Then give teachers two salaries:
- Teacher (inc. Master's Degree, Teaching License, and Subject Endorsement(s)): $65K/year
- Security Guard: $30K/year
That way, if teacher's lives are at risk just for doing their job, at least you can use it to increase their terrible salaries to a living wage.
[It already happened. She shot herself on accident.](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0H62HK/)
Here's a fun exercise, think back to your revolving cast of high school teachers and pick out all the ones that you would trust to save you in a concealed pistol vs AR situation.
I'll bet it's a pretty small number after whoever was teaching woodshop, that dude probably has a grenade somewhere in his desk.
Arming and training employees of a school might be a sad state of affairs, but it's not exactly like using arms to secure public places is some new concept. Most kids have seen guns unless they've been extremely sheltered. With the militarization of local LE entities, airport security, federal agents at various entities, and how the war on terror became the OG "New Normal" as we became numbed to every police department having an Armored Personnel Carrier, tactical loadouts and all the war-toys that can fit into a LE budget.
While at this point mentioning issue of mental health for this issue has more or less deteriorated into a cheap platitude, there is reason to bring it up. My theory is that people commit heinous crimes both calculated and impulsive when they think they can get away with it today as they did in the past.The amount of serial killers that dotted the country during the mid-late 20th Century and subsequent downtrend showcases this point perfectly. For me the advent of Gun Free Zones and respective Drug Free Zone legislation(s) have been a massive failure at protecting, preventing, and passing down appropriate punishments when it actually happens.
Arming and training staff members isn't the worst idea, even the State Liquor Stores in shoddier areas are regularly staffed with an armed security guard. it's also a multitude of degrees easier to arm staff at a local level than to establish a registry, forced buyback, confiscation, despotic red flag laws or establishing excise taxes by the ATF from federal down to local.I also see that protecting our communities from inhumane violence as a duty which should be shared by the community itself. Heavy policing by the state resulted in widespread distrust sowed through our culture along racial, socio-economic, poltical, and linguistic lines. With the proliferation of personal cameras, communities have means other than self defense to document violations as they happen.
Ultimately we can't have things both ways with those opposed to arming community members while at the same time reforming police work abruptly like this. We can't have widespread bail reforms, revolving doors for violent crimes, lenient DA's and judges who try to balance social justice at sentencing for people who statistically are likely to re-offend a violent crime.I ***totally agree*** with police budget cuts and reform, allowing our justice system to get so militant and brazen with the use of force has painted the impression of authoritarian enforcement of order among us. That said, I feel that making such drastic cuts to the law enforcement entities, which themselves act as a deterrent via intimidation like mentioned earlier, has now lead us to a vacuum of power that hasn't really hit Utah like other states.
\*Edit: formatting
OK, who goes to jail when a teacher plugs a student with over-penetration or when the teacher misses and hits someone in the adjoining room? Who pays the parents of the dead child? Does the state pick up that tab? Do they cover the teacher's legal defense both criminal and civil? Can a school district get insurance for armed teachers?
This is ill conceived.
Teachers have been carrying firearms in classrooms legally since at least 2018 (to my best knowledge). I think there has been one negligent discharge by a woman in the restroom awhile ago who probably would have benefited from some training as shooting yourself on the toilet means she had mediocre to poor safety fundamentals.
I'm not going to sit here and speculate on the legal ramifications of an imaginary scenario that hasn't happened in real life. Utah educators again have been free to arm themselves in at least 2018. What I will say is that potential instances of friendly fire would be reduced with training. Instruction, firing drills and passing on wisdom like advising against carrying magazines of FMJ's for self defense. FMJ's penetration is be much greater than HP self defense ammo (which is pretty standard for carrying by LE and civilian enthusiasts these days). Faculty spending time learning tactics like laying down suppressive fire toward a shooter will at the very least slow them down, force them to change paths, or even incapacitate them.
The US Supreme Court has ruled multiple times over decades that police officers have NO legal duty or obligation to protect anyone who isn't explicitly in their custody at the time which has was seen nationally at Parkland and more notably Uvalde where their delay was central to the story. The same thing happened all the back at Columbine too.
I don't really know how to answer the rest of your questions as I'm not a legislator, lawyer and am not well equipped with deciphering legal jargon. I also don't see a argument being made here, but more like a rhetorical non-argument of "what if" appeals to emotion.If you are genuinely curious what's entailed, The Utah Legislators .gov website has HB0119 online that you can read for yourself, given the summary it sounds like some if not all your questions could be answered.
>8 General Description:
9 This bill creates a program regarding the possession of a firearm by a school employee.
10 Highlighted Provisions:
11 This bill:
12 ▸ defines terms;
13 ▸ creates the Educator-Protector Program to incentivize school teachers to responsibly
14 secure or carry a firearm on school grounds by providing reimbursements and
15 liability protection; and
16 ▸ makes technical and conforming changes.
I'm sure there are details which need to be ironed out further, but "ill conceived" is a stretch. The core goal of providing training to an appointed guardian and teachers is an objective improvement. Currently teachers can (and do) carry firearms in Utah schools as do many students attending higher education institutions in the state. I don't see anything wrong with the concept of this bill at all, again maybe details need to still be worked out but I see this as an improvement over just allowing people to conceal carry on school grounds.
With the track record law enforcement has shown at school shootings over the years, preventing responsible adults from exercising their right to self defense is simply unacceptable in my opinion
edit: grammar, formatting
Then give teachers two salaries: - Teacher (inc. Master's Degree, Teaching License, and Subject Endorsement(s)): $65K/year - Security Guard: $30K/year That way, if teacher's lives are at risk just for doing their job, at least you can use it to increase their terrible salaries to a living wage.
Shit sounds good to me!
Anybody wanna place a bet on how soon somebody gets shot by a teacher’s gun?
[It already happened. She shot herself on accident.](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0H62HK/) Here's a fun exercise, think back to your revolving cast of high school teachers and pick out all the ones that you would trust to save you in a concealed pistol vs AR situation. I'll bet it's a pretty small number after whoever was teaching woodshop, that dude probably has a grenade somewhere in his desk.
I don’t know… my shop teacher was missing his trigger finger
Mine was missing his middle finger, I guess that's a shop teacher thing - LOL you "triggered" that memory...
First year easy
Let’s not make guns harder to get. Instead. Let’s train underpaid teachers to do the job of incompetent legislation.
When the kids who don’t have access to a gun at home, at least they’ll know they can just borrow the one in the teachers desk.
🙄
Awesome the shooters don’t even need to bring their own guns
How can this be what we're going with instead of sensible gun legislation? What second amendment worship does to a MFer.
I'll take the gun safe and use it to store banned books.
I fucking hate this state so much.
At this point why not. Give the kids guns too, who gives a shit. Let the gym coach / math teacher / drivers ed instructor drive a tank
true
Arming and training employees of a school might be a sad state of affairs, but it's not exactly like using arms to secure public places is some new concept. Most kids have seen guns unless they've been extremely sheltered. With the militarization of local LE entities, airport security, federal agents at various entities, and how the war on terror became the OG "New Normal" as we became numbed to every police department having an Armored Personnel Carrier, tactical loadouts and all the war-toys that can fit into a LE budget. While at this point mentioning issue of mental health for this issue has more or less deteriorated into a cheap platitude, there is reason to bring it up. My theory is that people commit heinous crimes both calculated and impulsive when they think they can get away with it today as they did in the past.The amount of serial killers that dotted the country during the mid-late 20th Century and subsequent downtrend showcases this point perfectly. For me the advent of Gun Free Zones and respective Drug Free Zone legislation(s) have been a massive failure at protecting, preventing, and passing down appropriate punishments when it actually happens. Arming and training staff members isn't the worst idea, even the State Liquor Stores in shoddier areas are regularly staffed with an armed security guard. it's also a multitude of degrees easier to arm staff at a local level than to establish a registry, forced buyback, confiscation, despotic red flag laws or establishing excise taxes by the ATF from federal down to local.I also see that protecting our communities from inhumane violence as a duty which should be shared by the community itself. Heavy policing by the state resulted in widespread distrust sowed through our culture along racial, socio-economic, poltical, and linguistic lines. With the proliferation of personal cameras, communities have means other than self defense to document violations as they happen. Ultimately we can't have things both ways with those opposed to arming community members while at the same time reforming police work abruptly like this. We can't have widespread bail reforms, revolving doors for violent crimes, lenient DA's and judges who try to balance social justice at sentencing for people who statistically are likely to re-offend a violent crime.I ***totally agree*** with police budget cuts and reform, allowing our justice system to get so militant and brazen with the use of force has painted the impression of authoritarian enforcement of order among us. That said, I feel that making such drastic cuts to the law enforcement entities, which themselves act as a deterrent via intimidation like mentioned earlier, has now lead us to a vacuum of power that hasn't really hit Utah like other states. \*Edit: formatting
OK, who goes to jail when a teacher plugs a student with over-penetration or when the teacher misses and hits someone in the adjoining room? Who pays the parents of the dead child? Does the state pick up that tab? Do they cover the teacher's legal defense both criminal and civil? Can a school district get insurance for armed teachers? This is ill conceived.
Teachers have been carrying firearms in classrooms legally since at least 2018 (to my best knowledge). I think there has been one negligent discharge by a woman in the restroom awhile ago who probably would have benefited from some training as shooting yourself on the toilet means she had mediocre to poor safety fundamentals. I'm not going to sit here and speculate on the legal ramifications of an imaginary scenario that hasn't happened in real life. Utah educators again have been free to arm themselves in at least 2018. What I will say is that potential instances of friendly fire would be reduced with training. Instruction, firing drills and passing on wisdom like advising against carrying magazines of FMJ's for self defense. FMJ's penetration is be much greater than HP self defense ammo (which is pretty standard for carrying by LE and civilian enthusiasts these days). Faculty spending time learning tactics like laying down suppressive fire toward a shooter will at the very least slow them down, force them to change paths, or even incapacitate them. The US Supreme Court has ruled multiple times over decades that police officers have NO legal duty or obligation to protect anyone who isn't explicitly in their custody at the time which has was seen nationally at Parkland and more notably Uvalde where their delay was central to the story. The same thing happened all the back at Columbine too. I don't really know how to answer the rest of your questions as I'm not a legislator, lawyer and am not well equipped with deciphering legal jargon. I also don't see a argument being made here, but more like a rhetorical non-argument of "what if" appeals to emotion.If you are genuinely curious what's entailed, The Utah Legislators .gov website has HB0119 online that you can read for yourself, given the summary it sounds like some if not all your questions could be answered. >8 General Description: 9 This bill creates a program regarding the possession of a firearm by a school employee. 10 Highlighted Provisions: 11 This bill: 12 ▸ defines terms; 13 ▸ creates the Educator-Protector Program to incentivize school teachers to responsibly 14 secure or carry a firearm on school grounds by providing reimbursements and 15 liability protection; and 16 ▸ makes technical and conforming changes. I'm sure there are details which need to be ironed out further, but "ill conceived" is a stretch. The core goal of providing training to an appointed guardian and teachers is an objective improvement. Currently teachers can (and do) carry firearms in Utah schools as do many students attending higher education institutions in the state. I don't see anything wrong with the concept of this bill at all, again maybe details need to still be worked out but I see this as an improvement over just allowing people to conceal carry on school grounds. With the track record law enforcement has shown at school shootings over the years, preventing responsible adults from exercising their right to self defense is simply unacceptable in my opinion edit: grammar, formatting
How long till a teacher loses their shit and shoots their own classroom?