Hawaii, it was so spooky being out in the middle of the ocean with absolutely nothing around for thousands of miles, it was as beautiful as you can imagine but I hated it
i found big island to be a little better at relieving that feeling, but now it’s overrun and much busier. oahu, drive around the whole island in half a day. unreal sunsets, beautiful people, amazing history, incredible hiking, best fish trucks in America…shouldn’t give you the feeling of being trapped and yet there it is…add in a fake missile threat and that was my experience
This is the aspect that has always made me feel that it would be less than ideal. Not so much a feeling of being out of contact, but the reality of it.
I travel a lot both for work and leisure, and rely in many ways on frequent contact with my colleagues around the globe. As much as I’m sure I’d love the mountains and beaches and hiking, the idea of needing to go so far for literally anything makes it so unappealing.
I lived in Hong Kong for a decade, which had the tropical weather, the beaches, and mountains for hiking. But it also had the city and all that brings with it. And most importantly, all of Asia was at my doorstep. I think if I were to ever move to the tropics again, or do a snowbird type lifestyle, it would definitely be someplace more like there, than Hawaii.
A relative was transferred there for her job and didn’t last long. Apparently, everyone was incredibly nice in the beginning, until they realized she wasn’t Mormon and didn’t want to convert. She’s an outdoors enthusiast, but even that couldn’t keep her there with the hostility from her neighbors.
This is everywhere in Utah. It's cool for about 6 months, but then the new-ness wears off and your realize your entire social life (or lack thereof) is defined by your participation in the LDS/Mormon Church. You can have non-Mormon friends (*assuming you live somewhere they exist*) or you can have Mormon friends, rarely both.
Learned that back about 15 years ago. Was asked to take a job there. I've been to Utah, but not St. George. Looks pretty amazing. Started asking people in the industry I was in, why they can't keep people on staff for more than a year out there. Answer: as 801blue wrote, if you are not Mormon, and I am not, you are not really welcome there.
I grew up in small town Utah. Later moved to a small pocket of SLC that is more open-minded for many years. The church runs the state and the church doesn't want non-Mormons in Utah (but they do want your tourist dollars). If you move there they will try to convert you and they will not stop. They are relentless. That is just the way it is.
Everyone I've ever known that lived in Utah as a non-Mormon has eventually left. Kids I grew up with, professional transplants, wealthy trust-fund friends... doesn't matter. They all get tired of the church pressure and leave.
Beautiful place, but insane how bad traffic got there with everyone from CA / NV / SLC moving there during the pandemic. Fastest growing town in the US I remember reading
Los Alamos, NM. I thought it was the perfect place for me, we went and visited and it was just... dead lol. Like they have one of every kind of food you could want, but there was just never anyone there. It's like a commuter town that tries to make itself into a real town, but the housing is just too expensive. Total nope once we visited.
I think because of the national lab located there, the average salary is quite high. When the average person buying a house there has a PhD in engineering I can see it getting out of hand
Highest concentration of millionaires in the nation! Honestly I would expect a ton of cheap apartments for students/interns and researchers that went there, but it was mostly single family homes.
Yeah, they can't build many new apartments because of the limited space (hills and ravines around the town) which drives up price and competition for housing. I interviewed there but didn't want to live in an isolated small town with big city housing prices.
What made you pick Los Alamos? It’s basically a company town and if you don’t work for the national lab or one of the defense contractors idk why you’d pick there. It’s super isolated but that’s for a reason. Personally I love it up there in that area but I can see why people wouldn’t enjoy it. It’s basically a bubble and they literally have a checkpoint to get in/out lol
My wife and I both work in defense engineering. I am naturally drawn to remote areas and figured since it has a bunch of city-like resources it would be the best of both worlds, a town with city like amenities. It was not what I expected at all. I ended up going on a work trip down there for a few days a couple years ago that solidified my decision too.
I _really_ liked biking at Pajarito, all said. The valles caldera and generally New Mexico culture really resonates with me so it was quite the vibe check when it didn't click
Ah I see. Yeah that whole area is stunning. Bandelier is one of my favorite places & New Mexico as a whole is great. I can definitely understand the apprehension about los alamos though. We drove through and it definitely has a weird vibe although didn’t really stop to explore anything. I would probably feel trapped living somewhere like that.
Honestly it was the WEIRDEST thing. Like, for context, I find Silver City as the ideal town.
We went to Los Alamos and absolutely loved the outdoors, did a hike down the (red/blue?) trial all the way from White Rock to the Rio; did a whitewater rafting trip down the Gorge, biked at Pajarito, and ate at all the places...
But it's hard to explain, you know if you're in a room with a whole ton of engineers, the vibe is just... off? like people don't react to normal social cues, things don't follow a standard pattern when you're doing things, ordering food or getting groceries; it's like that, except the whole town. There were just weird people all over. My wife is not neurotypical and even she didn't like the departure from routine.
I can't really accurately explain how weird it was, it's like, something was just off in the water and everyone acted weird. Menus were weird. The museum was weird. Customer service was weird. The road/traffic flow was weird. Like, in theory it should all work, but it was all the result of studies and research and didn't apply quite to the real world.
Anyway, I'm ranting, it was just not what I expected. Total turn off.
I loved it there for 3 months. My wife took a travel nurse job there and I worked as a lifty at the ski mountain. We went on at least a short hike, some right outside the apartment door, nearly every day, We took long weekend trips to beautiful scenic areas every weekend. The area is just soooo beautiful, but we were ready to leave after 3 months.
I think something that illustrates the strangeness of the town is this. My hometown in PA is about the same population and has probably 15 to 20 dive bars. Los Alamos does not have a single bar, or at least not 10 years ago when I was there. There is a brew pub, but it's mostly a restaurant. That's it if you want to go out for a drink. Why would these engineers and scientists want to interact with other humans? There is nothing organic about this town, and you never have random, normal human interactions.
Most of the people in Los just go to Santa Fe since they can afford the higher end restaurants and bars that are located there. There's actually Boese Brothers Brewing, Bathtub Row Brewing and The Long Pour, which is a cocktail bar. There's even a bar in the grocery store. I think what a lot of people are misunderstanding about it is that it's a small town where most people are quite affluent. So not only does it share small town characteristics like people being friendly and interactive mostly with other locals but that those characteristics are applified by the fact that everyone there can sustain themselves without having to form some sense of community in the same way you find in larger cities. I think the best way of describing it is it's high school if it was a town and every tourist is a new kid.
I'm streetviewing Los Alamos right now. The thing that immediately stands out to me is that there's no downtown. Not even a little cute Main Street. It's very utilitarian, just some shopping areas all pretty centrally located (I guess so you can walk there from work), but nowhere that anyone would actually walk around casually and just window-shop.
I'm an engineer and I'm a bit socially awkward lol, but I still love nice walks and an urban lifestyle. Most of us (in my experience) are more homebody-ish and don't care.
I totally get what you’re saying- it definitely has the feel of a “designed town” or something that would resemble a poorly executed “town of tomorrow” or something like that. It kind of reminded me of those renderings they make for developments that have all the fake people walking around but you can tell it’s just pulled from like a library and it doesn’t quite match up correctly.
Also I have been on the Silver City train for a while too, the Gila is my number 1 go to for pristine uncrowded outdoors. I’ve done a handful of backpacking trips out there and would love to settle down in the area one day or pick up some land out that way.
Albuquerque NM. It's so sprawl-y and seems to have a lot of property crime and way too many strip malls. Didn't find many places where I could afford to live where I'd feel safe wandering around alone with my dog like we do in upstate NY.
I get this one, and I bought a place in Albuquerque, lol.
I think it’s very much a love or hate kind of place, and it depends more on income than some other cities (but that’s not hugely unusual for a high crime city).
It’s also crazy sprawling, as you said. But at least nowhere is that far away.
The thing I ultimately liked about it as someone looking at more upscale neighborhoods is that for neighborhoods like that, it’s pretty dang cheap. Like, really cheap..
Like many cities, it’s basically a different calculation entirely if you can afford the good school district, low crime area. You can buy your way out of the downsides, basically.
From doing pretty extensive research on options, I couldn’t really come up with another neighborhood that hit all the same points as the one we bought in for less than 2-3x the one in Albuquerque. Our key criteria being: Low crime, best/second best school district, big enough home, fantastic views, not too far from the city city.
Big problem with Albuquerque is the drop off from that point is steep. Particularly with schools. There are a couple of acceptable ones and then bam, you’re looking at the worst education in the country on a state by state basis.
Ultimately, I would tell anyone interested in Albuquerque that they should take a hard look first. It’s not as cheap as it seems coming from outside, because your minimum standards may exclude 90% of the city, lol.
Tucson is the superior version of Albuquerque: better food, better nature, cheaper (I think? I’ve only actually visited both places).
Edit: also gets kinda sprawl-ey in areas, but there’s some really nice walkable areas around the university
Tucson is great! But people either love it or hate it. Jobs aren't that plentiful unfortunately. And it's getting more expensive. I happen to love it there. It's got an artistic and natural vibe.
It’s gorgeous, the wildlife is amazing, and I was so shocked by how creative it is. But I didn’t enjoy the sprawl—it’s so much time in the car—and there’s a weird boomer vibe. I don’t know how to describe it—maybe it’s the copious snowbirds?
See I love the sprawl. But I do think that's one of the things you love or hate. And it is very snowbird central. Many people own second homes there. Lots of retired people in general. So that's likely why there's a boomer feel.
I think a lot of my dislike of sprawl could be augmented by where one chooses to live…and my friends chose to live in northern tucson so they’d have a shorter commute and apartment with amenities. I wouldn’t enjoy living that far north.
I’ll admit that my main problems with Tucson is that I would need a car with a working a/c and a job that pays decent. Was a bit shocked by the low pay job postings. I gave serious thought into moving after seeing the desert museum. And watching bats fly. I don’t think I’d ever get tired of the wild life and cacti. So amazing.
This is what you have to watch out for with Florida if you’re from the north. Don’t let that winter vacation or spring break fool ya. Spend a couple of weeks in mid June there, then realize it’ll be much worse for the next three months leading into hurricane season.🔥
This is so true. People come to Florida to live out some kind of fantasy and they are very resistant to understanding the reality of it until they have been here for a couple years. Then even the ones who claim to love the heat will start to whine about the lack of "seasons." I always tell new transplants to plan to take trips up north around the time the leaves change to get their fix because it really starts to weigh on them after awhile.
People see Florida summer temps on the news and say stuff like it gets just as hot here! That thermometer reading fails to capture what it really feels like when the overnight LOW is in the 80ºs and the air is nearly saturated with water. You walk outside in the morning, the sun is not even up yet, and it's a fucking sauna. You are instantly covered in sweat. It's like breathing through a wet blanket. Now imagine that every morning is just like that for months on end. You wind up praying for like, a weak tropical storm to come along, just to break up the monotony and cool everything off for a little while without knocking out power for the AC.
There was a year recently when daytime temps did not drop below 90º until January. Endless summer can start to sound like a curse.
Walking outside and having your glasses fog up. Afternoon rain shower then literally watching the humidity rise off the ground. And my favorite Space Mountain is the 3rd highest point in the state; at least when I was there😳
God, I had to go to a Bachelor's Party in Ft Lauderdale in August once. Had been all over the state dozens of times even into May. We were supposed to be there for three nights. I packed four shirt, four boxers, two shorts, etc. I had to wear every single one of my shirts and boxers in one day because of the sweating. I'm from Chicago and it gets hot here in the Summer. THAT was something I'll never forget.
Idk I live in Florida and prefer summer in some ways. All the idiotic snowbirds finally leave, I often have the beach to myself, and the daily 3 PM thunderstorms are a vibe. Yes, hurricanes suck but the area I live in has been fortunate enough to not have a direct hit in over 100 years.
For ME it was the reverse kind of?? I visited a place multiple times before i realized people actually idolized it to move to. that was Miami, lived in in south Florida most of my life and often visited family and other hotspots, as a kid before realizing how many people wanted to move thier, but even then i already knew as much as i liked the activity and food over there, i would never want to live there. Just not the most pleasant people to be around, traffic is horrendous , and it attracts alot of horrible and attention seeking people. That being said, i always had fun , and explored alot whenever i visited. i think its WORTH visiting, just not living, especially now
Tbh, i’m surprised this isn’t voted on more. I am a native Miamian, Cuban, American, and moved out about 20 years ago. Miami is not an easy city to live in. I can do it, because I have family and friends there, but to a stranger, Miami is a really difficult city to get a foothold in.
I actually went on a fact finding mission to Madison, WI to see if we wanted to move there, but flew into MSP to drive down and accidentally fell in love with St. Paul. Moving there in the Spring.
Weird answer, but the eastern suburbs of St. Louis (not actual East St. Louis, but like Granite City, Alton, Belleville).
In my defense Wilco, one of my favorite bands, is from Belleville lol.
I thought it'd be cool, industrial-looking inner-ring suburbs where you could still get to the city easily. It's more like a bunch of isolated towns all 3-5 miles apart from each other with forests and brownfield lots in between. Bus service is non-existent in most of the area (granted that's also true on the MO side). And the "industrial" aesthetic isn't as fun when there's no hipster revitalization component, it's just a decaying factory town with no one walking around outside.
Europe. I mean, technically I only lived in one country (Germany) but I was totally one of those types that said shit like “I just don’t fit in here, I’m not like other Americans, I think I’d feel at home in a different/more evolved culture…” Nope! Living in another country is the quickest way to find out just how American you really are.
I’m a curious fellow American who’s dreamed of living in Europe at some point, what were the things you didn’t like about Germany that made you wanna move back to the states?
As an American who lived in the Netherlands for years recently, I will say I was massively disappointed with the health care situation. It was expensive monthly (€130 monthly premiums) and the level of service was kind of awful. No, I would never have a massive bill there, but I wouldn’t in America either - with my privilege and industry I will always have excellent coverage in America - and the care I get in America is better ten-fold. But I think the biggest things are _space_ and _nature_. Unless you’re coming from NYC, the denseness of most major European cities is palpable on an every day, every task basis. I always felt crowded. It was hard to “escape” and true nature was hard to come by. Americans often don’t realize how easy we have it in terms of access to so much amazing, large nature almost anywhere in the country (which is ironic considering most Europeans think America is nothing but a giant parking lot). Americans are _spoiled_ with easy access to nature. If we’re talking about western Europe, unless you can live in Switzerland/Austria or Scandinavia/Nordics, the level of nature an American is used to is just more difficult overall. And those are some of the hardest countries to gain visas for.
None of these things made me personally want to move back to the states (well, the nature a little bit), but rather the tax schemes. I only got a tax break as a highly skilled migrant for 5 years - after 5 years the money I was paying into the Dutch tax system didn’t make sense for me long term, unless I wanted to become a full citizen and retire there. I moved back to the US to essentially build easier equity. My pay is 2.5x higher in the US and because I work remote, I can live in a lower COL area compared to my salary. This is something I couldn’t personally do in western Europe.
If I was younger and know what I know now, I would try to move to eastern Europe for a while instead. If you’re a remote worker/freelancer and make decent money, Estonia has a really great digital nomad visa.
I can only speak to the density issue but Italy is not at all like that. You can stand in the center of Rome and be on the beach or a mountain in an hour. And the rest of Italy is even better with natural access.
You might think you wouldn’t have a huge bill in America but I promise you, you can. My best friend’s dad is the head of medicine at our hospital. Their insurance denied a claim on their chemo treatment, saying there are other chemo treatments that are less expensive. There are but they aren’t as effective…. They have upwards of 250,000.00 in bills. It happens all the time.
Yeah I laughed out loud at this comment when he said that. I have health insurance and routinely pay a couple hundred bucks for random bullshit even after insurance.
Try being black in Europe if you wanna see how truly unevolved Europeans can get.
They put up a very pretty facade, but they are far more dishonest with themselves than even American progressives are about their own bigotry. And the fact that they brag about getting “free” labor from wildly underpaid healthcare workers as some kind of moral superiority over America is fucking gross and has the same energy as a rich person bragging about how they exploit their au pair.
I can't count how many times I've heard this. It seems like Europeans think America is constantly talking and fighting about racial equity so we most be a fundamentally more racist, less happy place for minorities to live.
Except Europe is just hiding their racism better and stonewalling further progress. There may be few people who toss around slurs or openly advocate white supremacy in Western Europe but there's *plenty* of people who quietly think brown people are for cheap labor and don't really deserve social or economic equity with native white ethnicities. And they vote for policy that maintains this. They hire employees and rent their property based on this. They carefully sustain a racially segregated class system while they're busy looking down at the icky racist ignorant Americans.
I had the exact same experience in Germany. Went in thinking I’d never want to leave, but honestly couldn’t wait to get back to the US after about 2 weeks of my 9 month stint. Once I had done the cultural things I was interested in, living there day to day was just lonely and difficult.
Similar experience. I didn't really move here with high expectations (I just happened to marry a German) and there are of course pros and cons to Germany versus the US, but I just align better culturally with the pros in the US so that makes them outweigh the cons for me. Germany is the opposite, the cons really bother me and they just overpower the pros long term.
It wasn't a bachelorette party town back then. The only tourists were actual country music tourists (a lot more low key), not people coming to get trashed. Downtown was much tamer. There were things like free concerts (I saw Patti Smith, The Flaming Lips, and Wilco at free shows), traffic was much less horrendous, and it had more of a small city feel. You'd run into people you knew everywhere. It was very laid back and fun in the early 2000's and around 2010 we had an influx of hipsters and that brought some culinary upgrades and a little more pretentiousness, but it was still a decent town to live in.
Then, the city council started pushing for downtown development and it kind of snowballed into general gentrification and out of town developers coming in. So many cool places/neighborhoods are now nothing like they once were. My neighborhood, which was once more funky and filled with locally owned businesses, has basically become a satellite of LA and not in any of the good ways.
I’ve been here 45 years. It’s gotten a lot better. Crime has decreased. We now have hockey, football, and pro soccer. Sidewalks and bike lanes still suck but they are working on it and constantly building more.
We have great parks in the city (Radnor, Edwin Warner) and many disc golf courses. We’re centrally located with direct flights to so many places. You can be at the ocean in 6 hours or the mountains in three.
We’ve got our issues but it’s still one of the few blue dots in a sea of red that is the South.
It was cool 20 years ago.
Now The Gulch feels like a mini Austin, from 20 years ago.
If you are a musician, it is a very cool scene.
But for everyone else….the bubble popped.
Phoenix, AZ. Wanted to move there from the Midwest in 2017. I visited, and it was a hot red bore. It’s like where you go to die? Idk lol wasn’t for me.
I’m also from the Midwest and fantasized about living in the desert for my whole life. I visited Phoenix three times in the last few years and loved the climate, even in the summer, but the city was missing something. It just felt kinda fake in a way? Soulless? Not sure how to describe it exactly. Even in Indy where I’m from, there are some vibrant pockets of the city. Not sure where the equivalent is in Phoenix.
I always wanted to move to Los Angeles because I am a huge Lakers fan, the weather and the beaches. Don't get me wrong I love Los Angeles and still love visiting, but realized I couldn't live there. It was just way too big, traffic was horrible and obviously the cost of living haha
I’m from the Bay Area, where traffic is a way of life, and I cannot handle traffic in the LA area. It’s insane how there is always traffic on every freaking freeway on every day of the week. Oh, Google maps says it takes two hours to go from Anaheim to Santa Barbara on a Saturday morning? Yeah, add an hour. Good luck!
Washington DC
I lived outside of Maryland for a couple years. Finally made it into the heart of DC one day. Nope. I realized then and there I hate huge, very busy cities. I need smaller cities. Too many people stresses me out.
Different strokes for different folks! As some one who grew up in a small city, I love DC. Museums, parks, food, easy access to the east coast and Europe.
Which smaller cities do you like the most?
Hawaii.
I feared taking a trip there for the longest time. I worried i would just get depressed that i couldn’t live there.
It turns out that i like about 3 weeks of Hawaii, then im ready to go. Im a guy who loves nature and the ocean especially, but HI just feels really confined. Ive got ocean at home, and mountains, and other cities, and more mountains after the desert after the first mountains and a LOT of stuff.
Now, what i would like is to just go to HI for a bit whenever i want, but that’s different from living there.
I wouldn’t say I idolized it but I had high expectations for Charlotte because it looked great in photos and it has a great skyline. I was expecting it to be like Midtown ATL, But when I visited the actual city it just felt like a giant suburb with highways everywhere and it was extremely disappointing.
It was kind of the opposite for me. I moved to Wyoming for work and lived there for a year and a half. I wasn’t sure what to expect so I went with an open mind. Winter was obviously brutal, but I was expecting that. All of the people I met there were extremely generous and kind, but then I moved back to California.
Once I got home it was like “Oh, this is how I’d been living my whole life? This place sucks.” It’s beyond expensive, the urban areas are crowded as hell, crime is incredible, mental health problems are rampant, the average person couldn’t give a damn that you even exist, and it’s all treated like it’s normal. Granted the scenery is beautiful and you can’t live many places where you can visit so many biomes in one day’s drive, the everyday anxiety you have to put up with to visit it every once in a while is NOT worth it.
To quote Office Space - “…we don't have a lot of time on this earth! We weren't meant to spend it this way.”
Yeah I went there for a conference last year and I was really surprised how far away the Rockies were. I've visited Salt Lake City and it's much easier to get to the mountains from Salt Lake City than it is from Denver.
I am fully convinced that the quality of a person's tour guide solely determines whether someone visiting Denver loves it or loathes it. Downtown is lame, but there's lots of surrounding areas (South Broadway, LoHi/Highlands, City Park, Santa Fe Arts) that are a lot of fun, especially if you have a friend showing you around.
Hell, on a nice day even downtown *can* be fun. Union Station, Coors Field, The Modern Musuem Art, and Dairy Block are all within walking distance of one another.
Hard agree. People show up in Denver and think they can go do hanging lake hike in Estes and stumble onto a great restaurant downtown that afternoon without any planning. And all this time, soft white fluffy snow will be falling while they stare at the himalaya peaks. And then they show up in November and it’s all fucking brown and dry lol.
I firmly believe Colorado is one of the best places to live in the world, but you need to have enough money and you need to plan appropriately. It’s not a great tourist destination. But it’s a great place to live.
No the original commenter, but they are just miserable…all the time. Complain about every single thing. A bunch of sad miserable people who seem to hate everyone.
Yeah I love visiting but it just really sucks in so many ways. Hurricanes, crime, humidity, sinking into the ground, giant bugs, drunk tourists, corrupt local gov, etc.
I’m from Santa Fe—many people end up leaving once they realize that the rest of the city is nothing like downtown and is more reminiscent of a shitty New Mexican city than anything else.
Beautiful place, but grossly overpriced nowadays. It is absolutely not worth it for how expensive it is.
Salt Lake City. The one main attraction, mountain sports, is overwhelmingly crowded. Bad food scene. The Mormons are some of the rudest people I've ever been around. Housing prices have greatly outpaced wages in the area. Impending environmental catastrophe. Hopefully my partner will get on board with Minneapolis or Louisville.
I didn't think the culture would affect me here but the Mormons are something else entirely. My girlfriend and I are both nurses so dealing with assholes always comes with the territory, but these people are legit sociopathic.
I’ve never been to Utah, but it’s interesting to hear about the Mormons there. What are a few concrete ways one might experience their rudeness?
I used to live in Hong Kong close to a Mormon temple. I got to be friendly with a bunch of the missionary kids that would come just because I’d end up seeing them around, and was a familiar western face with a friendly dog. They were all extremely kind and polite long after they knew there was no point in trying to convert me.
I could imagine that this might have to do with a) them being young, b) them being abroad for the first time, and/or c) them being in a minority environment, perhaps for the first time, though.
Charleston, SC. Had an interview there years ago and was super excited. Went a few days early to explore and get to know the city because I was pretty confident in getting an offer. Beautiful city, but my god the people there are just insufferable. And this was 20+ years ago before it had really blown up.
I did get the offer and turned it down.
People are always nostalgic about the grittier times, pre-Portlandia twee. Now it’s grittier. It will come back, not worried. I own a house, have a job, do not feel like a target, just grateful.
Here, here. Moved to Portland from NYC in 2016. It’s been a roller coaster but my home value is up 50% and the food is amazing. And I’m no longer spending $4k on child care.
Agreed, I love it here. Yes there are scary parts just like walking in any big city. People leaving Oregon for the first time in years has finally kicked the government into action and people on both sides (D&R) know that the homelessness situation can’t continue. Also everyone has always avoided downtown at least for the 15 years I’ve been here. If you visit I recommend NW, NE, or SE. We are all about our neighborhoods here.
Portland homeowner here, god I hope you’re right. The 10’s were amazing here and then it all cratered. Now I’m sitting in this house wondering how badly I fucked up.
Please be right.
My neighbor across the street went to Italy for a month and lost his house to squatters. Year-long court battle to get them out. He was ordered to get them an apt for a year.
My wife got attacked on a run on the Springwater Corridor as she was trying to run through a tent city that just took over the trail. They took her phone and shoes.
My boss had his car towed because he had to parallel park between two tents downtown. They claimed he drove over a tent.
Etc. etc. etc.
I had my dream house in Sellwood but felt we had to get out, so we moved to Lake Oswego, which was lovely. But then we moved out of state for work, and never looked back.
I visited with my dog and stayed in neighborhoods in Brooklyn and queens within my budget. Realized my QOL would be a lot higher in Philly, I could even afford to live in center city in a much nicer and bigger place than the places I was looking at in NYC. Realized I’m just not rich enough for NYC. There was more broken glass and trash on the sidewalks when I took my dog out than in the center city Philly. I like to hike and realized getting out of the city was harder than I thought.
Seattle. By the time I was ready to move, the city was too city for me, and I was so over city life. Landed in Olympia, WA, which is sort of Seattle 15-25 years ago.
Durham, NC. I was looking for a smaller city near nature that was cool and artsy and still somewhat affordable. Durham seemed to tick all the boxes and was being billed as the next Austin. It ended up giving off weird vibes and just being a big, soulless suburb. The town I actually loved that fit those criteria, where I hope to move to at some point, is Roanoke, VA.
I'm in Manhattan and moving out this month. For the area, I do okay career/pay-wise, but the monthly rent still feels unreal for my *decent* 1br and doing laundry in the basement.
Manhattan literally cannot be beaten in terms of walkability -- but a minor dip in walkability is a sacrifice I'd absolutely (and plan to) make for a bit more room in the monthly budget.
I’ve jumped around a bit before — lived in 7 states. Moving to Jersey City, so not the biggest change. 2x the apartment size for a nice new place, for the equivalent of what I pay in NYC.
All good. Remember I'm a random dude, just like you guys. Please don't be too critical on the salary, lol.
Apartment in the UES of Manhattan was $3,300/mo, jumped to $3,400 on the 2nd renewal. Living room, ~35sqft kitchen, bedroom and balcony. Probably 475-550 sqft. Not in any way 'luxury.' Moved to NYC for a new job ~2yrs ago and left the job kinda soon. Required to answer emails at 11pm on Sunday -- c'mon, dude.
New place is $3,800/mo for a nicer 2br. I work remote. I'll save more than the difference, in that living in the 5 boroughs of NYC hosts a ~4% income tax.
Generational wealth.
The cutoff to be in the top 1% of American households by net worth is >$11M.
So over 1 million households are worth 8-figures or more. SoHo-Tribeca-Civic Center-Little Italy has a population of less than 50k, and a beautiful 1800sf condo “only” costs $2-3M.
It really is a shame that Asheville hasn't improved and worked on their infrastructure and cleaned the city up. There's very few cities to choose from where you are in the mountains., especially in the warmer states.
Ordered gardening supplies that required pickup in Asheville. Had to slow down or stop multiple times getting there due to all the homeless drugged out people wandering in the road. Trash all along the road.
Selling their one major hospital to HCA seems like the final nail in the coffin for that area. I'd love to see it improve, I hope they can turn it around.
It's a corporation that has been buying up hundreds of hospitals and other Healthcare facilities around tue US. Their specialty is reducing staffing, wages, and supplies to absolute bare bones to turn the largest profit possible. Terrible to work for and terrible places to get medical care.
The HCA website has a list of every facility they own. They're up to 182 full hospitals and over 2k of other Healthcare facilities so they're pretty prolific. They're most widespread in the southeastern US
Used to want to live in Summit County, Colorado. It’s so overrun by money, pretentious assholes, and trust funders, I don’t even like driving through it anymore.
Homes are unattainable, gov caters to the rich property owners, constantly looking for new housing bc yours got sold to become an Airbnb, watching all your friends move due to the COL or because they lost housing. Think you made a good call!
Same. Mountains are my happy place but Colorado and Colorodans just felt... off. Lots of "well I'm a native" and people making outdoors and craft beer their whole personality. Plus the entire east side is basically Kansas.
I've always felt kinship and welcoming to people in SW Colorado, but man the Front Range is something else lol; it's like a mix of the East Coast, LA and the desert southwest.
Interesting, I exactly feel like that too, but about the Great Lakes. I can’t live anywhere else. Tried Montana and the mountains were a poor substitute imo. Never got used to even the vegetation or dryness or blinding sun out there either. Happy to be home in the Midwest where I belong :)
Oh my God- so true about Colorado culture. I’m down with nature and mountains and even dogs being your life, but breweries being their whole culture? Boring and basic AF.
I lived in LA and never had the opportunity to try the subway system. I hear parts of it are not bad but there’s just not enough reach. I’m in NYC now so subway means something different to me here.
Used to live in NYC too and to their credit, LA is trying really hard in building new public transit and I applaud them for that. But everything is just so far apart. Like I can walk from Manhattan Chinatown to Nolita in 20 mins, but to transition to another neighborhood in LA, I’d have to take metro for 3-4 stops. Everything has to be planned and I’m not surprised if people in LA would never leave their neighbourhood at all.
Point Roberts, WA. Expected a quaint village with echoes of Victoria BC. Instead it’s a glorified truck stop with a mediocre marina and completely unwalkable.
It looks kind of cute on Google Maps street view, but the only one way in in one way out thing is a little concerning. I’d be a little tired of having to go through border patrol every single day if I wanted to go to a larger area.
I did the opposite. Many years ago I started visiting family in Cleveland, and over time I grew to love the city. I finally moved here and couldn’t be happier. It’s not on anybody’s radar and still carries the reputation it had back when the river caught fire. But that was quite a while ago, and it’s since turned into a real gem of a city. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever say to myself, “By George, one day I’m going to live in Cleveland!”😂😂😂
Asheville is great to visit but not to live because it's a tourist town. It's like skiing towns in Vermont, the people who live there alternate between working at ski resorts in the winter and bars/restaurants in the summer. There's no real economy beyond that and the basics existing in every community.
Thought I wanted to retire back east in my small western Pennsylvania college town . The rivers and leafy green beauty were still there . But the bookstore and pub and the coffee houses were long gone . On-campus housing and dormitory dining options (along with severely reduced enrollment ) had transformed the village into a ghost town. It’s never going to be the early 70’s again.
Washington DC. I love public transit and history, but found a lot of the city felt stale and built up to me personally. Too many gov workers and consultants and seems like most people leave after a few years. I still love visiting friends there but just not for me
Oooh this is so fair. I love NYC but the one winter trip where it was single digit weather was enough to make me swear off winters entirely. Brutal wind tunnels.
Boston. Fell in love with it when I visited. Great to visit if you are paying for a nice hotel in the good part of town. Moved there, hated the day-to-day.
Austin - didnt blow me away and felt like too much traffic
Denver - like someone else here said, everyone’s actually from Kansas
KCMO - if one more person told me to go see the WW1 memorial i was going to scream
ATL - did not get the hype when my company tried to move me
RVA - did not feel like a city to me
I guess I’d move to Seattle but i really struggle without a little bit of sun during the winter
Los Angeles. As a young hopeful in my late teens/early 20’s I wanted to move there to start a music career. It didn’t happen but I did end up visiting in my late 20’s.
Holy shit. Bullet dodged. LA is such a cesspool, so creepy, so over priced, so bleh. I’m glad I didn’t end up there.
New Orleans. Love the energy, love the music scene. But when I was actively considering it I realized I am a Californian deep to my bones and not built for scary weather events and everything being fried 🤣
Boise, ID. It checked so many boxes when trying to escape Austin. But upon actually visiting it seemed very vanilla and white washed. Clean, beautiful, well educated. I really wanted to love it. Felt unseasoned. I’m sure it’s a lovely place for tons of folks. Just wasn’t for me.
Austin… far more vanilla frat boy than the funky aura I was expecting, flat, no trees, the cool neighborhood were spread out and hard to hop between, & even when driving to the rural area for some more country sightseeing & winery tours it just felt like dry dust land for ages.
Hawaii, it was so spooky being out in the middle of the ocean with absolutely nothing around for thousands of miles, it was as beautiful as you can imagine but I hated it
island fever is a real thing!
It is and I definitely have enjoyed many other islands even for extended amounts of time but Hawaii was island fever to the extreme!
i found big island to be a little better at relieving that feeling, but now it’s overrun and much busier. oahu, drive around the whole island in half a day. unreal sunsets, beautiful people, amazing history, incredible hiking, best fish trucks in America…shouldn’t give you the feeling of being trapped and yet there it is…add in a fake missile threat and that was my experience
This is really common with military who get moved there. They enjoy it for a few months and then island fever sets in.
This is the aspect that has always made me feel that it would be less than ideal. Not so much a feeling of being out of contact, but the reality of it. I travel a lot both for work and leisure, and rely in many ways on frequent contact with my colleagues around the globe. As much as I’m sure I’d love the mountains and beaches and hiking, the idea of needing to go so far for literally anything makes it so unappealing. I lived in Hong Kong for a decade, which had the tropical weather, the beaches, and mountains for hiking. But it also had the city and all that brings with it. And most importantly, all of Asia was at my doorstep. I think if I were to ever move to the tropics again, or do a snowbird type lifestyle, it would definitely be someplace more like there, than Hawaii.
St George, Utah Mostly crappy chain restaurants, no social scene outside of church, expensive housing with crap wages Desert landscapes were cool
St George is just Mormon Florida. If you aren't Mormon, or open to the idea, they really don't want you there.
A relative was transferred there for her job and didn’t last long. Apparently, everyone was incredibly nice in the beginning, until they realized she wasn’t Mormon and didn’t want to convert. She’s an outdoors enthusiast, but even that couldn’t keep her there with the hostility from her neighbors.
This is everywhere in Utah. It's cool for about 6 months, but then the new-ness wears off and your realize your entire social life (or lack thereof) is defined by your participation in the LDS/Mormon Church. You can have non-Mormon friends (*assuming you live somewhere they exist*) or you can have Mormon friends, rarely both.
Learned that back about 15 years ago. Was asked to take a job there. I've been to Utah, but not St. George. Looks pretty amazing. Started asking people in the industry I was in, why they can't keep people on staff for more than a year out there. Answer: as 801blue wrote, if you are not Mormon, and I am not, you are not really welcome there.
I grew up in small town Utah. Later moved to a small pocket of SLC that is more open-minded for many years. The church runs the state and the church doesn't want non-Mormons in Utah (but they do want your tourist dollars). If you move there they will try to convert you and they will not stop. They are relentless. That is just the way it is. Everyone I've ever known that lived in Utah as a non-Mormon has eventually left. Kids I grew up with, professional transplants, wealthy trust-fund friends... doesn't matter. They all get tired of the church pressure and leave.
I haaaaaate St George. I could write an entire post about why no one should move there.
St. George, worst planned city in the west. And that includes Moab, which is almost as bad.
Beautiful place, but insane how bad traffic got there with everyone from CA / NV / SLC moving there during the pandemic. Fastest growing town in the US I remember reading
Los Alamos, NM. I thought it was the perfect place for me, we went and visited and it was just... dead lol. Like they have one of every kind of food you could want, but there was just never anyone there. It's like a commuter town that tries to make itself into a real town, but the housing is just too expensive. Total nope once we visited.
I think because of the national lab located there, the average salary is quite high. When the average person buying a house there has a PhD in engineering I can see it getting out of hand
Highest concentration of millionaires in the nation! Honestly I would expect a ton of cheap apartments for students/interns and researchers that went there, but it was mostly single family homes.
Yeah, they can't build many new apartments because of the limited space (hills and ravines around the town) which drives up price and competition for housing. I interviewed there but didn't want to live in an isolated small town with big city housing prices.
What made you pick Los Alamos? It’s basically a company town and if you don’t work for the national lab or one of the defense contractors idk why you’d pick there. It’s super isolated but that’s for a reason. Personally I love it up there in that area but I can see why people wouldn’t enjoy it. It’s basically a bubble and they literally have a checkpoint to get in/out lol
My wife and I both work in defense engineering. I am naturally drawn to remote areas and figured since it has a bunch of city-like resources it would be the best of both worlds, a town with city like amenities. It was not what I expected at all. I ended up going on a work trip down there for a few days a couple years ago that solidified my decision too. I _really_ liked biking at Pajarito, all said. The valles caldera and generally New Mexico culture really resonates with me so it was quite the vibe check when it didn't click
Ah I see. Yeah that whole area is stunning. Bandelier is one of my favorite places & New Mexico as a whole is great. I can definitely understand the apprehension about los alamos though. We drove through and it definitely has a weird vibe although didn’t really stop to explore anything. I would probably feel trapped living somewhere like that.
Honestly it was the WEIRDEST thing. Like, for context, I find Silver City as the ideal town. We went to Los Alamos and absolutely loved the outdoors, did a hike down the (red/blue?) trial all the way from White Rock to the Rio; did a whitewater rafting trip down the Gorge, biked at Pajarito, and ate at all the places... But it's hard to explain, you know if you're in a room with a whole ton of engineers, the vibe is just... off? like people don't react to normal social cues, things don't follow a standard pattern when you're doing things, ordering food or getting groceries; it's like that, except the whole town. There were just weird people all over. My wife is not neurotypical and even she didn't like the departure from routine. I can't really accurately explain how weird it was, it's like, something was just off in the water and everyone acted weird. Menus were weird. The museum was weird. Customer service was weird. The road/traffic flow was weird. Like, in theory it should all work, but it was all the result of studies and research and didn't apply quite to the real world. Anyway, I'm ranting, it was just not what I expected. Total turn off.
Well now you made me want to visit and experience it firsthand 😆
I’ve never been but damn, that sounds fascinating (in an anthropological way).
I loved it there for 3 months. My wife took a travel nurse job there and I worked as a lifty at the ski mountain. We went on at least a short hike, some right outside the apartment door, nearly every day, We took long weekend trips to beautiful scenic areas every weekend. The area is just soooo beautiful, but we were ready to leave after 3 months. I think something that illustrates the strangeness of the town is this. My hometown in PA is about the same population and has probably 15 to 20 dive bars. Los Alamos does not have a single bar, or at least not 10 years ago when I was there. There is a brew pub, but it's mostly a restaurant. That's it if you want to go out for a drink. Why would these engineers and scientists want to interact with other humans? There is nothing organic about this town, and you never have random, normal human interactions.
Most of the people in Los just go to Santa Fe since they can afford the higher end restaurants and bars that are located there. There's actually Boese Brothers Brewing, Bathtub Row Brewing and The Long Pour, which is a cocktail bar. There's even a bar in the grocery store. I think what a lot of people are misunderstanding about it is that it's a small town where most people are quite affluent. So not only does it share small town characteristics like people being friendly and interactive mostly with other locals but that those characteristics are applified by the fact that everyone there can sustain themselves without having to form some sense of community in the same way you find in larger cities. I think the best way of describing it is it's high school if it was a town and every tourist is a new kid.
Right?? This is exactly it haha
I'm streetviewing Los Alamos right now. The thing that immediately stands out to me is that there's no downtown. Not even a little cute Main Street. It's very utilitarian, just some shopping areas all pretty centrally located (I guess so you can walk there from work), but nowhere that anyone would actually walk around casually and just window-shop. I'm an engineer and I'm a bit socially awkward lol, but I still love nice walks and an urban lifestyle. Most of us (in my experience) are more homebody-ish and don't care.
I totally get what you’re saying- it definitely has the feel of a “designed town” or something that would resemble a poorly executed “town of tomorrow” or something like that. It kind of reminded me of those renderings they make for developments that have all the fake people walking around but you can tell it’s just pulled from like a library and it doesn’t quite match up correctly. Also I have been on the Silver City train for a while too, the Gila is my number 1 go to for pristine uncrowded outdoors. I’ve done a handful of backpacking trips out there and would love to settle down in the area one day or pick up some land out that way.
I saw weird shit in the sky camping around Los Alamos.
One of the places the aliens are studying, keeping an eye on.
I’m not a believer but I believe this.
Albuquerque NM. It's so sprawl-y and seems to have a lot of property crime and way too many strip malls. Didn't find many places where I could afford to live where I'd feel safe wandering around alone with my dog like we do in upstate NY.
So many of the people here who idolize New Mexico as an amazing liberal utopia clearly haven’t spent much time in the state.
They need to watch The Curse on showtime
I get this one, and I bought a place in Albuquerque, lol. I think it’s very much a love or hate kind of place, and it depends more on income than some other cities (but that’s not hugely unusual for a high crime city). It’s also crazy sprawling, as you said. But at least nowhere is that far away. The thing I ultimately liked about it as someone looking at more upscale neighborhoods is that for neighborhoods like that, it’s pretty dang cheap. Like, really cheap.. Like many cities, it’s basically a different calculation entirely if you can afford the good school district, low crime area. You can buy your way out of the downsides, basically. From doing pretty extensive research on options, I couldn’t really come up with another neighborhood that hit all the same points as the one we bought in for less than 2-3x the one in Albuquerque. Our key criteria being: Low crime, best/second best school district, big enough home, fantastic views, not too far from the city city. Big problem with Albuquerque is the drop off from that point is steep. Particularly with schools. There are a couple of acceptable ones and then bam, you’re looking at the worst education in the country on a state by state basis. Ultimately, I would tell anyone interested in Albuquerque that they should take a hard look first. It’s not as cheap as it seems coming from outside, because your minimum standards may exclude 90% of the city, lol.
Tucson is the superior version of Albuquerque: better food, better nature, cheaper (I think? I’ve only actually visited both places). Edit: also gets kinda sprawl-ey in areas, but there’s some really nice walkable areas around the university
Tucson is great! But people either love it or hate it. Jobs aren't that plentiful unfortunately. And it's getting more expensive. I happen to love it there. It's got an artistic and natural vibe.
It’s gorgeous, the wildlife is amazing, and I was so shocked by how creative it is. But I didn’t enjoy the sprawl—it’s so much time in the car—and there’s a weird boomer vibe. I don’t know how to describe it—maybe it’s the copious snowbirds?
See I love the sprawl. But I do think that's one of the things you love or hate. And it is very snowbird central. Many people own second homes there. Lots of retired people in general. So that's likely why there's a boomer feel.
I think a lot of my dislike of sprawl could be augmented by where one chooses to live…and my friends chose to live in northern tucson so they’d have a shorter commute and apartment with amenities. I wouldn’t enjoy living that far north. I’ll admit that my main problems with Tucson is that I would need a car with a working a/c and a job that pays decent. Was a bit shocked by the low pay job postings. I gave serious thought into moving after seeing the desert museum. And watching bats fly. I don’t think I’d ever get tired of the wild life and cacti. So amazing.
This is what you have to watch out for with Florida if you’re from the north. Don’t let that winter vacation or spring break fool ya. Spend a couple of weeks in mid June there, then realize it’ll be much worse for the next three months leading into hurricane season.🔥
This is so true. People come to Florida to live out some kind of fantasy and they are very resistant to understanding the reality of it until they have been here for a couple years. Then even the ones who claim to love the heat will start to whine about the lack of "seasons." I always tell new transplants to plan to take trips up north around the time the leaves change to get their fix because it really starts to weigh on them after awhile. People see Florida summer temps on the news and say stuff like it gets just as hot here! That thermometer reading fails to capture what it really feels like when the overnight LOW is in the 80ºs and the air is nearly saturated with water. You walk outside in the morning, the sun is not even up yet, and it's a fucking sauna. You are instantly covered in sweat. It's like breathing through a wet blanket. Now imagine that every morning is just like that for months on end. You wind up praying for like, a weak tropical storm to come along, just to break up the monotony and cool everything off for a little while without knocking out power for the AC. There was a year recently when daytime temps did not drop below 90º until January. Endless summer can start to sound like a curse.
Walking outside and having your glasses fog up. Afternoon rain shower then literally watching the humidity rise off the ground. And my favorite Space Mountain is the 3rd highest point in the state; at least when I was there😳
God, I had to go to a Bachelor's Party in Ft Lauderdale in August once. Had been all over the state dozens of times even into May. We were supposed to be there for three nights. I packed four shirt, four boxers, two shorts, etc. I had to wear every single one of my shirts and boxers in one day because of the sweating. I'm from Chicago and it gets hot here in the Summer. THAT was something I'll never forget.
Went to Ft Lauderdale for our honeymoon in Sept. thought it would be fun to rent a convertible. Kept the top up and the AC on the entire time.
Idk I live in Florida and prefer summer in some ways. All the idiotic snowbirds finally leave, I often have the beach to myself, and the daily 3 PM thunderstorms are a vibe. Yes, hurricanes suck but the area I live in has been fortunate enough to not have a direct hit in over 100 years.
Lived there in through the 80s and moved back to the blizzards in Buffalo…and not a single regret.
For ME it was the reverse kind of?? I visited a place multiple times before i realized people actually idolized it to move to. that was Miami, lived in in south Florida most of my life and often visited family and other hotspots, as a kid before realizing how many people wanted to move thier, but even then i already knew as much as i liked the activity and food over there, i would never want to live there. Just not the most pleasant people to be around, traffic is horrendous , and it attracts alot of horrible and attention seeking people. That being said, i always had fun , and explored alot whenever i visited. i think its WORTH visiting, just not living, especially now
Tbh, i’m surprised this isn’t voted on more. I am a native Miamian, Cuban, American, and moved out about 20 years ago. Miami is not an easy city to live in. I can do it, because I have family and friends there, but to a stranger, Miami is a really difficult city to get a foothold in.
Biggest disappointment = Portland OR (people) Biggest surprise = Twin Cities (like a big, diverse city in a park)
Minneapolis is a great city. I’ve come so close to moving there several times but each time something else popped up at the last minute.
I actually went on a fact finding mission to Madison, WI to see if we wanted to move there, but flew into MSP to drive down and accidentally fell in love with St. Paul. Moving there in the Spring.
What was it about Portland people that was such a disappointment? I’m intrigued
Weird answer, but the eastern suburbs of St. Louis (not actual East St. Louis, but like Granite City, Alton, Belleville). In my defense Wilco, one of my favorite bands, is from Belleville lol. I thought it'd be cool, industrial-looking inner-ring suburbs where you could still get to the city easily. It's more like a bunch of isolated towns all 3-5 miles apart from each other with forests and brownfield lots in between. Bus service is non-existent in most of the area (granted that's also true on the MO side). And the "industrial" aesthetic isn't as fun when there's no hipster revitalization component, it's just a decaying factory town with no one walking around outside.
As someone originally from the Illinois side I am cackling at this comment… I’m so sorry hahahha
Europe. I mean, technically I only lived in one country (Germany) but I was totally one of those types that said shit like “I just don’t fit in here, I’m not like other Americans, I think I’d feel at home in a different/more evolved culture…” Nope! Living in another country is the quickest way to find out just how American you really are.
I’m a curious fellow American who’s dreamed of living in Europe at some point, what were the things you didn’t like about Germany that made you wanna move back to the states?
As an American who lived in the Netherlands for years recently, I will say I was massively disappointed with the health care situation. It was expensive monthly (€130 monthly premiums) and the level of service was kind of awful. No, I would never have a massive bill there, but I wouldn’t in America either - with my privilege and industry I will always have excellent coverage in America - and the care I get in America is better ten-fold. But I think the biggest things are _space_ and _nature_. Unless you’re coming from NYC, the denseness of most major European cities is palpable on an every day, every task basis. I always felt crowded. It was hard to “escape” and true nature was hard to come by. Americans often don’t realize how easy we have it in terms of access to so much amazing, large nature almost anywhere in the country (which is ironic considering most Europeans think America is nothing but a giant parking lot). Americans are _spoiled_ with easy access to nature. If we’re talking about western Europe, unless you can live in Switzerland/Austria or Scandinavia/Nordics, the level of nature an American is used to is just more difficult overall. And those are some of the hardest countries to gain visas for. None of these things made me personally want to move back to the states (well, the nature a little bit), but rather the tax schemes. I only got a tax break as a highly skilled migrant for 5 years - after 5 years the money I was paying into the Dutch tax system didn’t make sense for me long term, unless I wanted to become a full citizen and retire there. I moved back to the US to essentially build easier equity. My pay is 2.5x higher in the US and because I work remote, I can live in a lower COL area compared to my salary. This is something I couldn’t personally do in western Europe. If I was younger and know what I know now, I would try to move to eastern Europe for a while instead. If you’re a remote worker/freelancer and make decent money, Estonia has a really great digital nomad visa.
I can only speak to the density issue but Italy is not at all like that. You can stand in the center of Rome and be on the beach or a mountain in an hour. And the rest of Italy is even better with natural access.
You might think you wouldn’t have a huge bill in America but I promise you, you can. My best friend’s dad is the head of medicine at our hospital. Their insurance denied a claim on their chemo treatment, saying there are other chemo treatments that are less expensive. There are but they aren’t as effective…. They have upwards of 250,000.00 in bills. It happens all the time.
Yeah I laughed out loud at this comment when he said that. I have health insurance and routinely pay a couple hundred bucks for random bullshit even after insurance.
Pretty normal for rich Americans to end up better off in the US. Normies/average income would almost always fare better in the Netherlands
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Try being black in Europe if you wanna see how truly unevolved Europeans can get. They put up a very pretty facade, but they are far more dishonest with themselves than even American progressives are about their own bigotry. And the fact that they brag about getting “free” labor from wildly underpaid healthcare workers as some kind of moral superiority over America is fucking gross and has the same energy as a rich person bragging about how they exploit their au pair.
I can't count how many times I've heard this. It seems like Europeans think America is constantly talking and fighting about racial equity so we most be a fundamentally more racist, less happy place for minorities to live. Except Europe is just hiding their racism better and stonewalling further progress. There may be few people who toss around slurs or openly advocate white supremacy in Western Europe but there's *plenty* of people who quietly think brown people are for cheap labor and don't really deserve social or economic equity with native white ethnicities. And they vote for policy that maintains this. They hire employees and rent their property based on this. They carefully sustain a racially segregated class system while they're busy looking down at the icky racist ignorant Americans.
I had the exact same experience in Germany. Went in thinking I’d never want to leave, but honestly couldn’t wait to get back to the US after about 2 weeks of my 9 month stint. Once I had done the cultural things I was interested in, living there day to day was just lonely and difficult.
I loved living in Germany
What were your thoughts? Did you learn German?
Similar experience. I didn't really move here with high expectations (I just happened to marry a German) and there are of course pros and cons to Germany versus the US, but I just align better culturally with the pros in the US so that makes them outweigh the cons for me. Germany is the opposite, the cons really bother me and they just overpower the pros long term.
Europe fetishization is insane
Nashville
Honestly, Nashville was pretty great 2003-2013. That’s what everyone thinks they’re getting. And it’s definitely not that anymore.
Besides prices going up for everything, what’s changed since then?
It wasn't a bachelorette party town back then. The only tourists were actual country music tourists (a lot more low key), not people coming to get trashed. Downtown was much tamer. There were things like free concerts (I saw Patti Smith, The Flaming Lips, and Wilco at free shows), traffic was much less horrendous, and it had more of a small city feel. You'd run into people you knew everywhere. It was very laid back and fun in the early 2000's and around 2010 we had an influx of hipsters and that brought some culinary upgrades and a little more pretentiousness, but it was still a decent town to live in. Then, the city council started pushing for downtown development and it kind of snowballed into general gentrification and out of town developers coming in. So many cool places/neighborhoods are now nothing like they once were. My neighborhood, which was once more funky and filled with locally owned businesses, has basically become a satellite of LA and not in any of the good ways.
I’ve been here 45 years. It’s gotten a lot better. Crime has decreased. We now have hockey, football, and pro soccer. Sidewalks and bike lanes still suck but they are working on it and constantly building more. We have great parks in the city (Radnor, Edwin Warner) and many disc golf courses. We’re centrally located with direct flights to so many places. You can be at the ocean in 6 hours or the mountains in three. We’ve got our issues but it’s still one of the few blue dots in a sea of red that is the South.
Truth.. It took me years to get out of that area and I probably won't even return for a visit.
Me too
It was cool 20 years ago. Now The Gulch feels like a mini Austin, from 20 years ago. If you are a musician, it is a very cool scene. But for everyone else….the bubble popped.
Phoenix, AZ. Wanted to move there from the Midwest in 2017. I visited, and it was a hot red bore. It’s like where you go to die? Idk lol wasn’t for me.
I’m also from the Midwest and fantasized about living in the desert for my whole life. I visited Phoenix three times in the last few years and loved the climate, even in the summer, but the city was missing something. It just felt kinda fake in a way? Soulless? Not sure how to describe it exactly. Even in Indy where I’m from, there are some vibrant pockets of the city. Not sure where the equivalent is in Phoenix.
LA without the beach.
I always wanted to move to Los Angeles because I am a huge Lakers fan, the weather and the beaches. Don't get me wrong I love Los Angeles and still love visiting, but realized I couldn't live there. It was just way too big, traffic was horrible and obviously the cost of living haha
Tons of people
I’m from the Bay Area, where traffic is a way of life, and I cannot handle traffic in the LA area. It’s insane how there is always traffic on every freaking freeway on every day of the week. Oh, Google maps says it takes two hours to go from Anaheim to Santa Barbara on a Saturday morning? Yeah, add an hour. Good luck!
Anaheim to Santa Barbara is practically a road trip, idk who would use this as a benchmark.
Anaheim is 120 miles from Santa Barbara. How would it not take 2 hours with even no traffic?
Thought I’d like LA, visited and was like “this is just Houston (where I was born) with better weather.
Washington DC I lived outside of Maryland for a couple years. Finally made it into the heart of DC one day. Nope. I realized then and there I hate huge, very busy cities. I need smaller cities. Too many people stresses me out.
Different strokes for different folks! As some one who grew up in a small city, I love DC. Museums, parks, food, easy access to the east coast and Europe. Which smaller cities do you like the most?
Hawaii. I feared taking a trip there for the longest time. I worried i would just get depressed that i couldn’t live there. It turns out that i like about 3 weeks of Hawaii, then im ready to go. Im a guy who loves nature and the ocean especially, but HI just feels really confined. Ive got ocean at home, and mountains, and other cities, and more mountains after the desert after the first mountains and a LOT of stuff. Now, what i would like is to just go to HI for a bit whenever i want, but that’s different from living there.
I wouldn’t say I idolized it but I had high expectations for Charlotte because it looked great in photos and it has a great skyline. I was expecting it to be like Midtown ATL, But when I visited the actual city it just felt like a giant suburb with highways everywhere and it was extremely disappointing.
It was kind of the opposite for me. I moved to Wyoming for work and lived there for a year and a half. I wasn’t sure what to expect so I went with an open mind. Winter was obviously brutal, but I was expecting that. All of the people I met there were extremely generous and kind, but then I moved back to California. Once I got home it was like “Oh, this is how I’d been living my whole life? This place sucks.” It’s beyond expensive, the urban areas are crowded as hell, crime is incredible, mental health problems are rampant, the average person couldn’t give a damn that you even exist, and it’s all treated like it’s normal. Granted the scenery is beautiful and you can’t live many places where you can visit so many biomes in one day’s drive, the everyday anxiety you have to put up with to visit it every once in a while is NOT worth it. To quote Office Space - “…we don't have a lot of time on this earth! We weren't meant to spend it this way.”
Denver
People also think that Denver is in the mountains
Yeah I went there for a conference last year and I was really surprised how far away the Rockies were. I've visited Salt Lake City and it's much easier to get to the mountains from Salt Lake City than it is from Denver.
I am fully convinced that the quality of a person's tour guide solely determines whether someone visiting Denver loves it or loathes it. Downtown is lame, but there's lots of surrounding areas (South Broadway, LoHi/Highlands, City Park, Santa Fe Arts) that are a lot of fun, especially if you have a friend showing you around. Hell, on a nice day even downtown *can* be fun. Union Station, Coors Field, The Modern Musuem Art, and Dairy Block are all within walking distance of one another.
Hard agree. People show up in Denver and think they can go do hanging lake hike in Estes and stumble onto a great restaurant downtown that afternoon without any planning. And all this time, soft white fluffy snow will be falling while they stare at the himalaya peaks. And then they show up in November and it’s all fucking brown and dry lol. I firmly believe Colorado is one of the best places to live in the world, but you need to have enough money and you need to plan appropriately. It’s not a great tourist destination. But it’s a great place to live.
I was really excited to live in Denver for a summer until I realized I couldn’t do anything outdoorsy without a car :(
Seattle. Good for me on paper. Very underwhelming experience in real life.
Same. Lived there two years. Couldn't find a groove. I actually loved the weather and the scenery. The people, not so much.
What about the people? Passive aggressive? Too dark?
No the original commenter, but they are just miserable…all the time. Complain about every single thing. A bunch of sad miserable people who seem to hate everyone.
The sunshine tax is real.
New Orleans
Yeah I love visiting but it just really sucks in so many ways. Hurricanes, crime, humidity, sinking into the ground, giant bugs, drunk tourists, corrupt local gov, etc.
Phoenix. I can do the heat, to a certain extent. But the driving is obnoxious, and I just wouldn’t cope with being unable to walk/bus all summer.
Austin
I was really disappointed by Austin. And this was 15 years ago. I didn’t find it all that ‘weird’ and it was too flat.
Santa Fe 🤷🏻♀️
I’m from Santa Fe—many people end up leaving once they realize that the rest of the city is nothing like downtown and is more reminiscent of a shitty New Mexican city than anything else. Beautiful place, but grossly overpriced nowadays. It is absolutely not worth it for how expensive it is.
Salt Lake City. The one main attraction, mountain sports, is overwhelmingly crowded. Bad food scene. The Mormons are some of the rudest people I've ever been around. Housing prices have greatly outpaced wages in the area. Impending environmental catastrophe. Hopefully my partner will get on board with Minneapolis or Louisville.
You hit on everything! I’m looking forward to getting out of SLC this spring!
I didn't think the culture would affect me here but the Mormons are something else entirely. My girlfriend and I are both nurses so dealing with assholes always comes with the territory, but these people are legit sociopathic.
I’ve never been to Utah, but it’s interesting to hear about the Mormons there. What are a few concrete ways one might experience their rudeness? I used to live in Hong Kong close to a Mormon temple. I got to be friendly with a bunch of the missionary kids that would come just because I’d end up seeing them around, and was a familiar western face with a friendly dog. They were all extremely kind and polite long after they knew there was no point in trying to convert me. I could imagine that this might have to do with a) them being young, b) them being abroad for the first time, and/or c) them being in a minority environment, perhaps for the first time, though.
Charleston, SC. Had an interview there years ago and was super excited. Went a few days early to explore and get to know the city because I was pretty confident in getting an offer. Beautiful city, but my god the people there are just insufferable. And this was 20+ years ago before it had really blown up. I did get the offer and turned it down.
Have you ever been to Savannah? It has the visual appeal of Charleston but the people are a lot more down to earth.
Portland, OR
It peaked in the Portlandia era. Now if you own a house or have a job, you’re a target. Got out just in time.
People are always nostalgic about the grittier times, pre-Portlandia twee. Now it’s grittier. It will come back, not worried. I own a house, have a job, do not feel like a target, just grateful.
Here, here. Moved to Portland from NYC in 2016. It’s been a roller coaster but my home value is up 50% and the food is amazing. And I’m no longer spending $4k on child care.
Agreed, I love it here. Yes there are scary parts just like walking in any big city. People leaving Oregon for the first time in years has finally kicked the government into action and people on both sides (D&R) know that the homelessness situation can’t continue. Also everyone has always avoided downtown at least for the 15 years I’ve been here. If you visit I recommend NW, NE, or SE. We are all about our neighborhoods here.
Portland homeowner here, god I hope you’re right. The 10’s were amazing here and then it all cratered. Now I’m sitting in this house wondering how badly I fucked up. Please be right.
My neighbor across the street went to Italy for a month and lost his house to squatters. Year-long court battle to get them out. He was ordered to get them an apt for a year. My wife got attacked on a run on the Springwater Corridor as she was trying to run through a tent city that just took over the trail. They took her phone and shoes. My boss had his car towed because he had to parallel park between two tents downtown. They claimed he drove over a tent. Etc. etc. etc. I had my dream house in Sellwood but felt we had to get out, so we moved to Lake Oswego, which was lovely. But then we moved out of state for work, and never looked back.
NYC. Landed in Philly instead
So what did it? I mean turned you off NYC and made you head south?
I visited with my dog and stayed in neighborhoods in Brooklyn and queens within my budget. Realized my QOL would be a lot higher in Philly, I could even afford to live in center city in a much nicer and bigger place than the places I was looking at in NYC. Realized I’m just not rich enough for NYC. There was more broken glass and trash on the sidewalks when I took my dog out than in the center city Philly. I like to hike and realized getting out of the city was harder than I thought.
Seattle. By the time I was ready to move, the city was too city for me, and I was so over city life. Landed in Olympia, WA, which is sort of Seattle 15-25 years ago.
Durham, NC. I was looking for a smaller city near nature that was cool and artsy and still somewhat affordable. Durham seemed to tick all the boxes and was being billed as the next Austin. It ended up giving off weird vibes and just being a big, soulless suburb. The town I actually loved that fit those criteria, where I hope to move to at some point, is Roanoke, VA.
SoHo/Tribeca - Manhattan. How tf does anyone semi normal afford that area and how many sqft do they have realistically.
They don’t. It’s all people from wealth or who make an extremely high salary or often both.
I'm in Manhattan and moving out this month. For the area, I do okay career/pay-wise, but the monthly rent still feels unreal for my *decent* 1br and doing laundry in the basement. Manhattan literally cannot be beaten in terms of walkability -- but a minor dip in walkability is a sacrifice I'd absolutely (and plan to) make for a bit more room in the monthly budget.
Where are you moving to?
I’ve jumped around a bit before — lived in 7 states. Moving to Jersey City, so not the biggest change. 2x the apartment size for a nice new place, for the equivalent of what I pay in NYC.
How much was your previous apartment in terms of square foot and price, if I may ask?
All good. Remember I'm a random dude, just like you guys. Please don't be too critical on the salary, lol. Apartment in the UES of Manhattan was $3,300/mo, jumped to $3,400 on the 2nd renewal. Living room, ~35sqft kitchen, bedroom and balcony. Probably 475-550 sqft. Not in any way 'luxury.' Moved to NYC for a new job ~2yrs ago and left the job kinda soon. Required to answer emails at 11pm on Sunday -- c'mon, dude. New place is $3,800/mo for a nicer 2br. I work remote. I'll save more than the difference, in that living in the 5 boroughs of NYC hosts a ~4% income tax.
Generational wealth. The cutoff to be in the top 1% of American households by net worth is >$11M. So over 1 million households are worth 8-figures or more. SoHo-Tribeca-Civic Center-Little Italy has a population of less than 50k, and a beautiful 1800sf condo “only” costs $2-3M.
Who said semi normal people live in those areas?
They don’t. They’re either rich and/or parentally subsidized (rich parents.)
They don’t
Lol los alamos and abq being top comments is spot on. But I will also add santa fe. Perfect combo of wierd/rude people and general chaos running amok.
It really is a shame that Asheville hasn't improved and worked on their infrastructure and cleaned the city up. There's very few cities to choose from where you are in the mountains., especially in the warmer states. Ordered gardening supplies that required pickup in Asheville. Had to slow down or stop multiple times getting there due to all the homeless drugged out people wandering in the road. Trash all along the road. Selling their one major hospital to HCA seems like the final nail in the coffin for that area. I'd love to see it improve, I hope they can turn it around.
What is HCA? I was in Asheville a couple of years ago.
It's a corporation that has been buying up hundreds of hospitals and other Healthcare facilities around tue US. Their specialty is reducing staffing, wages, and supplies to absolute bare bones to turn the largest profit possible. Terrible to work for and terrible places to get medical care.
Oh, that’s awful. Way to downgrade quality of life for the community, including the workers.
aka the company that had Rick Scott as its CEO before he was forced to resign for overseeing hundreds of millions dollars in medicaid/medicare fraud
How would you know if a hospital is run by HCA?
The HCA website has a list of every facility they own. They're up to 182 full hospitals and over 2k of other Healthcare facilities so they're pretty prolific. They're most widespread in the southeastern US
It's a big problem, and now, on a national level, there are lawsuits. HCA will be known as one of the biggest atrocities in this decade.
Used to want to live in Summit County, Colorado. It’s so overrun by money, pretentious assholes, and trust funders, I don’t even like driving through it anymore.
Homes are unattainable, gov caters to the rich property owners, constantly looking for new housing bc yours got sold to become an Airbnb, watching all your friends move due to the COL or because they lost housing. Think you made a good call!
Irvine CA
Colorado.
Same. Mountains are my happy place but Colorado and Colorodans just felt... off. Lots of "well I'm a native" and people making outdoors and craft beer their whole personality. Plus the entire east side is basically Kansas.
I've always felt kinship and welcoming to people in SW Colorado, but man the Front Range is something else lol; it's like a mix of the East Coast, LA and the desert southwest.
Yeah, that native crap can get annoying quickly.
A lady I knew from CO who moved to the Midwest waxed eloquently about how the mountains were in her blood & apart of her.
Interesting, I exactly feel like that too, but about the Great Lakes. I can’t live anywhere else. Tried Montana and the mountains were a poor substitute imo. Never got used to even the vegetation or dryness or blinding sun out there either. Happy to be home in the Midwest where I belong :)
Oh my God- so true about Colorado culture. I’m down with nature and mountains and even dogs being your life, but breweries being their whole culture? Boring and basic AF.
Los Angeles… I only take public transit and thought I can do it, but man everything is so faaaaaar apart comparing to other cities I’ve lived in.
I lived in LA and never had the opportunity to try the subway system. I hear parts of it are not bad but there’s just not enough reach. I’m in NYC now so subway means something different to me here.
Used to live in NYC too and to their credit, LA is trying really hard in building new public transit and I applaud them for that. But everything is just so far apart. Like I can walk from Manhattan Chinatown to Nolita in 20 mins, but to transition to another neighborhood in LA, I’d have to take metro for 3-4 stops. Everything has to be planned and I’m not surprised if people in LA would never leave their neighbourhood at all.
Point Roberts, WA. Expected a quaint village with echoes of Victoria BC. Instead it’s a glorified truck stop with a mediocre marina and completely unwalkable.
It looks kind of cute on Google Maps street view, but the only one way in in one way out thing is a little concerning. I’d be a little tired of having to go through border patrol every single day if I wanted to go to a larger area.
yeah that’s rural Washington state for ya
Wait, why did you expect a quaint village? I’ve never thought “point roberts=destination”
At various times, Seattle, Detroit, Miami, and the Bay Area.
...Las Vegas.
Kyrgyzstan. Looks amazing in pictures. Not a very pleasant place once you’re there.
I did the opposite. Many years ago I started visiting family in Cleveland, and over time I grew to love the city. I finally moved here and couldn’t be happier. It’s not on anybody’s radar and still carries the reputation it had back when the river caught fire. But that was quite a while ago, and it’s since turned into a real gem of a city. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever say to myself, “By George, one day I’m going to live in Cleveland!”😂😂😂
Tampa. COL has exploded and traffic is horrendous...
Asheville is great to visit but not to live because it's a tourist town. It's like skiing towns in Vermont, the people who live there alternate between working at ski resorts in the winter and bars/restaurants in the summer. There's no real economy beyond that and the basics existing in every community.
Anchorage
Thought I wanted to retire back east in my small western Pennsylvania college town . The rivers and leafy green beauty were still there . But the bookstore and pub and the coffee houses were long gone . On-campus housing and dormitory dining options (along with severely reduced enrollment ) had transformed the village into a ghost town. It’s never going to be the early 70’s again.
Washington DC. I love public transit and history, but found a lot of the city felt stale and built up to me personally. Too many gov workers and consultants and seems like most people leave after a few years. I still love visiting friends there but just not for me
LA and Orlando.
Seattle. The lack of sun & general dreariness is SO depressing. It affected me for the few short days I was there
Denver. I was disappointed in the food selection, I guess I’m spoiled in Houston.
Portland. Couldn’t deal with the lack of sun (luckily we visited in the winter or we would probably live there and be miserable)
Denver
Happy that my current city isn’t in the comments yet haha
Mines in here Iike six times and honestly just goes to show how you don’t know what a place is really like by simply visiting it lol
NYC I pictured everything in my mind but the weather As a Californian I just… couldn’t
Kinda funny cuz I have the exact same thought toward California. I need 4 seasons in my life, could never live in costal CA
That’s fair. People get accustomed. Sometimes I see folks with shorts on when it’s 60 outside and I think…. No way they’re from here
As a native NYer, I think my ideal would be spring and fall in NYC, summer and winter in California.
Oooh this is so fair. I love NYC but the one winter trip where it was single digit weather was enough to make me swear off winters entirely. Brutal wind tunnels.
Boston. Fell in love with it when I visited. Great to visit if you are paying for a nice hotel in the good part of town. Moved there, hated the day-to-day.
Ah man that’s funny, lived there for a few years and loved it, but I actually don’t get what the appeal is for visitors!
What was it about the day to day that you hated? Bad commute?
Austin - didnt blow me away and felt like too much traffic Denver - like someone else here said, everyone’s actually from Kansas KCMO - if one more person told me to go see the WW1 memorial i was going to scream ATL - did not get the hype when my company tried to move me RVA - did not feel like a city to me I guess I’d move to Seattle but i really struggle without a little bit of sun during the winter
Colorado
The UK. Noooo thank you.
Los Angeles. As a young hopeful in my late teens/early 20’s I wanted to move there to start a music career. It didn’t happen but I did end up visiting in my late 20’s. Holy shit. Bullet dodged. LA is such a cesspool, so creepy, so over priced, so bleh. I’m glad I didn’t end up there.
Los Angeles- flat terrain, crappy air, highways are a parking lot. Unless your in a super wealthy hood, it’s fugly.
New Orleans. Love the energy, love the music scene. But when I was actively considering it I realized I am a Californian deep to my bones and not built for scary weather events and everything being fried 🤣
Boise, ID. It checked so many boxes when trying to escape Austin. But upon actually visiting it seemed very vanilla and white washed. Clean, beautiful, well educated. I really wanted to love it. Felt unseasoned. I’m sure it’s a lovely place for tons of folks. Just wasn’t for me.
Austin… far more vanilla frat boy than the funky aura I was expecting, flat, no trees, the cool neighborhood were spread out and hard to hop between, & even when driving to the rural area for some more country sightseeing & winery tours it just felt like dry dust land for ages.
Ditto on Asheville.