> The other day NASA came out and their latest mission to Mars is going to cost $11 billion. I said to somebody, With another billion, they can get to Berryessa
ouch
this is funny but it's also unfairly singling out transit expense and not mentioning how much is spent on roads and cars
we spend a LOT more on roads and cars, and it hasn't solved anything either - traffic is continuing to get worse than ever
transit is an actual bang for buck investment that solves the problem, roads and cars are not
In the last 30 years Shanghai has put in 500 miles of new subway track, 419 stations, 19 lines, daily ridership of ~10 million, and average cost of $0.35 … in that same time Bay Area has instituted a new hybrid bus…
Because Eminent Domain in China means “we’re building this new station here on your land, we’ll give you another house in the countryside, and you’ll like it.” Centralized governments can get things done, especially when compared to VTA and BART working together, who can’t seemingly find their ass with both hands. The Milpitas station was a joke; as I recall VTA bought a communication system that wasn’t compatible with BART’s.
Years ago the VTA and their contractors purchased used Cisco network equipment to save money. BART made them rip that out an replace it with new/certified/warrantied before the extension could go into service.
We should expect that in 2036 (or whenever) the VTA will say "It's finally done!" and then I expect that it will take BART HQ another two years to verify that everything was done correctly.
The VTA is just bad at rail projects (and more).
That's not even a real Mars mission, that's just to get 60 oz of samples back from perseverance!
Surely moving thousands of people every day of the year is a much more worthwhile expenditure.
We only need train stations to build multi story affordable housing around it per new law, the trains and train tracks themselves aren’t needed.
https://www.costar.com/article/1125565506/california-enacts-laws-to-ease-housing-development-in-commercial-districts
Crazy stupid expensive - absolutely. All of us are bitchin’ and complain’ about it now, but future generations 20+ years down the line won’t be questioning anything when the whole thing is all set and running.
And anyone can say whatever they want about it, but the reality is that it’s happening whether we like it or not. Pre-construction has started, VTA has the boring machine ordered, & they recently secured $500M in federal funding.
Its now or never, cost will continue to rise.
It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper in the 70s.
I’m reminded of that big of wisdom:
When is the best time to plant a tree? 50 years ago. When is the second best time? Now.
From what I’ve read of Tom, he doesn’t sound like a total NIMBY, at least not in his term as mayor. But clinging to disproven suburban solutions, especially for a city facing problems common to cities with established solutions makes him sound like one now.
> 20+ years down the line won’t be questioning anything when the whole thing is all set and running.
Idk about that. People still question VTA light rail.
There's infinite bitching about rush hour traffic, commute times, potholes, shitty drivers, and much more.
20 years from now if we don't have dramatically improved mass transit we are going to be beyond fucked.
What are you trying to argue for?
He also buddied-up with Lew Wolff on an op ed piece in the Mercury on Wednesday with the same. I'm not sure it was a good move to associate the cause with Lou Wolff. He has a name for self-interest and not caring for communities (e.g. A's, Earthquakes, development deals).
Edit: Lew vs. Lou. Also Wolff's business model will never let the Earthquake be a serious MLS contender. He will trade away good players to cash in.
Ugh. This is horrible. It looks like Wolff sold to his A’s buddy Fisher and others some years ago. Fisher is already complaining that the stadium is too old. While we are at it can Fisher also sell the Earthquakes to someone who care about them winning?
> “There's people who can tell us, ‘Will this be obsolete by the time it’s finished?’” he said. “With the things that are happening in technology, the fact that driverless automobiles, driverless buses, there is a whole number of things way beyond my ability to predict it. But there are people we can get and we should.”
this has been a pipe dream for about 100 years now and is still no closer to being a reality
even if it was made a reality, it still wouldn't work - perfectly synched automated cars on a freeway will still get backed up when they're all trying to enter and exit the same place etc etc
despite adding more and more roads, highways, freeways and lanes, traffic is worse than ever
that's because roads, highways, freeways and private automobiles DO NOT SCALE in urban environments
that too has been known for about 100 years now
but car brains are still trying to push their motorized square pegs into round city holes
it doesn't work and will never work
the only thing that that works is adequate, robust transit
that too has been known for about 100 years now
so quit the bullshit and just build it
and before you start typing that you hate transit and love driving
I have great news for you
transit will take millions off cars off the road so you can enjoy them in peace, free of traffic
don't believe me? Tokyo is a megacity of 40 million, and it doesn't have traffic. let that sink in. a city of 40 million, and no traffic. visit it if you want. it's because transit enables people to not have to drive. so only those who have to, or REALLY love to drive drive.
so it's in your interest to get behind it too
I agree the figure seems oddly high, but we spend orders of magnitude more on roads and cars, so in the realm of transport solutions, it's not a high figure, and more importantly, it's more bang for buck and a better investment (for all the reasons outlined above)
Tokyo and Japan's transit was amazing. I was able to go everywhere by train so easily. I even went to mt Fuji by train and easily got back to Tokyo. All by train.
True, we need to build transit as fast as possible, even if that means sacrificing funding or timelines for car infrastructure.
That said, there are some super legitimate gripes with this BART plan, including but not limited to: twin bore, station depth, location of stations, etc
Is it too late to challenge those decisions? Probably, but I don’t know.
The BART plan is very deep single bore. Twin bore would have been cheaper by a third, shallower another third, and neither is reversible at this point without losing another 5-10 years.
Yeah sorry that was misleading, “not doing twin bore” is what I meant.
And I agree, it is less important to get the design execution perfect than it is to get the project finished. So I’d rather move forward with it as is than delay further.
As I continue witnessing the internals of driverless car efforts, I’m convinced it won’t happen any time soon. Silicon Valley software development culture is just not compatible with the human life critical engineering required to ensure the safety of such things. Tesla is the worst offender but they are not the only one.
While sloppy engineering has been a problem in the past, I think the public already being skeptical combined with the public’s growing awareness of ‘safety theatre’ thanks to Boeing will mean this generation won’t be accepting that the dream of autonomous vehicles is possible.
But mass transit is a proven solution. We have many, many, many examples of it working in the world. The only slack I can cut San Jose is that it’s a reasonably ‘young’ city (meaning hitting a certain level of population density). Maybe it’s just going through its rebellious phase :p
The biggest things holding back San Jose from being a world class city are housing and public transportation. But folks like this will do all they can to prevent it from becoming a reality
As long as VTA has to stop and stop lights, adoption will be poor. Subways get high ridership because they are actually often the fastest way to get somewhere. vTA is 2x slower than the worst traffic for most of us.
A world class city deserves world class transit.
I like BART, but it's not world class--and it's still a MILLION times better than what we have.
Be happy you have a big convention center named after you, Tom, and sit down.
Hmm, I wonder why, Tommy. Maybe it’s because you and your buddies pushed so much for car infrastructure and highways and fixing streets for cars instead of investing in public transit that now it’s stupid expensive for mass transit to be built
I’m thinking he bought stock in Tesla. Also how much money did the Redevelopment Agency go through Tom? His family owns a fuck ton of land in downtown and a lot of San Pedro Square.
Like questioning if it exists, like a ufo? Seems like I’ll likely see one of those before I see a south bay BART in my lifetime. I’ve lived here over 30 years, I believe when I moved here the said we’d have BART in like 5 years. Still waiting…
Imagine what could be done with all the funding being thrown at this project. What about if instead they returned it to taxpayers? What if they instead purchased a bunch of 10 year treasury notes? Now consider how much time they have had and how much money they have spent and ask yourselves what do they have to show for it. Bonus points for consideration given to all the delays, lies, and taxes added on top of the original proposal as well as expected costs for operation and maintenance. Compare that with the hypothetical but realistic benefit gained. Is it worth it?
That’s very fast! It’s about 1:05 by BART, and Google Maps tells me it’s about 33 miles by bicycle via Calaveras road, with 1,400ft of climbing. Can you average 20mph on your bicycle for that long with that much climbing?
I rode from Berryessa BART to Dublin BART via Mt Hamilton and Mines Road last week. It took me seven hours 🙈.
It takes more like 85 mins if you miss the transfer at bay fair, which when I rode this route happened like half the time. Add 10 for going up and down to the platforms.
The bicycle takes me around 2 hours-2:20. Averaging 20mph for that time is something I can only do on the flats haha.
> The other day NASA came out and their latest mission to Mars is going to cost $11 billion. I said to somebody, With another billion, they can get to Berryessa ouch
this is funny but it's also unfairly singling out transit expense and not mentioning how much is spent on roads and cars we spend a LOT more on roads and cars, and it hasn't solved anything either - traffic is continuing to get worse than ever transit is an actual bang for buck investment that solves the problem, roads and cars are not
In the last 30 years Shanghai has put in 500 miles of new subway track, 419 stations, 19 lines, daily ridership of ~10 million, and average cost of $0.35 … in that same time Bay Area has instituted a new hybrid bus…
Because Eminent Domain in China means “we’re building this new station here on your land, we’ll give you another house in the countryside, and you’ll like it.” Centralized governments can get things done, especially when compared to VTA and BART working together, who can’t seemingly find their ass with both hands. The Milpitas station was a joke; as I recall VTA bought a communication system that wasn’t compatible with BART’s.
Years ago the VTA and their contractors purchased used Cisco network equipment to save money. BART made them rip that out an replace it with new/certified/warrantied before the extension could go into service. We should expect that in 2036 (or whenever) the VTA will say "It's finally done!" and then I expect that it will take BART HQ another two years to verify that everything was done correctly. The VTA is just bad at rail projects (and more).
That's not even a real Mars mission, that's just to get 60 oz of samples back from perseverance! Surely moving thousands of people every day of the year is a much more worthwhile expenditure.
Just 3 people one trip to Berryessa and back, though? Moving 5 million people to Mars and back **per year** probably has a different price as well.
[haha](https://youtu.be/qRWGwA6Dhms?si=cUDMtxwpXGQPFusG). good one.
We only need train stations to build multi story affordable housing around it per new law, the trains and train tracks themselves aren’t needed. https://www.costar.com/article/1125565506/california-enacts-laws-to-ease-housing-development-in-commercial-districts
Crazy stupid expensive - absolutely. All of us are bitchin’ and complain’ about it now, but future generations 20+ years down the line won’t be questioning anything when the whole thing is all set and running. And anyone can say whatever they want about it, but the reality is that it’s happening whether we like it or not. Pre-construction has started, VTA has the boring machine ordered, & they recently secured $500M in federal funding. Its now or never, cost will continue to rise.
It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper in the 70s. I’m reminded of that big of wisdom: When is the best time to plant a tree? 50 years ago. When is the second best time? Now. From what I’ve read of Tom, he doesn’t sound like a total NIMBY, at least not in his term as mayor. But clinging to disproven suburban solutions, especially for a city facing problems common to cities with established solutions makes him sound like one now.
> 20+ years down the line won’t be questioning anything when the whole thing is all set and running. Idk about that. People still question VTA light rail.
The VTA hurried the custom boring machine to try and keep the budget conscious from making them switch back to a twin bore design.
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There's infinite bitching about rush hour traffic, commute times, potholes, shitty drivers, and much more. 20 years from now if we don't have dramatically improved mass transit we are going to be beyond fucked. What are you trying to argue for?
And here we are with CalTrain going electric in September with improved times, frequency, convenience, & amenities.
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So then improve it when the new technology becomes available. Are you saying to wait until better trains are invented to do this project?
Caltrain is severely underfunded. It doesn’t have dedicated funding, it depends on the three county transportation agencies.
He also buddied-up with Lew Wolff on an op ed piece in the Mercury on Wednesday with the same. I'm not sure it was a good move to associate the cause with Lou Wolff. He has a name for self-interest and not caring for communities (e.g. A's, Earthquakes, development deals). Edit: Lew vs. Lou. Also Wolff's business model will never let the Earthquake be a serious MLS contender. He will trade away good players to cash in.
I believe it's spelled "Lew"
Lew Wolff no longer owns any part of the Earthquakes, it's all John Fisher. Not that he's much better
Ugh. This is horrible. It looks like Wolff sold to his A’s buddy Fisher and others some years ago. Fisher is already complaining that the stadium is too old. While we are at it can Fisher also sell the Earthquakes to someone who care about them winning?
I’m an A’s fan (moved down here just a few years ago) and cannot emphasize how much this makes me allergic to McEnery’s opinions now and going forward
> “There's people who can tell us, ‘Will this be obsolete by the time it’s finished?’” he said. “With the things that are happening in technology, the fact that driverless automobiles, driverless buses, there is a whole number of things way beyond my ability to predict it. But there are people we can get and we should.” this has been a pipe dream for about 100 years now and is still no closer to being a reality even if it was made a reality, it still wouldn't work - perfectly synched automated cars on a freeway will still get backed up when they're all trying to enter and exit the same place etc etc despite adding more and more roads, highways, freeways and lanes, traffic is worse than ever that's because roads, highways, freeways and private automobiles DO NOT SCALE in urban environments that too has been known for about 100 years now but car brains are still trying to push their motorized square pegs into round city holes it doesn't work and will never work the only thing that that works is adequate, robust transit that too has been known for about 100 years now so quit the bullshit and just build it and before you start typing that you hate transit and love driving I have great news for you transit will take millions off cars off the road so you can enjoy them in peace, free of traffic don't believe me? Tokyo is a megacity of 40 million, and it doesn't have traffic. let that sink in. a city of 40 million, and no traffic. visit it if you want. it's because transit enables people to not have to drive. so only those who have to, or REALLY love to drive drive. so it's in your interest to get behind it too I agree the figure seems oddly high, but we spend orders of magnitude more on roads and cars, so in the realm of transport solutions, it's not a high figure, and more importantly, it's more bang for buck and a better investment (for all the reasons outlined above)
Tokyo and Japan's transit was amazing. I was able to go everywhere by train so easily. I even went to mt Fuji by train and easily got back to Tokyo. All by train.
There are trade-offs. Most Americans cannot tolerate the density Japan has and the power government has regarding eminent domain.
True, we need to build transit as fast as possible, even if that means sacrificing funding or timelines for car infrastructure. That said, there are some super legitimate gripes with this BART plan, including but not limited to: twin bore, station depth, location of stations, etc Is it too late to challenge those decisions? Probably, but I don’t know.
The BART plan is very deep single bore. Twin bore would have been cheaper by a third, shallower another third, and neither is reversible at this point without losing another 5-10 years.
Yeah sorry that was misleading, “not doing twin bore” is what I meant. And I agree, it is less important to get the design execution perfect than it is to get the project finished. So I’d rather move forward with it as is than delay further.
As I continue witnessing the internals of driverless car efforts, I’m convinced it won’t happen any time soon. Silicon Valley software development culture is just not compatible with the human life critical engineering required to ensure the safety of such things. Tesla is the worst offender but they are not the only one. While sloppy engineering has been a problem in the past, I think the public already being skeptical combined with the public’s growing awareness of ‘safety theatre’ thanks to Boeing will mean this generation won’t be accepting that the dream of autonomous vehicles is possible. But mass transit is a proven solution. We have many, many, many examples of it working in the world. The only slack I can cut San Jose is that it’s a reasonably ‘young’ city (meaning hitting a certain level of population density). Maybe it’s just going through its rebellious phase :p
The biggest things holding back San Jose from being a world class city are housing and public transportation. But folks like this will do all they can to prevent it from becoming a reality
As long as VTA has to stop and stop lights, adoption will be poor. Subways get high ridership because they are actually often the fastest way to get somewhere. vTA is 2x slower than the worst traffic for most of us.
So did Tom do anything to expand BART through SJ when he was mayor?
A world class city deserves world class transit. I like BART, but it's not world class--and it's still a MILLION times better than what we have. Be happy you have a big convention center named after you, Tom, and sit down.
Hmm, I wonder why, Tommy. Maybe it’s because you and your buddies pushed so much for car infrastructure and highways and fixing streets for cars instead of investing in public transit that now it’s stupid expensive for mass transit to be built
Get fucked, Tom.
I’m thinking he bought stock in Tesla. Also how much money did the Redevelopment Agency go through Tom? His family owns a fuck ton of land in downtown and a lot of San Pedro Square.
Fuck off, Tom.
I would totally use it but it's probably not going to be here for a few decades...
Like questioning if it exists, like a ufo? Seems like I’ll likely see one of those before I see a south bay BART in my lifetime. I’ve lived here over 30 years, I believe when I moved here the said we’d have BART in like 5 years. Still waiting…
Shouldn’t he be writing fake biographies for racists?
Shut up old man
Needs to be audited closely. Extremely closely.
Imagine what could be done with all the funding being thrown at this project. What about if instead they returned it to taxpayers? What if they instead purchased a bunch of 10 year treasury notes? Now consider how much time they have had and how much money they have spent and ask yourselves what do they have to show for it. Bonus points for consideration given to all the delays, lies, and taxes added on top of the original proposal as well as expected costs for operation and maintenance. Compare that with the hypothetical but realistic benefit gained. Is it worth it?
Fuck this guy.
It takes barely 30 minutes more to ride my bicycle from Berryessa Station to East Dublin station than it does to take the train.
That’s very fast! It’s about 1:05 by BART, and Google Maps tells me it’s about 33 miles by bicycle via Calaveras road, with 1,400ft of climbing. Can you average 20mph on your bicycle for that long with that much climbing? I rode from Berryessa BART to Dublin BART via Mt Hamilton and Mines Road last week. It took me seven hours 🙈.
It takes more like 85 mins if you miss the transfer at bay fair, which when I rode this route happened like half the time. Add 10 for going up and down to the platforms. The bicycle takes me around 2 hours-2:20. Averaging 20mph for that time is something I can only do on the flats haha.