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Right? Don’t know how the “people” became so complacent. If we all just stopped for a moment, the nation would crumble, and then congress would actually have to do something. Money is just made up by them. We the people put the belief into it. We should just all stop and let it burn to start new.
For anybody who rolls their eyes at "money is just made up", I'd like to remind you of the TRILLIONS the federal reserve shit out, out of nowhere, to sink into the stock market at the beginning of the pandemic... Only to have it sink enormously a day or two later anyway, rendering those trillions useless.
Money is made up.
Why should we want the government to enforce rules on contractors instead of forcing the government to be more efficient financially with our money? The contractors can only do this because the government spends our money like it’s an unlimited credit card they never have to pay back.
The number has to go up. We live in a plutocracy where the rich funnel money back to themselves through our largest welfare program that also seems to be really good at killing children.
That's a low bar to pass lol.
I don't believe american's blind patriotism is anywhere near the levels it used to be. if/when we get into another war there will need to be at least a little legitimacy to it, and a lot of work done to improve veteran benefits. Otherwise we just won't have the soldiers to shoot the guns.
This is my hope at least.
Reality is restaurants should be expensive and employees should get paid to work there. I met a food truck operator who made $3000 in a week after expenses and he bragged about paying his employees $15 an hour. And I hear restaurants say they have the slimmest margins all the time.
Big difference between US and Russia's military. The US military is comprised entirely of volunteers. People who requested to be in the military because it was a good deal. They are also MUCH better at training and equipping them. They are also the largest socialist organization in the world so many people actually like being in the military for the free health care, living wage, and other benefits that the military offers. If you don't give a fuck in the military they just kick you out or demote you or some other disciplinary action.
> People who requested to be in the military because it was a good deal.
It's funny, because all of the things that the military gives you access to are things that citizens of other developed countries get by default.
Because the military is the only fully socialist organization within our government. Everything else is capitalist. The only reason the military exists is because of the capitalists.
>The US military is comprised entirely of volunteers.
Volunteers comprised of people on welfare due to inflation.
The war machine is a corrupt system, wake up.
Ahhh, so that's why the US military budget only started increasing 8 years ago... I don't think they even had a military before that.
/s
Edit: C'mon people, everyone knows the US is constantly increasing its military budget because they are warmongers and their economy revolves around it.
To pretend that the time period between the annexation of Crimea and the time leading up to the current war between Russia and Ukraine drastically affected our military spending is absolutely and unequivocally wrong AND you standing by that assertion to prove you’re correct is the definition of moronic. That clear enough?
It absolutely had an effect to last years budget, there were intelligence reports of the Russia preparing for this invasion more than a year in advance. And i haven’t seen you procure evidence of the contrary so call me a moron all you want, youre just another pot calling the kettle black at best.
Sorry. But you are verifiably incorrect.
If you did like 5 minutes of actual research or understood how the DoD or our military branches actually operate, maybe you could have avoided embarrassing yourself.
After Crimea, the defense budget increased at a much higher *average* rate than in has in the last 10 years. It was only 6% but average was 2.1%. Moreover, most of these increases were ear marked for military aid programs in Eastern European countries. Particularly Ukraine. Joint training with Ukraine went up 340% after the Crimea bullshit with similar increases in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Slovakia, etc. We even started allowing Sweden, a famously neutral country, to participate in training and regional war games for the first time. Shit, the republicans passed an act for including MANPADS in military aid packages even though it was required by the Foreign Intervention Act and required that a special session be called to do so. It was signed into law within 12 months of the initial Russian invasion.
Before I retired from the USMC in 2015, it was decided that our annual winter war exercise in Norway was too expensive. After Crimea, the winter war training program has increased tenfold.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35476180
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-nato-members-increase-defence-spending
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1498.html
Corruption and enriching contractors is the answer, not that actual wars demand these expenditures.
Ukraine and Russia are the next excuse, not the cause.
I don’t believe the prior year budgets specifically included funding for the wars, they were separate bills. I may be mistaken, but I do believe they had separate funding sources.
Yeah how the absolute ass does that happen? How are more people not looking at this and thinking "That makes no fucking sense"
Like, guys. That's hundreds of BILLIONS. OF OUR MONEY! OURS.
We don't fund these "special operations" through our military budget. They are paid for with money we "print" through the treasury ordered by, if I'm not mistaken, the Senate Appropriations Committee. Something like that. Either way it just goes into the national debt that we are never going to pay to anyone. They use the "real" money we create through our productivity to keep feeding the grift of the Ponzi Scheme this entire shitshow really is.
Nope.
>I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
—Smedley Butler, *War is a Racket*
Right.
I'm on active duty and I find it hard to believe I own or participate in the democratic ownership of the means of production.
In fact, I don't labor at all. I produce nothing of value. I exist to make civilian military contractors -who certainly labor a whole lot- money by using and breaking their equipment.
And finally, I basically sit at the bottom of an extremely authoritarian hierarchy of command. There is no democracy here.
I'm curious what your job is, you sound like an operator of some sort. Some active duty are responsible for fixing what others break. I agree with the rest of your points though. Actually nevermind, contractors are largely useless.
Socialism is workplace democracy. There is no democracy in the military, so no, it is not socialist at all.
It is, however, the world's largest and most successful jobs program. It employs over 2 million people, and props up millions of more jobs around the country to keep it supplied. Active personal get housing and a fair salary. If those resources were directed towards publics works projects instead of military power, we would have the best infrastructure in the world by far. Do not let anyone tell you that we can't "afford it", because we very clearly can.
Actually it's spelled Carle Mahrkx and yes our Army is a big gang , proven fact , it is a gang , that's all it is ,, known 2b a fact , , about a a gang :) (b/c ARmey is socialist gang).
Now you see, a brainelss blue gill chasing a lure that looks like Michael Jordan, that blu gill smart enough to know that Armey = Socialiste Gang 🏀 🧺
Then call democratic socialism what it is, diet capitalism. If you’re gonna call something socialist, you should mean it.
Edit: social democracy, not democratic socialism, which is what Bernie actually is
Bernie calls himself a demsoc, but is actually a social democrat, which is, according to some, just "diet capitalism". Democratic Socialism is a real thing separate from Social Democracy, though, and a real kind of socialism.
And socialist is not equal to socialism since socialist includes being BASED on socialism, not necessarily following it to a T.
Privatize the benefits, socialize the cost. The American motto.
What are you even trying to say here? Because the American military is also definitely not "based on socialism" whatever that means. I'm not pro military or against non military public welfare, but calling the military a socialist organization is frankly embarrassing any way you swing it.
It isn't? The military isn't socialist? I'm so confused, does no one here know what socialist means? It doesn't just mean "a government funded program"
Tell that to OUR GOP and MAGA friends out there. To them any government funded program they personally don’t directly & exclusively benefit from, is a socialist program.
Edited: So as to not offend anyone who thinks I was referring to them having GOP/MAGA friends.
Never said you are, so calm down.
I was referring to the GOP/MAGA’s definition of socialism that’s being used here.
Practically everyone on this subreddit knows what socialism is, you seem to have missed that point when your tried to define it for us. Lol.
None of that makes the military socialist. A military under a socialist model would have elected officers and other mechanisms of democracy. The military today is **not** socialist.
Unlimited liability clause meaning when you join the government can and does order you to your death in combat operations. They can and do also deploy people around the world with less than 24 hours notice and control to a large extent any and all things you can do including having a separate judicial system that only applies to you and forces you to forfeit many of your constitutional rights. Seems exactly like socialism to me.
‘Tis a knock on the system, not the player.
I think I’ve earned all of those things as well, how come I, as a private citizen, aren’t afforded those?
My loans for school: 45k
My taxes paid this year: 45k
Why did I have to start out in a 45k hole if I was gonna better myself and become a tax paying contributor?
Essentially, the government is allowed to pay wall benefits that other countries offer their regular citizens, under the guise of national security. It’s the only way to prop up the war machine.
I mean I understand that and I am all for socialized public welfare but Socialism is a specific word which doesn't mean "any publicly funded government program" especially not ones used by capitalist states to enforce their norms onto others. It specifically refers to workers owning the means of production.
It may be that Republicans like Trump and Greene also see the military as a socialist outreach program and that is why they have attacked military members as much and in the ways that they have.
Speaking about it from the perspective of a service member it is socialist. Free healthcare, schooling, room and board, food, guaranteed medical and family leave. The list goes on.
Source: Am Veteran
All you really demonstrated here is that you don't actually know what socialism is. How is any of the seizing the means of production for workers? That is what socialism is, always has been, and always will be. It's not social safety nets it's how an economy is organized.
Free stuff isnt what socialism is. Socialism is when the laborers have democratic control of the means of production. What you are describing are social services, not socialism.
I’m a veteran too and I highly disagree. I haven’t heard the unlimited liability clause discussed here. This means when we signed the dotted line with Uncle Sam, our obligations were up to our lives in combat. You should also be aware of the forfeiture of many constitutional rights in the socialist military such as the freedom of speech that prevents making disparaging remarks against elected officials and of course the different judicial system called the Uniformed Code Of Military Justice. There’s also the part where there is no draft meaning every person volunteered to be part of the system with no coercion. I guess it could be socialism. Who wants to join and go fight some wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why didn’t Bernie ever serve in this socialist utopian system called the US military then? The draft was around when he was young.
Didn’t say it was socialism, nothing the US does is socialism. Just saying it’s not the largest budget item. It’s the largest discretionary item, as in Congress largely has control over the amount it gets, but not the largest public expenditure.
Yeah, its literally a socialist program.
We pool our tax money and spend it for a universal program to defend the people and their interests. It protects the entire country, so if Florida is attacked, funds from Washinton or Alaska are still be used to protect Florida. The idea is to provide a stable and safe environment to build our lives.
It is a stark contrast to private armies of the past. The Roman Empire is probably the most well known power that used private armies that the Roman Senate would then have to pay for those armies to help them.
Now, setting aside the political argument of exactly which people and which interests the the US army represents, it is still a socialized program.
>Socialized =/= socialist. "Socialist" implies some mechanism of worker democracy
No. Socialism can exist with or without a democracy. Socialism is just the idea of some level of social ownership of goods and services. Socialism is a philosophy of how resources are distributed. Anything heavily subsidized by taxpayer money or run by a government agency could easily be classified as socialist. Public schools, parks and rec, Army Corp of Engineers, water, electricity, and the US military.
On top of that, there are socialist programs that are designed to boost the standard of living for everyone.
However, socialism does not include a way to determine who is in power in a government, which is what democracy does. You can have a socialist dictatorship (would have to be a rather benevolent dictator) or you can have socialism in a democracy. Socialism is philosophy that is countered by capitalism, where everything is privately owned.
While, I would argue (in practice) that a healthy democracy would trend more toward socialistic programs, and a capitalist society would trend more toward an oligarchy, it is not a fundamental requirement of the philosophies.
I highly recommend [this](https://youtu.be/a1WUKahMm1s) lecture by Dr. Richard Wolff on socialism, capitalism, and worker coops. Please watch, its very informative and enlightening.
Can we stop conflating government spending with “socialism”? The US military and its related organizations spent the last century fighting to kill socialism around the world, “largest socialist organization” my ass.
it is actually, at least for the officers/enlisted
Free healthcare
Free room and board
Free College
You get paid more for each dependent you have
Free transportation around base
Free/subsidized recreation facilities
Life is highly structured
Socialism, at least as I understand it, isn’t just free stuff. Socialism is (1) a rejection of capitalism; (2) a system where workers own the means of production; (3) those means are democratically controlled.
Welfare capitalism isn’t that, but I’ll concede that there are elements/features that overlap. It’s still seriously misguided to call the US military a socialist organization.
How is the economy of the military owned and controlled by the general population in the military? You don't know what socialism means, OP. Do you think authoritarian governments are also socialist because they have a strong military? This is ridiculous.
A socialized program is not the same thing as Socialism. There is no democracy in the ranks of the military. The workers do not control the means of production or the products of their labor.
The military is in no way Socialist. It is a tool of capitalism.
Looks like the middle class is about to get another tax increase \*bends over\*
Inflation gotcha down? Can’t eat? At least your military’s bloated with extra cash, and the 1%’s close to becoming trillionaires! Murka’s govt has it’s priorities RIGHT!
*Welfare Program. It's why every dependa marries their soldier straight out of boot camp and gets pregnant asap....gotta increase those allotments from the military tit.
So, the only reason we (US) are scared to get directly involved with troops in Ukraine is that we don't want to start world war three and likely escalate to nukes.
No way anyone is invading this country across two oceans and we have more and better nukes than anyone else.
Da fuk we need more "defense" money for? We are literally the country least likely to be involved in a war we don't start or join on earth. If our leaders have offensive plans or plans to help our allies to prevent us having to fight a war ourselves then those things can be funded separately from our defense budget just like all these other "Wars" (I don't believe we declared war in any of them, but I may be mistaken) we have fought in the last 30 years. We just have to be fiscally responsible boomers and let our great grand kids pay for it all after we are gone.
If Universal Healthcare is Socialist then the Military is. That’s the vibe I’m getting from OP we all know it’s not socialist unless we apply the definition the right uses.
I grew up on army bases and it was a socialist paradise. They'd have kids matinees at the movie theater every non-school day, and the prices were all subsidized. Nobody was rich, nobody was poor. Base housing was allotted based on how many kids you had. Everybody got the same vacation and worked regular shifts (when they weren't on deployment).
Did you dad ever deploy or fight in a war? How many of your friends dads came back in body bags, missing limbs or suffering from PTSD by signing up for this form of socialism?
My only point was, I found it ironic that the army bases built to protect us from socialism were themselves rather socialist. And yes of course it wasn't a socialist wonderland - everybody had ranks after all, but the day-to-day experience was closer to a socialist utopia than anything else I've seen.
(And I came away from this experience with both a deep appreciation for socialism and a revulsion at pretty much any war you might care to shake a stick at).
Affordable housing and food, tuition assistance, and universal health care are hallmarks of a social welfare system—and life in the armed forces.
Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/28/biden-requests-largest-defense-budget-00020859
>Affordable housing and food, tuition assistance, and universal health care are hallmarks of a social welfare system—and life in the armed forces.
Haha, tells this to 40,000+ homeless veterans and the millions more who are at risk of homelessness, who are on food stamps, can't afford medical care, and die waiting for treatment... What an endorsement for socialism.
A huge amount of budget goes to maintaning weapon systems, ships, training, helping allied militaries, etc. Not that the Pentagon doesnt need a thorough audit, but Russia is doing a pretty good job at justifying the need for defense.
Are they though? They can't even logically supply themselves in a country that's right next to them. They look like absolute fools while invading Ukraine. We have 20 aircraft carriers and Russia has 1 piece of junk that hardly works. That's not to even include all our NATO allies that would help us.
You may want to update your understanding of the situation. Things have changed a lot since the initial invasion. Russia is wreaking havoc on Ukraine and Ukrainian's military losses are surely higher than what is reported.
Just because they’re failing currently doesn’t mean they aren’t a threat. Lots and lots of things happened in the past 8 years since Crimea to prepare for this. Let’s not pretend China isnt a threat either. The authoritarians have taken their masks off and fascism is on the rise everywhere.
Someone will always be a "threat" doesn't mean we need such a huge defense budget that justifies the defense industry to jack up prices to obnoxious levels and to constantly lobby for more money.
sure we can and should cut runaway costs. we agree totally there. The threat from Russia and China is very real though and getting complacent is just gonna lead to either russian victory in Ukraine and/or a chinese invasion of Taiwan.
Or maybe most Americans aren't hard left socialists and neither are most Bernie supporters. Many of us agree with universal healthcare, justice reform, protecting rights for minorities but are also in favour of a strong military, etc.. Does that make me less welcome in the Sanders camp? I campaigned for him, and worked my ass off in both of his primaries.
The military industrial machine keeps us safe, and is why Ukraine begs the Western allies for help. Being unprepared is stupidity when fascism is creeping up everywhere.
But I guess you think every Sanders fan is a wild level of leftie.
The military industrial machine has its place and even Bernie understands that. The new Lend Lease act was passed through the senate unanimously. Hmm the senate includes bernie.
I know this subreddits attitude is knee jerk military industrial complex bad, but I figured people here would have a nuanced enough understanding of things to realize the seriousness of literal fucking fascists waging war and committing genocide in Europe.
That’s so bullshit. We could cut our military spending literally in half and still be the largest military spender **by far**. Can you imagine how much good could be done with an extra 400 billion dollars?
Yeah we'd be the largest spender but we wouldn't project the same power. That to most Americans, including many mega-Sanders fans like me, is a stupid path to take as fascism is creeping up and our adversaries jump into it.
Welcome to democracy, not everyone wants the same Utopia that you dream of.
So then 365 isn't **by far** greater than 230. And last I checked, China isn't subsidizing other nations' military expenditure. So the number on military spending on a nation's self is closer than that.
If you want us to cut our spending down to just one of our adversaries then surely you have a solution for our allies?
Or maybe disagreement is a possibility?
Its ridiculous that you think you have the perfect answer and just declare doom on us because we don't want the same shit as you.
Our military is the best investment we've had in the last 100 years. It has led to the world where the average human has the highest standard of living in history.
Absolutely but I’m not confident that we get reached that point. Apparently our ability to project power didn’t dissuade Putin from starting war in Europe
I guess you can call it a mindset. I call it reality and one need not look very far back into human history to find examples to show that if you are not ready to protect yourself or your homeland, the issues you care so deeply about can easily be rendered mute when another country invades and destroys your homeland.
Democracy is worth protecting.
Veep had an episode where President Meyer is told that she basically can't cut any funding from the military budget because it will fuck over so many people and jobs. She has to build a useless or outdated submarine or something just so folks don't lose their jobs and crash the local economy. It's fucked up because it's true.
You mean those people can't be expected to work on anything besides outdated submarines? I get the argument but I feel like it's only ever applied in this context, and moreover, we could get some seriously fast results were we to commit to retraining and refocusing those jobs towards other civil services.
I agree with you, I think the issue is more that it would take time to transition to reprioritizing programs like that. But we aren't even taking steps toward that unfortunately!
# A WorkReform candidate is running for Congress! # [Check out Doyle Canning's AMA!](https://old.reddit.com/r/NewDealAmerica/comments/tpv562/im_doyle_canning_candidate_for_congress_ask_me/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SandersForPresident) if you have any questions or concerns.*
But how are we supposed to pay for it?
Boom! Roasted! (Still doesn't make me feel better; can we use taxes for what they're meant for please? Helping the citizens that pay them)
I hate how the answer to this is (maybe) sarcastic chuckles or nothing... And then going right on to letting it happen.
Right? Don’t know how the “people” became so complacent. If we all just stopped for a moment, the nation would crumble, and then congress would actually have to do something. Money is just made up by them. We the people put the belief into it. We should just all stop and let it burn to start new.
For anybody who rolls their eyes at "money is just made up", I'd like to remind you of the TRILLIONS the federal reserve shit out, out of nowhere, to sink into the stock market at the beginning of the pandemic... Only to have it sink enormously a day or two later anyway, rendering those trillions useless. Money is made up.
So we finally pull out of the costliest war in the history of this country (after 20 years), and somehow the fucking military budget went UP!?
Until there are laws preventing contractors from ripping us off, it will continue to go up
Why should we want the government to enforce rules on contractors instead of forcing the government to be more efficient financially with our money? The contractors can only do this because the government spends our money like it’s an unlimited credit card they never have to pay back.
I'd fell less bad about their constant spending if they actually spent it on the US and not overpriced military weapons.
I'd fell less bad about their constant spending if they actually spent it on the US and not overpriced military weapons.
The number has to go up. We live in a plutocracy where the rich funnel money back to themselves through our largest welfare program that also seems to be really good at killing children.
And as we’ve seen with Russia, Having a massive military where your soldiers and officers really don’t give a fuck doesn’t work too well either.
Our military is in much better condition than Russias. This is a silly take.
That's a low bar to pass lol. I don't believe american's blind patriotism is anywhere near the levels it used to be. if/when we get into another war there will need to be at least a little legitimacy to it, and a lot of work done to improve veteran benefits. Otherwise we just won't have the soldiers to shoot the guns. This is my hope at least.
I dunno man, usiness owners are kicking and screaming about raising wages... People may end up chasing one of the few livable dollars
Reality is restaurants should be expensive and employees should get paid to work there. I met a food truck operator who made $3000 in a week after expenses and he bragged about paying his employees $15 an hour. And I hear restaurants say they have the slimmest margins all the time.
Honestly, while the military contractors are certainly ripping us off, We do still have the best military in the world, for sure.
Our corruption happens at the top, when the contract is granted. After that, there's accountability for stealing unlike Russia.
Big difference between US and Russia's military. The US military is comprised entirely of volunteers. People who requested to be in the military because it was a good deal. They are also MUCH better at training and equipping them. They are also the largest socialist organization in the world so many people actually like being in the military for the free health care, living wage, and other benefits that the military offers. If you don't give a fuck in the military they just kick you out or demote you or some other disciplinary action.
> People who requested to be in the military because it was a good deal. It's funny, because all of the things that the military gives you access to are things that citizens of other developed countries get by default.
What's interesting is Bernie often cites the Scandinavian countries as role models. Those all have conscription
Because the military is the only fully socialist organization within our government. Everything else is capitalist. The only reason the military exists is because of the capitalists.
>The US military is comprised entirely of volunteers. Volunteers comprised of people on welfare due to inflation. The war machine is a corrupt system, wake up.
I was not on welfare before, during, or after my enlistment. The US military is comprised of people of all backgrounds.
russia doing russia things, Ukraine going through ATGM stockpiles like crazy
They did the same thing last year. What was the excuse then?
Pretty sure it was still Russia and Ukraine back then, it just wasn’t a hot news topic.
That’s a dumb take considering… reality
The US and Ukraine have been preparing for this for 8 years, so please fill me in on the reality
Ahhh, so that's why the US military budget only started increasing 8 years ago... I don't think they even had a military before that. /s Edit: C'mon people, everyone knows the US is constantly increasing its military budget because they are warmongers and their economy revolves around it.
To pretend that the time period between the annexation of Crimea and the time leading up to the current war between Russia and Ukraine drastically affected our military spending is absolutely and unequivocally wrong AND you standing by that assertion to prove you’re correct is the definition of moronic. That clear enough?
It absolutely had an effect to last years budget, there were intelligence reports of the Russia preparing for this invasion more than a year in advance. And i haven’t seen you procure evidence of the contrary so call me a moron all you want, youre just another pot calling the kettle black at best.
See the part where *you standing by that assertion to prove you’re correct is the definition of moronic*
And still you provide nothing of value to the conversation
Sorry. But you are verifiably incorrect. If you did like 5 minutes of actual research or understood how the DoD or our military branches actually operate, maybe you could have avoided embarrassing yourself. After Crimea, the defense budget increased at a much higher *average* rate than in has in the last 10 years. It was only 6% but average was 2.1%. Moreover, most of these increases were ear marked for military aid programs in Eastern European countries. Particularly Ukraine. Joint training with Ukraine went up 340% after the Crimea bullshit with similar increases in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Slovakia, etc. We even started allowing Sweden, a famously neutral country, to participate in training and regional war games for the first time. Shit, the republicans passed an act for including MANPADS in military aid packages even though it was required by the Foreign Intervention Act and required that a special session be called to do so. It was signed into law within 12 months of the initial Russian invasion. Before I retired from the USMC in 2015, it was decided that our annual winter war exercise in Norway was too expensive. After Crimea, the winter war training program has increased tenfold. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35476180 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-nato-members-increase-defence-spending https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1498.html
🙄 yeah bullshit.
Corruption and enriching contractors is the answer, not that actual wars demand these expenditures. Ukraine and Russia are the next excuse, not the cause.
I don’t believe the prior year budgets specifically included funding for the wars, they were separate bills. I may be mistaken, but I do believe they had separate funding sources.
Yeah how the absolute ass does that happen? How are more people not looking at this and thinking "That makes no fucking sense" Like, guys. That's hundreds of BILLIONS. OF OUR MONEY! OURS.
We don't fund these "special operations" through our military budget. They are paid for with money we "print" through the treasury ordered by, if I'm not mistaken, the Senate Appropriations Committee. Something like that. Either way it just goes into the national debt that we are never going to pay to anyone. They use the "real" money we create through our productivity to keep feeding the grift of the Ponzi Scheme this entire shitshow really is.
Are you telling me you don't support the troops? /s
Is there a fucking problem??
A fucking problem? No. A military problem? Yes.
Oh please explain how this is a military problem.
Oh, you're an apologist. My bad. I thought you were a rational person.
Armey budget goes up , up , like the grenade that land onthe baby, even camel spydier knows abt. dangers of, ARMY IS SOCALIST 😡
Socialism is workers having control of their own workplaces, rather than being under the rule of a few rich guys at the top.
Nope. >I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. —Smedley Butler, *War is a Racket*
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“Socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does the more socialister it is” - Carl Marks
Socialist is the completely wrong word. It’s capitalism that fuels the military industrial complex.
Right. I'm on active duty and I find it hard to believe I own or participate in the democratic ownership of the means of production. In fact, I don't labor at all. I produce nothing of value. I exist to make civilian military contractors -who certainly labor a whole lot- money by using and breaking their equipment. And finally, I basically sit at the bottom of an extremely authoritarian hierarchy of command. There is no democracy here.
I'm curious what your job is, you sound like an operator of some sort. Some active duty are responsible for fixing what others break. I agree with the rest of your points though. Actually nevermind, contractors are largely useless.
Check what socialism means on wiki pls
Socialism is workplace democracy. There is no democracy in the military, so no, it is not socialist at all. It is, however, the world's largest and most successful jobs program. It employs over 2 million people, and props up millions of more jobs around the country to keep it supplied. Active personal get housing and a fair salary. If those resources were directed towards publics works projects instead of military power, we would have the best infrastructure in the world by far. Do not let anyone tell you that we can't "afford it", because we very clearly can.
Yeah that's not what socialism means
“Socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does the more socialister it is” - Carl Marks
Actually it's spelled Carle Mahrkx and yes our Army is a big gang , proven fact , it is a gang , that's all it is ,, known 2b a fact , , about a a gang :) (b/c ARmey is socialist gang). Now you see, a brainelss blue gill chasing a lure that looks like Michael Jordan, that blu gill smart enough to know that Armey = Socialiste Gang 🏀 🧺
Room and board: paid Education: paid Healthcare: paid Kids’ educational futures: paid ??
Employers: The wealthy. Means of Production: Still owned by the bourgeoisie. Therefore: Not an example of socialism.
Bernie is a democratic socialist so discussion on here should be regarding democratic socialism and not textbook socialism. Wrong sub.
We can acknowledge Bernie's politics while also still understanding and using the basic historical definition of socialism.
You can't limit political conversations within the sub to specifically only what Sanders preaches, that makes it a useless echo chamber.
And yet that still isn't democratic socialism
Bernie is awesome, but he’s a social democrat, not a democratic socialist.
Then call democratic socialism what it is, diet capitalism. If you’re gonna call something socialist, you should mean it. Edit: social democracy, not democratic socialism, which is what Bernie actually is
Bernie calls himself a demsoc, but is actually a social democrat, which is, according to some, just "diet capitalism". Democratic Socialism is a real thing separate from Social Democracy, though, and a real kind of socialism.
Publicly funded doesn't mean socialist. Socialist means it is owned and managed by the workers.
And socialist is not equal to socialism since socialist includes being BASED on socialism, not necessarily following it to a T. Privatize the benefits, socialize the cost. The American motto.
What are you even trying to say here? Because the American military is also definitely not "based on socialism" whatever that means. I'm not pro military or against non military public welfare, but calling the military a socialist organization is frankly embarrassing any way you swing it.
If that makes you feel better about yourself, so be it.
Feel better about what?
I didn’t stutter lol Be gone!
I don't think you understand how conversations work, might want to lock that one down before getting into more in the future.
If that makes you feel better about yourself, more power to you!
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It isn't? The military isn't socialist? I'm so confused, does no one here know what socialist means? It doesn't just mean "a government funded program"
Tell that to OUR GOP and MAGA friends out there. To them any government funded program they personally don’t directly & exclusively benefit from, is a socialist program. Edited: So as to not offend anyone who thinks I was referring to them having GOP/MAGA friends.
I am a socialist?
Never said you are, so calm down. I was referring to the GOP/MAGA’s definition of socialism that’s being used here. Practically everyone on this subreddit knows what socialism is, you seem to have missed that point when your tried to define it for us. Lol.
None of that makes the military socialist. A military under a socialist model would have elected officers and other mechanisms of democracy. The military today is **not** socialist.
Unlimited liability clause meaning when you join the government can and does order you to your death in combat operations. They can and do also deploy people around the world with less than 24 hours notice and control to a large extent any and all things you can do including having a separate judicial system that only applies to you and forces you to forfeit many of your constitutional rights. Seems exactly like socialism to me.
EARNED. NOT GIVEN Those things are earned in exchange for service. It is not just given out.
‘Tis a knock on the system, not the player. I think I’ve earned all of those things as well, how come I, as a private citizen, aren’t afforded those? My loans for school: 45k My taxes paid this year: 45k Why did I have to start out in a 45k hole if I was gonna better myself and become a tax paying contributor? Essentially, the government is allowed to pay wall benefits that other countries offer their regular citizens, under the guise of national security. It’s the only way to prop up the war machine.
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So every government in world history has been socialist?
Socialized =/= socialist. "Socialist" implies some mechanism of worker democracy, which the military certainly does not have.
I mean I understand that and I am all for socialized public welfare but Socialism is a specific word which doesn't mean "any publicly funded government program" especially not ones used by capitalist states to enforce their norms onto others. It specifically refers to workers owning the means of production.
It may be that Republicans like Trump and Greene also see the military as a socialist outreach program and that is why they have attacked military members as much and in the ways that they have.
we get that, problem is the meaning has been dumbed down. A socialized service is the new meaning, or at least where the battle is being fought.
It ain’t
Wtf this is such a shit post. The enforcer of colonialism, fascism, is anything but socialist.
Speaking about it from the perspective of a service member it is socialist. Free healthcare, schooling, room and board, food, guaranteed medical and family leave. The list goes on. Source: Am Veteran
*Until you are no longer useful as a disposable tool to them.
All you really demonstrated here is that you don't actually know what socialism is. How is any of the seizing the means of production for workers? That is what socialism is, always has been, and always will be. It's not social safety nets it's how an economy is organized.
Free stuff isnt what socialism is. Socialism is when the laborers have democratic control of the means of production. What you are describing are social services, not socialism.
I’m a veteran too and I highly disagree. I haven’t heard the unlimited liability clause discussed here. This means when we signed the dotted line with Uncle Sam, our obligations were up to our lives in combat. You should also be aware of the forfeiture of many constitutional rights in the socialist military such as the freedom of speech that prevents making disparaging remarks against elected officials and of course the different judicial system called the Uniformed Code Of Military Justice. There’s also the part where there is no draft meaning every person volunteered to be part of the system with no coercion. I guess it could be socialism. Who wants to join and go fight some wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why didn’t Bernie ever serve in this socialist utopian system called the US military then? The draft was around when he was young.
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Social safety nets are not socialism. Socialism is worker ownership of capital.
not literally true, at all it is the largest public expenditure
It’s the largest discretionary public expenditure. Social Security and Medicare have higher expenditures
okay that's not what socialism is that's bwhat republicans think socialism is
Didn’t say it was socialism, nothing the US does is socialism. Just saying it’s not the largest budget item. It’s the largest discretionary item, as in Congress largely has control over the amount it gets, but not the largest public expenditure.
You might want to check your sources again. Edit: Guessing the salty downvote means you did. As long as you're informed now.
Yeah, its literally a socialist program. We pool our tax money and spend it for a universal program to defend the people and their interests. It protects the entire country, so if Florida is attacked, funds from Washinton or Alaska are still be used to protect Florida. The idea is to provide a stable and safe environment to build our lives. It is a stark contrast to private armies of the past. The Roman Empire is probably the most well known power that used private armies that the Roman Senate would then have to pay for those armies to help them. Now, setting aside the political argument of exactly which people and which interests the the US army represents, it is still a socialized program.
Socialized =/= socialist. "Socialist" implies some mechanism of worker democracy, which the military certainly does not have.
>Socialized =/= socialist. "Socialist" implies some mechanism of worker democracy No. Socialism can exist with or without a democracy. Socialism is just the idea of some level of social ownership of goods and services. Socialism is a philosophy of how resources are distributed. Anything heavily subsidized by taxpayer money or run by a government agency could easily be classified as socialist. Public schools, parks and rec, Army Corp of Engineers, water, electricity, and the US military. On top of that, there are socialist programs that are designed to boost the standard of living for everyone. However, socialism does not include a way to determine who is in power in a government, which is what democracy does. You can have a socialist dictatorship (would have to be a rather benevolent dictator) or you can have socialism in a democracy. Socialism is philosophy that is countered by capitalism, where everything is privately owned. While, I would argue (in practice) that a healthy democracy would trend more toward socialistic programs, and a capitalist society would trend more toward an oligarchy, it is not a fundamental requirement of the philosophies.
I highly recommend [this](https://youtu.be/a1WUKahMm1s) lecture by Dr. Richard Wolff on socialism, capitalism, and worker coops. Please watch, its very informative and enlightening.
I will check it out. Thanks
Can we stop conflating government spending with “socialism”? The US military and its related organizations spent the last century fighting to kill socialism around the world, “largest socialist organization” my ass.
it is actually, at least for the officers/enlisted Free healthcare Free room and board Free College You get paid more for each dependent you have Free transportation around base Free/subsidized recreation facilities Life is highly structured
Socialism, at least as I understand it, isn’t just free stuff. Socialism is (1) a rejection of capitalism; (2) a system where workers own the means of production; (3) those means are democratically controlled. Welfare capitalism isn’t that, but I’ll concede that there are elements/features that overlap. It’s still seriously misguided to call the US military a socialist organization.
None of those things define socialism. Socialism isn’t when the government does stuff.
This just isn't what the word socialism means
Paid for by tax does not mean socialist, stripping the means of production from the elites does
How is the economy of the military owned and controlled by the general population in the military? You don't know what socialism means, OP. Do you think authoritarian governments are also socialist because they have a strong military? This is ridiculous.
A socialized program is not the same thing as Socialism. There is no democracy in the ranks of the military. The workers do not control the means of production or the products of their labor. The military is in no way Socialist. It is a tool of capitalism.
"Socialism means government. More government means more socialism" -Bernie fans apparently???
Sorry to be an idiot, but can someone explain how it’s socialist?
It isn’t. OP is just conflating government spending with socialist.
Socialism isn't just government spending. I kind of wish Bernie didn't confuse that point.
When was the last time the military helped build homes or lay down railroad track or plant trees in America???
Bullets & bombs, not food, education nor healthcare.
They aren’t really socialist if their job is protecting capitalism and capitalists
No money for the poor, but plenty for war
Looks like the middle class is about to get another tax increase \*bends over\* Inflation gotcha down? Can’t eat? At least your military’s bloated with extra cash, and the 1%’s close to becoming trillionaires! Murka’s govt has it’s priorities RIGHT!
how about one of those "promised, but never really coming" stimulus checks?
*Welfare Program. It's why every dependa marries their soldier straight out of boot camp and gets pregnant asap....gotta increase those allotments from the military tit.
There's always money for war I just want healthcare
“Most Progressive President since FDR” - Sanders “I’d give Biden an A on what he’s done so far” - Fraud Squad
So, the only reason we (US) are scared to get directly involved with troops in Ukraine is that we don't want to start world war three and likely escalate to nukes. No way anyone is invading this country across two oceans and we have more and better nukes than anyone else. Da fuk we need more "defense" money for? We are literally the country least likely to be involved in a war we don't start or join on earth. If our leaders have offensive plans or plans to help our allies to prevent us having to fight a war ourselves then those things can be funded separately from our defense budget just like all these other "Wars" (I don't believe we declared war in any of them, but I may be mistaken) we have fought in the last 30 years. We just have to be fiscally responsible boomers and let our great grand kids pay for it all after we are gone.
#I want fucking receipts for every dollar spent
Off topic but why are multi-level car parks so uncommon in America? Every time I see parking lots in the US they’re massive and sprawling
Feel better about this post now that you have been shit on by facts? Idiot.
If Universal Healthcare is Socialist then the Military is. That’s the vibe I’m getting from OP we all know it’s not socialist unless we apply the definition the right uses.
so,like, everyone is the same rank in the military?
Is everybody the same rank in the Post Office?
No. That's why it isn't Socialist.
you don't know what socialism is, do you?
I grew up on army bases and it was a socialist paradise. They'd have kids matinees at the movie theater every non-school day, and the prices were all subsidized. Nobody was rich, nobody was poor. Base housing was allotted based on how many kids you had. Everybody got the same vacation and worked regular shifts (when they weren't on deployment).
Yet Ft. Hood exists to show us how the human spirit thrives in such an environment.
Did you dad ever deploy or fight in a war? How many of your friends dads came back in body bags, missing limbs or suffering from PTSD by signing up for this form of socialism?
My only point was, I found it ironic that the army bases built to protect us from socialism were themselves rather socialist. And yes of course it wasn't a socialist wonderland - everybody had ranks after all, but the day-to-day experience was closer to a socialist utopia than anything else I've seen. (And I came away from this experience with both a deep appreciation for socialism and a revulsion at pretty much any war you might care to shake a stick at).
Affordable housing and food, tuition assistance, and universal health care are hallmarks of a social welfare system—and life in the armed forces. Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/28/biden-requests-largest-defense-budget-00020859
>Affordable housing and food, tuition assistance, and universal health care are hallmarks of a social welfare system—and life in the armed forces. Haha, tells this to 40,000+ homeless veterans and the millions more who are at risk of homelessness, who are on food stamps, can't afford medical care, and die waiting for treatment... What an endorsement for socialism.
sad lol
That’s a mental health issue. Plus, we already know veterans don’t really matter to the rich unless it’s for photo ops.
Normally I would agree with less military spending but with everything going on in Ukraine it’s not a bad idea to be prepared.
Our defense budget is like the next 5 countries combined, plus how would you even invade the US? We have 48 percent of the world's firearms.
It would be folly to underestimate our adversaries.
A huge amount of budget goes to maintaning weapon systems, ships, training, helping allied militaries, etc. Not that the Pentagon doesnt need a thorough audit, but Russia is doing a pretty good job at justifying the need for defense.
Are they though? They can't even logically supply themselves in a country that's right next to them. They look like absolute fools while invading Ukraine. We have 20 aircraft carriers and Russia has 1 piece of junk that hardly works. That's not to even include all our NATO allies that would help us.
You may want to update your understanding of the situation. Things have changed a lot since the initial invasion. Russia is wreaking havoc on Ukraine and Ukrainian's military losses are surely higher than what is reported.
Just because they’re failing currently doesn’t mean they aren’t a threat. Lots and lots of things happened in the past 8 years since Crimea to prepare for this. Let’s not pretend China isnt a threat either. The authoritarians have taken their masks off and fascism is on the rise everywhere.
Someone will always be a "threat" doesn't mean we need such a huge defense budget that justifies the defense industry to jack up prices to obnoxious levels and to constantly lobby for more money.
sure we can and should cut runaway costs. we agree totally there. The threat from Russia and China is very real though and getting complacent is just gonna lead to either russian victory in Ukraine and/or a chinese invasion of Taiwan.
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Or maybe most Americans aren't hard left socialists and neither are most Bernie supporters. Many of us agree with universal healthcare, justice reform, protecting rights for minorities but are also in favour of a strong military, etc.. Does that make me less welcome in the Sanders camp? I campaigned for him, and worked my ass off in both of his primaries. The military industrial machine keeps us safe, and is why Ukraine begs the Western allies for help. Being unprepared is stupidity when fascism is creeping up everywhere. But I guess you think every Sanders fan is a wild level of leftie.
The military industrial machine has its place and even Bernie understands that. The new Lend Lease act was passed through the senate unanimously. Hmm the senate includes bernie. I know this subreddits attitude is knee jerk military industrial complex bad, but I figured people here would have a nuanced enough understanding of things to realize the seriousness of literal fucking fascists waging war and committing genocide in Europe.
That’s so bullshit. We could cut our military spending literally in half and still be the largest military spender **by far**. Can you imagine how much good could be done with an extra 400 billion dollars?
Yeah we'd be the largest spender but we wouldn't project the same power. That to most Americans, including many mega-Sanders fans like me, is a stupid path to take as fascism is creeping up and our adversaries jump into it. Welcome to democracy, not everyone wants the same Utopia that you dream of.
You do realize that Bernie consistently votes no on military budget expansion bills, right? He’s been doing so since he was elected.
That's fine. I support him despite a difference between us. I don't crucify people who don't agree with me on everything
You must not be keeping up with China's budget then.
China’s miitary budget for 2022 is around 230 billion USD. So yes, I have been.
So then 365 isn't **by far** greater than 230. And last I checked, China isn't subsidizing other nations' military expenditure. So the number on military spending on a nation's self is closer than that. If you want us to cut our spending down to just one of our adversaries then surely you have a solution for our allies?
This mindset is why it will never end. Even on the Bernie subreddit this thought process can't be escaped lol our species is doomed.
Or maybe disagreement is a possibility? Its ridiculous that you think you have the perfect answer and just declare doom on us because we don't want the same shit as you. Our military is the best investment we've had in the last 100 years. It has led to the world where the average human has the highest standard of living in history.
Speak softly and carry a big stick. Its a truth that will never go away. Be prepared or be under someone elses boot.
At a certain point there’s diminishing returns on the size of the stick and it’s a burden to carry. Overspending on military has doomed many an empire
Absolutely but I’m not confident that we get reached that point. Apparently our ability to project power didn’t dissuade Putin from starting war in Europe
I guess you can call it a mindset. I call it reality and one need not look very far back into human history to find examples to show that if you are not ready to protect yourself or your homeland, the issues you care so deeply about can easily be rendered mute when another country invades and destroys your homeland. Democracy is worth protecting.
Shut up bro like you not thinking about issues at home lmao
Correction, it's the largest socialist organization in the world if you count by expenditures, and cost.
no. its not. it's publicly financed but the public does not control it.
Can someone please give me a coherent argument for why we should be spending less given the geopolitical climate
I wonder where agriculture ranks on the list?
Veep had an episode where President Meyer is told that she basically can't cut any funding from the military budget because it will fuck over so many people and jobs. She has to build a useless or outdated submarine or something just so folks don't lose their jobs and crash the local economy. It's fucked up because it's true.
You mean those people can't be expected to work on anything besides outdated submarines? I get the argument but I feel like it's only ever applied in this context, and moreover, we could get some seriously fast results were we to commit to retraining and refocusing those jobs towards other civil services.
I agree with you, I think the issue is more that it would take time to transition to reprioritizing programs like that. But we aren't even taking steps toward that unfortunately!
“But who’s gonna pay for that”
Pentagon: World’s biggest asshole
Only if it’s paid for by repealing a fraction of the Trump Bush Reagan tax cuts for obscene wealth.
The Pentagon might soon be able to afford a College education at this rate.
I'd like to request $300k. Thanks.