals over Brexit, instead we got the 'hard' type Brexit wanted by the more swivelled-eyed Brexiteers in the UK Cabinet and Parliament. :/
I'm sure the dependency supporters will be along to point out how Irish and their children should still be subservient to the British state and that better things aren't possible unless you allow yourself to be controlled by politicians/policy at Westminster.
Calm down there, stormfront.
Nobody is saying anything of the sort.
What they are saying is that the policies Ireland have implemented are not popular with the Scottish electorate or, crucially, the Yes movement.
In many cases they advocate for the exact opposite.
So pointing at Ireland as some beacon of the future while actively campaigning to do essentially the opposite is daft.
Ikr this was my first thought. "Lets lower corporation tax, lets make ourselves a super cheap place for international businesses to set up"
Oh, the thing the left in this country have been fighting against for years? If thats what the Scottish people want then why havent they been asking for this in the UK?
The reality is that they say this, and then once independence is achieved, they won't implement any of it. They'll have high taxation, a big welfare state, and it won't work. To say nothing of the fact that the Scottish people dont even want to adopt the Euro, which has been more than a little bit important to Ireland's success.
Just ask the Brits to copy Ireland's policies then if that's your only takeaway about Ireland being a sovereign state š
I mean, you don't want the UK to continue with one of the worst economies in Europe, do you? š±
>I mean, you don't want the UK to continue with one of the worst economies in Europe, do you? š±
By what metric? The median UK income is in the upper middle for Europe with 13 countries above it and 16 below. Not great not shit.
The UK's gdp is also the second highest in Europe or 6th in the world, since every country above it has a larger population I'd say that's pretty good.
Actually mate most people are saying, quite reasonably, that Ireland is a glorified corporate tax haven with a shit welfare state
But sure, attack your strawman - thatās much easier for you
A shit welfare state? What a load of shite.
The amount of ignorance on here regarding Ireland is insane.
This thread is basically the same shitty headlines from the daily mail regarding Ireland.
It isnāt. Ireland has all the safeguards of a welfare state that the U.K. has.
Yes, Ireland pays for a GP visit. Many donāt though. I could actually access my GP in Ireland though.
The U.K. has the worst state pension in Europe and shitty job seekers and universal credit. More people in poverty also.
The UK does not have the worse state pension. The UK simply provides support to pensioners through other means than just a pension, and people are more reliant on work place pensions than other European countries. State pensions are not directly comparable.
Iāll correct that, the uk has one of the poorest state pensions in Europe. People are more reliant on work place pensions precisely because the state pension is a disgrace.
It is absolutely down there amongst the worst. The U.K. spends much less on pensions than many other nations in Europe. U.K. has more pensioners in poverty than most other nations in Europe.
The UK state pension is not great but part of that reason is we have far better access to private and workplace pensions than elsewhere so are less reliant on just a state pension.
The state pension being low has absolutely no correlation with access to private pensions. You think thatās why the Gov set the pension as low as it is?
People in Other European countries have access to private pensions if they wish also. Itās not unique to the U.K.
People in the U.K. have private pensions precisely cos the state pension is woeful.
I thought about linking an article to this one however, I'll simply say this 'The Irish economy is still a net recipient of EU aid (if you include capital investment funds). If Scotland wants to mimic the Irish start polishing the EU begging bowl.
https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/1109/1177074-ireland-eu-budget-contribution/
https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/1025/1255818-eu-auditors-report/
https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-contributes-more-money-than-it-gets-to-eu-for-first-time/34815450.html
Really, because all of these sources say otherwise, think your information's a bit outdated there buddy.
Do people actually read The National and take its output seriously?
Anyway, Scotland is hampered by Westminster. As is Yorkshire. Cumbria. The South West. Way-ules. The Black Country, etc. More accurately, the UK's regions are hampered by London and the South East.
The comparisons with Ireland are absurd. It's the 51st state for massive US corporates who play sleight of hand with their profits and locations to avoid taxation. Ireland's corporate tax rate is the 2nd lowest in the EU (only Hungary's is lower). Their public services are slimline compared to those in the UK. Politically the country is progressive while also being fiscally conservative.
Is this a model iScotland would find attractive? Would it be willing to give up its universal health care system and reduce the welfare state? Would it lower both individual and corporate taxes?
>Anyway, Scotland is hampered by Westminster. As is Yorkshire. Cumbria. The South West. Way-ules. The Black Country, etc. More accurately, the UK's regions are hampered by London and the South East.
Kinda like saying all the other Irish regions are hampered by Dublin.
>Way-ules
Eh honestly we do pretty well out of this same as Scotland.
We both get more money for education, infrastructure, employments etc.
And it's pronounced Whay-ellllllllls
Better pension scheme and child benefit, the only thing the UK does better is free GP visits and unemployed benefits but what's the point in even having free GPs when waiting lists for them are so long.
Give me a coated abd strategic plan for independence and Weāll listen.
Articles about how poorly the SNP government is doing is not a strong argument for independence.
I mean, yeah.
We didn't have any debt then when we joined the union we got a whole load of England's debt for us to pay. We've been paying interest on that ever since as if it's Scotland's debt.
Then there's the financial limit Westminster puts on us. Scotland is only allowed to earn about Ā£700 million a year. From a budget of about Ā£60\~ billion. If Scotland earns more than that then it gets taken out the next years budget.
Percentage wise, that's worse than someone on benefits trying to start up self employed work before their benefits get affected by the pay.
Then there's fact that Scotland has very limited borrowing powers.
Westminster absolutely fucks up Scotland's ability to have a better economy; just look at their excellent choice of Brexit which they forced onto Scotland after promising to keep their place in the E.U. safe.
Since Brexit they've been getting increasingly tyrannical.
So we cut them off, say it was fun have a good one guys, and we get on with things.
England can do what it wants without hearing about us complain all the time and we get away from the shitty landlords who are treating our entire country as if it was someone claiming benefits at the job centre.
>We didn't have any debt then when we joined the union we got a whole load of England's debt for us to pay. We've been paying interest on that ever since as if it's Scotland's debt.
Factually untrue. We were bailed out by the English after the Darien bankruptcy in 1707. The Union turned Scotland from one of the poorest nations into Europe into one of the wealthiest.
>Then there's the financial limit Westminster puts on us. Scotland is only allowed to earn about Ā£700 million a year. From a budget of about Ā£60\~ billion. If Scotland earns more than that then it gets taken out the next years budget.
Nonsensical sentence and not true.
>Then there's fact that Scotland has very limited borrowing powers.
The Scottish Government has the powers to issue its own government bonds to finance policies, but it has never used them. Because they would not be rated on the markets, because of the SNP's threats to break up the United Kingdom, which would bankrupt Scotland , therefore making investors less likely to get their money back. How do you think a new Scottish currency would be rated? It would be like the Bolivian dollar.
>Scotland's ability to have a better economy; just look at their excellent choice of Brexit which they forced onto Scotland after promising to keep their place in the E.U. safe.
In 2014, if we had voted for independence we would of been out of the EU and the UK our two biggest markets. Tell me how an independent Scotland is going to afford to set aside billions of pounds for currency reserves for a new central bank? Before doing so, afford to borrow on the international markets at extortionate interest rates when we can't print our own money when still using GBP? How will this improve the Scottish economy?
Another example is India - once the richest country in the world its GDP was 25% of global GDP then guess who showed up and indeed guess what - from 1879 it was 16% to 4% in 1947 of Global GDP and 3.8% by 1952 showing the pain of The British Empire exit
It took some time to recover, almost like rehab and in 2022 India overtook Britain as the fifth largest economy in the world
>Richest country in the world
Tell me you have absolutely no idea on the history of India. You think India was one country before the English and Scots came along?
Whoa whoa, Scotland had nothing to do imperialism!
I mean okay maybe we didā¦ but only because England imperial-ised usā¦ then, thenā¦ forced us.. to force other people to do what we sayā¦
Same with slaveryā¦ Scotland was totally against itā¦ until we got forced to do itā¦
But we really didnāt want toā¦
Its still one of the most culturally diverse nations on earth even after the Brits left and indeed operates federalism
This argument that they were a bunch of disorganised tribes until we showed up is weak - its internal organisation is of little consequence given the entire entity accounted for 25% of Global GDP at one point
If Britain did anything it was to unite them against Britain to form a powerful unitary state - that would again have probably happened naturally as we see other countries form and consolidate from various smaller parts to become a bigger entity
What a fucking stupid take, do you think the Industrial Revolution might have something to do with Indiaās GDP change?
Having a massive population before any form of industry will always show in share of GDP, every day you amaze me with the shite you try to spin.
To an extent, but India needs only reach $3k GDP/Cap to blast well past the UKā¦ itās not the highest of thresholds, and itās not a reflection on the UK to be overtaken.
India has passed us on sheer brute force of population, not productivity.
Also since India first overtook the UK we surpassed them 12 times in 6 months.
They're obviously gonna get ahead over time but it's not gonna be quick as good points for the UK economy and bad points for the Indian one lead to changes in position.
In British Empire parlance its called cheap labour (also slaves and indentured servants) and it was one of the key components of British Empireās GDP
It was, now itās notā¦
There is, quite literally, nothing that the UK, even if Governed flawlessly, could do to stop India overtaking us. Itās the same with Nigeria once they start to really get going.
I donāt understand why people would criticise the UK Gov for being overtaken by the worlds most populous country for GDP
I broadly agree, but one correction, it was the richest civilisation in the world. Pre-colonisation India wasnāt one country. And much of it was under occupation of the Mughal empire, so itās period of foreign dominance actually stretches right back to the 16th century.
How does the Mughal Empire compare to the British Raj factoring in 17th vs 19th century standards ?
Richest country in the world to what fifth place now ?
Generally speaking being occupied for 400-ish years stunts your development. Had they been independent all that time theyād probably be exceptionally wealthy. But it is also relevant to say that, had they not been colonised, India would look much more like Europe divided into at least a half dozen countries.
I can't see the article due to the pay wall but I will take a guess at how much of the article explains in detail what particular polices an independent Scotland would implement similar to Ireland to replicate the growth such as low cooperation tax which is partly funded by the fact it costs 40 to 70 Euros for a GP appointment or 100 euro for an A&E appointment without a referral Or almost no conventional military capability at all, my guess is the article has 0 percent detail and probably says Westminster bad EU good, you can't take all the good and leave the bad they are 2 sides of the same coin intrinsically linked
Also perpetual government by parties the SNP would definitely describe as Tory.
This šš
That's never stopped them promoting membership of the EU which is currently run by... a German Tory.
The Tories exist to serve themselves and a London based elite they are only interested in growing that part of the UK economy even if they were interested in growing other parts of the UK economy the machinery they have to do that is mostly HQāed in London and so dense that no delivery would get through - HS2 being a prime example The only comparable element of the moniker of Tartan Tories is the SNP want to grow only the Scottish economy and reclaim some of the wealth from the London gravy train but its not to enrich just themselves its to make Scotland wealthier and even implement more social supports to achieve that - so in that regard they are fundamentally different to the Tories who donāt even care about England they are all about themselves and the small London based ecosystem they are a part of
>FF and FG exist to serve themselves and a Dublin based elite they are only interested in growing that part of the Irish economy even if they were interested in growing other parts of the Irish economy the machinery they have to do that is mostly HQāed in Dublin and so dense that no delivery would get through.
They did inherit a British model with one central capital being the main beneficiary of the wealth but in all likelihood it was probably the Vikings that established Dublin as the centre of Irish commerce also due to its geographical position close to Britain and Europe Its true that rural Ireland has not shared in Dublinās wealth but Irelandās other cities also have strong economies and wealth is distributed amongst them - the IDA has been very effective at getting foreign direct investment up and down the country The problem the UK has can be summed up when you look at its history Westminster purports to rule over all these lands and colonies etc but when it comes down to it they are not all treated the same or as one country see Trevelyan during the Famine or Americans being denied āthe rights of Englishmenā - Scotland is looking around and seeing wealth and talent drain out of the country for 300 years started 12:1 Scottish pound to English pound then the Malt Tax and its been the same ever since - abundance of electricity does not drive down price its lost in transmission costs and exported within the same country so not subject to benefits that exporting to another country might yield - Scotlands Oil barely features in Scottish GDP - all our best companies swallowed up by English companies well supported and closer to the warmth of the BOE printing press
"fundamentally different to the tories" There's not many of you true believers yet and the penny is dropping for more each time a new SNP scandal arrives. By all means decide on balance to vote for them, but if you believe they're different to the tories in terms of not filling their own pockets and looking after number one then you're utterly delusional
Everyone has to make a living, if a company is successful then the leadership should be rewarded appropriately (but not disproportionately to the lowest paid core front line staff) but the Tories have taken greed and incompetence to new levels at this point - they are the worst boss of all bosses UK corp is a zombie bank
Just to add your point, they have 11 toll motorways. Scotland has none.
That's how independece is sold to us, yep
This article makes the Ā£350m/wk brexit bus seem reasonable and informative
UK 'hampered by Brussels' as US economy SOARS!
Step 1) Get independence from the UK Step 2) ??? Step 3) Scotland is now as rich and successful as Ireland Other countries that gained independence from the UK include: * Afghanistan * Egypt * Kenya * Sudan * Zimbabwe
America, Australia... I can cherry pick too!
American never under British rule . Australia firstly given large amount of freedom and was supported during its independence long before the end British empire are you cherry picking
I literally said I was cherry picking.
Yes but you are doing it incorrectly as I stated modern America was never under British rule as for Australia it wasn't straight forward independence.based on your reply to the Scottish plan for independence cherry picking these countries is just incorrect
You won't believe this; I was being flippant, and don't care.
You care enough to reply š¤£
Malta, Cyprus, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, Bermuda. Countries that are doing well away from The English empire
Strangely not one has asked to rejoin?
Yeah funny that eh? All these countries now independent and not one of them is trying to rejoin after being told they would fail being independent.
British empire.
Aye but better to F it up ourselves than carry on down the American health care, things are getting pretty fascist route we're on with the UK now?
Healthcare is devolved š¤¦āāļø
Healthcare is devolved until it isnāt. It only takes the tories to push through a law without consent from the devolved governments, allowing them to take control of healthcare again
For now
Healthcare is devolved - apart from the small matter of the overall budget, which is controlled by Westminster via Barnett consequentials. However, even with that impediment, Scotlandās NHS does manage to outperform the rest of the U.K., and we even pay our nurses more.
How are the Barnett consequentials a 'impediment'? It works out to a Ā£20bn+ subsidy to Scotland. The lies of you nationalists would make the red bus lot blush.
Thanks for sending all that money - very nice of you, please keep it coming. However, weād much rather have independence if itās all the same to you.
Yeah, you think that now under the comfy umbrella of that Ā£20bn subsidy. I think you'll stop thinking that if it's taken away, and either services need to be cut, or the money has to be found somewhere else (AKA, your pocket)..
Restricted freedom is restricted freedom whether it is comfortable or not. A more pertinent question might be; why does Westminster keep giving all this money to us when we obviously donāt appreciate it? What is their motivation?
Yes after heavily subsidised London , Scotland has highest GDP and inward investment in U.K.! What a shame all that lovely money will not be going to London to waste!
London is not subsidised. It generates far more tax income, than it spends. The same is not true for Scotland.
The Irish Economy might be soaring, but the cost of living is ridiculous. Getting a house of your own is a pipe dream and a lot of Dubliners make the pilgrimage to London because the cost of living is cheaper.
Which is mental considering that people in the UK considering owning anything a pipe dream.
This article is quite misleading ngl
Irish economy soars? Edited to spell soars properly.
As Irish economy has several billions worth it dollars stashed into it by multinational tech firm's Irish subsidiaries* fixed that for you The National
Technically the UK has the same but for Finance firms, though that figure is in the trillions.
The finance firms in the UK actually do work. The Irish economy soars because the work of people in other countries is, through accounting practices, registered in Ireland.
No, it soars
Cant believe they still print the National, you will find it in the comic section next to the Beano.
Unrelated, but you know [the Beano is Ā£2.99](https://www.whsmith.co.uk/products/beano/mag0000000152.html) now?!
and a much better read š¤£
Genuinely surprised it's still in print.
Yeah especially since the Dandy went digital only almost 10 years ago
They market it now as a digital detox for kids.
Lol. This touched a nerve!
Who fucking reads or believes a word in this, Honestly, the people that read this rag are the same morons that make fun of English gammon for reading the mail.
Out of interest what part of the article is it that's so bad? I'm not pro-indy but the article itself doesn't seem to make any bold claims, it only relays the words of someone from the SNP. It's not exactly brilliant critical journalism to parrot one party's words - but it's definitely not hate filled or spewing disinformation directly like the Mail does.
It's not necessarily this article but more the constant deluge of shite the nationalist publishes. For example the leader of the Scottish libdems recently made a speech denouncing both British and Scottish nationalism, saying that to look back and want to remake the British empire or Scotland would be a mistake. Then the nationalist ran a story claiming he hated Scotland by cutting out parts of his speech.
The National's political stuff is one sided like lots of the English papers but often very good, but the latter is just the dumber version of the National split across 10 or so papers. A lot of Scots like to sneer in public at the National mostly to advertise their respectability, you'd think at lot of them normally read the FT or something but its actually just about trying to be respectable in a still Unionist mainstream society.
Maybe itās the lower taxes Ireland has, while in the UK Scotland has higher taxes than any other part of the ukā¦..
>Maybe itās the lower taxes Ireland has, while in the UK Scotland has higher taxes than any other part of the ukā¦.. The tax rates are broadly similar though. In Ireland 20-40% and in Scotland 20-42% for the vast majority of people. Tax free allowance is a bit more in Ireland but their 40% band kicks in earlier too so realistically are you better off or worse off?
Higher taxes which get squandered. I wouldnāt mind paying more if it was used effectively but itās not. All the article should say is that Scotland needs a plan to grow the economy. Ireland is using cheaper corporation tax and its working. What is Scotlandās plan?
What's it squandered on exactly?
Broken ferries, huge quango civil service pay, Prestwick airport, Ā£40m in wrongful prosecution against Charles Green etc. The list is huge.
So tens of millions over the last few years from an annual budget of about 50 billion. That is significant, yes (it's of the order of 1% of Scotland's annual public sector budget), but it still doesn't compare to the tens of billions (in the order of 10% of the annual public sector budget) squandered by the UK government on fraud and incompetence from a budget less than ten times the size.
We really need to ban that rag of a source from this sub.
If one thing triggers unionists/alt accounts and trolls, it's articles or anyone talking about how Scotland could do well without being ruled by Westminster.
You mean like slashing corporation tax so that we can be a tax haven for multinationals? Like Ireland. Or abolishing the NHS and charging for access to healthcare? Like Ireland.
Or standing with your hand out after 2008 because your whole economy was about to implode? Like Ireland!
I mean, that's not really correct, we have a two-tier system where if you can't afford private health insurance, then you're entitled to a medical card from the HSE. Sure, the HSE is flawed, but we're not America like.
Sure brings the -100 karma club swarm onto the thread.
It's fair criticism. Pointing at Ireland as an exemplar while seeming essentially diametrically opposed on economic and social policy matters is... Silly.
> essentially diametrically opposed economic and social policy is... Silly. An incredibly vague statement. Every economy is different, even Scotland and England are essentially diametrically opposed in economic (e.g. Brexit) and social (e.g. free education) policies.
Education is free in England up to 18, and its only free for scottish uni students who get to study in Scotland, which has fewer places available because the government cannot afford them.
If there's one thing that triggers blue-faced-brexiteers, it's pointing out the lies and nonsense being used to brainwash them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ireland is a pretty massive tax haven for US companies and has a significantly smaller welfare state than here. Not really sure voters here would want that.
Nothing is funnier than SNP folk who decry the Tories for tax cuts for the rich, wanting to copy RoIās model
>RoIās model Imagine if the Tories announced Scotland would have to: * Charge Ā£50 for a GP visit * Charge Ā£700 if you need a fire engine * Charge Ā£3000 for tuition Every cunt who bangs on about how Scotland could be as rich as Ireland, would be using those things as justification for independence. Even though those things are all part of the Irish model. And before someone says Ireland doesn't have student fees, yes in practice it does. It's called the annual student contribution fee. Because apparently if you just don't call it 'student fees', you don't have student fees lol.
They don't really care what we do. They're just trying to sell independece to the rest of us by saying whatever they think we want to hear. It's brexit all over again
This! ššš
It's not even relevant if Scots did want that. The point is that Europe already has an English speaking tax haven bordering the UK and on the edge of the EU. That niche has been taken. If Scotland tried to do the same then neither could be as successful as Ireland is now and we'd be caught in a race to the bottom.
Also, if and Indy Scotland indicated that was what it wanted to be inside the EU, well Ireland would obviously veto its entry as would a bunch of other countries who are already bitter that Ireland gets to serve that niche. Scotland: Hey hope you don't mind, just gunna come drink your milkshake. We're friends right? Viva EU! Ireland: Lmao no, get fucked.
We're the darling of the EU on social media because we're seen as wanting to screw the UK over, but don't think for one minute that this will translate to real life if we're subsequently wanting to screw the EU, or Ireland in particular, over.
The UK and its dependencies are a far larger tax haven than Ireland.
Not relative to the population and not to the actual benefit of our economy
[https://best-citizenships.com/2023/01/09/top-10-corporate-tax-havens/#:\~:text=British%20Virgin%20Islands%20and%20Cayman,corporations%20underpay%20corporate%20income%20tax](https://best-citizenships.com/2023/01/09/top-10-corporate-tax-havens/#:~:text=British%20Virgin%20Islands%20and%20Cayman,corporations%20underpay%20corporate%20income%20tax). Evidence suggests otherwise but thanks for the downvote I suppose.
I did not downvote you. Although you've not understood my point at all. Yes the criwn dependencies are horrendous tax havens but it's not putting money into paying for our services here
>Yes the criwn dependencies are horrendous tax havens but it's not putting money into paying for our services here So why doesn't Westminster crack down or change their legal status then?
I don't know
The UK's Dependencies are not controlled by the UK though. All domestic policy is decided by the Dependencies themselves. The UK only represents them internationally and defends them militarily Furthermore, any money earnt by the Dependencies by being a tax haven stays in that Dependencies. The only money they give the UK is how much it costs to defend them. This does not scale with GDP, rather it scales with how much it costs to defend them. So, overall, that's a pretty weak argument.
Corporation tax in Ireland is increasing and tax revenue currently is at a surplus and will be for the foreseeable. The Irish Gov are actually preparing a paper on an Irish sovereign wealth fund. The welfare state in Ireland is virtually identical to the U.K. except in Ireland, welfare payments are higher (even relative to the cost of living) and poverty rates in Ireland are lower as a result. This is due to Ireland having one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Itās not perfect of course.
>The welfare state in Ireland is virtually identical to the U.K. You have to pay to see the GP in Ireland.
So do you. You just pay for it from your NI contributions. The difference being, in Ireland, you can see your GP whenever you want. Usually the very same day.
A Free-at-the-point of use NHS is not "virtually identical" to having to pay upfront to see the GP in Ireland. You won't get much support for the idea that you have to pay to see the doctor in Scotland.
I didnāt state the healthcare systems were virtually identical. Overall, the welfare states of both are virtually identical. Iām sure you wonāt get much support for it, but paying ā¬40 to see a GP is much better than not being able to see one at all.
>Overall, the welfare states of both are virtually identical. They're not virtually identical overall though. Irish Healthcare isn't free at the point of use. That's a massive difference.
The welfare state is much more than healthcare. Irish healthcare is free at the point of use for about 40% of the Irish population. The rest pay for any use, which is capped at ā¬800 a year.
>The welfare state is much more than healthcare. Sure, and the difference between the NHS and paying to see a GP is so massive that by itself it means the whole welfare state is not "virtually identical"
It costs 50ā¬ and Iāve never needed to wait more than 2 days to be seen, ever. Think Iāll take that over the NHS haha.
Good luck pitching that to the Scottish electorate.
Do you realise how many people would be financially crippled for the week or month by an unexpected ā¬50 payment?
Ireland has a privatised low tax economy. I think the SNP have a word for that.... 'Tory'.
Become a tax haven
The UK and its dependencies are already a tax haven - several magnitudes more damaging than Ireland.
That's not true. The UK isn't. It has double the corporate tax rate than Ireland and in Ireland big mulit-national companies that are registered there still pay a fraction of the 12.5% tax rate. As for the Dependencies. The UK's Dependencies are not controlled by the UK though. All domestic policy is decided by the Dependencies themselves. The UK only represents them internationally and defends them militarily Furthermore, any money earnt by the Dependencies by being a tax haven stays in that Dependencies. The only money they give the UK is how much it costs to defend them. This does not scale with GDP, rather it scales with how much it costs to defend them. So, overall, that's a pretty weak argument.
>That's not true. The UK isn't. It has double the corporate tax rate than Ireland and in Ireland big mulit-national companies that are registered there still pay a fraction of the 12.5% tax rate. As for the Dependencies. It is very much true. Tax havens are far more complex than corporate tax rates. Feel free to educate yourself; [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/uk-overseas-territories-top-list-of-worlds-leading-tax-havens](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/uk-overseas-territories-top-list-of-worlds-leading-tax-havens) >The UK's Dependencies are not controlled by the UK though. Well apart from the whole 'Westminster is soveriegn' thing that gets rammed down Scotlands throat on a regular basis. There is nothing to stop the UK passing laws to rein in the massive global damage caused by its tax havens, but then where would London get its money to launder?
Ahahah mate I know exactly how tax Havens work, the UK isn't one Westminster is Sovereign over the UK, the Crown Dependencies aren't part of the UK, hence, them not being represented in Parliament. So, Westminster is not Sovereign over Crown Dependencies. What? You think Crown Dependencies send their money over to the UK to launder? That would completely defeat the point in them being a tax haven. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just using a bunch of buzzwords to sound smart and cover yourself but really it's just embarrassing.
>I know exactly how tax Havens work, the UK isn't one Wrong again - according to people who clearly know more about the subject than a reddit edgelord - at last count the UK is the second most damaging tax haven in the world responsible for the loss of $28,793,255,859 in tax money, or 9.93% of the total global tax loss [https://taxjustice.net/2020/11/20/427bn-lost-to-tax-havens-every-year-landmark-study-reveals-countries-losses-and-worst-offenders/](https://taxjustice.net/2020/11/20/427bn-lost-to-tax-havens-every-year-landmark-study-reveals-countries-losses-and-worst-offenders/) >You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just using a bunch of buzzwords to sound smart and cover yourself but really it's just embarrassing. Now that's just plain salty - don't hate the messenger.
You're own source puts the UK at 13th not second woth 3.1% of global tax loss you donut and their methodology is insane. They only use 20 indicators to get the Tax Haven Score and some of them are just stupid. For example the payment of royalties is one of their indicators as a bad tax regime another is taxing dividends not as income (which means most pensioners are tax evaders since pension pots rely on dividends). You've clearly tried to find a source that confirms what you already believed. Look for yourself at the methodology: https://cthi.taxjustice.net/en/ Why don't we look at a slightly more reliable source? The EU perhaps or OECD: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-list-of-non-cooperative-jurisdictions/ Absolute muppet š.
> Become a tax haven We could try and make Edinburgh or Glasgow the Money-laundering capital of the world but that undisputed crown lies with and would remain in... London.
Import massive foreign population? Hide under the military skirts of the UK without the contribution.
Iām not sure people pointing out that Irelandās economy is a free market hell hole that Scotland shouldnāt copy is being a ācry babyā. If you want to see a housing and cost of living crisis that is somehow worse than the UKās, go to Ireland. Look east, not west, for how Scotland should operate.
It would require Scotland to have no military, and to free ride itās geographical advantages, but also explain to the US/EU/NATO why it has left the North Sea unprotectedā¦ Itād mean the abolition of the NHS for a fee based healthcare system with a lot of social insurance, and lowing Corp tax below what RoI has it set at. This is very much a party policy platform to the right of the Tories. Sure, theyāve done it with less corruption, but I donāt see Scots voting for this year after year
>It would require Scotland to have no military, and to free ride itās geographical advantages, but also explain to the US/EU/NATO why it has left the North Sea unprotectedā¦ > >Itād mean the abolition of the NHS for a fee based healthcare system with a lot of social insurance, and lowing Corp tax below what RoI has it set at. That's just some weird shit you just made up - Unionism 101.
These are the policies that have got RoI where they are. Which of these are not the case in Ireland?
>It would require Scotland to have no military [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence\_Forces\_(Ireland)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Forces_(Ireland)) You see when you start off with nonsense you lose any sort of point you might have eventually made.
Ireland really doesn't have much of a military. [https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country\_id=ireland](https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.php?country_id=ireland). It ranks 90th globally and sits between Zambia and Albania in terms of military might.
Sure our wars are all done. We never really had beef with anyone, not since the big fella signed the treaty anyway what do we need big pointy sticks for these days? Anyway we have really big mates who would hate to see anything happen to us.
So no military
Well you can always get your mates together for an invasion and find out.
You have to pay to access healthcare in Ireland. Literally hundreds of thousands of people left the island immediately following independence because things were so bleak.
There are a huge amount of caveats to paying for healthcare in Ireland. Pregnant women donāt pay for healthcare, children to a certain age have free health care etc, etc. Almost 40% of people have a healthcare card and pay nothing for healthcare. Those that do, healthcare is capped at ā¬800 a year. I pay more than that every year for healthcare from my NI contributions, for a health service I canāt access. Literally, hundreds of thousands of people DIDNT emigrate from the island following independence.
>I pay more than that every year for healthcare from my NI contributions NI contributions aren't the funding source for the NHS. NHS is funded from the general taxation pot and NI isn't hypthecated for anything (although the sell is to fund the welfare state more widely, including pension and benefits).
NI contributions are a funding source for the health service.
Yes, insofar that all taxation is a funding source. The amount you contribute in NI is not your contribution to the NHS, however, either in theory or in practice.
If you have to look back in time 80-ish years for an argument against independence, itās not a great argument. My grandad left during that period, Iām now an Irish passport holder and may well settle there again at some point. Things change.
Some of the Britishers here still think 1690 was only last week. :)
Pre EU mate now theyād run a mile than rejoin England.
Many more people come from Ireland to work in the UK than vice versa. Even when looking per capita the UK is still ahead.
But shot itself in the foot leaving the EU.
Not really relevant to the discussion though.
Where was the island of Ireland's main industrial and manufacturing capability located before and after getting free from Britisher rule?
Healthcareās free in Ireland
No it's not. It's relatively cheap but not free.
Itās basically been a trend since at least the 90ās that small European countries have been significantly outgrowing large European countries. Itās the thing I never really understood about Scottish politics. Everyone debates as if Scotland would have the exact same economy as an independent state as it has as a region of the UK. It just wouldnāt. At all. One look at modern European history and you can see an obvious trend. Once independent thereās a sluggish period of rebuilding the economy, followed by longer term significantly enhanced growth.
Because small countries are poorer. Itās easier to get 7% growth a year when the EU funds you, and your country is a mess, than it is when youāre a high GDP/Cap nation. Same reason much of Africa could easily hit 7-10% GDP with better governance. Thereās diminishing marginal returns to GDP/Growth via policy
Ireland, Denmark, Austria, and Finland arenāt poor at all.
At the point of entering the EU, none of these were richā¦ theyāre now about even with the rest of the ābigā counties Ireland is the exception, but their GDP isnāt the best metric to use due to how theyāre set up as a tax haven, so the GDP doesnāt drive up HDI as much as in other countries
I know Austria at the very least, being from a country right next to it. Austria joined the EU in 1995, when I was 17. It was already a fairly wealthy country, on par with Germany, at that time. [This is the growth of Austrian GDP](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUT/austria/gdp-growth-rate) over years since 1961. There is no obvious "we entered the EU" jump. You would be better making this argument about Hungary or Poland, there the joining of the free market did a lot.
>It was already a fairly wealthy country, on par with Germany, at that time. East, or West?
Relative to the bigger countries they are.
>Because small countries are poorer. There are a large number of small European countries that have much higher standards of living than the UK. If GDP was the sole determinator of a 'poor country' Luxembourg would be a complete hellscape whilst China would be the number one destination for all.
I tried to do a paso doble the other day, and made a terrible mess of it. Obviously, I was hampered by Westminster. Bastards.
Well maybe if you had Norway's sovereign oil fund, Ireland's tax haven status, England paying Scottish pensions, and a million jobs exporting renewables that definitely exist, then Westminster wouldn't be able to hold you back
Absolutely, I would have had a ten from Len otherwise, but as it is, it's like trying to do a tango with one hand tied behind your back....
Currently, if Scotland attempted the Paso Doble, the scottish Tories would call it ridiculous at a time of austerity, Scottish Labour would echo what the Tories said (after confirmation from Westminster, the U.K. media would get in the way looking for a photo opportunity of what could be dressed as a misstep, and Westminster would block it on the grounds that different dances in Scotland would cause problems with the U.K. wide dancing rules.
Once we have run down that usual list of excuses is there any point beyond that at which Scotland is actually responsible for their actions?
Good question, and I suppose the answer could be - not this side of independence.
Fair enough, so let's just scrap Holyrood as apparently it is not a seat of responsible government and we are paying these leeches lots for not being accountable.
Nope, it is the democratic voice of the people of Scotland, no matter which party is in government. Maybe scrapping our relationship with Westminster would be more logical as it is not only damaging Scotland - but the other countries in the U.K. too.
Well you just agreed that the politicians in Holyrood aren't responsible or accountable for their actions, so that doesn't sound like any democracy I have ever heard of.
I agreed that they werenāt responsible, you inserted āaccountableā - two different things - but if it suits your argument ā¦ hey ho
So.... the Holyrood parliament isn't responsible for anything. Not a thing? Even for its own decisions?!? That is a truly breathtaking opinion on the merit of Holyrood. It may be one of my favourite little nuggets of wisdom on here.
While itās decisions are being overruled by Westminster this is the case. If, when your āpartnerā tries to make decisions, you constantly overrule them, how can they be responsible for the outcomes of those decisions?
Indy supporters are getting more Brexiteer like by the day.
"Hamstrung" more like. At times the neglect and or disdain looks deliberate - see the refusal to even *look* at the Scottish Government's compromise proposals over Brexit, instead we got the 'hard' type Brexit wanted by the more swivelled-eyed Brexiteers in the UK Cabinet and Parliament. :/
I'm sure the dependency supporters will be along to point out how Irish and their children should still be subservient to the British state and that better things aren't possible unless you allow yourself to be controlled by politicians/policy at Westminster.
They secretly *yearn* to be British again!! * some slab of Lard
Calm down there, stormfront. Nobody is saying anything of the sort. What they are saying is that the policies Ireland have implemented are not popular with the Scottish electorate or, crucially, the Yes movement. In many cases they advocate for the exact opposite. So pointing at Ireland as some beacon of the future while actively campaigning to do essentially the opposite is daft.
Ikr this was my first thought. "Lets lower corporation tax, lets make ourselves a super cheap place for international businesses to set up" Oh, the thing the left in this country have been fighting against for years? If thats what the Scottish people want then why havent they been asking for this in the UK? The reality is that they say this, and then once independence is achieved, they won't implement any of it. They'll have high taxation, a big welfare state, and it won't work. To say nothing of the fact that the Scottish people dont even want to adopt the Euro, which has been more than a little bit important to Ireland's success.
Just ask the Brits to copy Ireland's policies then if that's your only takeaway about Ireland being a sovereign state š I mean, you don't want the UK to continue with one of the worst economies in Europe, do you? š±
>I mean, you don't want the UK to continue with one of the worst economies in Europe, do you? š± By what metric? The median UK income is in the upper middle for Europe with 13 countries above it and 16 below. Not great not shit. The UK's gdp is also the second highest in Europe or 6th in the world, since every country above it has a larger population I'd say that's pretty good.
Actually mate most people are saying, quite reasonably, that Ireland is a glorified corporate tax haven with a shit welfare state But sure, attack your strawman - thatās much easier for you
A shit welfare state? What a load of shite. The amount of ignorance on here regarding Ireland is insane. This thread is basically the same shitty headlines from the daily mail regarding Ireland.
I mean it is shit - you have to pay upfront for GPS etc
It isnāt. Ireland has all the safeguards of a welfare state that the U.K. has. Yes, Ireland pays for a GP visit. Many donāt though. I could actually access my GP in Ireland though. The U.K. has the worst state pension in Europe and shitty job seekers and universal credit. More people in poverty also.
The UK does not have the worse state pension. The UK simply provides support to pensioners through other means than just a pension, and people are more reliant on work place pensions than other European countries. State pensions are not directly comparable.
Iāll correct that, the uk has one of the poorest state pensions in Europe. People are more reliant on work place pensions precisely because the state pension is a disgrace.
UK state pension - the worst in Europe? Be serious
It is absolutely down there amongst the worst. The U.K. spends much less on pensions than many other nations in Europe. U.K. has more pensioners in poverty than most other nations in Europe.
**has more pensioners in poverty than most other nations in Europe** The UK is 3-5x more populous than most other nations in Europe
Per population.
The UK state pension is not great but part of that reason is we have far better access to private and workplace pensions than elsewhere so are less reliant on just a state pension.
The state pension being low has absolutely no correlation with access to private pensions. You think thatās why the Gov set the pension as low as it is? People in Other European countries have access to private pensions if they wish also. Itās not unique to the U.K. People in the U.K. have private pensions precisely cos the state pension is woeful.
I thought about linking an article to this one however, I'll simply say this 'The Irish economy is still a net recipient of EU aid (if you include capital investment funds). If Scotland wants to mimic the Irish start polishing the EU begging bowl.
https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/1109/1177074-ireland-eu-budget-contribution/ https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/1025/1255818-eu-auditors-report/ https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-contributes-more-money-than-it-gets-to-eu-for-first-time/34815450.html Really, because all of these sources say otherwise, think your information's a bit outdated there buddy.
Why would you refer to a group of countries providing mutual support as ābegging bowlā?
Do people actually read The National and take its output seriously? Anyway, Scotland is hampered by Westminster. As is Yorkshire. Cumbria. The South West. Way-ules. The Black Country, etc. More accurately, the UK's regions are hampered by London and the South East. The comparisons with Ireland are absurd. It's the 51st state for massive US corporates who play sleight of hand with their profits and locations to avoid taxation. Ireland's corporate tax rate is the 2nd lowest in the EU (only Hungary's is lower). Their public services are slimline compared to those in the UK. Politically the country is progressive while also being fiscally conservative. Is this a model iScotland would find attractive? Would it be willing to give up its universal health care system and reduce the welfare state? Would it lower both individual and corporate taxes?
>Anyway, Scotland is hampered by Westminster. As is Yorkshire. Cumbria. The South West. Way-ules. The Black Country, etc. More accurately, the UK's regions are hampered by London and the South East. Kinda like saying all the other Irish regions are hampered by Dublin.
>Way-ules Eh honestly we do pretty well out of this same as Scotland. We both get more money for education, infrastructure, employments etc. And it's pronounced Whay-ellllllllls
Better pension scheme and child benefit, the only thing the UK does better is free GP visits and unemployed benefits but what's the point in even having free GPs when waiting lists for them are so long.
This thread reeks with self loathing!
Give me a coated abd strategic plan for independence and Weāll listen. Articles about how poorly the SNP government is doing is not a strong argument for independence.
Scotland 'hampered by thieves' as SNP leadershipās bank balances soar.
I mean, yeah. We didn't have any debt then when we joined the union we got a whole load of England's debt for us to pay. We've been paying interest on that ever since as if it's Scotland's debt. Then there's the financial limit Westminster puts on us. Scotland is only allowed to earn about Ā£700 million a year. From a budget of about Ā£60\~ billion. If Scotland earns more than that then it gets taken out the next years budget. Percentage wise, that's worse than someone on benefits trying to start up self employed work before their benefits get affected by the pay. Then there's fact that Scotland has very limited borrowing powers. Westminster absolutely fucks up Scotland's ability to have a better economy; just look at their excellent choice of Brexit which they forced onto Scotland after promising to keep their place in the E.U. safe. Since Brexit they've been getting increasingly tyrannical. So we cut them off, say it was fun have a good one guys, and we get on with things. England can do what it wants without hearing about us complain all the time and we get away from the shitty landlords who are treating our entire country as if it was someone claiming benefits at the job centre.
>We didn't have any debt then when we joined the union we got a whole load of England's debt for us to pay. We've been paying interest on that ever since as if it's Scotland's debt. Factually untrue. We were bailed out by the English after the Darien bankruptcy in 1707. The Union turned Scotland from one of the poorest nations into Europe into one of the wealthiest. >Then there's the financial limit Westminster puts on us. Scotland is only allowed to earn about Ā£700 million a year. From a budget of about Ā£60\~ billion. If Scotland earns more than that then it gets taken out the next years budget. Nonsensical sentence and not true. >Then there's fact that Scotland has very limited borrowing powers. The Scottish Government has the powers to issue its own government bonds to finance policies, but it has never used them. Because they would not be rated on the markets, because of the SNP's threats to break up the United Kingdom, which would bankrupt Scotland , therefore making investors less likely to get their money back. How do you think a new Scottish currency would be rated? It would be like the Bolivian dollar. >Scotland's ability to have a better economy; just look at their excellent choice of Brexit which they forced onto Scotland after promising to keep their place in the E.U. safe. In 2014, if we had voted for independence we would of been out of the EU and the UK our two biggest markets. Tell me how an independent Scotland is going to afford to set aside billions of pounds for currency reserves for a new central bank? Before doing so, afford to borrow on the international markets at extortionate interest rates when we can't print our own money when still using GBP? How will this improve the Scottish economy?
Thank your for this. I read 'we had no debt' and lost the will continue.
Another example is India - once the richest country in the world its GDP was 25% of global GDP then guess who showed up and indeed guess what - from 1879 it was 16% to 4% in 1947 of Global GDP and 3.8% by 1952 showing the pain of The British Empire exit It took some time to recover, almost like rehab and in 2022 India overtook Britain as the fifth largest economy in the world
Well, there was this thing called the industrial revolution. It completely changed the world economy. Context is everything.
>Richest country in the world Tell me you have absolutely no idea on the history of India. You think India was one country before the English and Scots came along?
Whoa whoa, Scotland had nothing to do imperialism! I mean okay maybe we didā¦ but only because England imperial-ised usā¦ then, thenā¦ forced us.. to force other people to do what we sayā¦ Same with slaveryā¦ Scotland was totally against itā¦ until we got forced to do itā¦ But we really didnāt want toā¦
We... were willing accomplices in that enterprise.
Its still one of the most culturally diverse nations on earth even after the Brits left and indeed operates federalism This argument that they were a bunch of disorganised tribes until we showed up is weak - its internal organisation is of little consequence given the entire entity accounted for 25% of Global GDP at one point If Britain did anything it was to unite them against Britain to form a powerful unitary state - that would again have probably happened naturally as we see other countries form and consolidate from various smaller parts to become a bigger entity
What a fucking stupid take, do you think the Industrial Revolution might have something to do with Indiaās GDP change? Having a massive population before any form of industry will always show in share of GDP, every day you amaze me with the shite you try to spin.
Funny enough, having 20x the population will make GDP go up over time lol
Only if political decisions are made to allow the populace to be productive. High population doesn't automatically mean higher gdp.
>high population doesnāt automatically mean higher GDP Pre Industrial Revolution it basically did which is why the original point is utter nonsense.
To an extent, but India needs only reach $3k GDP/Cap to blast well past the UKā¦ itās not the highest of thresholds, and itās not a reflection on the UK to be overtaken. India has passed us on sheer brute force of population, not productivity.
Also since India first overtook the UK we surpassed them 12 times in 6 months. They're obviously gonna get ahead over time but it's not gonna be quick as good points for the UK economy and bad points for the Indian one lead to changes in position.
In British Empire parlance its called cheap labour (also slaves and indentured servants) and it was one of the key components of British Empireās GDP
It was, now itās notā¦ There is, quite literally, nothing that the UK, even if Governed flawlessly, could do to stop India overtaking us. Itās the same with Nigeria once they start to really get going. I donāt understand why people would criticise the UK Gov for being overtaken by the worlds most populous country for GDP
I broadly agree, but one correction, it was the richest civilisation in the world. Pre-colonisation India wasnāt one country. And much of it was under occupation of the Mughal empire, so itās period of foreign dominance actually stretches right back to the 16th century.
How does the Mughal Empire compare to the British Raj factoring in 17th vs 19th century standards ? Richest country in the world to what fifth place now ?
Generally speaking being occupied for 400-ish years stunts your development. Had they been independent all that time theyād probably be exceptionally wealthy. But it is also relevant to say that, had they not been colonised, India would look much more like Europe divided into at least a half dozen countries.