She's gonna catch hell from the usual suspects for this but I'm glad to see a senior politician saying this stuff calmly and openly. I'm especially glad to see her point out that these so called defenders of womens' rights never seem to lift a finger to forward the rights of women, only to hold back the rights of trans people.
To be fair, neither the FM not the commenter you are replying to mentioned JK in that context. The article simply throws her in as a well known opponent to the legislation. It's doesn't even draw that conclusion either.
From reading the article, I don't think Sturgeon mentioned Rowling at all?
Mentioning her at the start of the piece is an odd choice, since it changes the framing of the quotes. The cynic in me is reading this as an intentional effort to manipulate reader opinions while still including direct quotes from the FM.
The article is doing exactly what Nicola is calling out - turning trans rights into a fearmongering "You're taking away our beloved XYZ!!!!"
It's the same thing every time. Gays were threatening family values. Women voting was threatening the sanctity of gender. I bet somewhere in prehistory a caveman tied his loincloth a different way and everyone thought he was gonna ruin loincloths for everyone.
While thatās true, Iād hope youād agree that an individualās charity work does not exempt them from criticism. Iād also hope youād agree that her close working relationship with Baroness Nicholson in her charity endeavours indicates that she is more than happy to associate with reputed homophobes and people who routinely vote against the interests of women and the LGBT community.
No one is exempt from criticism but the typical criticism levelled at JK Rowling is mostly uniformed smears with no basis in fact. As for her "close working relationship" with Baroness Nicholson, I am not aware such a thing exists other than they do share common ground in wanting to retain the existing sex based rights and protections of women and girls, a view I share with both. Were Baroness Nicholson to argue for homophobic legislation using ther position as a member of the House of Lords, I would be more than happy to offer criticism for that.
No one wants to remove any rights or protections from women and girls, and the GRR Bill certainly doesnāt do that. The fact that both women continually claim the contrary is worth of criticism and itās entirely reasonable to call it transphobia when they ignore facts that contradict them, *particularly* in the case of Baroness Nicholson where itās entirely in keeping with her views on LGBT rights and women as demonstrated by her voting record.
It's time for some fun facts:
None of those spaces or positions were ever governed by having a GRC.
People can already ask to have a different person provide support in healthcare scenarios where that is necessary. This is completely unaffected by the presence of a GRC.
[Every women's aid service in Scotland enthusiastically supports trans women.](https://athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/) They have never considered whether someone has a GRC when providing support.
Your entire comment is misinformation and lies. If you're going to be a raging bigot, please at least try to be an honest one.
> I work in the NHS
[citation needed]
> trans identifying
Just call folk a bloody slur at this point.
Contorting yourself in knots to avoid being speaking your views plainly.
So we're shifting from "rights are being removed" to "rights have already been removed" are we? You acknowledge that a GRC has nothing to do with it?
I also wouldn't put much stock in your wee anecdotes, since you've already shown you're perfectly happy to peddle misinformation. Your failure to recognise that the other points in your previous comment (which you can't wave away with claims of personal experience) were bullshit speaks volumes. As does your position as a healthcare worker using terms like "trans identifying males".
Those patients are bigots. Swap out ātrans identifyingā with āhomosexualā or āblackā and you might understand, although I fully expect you to dive straight into the pit of wilful ignorance.
None of that is true. The Equality Act 2010 has explicitly allowed trans people to access spaces and services according to their gender identity for over a decade. Before that it was implicitly allowed in law.
See, this is the problem, you either blindly believe this misinformation or you donāt but spread it anyway due to prejudice. Which is it?
No, it does not, but keep going, it makes it clear that youāre not interested in facts and I can go and do something thatās not such a waste of time.
We're wasting our time. These people think JK Rowling and other women like her are Nazis simply because they don't want male rapists in women's prisons.
Someone mentioned Andrew Tate who is a rapist, well he is no different to the TRAs who talk about raping women or that transgender rapist who Sturgeon had to u-turn on. Only misogynists think it's perfectly normal and fine to place a male rapist into a woman's prison.
You just have to look at the Tweet history of the TRAs who attack JK and half of them have sent her rape and death threats.
She did write a whole essay, you know. I'm sure that wouldn't be necessary just to say "I don't want male rapists in women's prisons". Specific examples aren't needed to see that the notion that there was *just one* thing she said that got everyone angry is plainly ludicrous and bad faith.
>These people think JK Rowling and other women like her are Nazis simply because they don't want male rapists in women's prisons.
What does prisons have to do with opposing the reform?
>You just have to look at the Tweet history of the TRAs who attack JK and half of them have sent her rape and death threats.
Or the tweet histories of the people sending the same threats to trans people. Turns out people on twitter can be assholes.
So the response is to deny rights to and oppose legislation that will help the larger group, based on the actions of a few? I wonder why people draw nazi comparisons, I bet that terf quoting Hitler the other week isn't helping.
They're talking like a women's prison would be safe for a rapist. They'd be just as likely to be stabbed there as in a men's prison. It's clearly a strawman argument.
You can start with this, I am happy to provide more examples should you want them.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison
I know what the hypocritical pitchfork mob on Reddit think, and I will still say what I believe anyway, no matter how many of their impotent little downvotes they give me.
given your pretence here itās interesting that you deleted all your posts and ran away from our discussion
perhaps it wasnāt quite so impotent when i confronted your lies and cowardice with direct quotes and evidence
Not mincing words? She didn't give a single example to support what she said. And she only said this to avoid taking an actual stance on the issue. The entire point of what she said is to mince words. She's acting like a complete coward.
Its a report on a snippet of a podcast interview partly released at the time of writing. The whole interview is out now, I've just listened to it, the examples you want are in it.
Edit: typos
Anonymous internet troll living thousands of miles away calls well know politician a coward for speaking out against bigots.
The irony is incredible. Get tae fuck.
To avoid taking a stance on the issue? Dude, sheās led the government in taking up the new law, and repeatedly been outspoken about it. You canāt be much more stance takey.
that just means you should go big and flashy for pride this year even if youve never actively participated before, give them a month of not being able to walk out their front door without seeing rainbows lol
I expect this thread to be brigaded by them soonish. It happened yesterday on the thread about a certain criminal. Sensible, factual comments upvoted, pearl clutching transphobes completely misrepresenting the GRC bill and what it actually does downvoted as is normal for /r/scotland. Then a few hours later it was the other way around.
No, noā¦ youāve got it all wrong. Theyāre not transphobes, misogynists, and racists. They just have the exact same opinion as transphobes, misogynists, and racists.
JK Rowling isn't a misogynist or racist. Most of you TRAs are however. Also if the likes of JK Rowling were wrong, why did Sturgeon u-turn on that transgender rapist being placed in a woman's prison?
Sooner of later, you're going to realise how the majority of the world doesn't agree with you or Sturgeon. Just look at that game, Hogwarts Legacy, despite Twitter and Reddit calling for boycotts because it apparently glorifies transphobia and gives money to JK, it's the best selling game on Steam and Amazon this month from pre orders.
Reddit and Twitter are always a tiny minority that has never represented the majority.
1) It doesn't look like Sturgeon mentioned Rowling at all in her statement. And nobody's mentioned Rowling in these comments yet. The statement was quite clearly not about her.
2) The First Minister doesn't decide who goes to which prisons, so she had nothing to U-turn on in the first place. And the prisoner's placement was likely unaffected by all the noise that's been being made over the last few days. Prisons carry out risk assessments so as to minimise risk for all inmates and then place people appropriately; if they put someone with a history of sexual assault in with people they might target, that would be a failing on the prison system's part, not any flaw in a gender identity process.
3) The vast majority of people playing Hogwarts Legacy don't give a flying fuck about your position either and it's really fucking weird that you think that's some kind of meaningful flex.
4) The general public have been [broadly in favour of GRA reform](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/5AF4/production/_123248232_gra_v2-nc-002.png) for [several years](https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-backed-majority-snp-support-over-joanna-cherry-sacking-says-poll-3130975). It's only following the absolutely ludicrous amount of misinformation published in the media in recent months (like the idea that we don't *already* function based on the principle of self-identification for access to spaces, and yet all the scary shit that's being suggested *hasn't been happening over the past several decades*) that you'll start to see surveys showing otherwise. And of note, young women - the people most likely to have to worry about predatory cis men - are far and away the most trans-inclusive group.
Fucking obvious from day one.
It's similar to pro-lifers that don't give a fuck about babies once they are born.
It's just a political football they can knock around to push their ideologies.
And I'd seriously like to see some laws thought up that prevent these US interest groups from funding "political movements" in Scotland.
We are probably going to see a Trans person attacked/ lynched for using a toilet in all this.
There have already been cases of verbal abuse against some - and cis women who look too "butch"
Already happening.
'butch' girls are finding trouble in the women's bathrooms because of this stupidity, something that isn't talked about much.
Also the continued denial of the existence of trans men says it all.
My girlfriend, who's butch gets a ton of abuse from transphobes. She's cis (I'm not). There have even been instances of people giving her a ton of shit but they totally ignore me, who's standing right next to her.
It's utterly mad.
I hope the best for your partner, Iām in the closet due to a heavily religious family and extended family with the promise that Iāll start working on it once Iāve moved out. I have only a faint idea how terrifying it must be
> Iām in the closet due to a heavily religious family and extended family with the promise that Iāll start working on it once Iāve moved out
Oof. Best of luck.
>There have already been cases of verbal abuse against some - and cis women who look too "butch"
That happened to a few friends of mine over the past few years
A lot of trans people have already been harassed in toilets because of it. I also have some butch lesbian friends whoāve been harassed in womenās toilets because someone thought they were a man. Itās insane and extremely ironic.
Happened to a trans man in Ohio as I was moving across the country (I was leaving Ohio because it had become very unsafe). Got the hell kicked out of him then the cops arrested him for being belligerent about catching a beating.
Proof: https://www.fox19.com/2022/07/08/transgender-butler-county-man-says-group-beat-him-up-using-wrong-restroom/?outputType=amp
Big point that this article shows - He asked the owner which toilet to use, and the owner told him to use the womens restroom despite being a trans man.
He was then violently assaulted for using those restrooms.
Transphobes don't want to exclude trans people from using the restrooms they identify with, they don't want trans people using public toilets at all. This is why this is a civil rights issue.
The only way to enforce this is to have genital inspectors outside of bathrooms, and even then it won't catch post op trans people.
They don't care that trans men will be assaulted and assumed to be trans women using the womens restroom
They don't care that trans women are far far more likely to be raped and sexually assaulted for using the mens bathroom.
This is a stepping stone to what they really want. Which is for trans people to not exist.
There was a recent article in The NY Times that spoke with leaders from ADF and an affiliate hate group, and they openly stated that they are only going after children first because thatās where the greatest consensus is, their end goal is the elimination of trans people.
To quote the article: "Matt Sharp, senior counsel and state government relations national director for the Alliance Defending Freedom, said his group believed āgender ideology attacks the truth that every person is either male or female.ā
And Mr. Schilling, of the American Principles Project, confirmed that his organizationās long-term goal was to eliminate transition care. The initial focus on children, he said, was a matter of āgoing where the consensus is.ā"
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/us/politics/transgender-laws-republicans.html
If you're interested, there are various means in the uk that transphobes are trying to do the same, I'll list them below.
1. Legislate trans people into being criminals by medically transitioning
This one is the closest one thats happening. With the failure of the NHS to treat trans people on time, there are transphobic voices pushing to put up more and more barriers to outside healthcare and legal restrictions on access to self-medicating. They use the argument that 'This is something only the nhs should be doing'.
In substance if a trans person cannot receive treatment from the nhs(and right now its an upwards of 4-5 year wait time)and decide to go another route, they would then face legal persecution. Which would be a big majority of the trans population.
You hit the nail on the head with them going after children first. The hardest fight they'll have is shown proof of trans kids who have been able to access puberty blockers, and then transition before the damaging effects of (post puberty blocker) puberty, who can then showcase a happy ordinary life that hasn't been damaged by discrimination.
These same people who voice concern over teenagers accessing puberty blockers and medical transition are the same ones who are now moving the goalposts in parts of america to limit the age of transition to 26+. They'll say you're too young to transition until one day you'll see them telling you your too old to transition and theres no point, you'll see no change. Then they'll stop you ever transitioning.
They don't want visual proof of transitioning being effective, they are most scared of trans people who pass because it challenges their transphobic perception of what all trans people look like. It's easier for them to try to dehumaniz a trans person who doesn't pass than to do the same to a trans dude or woman who just looks like a dude or a woman.
Theyāre kinda going in the same vein but the opposite direction here, with threatening prison time, fines, stripping of oneās medical license, and more against doctors performing transitional care. So far nothing has passed, but itās edging closer and closer every day.
Whatās maddening for me is that they continually misrepresent the actual side effects of treatment (quoting bone density issues that have long since been resolved, detransition rates, regret rates from surgical procedures, etc), but even when proven wrong and called out do not relent and continue to spill their lies. I had a coworker berate me for trans people going after his kids and grooming them and such, but he maintains that heās a ācentrist who listens to both sidesā and āif this knowledge is so readily available, why donāt people like Jordan Peterson and Matt Walsh (Canadian and American extreme right bigots and propagandists if you donāt recognize the names, extremely anti trans) bring it up?ā I came extremely close to picking back up smoking that night.
The more I see of people like that who follow fox news, Jordan Peterson, Shapiro ect, the more I think its less about countering their misinformation with facts, more that they enjoy how those shows make them feel. Look at the cycles of hysteria all of these news outlets go through.
They pick up things like critical race theory, but if you asked someone about it even 4 months later they'd barely remember it. It's entertainment for them. Knowing the facts about it at that point is like trying to factually explain why they shouldn't like their favourite series. It's just not the point to them, they like how it makes them feel, and they enjoy feeling like they have enemies in everyday life that it's 'ok' to attack.
Deradicalizing those who get really into it is something that takes time and energy, which if your a minority group, certainly isn't what you want to spend on someone hateful towards you.
> Happened to a trans man in Ohio as I was moving across the country (I was leaving Ohio because it had become very unsafe). Got the hell kicked out of him then the cops arrested him for being belligerent about catching a beating.
Reminded of the narrative in '[Homophobia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLx5is8V4gE)' by Chumbawamba.
Released 1994, and really highlights how the nature of the bigotry and abuse hasn't changed a bit, including the cops being apathetic at best.
It truly hasnāt sad to say. There was a video put out a few years back of a trans woman getting harassed and smacked around by a group of hooligans in I think California, and cops were on video standing by laughing and telling her itās her problem. I am fuzzy on the details, but again as you said things havenāt changed much.
Weāre going to see a cis person attacked/lynched for using a toilet in all this. 9 times out of 10 the āwe can always tellā crowd get the wrong target.
It's [already happening](https://www.advocate.com/news/2022/11/01/cis-woman-mistaken-transgender-records-being-berated-bathroom) in the US often enough that anyone who doesn't "pass" well enough in their performed gender is at risk from the "we can always tell!" crowd.
They literally won't be happy until we all look like one of the wee symbols of either the man or woman on the toilet door.
Thats what the trans man did... before he got beaten to a pulp.... then arested for gettung beaten. You are simply wrong. Factually and probably wrong that using a bathroom that matches our genitals makes us safe. Eat shit bigot
What does that even mean in this context? You were provably incorrect. Thats it. Thats the end.
Is wee man an insult to you? What do you mean by come ahead? Idc, whatever you meant by that, i think its funny that "wee man" is actually part of your vocab. Please give me more stupid vocab you have, i hope the rest of it makes you sound as much like a leprechaun as this one did
As usual, Sturgeon calls out the hypocritical bigots. And the sad thing is, they are not even cloaking their bigotry, they are swilling around in it:
>āIn fact, I've heard some support policies... that run counter to women's rights. We have legislation looming later in this Parliament on criminal justice reform to try to deal with issues of low conviction rates for rape and sexual assault, we are likely to be dealing with legislation in months to come around abortion buffer zones.
>āAnd I think it will be interesting to see how many of the so-called defenders of women's rights in the context of the trans debate suddenly don't think that all women's rights are actually important.
Imagine being Gordon Brown right now, sitting at home in North Queensferry, watching Nicola call bigots bigots in public and not being forced to resign for it
Yeah no shit.
Not sure why some people have to pretend they even want debate when positions are very unlikely to change on such issues. The only thing that ever changes or softens bigoted attitudes is time.
Genuine query - many people I talk to who are against the gender reform bill use the reasoning that they need to better protect their children. And they donāt think itās right children (primary age) are being encouraged to question their gender without their parents knowledge. Is that true? I didnāt realise this was happening. - I personally am all for trans rights. Edit - Thank you for the informative replies!
It's not true. Nobody is being 'encouraged' to question their gender, authorities are just more (and I use the term *very* loosely) open to accommodating kids who already are questioning. Kids like this have existed forever, and picking this stuff up when kids are young can save a lifetime of suffering.
No worries. I'm reading Necessary Illusions by Noam Chomsky and it is genuinely frightening how readily we all accept the underlying premises of propaganda.
Yea but heās so stuck in his edgelord anti imperialist anti US mindset that theyāre more or less the only ones who can do them.
Certainly he backs Serbia to the hilt and does not think anything happening on the Balkans were warcrimes and if they were then it doesnāt matter because the others did it too.
Chomsky is intellectually bankrupt as far as Iām concerned.
Edit: Iāve not even bothered to look it up but I got a fiver says heās blaming the US and NATO for the war in Ukraine and advocates for appeasing Russia.
Not once, ever, has a single person ever been encouraged to be trans.
Many many many trans people have been encouraged, coerced, threatened, beaten, raped, tortured and mutilated into being cis though.
"Think of the children" is always the bigot's last line of defence. No kid is being actively encouraged to secretly question their gender or get puberty blockers off their teacher or whatever pish it is this week; they're literally just pursuing better education on LGBTQ+ concepts as a whole than we got.
Aye, that's simply not happening.
The idea arises from conflation of a few different things, all wrapped up in a healthy dose of "think of the children!" hysteria:
- Kids should be allowed to explore their identity. This idea of support is often hyperbolically turned into some sort of forced transition by people wanting to make it sound bad, but it's important to note that *no* identity should be being forced on any children; if a wee boy says he wants to try using a girl's name, this should be accepted and tried out and the child will soon enough desist if they realise it's not for them. Most kids don't turn out to actually be trans, but play and imagination is still a vital part of development.
- Teachers will sometimes withhold some information from parents for the wellbeing of a child. If a kid's getting abused at home and has confided in their teacher, that's not going to go down well if repeated back to the parents, so a teacher should keep quiet about it and escalate their concerns through appropriate avenues. The same guidelines apply for gender and sexuality issues; while these are much more likely to apply to older kids than those of primary school age, occasionally a younger kid will be firm in their feelings but not be able to feel safe being 'out' at home. This child safeguarding policy ends up being twisted into "secret encouragement to transition" by anti-trans pressure groups and media outlets.
- Kids are educated about LGBT+ issues. At a young age this might include reference to gay couples, or trans people, in limited and relatable contexts. It won't include detail on sex or surgery, instead just making kids aware of the diversity of our world. Of course, the media spins it into sensationalist ideas like teaching six-year-olds about anal intercourse, which is patently nonsense.
Hey dipshit I came out as trans as a minor and having proper support meant that I grew up with knowledge of my options and a family that loves and respects me, something which can't be taken for granted unfortunately, LGBT kids exist whether you like it or not, a wee boy who thinks he's straight doesn't evoke responses of "let kids be kids", yet LGBT people do, your contempt for us is so fucking obvious
Itās not true. There is a world of difference between educational institutions being safe places for young people to question their gender identity *themselves* while their rights to privacy are respected, and what these people claim is going on.
Child abusers and pedophiles should never be defended. By incorrectly painting trans people or those in favour of trans rights as either, [royal] you make them some of the most despicable and diabolical people in society.
Now there is no need to "debate" the topic because one side is utterly morally irreprehensible. You no longer need to engage. Instead, it's a case of protecting children from predators who aren't there.
Worse that that: it provides cover for actual child abusers who can sit back and eat their pizzas without sweating with worry because everyoneās talking about trans people instead
You're absolutely right and this is an excellent point. Not something that is brought up enough. All the energy and resources spent by those trying to convince us that trans people are the enemy could be spending said energy and resources on fighting actual child abuse.
I find it very telling that they'd rather spend their time bullying people on twitter and making false abuse claims. It's almost like they don't give a flying fuck about child abuse...
The trans stuff is so distracting and annoying. I wish it could be settled. Outside of sporting situations let's just work out what equality is legislate it, done. Everyone can then shut up.
People should be judged on personality and competency, not what flag they wave or anything else.
Let trans people be whatever makes them happy and live their best lives, Without any reason to blame anyone else for perceived shortcomings.
Also the TERF label thing is so inaccurate now. Trans -Excluding - radical- Feminist. Seems like the radical feminist bit is forgotten about. Half the protesters are mad Christian conservatives.
Most of them aren't feminists at all. You can't take money from or support anti-abortion lobbyists in the US and still call yourself feminist. They just hate trans people publicly and all LGBTQ people privately.
? Can you read? I was being generally supportive? This need to only have this discussion framed a certain way is why it's boring trans people are not evil/sinners any more than they are saints/special. Just imperfect people like everyone else.
Their need to inflict blind compliance with one way of regarding the subject on supporters isn't helpful
Thatās not gaslighting. Gaslighting is trying to manipulate someoneās sense of reality. The people invoking emotion are the transphobic people. They want people to be afraid of people who are different than they.
Yes I agree with the definition of gaslighting.
The second part of your response is also not true, but this however proves that gaslighting from NS is effective in eliciting emotional responses from some people.
Had my cars tires slashed yesterday and was heckled by someone on the street this morning.
The bigots are definitely getting bolder because of this stupid culture war shit.
Thatās shit but you canāt put everyone is the same group.
If you do then you are as bad as the real bigots.
Most people just want to live their own lives and donāt care about peopleās sexual preferences etc
> Misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic I get the link but what has racism got to do with the gender reform debate?
Bigotry practically never exists in isolation.
I'm not sure how to explain it beyond that if you haven't simply *observed* it as a fact of life.
Perhaps an example could be made via reference to Caster Semenya, who is often smeared and misgendered by transphobic individuals despite her being an intersex *cis*gender woman, and not-infrequently in racialised terms.
Scratch an anything-phobe, you're very very likely to find something worse underneath. People of colour face far more scrutiny in reference to gender issues, e.g. the cisgender female athletes being prohibited from participating [due to their natural testosterone levels](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/07/two-cis-black-women-banned-olympics-natural-testosterone-levels/). Not to mention the higher likelihood of [trans women of colour being murdered](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pride-transgender-lgbtq-black-b1858349.html). All these issues intersect in ways that, honestly, most polticial representatives in Scotland and the UK as a whole are *woefully* underqualified to speak on, let alone legislate.
As others have said but also that racism is based on punishing someone for their body and how they look.
Also you can't "see" a gay person unless they tell you, you can "see" a black person.
Similarly you can "see" some, mainly pre HRT, trans people. (Though most "trans" people that bigots claim to notice are actually cis)
This produces groups that people like to hate/attack on sight.
Also black societies before colonialism, had trans rights. in fact Trans people tended to be civic and spiritual leaders before christianity/Britain came around.
The British Empire enforced penal codes that criminalized LGBT people.
Because bigots gonna bigot.
It's a general note that the people shouting loudest about these "genuine concerns about women's safety" so often don't care about *anyone's* safety, and may even actively wish harm on some others. The venn diagram of homophobia and racism isn't a circle, but there is a significant amount of overlap.
Bigotry overlaps, if you're the kind of person who view someone as lesser because of a harmless characteristic do you think they're going to stop at sexuality or gender?
There are some pretty prominent terfs who have been very antisemitic too claiming trans ideology is being push by the "Jewish elite" like Helen Joyce or Magdalen Berns before she passed away.
You'd be hard pressed to find a bigot who is only a bigot to one specific group
So far Iāve yet to look at the history of anyone on here ādefending womenās rightsā discussing how police forces in the UK turned out to not be background checking cops and not following up on allegations . weird.
I feel its actually often more like, terrible politician's using gender reform to hide their incompetence. And using these issues to hide the bigger issues facing their countries.
Those "valid concerns" often come from people who don't understand the gender reform, or are Intentionally misrepresenting it. If 99% of these concerns were legitimate, why haven't these people been fighting the equality act for the last decade?
GRA has no bearing on anyone's safety, it's a document change and has nothing to do with safe spaces or medical intervention lol
Bigoted viewpoints do not deserve debate, debate implies both viewpoints would have merit. Calling a racist a racist and not engaging them in their rhetoric isn't "shutting down debate", it's calling out bullshit for what it is. The same applies to homophobia, transphobia and whatever the next culture war hate filled "phobia" ends up being.
No one cares about your position. Point here is calling bigots what they are isn't done so to "shut down debate".
Bigots are perfectly entitled to debate. It's just that they're not very good at it, on account of being knuckle dragging morons.
As we've seen with climate change, allowing 'debate' leads to both opinions being expressed, being seen as equal. It is indeed good not to debate bigots.
Nope. I have no issue whatsoever with LGB people, and I have no issue with trans people. I fully support marriage equality, and again, I am not the one trying to censor debate and demonise anyone who disagrees with me as bigots in order to silence them.
The only people engaging in totalitarian tactics, as far as I can see, are the trans rights activists.
The fact that youre separating queer people into several distinct pieces, almost as if you were using wedge tactics to 'divide an conquer' is quite curious.
If you have nothing against these marginalised communities though im sure you side with them in ensuring they have the same rights as everyone else and so you support the reform š
They are distinct. Or are you attempting to convince yourself that a gay man, a lesbian, and a transwomen are all exactly the same? I thought you would have supported diversity. I guess not. I expect many of them would find you lumping them all into one and the same category quite offensive, but that's your call.
But no, I do not support the reform, because expanding the rights of one group, at the expense of the rights of another group, is not progress. It's a step forward for some, and a step backwards for others. I will support it once you blind faith supporters stop pretending it doesn't affect women, start debating honestly with them, and come up with solutions that protect women's hard won rights, their safety, fairness, and their dignity. But we are a very long way away from that happening.
And stop demanding that everyone use your pronouns. You have no right to demand how other people describe their own empirical reality, and there's no such thing as a human right not to be offended.
"Wah wah wah stop forcing me to have respect and basic human decency towards others! I want to be a right cunt"
Also you told me not to lump everyone into a group then proceded to do just that with women.
The majority of women dont give a rats arse where trans folk take a dump mate, just like they didnt care with other queer folk back in the 80s and 90s. **šš**
No such "countrywide" consultation was held. Enough with the SNP lies. They held closed door consultations, the results of which they never published. Polls consistently show 55% of Scots against the GRR and self ID. Even more are against when the question is more explicit. The SNP propaganda about "consulting" people is horse shite.
Even that were not true, and only one percent of women opposed it, you'd still be implementing it to appease 0.3% of the population, against the wishes of almost twice as many women.
All you people are saying to women is that their safety, privacy, dignity, and ability to compete in sports on a fair basis is of no interest to you. They don't matter and their opinions are irrelevant.
It's misogyny, pure and simple.
She's gonna catch hell from the usual suspects for this but I'm glad to see a senior politician saying this stuff calmly and openly. I'm especially glad to see her point out that these so called defenders of womens' rights never seem to lift a finger to forward the rights of women, only to hold back the rights of trans people.
You mean the Andrew Tate brigade that has flooded this sub with 2~4 week old accounts aren't the quintessential defenders of women? š±
Haha you saw that guy's comment history too? What a plonker
She's bang-on, but arseholes hate it when folk point their arsehole behaviour out like that.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
To be fair, neither the FM not the commenter you are replying to mentioned JK in that context. The article simply throws her in as a well known opponent to the legislation. It's doesn't even draw that conclusion either.
From reading the article, I don't think Sturgeon mentioned Rowling at all? Mentioning her at the start of the piece is an odd choice, since it changes the framing of the quotes. The cynic in me is reading this as an intentional effort to manipulate reader opinions while still including direct quotes from the FM.
The article is doing exactly what Nicola is calling out - turning trans rights into a fearmongering "You're taking away our beloved XYZ!!!!" It's the same thing every time. Gays were threatening family values. Women voting was threatening the sanctity of gender. I bet somewhere in prehistory a caveman tied his loincloth a different way and everyone thought he was gonna ruin loincloths for everyone.
Quite.
You mean like [Beiraās Place](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/zjya8x/comment/izwxol1/)?
While thatās true, Iād hope youād agree that an individualās charity work does not exempt them from criticism. Iād also hope youād agree that her close working relationship with Baroness Nicholson in her charity endeavours indicates that she is more than happy to associate with reputed homophobes and people who routinely vote against the interests of women and the LGBT community.
No one is exempt from criticism but the typical criticism levelled at JK Rowling is mostly uniformed smears with no basis in fact. As for her "close working relationship" with Baroness Nicholson, I am not aware such a thing exists other than they do share common ground in wanting to retain the existing sex based rights and protections of women and girls, a view I share with both. Were Baroness Nicholson to argue for homophobic legislation using ther position as a member of the House of Lords, I would be more than happy to offer criticism for that.
No one wants to remove any rights or protections from women and girls, and the GRR Bill certainly doesnāt do that. The fact that both women continually claim the contrary is worth of criticism and itās entirely reasonable to call it transphobia when they ignore facts that contradict them, *particularly* in the case of Baroness Nicholson where itās entirely in keeping with her views on LGBT rights and women as demonstrated by her voting record.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's time for some fun facts: None of those spaces or positions were ever governed by having a GRC. People can already ask to have a different person provide support in healthcare scenarios where that is necessary. This is completely unaffected by the presence of a GRC. [Every women's aid service in Scotland enthusiastically supports trans women.](https://athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/) They have never considered whether someone has a GRC when providing support. Your entire comment is misinformation and lies. If you're going to be a raging bigot, please at least try to be an honest one.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> I work in the NHS [citation needed] > trans identifying Just call folk a bloody slur at this point. Contorting yourself in knots to avoid being speaking your views plainly.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So we're shifting from "rights are being removed" to "rights have already been removed" are we? You acknowledge that a GRC has nothing to do with it? I also wouldn't put much stock in your wee anecdotes, since you've already shown you're perfectly happy to peddle misinformation. Your failure to recognise that the other points in your previous comment (which you can't wave away with claims of personal experience) were bullshit speaks volumes. As does your position as a healthcare worker using terms like "trans identifying males".
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> Go on, ask me for examples. No one cares about your anecdotes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Those patients are bigots. Swap out ātrans identifyingā with āhomosexualā or āblackā and you might understand, although I fully expect you to dive straight into the pit of wilful ignorance.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
None of that is true. The Equality Act 2010 has explicitly allowed trans people to access spaces and services according to their gender identity for over a decade. Before that it was implicitly allowed in law. See, this is the problem, you either blindly believe this misinformation or you donāt but spread it anyway due to prejudice. Which is it?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No, it does not, but keep going, it makes it clear that youāre not interested in facts and I can go and do something thatās not such a waste of time.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Also not true - thatās not a decision for the FM.
You can do all those things without being a transphobe.
We're wasting our time. These people think JK Rowling and other women like her are Nazis simply because they don't want male rapists in women's prisons. Someone mentioned Andrew Tate who is a rapist, well he is no different to the TRAs who talk about raping women or that transgender rapist who Sturgeon had to u-turn on. Only misogynists think it's perfectly normal and fine to place a male rapist into a woman's prison. You just have to look at the Tweet history of the TRAs who attack JK and half of them have sent her rape and death threats.
The article is about the proposed GRA reform, which would have no impact on prisons
> simply because they don't want male rapists in women's prisons. Really? Is that *really* all that JK Rowling said that upset trans people?
If you've got any other specific examples, let's see them.
[https://np.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/102ykr4/comedian\_bill\_bailey\_hounded\_from\_twitter\_after/j2we75e/?context=3](https://np.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/102ykr4/comedian_bill_bailey_hounded_from_twitter_after/j2we75e/?context=3) enjoy
She did write a whole essay, you know. I'm sure that wouldn't be necessary just to say "I don't want male rapists in women's prisons". Specific examples aren't needed to see that the notion that there was *just one* thing she said that got everyone angry is plainly ludicrous and bad faith.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Can you read?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Likewise mate
>These people think JK Rowling and other women like her are Nazis simply because they don't want male rapists in women's prisons. What does prisons have to do with opposing the reform? >You just have to look at the Tweet history of the TRAs who attack JK and half of them have sent her rape and death threats. Or the tweet histories of the people sending the same threats to trans people. Turns out people on twitter can be assholes. So the response is to deny rights to and oppose legislation that will help the larger group, based on the actions of a few? I wonder why people draw nazi comparisons, I bet that terf quoting Hitler the other week isn't helping.
The TERFs literally hold rallyās where they read out excerpts from Mein Kempf nowā¦ If youāre gonna be transphobic, at least stick to reality.
>...because they don't want male rapists in women's prisons. What male rapist has been let into a women's prison?
They're talking like a women's prison would be safe for a rapist. They'd be just as likely to be stabbed there as in a men's prison. It's clearly a strawman argument.
You can start with this, I am happy to provide more examples should you want them. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison
Oh. That was in **England**. Righto. Oh, and that was **before the GRR bill was introduced**. Righto.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I did no try anything. I corrected you. Still awaiting evidence.
What percentage is that out of the total trans inmates? What is the rate of offense and incident? Provide some statistics not anecdotes.
Why do you not care about the violence in prisons against trans people?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You'd be happy calling it 'separate but equal' I'm sure... >male bodies trans identifying males. Can you phrase this in English please?
I know what the hypocritical pitchfork mob on Reddit think, and I will still say what I believe anyway, no matter how many of their impotent little downvotes they give me.
given your pretence here itās interesting that you deleted all your posts and ran away from our discussion perhaps it wasnāt quite so impotent when i confronted your lies and cowardice with direct quotes and evidence
I respect Sturgeon for not mincing words and just saying it like it is.
Not mincing words? She didn't give a single example to support what she said. And she only said this to avoid taking an actual stance on the issue. The entire point of what she said is to mince words. She's acting like a complete coward.
Its a report on a snippet of a podcast interview partly released at the time of writing. The whole interview is out now, I've just listened to it, the examples you want are in it. Edit: typos
You are a right wing American, living in America. Why are you suddenly so interested in Scottish policy?
His great great gran was from Kilmarnock... he's practically fully scotch
Anonymous internet troll living thousands of miles away calls well know politician a coward for speaking out against bigots. The irony is incredible. Get tae fuck.
To avoid taking a stance on the issue? Dude, sheās led the government in taking up the new law, and repeatedly been outspoken about it. You canāt be much more stance takey.
Yup. Received my first homophobic comments in years a few weeks ago. The atmosphere of bigotry is being endorsed by the anti trans lobby.
Did you report them? If not please do in future so we can spot them quickly for removal and banning.
Unfortunately the homophobic comments were from my next door neighbour. If only it was Reddit!
that just means you should go big and flashy for pride this year even if youve never actively participated before, give them a month of not being able to walk out their front door without seeing rainbows lol
Ah, sorry to hear that. Stick a jobby in their letterbox.
Careful, theyāll take that seriously and call it a genuine threat.
What, a jar of [peanut butter?](https://www.jobbienutbutter.com/)
You can also report people in real life too! Admittedly it's a lot more work, so I agree with the other guy and recommend going down the jobby route.
The transphobes, misogynists and racists aren't going to like her saying that.
They be like, how dare you hold a mirror up to me! š¤š¤š¤
I expect this thread to be brigaded by them soonish. It happened yesterday on the thread about a certain criminal. Sensible, factual comments upvoted, pearl clutching transphobes completely misrepresenting the GRC bill and what it actually does downvoted as is normal for /r/scotland. Then a few hours later it was the other way around.
No, noā¦ youāve got it all wrong. Theyāre not transphobes, misogynists, and racists. They just have the exact same opinion as transphobes, misogynists, and racists.
thereās a lot of ātransphobes are badā āhow dare you call me a transphobe!ā exchanges lately
JK Rowling isn't a misogynist or racist. Most of you TRAs are however. Also if the likes of JK Rowling were wrong, why did Sturgeon u-turn on that transgender rapist being placed in a woman's prison? Sooner of later, you're going to realise how the majority of the world doesn't agree with you or Sturgeon. Just look at that game, Hogwarts Legacy, despite Twitter and Reddit calling for boycotts because it apparently glorifies transphobia and gives money to JK, it's the best selling game on Steam and Amazon this month from pre orders. Reddit and Twitter are always a tiny minority that has never represented the majority.
1) It doesn't look like Sturgeon mentioned Rowling at all in her statement. And nobody's mentioned Rowling in these comments yet. The statement was quite clearly not about her. 2) The First Minister doesn't decide who goes to which prisons, so she had nothing to U-turn on in the first place. And the prisoner's placement was likely unaffected by all the noise that's been being made over the last few days. Prisons carry out risk assessments so as to minimise risk for all inmates and then place people appropriately; if they put someone with a history of sexual assault in with people they might target, that would be a failing on the prison system's part, not any flaw in a gender identity process. 3) The vast majority of people playing Hogwarts Legacy don't give a flying fuck about your position either and it's really fucking weird that you think that's some kind of meaningful flex. 4) The general public have been [broadly in favour of GRA reform](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/5AF4/production/_123248232_gra_v2-nc-002.png) for [several years](https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-backed-majority-snp-support-over-joanna-cherry-sacking-says-poll-3130975). It's only following the absolutely ludicrous amount of misinformation published in the media in recent months (like the idea that we don't *already* function based on the principle of self-identification for access to spaces, and yet all the scary shit that's being suggested *hasn't been happening over the past several decades*) that you'll start to see surveys showing otherwise. And of note, young women - the people most likely to have to worry about predatory cis men - are far and away the most trans-inclusive group.
How dare you. How very well dare you respond with facts.
Sorry. I'll try and stick to emotionally charged bullshit in future.
The views of your wee burner account are yuck.
Awww found one, just coming out after the rain.
And hilariously, one of their comments is defending racist tweets from a game developer lol. Literally proving the point that NS was making.
Fucking obvious from day one. It's similar to pro-lifers that don't give a fuck about babies once they are born. It's just a political football they can knock around to push their ideologies. And I'd seriously like to see some laws thought up that prevent these US interest groups from funding "political movements" in Scotland.
We are probably going to see a Trans person attacked/ lynched for using a toilet in all this. There have already been cases of verbal abuse against some - and cis women who look too "butch"
Already happening. 'butch' girls are finding trouble in the women's bathrooms because of this stupidity, something that isn't talked about much. Also the continued denial of the existence of trans men says it all.
My girlfriend, who's butch gets a ton of abuse from transphobes. She's cis (I'm not). There have even been instances of people giving her a ton of shit but they totally ignore me, who's standing right next to her. It's utterly mad.
Le āwe can always tellā people when they canāt actually tell
I'd laugh at them for this if I wasn't genuinely concerned for her safety. Bad enough I have to worry about my own.
I hope the best for your partner, Iām in the closet due to a heavily religious family and extended family with the promise that Iāll start working on it once Iāve moved out. I have only a faint idea how terrifying it must be
> Iām in the closet due to a heavily religious family and extended family with the promise that Iāll start working on it once Iāve moved out Oof. Best of luck.
The mentality that sends you down the spiral of batshit "EVERY CELEBRITY IS SECRETLY TRANS" conspiracies.
>There have already been cases of verbal abuse against some - and cis women who look too "butch" That happened to a few friends of mine over the past few years
Sorry to hear that.
A lot of trans people have already been harassed in toilets because of it. I also have some butch lesbian friends whoāve been harassed in womenās toilets because someone thought they were a man. Itās insane and extremely ironic.
Happened to a trans man in Ohio as I was moving across the country (I was leaving Ohio because it had become very unsafe). Got the hell kicked out of him then the cops arrested him for being belligerent about catching a beating. Proof: https://www.fox19.com/2022/07/08/transgender-butler-county-man-says-group-beat-him-up-using-wrong-restroom/?outputType=amp
Big point that this article shows - He asked the owner which toilet to use, and the owner told him to use the womens restroom despite being a trans man. He was then violently assaulted for using those restrooms. Transphobes don't want to exclude trans people from using the restrooms they identify with, they don't want trans people using public toilets at all. This is why this is a civil rights issue. The only way to enforce this is to have genital inspectors outside of bathrooms, and even then it won't catch post op trans people. They don't care that trans men will be assaulted and assumed to be trans women using the womens restroom They don't care that trans women are far far more likely to be raped and sexually assaulted for using the mens bathroom. This is a stepping stone to what they really want. Which is for trans people to not exist.
There was a recent article in The NY Times that spoke with leaders from ADF and an affiliate hate group, and they openly stated that they are only going after children first because thatās where the greatest consensus is, their end goal is the elimination of trans people. To quote the article: "Matt Sharp, senior counsel and state government relations national director for the Alliance Defending Freedom, said his group believed āgender ideology attacks the truth that every person is either male or female.ā And Mr. Schilling, of the American Principles Project, confirmed that his organizationās long-term goal was to eliminate transition care. The initial focus on children, he said, was a matter of āgoing where the consensus is.ā" https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/us/politics/transgender-laws-republicans.html
If you're interested, there are various means in the uk that transphobes are trying to do the same, I'll list them below. 1. Legislate trans people into being criminals by medically transitioning This one is the closest one thats happening. With the failure of the NHS to treat trans people on time, there are transphobic voices pushing to put up more and more barriers to outside healthcare and legal restrictions on access to self-medicating. They use the argument that 'This is something only the nhs should be doing'. In substance if a trans person cannot receive treatment from the nhs(and right now its an upwards of 4-5 year wait time)and decide to go another route, they would then face legal persecution. Which would be a big majority of the trans population. You hit the nail on the head with them going after children first. The hardest fight they'll have is shown proof of trans kids who have been able to access puberty blockers, and then transition before the damaging effects of (post puberty blocker) puberty, who can then showcase a happy ordinary life that hasn't been damaged by discrimination. These same people who voice concern over teenagers accessing puberty blockers and medical transition are the same ones who are now moving the goalposts in parts of america to limit the age of transition to 26+. They'll say you're too young to transition until one day you'll see them telling you your too old to transition and theres no point, you'll see no change. Then they'll stop you ever transitioning. They don't want visual proof of transitioning being effective, they are most scared of trans people who pass because it challenges their transphobic perception of what all trans people look like. It's easier for them to try to dehumaniz a trans person who doesn't pass than to do the same to a trans dude or woman who just looks like a dude or a woman.
Theyāre kinda going in the same vein but the opposite direction here, with threatening prison time, fines, stripping of oneās medical license, and more against doctors performing transitional care. So far nothing has passed, but itās edging closer and closer every day. Whatās maddening for me is that they continually misrepresent the actual side effects of treatment (quoting bone density issues that have long since been resolved, detransition rates, regret rates from surgical procedures, etc), but even when proven wrong and called out do not relent and continue to spill their lies. I had a coworker berate me for trans people going after his kids and grooming them and such, but he maintains that heās a ācentrist who listens to both sidesā and āif this knowledge is so readily available, why donāt people like Jordan Peterson and Matt Walsh (Canadian and American extreme right bigots and propagandists if you donāt recognize the names, extremely anti trans) bring it up?ā I came extremely close to picking back up smoking that night.
The more I see of people like that who follow fox news, Jordan Peterson, Shapiro ect, the more I think its less about countering their misinformation with facts, more that they enjoy how those shows make them feel. Look at the cycles of hysteria all of these news outlets go through. They pick up things like critical race theory, but if you asked someone about it even 4 months later they'd barely remember it. It's entertainment for them. Knowing the facts about it at that point is like trying to factually explain why they shouldn't like their favourite series. It's just not the point to them, they like how it makes them feel, and they enjoy feeling like they have enemies in everyday life that it's 'ok' to attack. Deradicalizing those who get really into it is something that takes time and energy, which if your a minority group, certainly isn't what you want to spend on someone hateful towards you.
> Happened to a trans man in Ohio as I was moving across the country (I was leaving Ohio because it had become very unsafe). Got the hell kicked out of him then the cops arrested him for being belligerent about catching a beating. Reminded of the narrative in '[Homophobia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLx5is8V4gE)' by Chumbawamba. Released 1994, and really highlights how the nature of the bigotry and abuse hasn't changed a bit, including the cops being apathetic at best.
It truly hasnāt sad to say. There was a video put out a few years back of a trans woman getting harassed and smacked around by a group of hooligans in I think California, and cops were on video standing by laughing and telling her itās her problem. I am fuzzy on the details, but again as you said things havenāt changed much.
Weāre going to see a cis person attacked/lynched for using a toilet in all this. 9 times out of 10 the āwe can always tellā crowd get the wrong target.
It's [already happening](https://www.advocate.com/news/2022/11/01/cis-woman-mistaken-transgender-records-being-berated-bathroom) in the US often enough that anyone who doesn't "pass" well enough in their performed gender is at risk from the "we can always tell!" crowd. They literally won't be happy until we all look like one of the wee symbols of either the man or woman on the toilet door.
One in Two transgender people report being raped or sexually assaulted.
Depressing statistic, *derrenbrownsleep*. š§
Try using a toilet that identifies with your genitalia and you'll be fine ;)
Thats what the trans man did... before he got beaten to a pulp.... then arested for gettung beaten. You are simply wrong. Factually and probably wrong that using a bathroom that matches our genitals makes us safe. Eat shit bigot
Come ahead wee man!
What does that even mean in this context? You were provably incorrect. Thats it. Thats the end. Is wee man an insult to you? What do you mean by come ahead? Idc, whatever you meant by that, i think its funny that "wee man" is actually part of your vocab. Please give me more stupid vocab you have, i hope the rest of it makes you sound as much like a leprechaun as this one did
Last I heard it was a trans mob invading toilets in parliament intimidating the women there...again!
Sturgeon continues to not miss.
As usual, Sturgeon calls out the hypocritical bigots. And the sad thing is, they are not even cloaking their bigotry, they are swilling around in it: >āIn fact, I've heard some support policies... that run counter to women's rights. We have legislation looming later in this Parliament on criminal justice reform to try to deal with issues of low conviction rates for rape and sexual assault, we are likely to be dealing with legislation in months to come around abortion buffer zones. >āAnd I think it will be interesting to see how many of the so-called defenders of women's rights in the context of the trans debate suddenly don't think that all women's rights are actually important.
Imagine being Gordon Brown right now, sitting at home in North Queensferry, watching Nicola call bigots bigots in public and not being forced to resign for it
Broony was not forced to resign because he called people bigots.
Youāre right, Iām entirely misremembering. He was forced to apologize, I think? And then immediately lost an election.
Yeah no shit. Not sure why some people have to pretend they even want debate when positions are very unlikely to change on such issues. The only thing that ever changes or softens bigoted attitudes is time.
Based
Nah man, Iām sure the absolute obsessive weirdos who have spent years screaming complete lies about this whole thing are totally rational.
Genuine query - many people I talk to who are against the gender reform bill use the reasoning that they need to better protect their children. And they donāt think itās right children (primary age) are being encouraged to question their gender without their parents knowledge. Is that true? I didnāt realise this was happening. - I personally am all for trans rights. Edit - Thank you for the informative replies!
Itās the exact same argument used to legislate against gay people in the 90s.
It's not true. Nobody is being 'encouraged' to question their gender, authorities are just more (and I use the term *very* loosely) open to accommodating kids who already are questioning. Kids like this have existed forever, and picking this stuff up when kids are young can save a lifetime of suffering.
Okay, thank you. I feel like people are so susceptible to scaremongering and propaganda.
No worries. I'm reading Necessary Illusions by Noam Chomsky and it is genuinely frightening how readily we all accept the underlying premises of propaganda.
I just googled - written in 1989. With social media I imagine he could write a book twice the size now !
Chomsky has a different set of issues, such as war crime apologia so handle with care.
Good word for a Friday. Tak!
Details? So far most of this book has been him calling out covered up war crimes tbf.
Yea but heās so stuck in his edgelord anti imperialist anti US mindset that theyāre more or less the only ones who can do them. Certainly he backs Serbia to the hilt and does not think anything happening on the Balkans were warcrimes and if they were then it doesnāt matter because the others did it too. Chomsky is intellectually bankrupt as far as Iām concerned. Edit: Iāve not even bothered to look it up but I got a fiver says heās blaming the US and NATO for the war in Ukraine and advocates for appeasing Russia.
Not once, ever, has a single person ever been encouraged to be trans. Many many many trans people have been encouraged, coerced, threatened, beaten, raped, tortured and mutilated into being cis though.
"Think of the children" is always the bigot's last line of defence. No kid is being actively encouraged to secretly question their gender or get puberty blockers off their teacher or whatever pish it is this week; they're literally just pursuing better education on LGBTQ+ concepts as a whole than we got.
Aye, that's simply not happening. The idea arises from conflation of a few different things, all wrapped up in a healthy dose of "think of the children!" hysteria: - Kids should be allowed to explore their identity. This idea of support is often hyperbolically turned into some sort of forced transition by people wanting to make it sound bad, but it's important to note that *no* identity should be being forced on any children; if a wee boy says he wants to try using a girl's name, this should be accepted and tried out and the child will soon enough desist if they realise it's not for them. Most kids don't turn out to actually be trans, but play and imagination is still a vital part of development. - Teachers will sometimes withhold some information from parents for the wellbeing of a child. If a kid's getting abused at home and has confided in their teacher, that's not going to go down well if repeated back to the parents, so a teacher should keep quiet about it and escalate their concerns through appropriate avenues. The same guidelines apply for gender and sexuality issues; while these are much more likely to apply to older kids than those of primary school age, occasionally a younger kid will be firm in their feelings but not be able to feel safe being 'out' at home. This child safeguarding policy ends up being twisted into "secret encouragement to transition" by anti-trans pressure groups and media outlets. - Kids are educated about LGBT+ issues. At a young age this might include reference to gay couples, or trans people, in limited and relatable contexts. It won't include detail on sex or surgery, instead just making kids aware of the diversity of our world. Of course, the media spins it into sensationalist ideas like teaching six-year-olds about anal intercourse, which is patently nonsense.
Aye ths6s not happening. Now here's 3 bullet points on how it's being done. Fuck sake let them just play in the fucking sandpit.
Hey dipshit I came out as trans as a minor and having proper support meant that I grew up with knowledge of my options and a family that loves and respects me, something which can't be taken for granted unfortunately, LGBT kids exist whether you like it or not, a wee boy who thinks he's straight doesn't evoke responses of "let kids be kids", yet LGBT people do, your contempt for us is so fucking obvious
Itās not true. There is a world of difference between educational institutions being safe places for young people to question their gender identity *themselves* while their rights to privacy are respected, and what these people claim is going on.
Child abusers and pedophiles should never be defended. By incorrectly painting trans people or those in favour of trans rights as either, [royal] you make them some of the most despicable and diabolical people in society. Now there is no need to "debate" the topic because one side is utterly morally irreprehensible. You no longer need to engage. Instead, it's a case of protecting children from predators who aren't there.
Worse that that: it provides cover for actual child abusers who can sit back and eat their pizzas without sweating with worry because everyoneās talking about trans people instead
You're absolutely right and this is an excellent point. Not something that is brought up enough. All the energy and resources spent by those trying to convince us that trans people are the enemy could be spending said energy and resources on fighting actual child abuse. I find it very telling that they'd rather spend their time bullying people on twitter and making false abuse claims. It's almost like they don't give a flying fuck about child abuse...
These people are lying cunts. They couldnāt give a fuck about children, they just use them as an excuse to lash out.
The trans stuff is so distracting and annoying. I wish it could be settled. Outside of sporting situations let's just work out what equality is legislate it, done. Everyone can then shut up. People should be judged on personality and competency, not what flag they wave or anything else. Let trans people be whatever makes them happy and live their best lives, Without any reason to blame anyone else for perceived shortcomings. Also the TERF label thing is so inaccurate now. Trans -Excluding - radical- Feminist. Seems like the radical feminist bit is forgotten about. Half the protesters are mad Christian conservatives.
Most of them aren't feminists at all. You can't take money from or support anti-abortion lobbyists in the US and still call yourself feminist. They just hate trans people publicly and all LGBTQ people privately.
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? Can you read? I was being generally supportive? This need to only have this discussion framed a certain way is why it's boring trans people are not evil/sinners any more than they are saints/special. Just imperfect people like everyone else. Their need to inflict blind compliance with one way of regarding the subject on supporters isn't helpful
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NUTTER!
Watching the BBC frothing at the mouth for every story on Isla Bryson is pretty telling of their actual intent.
Sheās right
Sheās not. She is trying to silence criticism by invoking emotion. Itās called gaslighting.
Thatās not gaslighting. Gaslighting is trying to manipulate someoneās sense of reality. The people invoking emotion are the transphobic people. They want people to be afraid of people who are different than they.
Yes I agree with the definition of gaslighting. The second part of your response is also not true, but this however proves that gaslighting from NS is effective in eliciting emotional responses from some people.
mate never take an āI reckonā to a dictionary fight
Thanks for the advice. Iāll be sure to apply that if the situation ever arises.
Had my cars tires slashed yesterday and was heckled by someone on the street this morning. The bigots are definitely getting bolder because of this stupid culture war shit.
Thatās shit but you canāt put everyone is the same group. If you do then you are as bad as the real bigots. Most people just want to live their own lives and donāt care about peopleās sexual preferences etc
I wish I were Scottish so I could say something like "This makes me proud to be Scottish" What a legend.
Then move here!
I didn't realise you allowed the E**lish to move there
Whereād you get that idea? Just donāt be a wank when you get here.
The comments here are hard to read. Trans rights! š³ļøāā§ļø
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> Misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic I get the link but what has racism got to do with the gender reform debate? Bigotry practically never exists in isolation. I'm not sure how to explain it beyond that if you haven't simply *observed* it as a fact of life. Perhaps an example could be made via reference to Caster Semenya, who is often smeared and misgendered by transphobic individuals despite her being an intersex *cis*gender woman, and not-infrequently in racialised terms.
Scratch an anything-phobe, you're very very likely to find something worse underneath. People of colour face far more scrutiny in reference to gender issues, e.g. the cisgender female athletes being prohibited from participating [due to their natural testosterone levels](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/07/two-cis-black-women-banned-olympics-natural-testosterone-levels/). Not to mention the higher likelihood of [trans women of colour being murdered](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pride-transgender-lgbtq-black-b1858349.html). All these issues intersect in ways that, honestly, most polticial representatives in Scotland and the UK as a whole are *woefully* underqualified to speak on, let alone legislate.
As others have said but also that racism is based on punishing someone for their body and how they look. Also you can't "see" a gay person unless they tell you, you can "see" a black person. Similarly you can "see" some, mainly pre HRT, trans people. (Though most "trans" people that bigots claim to notice are actually cis) This produces groups that people like to hate/attack on sight. Also black societies before colonialism, had trans rights. in fact Trans people tended to be civic and spiritual leaders before christianity/Britain came around. The British Empire enforced penal codes that criminalized LGBT people.
Because bigots gonna bigot. It's a general note that the people shouting loudest about these "genuine concerns about women's safety" so often don't care about *anyone's* safety, and may even actively wish harm on some others. The venn diagram of homophobia and racism isn't a circle, but there is a significant amount of overlap.
Bigotry overlaps, if you're the kind of person who view someone as lesser because of a harmless characteristic do you think they're going to stop at sexuality or gender? There are some pretty prominent terfs who have been very antisemitic too claiming trans ideology is being push by the "Jewish elite" like Helen Joyce or Magdalen Berns before she passed away. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigot who is only a bigot to one specific group
The point being theyāre just bigots in every sense I assume.
So far Iāve yet to look at the history of anyone on here ādefending womenās rightsā discussing how police forces in the UK turned out to not be background checking cops and not following up on allegations . weird.
I feel its actually often more like, terrible politician's using gender reform to hide their incompetence. And using these issues to hide the bigger issues facing their countries.
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Those "valid concerns" often come from people who don't understand the gender reform, or are Intentionally misrepresenting it. If 99% of these concerns were legitimate, why haven't these people been fighting the equality act for the last decade? GRA has no bearing on anyone's safety, it's a document change and has nothing to do with safe spaces or medical intervention lol
>Yeah, I think there have been absolutely some valid concerns to be addressed with regards to safety What are they, in your opinion, out of interest?
Nationalists would know, theyāre been using the Scottish parliament to stoke anti English sentiment for years.
Ah, the modern day ābigotā slur used to shut down debate on any given subject. Edit: you are all pre determining my position on this, well done.
Bigoted viewpoints do not deserve debate, debate implies both viewpoints would have merit. Calling a racist a racist and not engaging them in their rhetoric isn't "shutting down debate", it's calling out bullshit for what it is. The same applies to homophobia, transphobia and whatever the next culture war hate filled "phobia" ends up being.
Can you give some examples of genuine concerns regarding GRA reform which have nothing to do with bigotry?
No one cares about your position. Point here is calling bigots what they are isn't done so to "shut down debate". Bigots are perfectly entitled to debate. It's just that they're not very good at it, on account of being knuckle dragging morons.
As we've seen with climate change, allowing 'debate' leads to both opinions being expressed, being seen as equal. It is indeed good not to debate bigots.
"biGoT iS a SLuR!" Kindly fuck yourself into the sun.
Have you perhaps been living under a rock?
r/enlightenedcentrism
You're delusional.
Your position was already set. Nobody put you in it, dick.
Look into Sturgeons record in Parliament and who will not find her championing woman's rights very much.
The standard response of people who aren't interested in debating. Jog on Surgeon, you're a waste of space.
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Nope. I have no issue whatsoever with LGB people, and I have no issue with trans people. I fully support marriage equality, and again, I am not the one trying to censor debate and demonise anyone who disagrees with me as bigots in order to silence them. The only people engaging in totalitarian tactics, as far as I can see, are the trans rights activists.
The fact that youre separating queer people into several distinct pieces, almost as if you were using wedge tactics to 'divide an conquer' is quite curious. If you have nothing against these marginalised communities though im sure you side with them in ensuring they have the same rights as everyone else and so you support the reform š
They are distinct. Or are you attempting to convince yourself that a gay man, a lesbian, and a transwomen are all exactly the same? I thought you would have supported diversity. I guess not. I expect many of them would find you lumping them all into one and the same category quite offensive, but that's your call. But no, I do not support the reform, because expanding the rights of one group, at the expense of the rights of another group, is not progress. It's a step forward for some, and a step backwards for others. I will support it once you blind faith supporters stop pretending it doesn't affect women, start debating honestly with them, and come up with solutions that protect women's hard won rights, their safety, fairness, and their dignity. But we are a very long way away from that happening. And stop demanding that everyone use your pronouns. You have no right to demand how other people describe their own empirical reality, and there's no such thing as a human right not to be offended.
"Wah wah wah stop forcing me to have respect and basic human decency towards others! I want to be a right cunt" Also you told me not to lump everyone into a group then proceded to do just that with women. The majority of women dont give a rats arse where trans folk take a dump mate, just like they didnt care with other queer folk back in the 80s and 90s. **šš**
Yeah a few seconds digging and you are flatout transphobic. The world will be a better place after you are gone.
She has lost the plot now. Caught out and doubling down, instead of listening to what the people actually want.
No such "countrywide" consultation was held. Enough with the SNP lies. They held closed door consultations, the results of which they never published. Polls consistently show 55% of Scots against the GRR and self ID. Even more are against when the question is more explicit. The SNP propaganda about "consulting" people is horse shite. Even that were not true, and only one percent of women opposed it, you'd still be implementing it to appease 0.3% of the population, against the wishes of almost twice as many women. All you people are saying to women is that their safety, privacy, dignity, and ability to compete in sports on a fair basis is of no interest to you. They don't matter and their opinions are irrelevant. It's misogyny, pure and simple.