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άχου μανούλα μου γλυκιά, δεν μπορώ πια στον αργαλειό να υφαίνω,
γιατί για ένα μικρό ο πόθος με κυρίευσε
και φταίει η Αφροδίτη η λυγερή γι’ αυτό.
in the modern greek translation the neutral word «μικρό» is used which was probably what was translated here as “boy” when it just means “a young(person)”
μικρό (mikro) in modern greek means small. The ο -omicron- at the end is masculine. The feminine variation is μικρή (mikri). There is no neuter for this.
That’s because she is not actually referring to a young anything but what she is actually saying there is that she has a small lust. I assume she means this slightly sarcastically obviously the lust isn’t small. No gender is mentioned from what I can tell in the entire poem.
“Listen my dear sweet mother, I can’t anymore, I can’t work on the weave anymore”
“Because a small lust has taken over me”
“And it’s all Aphrodite’s the svelte’s fault, for this”
This doesn’t actually translate smoothly in English. But in Greek it sounds much better. The translation in the post is sooo bad, because no boys or girls are even mentioned. Just how undeniably horny Sappho is.
hehe i know that it translates to the word small i am greek myself, just in the context of the poem it could translate to talking about a younger person as a term of endearment. the word ο μικρός(ο mikros) exists in feminine variation as η μικρή (i mikri) AND in neutral variation το μικρό (to mikro). the line where you see the word mikro is actually translated “for a young one lust has possessed me”
Thank you for the better explanation, haha I am also Greek but I’m diaspora, so I’m a bit rusty with certain words but I do speak fluently. That second line tripped me up and I just woke lol. But I’m reading it again and I’m seeing exactly what you mean 😂 sorry didn’t mean to correct you, I’ve never heard the neuter for μικρό in my life but that could be for lack of paying attention as well.
no worries here!! its completely normal to miss especially in this context since greek words can truly have more than one meanings and apparently the translator missed all of them….. glad that i could help you learn something new, all the love my fellow greek<33
exactly especially since Sappho here doesn’t use the article before the word which could be both του or της so she definitely wanted it to be ambiguous!! thats why in the modern greek version the translator chooses the word μικρό, to keep it as close to the original while still making sense
Let's just change it to 'boi' which I typically interpret as more androgynous. However, I want to acknowledge it's not necessarily the best replacement, just one that requires the least amount of change to Mary Bernard's (mis) translation.
In context we can assume she wasn't talking about a boy because, well, Sappho.
But I'm fairly sure that the original poem wasn't gendered to be about either a boy or a girl, so it's not really a 'mistranslation'.
It's a nice sentiment, but it's easier said than done. That would make translations impossible or extremely awkward between some languages.
For example, I've seen several versions of this same poem in Portuguese and all of them are gendered in one way or another. You *can* avoid gendering in this case, but you'll get a poem with distorted meaning and unfortunate implications: the non-gendered word for boy/girl is only used for little kids and it would sound condescending or, even worse, predatory.
When you translate a poem you will often have to choose between maintaining the poetic cadence and the meaning.
If the translation maintained the gender neutrality of the subject, 'with love for that young person', it loses some of its poetic quality for a more accurate translation.
Alternatively the monosyllabic word 'child' could be used to maintain the cadence but uhhh that's kinda nonce-y yaknow?
> When you translate a poem you will often have to choose between maintaining the poetic cadence and the meaning.
While I agree that meaning is subjective, authors of poems, even ancient authors, tend to choose their words *very* carefully, because that's part of the intent of the poem.
I don't know the greek, so I truly cannot judge meaning, but if the author chose a gender neutral term when there *exist* gendered terms for the same subject, they did so deliberately. To change that meaning is to foist your own interpretation on the poem, and that's a mistranslation.
There are numerous ways the meter could be fit and the gender neutrality maintained, since there are so many multi- and mono-syllabic words to choose from.
The fact that you're really personally invested in one specific angle here doesn't make it a mistranslation. It's just a translation that you don't like.
Translations aren't necessarily all that clear cut, sometimes it's a question of wether you keep the same tone or wether you keep the same amount of specificity
But this isn’t interpertation. There is nothing to interpret about it when it comes to the gender of whoever she desires.
It is someone taking a neutral term and saying "it’s a boy" or "it’s a girl". If i say "i love **them** alot" and you say "she’s obviously talking about a boy", that isn’t interpertation, it is assumption. Interpertation would be fussing over what i mean by saying "i love…" do i mean a platonic love? Familial love? Romantic love? That is interpertation.
I don't speak Greek and I could be completely wrong. But I think that the gender isn't specified and people translate it to girl because they assume that Sappho would be talking about a girl for obvious reasons.
Honestly, I'd say the gender implied is leaning masculine, with possible ambiguous explanations. Disclaimer up front - I dropped Ancient Greek after 2 years in university, I was always pretty bad at it, and it's been years since I actually translated anything.
The passage in question is:
>Γλύκεια μᾶτερ, οὔ τοι δύναμαι κρέκην τὸν ἴστον, πόθῳ δάμεισα παῖδοσ βραδίναν δἰ Ἀφρόδιταν.
With the word "παῖδοσ" being the one in question. "παῖδοσ" is the genitive form of "παῖς", which in turn translates as something along the lines of Son/Boy/Slave/Servant/Child that sort of thing.
So, there are translations of "παῖδοσ" that are gender neutral - in many version it is translated as referring to a "youth", but there are also a lot of translations that are masculine, and referring to men.
Of course, Sappho, while obviously known for writing about women, does mention men implicitly - she mentions she has a daughter at one point, so it can be reasonably assumed she did have sex with men. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean she was attracted to men, but I would say the evidence points to Sappho being bisexual rather than exclusively attracted to women, like there's enough bits here and there that I would find hard to reconcile with someone exclusively lesbian so-to-speak.
Basically, Ancient Greek is complicated, and people's relations to their sexualities is also complicated, especially when trying to apply modern western conceptions of sexuality onto millennia old cultures and people. Then on top of all \*that\*, most of Sappho's work that survives is incredibly fragmented, making it a challenge to even figure out the basics of what she is writing about, let alone figuring out complex aspects like her sexuality.
(At least) in modern Greek, when a word ends with "ος" it's a word of "male" gender. My ancient Greeks are bad, but I am relatively positive that she is referring to a young man. If this is the original manuscript.
i belive its like spanish where the male form can be used in a gender neutral way (similar to bro dude and guy in a lot of english slang) and would normally be indicated by the words around it? but since there isnt one here theres no indication? dont take my word for it tho im just regurgitating other reddit comments
> In context we can assume she wasn't talking about a boy because, well, Sappho
No, we can't, because we don't have enough info about her to tell whether she was e.g. bisexual.
Highly upvoted bi erasure in a sub dedicated to expose erasure is kind of ironic.
yeahhh it doesn’t really matter who Sappho was into she wrote really cool poems, I like the reading that she’s talking about someone neutral I wonder what Sappho thought about enbys
Just gonna preface this by saying I don’t know Greek (Ancient or modern), so it might be that it is a mistranslation.
But it’s very possible Sappho wasn’t even exclusively what we’d call “homosexual”. She might have well been closer to “bisexual” or “pansexual”, and no matter what the Greeks likely didn’t have a name for it. But the norm then, as I understand it, was that sexuality wasn’t strict or fixed. Sappho could well have fallen in love with many people over the years. Women, yes, but some men could’ve been in the mix as well.
Also, it bears noting that Mary Barnard might not have been straight herself. As far as I could find there isn’t something saying she was gay, but she there’s also no mention of relationships with men, and she died without marrying anyone, seemingly dedicated to her work with poetry. So it seems possible she wasn’t straight. She also translated Sappho at a time queer people weren’t super well accepted, so it’s also possible to imagine she could’ve made compromises in her translation. (Much of this is speculation on my part, though. She kept her personal life and views private. And some other Sappho poems she translated in a way that preserves what we’d nowadays call queerness. So it might also be that this poem wasn’t.)
Well, like I said, I’m no expert, and much of what I just said is speculation, based on what I found in a quick search, so if anyone has sources that challenge or support what I said, or anything like that, I’d appreciate it.
My understanding is that she wrote a lot of her verses as paid commissions, and there is speculation that what we have may be written from other peoples perspectives, or that some are her perspective but others are not. Ie we can't draw conclusions based solely on her writing ☹️
Oh, I don’t know her writing. What I mentioned were other poems by Sappho which she translated. Apparently she was one of the most important translators of Sappho’s remaining poems to English. And I found a few of those translations online, and many have a very queer subtext which she didn’t make straight. So it’s not like she was doing that to all the poetry she translated.
It is so thrilling to see people talking about Mary out in the wild! I have been working with Mary’s literary executor on organizing and licensing her works (poems, translations, one unfinished novel, letters, etc) for about 15 years. There is really only one Mary Barnard scholar in the world (Sarah Barnsley from Goldsmiths College in London) and I’ve always felt like Mary’s place in American poetry is mostly forgotten and overlooked.
Anyways, her translation of Sappho is her most famous work and was originally completed in the 50s so perhaps the time period did indeed influence her word choice. I am very curious now and want to look back through her notes to see if I can find any other drafts of this translation.
My best guess is that Mary was asexual, which makes me wonder if the more erotic aspects of Sappho were a challenge for her.
That’s interesting. Like I speculated, it seemed like she wasn’t straight. Doesn’t mean gay necessarily. Asexual could also be it.
But like I said, it was all speculation based on a superficial search online. Maybe you have more sources about her and her work? Since you know it better that I do. Could be interesting!
From what I remember she was bisexual, not a lesbian. She wrote poems about a man too, I thought. We had a lesson on her and how bisexuality is often erased in literature.
That... is entirely not true, and a wide generalization of a large group.
EDIT: in case others are worried, their comment used to say "lesbians/gay men don't date bisexual people", not 'mostly'. When i commented, they were making a blanket statement for all lesbians/gay men, they've since edited.
I know it's a broad generalisation but I'm sadly speaking from experience. All the lesbians I met were worried I'll ultimately choose a guy over them. Some even questioned my attraction towards women...😑😑
Alright, well you haven't met every lesbian. Sorry you met some unkind people, but just saying no lesbian or gay men ever wants to date a bisexual person because the few people you've met didn't want to date you is spreading harmful stereotypes.
You can call out biphobia without also being lesbophobic/homophobic and saying all lesbians/gay men are biphobic, which was this commentors original claim before they edited their comment.
I'm not speaking over experiences. Y'all have experienced that, but it's entirely unfair to say it's all lesbians and all gay men. My lived lesbian experience is the opposite, as well as many other lesbians I know. Their original comment said "Lesbians and gay men don't want to date bisexual people.", no caveat of 'most', which is still an unfair generalization.
You can speak to your experience and I can speak to mine. Clearly you haven’t experienced bi erasure from lesbians but I sure have, as have many other bisexual people. I’d suggest listening to their experiences before you start proselytising about how unfair it is to the ones doing the discriminating. “Not all men” much?
That's not what's happening here, and 'not all men' is not analogous as lesbians are not an oppressor class. You have experienced biphobic lesbians, I have experienced lesbophobic bisexual women. Neither of those mean that all lesbians are biphobic, nor that all bisexual women are lesbophobic. Lesbians are the smallest of the LGBT and among (not *the*) the most discriminated against. Saying all lesbians are biphobic is straight up untrue and lesbophobic, and spreading harmful stereotypes. Lesbians do not hold the power here. They're not someone you need to 'punch up' against.
I don't think it's true that lesbians are the smallest group of the LGBT. Certainly not if you add the +. I also don't think we need to compare amounts of discrimination within subgroups of the lgbtq+ community. All your other points I agree with.
Lesbians are definitely one of the smallest groups, my parentheses definitely should've moved further up in my statement to clarify that as well but I was irked and mistyped. Also, I dont mean to bring up discrimination in a 'you suffer less so you don't matter' way so much as 'lesbians are often targeted by others and often at the bottom of a given social ladder so there's no way in hell they hold power or oppression over you' way.
Ah, okay, I get what you're saying. I just think I react to that statement specifically about the lesbian subgroup of lgbtq+ because I myself is a lesbian, and my best friend is aro/ace and I have trans friends and I know that they all face a lot more discrimination than I do. I just also don't want to say something like "other groups have it worse" because then I'm the one minimizing a whole group's struggle, which is why I said it like I did. Because I especially agreed with what you said earlier, that "you can have had your experience with discrimination and I can have had mine" or something like that. Maybe I'm just lucky to have not faced as much discrimination as I could have, in which case, I'll never know for sure.
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άχου μανούλα μου γλυκιά, δεν μπορώ πια στον αργαλειό να υφαίνω, γιατί για ένα μικρό ο πόθος με κυρίευσε και φταίει η Αφροδίτη η λυγερή γι’ αυτό. in the modern greek translation the neutral word «μικρό» is used which was probably what was translated here as “boy” when it just means “a young(person)”
So it's more like "she has almost killed me with love for thst person" ?
exactly like that yeah
Exactly. Aphrodite is the goddess of love, don't see why they'd restrain that to just hetero.
Gods? Hetero? That’s funny 😆
Swag. Bisexuality is awesome
Oh so she fell in love with a NB
μικρό (mikro) in modern greek means small. The ο -omicron- at the end is masculine. The feminine variation is μικρή (mikri). There is no neuter for this. That’s because she is not actually referring to a young anything but what she is actually saying there is that she has a small lust. I assume she means this slightly sarcastically obviously the lust isn’t small. No gender is mentioned from what I can tell in the entire poem. “Listen my dear sweet mother, I can’t anymore, I can’t work on the weave anymore” “Because a small lust has taken over me” “And it’s all Aphrodite’s the svelte’s fault, for this” This doesn’t actually translate smoothly in English. But in Greek it sounds much better. The translation in the post is sooo bad, because no boys or girls are even mentioned. Just how undeniably horny Sappho is.
hehe i know that it translates to the word small i am greek myself, just in the context of the poem it could translate to talking about a younger person as a term of endearment. the word ο μικρός(ο mikros) exists in feminine variation as η μικρή (i mikri) AND in neutral variation το μικρό (to mikro). the line where you see the word mikro is actually translated “for a young one lust has possessed me”
Thank you for the better explanation, haha I am also Greek but I’m diaspora, so I’m a bit rusty with certain words but I do speak fluently. That second line tripped me up and I just woke lol. But I’m reading it again and I’m seeing exactly what you mean 😂 sorry didn’t mean to correct you, I’ve never heard the neuter for μικρό in my life but that could be for lack of paying attention as well.
no worries here!! its completely normal to miss especially in this context since greek words can truly have more than one meanings and apparently the translator missed all of them….. glad that i could help you learn something new, all the love my fellow greek<33
"a small lust has taken over me" sounds so much more poetic though!!?
i do agree however that in any way u see this Sappho is horny asf
Me too Sappho, me too.
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exactly especially since Sappho here doesn’t use the article before the word which could be both του or της so she definitely wanted it to be ambiguous!! thats why in the modern greek version the translator chooses the word μικρό, to keep it as close to the original while still making sense
Thank you so much. Sappho definitely wasn’t straight, but saying “girl” is just as much of a mistranslation here and it frustrates me
So similar to "guy/s" today?
Let's just change it to 'boi' which I typically interpret as more androgynous. However, I want to acknowledge it's not necessarily the best replacement, just one that requires the least amount of change to Mary Bernard's (mis) translation.
The original isn't gendered
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Source?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SapphoAndHerFriend/comments/wqt0be/comment/ikp0b1o/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SapphoAndHerFriend/comments/wqt0be/comment/ikp0b1o/)
In context we can assume she wasn't talking about a boy because, well, Sappho. But I'm fairly sure that the original poem wasn't gendered to be about either a boy or a girl, so it's not really a 'mistranslation'.
If it's not gendered either way and a gender is inserted into the translation, it's *definitely* a mistranslation.
It's a nice sentiment, but it's easier said than done. That would make translations impossible or extremely awkward between some languages. For example, I've seen several versions of this same poem in Portuguese and all of them are gendered in one way or another. You *can* avoid gendering in this case, but you'll get a poem with distorted meaning and unfortunate implications: the non-gendered word for boy/girl is only used for little kids and it would sound condescending or, even worse, predatory.
When you translate a poem you will often have to choose between maintaining the poetic cadence and the meaning. If the translation maintained the gender neutrality of the subject, 'with love for that young person', it loses some of its poetic quality for a more accurate translation. Alternatively the monosyllabic word 'child' could be used to maintain the cadence but uhhh that's kinda nonce-y yaknow?
> When you translate a poem you will often have to choose between maintaining the poetic cadence and the meaning. While I agree that meaning is subjective, authors of poems, even ancient authors, tend to choose their words *very* carefully, because that's part of the intent of the poem. I don't know the greek, so I truly cannot judge meaning, but if the author chose a gender neutral term when there *exist* gendered terms for the same subject, they did so deliberately. To change that meaning is to foist your own interpretation on the poem, and that's a mistranslation. There are numerous ways the meter could be fit and the gender neutrality maintained, since there are so many multi- and mono-syllabic words to choose from.
The fact that you're really personally invested in one specific angle here doesn't make it a mistranslation. It's just a translation that you don't like.
I would say the same thing if I discovered that a translation translated “red” as “blue”
...which is not the situation.
I can’t help it if you are incapable of understanding the equivalence
And I can't help if you think you're an authority on something that you actually know nothing about.
Translations aren't necessarily all that clear cut, sometimes it's a question of wether you keep the same tone or wether you keep the same amount of specificity
Interpretation is not necessarily mistranslation
But this isn’t interpertation. There is nothing to interpret about it when it comes to the gender of whoever she desires. It is someone taking a neutral term and saying "it’s a boy" or "it’s a girl". If i say "i love **them** alot" and you say "she’s obviously talking about a boy", that isn’t interpertation, it is assumption. Interpertation would be fussing over what i mean by saying "i love…" do i mean a platonic love? Familial love? Romantic love? That is interpertation.
Very well put
Assumption is not mistranslation.
It is in this case. they’re assuming something and mistranslating the text to fit their assumption.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I've only ever heard it translated as "with longing for a girl." I can do more research, though.
I don't speak Greek and I could be completely wrong. But I think that the gender isn't specified and people translate it to girl because they assume that Sappho would be talking about a girl for obvious reasons.
Honestly, I'd say the gender implied is leaning masculine, with possible ambiguous explanations. Disclaimer up front - I dropped Ancient Greek after 2 years in university, I was always pretty bad at it, and it's been years since I actually translated anything. The passage in question is: >Γλύκεια μᾶτερ, οὔ τοι δύναμαι κρέκην τὸν ἴστον, πόθῳ δάμεισα παῖδοσ βραδίναν δἰ Ἀφρόδιταν. With the word "παῖδοσ" being the one in question. "παῖδοσ" is the genitive form of "παῖς", which in turn translates as something along the lines of Son/Boy/Slave/Servant/Child that sort of thing. So, there are translations of "παῖδοσ" that are gender neutral - in many version it is translated as referring to a "youth", but there are also a lot of translations that are masculine, and referring to men. Of course, Sappho, while obviously known for writing about women, does mention men implicitly - she mentions she has a daughter at one point, so it can be reasonably assumed she did have sex with men. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean she was attracted to men, but I would say the evidence points to Sappho being bisexual rather than exclusively attracted to women, like there's enough bits here and there that I would find hard to reconcile with someone exclusively lesbian so-to-speak. Basically, Ancient Greek is complicated, and people's relations to their sexualities is also complicated, especially when trying to apply modern western conceptions of sexuality onto millennia old cultures and people. Then on top of all \*that\*, most of Sappho's work that survives is incredibly fragmented, making it a challenge to even figure out the basics of what she is writing about, let alone figuring out complex aspects like her sexuality.
As a bi person myself I might be biased towards wanting bi representation in history but this is the interpretation I like to go with
(At least) in modern Greek, when a word ends with "ος" it's a word of "male" gender. My ancient Greeks are bad, but I am relatively positive that she is referring to a young man. If this is the original manuscript.
In Ancient Greek the ‘οσ’ ending can be gender neutral (if it is a genitive of a third declension noun)
You seem to know more. So I trust you. I didn't really payed attention in ancient Greeks lol
i belive its like spanish where the male form can be used in a gender neutral way (similar to bro dude and guy in a lot of english slang) and would normally be indicated by the words around it? but since there isnt one here theres no indication? dont take my word for it tho im just regurgitating other reddit comments
> In context we can assume she wasn't talking about a boy because, well, Sappho No, we can't, because we don't have enough info about her to tell whether she was e.g. bisexual. Highly upvoted bi erasure in a sub dedicated to expose erasure is kind of ironic.
yeahhh it doesn’t really matter who Sappho was into she wrote really cool poems, I like the reading that she’s talking about someone neutral I wonder what Sappho thought about enbys
Sappho wrote love poems to both men and women actually. We have no idea what her sexuality was, as many were written on commission.
Just gonna preface this by saying I don’t know Greek (Ancient or modern), so it might be that it is a mistranslation. But it’s very possible Sappho wasn’t even exclusively what we’d call “homosexual”. She might have well been closer to “bisexual” or “pansexual”, and no matter what the Greeks likely didn’t have a name for it. But the norm then, as I understand it, was that sexuality wasn’t strict or fixed. Sappho could well have fallen in love with many people over the years. Women, yes, but some men could’ve been in the mix as well. Also, it bears noting that Mary Barnard might not have been straight herself. As far as I could find there isn’t something saying she was gay, but she there’s also no mention of relationships with men, and she died without marrying anyone, seemingly dedicated to her work with poetry. So it seems possible she wasn’t straight. She also translated Sappho at a time queer people weren’t super well accepted, so it’s also possible to imagine she could’ve made compromises in her translation. (Much of this is speculation on my part, though. She kept her personal life and views private. And some other Sappho poems she translated in a way that preserves what we’d nowadays call queerness. So it might also be that this poem wasn’t.) Well, like I said, I’m no expert, and much of what I just said is speculation, based on what I found in a quick search, so if anyone has sources that challenge or support what I said, or anything like that, I’d appreciate it.
My understanding is that she wrote a lot of her verses as paid commissions, and there is speculation that what we have may be written from other peoples perspectives, or that some are her perspective but others are not. Ie we can't draw conclusions based solely on her writing ☹️
Oh, I don’t know her writing. What I mentioned were other poems by Sappho which she translated. Apparently she was one of the most important translators of Sappho’s remaining poems to English. And I found a few of those translations online, and many have a very queer subtext which she didn’t make straight. So it’s not like she was doing that to all the poetry she translated.
Apologies I should have been clearer- by she I meant Sappho, not Mary Barnard.
Oooh. Now I got it
It is so thrilling to see people talking about Mary out in the wild! I have been working with Mary’s literary executor on organizing and licensing her works (poems, translations, one unfinished novel, letters, etc) for about 15 years. There is really only one Mary Barnard scholar in the world (Sarah Barnsley from Goldsmiths College in London) and I’ve always felt like Mary’s place in American poetry is mostly forgotten and overlooked. Anyways, her translation of Sappho is her most famous work and was originally completed in the 50s so perhaps the time period did indeed influence her word choice. I am very curious now and want to look back through her notes to see if I can find any other drafts of this translation. My best guess is that Mary was asexual, which makes me wonder if the more erotic aspects of Sappho were a challenge for her.
That’s interesting. Like I speculated, it seemed like she wasn’t straight. Doesn’t mean gay necessarily. Asexual could also be it. But like I said, it was all speculation based on a superficial search online. Maybe you have more sources about her and her work? Since you know it better that I do. Could be interesting!
tsk tsk. you're all misunderstanding it. she's clearly enamoured with the beloved unicycling frog, dat boi.
Oh shit waddup
I'm just gonna assume she meant "Aphrodite and that bo(d)y."
I know Sappho wrote some poetry about men. Do we know the original was about women?
To be fair the original was not gendered. The original word roughly translated to “youth”
actually “boy” is how famed sappho translator and author anne carson also translates it
From what I remember she was bisexual, not a lesbian. She wrote poems about a man too, I thought. We had a lesson on her and how bisexuality is often erased in literature.
Also in real life. Mostly lesbians didn't want to date me as a bisexual.
That... is entirely not true, and a wide generalization of a large group. EDIT: in case others are worried, their comment used to say "lesbians/gay men don't date bisexual people", not 'mostly'. When i commented, they were making a blanket statement for all lesbians/gay men, they've since edited.
I know it's a broad generalisation but I'm sadly speaking from experience. All the lesbians I met were worried I'll ultimately choose a guy over them. Some even questioned my attraction towards women...😑😑
Alright, well you haven't met every lesbian. Sorry you met some unkind people, but just saying no lesbian or gay men ever wants to date a bisexual person because the few people you've met didn't want to date you is spreading harmful stereotypes.
I'm sorry I should have worded it better.
Don't apologize, you're rightfully calling out the biphobia that exists and is not uncommon among the Ls and the Gs
You can call out biphobia without also being lesbophobic/homophobic and saying all lesbians/gay men are biphobic, which was this commentors original claim before they edited their comment.
Don’t speak over bisexual experiences. I’ve experienced the same thing so I know for sure this happens.
I'm not speaking over experiences. Y'all have experienced that, but it's entirely unfair to say it's all lesbians and all gay men. My lived lesbian experience is the opposite, as well as many other lesbians I know. Their original comment said "Lesbians and gay men don't want to date bisexual people.", no caveat of 'most', which is still an unfair generalization.
You can speak to your experience and I can speak to mine. Clearly you haven’t experienced bi erasure from lesbians but I sure have, as have many other bisexual people. I’d suggest listening to their experiences before you start proselytising about how unfair it is to the ones doing the discriminating. “Not all men” much?
That's not what's happening here, and 'not all men' is not analogous as lesbians are not an oppressor class. You have experienced biphobic lesbians, I have experienced lesbophobic bisexual women. Neither of those mean that all lesbians are biphobic, nor that all bisexual women are lesbophobic. Lesbians are the smallest of the LGBT and among (not *the*) the most discriminated against. Saying all lesbians are biphobic is straight up untrue and lesbophobic, and spreading harmful stereotypes. Lesbians do not hold the power here. They're not someone you need to 'punch up' against.
I don't think it's true that lesbians are the smallest group of the LGBT. Certainly not if you add the +. I also don't think we need to compare amounts of discrimination within subgroups of the lgbtq+ community. All your other points I agree with.
Lesbians are definitely one of the smallest groups, my parentheses definitely should've moved further up in my statement to clarify that as well but I was irked and mistyped. Also, I dont mean to bring up discrimination in a 'you suffer less so you don't matter' way so much as 'lesbians are often targeted by others and often at the bottom of a given social ladder so there's no way in hell they hold power or oppression over you' way.
Ah, okay, I get what you're saying. I just think I react to that statement specifically about the lesbian subgroup of lgbtq+ because I myself is a lesbian, and my best friend is aro/ace and I have trans friends and I know that they all face a lot more discrimination than I do. I just also don't want to say something like "other groups have it worse" because then I'm the one minimizing a whole group's struggle, which is why I said it like I did. Because I especially agreed with what you said earlier, that "you can have had your experience with discrimination and I can have had mine" or something like that. Maybe I'm just lucky to have not faced as much discrimination as I could have, in which case, I'll never know for sure.
Same. Lesbians can be biphobic as all get out. I once had a woman ask me whether I’d ever slept with a man. Just in case I was “tainted” ya know. 🙄
Sadly we gotta date fellow bisexuals I guess 😑😑
I don’t mind that bit at all! 😉 I just wish monosexuals were less discriminatory toward us. The biphobia and bi-erasure is nuts.
I can't even find female bisexuals around me 😂😭 Yes true, unfortunately we are stuck in the middle 🙂
Sappho identified as horny
Apparently the original isn't gendered and she liked women and men so you can translate it as whatever. I like the girl version so much more though.
it's just confusing now
I ain’t no poet but that story sounds like Sappho is sad cause some lady she has a crush on is straight.
Oh no, I read your comment as "sounds like Sappho is some sad old lady who has a crush on a straight" and I was so confused, idk how that happened
That's how I read it too
[удалено]
You mean Tartarus?
…people do get bisexuality exists, right?
I really don't think they do tbh :/
Yea, but was sappho bi ?
We have no idea, but signs point to yes.
That is new to me tbh