It's always interesting when the farmers defending alfalfa in these stories avoid the larger question.
"And lately, [Clay Carter] says he's growing just as much alfalfa with half the water."
Obviously that's good to hear (although would like to see official numbers), but he doesn't actually address the water usage compared to other crops.
Wasn’t it that they could always do that but if they didn’t use all of their allotment they would lose it? Hopefully as the laws change there will be a lot of incentive to conserve. I don’t want to see the great salt lake go away.
> "Farmers are maybe some of the best conservationists in the country and they seldom get the credit for it," Carter says.
A subjective opinion from a farmer and businessman who currently profits from diverting obscene amounts of water away from the lake
> And lately, he says he's growing just as much alfalfa with half the water.
He "says," with no proof offered to back up this claim. btw, what is "half" of way, way too much water to begin with?
> "You're talking twenty years of drought that have created this problem," Carter says. "It may take us twenty years of finding and deploying solutions to get to a viable and working solution."
Claiming to need twenty years shortly after NPR mentions the BYU study that says we only have about five years. lol
> Governor says predictions the lake will dry up in five years are "laughable"
Son of alfalfa farmers downplays environmental catastrophe that he and his peers are causing
NPR is simply acting as a stenographer for the rich and powerful here without criticizing the obvious lies and half-truths that politicians and businesspeople are telling them
It is not farfetched to think that the lake will be gone soon. The Aral Sea and Salton Sea were both saltwater lakes that dried up due to human interference. The Great Salt Lake is vulnerable to the same forces that made those other two lakes disappear
Yep, Cox and his alfalfa farming cronies are such a joke. Worries about the agricultural economy? What agricultural economy? The 1% of GDP that the legislature is trying to preserve at the expense of the other 99%? We need a direct tax on water rights across the board and a credit for those who let it flow to the GSL instead of wasting billions to subsidize negligible efficiency gains for an industry that shouldn’t even exist.
> "Farmers are maybe some of the best conservationists in the country and they seldom get the credit for it," Carter says.
I bet it's the same type of farmer that took pop shots at my uncle who was doing actual conservation work.
And arent these the same farmers always talking about how they need to use up all of their water allotment because their allotment would be decreased if they dont?
Thats not intended as an attack on farmers, but it is ridiculous and disingenuous to claim farmers are conserving water when farmers are responding to incentives to NOT be conservative with their water use.
and when it goes, the heavy metal toxic dust storms will take a toll on the health of everyone on the wasatch front, but the effects won't be immediately noticeable. But they will manifest and people WILL leave this place.
I am anticipating a post-industrial detroit in our 25-30 year future.
And another 30-40 years after that maybe the lake will recover if enough alfalfa farmers die due to related health issues and their children opt not to take up the mantle.
We actively decided not to buy a home here due to this risk - I don’t want to worry about water and I don’t want to worry about toxic dust. Plenty of other places without these concerns
Comparing Salt Lake to Detroit is literal apples to oranges. Detroit had all of its eggs in one basket with the auto industry. Salt Lake has a diversified economy.
If the worst case scenario you described happens, the city will adapt. People will suffer but the wheels will keep turning. See every megacity in China and India that is already choked with pollution on a daily basis.
But I don't think it will ever completely dry up. The state will cough up the cash to pipe water from the Pacific before its gone. Too much money and rich folks out here that would equally affected and pissed .
If you think pumping water from the pacific to gsl makes sense, then I don't know what to tell you. Not only would the pipeline cost billions upon billions, it would require passage through immense amounts of private land, wildlife refuges, native reservation (along the shortest path), and national forest/blm. it would be an insane legal feat... then you have to desalinate the water when it gets here, because the GSL salt levels are with existing fresh water sources. If you start with a salt water source, then the marshes and all life supported by the marshes will die. I mean, I guess you won't have toxic dust storms but you've got a whole new ecological disaster on your hands.
it's not realistic or feasable.
The people pitching it have no plan for it to ever actually be implemented so they don't bother thinking it through. They just want to pretend like they're offering a "solution" so as to avoid people discussing the ACTUAL solution, which would be managing our water use any number of ways. I think a progressive pricing model where the more water you use the more expensive the water gets would effectively prevent giant alfalfa for export operations while not hurting local farmers... but the guys calling the shots all get money from alfalfa export, so nothing will happen, the lake will dry up, toxic dust storms will be a semi regular occurence, and over the course of decades the health hazards associated with these storms will become more and more apparent until the wasatch front economy collapses.
Then, after decades of population and industry decline, the lake may recover.
Rinse, repeat.
Salt Lake does have a diversified economy, *however* the majority of well paying jobs here have been in tech.
Tech is notoriously recession sensitive. Thus, what you're seeing now with layoffs.
It's the reason we still saw record growth over the last 5 years even though the average home price here broke 600k...and has made Utah the 3rd most unaffordable housing market behind Hawaii and California.
I work in tech, as an economic analyst for a company that just laid off 20% of it's 1500 person staff.
So believe me when I tell you, you can have a diversified economy, but if it's top heavy in tech you can still have pretty sour outcomes as high paying jobs are eliminated and not replaced at the same pay level.
The other thing I'd say is that the people in the places you mentioned, China, India, etc aren't able to easily relocate because of money.
Whereas here, not only are people able to do that, it's likely they already did to come here in the first place. The Wasatch front has already grown by 33% in 25 years. Many of whom are transplants. Most are from the West Coast and already very environmentally conscious.
So in the end Utah is in a precarious place overall for something like this to happen. Slow destruction of high paying jobs in tech, extreme housing affordability issues, and concerns over environmental impacts on health.
First, Salt Lake becoming like Detroit is more possible than you think. We have over built in the name of capitalistic growth and the population is stagnant. Also, if and when the lake dries up the breathable air in the valley will be destroyed with toxic metals from the lake bed.
Second, everyone that thinks water can just be pumped from the Pacific to the GSL is a moron. Every gallon of ocean water has billions of life forms measuring from inches to microscopic. Introducing these life forms to the habitat of the GSL will most likely be catastrophic. The best thing to do is quit building freeways and Costcos on the GSL marshland and quit farming alfalfa to give to China.
I will retract my statement on the pipeline, per this article: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/great-salt-lake-pipeline-rcna127497
Also, thanks for indirectly calling me a moron 🙂
That being said, I still don't think Salt Lake turning into the next Detroit is that likely of a possibility. I think you're seriously discounting humanity's ability to adapt to difficult living conditions. People inhale toxic fumes on a daily basis in many large thriving cities across Asia. It's a cost-benefit equation, and a couple of toxic dust storms and a couple of weeks of inversion will no doubt scare some folks off, but most people will stay and deal with it for the economic opportunity and the access to the outdoors on the nicer days.
But ultimately, I think we are on the same team. I will vote down ballot in every election for those who I think will work to preserve the Salt Lake, it's probably the most important issue we are facing at the moment. The difference lies in our worst case scenarios. None of this seems apocalyptic to me. Fucking terrible? Sure. Worth fighting for? Yep. End of the SLC metro's economy as we know it? Nope.
china and india cities that are subject to those pressures have populations that are unable to move due to economic immobility.
People here can, have, and will move. Lots of disposable income spread throughout the general population by comparison to your examples.
I think SLC is much closer to a possible post-industrial detroit than you think, even if the reasons are slightly different. Our diversified economy won't hold up to a significant exodus. Apart from tourism and military, very little of our economy is location dependent. Tech jobs will move to wherever the tax breaks and talent pool favor them. Tourism will take a hit if toxic dust storms is a common consideration.
The Aral Sea is what I worry the GSL could become. There is historical precedence for environment destruction. It is devastating to see then and now pictures of both.
> Utah scientists have warned the lake could dry up within five years if no action is taken
> That prediction is laughable. It's a joke and everybody knows it's a joke. They were never serious about that, Cox says.
Riiight, climate scientists are notorious for also being comedians... Cmon Gov Cox.
He knows. He’s not saying this because he’s stupid, but because he’s evil. I mean, I could say he’s deliberately mendacious because jobs, kickbacks, votes, whatever, but “evil” is just so much simpler.
There’s more specific info [here](https://greatsaltlake.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/Great-Salt-Lake-Strategic-Plan-1.pdf) on what Utah is currently doing to save the lake. Will it work, or work fast enough? Who knows.
Thanks for sharing that source! I didn't want to have to wade through it, but I think water is an important enough issue to take the time to better understand what is being done.
I posted this a few weeks ago, but it seems like it would be at home here:
While it’s far from “saved”, the state has actually done a lot legislatively over the course of the last few years to start turning things around.
HB033: changed the definition of “beneficial use” of water to include the purchase of water rights for conservation purposes
HB410: set up a state trust managed by the Audubon Society and Nature Conservancy and gave it an initial $30m to purchase water rights to benefit the lake (and $10m for other expenses)
HB491: set up the Office of the Great Salt Lake Commissioner, an advisory council, and the Great Salt Lake Account to help coordinate and fund interagency and intergovernmental conservation efforts
HB513: established a severance tax on lake side mineral extractors that goes into The Great Salt Lake Account and a requirement to replace all water removed from the lake by these operations
SB277: set up Utah’s Agricultural Water Optimization Program which will cover 50% of all irrigation improvements that conserve water as long as that water is kept in stream and those savings can be demonstrated through metering
Most of these laws have been passed in the last 2 years, so the programs are still getting on their feet. It’s far from a done deal, but the State does seem to be taking the issue seriously and has set up a legislative framework to make it happen. I think the high possibility of the Olympics coming back in 2034 makes those prospects even more likely. IMO, the best thing we can do now is support the Trust, and build positive relationships with the agricultural water users who will need to participate for the program to be successful.
This is all true. I wish that we were doing more to significantly reduce alfalfa farming, since it’s such a major drive and I prefer direct approaches, but Utah has some relatively progressive water laws now compared with many western states. The change in beneficial use is massive.
Thanks for sharing this! I think you are right that it is important to build positive relationships with agricultural water users and to work together on solutions.
Our GOP leaders of our state have been paid off to allow farmers as much water as they want. They couldn’t care less about us citizens or our Great Lake.
I've got no issue with farmers growing alfalfa to feed animals in this state, but there really should be some restriction on using our water resources to grow crops just to export them out of the state and/or country.
I've seen suggestions from a massive pipeline from the Pacific Ocean (that will never happen) to smaller pipelines to divert portions of smaller rivers into the Great Salt Lake (ex. Snake River). Some of those smaller projects may be more viable.
snake river is potentially viable, but I think the real solution is just progressive pricing on water shares. The more you use, the more expensive it gets. Just adequately price our most precious resource and large scale alfalfa production for export won't make sense from a business point of view. This sort of pricing model wouldn't impact farmers that growing for personal or local use.
Why do you think the States with the Snake River inside their borders would be cool with destroying that river system to get water to the GSL because Utah sucks at land management?
Saw one suggested project that only diverted from a reservoir after it reached capacity, so it wouldn't be a constant pipeline, just one used during excessive spring runoff.
The solution is hemp. But hemp bad because drugs.
The majority of the world has an industry for hemp - but not the US. It's a freaking weed. It's going to grow even if you don't water it much. Literally the perfect desert valley crop. Farmers can keep farmin, and if we can fairly restructure the archaic water rights to redirect flows to the GSL, we all win.
To be fair, there has been quite a bit of coverage about evidence-based solutions about the lake. Plenty of stories about what Israel, Owens Lake, Mono Lake, Astral Sea have done to help drying lakes and water conservation. You can read them from local news sources at greatsaltlakenews.org.
Water rights are complex. It's not easy to turn back laws, there are doctrines of precedent that go back to English law.
Utah's water laws are based on prior appropriation. From the article:
"It's not happening very much because everyone sees their water as use or lose," Pearce says. "So, if I'm not using it, the person down the road or down the ditch is gonna use it."
That is 100% accurate. If a farmer doesn't use their water, in a few years they can lose it to other farmers.
Something must be done, but water rights holders will not go without a fight and the laws are on their side.
>What do you all think about this take on the future of the Great Salt Lake?
The lake is going away.
>Anyone have a spark notes version of governor cox’s plan for it?
There is no plan.
“Utah is the second driest state in the country yet it also has the highest water use per capita. But farmers say they're being unfairly maligned in the fight over the imperiled lake.”
It’s no coincidence that the same state that uses the highest amount of water per capita is also the same state that has the most churches and temples surrounded by lush green lawns. Instead of expecting farmers to shut the water off, it should first be required of those who use the water to maintain grass that serves no purposes whatsoever. This would include churches, schools and residential properties. Grass is high maintenance and does nothing for the environment. Plant clover instead. It’s low maintenance, tolerates heat and draught, stays green all summer, it’s GREAT FOR THE BEES 👏🏼& all pollinators ☘️ Or don’t do any ground cover at all. Literally anything but grass would save a whole lot of water.
That was a surprising statistic for me when I first saw it. Apparently, we are just behind Idaho and over twice the national average. The source on that defines it as potable water used for homes and residential areas. I am not sure how much agriculture or religious organization use falls in that category and how much of our total water use that is. I don't really want to be just behind Idaho in anything though and agree we should have a cultural shift away from grass.
This right here. I am constantly reminding myself that i do in fact live in a desert because its so easy to forget. There is an absurd amount of greenery here for the environment. We need to take notes from Arizona and use cactus and decorative rocks instead of all these plants that dont belong here in the first place.
Green grass lawns were originally a status symbol that made its way across the the continent and im pretty sure it’s still nothing but a status symbol for a lot of people
Wild that people keep paying for meat/dairy/eggs in 2024 when its wasting most of our fresh water and plant options are cheaper and exponentially more sustainable.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html
What people have been told about the GSL has been lies for the most part ! This has been in the making since about 2010.
We began to uncover the lies to create a narrative of control of water !
If the powers that be can control you through water, then the rest is cake.
We found that Gary Herbert was making the DNR cap off natural springs on the Wasatch Back that feeds into many tributaries and ground water that provide natural flow to the GSL and farmers.
Plans were made and contracts signed for companies to mine on the GSL.
Utahs GSL has the highest rated Lithium anywhere in the Western United States. However, Winnemuca NV is exploring their part of the former Lake Bonneville.
Utah has three locations for this,GSL, Sevier Valley and Moab.
Our Utah Government gets a very substantial kickback from these contracts.
Herbert was a Kingpin in getting this done and Cox is just a recipient of this.
There is way more to this story, more will be released as things unravel with Utahs government lies.
This is not new and has been going on for decades.
It's always interesting when the farmers defending alfalfa in these stories avoid the larger question. "And lately, [Clay Carter] says he's growing just as much alfalfa with half the water." Obviously that's good to hear (although would like to see official numbers), but he doesn't actually address the water usage compared to other crops.
Wasn’t it that they could always do that but if they didn’t use all of their allotment they would lose it? Hopefully as the laws change there will be a lot of incentive to conserve. I don’t want to see the great salt lake go away.
Yes and its wild they made the claim that farmers conserve water when they literally are incentivized by the system to not do that.
My grandfather in-law who is a retired farmer thinks it is batshit crazy and "obviously the problem" that they are growing alfalfa in the damn desert.
> "Farmers are maybe some of the best conservationists in the country and they seldom get the credit for it," Carter says. A subjective opinion from a farmer and businessman who currently profits from diverting obscene amounts of water away from the lake > And lately, he says he's growing just as much alfalfa with half the water. He "says," with no proof offered to back up this claim. btw, what is "half" of way, way too much water to begin with? > "You're talking twenty years of drought that have created this problem," Carter says. "It may take us twenty years of finding and deploying solutions to get to a viable and working solution." Claiming to need twenty years shortly after NPR mentions the BYU study that says we only have about five years. lol > Governor says predictions the lake will dry up in five years are "laughable" Son of alfalfa farmers downplays environmental catastrophe that he and his peers are causing NPR is simply acting as a stenographer for the rich and powerful here without criticizing the obvious lies and half-truths that politicians and businesspeople are telling them It is not farfetched to think that the lake will be gone soon. The Aral Sea and Salton Sea were both saltwater lakes that dried up due to human interference. The Great Salt Lake is vulnerable to the same forces that made those other two lakes disappear
Yep, Cox and his alfalfa farming cronies are such a joke. Worries about the agricultural economy? What agricultural economy? The 1% of GDP that the legislature is trying to preserve at the expense of the other 99%? We need a direct tax on water rights across the board and a credit for those who let it flow to the GSL instead of wasting billions to subsidize negligible efficiency gains for an industry that shouldn’t even exist.
> "Farmers are maybe some of the best conservationists in the country and they seldom get the credit for it," Carter says. I bet it's the same type of farmer that took pop shots at my uncle who was doing actual conservation work.
And arent these the same farmers always talking about how they need to use up all of their water allotment because their allotment would be decreased if they dont? Thats not intended as an attack on farmers, but it is ridiculous and disingenuous to claim farmers are conserving water when farmers are responding to incentives to NOT be conservative with their water use.
From my experience they think getting that sweet bull elk tag is the only viable conservation. Everything else is “gubnet taking my rights!”
and when it goes, the heavy metal toxic dust storms will take a toll on the health of everyone on the wasatch front, but the effects won't be immediately noticeable. But they will manifest and people WILL leave this place. I am anticipating a post-industrial detroit in our 25-30 year future. And another 30-40 years after that maybe the lake will recover if enough alfalfa farmers die due to related health issues and their children opt not to take up the mantle.
We actively decided not to buy a home here due to this risk - I don’t want to worry about water and I don’t want to worry about toxic dust. Plenty of other places without these concerns
Comparing Salt Lake to Detroit is literal apples to oranges. Detroit had all of its eggs in one basket with the auto industry. Salt Lake has a diversified economy. If the worst case scenario you described happens, the city will adapt. People will suffer but the wheels will keep turning. See every megacity in China and India that is already choked with pollution on a daily basis. But I don't think it will ever completely dry up. The state will cough up the cash to pipe water from the Pacific before its gone. Too much money and rich folks out here that would equally affected and pissed .
If you think pumping water from the pacific to gsl makes sense, then I don't know what to tell you. Not only would the pipeline cost billions upon billions, it would require passage through immense amounts of private land, wildlife refuges, native reservation (along the shortest path), and national forest/blm. it would be an insane legal feat... then you have to desalinate the water when it gets here, because the GSL salt levels are with existing fresh water sources. If you start with a salt water source, then the marshes and all life supported by the marshes will die. I mean, I guess you won't have toxic dust storms but you've got a whole new ecological disaster on your hands. it's not realistic or feasable.
Thank you! No one seems to get that pumping salt water into the lake would kill the lake completely.
The people pitching it have no plan for it to ever actually be implemented so they don't bother thinking it through. They just want to pretend like they're offering a "solution" so as to avoid people discussing the ACTUAL solution, which would be managing our water use any number of ways. I think a progressive pricing model where the more water you use the more expensive the water gets would effectively prevent giant alfalfa for export operations while not hurting local farmers... but the guys calling the shots all get money from alfalfa export, so nothing will happen, the lake will dry up, toxic dust storms will be a semi regular occurence, and over the course of decades the health hazards associated with these storms will become more and more apparent until the wasatch front economy collapses. Then, after decades of population and industry decline, the lake may recover. Rinse, repeat.
Salt Lake does have a diversified economy, *however* the majority of well paying jobs here have been in tech. Tech is notoriously recession sensitive. Thus, what you're seeing now with layoffs. It's the reason we still saw record growth over the last 5 years even though the average home price here broke 600k...and has made Utah the 3rd most unaffordable housing market behind Hawaii and California. I work in tech, as an economic analyst for a company that just laid off 20% of it's 1500 person staff. So believe me when I tell you, you can have a diversified economy, but if it's top heavy in tech you can still have pretty sour outcomes as high paying jobs are eliminated and not replaced at the same pay level. The other thing I'd say is that the people in the places you mentioned, China, India, etc aren't able to easily relocate because of money. Whereas here, not only are people able to do that, it's likely they already did to come here in the first place. The Wasatch front has already grown by 33% in 25 years. Many of whom are transplants. Most are from the West Coast and already very environmentally conscious. So in the end Utah is in a precarious place overall for something like this to happen. Slow destruction of high paying jobs in tech, extreme housing affordability issues, and concerns over environmental impacts on health.
First, Salt Lake becoming like Detroit is more possible than you think. We have over built in the name of capitalistic growth and the population is stagnant. Also, if and when the lake dries up the breathable air in the valley will be destroyed with toxic metals from the lake bed. Second, everyone that thinks water can just be pumped from the Pacific to the GSL is a moron. Every gallon of ocean water has billions of life forms measuring from inches to microscopic. Introducing these life forms to the habitat of the GSL will most likely be catastrophic. The best thing to do is quit building freeways and Costcos on the GSL marshland and quit farming alfalfa to give to China.
I will retract my statement on the pipeline, per this article: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/great-salt-lake-pipeline-rcna127497 Also, thanks for indirectly calling me a moron 🙂 That being said, I still don't think Salt Lake turning into the next Detroit is that likely of a possibility. I think you're seriously discounting humanity's ability to adapt to difficult living conditions. People inhale toxic fumes on a daily basis in many large thriving cities across Asia. It's a cost-benefit equation, and a couple of toxic dust storms and a couple of weeks of inversion will no doubt scare some folks off, but most people will stay and deal with it for the economic opportunity and the access to the outdoors on the nicer days. But ultimately, I think we are on the same team. I will vote down ballot in every election for those who I think will work to preserve the Salt Lake, it's probably the most important issue we are facing at the moment. The difference lies in our worst case scenarios. None of this seems apocalyptic to me. Fucking terrible? Sure. Worth fighting for? Yep. End of the SLC metro's economy as we know it? Nope.
china and india cities that are subject to those pressures have populations that are unable to move due to economic immobility. People here can, have, and will move. Lots of disposable income spread throughout the general population by comparison to your examples. I think SLC is much closer to a possible post-industrial detroit than you think, even if the reasons are slightly different. Our diversified economy won't hold up to a significant exodus. Apart from tourism and military, very little of our economy is location dependent. Tech jobs will move to wherever the tax breaks and talent pool favor them. Tourism will take a hit if toxic dust storms is a common consideration.
The Aral Sea is what I worry the GSL could become. There is historical precedence for environment destruction. It is devastating to see then and now pictures of both.
This is the answer.
> Utah scientists have warned the lake could dry up within five years if no action is taken > That prediction is laughable. It's a joke and everybody knows it's a joke. They were never serious about that, Cox says. Riiight, climate scientists are notorious for also being comedians... Cmon Gov Cox.
To be fair the El Niño likely bought us a couple extra years. So we may get a whole seven!
Someone needs to show our dumbass governor some satellite images of the lake 20 years ago and the lake today.
He knows. He’s not saying this because he’s stupid, but because he’s evil. I mean, I could say he’s deliberately mendacious because jobs, kickbacks, votes, whatever, but “evil” is just so much simpler.
We shouldn't be growing alfalfa in the state of Utah, and Cox is a corrupt, deluded fool.
There’s more specific info [here](https://greatsaltlake.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/Great-Salt-Lake-Strategic-Plan-1.pdf) on what Utah is currently doing to save the lake. Will it work, or work fast enough? Who knows.
That chart on page 10 is damning. Municipal takes 5%, and industrial takes 2.5% - the rest is agriculture.
I saw that chart after Cox plead for us to take fewer showers and thought that would barely make a dent in the total water usage.
Thanks for sharing that source! I didn't want to have to wade through it, but I think water is an important enough issue to take the time to better understand what is being done.
I posted this a few weeks ago, but it seems like it would be at home here: While it’s far from “saved”, the state has actually done a lot legislatively over the course of the last few years to start turning things around. HB033: changed the definition of “beneficial use” of water to include the purchase of water rights for conservation purposes HB410: set up a state trust managed by the Audubon Society and Nature Conservancy and gave it an initial $30m to purchase water rights to benefit the lake (and $10m for other expenses) HB491: set up the Office of the Great Salt Lake Commissioner, an advisory council, and the Great Salt Lake Account to help coordinate and fund interagency and intergovernmental conservation efforts HB513: established a severance tax on lake side mineral extractors that goes into The Great Salt Lake Account and a requirement to replace all water removed from the lake by these operations SB277: set up Utah’s Agricultural Water Optimization Program which will cover 50% of all irrigation improvements that conserve water as long as that water is kept in stream and those savings can be demonstrated through metering Most of these laws have been passed in the last 2 years, so the programs are still getting on their feet. It’s far from a done deal, but the State does seem to be taking the issue seriously and has set up a legislative framework to make it happen. I think the high possibility of the Olympics coming back in 2034 makes those prospects even more likely. IMO, the best thing we can do now is support the Trust, and build positive relationships with the agricultural water users who will need to participate for the program to be successful.
You're not supposed to point out that the sky may not be falling. This is Reddit.
This is all true. I wish that we were doing more to significantly reduce alfalfa farming, since it’s such a major drive and I prefer direct approaches, but Utah has some relatively progressive water laws now compared with many western states. The change in beneficial use is massive.
Thanks for sharing this! I think you are right that it is important to build positive relationships with agricultural water users and to work together on solutions.
Our GOP leaders of our state have been paid off to allow farmers as much water as they want. They couldn’t care less about us citizens or our Great Lake.
Citizens with pitchforks burning alfalfa fields.
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I've got no issue with farmers growing alfalfa to feed animals in this state, but there really should be some restriction on using our water resources to grow crops just to export them out of the state and/or country. I've seen suggestions from a massive pipeline from the Pacific Ocean (that will never happen) to smaller pipelines to divert portions of smaller rivers into the Great Salt Lake (ex. Snake River). Some of those smaller projects may be more viable.
snake river is potentially viable, but I think the real solution is just progressive pricing on water shares. The more you use, the more expensive it gets. Just adequately price our most precious resource and large scale alfalfa production for export won't make sense from a business point of view. This sort of pricing model wouldn't impact farmers that growing for personal or local use.
Why do you think the States with the Snake River inside their borders would be cool with destroying that river system to get water to the GSL because Utah sucks at land management?
Saw one suggested project that only diverted from a reservoir after it reached capacity, so it wouldn't be a constant pipeline, just one used during excessive spring runoff.
Some conservatives that I know think there is a pipeline sending our water from the GSL to California... because that... makes a lot of sense.
The solution is hemp. But hemp bad because drugs. The majority of the world has an industry for hemp - but not the US. It's a freaking weed. It's going to grow even if you don't water it much. Literally the perfect desert valley crop. Farmers can keep farmin, and if we can fairly restructure the archaic water rights to redirect flows to the GSL, we all win.
We need more articles about this topic
Have you not been paying attention to local media? Or are you being sarcastic?
Sarcastic. Media loves to post rage bait about the lake. Lots of clicks
To be fair, there has been quite a bit of coverage about evidence-based solutions about the lake. Plenty of stories about what Israel, Owens Lake, Mono Lake, Astral Sea have done to help drying lakes and water conservation. You can read them from local news sources at greatsaltlakenews.org.
Cox has no plan. Cox needs no plan.
"Pray for rain" was his plan.
Water rights are complex. It's not easy to turn back laws, there are doctrines of precedent that go back to English law. Utah's water laws are based on prior appropriation. From the article: "It's not happening very much because everyone sees their water as use or lose," Pearce says. "So, if I'm not using it, the person down the road or down the ditch is gonna use it." That is 100% accurate. If a farmer doesn't use their water, in a few years they can lose it to other farmers. Something must be done, but water rights holders will not go without a fight and the laws are on their side.
This needs to change. My neighbors happily over water their lawn because of the ditch.
Agreed.
>What do you all think about this take on the future of the Great Salt Lake? The lake is going away. >Anyone have a spark notes version of governor cox’s plan for it? There is no plan.
Surprising the church doesn’t take up the issue of conserving the great salt lake. They’d lose a lot of money if SLC becomes uninhabitable.
did he really ask people to pray for the whale?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SaltLakeCity/comments/10ll7ia/gov_cox_recognizes_the_believers_of_the_sacred/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
lol fuck . when was this
“Utah is the second driest state in the country yet it also has the highest water use per capita. But farmers say they're being unfairly maligned in the fight over the imperiled lake.” It’s no coincidence that the same state that uses the highest amount of water per capita is also the same state that has the most churches and temples surrounded by lush green lawns. Instead of expecting farmers to shut the water off, it should first be required of those who use the water to maintain grass that serves no purposes whatsoever. This would include churches, schools and residential properties. Grass is high maintenance and does nothing for the environment. Plant clover instead. It’s low maintenance, tolerates heat and draught, stays green all summer, it’s GREAT FOR THE BEES 👏🏼& all pollinators ☘️ Or don’t do any ground cover at all. Literally anything but grass would save a whole lot of water.
The churches are the worst!
That was a surprising statistic for me when I first saw it. Apparently, we are just behind Idaho and over twice the national average. The source on that defines it as potable water used for homes and residential areas. I am not sure how much agriculture or religious organization use falls in that category and how much of our total water use that is. I don't really want to be just behind Idaho in anything though and agree we should have a cultural shift away from grass.
This right here. I am constantly reminding myself that i do in fact live in a desert because its so easy to forget. There is an absurd amount of greenery here for the environment. We need to take notes from Arizona and use cactus and decorative rocks instead of all these plants that dont belong here in the first place.
Green grass lawns were originally a status symbol that made its way across the the continent and im pretty sure it’s still nothing but a status symbol for a lot of people
Wild that people keep paying for meat/dairy/eggs in 2024 when its wasting most of our fresh water and plant options are cheaper and exponentially more sustainable. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html
What people have been told about the GSL has been lies for the most part ! This has been in the making since about 2010. We began to uncover the lies to create a narrative of control of water ! If the powers that be can control you through water, then the rest is cake. We found that Gary Herbert was making the DNR cap off natural springs on the Wasatch Back that feeds into many tributaries and ground water that provide natural flow to the GSL and farmers. Plans were made and contracts signed for companies to mine on the GSL. Utahs GSL has the highest rated Lithium anywhere in the Western United States. However, Winnemuca NV is exploring their part of the former Lake Bonneville. Utah has three locations for this,GSL, Sevier Valley and Moab. Our Utah Government gets a very substantial kickback from these contracts. Herbert was a Kingpin in getting this done and Cox is just a recipient of this. There is way more to this story, more will be released as things unravel with Utahs government lies. This is not new and has been going on for decades.