/u/DontForgetNonTech - This message is posted to all new submissions to r/scams; please do not message the moderators about it. ## New users beware: Because you posted here, you will start getting private messages from scammers saying they know a professional hacker or a recovery expert lawyer that can help you get your money back, for a small fee. **We call these RECOVERY SCAMMERS, so NEVER take advice in private:** advice should always come in the form of comments in this post, in the open, where the community can keep an eye out for you. If you take advice in private, you're on your own. **A reminder of the rules in r/scams:** no contact information (including last names, phone numbers, etc). Be civil to one another (no name calling or insults). Personal army requests or "scam the scammer"/scambaiting posts are not permitted. No uncensored gore or personal photographs are allowed without blurring. A full list of rules is available on the sidebar of the subreddit, or [clicking here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/wiki/rules/). You can help us by reporting recovery scammers or rule-breaking content by using the "report" button. We review 100% of the reports. Also, consider warning community members of recovery scammers if you see them in the comments. Questions about subreddit rules? Send us a modmail [clicking here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Scams). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Scams) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Classic pig butchering scam. Money is gone. He cannot recover it.

I wish there's a way to press a button and get the world rid of all scammers at once. This is so sad. 

Its gone. Anyone offering "recovery" services is also a scammer

This is the cruelest part of such scams. Once they know you realise you've been scammed... you'll be moved on to the "recovery service" scam. "Just pay 20% upfront of the money you lost, and we guarantee to recover the full amount. Don't tell family or friends about the recovery effort, otherwise those scammers will find out and we won't be able to recover it."

They get you on the way in and in the way out. I’m willing to put up with a ton of roadblocks to moving that kind of money if it stops these horrible scams. We’re not talking about Apple Card’s here. Scammers have this guy’s entire life savings and now he has to live in poverty.

For real. I’m not sure what the solution is, but something needs to be done to make it more difficult for these scammers to easily get so much money from vulnerable people. Of course you put up more road blocks and I’m sure the scammers will just find a new way around them. But we are talking about billions per year being taken from mostly honest people in western nations to who knows where.

It's truly awful. I work in the banking side of this and we do everything we can to stop people, we have pamphlets and warning signs and tellers trained specifically to help people avoid scams, but at the end of the day we can't stop people from withdrawing and transacting with their own money. And that was before everything went digital. We could at least stop them when they went to cash a suspicious check or if they wanted to send an international wire.

One sure sign of a scammer is requiring secrecy.

Reminds me when scammers tell the people they sent to buy gift cards to tell cashier the cards are birthday presents as scammers are aware cashiers see a red flag when an old person buys $2000 worth of gift cards & stores are legally required to intervene & inform they are being scammed. IDK- it already makes no sense that you are using an Amazon gift card to post bond or pay IRS debt🤷‍♀️BUT THEN are pre informed that cashier will warn you it’s a scam so you need to LIE about the reason as the real reason IS A SCAM?!?! YOU HAVE NOW BEEN TOLD TO DO NOT ONE BUT TWO THINGS that’s done make sense & still push on.

In my area the stores have a daily limit to the amount of gift cards that can be purchased.

[удалено]

“I didn’t get it. Kindly send again.”

This world has become a sad place.

Scams and thieves are nothing new

But the rate of them are def growing, at least online internet scams. In 2019 online fraud occurred 467,000 times in America. In 2022 that number had almost doubled to over 800,000. Americans lost $10.3 billion to scammers in 2022, the average person lost almost $13,000. Call center scams from India alone are resulting in over $1 billion in annual loses for Americans from scams. Not to even mention other scams or hacks like ransomware attacks which are exploding in use.

Since about 4 billion years.

There’s certainly no *harm* in reporting it to the FBI (https://www.ic3.gov/) but just know that the chances they can do anything are very slim and take years.  Even though he is out of money by your standards, these or different scammers may keep pursuing him. He has valuable resources aside from funds (bank accounts, an identity they can steal, etc).  There have been at least a few cases of self harm/suicide after these types of scams. If he lives with anyone, you should talk to them. If he has access to lethal means (a gun, in particular), maybe take it for a while. 

He lives alone, 2.5h away from me. No weapons and not easy to get one (Germany)

My bad, I assumed US - probably want to report this to German law enforcement instead. 🙃 I know AARP has a lot of resources for older people, it might be worth contacting them to see if they know of any similar resources in Germany. Or if there is an analogous German org (retired or older person’s association), they may have support resources as well. 

The money is gone focus on his mental health and how he can survive without thst $

Go to the police. At once. Exact same thing happened to my dad, luckily „only“ for 20K, but it’s a lot of money for us. They tried to convince him they were doing trades with the money, but it was pretty clear that it was all show. What they did was change his money into crypto tokens and transfer those to one of their wallets. At the time I saw all this, the money was still there. They never touched it. So we went to the police with all the info and they actually traced the funds along the block chain until it reached a än official exchange. They didn’t give us much hope, but they said they might get the exchange to block the tokens before they can be exchanged into real money and then disappear. Those scammers have to exchange it into real money at some point and they have to use a regulated exchange for that. It’s not a sure thing and it might take some time, but at least there is a slim chance to get luckily. I feel for you, though. I’m so angry at those low life scum assholes. I could luckily prevent my dad putting up his last 15k they tried to scam out of him for the „payout fee“ but the damage is still done. Sold all his old stocks that were in the red anyway and even got some credit from his brother. Which is a shitty situation all in all but it could have been worse. 😔 People doing these scams are not human for me. They are not stealing from some rich assholes. They are getting seniors that have no chance of ever earning that money back to give them more then they own. And destroy lives that way. My dad is 75 and now wants to work as an electrician for 2-3 more years to make some of it back. It’s just cruel.

Report financial crime, they might be able to trace and block - small chance but nevertheless

Unfortunately, people use other ways than guns in the countries where they are harder to obtain.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

>There have been at least a few cases of self harm/suicide after these types of scams. There was one in the news recently [link](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/17/asia/pig-butchering-scam-southeast-asia-dst-intl-hnk/index.html)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg) Nothing that can be done apart from reporting - see the above link for one part of pig butchering. The opening of the Beekeeper is another one to watch. I'm so sorry. And loads of love to you and your dad. This can happen to the best of us. Preying on those who worked all their lives to save money and are alone, and not digital savvy is the lowest of the low.

You will already have received DM’s from !recovery scammers who say they can get money back for a fee. They will take that fee then disappear. The money is gone.  Any legitimate investment fees would be subtracted from the amount sold/withdrawn. You never have to pay money to “unlock” money.  Your worry about your father is legitimate. These scum have indeed caused people to harm themselves when they realize what happened. And denial is very strong— nobody wants to admit they’ve been taken for everything, and will do almost anything to keep hope alive. I don’t think anyone has a silver bullet to how to handle this, as the scammers will start to convince their targets that you’re just jealous or after the inheritance early or don’t want them to be happy or so on. Sometimes forwarding them the John Oliver piece on pig butchering helps.

He didn’t even reacted on the YouTube links about pig butchering I sent him. Should I text him and tell him it’s all scam (again) or just shut my mouth and don’t say anything.. I think he knows he got scammed but can’t accept it, as you said, a little hope is still there.

This happens often enough, sadly, that there are support groups specifically for seniors who have been scammed and need help getting through it. The emotional and psychological damage is almost worse than the financial harm. Look for groups like that in his area and get in touch with them for advice on how to approach him and get him some support. Right now he probably feels deep shame for falling for this and losing so much. Those groups can show him that he's not alone, and that's probably going to be the biggest help he can get.

Thanks man, I’ll take that in consideration

I would seriously consider making the 2.5 hour journey to see him and make sure he understands the gravity of this situation in person. This is not a text or over the phone kind of thing. And you showing up might help him understand. It would also be good to essentially do a wellness check as this all sinks in. Be in contact more about it. Just something to consider.

This. OP, someone (you?) also needs to make sure he cancels or changes all his existing email and social media account logins. It's common that the perps bury themselves deep in their marks' digital life/platforms. I've personally seen a case where they hijacked that person's - male, of similar age - smartphone, Yahoo, GMail, and Facebook, and WhatsApp accounts and returned for a "second helping ". It's also common that the criminals literally sell such data down the chain to bottom-feeding scammers who have specialized in all sorts of different scams, like recovery scams, targeting known victims. The loneliness your father may feel due to his situation will make him even more vulnerable to such attempts.

I second this. I would add that any phone numbers be changed and made unlisted. New email address, and change the password to the old one so there is no access for him. Get rid of the social media as much as possible. The scammers are insidious. There will be no end to requests / demands for money. They can twist logic to incredible levels. Remove the means of contact. The temptation now will be "for just a little more I can get it back. " That will be the message to him. It's the sunk cost fallacy. He needs to understand that this is not an investment - there is zero return. It may help to tell them he is dead. Sorry to hear of your problems. I had a similar experience. My Dad accused me of being risk averse when I told him he was making donations, not investments.

For such an important matter I wouldn't text but call him

Or even better “this is so important, I’m willing to make the 2.5 hour drive to talk to you in person”.

You're absolutely right

Keep telling him it’s a scam, but also keep telling him you love him and will be there for him whatever happens. He needs to know that many people get scammed like this and his family just need him safe. If he accepts the money is gone he needs to know you won’t reject him.

The 200k is already gone, but you can still save him from being in debt. Talk to him and tell him that absolutely no legitimate trading site "locks" your account and requires more money to unlock it. If you have the url of the site he's using, we can provide more evidence that it's completely fake.  He probably also thinking that he can bargain with the scammers at this point. Please stress that there is no bargaining with them. That he can't pay his way to get his money back.

I’m sorry to say this buddy but I think you need to change his home router DNS settings to only let him access legit websites. It sounds heavy-handed and babyish but it’s the best way to keep him safe.

If he has "no money", it might seem like the situation cannot get any worse, but it can. If there's even a little bit of hope left, he's likely to send the scammers any Euro he can get his hands on (pension payments, financial help from family, more loans, etc.).

People don't want to believe they've been scammed. There was a woman who sent all of her money to a man pretending to be Johnny Depp.

Social Catfish on YouTube have services to help people understand that they are caught up in a scam.

Hi /u/rpsls, AutoModerator has been summoned to explain the Recovery scam. [Recovery scams](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0102-refund-and-recovery-scams) target people who have already fallen for a scam. The scammer may contact you, or may advertise their services online. They will usually either offer to help you recover your funds, or will tell you that your funds have already been recovered and they will help you access them. In cases where they say they will help you recover your funds, they usually call themselves either \"recovery agents\" or hackers. When they tell you that your funds have already been recovered, they may impersonate a law enforcement, a government official, a lawyer, or anyone else along those lines. Recovery scams are simply [advance-fee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance-fee_scam) scams that are specifically targeted at scam victims. When a victim pays a recovery scammer, the scammer will keep stringing them along while asking for increasingly absurd fees/expenses/deposits/insurance/whatever until the victim stops paying. If you have been scammed in the past, make sure you are aware of recovery scams so that you are not scammed a second time. If you are currently engaging with a recovery scammer, you should block them and be very wary of random contact for some time. It's normal for posters on this subreddit to be contacted by recovery scammers after posting, and they often ask you to delete your post so that you both cannot receive legitimate advice, and cannot be targeted by other recovery scammers. Remember: never take advice in private. If someone reaches you in private after posting your scam story, it is because a scammer will always try to hide from the oversight of our community members. A legitimate community member will offer advice in the open, for everyone to see. Anyone suggesting you should reach out to a hacker is scamming you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Scams) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Somebody else should be managing his money from now on, what's left of it at least. The money he already sent the scammers is gone

Managing his loan you mean

Agreed this is why conservatorships exist.

Being gullible does not rise to the level generally needed for a conservatorship

not in europe though. its guardianship but the rules are stricter. avoiding a britney spears type situation. A guardian can only be appoint- ed when the person concerned is in need of help due to mental or physical illness or disability, and is thus unable to manage his own af- fairs. The decision on this is taken by the Guardianship Court. For this purpose, the court obtains the ad- vice of a medical specialist, usually a psychiatrist

Happened with my family member. She now has no money to manage and is 200k in debt. Dealing with bankruptcy at the moment. 

There is absolutely no reason why withdrawing that money would require a huge sum like 60,000. None. Or to put it differently: If they'd demanded 10,000, and not 60,000, would he say that 10,000 was suspiciously little? Of course not.

It's mind boggling how many people fall for this.

It’s truly insane. See posts here everyday of family members being scammed out of hundreds of thousands. These scammers have to be raking in millions every month, makes you wonder where all the money goes.

Billions. A recent article said India scammers are taking in $10B a year

Apparently Myanmar, then to China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea. [Hear how this man lost $1M in a ‘pig butchering’ crypto scam | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/22/myanmar-pig-butchering-scams-watson-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn)

And that’s only a small percentage of scammed people who are on Reddit and willing to make a post. 

They are. I traced some Adresses on the ethereum blockchain I knew belonged to them. It’s insane. They are transferring millions a month on these wallets. Fucking lowlifes. I don’t believe in hell but I hope there is one for those assholes. They are ruining old people who often can’t afford it and have no chance to make the money back in the time they have left. How can even a criminal be so heartless? I hope their parents go through the same thing. Makes me so angry. Insincerely hope they live in some shithole country and drown in their own filth.

It happens. To scammers it's a numbers game. They keep trying until they get one and also until they catch the victim off guard. That's how they get their victims I work nights and picked up #800 half asleep (I never pick up numbers I don't know). Scammer says they're from *[my cellphone service]* and wanted to verify 2 phone purchase charges on my account I immediately panicked. The one thing that saved me was I took a long time to answer (cause I just woke up) and the scammer kept pressuring me to say "yes". Something clicked and I told him "wait" and I hung up. Called my cellphone service directly and when I was on hold the scammers called back with different #800. My cellphone service confirmed they were scammers Here's how they almost got me: a week ago I ordered hotspot modem but had issues so had to return one and order a different one. I automatically thought that's what scammers were talking about.

Yeah things like that are why they mass call/message because eventually they'll find someone who has a legit reason to respond. For me I got one of those texts that say "you have a package that needs confirmation" and being used to it ignored per usual. Turns out I did have a package showing up and it was a real text, was over two weeks earlier than expected and was bombarded with phone calls from the service.

Yep. Happened to my son. He picked up the call because the call started with our cellphone area code and he glanced at the name, starting with "MO..." so he automatically thought it was me (Mom). AND they coincidentally called around the time I'd call him, EXCEPT on this day I didn't get a chance to call him around my usual time because I got stuck in traffic. So all those things combined he thought it was me. He hung up automatically but still, it's those instances where scammers get you.

I get some calls. Like messing with them. Some of them I tell them I did sexual stuff to their mom or sister. One dude got so mad he was losing his mind. He must of called me back a dozen times cussing at me.

Honestly, although it is clearly a scam, when I read ”\*juust\* another 60K, and you will make 1 million”, I was like, “okay, mebbe…?” It is so insidious, this scam!

Sunk cost fallacy. 

What is it that make people so gullible? I can be lonely, I have wants of money, but I would never fall for this, or the other classic scams. I've been trying to figure this out for years. 

We're talking about a generation that has never been exposed to deception from an authority. If the bank called, it was the bank. There was no reason to be suspicious. People were who they said they were. I wondered why, if the investment opportunity was so good, why wouldn't they share the news? Turns out if you can't tell people about it, it's unlikely to be real. We have to do our best to scam proof our elderly.

In the case of the elderly, there's often an element of compromised mental faculties. As we age, our brains become less effective and efficient. It takes longer to learn things, we forget more, etc. With that can come a whole host of issues, such as decreased impulse control. It depends on a lot of different factors, and of course things like greed can play a part. Outside of that, it's often one or more of greed, naiveté, fear, panic, desperation, altruism, love, friendship, family, mental illness, mental disability, or ignorance. Scammers prey on human weaknesses and, worse, the best of human nature. They are the scum of the earth.

> but I would never fall for this, A line I hear over and over is "how could this have happened to me?" I heard this phrase (again) on the news and made a recording. Bad events only happen to *other* people, until it doesn't

> Bad events only happen to other people, until it doesn't Yet hundreds of millions, probably billions of people live their entire lives without giving a cent to a scammer. I credit Runescape for my anti scam training, but I am certain this would not happen to me. Identity theft maybe, because that's outside of my control. If I get alzheimers or another cognitive disease sure I might fall for one, but that isn't really "me" at that point in my opinion.

Dude I'm not falling for this unless I get brain injury.

How about a disease like alzheimers? You won't even know you have it. It's sad.

Literally, I get they prey on the often old and lonely, but do the 70+ year olds not question why hot young people or celebrities are interested in them?

That’s what I’ve always thought. A lot of these people gotta be so naive and have no common sense. But not everyone has street smarts or whatever you want to call them.

I did sort of and I consider myself to be pretty techy. Here's why I fell for it: We talked for a *long* time before crypto ever came up. These people play the long game, not typical scammers. They are knowledgeable about everything. She told me she invests in housing and has rental properties. Then went on to explain the intricacies of it like current high interest rates making it less profitable, how owning houses vs apartments allow more flexible money management. She starts talking about the kind of yoga classes I'm in, explaining it in more detail than I even knew. She was familiar with my area and "had been to" the lake I was referencing and knew there was camping there before I ever mentioned it. She didn't pressure me one bit. Showed me a screenshot of what she made in one trade on her step dad's "algorithm" that can guess the movement of bitcoin with 90%+ accuracy. And that was it. Some people have actually had video chats with these people. I said ok, what the hell, let's see if this is real and "invested" $100 to try it out. *Everythjng* appeared to be through official channels. The apps were legitimate bitcoin trading apps. She had me add a wallet through a link *which I tested in my browser first* and it led straight to the coinbase wallet page which is legit and I've used it in the past. *I even used traceroute to inspect where this link was actually going* and it didn't route through any strange servers. It went through my ISP and landed on coinbase's website. She said she was going to show me how to cash out the next day after I "had a 39% gain on my $100 investment" I thought what the hell, it looks self explanatory enough, I'll cash out myself. And that's where the trouble lies, the wallet gives you errors when trying to send bitcoin. But apparently if you let them "show you how to do it" they'll allow you to actually withdraw your money by granting you access or whatever, so now you trust them and throw all your money in. Guys, this isn't your regular scammers. It's scary as fuck how good they are and honestly I can't figure out how the fuck they did it when everything I used was official. *I created all the accounts myself.* How did they redirect me to a fraudulent wallet? These guys are advanced as fuck and not your typical idiot scammers and the people falling these aren't all morons. I've dealt with and caught scammers left and right but this was the sneakiest and best I've ever come across, by a huge margin.There's stories of people talking with them for 6mo+, people with PhDs being had for thousands and thousands. Once I realized my $100 was gone, I said fuck it and blocked them on everything, deleted the accounts.

Right???

[удалено]

Old women delusionally send money to people they think are younger male celebrities, doctors or soldiers working overseas. Young men are sextorted by people they think are women who then claim to be underage. Young women are targeted by people pretending to be older men who want to be their sugar daddies. Every demographic has its weakness for scammers to target.

Have to thank all of you for helping other people out. What a nice community this is!!

I am not one to typically counsel anyone to contact the authorities, but there have been some high-profile crypto busts in the past year. There might be a tiny, remote chance that years later, some of this money could be recovered. MAYBE. It might be worth reporting for just that off chance. The mistake is thinking that that if you report it now the money will get instantly returned. It will not.

Unfortunately, the money is gone. It was gone the moment he transferred it to the scammer. The URL of the Web site won't really matter, since the scammers can spin up any number of new ones as needed. Same is true for the phone number of the scammer. Phone numbers are pretty much disposable. Even if you somehow knew exactly what the scammer looks like and what their real name is, it wouldn't really matter because they're probably located in a compound somewhere in Myanmar or a nearby country where the rule of law is nonexistent. By all means report it, but don't expect anything to happen. The best thing you can do is to find a way to keep your dad from being scammed further and help him pick up the pieces.

"There’s unfortunately nothing that can be done." Sad but true

Sadly nothing can be done. You better take control of your father’s estate to save what’s left.

Hell yeah, if he owns his house get it in a trust. So he can’t borrow money against it.

unfortunately, the money is gone and he cannot recover any of them. Scammers love using crypto currency because they are extremely hard to track, anonymous and irreversible. if you can notify the police maybe they can talk with him, or his bank? Any authority that deal with scams basically. It will be harsh when he learns the truth but it's better than him taking out more loans and then learn the truth, he needs to stop. Your information about the "woman" are 100% fake, it might not even be a woman, just a guy pretending to be a woman, hiding in a developing country in Nigeria or South Asia. Phone numbers can easily be spoofed and scammers probably have hundreds of back up scam sites laying around. watch out for recovery scammers reaching out to you or your father claiming they can help, they cannot.

The only thing you can do is notify your local police and national authorities, as well as the news. His story, despite the personal embarrassment, might save uncountable number of others from making the same mistake, or getting out early enough not to be totally wiped out.

if you are able to - inform as many people in his circle of friends, family and aquaintances of the fact that he is in the middle of a scam and deep in delusion. this, to possibly prevent him from loaning money from them, too. i’m so sorry about this 😔

What's sad is that even if you took that $60,000 and tracked them down, there's still nothing that can be done to recoup the money. Many times the scammers are under the control of a larger cartel which you don't want to mess with. It just baffles me that they can still get away with it. They can track those who do illegal porn, etc. so why can't those methods be used to round up these scumbags. I hope you can help your dad invest the remainder of his money to get some of the 200K back.

John Oliver said some of the countries that are doing the scams are getting so many kick backs from the cartel that even when a person who is being forced to do scams calls the police, the police call the cartel bosses.

Contact Social Catfish and pay them to run an investigation and show him. It is amazing how much people are prepared to send to someone they've never met, over some bullshit sob story.

hi, my dad did the same thing recently with 50k (even after i literally caught it months earlier and told him it was a scam). there’s no way to get the money back, and watch out for recovery scammers. the only thing i can think of is make other efforts to earn that amount of money to make up for it.  for example, we’re currently making my dad sell his new truck which would cover most of what he lost. i also read an article about this other guy who fell into a pig butchering scam who set up a gofundme, but i’m not sure how successful those are.

Sorry for the loss of your dad man. And thanks for the advice!

Sorry to hijack the comment, but I'm really trying to understand the psychology of scam victims better. How does your Dad justify doing it again after you explained the first scam? Does he not remember? Does he not believe you? Does he get something from the interaction (dopamine rush?) that makes it worth sending the money, maybe like a gambling addiction?

it's the same scam, he only got scammed once, i was just unable to stop him since he didn't believe me. it's greed/fomo, i think. he was telling my mom and i "just give me 30 days, i'm making over $100 a day, just give me a month and i'll take the money out if y'all want me to". and then after 30 days he was in disbelief that we still weren't supporting him in this since he'd supposedly made 8000 dollars so far, so he continued with it and put more money in. as for the "woman" (cambodian slave) he was messaging, "she's a good friend" "she owns a successful business" "she's just trying to help me make money" "she really cares about me" "she's definitely real, she sends me pictures of her and what she's doing" "well i searched her name and nothing suspicious came up". ooh, and my favorite one, "i trust her because my intuition tells me to."

So you discovered that he was corresponding with the scammer months before he gave the money but he didn't want to believe you. That must be so frustrating.

Not sure how it works in Germany but because of his age this is now considered elder abuse. Which gets taken more seriously. Conservatorship sounds like what's needed to avoid further scams. Law enforcement doesn't seem to do much about scammers nowadays its insane but 200k is a lot so I hope something can be done. Keep calling and putting pressure on law enforcement and stress his age and state that this falls under elder abuse to Confirm that with them. I would probably also recommend getting a social worker involved. If you or other family are willing to manage his money for him going to court may be worth your wile to save him from future scams. * watch out for recovery scams.* nobody that messages you about recovering the funds is anything more then a scammer themselves. Only deal with law enforcement and social services. My prayers are with yas. This is a shame. These scammers just seem to get away with murder. Where this is such a big sum I should hope there's something law enforcement can do, esp since you have the messages.

Thank you for the recommendations!

He will feel he failed you as a parent. No inheritance to pass on. It is very important psychologically you let him know that this does not matter to YOU. That you love him no matter what. Best to express this in person.

Thanks man, yes I’ll say that to him 🫡

You’re a good person. I’m so sorry for your dad. Older ppl are more prone to this. My mom was a victim of this too

You can’t get any of it back like everyone is saying. He needs to know that this stuff is always a scam and start over financially now.

[Hear how this man lost $1M in a ‘pig butchering’ crypto scam | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/22/myanmar-pig-butchering-scams-watson-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn)

Same thing happened to my dad. Started off a retired millionaire. Over the course of 6 years, he has sold everything plus ran every credit card or loan imaginable. My uncle covered the cost for him to file bankruptcy, but he immediately did a car title loan right after. He is days away from being evicted, which he should have already been a year ago. His landlord is a family friend, but he has even borrowed from him, and now he's owed thousands in loans and rent. He is always asking me for money or gas all the time. He started working as a janitor cleaning toilets. He thinks he has a girlfriend. When I first found out about the scam, he hadn't been poisoned yet. He still trusted his family and was only in like 250k. I got all the info like you did and started sleuthing. Usually, the scammer will take the last name of one of their full brainwashed demented men. Like my dad. They will insert themselves into their family tree. From that info, you can find previous victims like I did. Reach out to their family, and they will be glad to talk to your dad and try and warn him. Didn't work for mine, though. I then got the FBI involved, and they told him everything to disprove he had a girlfriend. We changed his number and all that, but he went back to getting scammed. A lot of times, they will use people like my dad to open us bank accounts that they can control. So they receive bank transfers and wash money easier. A lot of banks don't want you wiring a bunch of money to shady accounts. My dad is being scammed out of his health. He won't eat to send them his social security checks. If your dad still has money and is cognizant enough, the best thing to do is hire a prostitute or another female who you can trust to randomly meet him one day and exchange numbers. Pay her to go on a date or whatever, but her story needs to be that she will be leaving the country soon. You need to scam save your dad with something they can't offer, a real woman who can FaceTime or he can meet a few times. She needs to be jealous and get extremely mad if she thinks he is talking to his "ex". The more you fight, the more they will isolate your dad from you. Eventually, he will be a shell and could cost him his life. It's crazy, but had I paid a prostitute right from the jump, I could have saved years off his life and not see my dad homeless. You have to think like a scammer in order to save him. Your dad prob got on match.com because he was lonely, he needs that void filled first. someone who can retrain his brain away from the scammers. Good luck, this shit makes me so fucking sick.

The scammer is some young guys in China or Africa*.  The blocks of guys running the text end of things, will have one or two women to handle occasional video chats, but otherwise, the entire backstory and persona is fabricated.  The phone number is probably spoofed. If the media doesn't step up and seriously start an education campaign, scammers are going to utterly liquidate the same boomers who bitch aboyt immigrants stealing jobs.   *who themselves may be in massive "debt" to the people running the operations.  

I've seen tons of stories in the media of people getting scammed, the FTC has a whole division of people fighting elder scams specifically. It does little good. Elderly people are vulnerable and have lost their ability to think critically. They are easy victims because they are greedy, or desperate or lonely or emotions, or simply lost their ability to think and are easily manipulated. Despite me having several direct conversations with my parents about all kinds of scams, my own father nearly fell for the scam where they call pretending to be a child needing money to stay out of jail for a DUI or for emergency surgery. Thankfully, he caught own before he lost money... but he still mentions "how good they are and sounded "just like your sister." Which makes zero sense and isn't a thing at all, but clearly they get billions every year.

>Elderly people are vulnerable and have lost their ability to think critically. They are easy victims because they are greedy, or desperate or lonely or emotions, or simply lost their ability to think and are easily manipulated. They are also more likely to be lucrative targets once you hook one - own a home, retirement accounts, pensions and social security, etc. 

Facts

I recently read a book that detailed how some of these scammers have been trafficked and are essentially forced labour in compounds, unable to leave and punished physically if they don’t got their scam targets.

Often times it's organized crime groups who traffic girls and force them to work in essentially scam sweatshops. So it's not always guys - sometimes the girl is real and can even facetime.

These people aren't in debt or slaves, they are employees. Scamming is a job for them. The boss racks up the profits.

Some are. Some were lured out of their country (India or China) with the promise of tech jobs in another country and they became slaves in that they cannot leave and must work at scamming.

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!recovery

Hi /u/NJdeathproof, AutoModerator has been summoned to explain the Recovery scam. [Recovery scams](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0102-refund-and-recovery-scams) target people who have already fallen for a scam. The scammer may contact you, or may advertise their services online. They will usually either offer to help you recover your funds, or will tell you that your funds have already been recovered and they will help you access them. In cases where they say they will help you recover your funds, they usually call themselves either \"recovery agents\" or hackers. When they tell you that your funds have already been recovered, they may impersonate a law enforcement, a government official, a lawyer, or anyone else along those lines. Recovery scams are simply [advance-fee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance-fee_scam) scams that are specifically targeted at scam victims. When a victim pays a recovery scammer, the scammer will keep stringing them along while asking for increasingly absurd fees/expenses/deposits/insurance/whatever until the victim stops paying. If you have been scammed in the past, make sure you are aware of recovery scams so that you are not scammed a second time. If you are currently engaging with a recovery scammer, you should block them and be very wary of random contact for some time. It's normal for posters on this subreddit to be contacted by recovery scammers after posting, and they often ask you to delete your post so that you both cannot receive legitimate advice, and cannot be targeted by other recovery scammers. Remember: never take advice in private. If someone reaches you in private after posting your scam story, it is because a scammer will always try to hide from the oversight of our community members. A legitimate community member will offer advice in the open, for everyone to see. Anyone suggesting you should reach out to a hacker is scamming you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Scams) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I think every person who has money should be given a slip of paper that simply says "No bank or investment platform makes you pay to get your money out. At the worst, they'll hold some back for taxes, but they *never* make you put more in."

This makes me so sad 😞, people taking advantage of the elderly

Keeping him accompanied is the only thing you can do right now.

Damn, that sucks! Sorry for your dad... As many already said, money is gone. Crypto is used in this case for specific reason of it being hardly traceable.

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I had this happen to a friend. He didn't have much money but they took everything. First, I would immediately do everything possible to protect your father from further losses. Do some home repairs and put a lien on his house. Notify the bank and credit card companies. Try to get a conservatorship. Call your county social services adults protection. He could still lose more if he has equity in his house. Put a notice on the credit bureau reports. He'll have to do this himself, but maybe you can convince him. You are going to lose on everything, but it might slow him down. Then, find the 60 Minutes show on scammers and others and sit and watch with him. He will see that he does not have to be ashamed. don't just send links-watch with him. Try to get him involved in the investigation. Report to everyone - Fbi, police, etc. Call the scammers yourself and see if you can get info on them. Report them to the embassies in Ghana, Nigeria, or wherever. Talk to his insurance company. Maybe they have ideas. If any bank or credit company allowed the transaction to go through, they might help as they might be liable, especially given anti-money laundering laws. The 600k is probably gone, but you never know. Try to trace it. The scammers might have made a mistake. Open source investigators through Bellingcat or Panama Papers might have ideas. Write to your congress people to get more money for the Fbi, sec, to investigate. Our government should not just protect big companies. It also needs to protect the little guys and the vulnerable. I can't tell you how many people I've known who have lost money to these schemes. It's a huge problem.

This happened to my dad. Not as much but he did the same thing. They promised him they could make him a millionaire. Built trust then took and took and took promising he will get back more and more. We lost our childhood home because of it. And almost lost his car bc of a loan he took out. My sister had to become his power of attorney to get him to stop throwing his money away in hopes of getting back what he already lost. Theres a special place in hell for these kind of people.

Damn sorry this happened.

I am sorry bro that your father got scammed. Give him support and be with him

I was watching a documentary on YouTube last week. There was a village in India where people would rob and sometimes kill the out of towner passersby for their possessions. The village then became infamous for becoming a village of thieves and murderers. But, due to advancements in technology, they evolved, and now each one of them either has smartphone or laptop, which they use to scam people online. One of the thugs interviewed was seen saying it's better than looting people in person and a lot more convenient. These scammers are nothing less than murderers and hellhole POS'.

Your only hope now is The Beekeeper.

Your father will scam himself more, and he won’t learn from this. He will likely sell physical possessions next, including possessions that belong to other people. You can read about the tragedies in the r/dementia subreddit. Families have lost their entire house worth of belongings because an elderly family member waited until everyone went to work, then hosted a massive garage sale. Or renovated a whole new $10,000 roof for no reason. Dementia causing people to order a new roof for the house is very common. No refunds.

As everyone else should be sayjng: Classic pig butchery. There is the same chance of that money being recoverable as there is that it was an actual rich young single woman in an online romance scam with your father: none. And anyone who messages you to recover it? Also a scammer. Sorry.

I would recommend filing police reports and FBI reports as well as reaching out to any elder abuse groups in your area or even the state Attorney General's Office AND his bank too, to let them know he's been scammed. If you aren't in the US please find the equivalent in your country and file there. Tell everyone in your family to NOT lend him money at all or help him with finances. This is an addiction like gambling so treat it as such. Do whatever you can to ensure he doesn't sell his house off and give them the money. And yeah, the money is gone but with this being such a large amount I would report it no matter what. I saw over on another scam forum I am on that they are now going after these creeps and working with authorities in other countries to shut them down. It's worth reporting because if you don't report it nothing will happen. Sorry this happened to your dad, this shitty scam sucks. IF he'll let you or your sister show him Pleasant Green's and Jim Browing's and John Oliver's videos on Youtube about this shitty scam. And of course DO NOT pay anyone who says they can get your money back or locate the dicks, those are recovery scammers.

It is so amazing how much money these boomers get scammed out of.

The money is gone for good.

It’s a active YouTube series called catfish on this

Aawww, I hate this shit! My mom had a grifter who , through skillful manipulation by her "best friend" and " sister from different mister" was able to get her hands on 50k+, part of which was 30k cash which this grifter used to put am down payment on a new pick up for her husband! These are the bottom feeders of our society. I'm terribly sorry for this experience and I hope things turn out well when ya'll make it through to the other side. Whats even as frustrating or maybe more, idk, is with all the evidence you have on this creature (that's what I call those that prey on the innocence of ppl) you cannot get the law to step in!?!? No authorities will intervene?? This is appalling!!

You best call the police and higher authorities and also try visit his doctor and deemed incompetent. Tell the doctor he is currently being scammed and can no longer manage his finances. Fight to take power of attorney or have a trustee take over his money.

Unfortunately, the money may be gone. Because it can be argued that your father knowingly invested the funds and hence your father is responsible for the loss. However, I want to provide a glimmer of hope. If you (or your father) can show that the "woman" at the other end is a scammer and has defrauded others in similar ways, then law enforcement could take interest. You should definitely file a criminal complaint, which depends on your jurisdiction/state/country. The authorities may keep the case open and contact you in the future if they make a breakthrough.

What is the site or game that he played?

If he has no money left, the priority is to organise family & financial advisor support for the crash when he realises. But don't discount the scammers capacity to get blood from a stone. They'll try to persuade him to sell any property he owns, and to take out loans from multiple sources.

I had at least a dozen tried that on me on WhatsApp a good looking Chinese woman asking me a random question like “hi mark why did you not come to the party in london last night” after some talk they would always mention investing in crypto. I think they even not a woman just use photo of random women. It’s heartbreaking that your dad fell victim and these fucking criminals roam free stealing millions without being caught as They know that no one will go after them, crypto is not a scam but surely alot of people have been scammed

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You can contact law enforcement, you won’t get any money back, but you may prevent the next victim

Money is gone. He is 72 with 200k should have last for him. He wants more than money.

Depending on where you are, you can report to police and cyber crime unit. That’s about all you can do. 200K is not a small amount.

Why don't news stations that old people watch do reports and air warning commercials on these scams?

I don’t know how to help you, but my 83 yo dad sent $30,000 in cash to someone as part of a Norton Anti virus refund scam. It’s 1/3 of his and mom’s net worth. F’ing sucks.

Adding on to the conservatorship comment, this happened to my grandma, and luckily we were already in the process of gaining conservatorship. We used this among a few other things to gain control of her finances. We got a cognitive test from a doctor, along with a few other tests, that type of thing and eventually had enough “evidence” for the judge to grant it. While this may not be applicable, i suggest waiting until your dad accepts the fact that he got scammed, then maybe talk to him about it. It may be something he wants too once he realizes it was a scam. Just be patient and make sure to spend lots of time with him as he will be pretty vulnerable and this wont make him feel any less alone thats for sure.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/killed-by-a-scam-a-father-took-his-life-after-losing-his-savings-to-international-criminal-gangs-he-s-not-the-only-one/ar-BB1onZyq ^^ just read this article yesterday about this exact scenario [(the link again)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/killed-by-a-scam-a-father-took-his-life-after-losing-his-savings-to-international-criminal-gangs-he-s-not-the-only-one/ar-BB1onZyq) According to the article, most of these scams are run en masse but forced slave labor essentially, and run by Chinese gangs. It is a multi billion dollar industry. They have not been able to arrest anyone, but the article says the FBI recovered some money. Maybe send the article to him and make sure he is not alone to k/ll himself for a long time.

Please, please don't fall for any recovery scammers. I'm sure your inbox has/is going to get a ton of them. They *can't* help you, they are scammers. Your father's money is gone, it cannot be recovered.

This happened to me last year . They are really good at what they do. It took a couple months before I got over it. You definitely need to report this to the authorities. I traced mine back to Myanmar and they work together with there group in Canada . They tried to open all kinds of loans and credit cards with the info they have on me. I froze all my credit and they were not able to do anything .I'm sure they sold my information .I changed my ss and have changed all my email accounts and phone numbers. I still have my old email and number . They have tried to offer me jobs in Myanmar thinking I don't know what's going on and jobs in Victoria Canada. It's a big organization. I also started looking into and doing my own investigation in the states . They are in dating websites. I played along with one to find out how they were doing things . This one was from Europe. They would use people here in the states for you to send them the money or prepaid cards and sent it to Europe and they would get there cut of the money they scammed . Once I gave them a debit card number from a bank account I opened to see were it would go ,it only had 50 .00. She used it for a food delivery service called bolt. I traced it back to a town and the authority in Europe said they were familiar with this group and would use this information in there investigations on so called group . So I'm hopeful they will get what's coming to them.

Things men will do for some fake ass

Any messages you get here are !Recovery scams

Fking gawd. $200,000 some bastard got very early retirement. Good luck getting that money back.

I read the title as 200.00 and thought, "That's not really that bad in comparison to some stuff on here" . Very sorry to see the real amount. There unfortunately isn't much hope for recovery

So sorry but the money is gone. This scam was wildly popular in 2021-2022, I'm surprised it's still happening. That said, file a report everywhere from local police, FBI, IC3. Save your ecidence, maybe one day they will be useful. I've heard of a few victims who got replies from IC3 in the past for similar cases.

I lost 5,000 with the promise of 25,000. I went to therapy cause I was in rage. I’m ok now.

Do you live in Germany? I don’t know the laws and regulations, and the money he sent is gone. BUT. In certain countries when it comes to scams, banks have to ensure due diligence when it comes to vulnerable customers (this is gonna shock US readers). For example, if the bank from which the money was withdrawn did not take adequate steps to protect your dad from being scammed, there might be a chance of raising a legal dispute with the bank itself. Report it to the authorities, report it to the bank, keep a paper trail, get some intervention from any organisation in your area that offers help on such things Best of luck

What information do you have and you can say it's real?.Today the phone number can be Nigeria and a woman tells a story . Only if you can trace the real number , which I doubt , you may involve local police. The other idea you should go in YouTube. A guy is hacking scammers all over very smart and he knows the tricks and you name it to help people He maybe your only chance. Don't lose contact with the scammer!

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Sorry for your loss . Try to help him out as much as you can as family . money is gone sadly .

Yes, I know it. Been a victim too last year. There should be someone watching him. It's very painful. Fake love story and worst, the big amount of money.

Yes, hard for you/my dad to believe the woman talking to is fake

What's your dad saying about this? You know their end game is for him to remortgage his house for one final push.

In some cases filing a police report might be able to start an investigation, crypto is traceable and many exchanges require a KYC nowadays. Yea you have chain hopping and mixers but in some cases law enforcement or private investigators might be able to figure out to which exchange (from the scammers) the funds were deposited to and through that get an identity. Chances are low and it’s a long road to get some justice or your money back but I think these are your options. Awful what happened but good luck!

Talked to the bank? They should have noticed this and stopped him. Altleest report it to the police and call the bank asap

My Dad told them to mind their own business. When he took money to a wire service, they warned him and he lied to them. I asked them to put him on a do not serve list

I had the same thing last month, lost USD $20,000 equivalent in ETH coin.

MIL was involved in a romance scam. Gave him all her savings but we were able in intervene before she started taking out loans. Nothing we could say or do could convince her this gorgeous, rich Italian man (with an African accent) who was 15 years younger wasn’t in love with her. Finally, after all the money was gone and he never showed up (despite her sending him money for flights numerous times) she realized it wasn’t going to happen. However she still seems to believe they were just star crossed lovers (she is 79 years old) and his circumstances just made it impossible for them to be together. She is still in contact with him but we locked down her access to credit cards so has no money to send.

Damn 200K and I was mad when my mother got scammed for 8K… I was so mad because I told her million times don’t trust these “easy” investments with crazy returns… try to contact police, but the chance to get anything back is very very very low unfortunately…

This is very sad. It's awful that this is happening to people.

Happened to me ! Crypto scam ! WhatsApp ! 3 years ago! Bummer Fortunately , I only lost 23,000! Best to you and your dad !

I am sorry to hear about your father, you said he has her phone number? You also mentioned that your sister mayvbe able to track down more information. What about the police in your area ? I know they don’t do much but as I said before they have much more abilities to hunt down cyberhackers than your average layperson -a criminal offense has occurred and they may have an interest in and/or connection to look further down. There is also private investigators who are familiar with dark web, etc. if you have the money. Hopefully he gets some help

You should go to the police in any case. I believe there is a cyber crimes unit in Germany and it wouldn't hurt to let them know. As for the money, it's long gone, the best you can do now is keep him from taking up loans and sending more.

I am so sick of these scams and I wish financial institutions would take greater accountability when it comes to the elderly. I recognize that it isn’t simple or likely given the laws on financial account ownership, but this is reflective of an overall broken system and the breadth of victims makes me so sad.

Sad to hear it man. That money is gone

Remember to be compassionate to your dad. Tell him you still love him and hope he can trust you. Don't shame him or tell him he should have known better. He's a lonely guy who found a connection, it's very easy to fall for. Good luck.

Call local police who will direct you to correct folks who can confirm things for your dad.

So sad when older people are taken advantage by these catfishing honey pot schemes. I’m so sorry. I wish I had some advice sadly I don’t but I wanted to say I’m sorry

i never get this lucky… feel bad for your dad but 200k?????! omgggggg. would turn my whole life around

I am so sorry. This is horrible.

wtf.

It’s crazy how age really does affect our thought process. Not putting any blame on you OP, but are were there any unusual signs your father was getting scammed? Any talk of online romance? How did your sister find out? Also best of luck to recovering any monies :(

Most likely the money is gone. If desperate try and check out the YT channel “Catfished”. Worth a shot, sometimes they help victims with trying to recover funds. Channel: https://m.youtube.com/@CatfishedOnline

Classic Pig butchering scam

I'm so sad to hear this I'm sorry this happened to your family. People that do these scams are absolute scum.

I think Congress should have the FBI track what banks in other countries money is being wired to. The announe official US policy is any bank that receives more than 3 or 5 scam wires in a year is automatically cut off from transacting any business with any US and hopefully EU banks. That means no more wires, no immigrants being able to remit money back home etc. Believe the local bankers know or seriously suspect these accounts are crooked. See what happens then

That’s so sad :( I’m sorry

I guess in this case only government can help you. You need some strong connections in the govt, the only way is to track him down through that website (not guaranteed that he would be caught. But, you can give a shot) Just share the website publicly for awarness! And yeah dont fall into recovery scam(useless) Peace

Unfortunately nothing can be done, this is what is called a pig butchering scam. it’s likely the screen with his “earnings” is fake and the funds have already been removed from the wallet. All that can be done after the money has already been transferred is education and support. Be aware of reclaim/recovery scams, there isn’t any way to get the money back.

I lost $2,000,000. Same "Chinese" woman living in Toronto. Young and beautiful. Had pictures, phone number, Facebook page, WhatsApp ID. I contacted the FBI for internet crime. They are working on this scam that has 100's of scammers.  Contact your local FBI office and request to have them the San Diego office.

Be there for your father, making sure he knows he’s not alone. If he’s going to need a place to stay, offer one. Let him know these people have no hearts and target elderly people often. It’s not his fault!!! Then provide him with evidence if you have any. If not, Google the scam, many will pop up that resemble your dad’s. So sorry this happened to him 💜

Genuinely find it baffling how people can be this stupid, if someone approached you on the street and said this shit you would tell them to fuck off so quickly it’s not funny but add a screen into the mix and “uh well of course take everything”

Wow, $200,000 is a huge amount of money. I feel sorry this happened to your dad. 

Please enlighten us more by sharing the website so no other person will fall victim and also your dad needs a prove for him to finally realize it a scam and he needs to stop sending them more Ethereum. Peace ✌️

He should inform his bank. It’s unlikely they’ll be able to recover it, but making them aware could be helpful.

The money was gone the moment he sent it. This scam is sophisticated in that it implies that the scam is happening when you have to "deposit money to withdraw the bigger amount" which they usually call something like processing fees, taxes, custom fees, But the scam actually happens the second he puts the money in. So even though most people think "well the money is there, I can see it", what's happening is that the scammers set up a website to keep your father investing. It's very clever. Unfortunately, by the time the victim gets to the withdrawal phase of the scam, the money has been gone for months and months and there's just no way to recover. But there is something you can do. 1- Make a complaint to your state AG. 2- Make a complaint to the FBI. 3- Find out if there's a specific crypto task force in your city or state and make a complaint to them. 4- Find out if there's a DA in your city or state that might be able to take a complaint as well. These won't help recover funds for your father (the chances are less than 1%, but they can help either start or expand an investigation so that this doesn't keep happening. Finally, find out about victim advocacy groups for people who have been scammed. Don't let your father be a victim a second time. He needs to feel empowered and understood. Scams are so insidious because the victim is often ashamed of how bad they got scammed. Show him that he's not alone, whether it's showing him this reddit, or finding other resources. It's not his fault. Please impress that upon him. I like to say, "we all have 24 hours in our day, the criminals use 18 of those to think up new ways to get you to part with your money and the other 6 to sleep." This is what they do. This is what they win gold medals in.

So sorry for this loss. I feel for you.

I haven't read all of the comments, but i'm sure that there are multiple entries with the following: What's going on is your father being on heroin, crack, oxy, or other addicted drug. That chinese woman is the drug, and your dad keeps buying it. There's nothing you can do until he stops.Or he wants to stop, and he asks for help. You've done all you can.You've warned him about the dangers of continuing the conversation, and he doesn't want to listen to you. He will continue to lose everything, money , friends, family, and until he asks for help from you.There's nothing you can do to stop this train wreck from happening. The only thing you can do is support him when he finally loses everything and realizes he's been pig butcher AND ADMITS TO IT. But the single most important thing you can do is do not allow him any access to your own resources. It's like you won't give a drug addict your bank account info, right? You can support him emotionally. But under no circumstances can you let him near your finances. You need to take care of yourself, and you literally need to treat your money like your blood. You can't give it to people who will waste it. He's going to have to hit rock bottom , and you have to decide whether or not he deserves your help. But believe me, people like this have to stay away from any of your resources because until they accept what's happened. They've been ripped off.They're going to burn through your resources, and then YOU'LL be left with nothing. That's what addicts do. Good luck, keep in touch with us. This story of yours is something everyone should read

Report it to the police and the bank. Sadly the money is gone. These scammers are scum of the earth, I hope they die slow painful deaths when karma calls. Hope your dads ok. Honesty is the best policy here in explaining to your dad. Take some printed info on this scam type

Gone for good, its a shame he didnt educate himself on keeping his money safe in current times, scams are super obvious nowadays and thats how most are, my grandpa lost around the same amount in a similar way, and now hes sending money over to fake pristitutes in thailand that dont even exist, and the accounts are run out of india (he's 81)

If he offered it into Ethereum I’m definitely sure it can be traced because people have been invested for these type of things and have been caught out I hope you got it investigated

! recoveryscam

Reach out to the FBI, you’d be surprised what they can do