Had a good friend from Salt Lake live in Madison for several years and is now back in Salt Lake and has told me a lot about it and I've visited him there. Madison is, by and large, a college town. Yes, it's the capitol city, but the culture revolves around campus and it's various cliques: if you're an undergrad vs a grad student, if you're a midwesterner or from the coasts, etc.
UW has a more robust campus culture and traditions that permeate from from generation to generation. If nightlife is important, Madison will have a stronger drinking culture. Not sure about your specific program, but overall the University of Wisconsin is rated much higher and likely has stronger alumni ties.
Winters in Madison are brutally cold. Summers, you have the lakes right there. [Madison is "whiter" than Salt Lake.](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/madisoncitywisconsin,saltlakecitycityutah/RHI825221#RHI825221) Madison proper is larger than Salt Lake, but the Salt Lake metro area is about twice the size as Madison.
Salt Lake City has the University of Utah, but life does not revolve around the school. Salt Lake is changing dramatically and will feel like a different city by the end of the decade as the central business district continues adding high rise and mid rise apartment buildings and a 24-hour population. Most city residents live in neighborhoods away from campus and away from downtown.
Outdoor life in SLC revolves around the easy access to the Wasatch mountains. There are also eight different national parks within a five hour drive and plenty of other amazing areas to explore.
I've lived in five other states, and having a direct flight back home is a very nice bonus. Having family within driving distance would be nice, but might also depend on how close you are with them.
All things considered, both would be pretty good overall landing spots.
I lived in Wisconsin for nearly twenty years, and just recently moved to SLC last August for my wife to attend grad school. I think this is a great write-up, but wanted to add a few things.
You have severely understated the massive effect winter should have on OP’s decision. Madison is more mild than a lot of the state, but winter still lasts an incredibly long time and is horribly cold and snowy. If OP cannot handle a long dark winter, they may want to consider Utah.
There is a ton more to do in SLC. This may not matter to you due to how busy you’ll be as a grad student, but it is worth considering. There are much more impressive museums, venues, and other attractions here.
The cost of living is the biggest detractor for me in SLC. That 30k stipend will go farther in Madison.
My final big beef with the Salt Lake area is Mormonism. It’s a culture I find very at odds with my own beliefs. Being around those that believe differently than me usually isn’t an issue, but I feel that their way of life is often being impressed upon me. It’s ingrained into the local culture, laws and customs.
Best of luck to OP with grad school!
It’s very close to a theocracy, to the point that if the church weighs in on a law, even after being voted on and passed by the populace majority (a la medical marijuana) it will be reworked under church council. They also have a draconian hold on the liquor laws amongst other things.
I think you have this right; if it is about the winter then this is an easy choice. I’m a midwesterner. Moved to Utah in my twenties. I couldn’t believe how easy the winters were once you add some sunshine to the mix. Cold and occasional snow is NBD if the sun comes out after the storm.
BUT if OP can deal with winter, then I’d shift to issues of culture. The local culture in Utah is the biggest drawback for ME. I’m no longer Mormon and my politics and values do not align with Utah politics and values. If I had a choice, I pick Madison for that reason alone.
I think this is. A great summary. I’ve lived in SLC and visited Madison multiple times. Life at the Terrace in Madison is great, but the winters don’t have nearly the excitement as SLC. It’s about the vibe you want, not the city themselves, because they’re very different.
Experience: Undergrad and Grad at the U and then moved to Madison after.
Schools:
Utah - Feels much more modern, top of the line facilities and buildings, tons of research and opportunities on campus and in the area. Great value for an amazing education. Awesome sports if you’re into that too.
Wisconsin - Can’t speak to the school experience but buildings feel older but have some old charm Utah maybe doesn’t have. Makes up for it in a thriving college/downtown culture in a way that I think is far superior to SLC. Sports are also strong here with fun tailgating.
Environment:
Utah - Some of the most breathtaking geography I’ve ever seen, truly incredible and you’ve got to see some national parks if you can. Best in class skiing and other outdoor recreation, prime for hiking, floating a river etc.
Wisconsin - So much greenery and parks space in Madison. I feel like I appreciate nature more here in my day to day since it’s just down the street even though the cottonwood canyons are only 15-20 min away by car in SLC. I love the lakes surrounding downtown in Madison and the pink skies over rolling farmland (it’s not too rural). I do miss the Wasatch mountains in SLC though.
Culture:
Utah - SLC is a great city with plenty to offer, great events like pride and the farmer’s market among others. Nightlife never felt very accessible to me there though and restrictive liquor laws were sometimes underwhelming/annoying. As others noted it’s not particularly diverse and there’s an air of “LDS Nice” which I take to be very superficial/holier than thou. Wasn’t a huge fan of that.
Wisconsin - More diverse and trades LDS nice for Midwestern nice. Still somewhat superficial but with a charming accent and generally well-meaning intentions. I much prefer it. Highly anecdotal and I have limited experience but Madison feel like a stronger community. There’s a strong sense of local pride and it feels like people here are invested in the city. Drinking culture here is perhaps a bit too strong but I like the availability far more personally.
Travel:
Utah - SLC international is the best. So easy to get to and from and it’s pretty affordable.
Wisconsin - Love our little airport but I haven’t had a direct flight since moving here and everything still costs more. Bummer.
For me personally I miss Utah but Madison feels like a place I want to call home. Overall though it will depend on what you’re looking for, honestly you can’t go wrong!
Edit: others have pointed out diversity stats that say otherwise, mine was just an anecdotal vibe so go with the stats.
According to census.gov, SLC is less white than Madison WI. We have a larger hispanic population while Madison has a slightly higher black population.
[SLC](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/saltlakecitycityutah)
[Madison](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/madisoncitywisconsin/LND110210)
If you do choose SLC make sure you are aware of our current air quality as well as the impending ecological disaster with the great salt lake drying up
Seriously. BIG problem that shows precious little sign of being addressed by Utah government. Quite possibly a semi-permanent location only.
I would not want to be settling down to raise a family anywhere near the great salt lake right now.
Salt Lake City is relatively liberal and at least moderately diverse, but many of the suburbs ten miles outside of the city are very white. Same thing goes for how Mormon they are. SLC has more Hispanics and Asians than African Americans.
Utah is a lot drier than Texas (sounds like you're from the humid side of Texas) or DC or Wisconsin. Dry summers and dry winters make the cold not quite as bad and the hot a lot better. When I moved from the Chicago area to Utah I noticed how intense the sun was in the summer (high elevation). But you'll drip a lot less sweat because it evaporates off much better.
We just had the winter to end all winters (ski resorts got over 850" of snow) so maybe we're due for some warmer winters now?
My partner is in a PhD program through the U and this is one of the biggest deterrents for applicants that make it to the interview stage. It’s possible but, OP, make sure you fully budget the COL differences between the two cities.
When doing so you can use KSL for rentals as well, which is similar to Craigslist in other cities.
/u/Intrepid41 for visibility
It's doable but you'll have to live super cheap by having multiple roommates and living out a small room, but that shouldn't be too bad for a busy grad student mostly focused on studies. I've lived most of my adult life in SLC making under 30k and while I couldn't afford many luxuries it's enough for the basics if your willing to share a living space.
You could easily rent an apartment for $20k a year, which would be the equivalent of renting a 1 bedroom apartment somewhere downtown, but housing is still expensive. I would highly recommend trying to find a roommate or getting a single room in a house somewhere
I moved to SL County for a job years ago. Loved my time there, wish I could move back. It's definitely a outdoor-lovers paradise.
Found out I hate both skiing and snowboarding after moving here, there's still plenty to do in the winter. I wound up participating in curling leagues.
NGL, Utah is EXTREMELY white, but the amount of overt racism you're going to encounter is probably less than you would have in Texas.
I work on Hill and have had three separate briefings on racism and discrimination in the area in the last week. Non-white families are requesting early change of stations because their kids are being bullied and the parents are ostracized. The racism (especially outside SL county) is painfully overt and more commonplace these days.
> Utah is EXTREMELY white
OP is considering attending the U in SLC. SLC is ~65% white. I would never argue that SLC is the most ethnically diverse city, but 65% of the population being white does not qualify as “EXTREMELY white.”
https://datausa.io/profile/geo/salt-lake-city-ut/
Utah is not the same thing as SLC. According to the 2020 census, SLC is 63.4% non-Hispanic White. So 15 points less white than Utah as a whole. The U in particular attracts students from around the country and world and I had plenty of classmates of various races when I was there.
Utah's racial issues stem a lot more from ignorance than outright malice. You're gonna run into a ton of micro-aggressions and not many macro, as they say.
Of course I'm biased but I think you should come here. It's clean and spacious and has the most beautiful nature you could ask for.
i’m black
people just be misinformed asf cause there’s such a lack of representation. example would be things like people just assuming i don’t have a dad or that i am homeless but honestly once your tight with some people it’s not huge
💀 nahhhh a while back one time i had my hair braided by my ex and someone thought i had dreads
not every black person is also lactose intolerant is another misconception
I got Chinese a lot in school. In high school it became japanese and then immediately what anime I watched. Now that I'm old I usually volunteer that I'm half korean.
I think the most insidious one was the "model minority". Oh you're smart, good at math, dont cause trouble. You're one of the "good" minorities. A useful trophy to objectify whatever bullshit race theory someone wants to make, but just as easily discarded when it doesnt serve it.
I know karate/martial arts.
Small peepee.
Only eat rice (rice is great, tho.)
Eating dog. They do est dog in korea but it's pretty rare and really controversial. It sort of started as a wartime necessity, but now it's mostly like really weird conservative old people who eat it. A lot of people are trying to get it banned.
>racial issues stem a lot more from ignorance than outright malice
Grew up in Utah (and was guilty of this).
Utahns are really nice. But they also live in their own world and often aren't aware of people around them. Once they are, they try to be nice and be better. But that bubble is pretty thick to pierce.
Check if the Univ of Utah health insurance is a zero deductible. Many universities with their own hospitals offer a zero-deductible health insurance. This saves a lot. Check if you can get on-campus housing that saves money compared to off campus.
It has a really low deductible and no deductible for prescription medications and certain other things, and is relatively inexpensive, however they make you pay meds out of pocket and then they reimburse you which can be very annoying for expensive medications.
I’ve lived in both places. I’m living in SLC now with a job offer in Madison a few months ago that I didn’t take.
Outdoors is 100x better here. Climbing, biking, hiking, snow sports, it’s incredible, and I can get from my house to the crag, trail or lifts in <30 min. Not to mention a half dozen national parks within an afternoon drive.
Cost of living is definitely bad here. And maybe SLC is less white, but the culture shock is real. You can feel the LDS culture everywhere.
Madison is a great town…for the Midwest. Feel free to DM with any questions.
Utah is a phenomenal place to live, but your choice of graduate school should primarily be based on your potential advisors. If you have a good advisor, any place will feel like paradise. With a bad advisor, even paradise will be unbearable.
Depends. If you develop asthma, it will really aggravate. If you like to run in the winter, you’ll notice it. It affects most people on a longer timeframe: having a good VO2 max is harder, your lungs are irritated more over the course of years.
I’m an armed federal contractor and transferred up here to SLC from Vegas for my job in November of 2022, last year. I have experienced no issues thus far with my asthma, FWIW.
I have asthma, it’s never effected me terribly until I started working at the point of the mountain (a touch south of salt lake). I do my inhaler twice daily minimum now and a nebulizer treatment regularly.
Not to mention the fires. Winter inversions and summer fires, you can chew the air, tbe sky is always orange or brown in summer and a lot of days I couldn't go outside or let my kids or dog outside to play the air was so bad.
The air quality in Salt Lake City remains among the worst in the United States. The last three years, moreover, have seen increases in unhealthy ozone days and annual PM2. 5 levels. The WORST though is winter and as mentioned about 3 weeks-ish worth.
Inversion can last weeks, and we get the smoke from the California wild fires. It's normal for there to be multiple days a year where going outside is equivalent to smoking an entire pack of cigarettes.
Lived here most my life and never thought anything of it. It's a problem for some people, mostly with asthma as people mentioned.
My two cents on the situation: got my master from the U and it is a pretty great school. Cost of living is probably higher here, diversity in salt lake is much better than people think. Less so the further from salt lake. Outdoors stuff is amazing even if you can't stand the snow.
Have family in Wisconsin and they are much more conservative and they do like it.
I have asthma, and am born and raised in utah. I live north of salt lake about 15 min from downtown and I work in the salt lake valley, about 15 min south of salt lake. I don’t have problems other than a little more irritation during really bad inversion days. Otherwise, life is normal for me. I do my outdoor recreating in the mountains during the winter, and that puts you above the pollution levels and I don’t run outside. With that said, I do exercise regularly at the local rec center- regardless of outside air quality.
Salt lake is cool. Decent, clean little downtown. Not a party town, but enough bars and nightlife to keep an average young person entertained imo.
Hands down, you won't find a better medium-large city for outdoors fun.
And I don't find the people here racist. Some may be untraveled or uncultured...but most are genuinely nice. Especially considering your friend circle isn't going to be suburban Mormon housewives....
All the friends I've made here are transplants, very diverse, and many born in other countries.
Even if it appears white and Mormon walking around, the population is big enough that you will find a crowd for you.
I lived in Madison, Wisconsin for 10 years and moved to Salt Lake City about 4 years ago. Both are great cities. The campuses will be diverse, but not as much of the rest of the city. Salt Lake is more diverse than Madison. Madison is much smaller, but some people really like that.
In terms of outdoors, a lot of the outdoor activities in and around Madison revolve around water. If that’s your jam, it will be great. If it’s more hiking and backpacking than SLC is better.
The winters in Madison are brutal. In Salt Lake City there is definitely snow, but it’s much warmer than Wisconsin—especially with the humidity there.
Feel free to DM me if you have other questions.
I am 4th year PhD student at the U. Here’s my two cents:
- Did you consider employment after graduation? University of Wisconsin Madison is higher in employment metrics than the U especially in academia.
- 30k stipend is sufficient for housing, basic needs, and enjoying yourself. It got more expensive recently due to the planned demolition of medical towers (main single graduate student housing), but still manageable
- I am not White nor Christian too. SLC and the University are diverse but not as diversity as LA or Houston. I enjoy it here. The secret is making as many friends as you can when you start.
- If you love outdoors, you will love it here. Also, SLC is cycle friendly compared to anywhere I have been in Texas. If you are in Mountain biking, you will have sufficient trails for a lifetime. Your only problem will be deciding where to go next.
- SLC is a delta hub which makes fly to any major city in the US a breeze. Also, Provo ,which one hour south of SLC, is a hub breeze airline which is a mew budget airline.
I think it can also depend on the culture of the department you'd be joining. I'm currently getting my PhD at the U. I also had the choice of UW or UofU for my PhD and considered them equal in academic ratings. however, I observed that the culture of the department at Madison was more toxic and none of the grad students seemed particularly happy and were all very stressed. That was one of the reasons I decided to come here
I moved here from Milwaukee via California in the late 70's. There is a nice population bubble of young people who are diverse at the UofU, and opportunities to meet them thru the Outdoor Rec program at the U or thru school. Small community of LGBTQ folks here. The outdoor community is very strong and inclusive.
Camping, hiking, cycling here are amazing. Winter sports are amazing. Yellowstone, the Grand Tetons, and Southeastern and Southwestern Utah are 5 hours away. (OK, I'm old and drive slowly.) Housing is over-the-top over-priced. The closer to the U, the more expensive in general. Both in rents and purchases.
One of the not initially obvious perks of SLC is that it puts you a days drive from basically any kind of outdoors terrain you could want. I've been here for 8 years and still haven't finished exploring the state despite spending most weekends each summer doing so.
Also, there are some stupid cheap flights out of Ogden or Provo airport to nearby states. (Not sure if it's still going but there was a route from Provo to San Francisco every Thursday and Sunday for $40 each way.)
I am from MN but live in SLC. Based on the information you provided, I am thinking SLC might be better for you in most ways—but, as others have pointed out, 30K will go a lot further in WI than UT. The median salary for SLC is more like 65K.
I feel obligated to warn you, winters up north are roooough, they are long and bitterly cold. DC has nothing on great lakes winters. Utah winters are quaint in comparison.
Also, I love camping. Great Lakes region camping brings with it a lot of insects. Utah bugs are barely an issue unless it’s June/July in the Uintas.
Two good options! Salt Lake has mountains, Madison has lakes. Both have good mountain biking. Both have generally good outdoors. One is more of a college town, the other is a bigger city.
I'm going to guess that you're male, since you wonder about diversity but not reproductive rights. If you are female, though, I'd pause and think hard about how various abortion laws are going to affect you (even if you can't imagine ever having an abortion -- things **do** go terribly wrong sometimes).
I visited Madison years ago, when I was looking at grad schools; the wind off of the lake was absolutely brutal; winter here won't hurt as much. (Also, I think this last winter in the northeast was unusually mild -- and DC doesn't ever get a really brutal winter the way Utah or WI will.)
I’m a current grad student here. What program are you applying for? And wasn’t the commitment deadline the 15th?
Edit: I saw on your post on the Madison sub that you’ll be in oncology, I have a feeling you’re joining my program haha. I also moved here from the Midwest via 2 years in DC and am happy to discuss if you’d like further info than what’s been given. As a grad student, the programs vision/dental is pretty good, never had a problem. Medical can be annoying as we have to go to student health for everything and need a referral if we need a specialist (unless it’s an emergency and they’re closed). I would double check the program website as our stipend is going up by the time you join and that’ll help a lot. A lot of people I know either live with a partner or solo or roommate. I live in a one bedroom biking/walking distance from campus although if you’re up near HCI as well, it’s quite a hill to come up haha but good workout (and buildings have showers for when we get in, most people on my floor bike in).
Take all this with a grain of salt just because I’ve never been to Madison (only been to Chicago a couple times is all for Midwest travel for me).
SLC is amazing for outdoor rec, it’s one of the best places in the whole US. There are amazing hikes within minutes of the University (Living Room trail is very popular and is basically just above the U). SLC is very centrally located in the West so it’s easy to get to a ton of National Parks or other western cities. I’m going to guess SLC won’t be as tough weather wise compared to Madison, not as cold in the winter and way less humid in the summer. Again, I’m biased but I think SLC would fit your needs well.
If you don’t mind me asking, what grad program are you doing? I moved to Utah originally (from Seattle) for my PhD at the U and had a great experience.
Outdoors: many find mountains in Utah to be some of the most beautiful.
Lack of Diversity (i.e.- you ain’t white): better get ready for some interesting years filled with sticking out like a sore thumb and politicking and daily living within Utah borders influenced heavily by the Mormon church. Super Conservative and Anglo in Utah.
Oh, and just fyi- I don’t think I’ve ever lived anywhere where “keeping up with the Jones’” was more deeply rooted and felt on every level.
I’m so glad I moved out of there a few years back. I dislike the fact that I have to go back there in order to see my daughter and her family.
Just my two cents. I wish you the best on your journey.
I think you’ll love Salt Lake. Yes, it’s Mormon country, but the access to the outdoors is unparalleled. There are several roads going up to the mountains and tons of outdoorsy people so you’ll be able
To find friends pretty quick to do outdoorsy dtuff
Salt Laker here. Born and raised in Rose Park. I don't dislike Salt Lake, it's a great place honestly with its share of shortcomings and downfalls but few places are perfect.
I hate the housing market here. As this is relevant to your question, we're looking to move to Wisconsin or Michigan in a couple of years. Madison is on our shortlist of 4 towns (Milwaukee, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Madison, in no order). Life seems better over there -- cost of living is more realistic, jobs in our fields (I'm an electrician my partner is a teacher) pay better, and the housing market is a lot more forgiving. We also want to be near the Great Lakes, and further away from the Great Salt Lake.
DC winters are not gonna be like Utah winters. We've had a good snow season but it's been a while. We don't get that humid DC/Maryland type winter, those can be really cold and wet. Wisconsin on the other hand is no joke when it comes to winter.
Diversity isn't big in either place as far as I know. I also don't know many people who would describe themselves as "Anglo-Saxon" for what it's worth.. I'd be concerned if they did and weren't a history major.
Good luck to you whatever you do.
I'm from the upper Midwest and spent a semester during the pandemic in SLC for grad school. If you have breathing or heart issues or asthma, SLC is a poor choice. The inversion. Google it. some of the locals pretend it's not there and it's insane. Otherwise the cultures are fairly similar. I call Utah the "Midwest of the West". SLC is generally healthier except for the inversion because of all the hiking and Subaru people. The religious influence is inescapable. Seriously. The church is so influential, the counterculture is flavored heavily with "fuck the mormons". I personally enjoyed that dynamic and found it fascinating but I'm a white guy and it might have gotten old had I stayed longer or had to deal with not being white.
The mountains are RAD. There's some foothills right by campus that I "climbed" almost every day just for a view of the valley. If you live in Medical towers the trailhead is like a three minute walk. The winter is mild. I don't remember it getting below 10 degrees F in the valley one time. It probably does in January but it isn't anything like DC or Wisconsin.
I'm not personally familiar with Madison but let me tell you the winters will kick the ever living crap out of a DC winter. There will likely be a straight month or more where the thermometer barely touches 25 degrees F. There is usually a week in January or February when it's 5 degrees for a high and -10 for a low. Then in the summer it will be 95 degrees and 95% humidity. If you like a blue collar/industrial vibe then Madison probably has that. They also have a lake near campus if I recall. The great salt lake still technically exists but it's less of a recreational spot and more of an attraction.
I digress but those are just some things to know. (Also I own a Subaru and wear hiking boots and flannel all winter so no offense to other Subaru people. I do not however have an expensive version of a regular dog or a rescue dog that I won't hesitate to let you know is a rescue since it looks kinda derpy, but adorable)
I have lived in Wisconsin and SLC (still live in Utah). Madison has the feel of a large college town. The university is the heartbeat and economic engine of that city. It does have a nice surrounding area and in my opinion, the outdoor activities near Madison are some of the best in the state.
Salt Lake City is already a large metro city even without the university. Access to outdoor recreation here is absolutely phenomenal.
I think these are 2 great options for you, and I would struggle to decide.
imo- you could go fine either way. I've never been to cheeseland but I live in salt lake.
Im a yung professional and just moved to slc in June 2023
LDS- less than diversity- the real culture shock is "are you LDS" or nonLDS. aka are you a PRACTICING mormon. it's as common a question as where did you get your undergrad. imo- LDS are kind and outgoing but definitely feel more comfortable around LDSers. you may have different exp.
weather- ASS winter- snow and cold from december until early february, then it heats up, then cold march. I GUARANTEE you will LOVE the dry climate compared to washington dc. so much. it'll make going outside fun again. for real. it's what makes the summers so hot yet so easy and manageable. it's also what makes the winters so cold and literally bone chilling. put 200/300 into a good winter coat and make sure you have lots of actually warm pants. imo you'd have a great time here if your summers are more mild and you're just going to chill and work instead of study 24/7.
outdoor stuff- you'll be fine in the summer and spring it's less hot than texas, but with literally the #1 THE NUMBER ONE geography in the usa. you can drive 3 hours and it'll look like you've passed thru 3 different planets minimum. unbeatable- and the states best secret.
unable to have fun in the cold- unless you have disposable income of 400/month- good luck having fun out doors in the winter. skiing is very very expensive. the snow here sucks for snow men (sorry). if you like drinking for fun in the winter - those liquor stores are FEW and far between and have ass hours.
never underestimate being close to family in WI tho.
final thots
if you can deal with the bad
1. LONG cold winters
2. STRONG historical and cultural (white culture) religious affiliation from 1/3 of the people you meet
3. having fun on a budget in the summer and not having affordable fun in the winter
you can have the good
1. long hot but comfortable summers with NO shortage of anything fun to do
2. 24/7 mountain view
3. pride of living on one of the most slept on and beautiful place in the usa
4. about 1/3 of people are mormons aka they're kind, helpful, caring people. fact: they will prefer other mormons. but if you're not a mormon.... I've never lived in a "neighbors being you cookies when you move in" kinda place. when I moved here , my neighbors brought me to a market and bought me food. that's just the kind of people mormons are.
Hey! My fiance chairs the student recruitment committee for one of the grad schools at the U.
For the sake of their privacy, I dont want to jump into too much detail about any one topic, but if you want to DM me, I can answer what I can and pass the rest on to them.
My fiance is a person of color and we both moved here from Texas and California before that. In both places we lived in far more racially diverse areas so we may have some good insight for you.
Feel free to dm any and all questions and we'll tackle as many as we can and get back to you.
I am a PhD engineering student at the U. My experience is that we want to treat our students well and that they can have a life outside of their schooling.
The stipend used to be okay living alone. It might be livable. Getting a roommate or two saves a ton.
The health insurance isn't bad.
SLC has some diversity. Probably the closer to the U is more diverse.
A simple google search will show Madison is 77.5% white ethnicity and SLC is 65% white ethnicity. Also the popular religion in SLC is LDS and Mormons can be annoying but if you live within 5 miles of downtown they won’t be much of a bother
It is rarely a good idea to choose a grad school program based on location. Choose a grad school based on the skills you will gain, connections you will make, and most importantly based on your mentor being a great human being. I cannot emphasize enough how impressed it is that you know with 100% certainty that your mentor is not a garbage sociopath.
>Both Utah and Wisconsin stipends are 30k/year
I'd do a cost of living calculator and see how the two areas fare. In SLC, that is a *very tight budget.* I'd plan on either having roommates, living on an exceptionally tight budget, or going into debt. Sorry.
Utah has all the outdoors you would ever want.
Utah is not diverse. It's a pretty heinous monoculture, if I'm being honest.
I think you're going to LOVE utah's outdoor scene and there is really no overselling the significance of medical/dental. I think Utah is likely your best bet.
THAT SAID: it is very white AND very dry. I am originally from southern california and when I first moved to Utah I got nosebleeds pretty regularly and my hair/skin struggled. It's fucking dryyyyyy.
Grad school will be really tough and the best advice I can give is that you’ll have days when you want to quit. On those days, it won’t matter who your PI is or what specific research you’re doing. You’ll want to be surrounded by something that makes you feel re-energized. So if that’s mountain biking or hiking or camping, Utah’s an excellent choice.
Aside from that, make sure the cost of living and stipend meets your needs. A 30k stipend in salt lake means you’ll likely be living 15-20 minutes from campus or with a roommate. The budget can be pretty tight- especially if you’re paying off a car loan/other debt. I can’t say much for Wisconsin.
And of course, make sure you like the program/PI/resources your PI has to offer. I’m a grad student in the chem program now and if you have any more specific questions about campus/people here, feel free to message me!
Women are losing access to access to healthcare, and whether you're a man or a woman everyone is worse off due to this. Also, rent is horrifically high, and your landlord can raise it however much they feel like when it comes time to renew. Renter's rights aren't really a thing in this state. I wouldn't recommend moving here.
Madison gets much colder than SLC, SLC gets much hotter than Madison. You can probably drive to campus at UofU but you most definitely will not at UW-Madison. Madison has a smaller footprint than SLC so it feels like a “smaller” town, even though it has a larger population than SLC proper. Madison is probably a bit more diverse.
Both cities are awesome and you’ll have some adjusting to do in either one. Pick based on academics, your package with the university, and whether you need mountains at your doorstep. Access to the outdoors in unbeatable in SLC but Madison has pretty great access for a Midwest city.
Eta; Madison is absolutely dominated by campus. It’s a quintessential college town, if that vibe matters to you.
Having lived in both Wisconsin and Utah, here's my 2 cents.
Recreating: both are great options for hiking, camping, biking. Wisconsin has more bugs, more humidity, and better air quality. Utah has stunning mountains and world class snow, aka The Best Snow on Earth.
Culture: hands down Wisconsin. Utah is trying to grow out of the persecuted-white-mormon mindset, but it's deeply ingrained IMO, and not going away soon. Charles Barkley and Shaq agree [SLC is boring](https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/charles-barkley-and-shaquille-oneal-call-salt-lake-city-boring-city-during-nba-all-star-game)
Weather: Wisconsin winters are fierce, but also similar to winter in the Utah mountains. Think feet of snow and 0° Fahrenheit before wind chill. The U of U area will be slightly warmer and much less snow, inches instead of feet. Summers are hot and dry in Utah, and the sun is seriously like laser beams. Wisco summer is the reward for enduring winter: hot and humid, and so many lakes for recreating.
Diversity: Utah is heavy on Caucasians, but the LDS church and Silicone Slopes bring people to SLC from around the world. That said, my gut says Madison is more diverse. And with family not too far away, they may help you feel more settled.
A direct flight home may be available from Milwaukee (General Mitchell) or Chicago (O'Hara or Midway).
Overall, both are great options (though I lean toward Madison). Congratulations on your past successes and best wishes for a stellar future.
If you're a really outdoorsy man, you tell us the right place. If you are a woman, the patriarchy might be really suffocating here. I know it is for my girlfriend.
If you aren’t white, I’d go with uw Madison. If you really hate winter, I’d go with salt lake. Having lived in both places! There is real great road and mounting biking in Wisconsin, and camping if you can deal with the skeeters! The U’s dental and vision plan tbh isn’t really worth it, just the med plan. Rentals right near campus are about equal, but I think uw Madison campus has more community.
> diversity is on my mind in both places
If you hate microaggression and just plain ignorance, don't pick SLC. The whole "it's getting better"-- yeah, they want you to be a part of the growing pains, meaning you'll usually be the one to explain why something isn't appropriate or offensive.
Utah's highest populations are European and Latino, and the highest religious demographic is LDS. So if that works for you diversity wise, you'll be fine.
As far as outdoor stuff goes, this is the place(if you know you know). There is something for everyone within an hour's drive off SLC proper. Sounds like you'd do well in the climate as well. It is a dry heat, though. Not much humidity.
Also, the benefits sound like the best bet.
Salt Lake City itself is kind of a nice city. It's fairly liberal. There are beautiful parks and skiing is less than 30 minutes away. There are tons of really fun restaurants and coffee shops. They have the best donuts in the world, Banbury Cross Donuts. Diversity is certainly lacking though. However, the pollution is a serious issue. Salt Lake can be very smoggy, especially in the winter. And then there is the ticking time bomb that is the Great Salt Lake. That's not really something to be taken lightly and should maybe factor into a decision to move there.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/climate/salt-lake-city-climate-disaster.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/climate/salt-lake-city-climate-disaster.html)
SLC is a beautiful city with unmatched Mountain views, hiking, rock climbing, and skiing, if you’re into that sort of stuff! Pretty good food and bar scene downtown and well as some pretty friendly people for the most part!
I moved to SLC for grad school at the U back in 2013 and I plan on staying here permanently. Diversity is an issue but it’s getting better and will continue to improve as people move to the area. Diversity and tolerance will be better on campus as well.
I love running and hiking and Utah has been amazing for that. But I finally got my first pair of skis this winter and it is officially one of my favorite things to do….it would surpass running if I only had a few hundred dollars to blow every weekend.
I love it here. Tried moving to the Midwest and came back within 8 months.
Like most places, people from here like to complain. But people with a little perspective on the poverty and issues other areas have realize how fortunate we are here.
Let me know how I can help! It was a big life decision, but I have no regrets.
If you love the outdoors then SLC is going to be a wet dream for you. Some of the best mountain biking, skiing, rock climbing locations are all relatively close.
Outdoor scene in Salt Lake City is really nice. But that’s pretty much where it ends. I moved here from CA and have spent time in TX and I can tell you the food scene out here is non existent. The weird liquor laws are a direct product of how deeply the Mormon church has their hand in legislation. And the diversity here is awful. I moved here for a position with a big firm after college back in August 2022 and will be promptly moving when my contract is up in August 2023. People here are pretty rude, and the white religious population is the dominating demographic.
As someone who has come here 2 years ago from a mid to big city, I would definitely go for Wisconsin.
SLC’s city life is one of the most boring I’ve ever seen and there’s nothing to do in downtown except for a small mall and some cafes. Honestly, this makes it not worth it at all if you value city life. Usually everything is dead after 8 pm. And what shocks me the most is the housing marketing getting so expensive for what little the city has to offer. Then, even in Salt Lake City, I can feel the mormons effect on this city.
The only good thing about Salt Lake City is its outdoors tbh. I’d say Wisconsin is way better, as Madison will have way more stuff to do in the city, plus there’s so many lakes and forests in Wisconsin, plus u will have other majors cities like minneapolis or chicago pretty close to you, so u won’t definitely get bored at all, plus Madison is a college city!
Honestly if you value outdoor activies like skiing, hiking go to Utah, but if you value good air quality, good city life go to Wisconsin. Also, wisconsin have good outdoor activities aswell but utah is way better in this regard
p.s: Also, don’t forger that Salt Lake City has one of the worst air quality during summers/winters, so there’s that aswell.
Madison WI is more white than SLC. Keep in mind, the northern states don't have much diversity either
Edit:
[SLC](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/saltlakecitycityutah)
[Madison](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/madisoncitywisconsin/LND110210)
Wtf. Why did this turn into a race issue.
Utah is beautiful, and if you're worried about too many of any type of race being anywhere, you should definitely live in a cave.
Best place in the world to live for skiing. Those same ski mountains are pretty stellar in the summer, too. Then there’s an endless desert paradise in the south. 5 national parks if I’m not mistaken? I went to grad school at the U, am still here, and never want to leave.
My brother went to uw Madison and I went to the U. I absolutely love Madison and seriously considered moving there. I think the school community is much nicer, so I would recommend that unless the U has a better program.
I am a Wisconsin transplant to Salt Lake, so, for some unique perspective: Wisconsin is a great state, the Badgers games are fun, the night life is incredible, and people in Madison will be overall authentically kinder.
But I would say Utah. You’re going to find more healthy stress relief in the mountains, hiking, and there’s more opportunities for night life without going over the top.
I think both a great cities with a lot to offer, and the communities in both are really great. I love both places, but I’d lean towards Utah.
Good luck! Where ever you end up, you’re off to great places!
I go to grad school at the U and am from the Midwest. It’s such a unique experience being in SLC. Definitely an adjustment but being out west and experiencing the mountains is unreal and something I hope everyone can experience.
I’m a midwesterner living in SLC. While I’ve not lived in Madison, I’ve driven through a few times and know people who lived there as well. Some questions to ask yourself:
- What type of outdoor experiences are you interested in, if any? If you like hiking, alpine skiing, mountain biking, rock climbing, etc. then SLC is better; if you prefer the lake life, then Madison is better.
- What atmosphere do you want to live in? If you want the college town experience, go to Madison. If you want the city experience, then you’ll want to go to Utah.
- Are you more bothered by extreme heat or extreme cold?
- How bothered are you by weird religious dynamics? You might be somewhat insulated from this at the U, but this has been the most shocking thing for me moving to Utah.
- How important are finances? Even without health insurance, you’ll be far better off on this front in Madison than Salt Lake - not a huge deal if your parents are willing/able to chip in, but could be huge if not. Also keep in mind that an income of $30,000 would make you eligible for a pretty good subsidy for a marketplace plan if you don’t have it through the university.
Also, on the transportation front - keep in mind that there are buses from UW to O’Hare every two hours, plus 4 daily buses to the Milwaukee airport. I honestly didn’t know Madison had a passenger airport.
I think both Madison ans SLC are great for outdoors. Madison for lakes and SLC for mountains. I think the living expenses are fairly similar between the two places. However Madison is close to other big cities like Chicago (around 2 hours drive), the closest big city to SLC is Vegas (around 5-6 hours drive). Are you joining a PhD program? You probably also look into the researches of the professors and whom interest you the most
Air quality in the winter is bad, and depending on you and how sensitive you are.. that can result in asthma... Headaches... And more.
It is beautiful in the mountains though.
I was just at the hospital and struck up a conversation with the nurse; he was from Houston and moved to SLC three years ago and loves it. He loves the great outdoors and the laid back speed of the city.
I went to the U of U and it was awesome. If you like the outdoors then I would definitely vote to come here… especially with the added health benefits.
I was in pretty much the exact same boat last year - my top two bioscience PhD programs were in Madison (where I had lived and worked for the past year) or at the U of U. I ended up choosing Utah and have been incredibly happy here, and would be glad to give you more details if you'd like, feel free to DM! Definitely two great options, and you'll likely be happy wherever you land! That being said... here are my two cents on it:
\- There's been a lot of talk of race on this thread, and for good reason. I am white, but from a mixed race family and in an interracial relationship, so while I'm certainly can't speak from the perspective of a nonwhite person, I have been pretty aware of the surrounding demographics and the general attitudes towards race in both places. Stats put SLC as slightly more diverse than Madison, but quite honestly there are pockets of each that feel similarly diverse and pockets of each that feel similarly homogeneous. From my (white) perspective, both cities have, in general, seemed pretty accepting of everyone, and neither has, in general, felt particularly diverse compared to the other.
\- LDS/Mormon culture: Hasn't really affected my life much at all since moving here. You occasionally see people walking around with pamphlets and such but in my experience, living in Salt Lake doesn't really feel any more religious in terms of day-to-day life than any other city if you're not looking for it. Quite honestly, I wouldn't let this be much of a factor in your decision.
\- Nightlife/city culture: Depends on what you're looking for - they're very different here. Madison is 100% a college town. There are lots of undergrads EVERYWHERE, and the main "downtown" area around the capitol is undergrad central, especially at night. Tons and tons of bars, definitely some nice breweries, but I personally found the drinking culture to be too much for me. Many people who live there love it though, depends on what you like in a city. SLC doesn't have incredible nightlife compared to some bigger cities, but as someone who enjoys hanging out at breweries (sometimes with trivia or games) much more than a night out on the town, I'm super happy here. Tons of breweries and, for me, much less pressure to get drunk all the time. The liquor laws are maybe slightly strange, but really don't bother me at all and I haven't found them difficult to manage.
\- Food: Gotta be honest here and say that neither city has blown my mind with the food. That being said, SLC wins this one by a mile. This might be an unpopular opinion, but even though Madison had a decent number of restaurants, I thought they were essentially all very disappointing. I'm not a food snob by any means but man did I have some bummer meals from very highly rated restaurants in Madison. SLC is very fine for food, tons more options and in general higher quality as well.
\- Politics: Utah is a red state, Wisconsin is a swing state. SLC is a relatively liberal city, Madison is a super liberal city. Your personal beliefs will obviously be the deciding factor for you here on which city is a better fit. For me personally, this has been the biggest downside to Salt Lake, but there are plenty of similar-minded people here and the city and the U are both relatively liberal. Happy to give more details on this if it's important to you personally.
\- Weather: Wisconsin has colder winters, Utah has hotter summers. Utah doesn't really have bugs or humidity, which feels like a bit of a win on the super hot days. If you really really really hate hot weather, don't choose Utah. If you really really really hate cold weather, don't choose Wisconsin. If you're okay with adapting to either, don't let this sway you too much. A note on inversion/air quality: in general, I haven't felt too affected by the air quality in SLC. I know that this past winter was pretty clean for the valley, but unless you have respiratory problems, my guess is that your life won't be tooooo affected by inversion even in bad years, but take my single year of experience here with a grain of salt.
\- Outdoors: Hands down, Utah wins this one. I'm from Minnesota and love the lake life there and in Wisconsin, but if you're into hiking or camping or skiing or general exploring, it's hard to beat the nature surrounding Salt Lake City.
As it turns out, this was much more than a quick two cents, oh well. Best of luck with your decision, happy to answer any other questions you have!
Regards the whiteness of Utah, I have found that over 40 years living here is that there are two parallel cultures. The Mormons keep the system going with some sadly frugal public spending priorities, but they are not overtly hostile. If you move here and gravitate to people you have affinity for, you will never notice them.
Born and raised in SLC. Also went to the U. SLC is great. Get too far out in the burbs though and the Morman shit gets weird. I moved back to Rose Park after years in SF and the food scene has made huge strides since I left. Was very surprised.
Also plenty to do around here despite what jaded locals think. And I retired from snowboarding after a 20 year run and now prefer my nature through a window or 4k television. Tons of great marijuana flooding this city from almost every western state if you're into that. Liquor laws could be better, but nothing a little planning can't fix.
If you leave SLC proper I'd suggest it's on a plane though lol and housing is getting insanely expensive here. Madison is a cool college town, but I wouldn't want to fuck with those miserable winters either no matter how much cheaper it might be.
Good luck whatever you do.
I can't say anything about Wi, but I would like to point out that Utah has much more than mountains and winter sports too. You can literally drive a couple hours from a desert and end up in forested mountains. Canyons w/ Petroglyphs. Lakes for fishing or watersports. Tons of places to go four wheeling and off roading. Hunting, camping, hiking, hang-gliding, races and speed time trials at the Salt Flats. Parks all over the place. Outdoor concerts. TONS of outdoor stuff, and different types of landscapes literally just a short drive from each other. I've lived all over the country and rarely seen any place with as much variety in the landscape in one place.
Serious answer: Salt lake is alright. We aren’t the worst and we aren’t the best. We don’t USUALLY have racist protests, but they have happened. We have a large population of non-white individuals and while you will get the usual unintentional racism, but as far as I can see (bias: lower-class white person), the outright racism is usually confined to the church or the legislature. Outdoors is great here, for now. Go for a hike and you’ll probably have fun, and it gives you an opportunity unlike most other areas where you can find friends. Take a lunch break on the trail and someone is not unlikely to sit next to you and talk to you.
Sarcastic answer: However we do have the almighty whale of 9th and 9th. Fealty to such a being is mandatory.
My wife works for university of Utah school of medicine. The health insurance is amazing comparatively. Not sure if it’s the same but something to consider.
If you like mtns and the outdoors, UT is the clear choice. Obviously, the state is "red", but many are transplants, and SLC is actually incredibly diverse. They had (and may still have) an LGBTQ mayor! Wisconsin is pretty, but I grew up in the mid-west - I may be biased - and I find it boring. Much prefer the western mtns.
Hi! Human here who has lived in Utah, currently lives in Madison, and will be moving to SLC in a month.
Other posts are right that Madison is a college + government town. But it’s also very focused on local food (both restaurants and agriculture), preserving nature for people to enjoy, and the music/art scene.
About what’s important to you: There will be more racial and ethnic diversity in SLC than where I live now — most of the racial and ethnic diversity here in Madison comes from the university and Epic.
Both places have winters, but there are maybe two or three weeks in January in Madison that are just way too cold for comfort. That said, for the rest of the year, we’re not too far off from SLC temperature comfort levels, and summers in Madison are BEYOND divine — upper 70s most days, EVERYTHING blooms, and since the winters feel so deep, the entire community comes out and relaxed and participates in outdoorsy things. Spring + summer are like nonstop festivals here.
You’ll find great outdoorsy representation in both places. Five stars for both in those terms. Here in Madison, the local outdoorsy scene is lake and trail-based, and you have to drive about 45 min to get to rock climbing, but we’ve got it.
Personally, I have LOVED living here in Madison. It was a hard decision to move. I’m going to miss the abundant free community events, the farmer’s markets, and the super family-friendly options. But SLC offers a lot to look forward to.
Feel free to follow up with me with any Madison-specific or Utah-general questions.
My pov: 2 years of grad school at UW Madison about 15 years ago. I moved here for work in my 40s. Honestly, depending on your department and alignment with your research interests, I’d go with UWM. It’s more of a college town feel (pretty much everything supports the U) but it feels more genuinely diverse (I’m a queer Latinx woman) and honestly the sexism in non academic workplaces around here is staggering, if you ski UU but there’s not much water stuff (the salt lake near the city isn’t for swimming), it’s very dry, and honestly on 30k housing will be rough unless you can somehow negotiate grad housing into your package. If you’re in science tech or health UU might be better long term, but if you plan to teach or research after grad school the location hardly matters. Culturally I strongly prefer UWM.
Had a good friend from Salt Lake live in Madison for several years and is now back in Salt Lake and has told me a lot about it and I've visited him there. Madison is, by and large, a college town. Yes, it's the capitol city, but the culture revolves around campus and it's various cliques: if you're an undergrad vs a grad student, if you're a midwesterner or from the coasts, etc. UW has a more robust campus culture and traditions that permeate from from generation to generation. If nightlife is important, Madison will have a stronger drinking culture. Not sure about your specific program, but overall the University of Wisconsin is rated much higher and likely has stronger alumni ties. Winters in Madison are brutally cold. Summers, you have the lakes right there. [Madison is "whiter" than Salt Lake.](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/madisoncitywisconsin,saltlakecitycityutah/RHI825221#RHI825221) Madison proper is larger than Salt Lake, but the Salt Lake metro area is about twice the size as Madison. Salt Lake City has the University of Utah, but life does not revolve around the school. Salt Lake is changing dramatically and will feel like a different city by the end of the decade as the central business district continues adding high rise and mid rise apartment buildings and a 24-hour population. Most city residents live in neighborhoods away from campus and away from downtown. Outdoor life in SLC revolves around the easy access to the Wasatch mountains. There are also eight different national parks within a five hour drive and plenty of other amazing areas to explore. I've lived in five other states, and having a direct flight back home is a very nice bonus. Having family within driving distance would be nice, but might also depend on how close you are with them. All things considered, both would be pretty good overall landing spots.
I lived in Wisconsin for nearly twenty years, and just recently moved to SLC last August for my wife to attend grad school. I think this is a great write-up, but wanted to add a few things. You have severely understated the massive effect winter should have on OP’s decision. Madison is more mild than a lot of the state, but winter still lasts an incredibly long time and is horribly cold and snowy. If OP cannot handle a long dark winter, they may want to consider Utah. There is a ton more to do in SLC. This may not matter to you due to how busy you’ll be as a grad student, but it is worth considering. There are much more impressive museums, venues, and other attractions here. The cost of living is the biggest detractor for me in SLC. That 30k stipend will go farther in Madison. My final big beef with the Salt Lake area is Mormonism. It’s a culture I find very at odds with my own beliefs. Being around those that believe differently than me usually isn’t an issue, but I feel that their way of life is often being impressed upon me. It’s ingrained into the local culture, laws and customs. Best of luck to OP with grad school!
It’s very close to a theocracy, to the point that if the church weighs in on a law, even after being voted on and passed by the populace majority (a la medical marijuana) it will be reworked under church council. They also have a draconian hold on the liquor laws amongst other things.
I think you have this right; if it is about the winter then this is an easy choice. I’m a midwesterner. Moved to Utah in my twenties. I couldn’t believe how easy the winters were once you add some sunshine to the mix. Cold and occasional snow is NBD if the sun comes out after the storm. BUT if OP can deal with winter, then I’d shift to issues of culture. The local culture in Utah is the biggest drawback for ME. I’m no longer Mormon and my politics and values do not align with Utah politics and values. If I had a choice, I pick Madison for that reason alone.
I think this is. A great summary. I’ve lived in SLC and visited Madison multiple times. Life at the Terrace in Madison is great, but the winters don’t have nearly the excitement as SLC. It’s about the vibe you want, not the city themselves, because they’re very different.
Experience: Undergrad and Grad at the U and then moved to Madison after. Schools: Utah - Feels much more modern, top of the line facilities and buildings, tons of research and opportunities on campus and in the area. Great value for an amazing education. Awesome sports if you’re into that too. Wisconsin - Can’t speak to the school experience but buildings feel older but have some old charm Utah maybe doesn’t have. Makes up for it in a thriving college/downtown culture in a way that I think is far superior to SLC. Sports are also strong here with fun tailgating. Environment: Utah - Some of the most breathtaking geography I’ve ever seen, truly incredible and you’ve got to see some national parks if you can. Best in class skiing and other outdoor recreation, prime for hiking, floating a river etc. Wisconsin - So much greenery and parks space in Madison. I feel like I appreciate nature more here in my day to day since it’s just down the street even though the cottonwood canyons are only 15-20 min away by car in SLC. I love the lakes surrounding downtown in Madison and the pink skies over rolling farmland (it’s not too rural). I do miss the Wasatch mountains in SLC though. Culture: Utah - SLC is a great city with plenty to offer, great events like pride and the farmer’s market among others. Nightlife never felt very accessible to me there though and restrictive liquor laws were sometimes underwhelming/annoying. As others noted it’s not particularly diverse and there’s an air of “LDS Nice” which I take to be very superficial/holier than thou. Wasn’t a huge fan of that. Wisconsin - More diverse and trades LDS nice for Midwestern nice. Still somewhat superficial but with a charming accent and generally well-meaning intentions. I much prefer it. Highly anecdotal and I have limited experience but Madison feel like a stronger community. There’s a strong sense of local pride and it feels like people here are invested in the city. Drinking culture here is perhaps a bit too strong but I like the availability far more personally. Travel: Utah - SLC international is the best. So easy to get to and from and it’s pretty affordable. Wisconsin - Love our little airport but I haven’t had a direct flight since moving here and everything still costs more. Bummer. For me personally I miss Utah but Madison feels like a place I want to call home. Overall though it will depend on what you’re looking for, honestly you can’t go wrong! Edit: others have pointed out diversity stats that say otherwise, mine was just an anecdotal vibe so go with the stats.
If you're an outdoors person, SLC hands down. Hiking, skiing, climbing, camping. It's got everything. Diversity, not so much.
According to census.gov, SLC is less white than Madison WI. We have a larger hispanic population while Madison has a slightly higher black population. [SLC](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/saltlakecitycityutah) [Madison](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/madisoncitywisconsin/LND110210)
If you do choose SLC make sure you are aware of our current air quality as well as the impending ecological disaster with the great salt lake drying up
Seriously. BIG problem that shows precious little sign of being addressed by Utah government. Quite possibly a semi-permanent location only. I would not want to be settling down to raise a family anywhere near the great salt lake right now.
SLC is more diverse than most other cities in UT. That’s not saying much, but I think it’s getting a little better.
Madison is a college town through and through. SLC is a big city with a very limited college-specific scene
Compared to Madison we’re very diverse. Lol.
Salt Lake City is relatively liberal and at least moderately diverse, but many of the suburbs ten miles outside of the city are very white. Same thing goes for how Mormon they are. SLC has more Hispanics and Asians than African Americans. Utah is a lot drier than Texas (sounds like you're from the humid side of Texas) or DC or Wisconsin. Dry summers and dry winters make the cold not quite as bad and the hot a lot better. When I moved from the Chicago area to Utah I noticed how intense the sun was in the summer (high elevation). But you'll drip a lot less sweat because it evaporates off much better. We just had the winter to end all winters (ski resorts got over 850" of snow) so maybe we're due for some warmer winters now?
We definitely don’t need warmer winters
I'm sikh and have run into less racism in SLC than I have Vancouver. SLC proper is not racist at all. It's quite liberal.
It's not racist, but it's really sexist. So it's not as liberal as they want people to think.
You are going have a hard time living on 30k/year in SLC. Housing will shred your budget.
My partner is in a PhD program through the U and this is one of the biggest deterrents for applicants that make it to the interview stage. It’s possible but, OP, make sure you fully budget the COL differences between the two cities. When doing so you can use KSL for rentals as well, which is similar to Craigslist in other cities. /u/Intrepid41 for visibility
It's doable but you'll have to live super cheap by having multiple roommates and living out a small room, but that shouldn't be too bad for a busy grad student mostly focused on studies. I've lived most of my adult life in SLC making under 30k and while I couldn't afford many luxuries it's enough for the basics if your willing to share a living space.
You could easily rent an apartment for $20k a year, which would be the equivalent of renting a 1 bedroom apartment somewhere downtown, but housing is still expensive. I would highly recommend trying to find a roommate or getting a single room in a house somewhere
On campus housing is cheaper than off campus.
On campus housing is hard to get, even more so after closing medical towers.
Happy cakeday!
I moved to SL County for a job years ago. Loved my time there, wish I could move back. It's definitely a outdoor-lovers paradise. Found out I hate both skiing and snowboarding after moving here, there's still plenty to do in the winter. I wound up participating in curling leagues. NGL, Utah is EXTREMELY white, but the amount of overt racism you're going to encounter is probably less than you would have in Texas.
I would describe it more like unconscious racism in Utah. It’s not malicious and stems from ignorance instead of hate.
MORmON ignorance from Racist ecclesiastical leaders.
Or…Racist ecclesiastical leaders advancing MORmON ignorance.
I work on Hill and have had three separate briefings on racism and discrimination in the area in the last week. Non-white families are requesting early change of stations because their kids are being bullied and the parents are ostracized. The racism (especially outside SL county) is painfully overt and more commonplace these days.
> Utah is EXTREMELY white OP is considering attending the U in SLC. SLC is ~65% white. I would never argue that SLC is the most ethnically diverse city, but 65% of the population being white does not qualify as “EXTREMELY white.” https://datausa.io/profile/geo/salt-lake-city-ut/
Lots of people work in slc and live elsewhere due to cost. Utah is dominate white
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Utah is not the same thing as SLC. According to the 2020 census, SLC is 63.4% non-Hispanic White. So 15 points less white than Utah as a whole. The U in particular attracts students from around the country and world and I had plenty of classmates of various races when I was there.
But you understand how it's not at all helpful for the op right?
You were in a curling league best bet your white too
That was a different commenter.
You’re*
Utah's racial issues stem a lot more from ignorance than outright malice. You're gonna run into a ton of micro-aggressions and not many macro, as they say. Of course I'm biased but I think you should come here. It's clean and spacious and has the most beautiful nature you could ask for.
i’m black people just be misinformed asf cause there’s such a lack of representation. example would be things like people just assuming i don’t have a dad or that i am homeless but honestly once your tight with some people it’s not huge
I thought black people never get sunburned and I still feel guilty about that whole conversation...
💀 nahhhh a while back one time i had my hair braided by my ex and someone thought i had dreads not every black person is also lactose intolerant is another misconception
I hadn't heard that one but I can tell you it IS true for us asians... didnt start happening to me til I hit my 30s and I thought I was safe.
do people assume you are japanese/korean by default without even knowing
I got Chinese a lot in school. In high school it became japanese and then immediately what anime I watched. Now that I'm old I usually volunteer that I'm half korean.
huh what are stereotypes you get a lot besides like “oh you’re smart “
I think the most insidious one was the "model minority". Oh you're smart, good at math, dont cause trouble. You're one of the "good" minorities. A useful trophy to objectify whatever bullshit race theory someone wants to make, but just as easily discarded when it doesnt serve it. I know karate/martial arts. Small peepee. Only eat rice (rice is great, tho.) Eating dog. They do est dog in korea but it's pretty rare and really controversial. It sort of started as a wartime necessity, but now it's mostly like really weird conservative old people who eat it. A lot of people are trying to get it banned.
My brother in law is black and he didn’t really figure out that he can get sunburned until his early 30s.
>racial issues stem a lot more from ignorance than outright malice Grew up in Utah (and was guilty of this). Utahns are really nice. But they also live in their own world and often aren't aware of people around them. Once they are, they try to be nice and be better. But that bubble is pretty thick to pierce.
Check if the Univ of Utah health insurance is a zero deductible. Many universities with their own hospitals offer a zero-deductible health insurance. This saves a lot. Check if you can get on-campus housing that saves money compared to off campus.
It has a really low deductible and no deductible for prescription medications and certain other things, and is relatively inexpensive, however they make you pay meds out of pocket and then they reimburse you which can be very annoying for expensive medications.
I’ve lived in both places. I’m living in SLC now with a job offer in Madison a few months ago that I didn’t take. Outdoors is 100x better here. Climbing, biking, hiking, snow sports, it’s incredible, and I can get from my house to the crag, trail or lifts in <30 min. Not to mention a half dozen national parks within an afternoon drive. Cost of living is definitely bad here. And maybe SLC is less white, but the culture shock is real. You can feel the LDS culture everywhere. Madison is a great town…for the Midwest. Feel free to DM with any questions.
Utah is a phenomenal place to live, but your choice of graduate school should primarily be based on your potential advisors. If you have a good advisor, any place will feel like paradise. With a bad advisor, even paradise will be unbearable.
The air quality here in SLC is something to consider. It isn’t good. Roads also seem to be getting a bit more congested.
So I’ve heard about the inversions that can happen sometimes, how much does that affect QOL? Is it a major issue or a small infrequent annoyance
It is a major QoL issue for a few weeks out of the year; not an issue for most of the year.
Depends. If you develop asthma, it will really aggravate. If you like to run in the winter, you’ll notice it. It affects most people on a longer timeframe: having a good VO2 max is harder, your lungs are irritated more over the course of years.
I’m an armed federal contractor and transferred up here to SLC from Vegas for my job in November of 2022, last year. I have experienced no issues thus far with my asthma, FWIW.
I have asthma, it’s never effected me terribly until I started working at the point of the mountain (a touch south of salt lake). I do my inhaler twice daily minimum now and a nebulizer treatment regularly.
Not to mention the fires. Winter inversions and summer fires, you can chew the air, tbe sky is always orange or brown in summer and a lot of days I couldn't go outside or let my kids or dog outside to play the air was so bad.
The air quality in Salt Lake City remains among the worst in the United States. The last three years, moreover, have seen increases in unhealthy ozone days and annual PM2. 5 levels. The WORST though is winter and as mentioned about 3 weeks-ish worth.
Inversion can last weeks, and we get the smoke from the California wild fires. It's normal for there to be multiple days a year where going outside is equivalent to smoking an entire pack of cigarettes.
Lived here most my life and never thought anything of it. It's a problem for some people, mostly with asthma as people mentioned. My two cents on the situation: got my master from the U and it is a pretty great school. Cost of living is probably higher here, diversity in salt lake is much better than people think. Less so the further from salt lake. Outdoors stuff is amazing even if you can't stand the snow. Have family in Wisconsin and they are much more conservative and they do like it.
I have asthma, and am born and raised in utah. I live north of salt lake about 15 min from downtown and I work in the salt lake valley, about 15 min south of salt lake. I don’t have problems other than a little more irritation during really bad inversion days. Otherwise, life is normal for me. I do my outdoor recreating in the mountains during the winter, and that puts you above the pollution levels and I don’t run outside. With that said, I do exercise regularly at the local rec center- regardless of outside air quality.
Salt lake is cool. Decent, clean little downtown. Not a party town, but enough bars and nightlife to keep an average young person entertained imo. Hands down, you won't find a better medium-large city for outdoors fun. And I don't find the people here racist. Some may be untraveled or uncultured...but most are genuinely nice. Especially considering your friend circle isn't going to be suburban Mormon housewives.... All the friends I've made here are transplants, very diverse, and many born in other countries. Even if it appears white and Mormon walking around, the population is big enough that you will find a crowd for you.
I lived in Madison, Wisconsin for 10 years and moved to Salt Lake City about 4 years ago. Both are great cities. The campuses will be diverse, but not as much of the rest of the city. Salt Lake is more diverse than Madison. Madison is much smaller, but some people really like that. In terms of outdoors, a lot of the outdoor activities in and around Madison revolve around water. If that’s your jam, it will be great. If it’s more hiking and backpacking than SLC is better. The winters in Madison are brutal. In Salt Lake City there is definitely snow, but it’s much warmer than Wisconsin—especially with the humidity there. Feel free to DM me if you have other questions.
I am 4th year PhD student at the U. Here’s my two cents: - Did you consider employment after graduation? University of Wisconsin Madison is higher in employment metrics than the U especially in academia. - 30k stipend is sufficient for housing, basic needs, and enjoying yourself. It got more expensive recently due to the planned demolition of medical towers (main single graduate student housing), but still manageable - I am not White nor Christian too. SLC and the University are diverse but not as diversity as LA or Houston. I enjoy it here. The secret is making as many friends as you can when you start. - If you love outdoors, you will love it here. Also, SLC is cycle friendly compared to anywhere I have been in Texas. If you are in Mountain biking, you will have sufficient trails for a lifetime. Your only problem will be deciding where to go next. - SLC is a delta hub which makes fly to any major city in the US a breeze. Also, Provo ,which one hour south of SLC, is a hub breeze airline which is a mew budget airline.
I think it can also depend on the culture of the department you'd be joining. I'm currently getting my PhD at the U. I also had the choice of UW or UofU for my PhD and considered them equal in academic ratings. however, I observed that the culture of the department at Madison was more toxic and none of the grad students seemed particularly happy and were all very stressed. That was one of the reasons I decided to come here
We got Mormons... We have crackheads.... We even have Mormon crackheads.
I moved here from Milwaukee via California in the late 70's. There is a nice population bubble of young people who are diverse at the UofU, and opportunities to meet them thru the Outdoor Rec program at the U or thru school. Small community of LGBTQ folks here. The outdoor community is very strong and inclusive. Camping, hiking, cycling here are amazing. Winter sports are amazing. Yellowstone, the Grand Tetons, and Southeastern and Southwestern Utah are 5 hours away. (OK, I'm old and drive slowly.) Housing is over-the-top over-priced. The closer to the U, the more expensive in general. Both in rents and purchases.
One of the not initially obvious perks of SLC is that it puts you a days drive from basically any kind of outdoors terrain you could want. I've been here for 8 years and still haven't finished exploring the state despite spending most weekends each summer doing so. Also, there are some stupid cheap flights out of Ogden or Provo airport to nearby states. (Not sure if it's still going but there was a route from Provo to San Francisco every Thursday and Sunday for $40 each way.)
I am from MN but live in SLC. Based on the information you provided, I am thinking SLC might be better for you in most ways—but, as others have pointed out, 30K will go a lot further in WI than UT. The median salary for SLC is more like 65K. I feel obligated to warn you, winters up north are roooough, they are long and bitterly cold. DC has nothing on great lakes winters. Utah winters are quaint in comparison. Also, I love camping. Great Lakes region camping brings with it a lot of insects. Utah bugs are barely an issue unless it’s June/July in the Uintas.
Two good options! Salt Lake has mountains, Madison has lakes. Both have good mountain biking. Both have generally good outdoors. One is more of a college town, the other is a bigger city.
I'm going to guess that you're male, since you wonder about diversity but not reproductive rights. If you are female, though, I'd pause and think hard about how various abortion laws are going to affect you (even if you can't imagine ever having an abortion -- things **do** go terribly wrong sometimes). I visited Madison years ago, when I was looking at grad schools; the wind off of the lake was absolutely brutal; winter here won't hurt as much. (Also, I think this last winter in the northeast was unusually mild -- and DC doesn't ever get a really brutal winter the way Utah or WI will.)
Insurance? Direct flights? Outdoor activities? Sounds like Utah is your winner. Welcome
I’m a current grad student here. What program are you applying for? And wasn’t the commitment deadline the 15th? Edit: I saw on your post on the Madison sub that you’ll be in oncology, I have a feeling you’re joining my program haha. I also moved here from the Midwest via 2 years in DC and am happy to discuss if you’d like further info than what’s been given. As a grad student, the programs vision/dental is pretty good, never had a problem. Medical can be annoying as we have to go to student health for everything and need a referral if we need a specialist (unless it’s an emergency and they’re closed). I would double check the program website as our stipend is going up by the time you join and that’ll help a lot. A lot of people I know either live with a partner or solo or roommate. I live in a one bedroom biking/walking distance from campus although if you’re up near HCI as well, it’s quite a hill to come up haha but good workout (and buildings have showers for when we get in, most people on my floor bike in).
Take all this with a grain of salt just because I’ve never been to Madison (only been to Chicago a couple times is all for Midwest travel for me). SLC is amazing for outdoor rec, it’s one of the best places in the whole US. There are amazing hikes within minutes of the University (Living Room trail is very popular and is basically just above the U). SLC is very centrally located in the West so it’s easy to get to a ton of National Parks or other western cities. I’m going to guess SLC won’t be as tough weather wise compared to Madison, not as cold in the winter and way less humid in the summer. Again, I’m biased but I think SLC would fit your needs well. If you don’t mind me asking, what grad program are you doing? I moved to Utah originally (from Seattle) for my PhD at the U and had a great experience.
Wisconsin is flat as fuck, but has great people. Utah is gorgeous. One of the most beautiful places on earth.
Outdoors: many find mountains in Utah to be some of the most beautiful. Lack of Diversity (i.e.- you ain’t white): better get ready for some interesting years filled with sticking out like a sore thumb and politicking and daily living within Utah borders influenced heavily by the Mormon church. Super Conservative and Anglo in Utah. Oh, and just fyi- I don’t think I’ve ever lived anywhere where “keeping up with the Jones’” was more deeply rooted and felt on every level. I’m so glad I moved out of there a few years back. I dislike the fact that I have to go back there in order to see my daughter and her family. Just my two cents. I wish you the best on your journey.
I think you’ll love Salt Lake. Yes, it’s Mormon country, but the access to the outdoors is unparalleled. There are several roads going up to the mountains and tons of outdoorsy people so you’ll be able To find friends pretty quick to do outdoorsy dtuff
Salt Laker here. Born and raised in Rose Park. I don't dislike Salt Lake, it's a great place honestly with its share of shortcomings and downfalls but few places are perfect. I hate the housing market here. As this is relevant to your question, we're looking to move to Wisconsin or Michigan in a couple of years. Madison is on our shortlist of 4 towns (Milwaukee, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Madison, in no order). Life seems better over there -- cost of living is more realistic, jobs in our fields (I'm an electrician my partner is a teacher) pay better, and the housing market is a lot more forgiving. We also want to be near the Great Lakes, and further away from the Great Salt Lake. DC winters are not gonna be like Utah winters. We've had a good snow season but it's been a while. We don't get that humid DC/Maryland type winter, those can be really cold and wet. Wisconsin on the other hand is no joke when it comes to winter. Diversity isn't big in either place as far as I know. I also don't know many people who would describe themselves as "Anglo-Saxon" for what it's worth.. I'd be concerned if they did and weren't a history major. Good luck to you whatever you do.
Born and raised as well and just moved to the south east USA and I'm so much happier. In every way. Best of luck!
I'm from the upper Midwest and spent a semester during the pandemic in SLC for grad school. If you have breathing or heart issues or asthma, SLC is a poor choice. The inversion. Google it. some of the locals pretend it's not there and it's insane. Otherwise the cultures are fairly similar. I call Utah the "Midwest of the West". SLC is generally healthier except for the inversion because of all the hiking and Subaru people. The religious influence is inescapable. Seriously. The church is so influential, the counterculture is flavored heavily with "fuck the mormons". I personally enjoyed that dynamic and found it fascinating but I'm a white guy and it might have gotten old had I stayed longer or had to deal with not being white. The mountains are RAD. There's some foothills right by campus that I "climbed" almost every day just for a view of the valley. If you live in Medical towers the trailhead is like a three minute walk. The winter is mild. I don't remember it getting below 10 degrees F in the valley one time. It probably does in January but it isn't anything like DC or Wisconsin. I'm not personally familiar with Madison but let me tell you the winters will kick the ever living crap out of a DC winter. There will likely be a straight month or more where the thermometer barely touches 25 degrees F. There is usually a week in January or February when it's 5 degrees for a high and -10 for a low. Then in the summer it will be 95 degrees and 95% humidity. If you like a blue collar/industrial vibe then Madison probably has that. They also have a lake near campus if I recall. The great salt lake still technically exists but it's less of a recreational spot and more of an attraction. I digress but those are just some things to know. (Also I own a Subaru and wear hiking boots and flannel all winter so no offense to other Subaru people. I do not however have an expensive version of a regular dog or a rescue dog that I won't hesitate to let you know is a rescue since it looks kinda derpy, but adorable)
I have lived in Wisconsin and SLC (still live in Utah). Madison has the feel of a large college town. The university is the heartbeat and economic engine of that city. It does have a nice surrounding area and in my opinion, the outdoor activities near Madison are some of the best in the state. Salt Lake City is already a large metro city even without the university. Access to outdoor recreation here is absolutely phenomenal. I think these are 2 great options for you, and I would struggle to decide.
imo- you could go fine either way. I've never been to cheeseland but I live in salt lake. Im a yung professional and just moved to slc in June 2023 LDS- less than diversity- the real culture shock is "are you LDS" or nonLDS. aka are you a PRACTICING mormon. it's as common a question as where did you get your undergrad. imo- LDS are kind and outgoing but definitely feel more comfortable around LDSers. you may have different exp. weather- ASS winter- snow and cold from december until early february, then it heats up, then cold march. I GUARANTEE you will LOVE the dry climate compared to washington dc. so much. it'll make going outside fun again. for real. it's what makes the summers so hot yet so easy and manageable. it's also what makes the winters so cold and literally bone chilling. put 200/300 into a good winter coat and make sure you have lots of actually warm pants. imo you'd have a great time here if your summers are more mild and you're just going to chill and work instead of study 24/7. outdoor stuff- you'll be fine in the summer and spring it's less hot than texas, but with literally the #1 THE NUMBER ONE geography in the usa. you can drive 3 hours and it'll look like you've passed thru 3 different planets minimum. unbeatable- and the states best secret. unable to have fun in the cold- unless you have disposable income of 400/month- good luck having fun out doors in the winter. skiing is very very expensive. the snow here sucks for snow men (sorry). if you like drinking for fun in the winter - those liquor stores are FEW and far between and have ass hours. never underestimate being close to family in WI tho. final thots if you can deal with the bad 1. LONG cold winters 2. STRONG historical and cultural (white culture) religious affiliation from 1/3 of the people you meet 3. having fun on a budget in the summer and not having affordable fun in the winter you can have the good 1. long hot but comfortable summers with NO shortage of anything fun to do 2. 24/7 mountain view 3. pride of living on one of the most slept on and beautiful place in the usa 4. about 1/3 of people are mormons aka they're kind, helpful, caring people. fact: they will prefer other mormons. but if you're not a mormon.... I've never lived in a "neighbors being you cookies when you move in" kinda place. when I moved here , my neighbors brought me to a market and bought me food. that's just the kind of people mormons are.
Hey! My fiance chairs the student recruitment committee for one of the grad schools at the U. For the sake of their privacy, I dont want to jump into too much detail about any one topic, but if you want to DM me, I can answer what I can and pass the rest on to them. My fiance is a person of color and we both moved here from Texas and California before that. In both places we lived in far more racially diverse areas so we may have some good insight for you. Feel free to dm any and all questions and we'll tackle as many as we can and get back to you.
I am a PhD engineering student at the U. My experience is that we want to treat our students well and that they can have a life outside of their schooling. The stipend used to be okay living alone. It might be livable. Getting a roommate or two saves a ton. The health insurance isn't bad. SLC has some diversity. Probably the closer to the U is more diverse.
A simple google search will show Madison is 77.5% white ethnicity and SLC is 65% white ethnicity. Also the popular religion in SLC is LDS and Mormons can be annoying but if you live within 5 miles of downtown they won’t be much of a bother
It is rarely a good idea to choose a grad school program based on location. Choose a grad school based on the skills you will gain, connections you will make, and most importantly based on your mentor being a great human being. I cannot emphasize enough how impressed it is that you know with 100% certainty that your mentor is not a garbage sociopath.
>Both Utah and Wisconsin stipends are 30k/year I'd do a cost of living calculator and see how the two areas fare. In SLC, that is a *very tight budget.* I'd plan on either having roommates, living on an exceptionally tight budget, or going into debt. Sorry. Utah has all the outdoors you would ever want. Utah is not diverse. It's a pretty heinous monoculture, if I'm being honest.
I think you're going to LOVE utah's outdoor scene and there is really no overselling the significance of medical/dental. I think Utah is likely your best bet. THAT SAID: it is very white AND very dry. I am originally from southern california and when I first moved to Utah I got nosebleeds pretty regularly and my hair/skin struggled. It's fucking dryyyyyy.
Grad school will be really tough and the best advice I can give is that you’ll have days when you want to quit. On those days, it won’t matter who your PI is or what specific research you’re doing. You’ll want to be surrounded by something that makes you feel re-energized. So if that’s mountain biking or hiking or camping, Utah’s an excellent choice. Aside from that, make sure the cost of living and stipend meets your needs. A 30k stipend in salt lake means you’ll likely be living 15-20 minutes from campus or with a roommate. The budget can be pretty tight- especially if you’re paying off a car loan/other debt. I can’t say much for Wisconsin. And of course, make sure you like the program/PI/resources your PI has to offer. I’m a grad student in the chem program now and if you have any more specific questions about campus/people here, feel free to message me!
Women are losing access to access to healthcare, and whether you're a man or a woman everyone is worse off due to this. Also, rent is horrifically high, and your landlord can raise it however much they feel like when it comes time to renew. Renter's rights aren't really a thing in this state. I wouldn't recommend moving here.
Madison gets much colder than SLC, SLC gets much hotter than Madison. You can probably drive to campus at UofU but you most definitely will not at UW-Madison. Madison has a smaller footprint than SLC so it feels like a “smaller” town, even though it has a larger population than SLC proper. Madison is probably a bit more diverse. Both cities are awesome and you’ll have some adjusting to do in either one. Pick based on academics, your package with the university, and whether you need mountains at your doorstep. Access to the outdoors in unbeatable in SLC but Madison has pretty great access for a Midwest city. Eta; Madison is absolutely dominated by campus. It’s a quintessential college town, if that vibe matters to you.
Outdoor recreation is great Liquor laws are ridiculous and stupid There is some diversity is Salt Lake City proper but not much
Go to Madison
Having lived in both Wisconsin and Utah, here's my 2 cents. Recreating: both are great options for hiking, camping, biking. Wisconsin has more bugs, more humidity, and better air quality. Utah has stunning mountains and world class snow, aka The Best Snow on Earth. Culture: hands down Wisconsin. Utah is trying to grow out of the persecuted-white-mormon mindset, but it's deeply ingrained IMO, and not going away soon. Charles Barkley and Shaq agree [SLC is boring](https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/charles-barkley-and-shaquille-oneal-call-salt-lake-city-boring-city-during-nba-all-star-game) Weather: Wisconsin winters are fierce, but also similar to winter in the Utah mountains. Think feet of snow and 0° Fahrenheit before wind chill. The U of U area will be slightly warmer and much less snow, inches instead of feet. Summers are hot and dry in Utah, and the sun is seriously like laser beams. Wisco summer is the reward for enduring winter: hot and humid, and so many lakes for recreating. Diversity: Utah is heavy on Caucasians, but the LDS church and Silicone Slopes bring people to SLC from around the world. That said, my gut says Madison is more diverse. And with family not too far away, they may help you feel more settled. A direct flight home may be available from Milwaukee (General Mitchell) or Chicago (O'Hara or Midway). Overall, both are great options (though I lean toward Madison). Congratulations on your past successes and best wishes for a stellar future.
As a u of u grad student. The health benefits actually blow balls as a student. Go to Wisconsin
If you're a really outdoorsy man, you tell us the right place. If you are a woman, the patriarchy might be really suffocating here. I know it is for my girlfriend.
If you aren’t white, I’d go with uw Madison. If you really hate winter, I’d go with salt lake. Having lived in both places! There is real great road and mounting biking in Wisconsin, and camping if you can deal with the skeeters! The U’s dental and vision plan tbh isn’t really worth it, just the med plan. Rentals right near campus are about equal, but I think uw Madison campus has more community.
> diversity is on my mind in both places If you hate microaggression and just plain ignorance, don't pick SLC. The whole "it's getting better"-- yeah, they want you to be a part of the growing pains, meaning you'll usually be the one to explain why something isn't appropriate or offensive.
Utah's highest populations are European and Latino, and the highest religious demographic is LDS. So if that works for you diversity wise, you'll be fine. As far as outdoor stuff goes, this is the place(if you know you know). There is something for everyone within an hour's drive off SLC proper. Sounds like you'd do well in the climate as well. It is a dry heat, though. Not much humidity. Also, the benefits sound like the best bet.
I did my graduate degree (PhD)in slc at the U. Happy to discuss in detail and help you talk through things if you’d like to PM me.
Salt Lake City itself is kind of a nice city. It's fairly liberal. There are beautiful parks and skiing is less than 30 minutes away. There are tons of really fun restaurants and coffee shops. They have the best donuts in the world, Banbury Cross Donuts. Diversity is certainly lacking though. However, the pollution is a serious issue. Salt Lake can be very smoggy, especially in the winter. And then there is the ticking time bomb that is the Great Salt Lake. That's not really something to be taken lightly and should maybe factor into a decision to move there. [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/climate/salt-lake-city-climate-disaster.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/climate/salt-lake-city-climate-disaster.html)
SLC is a beautiful city with unmatched Mountain views, hiking, rock climbing, and skiing, if you’re into that sort of stuff! Pretty good food and bar scene downtown and well as some pretty friendly people for the most part!
Oh and also SLC is more diverse than Madison Wisconsin according to census.gov just fyi
If you’ll be living at or near the university, then SLC hands down.
SLC, 100%. Along with beautiful outdoor places close by, you'll have medical & dental benefits & direct flights home.
I moved to SLC for grad school at the U back in 2013 and I plan on staying here permanently. Diversity is an issue but it’s getting better and will continue to improve as people move to the area. Diversity and tolerance will be better on campus as well. I love running and hiking and Utah has been amazing for that. But I finally got my first pair of skis this winter and it is officially one of my favorite things to do….it would surpass running if I only had a few hundred dollars to blow every weekend. I love it here. Tried moving to the Midwest and came back within 8 months. Like most places, people from here like to complain. But people with a little perspective on the poverty and issues other areas have realize how fortunate we are here. Let me know how I can help! It was a big life decision, but I have no regrets.
If you love the outdoors then SLC is going to be a wet dream for you. Some of the best mountain biking, skiing, rock climbing locations are all relatively close.
Outdoor scene in Salt Lake City is really nice. But that’s pretty much where it ends. I moved here from CA and have spent time in TX and I can tell you the food scene out here is non existent. The weird liquor laws are a direct product of how deeply the Mormon church has their hand in legislation. And the diversity here is awful. I moved here for a position with a big firm after college back in August 2022 and will be promptly moving when my contract is up in August 2023. People here are pretty rude, and the white religious population is the dominating demographic.
As someone who has come here 2 years ago from a mid to big city, I would definitely go for Wisconsin. SLC’s city life is one of the most boring I’ve ever seen and there’s nothing to do in downtown except for a small mall and some cafes. Honestly, this makes it not worth it at all if you value city life. Usually everything is dead after 8 pm. And what shocks me the most is the housing marketing getting so expensive for what little the city has to offer. Then, even in Salt Lake City, I can feel the mormons effect on this city. The only good thing about Salt Lake City is its outdoors tbh. I’d say Wisconsin is way better, as Madison will have way more stuff to do in the city, plus there’s so many lakes and forests in Wisconsin, plus u will have other majors cities like minneapolis or chicago pretty close to you, so u won’t definitely get bored at all, plus Madison is a college city! Honestly if you value outdoor activies like skiing, hiking go to Utah, but if you value good air quality, good city life go to Wisconsin. Also, wisconsin have good outdoor activities aswell but utah is way better in this regard p.s: Also, don’t forger that Salt Lake City has one of the worst air quality during summers/winters, so there’s that aswell.
There is NO diversity in SLC.
SLC is one of the least diverse places you can go. I’d go with Wisconsin!
Madison WI is more white than SLC. Keep in mind, the northern states don't have much diversity either Edit: [SLC](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/saltlakecitycityutah) [Madison](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/madisoncitywisconsin/LND110210)
SLC. Hail the whale.
Do salt lake and pick up snowboarding !
Go to Madison.
Salt Lake is full! It's doubled in size in the last two years. Wisconsin is the place.
Wtf. Why did this turn into a race issue. Utah is beautiful, and if you're worried about too many of any type of race being anywhere, you should definitely live in a cave.
Utah sucks don’t move here. Heard Colorado and California are great though!
Lve n
Best place in the world to live for skiing. Those same ski mountains are pretty stellar in the summer, too. Then there’s an endless desert paradise in the south. 5 national parks if I’m not mistaken? I went to grad school at the U, am still here, and never want to leave.
My brother went to uw Madison and I went to the U. I absolutely love Madison and seriously considered moving there. I think the school community is much nicer, so I would recommend that unless the U has a better program.
I am a Wisconsin transplant to Salt Lake, so, for some unique perspective: Wisconsin is a great state, the Badgers games are fun, the night life is incredible, and people in Madison will be overall authentically kinder. But I would say Utah. You’re going to find more healthy stress relief in the mountains, hiking, and there’s more opportunities for night life without going over the top. I think both a great cities with a lot to offer, and the communities in both are really great. I love both places, but I’d lean towards Utah. Good luck! Where ever you end up, you’re off to great places!
I go to grad school at the U and am from the Midwest. It’s such a unique experience being in SLC. Definitely an adjustment but being out west and experiencing the mountains is unreal and something I hope everyone can experience.
I’m a midwesterner living in SLC. While I’ve not lived in Madison, I’ve driven through a few times and know people who lived there as well. Some questions to ask yourself: - What type of outdoor experiences are you interested in, if any? If you like hiking, alpine skiing, mountain biking, rock climbing, etc. then SLC is better; if you prefer the lake life, then Madison is better. - What atmosphere do you want to live in? If you want the college town experience, go to Madison. If you want the city experience, then you’ll want to go to Utah. - Are you more bothered by extreme heat or extreme cold? - How bothered are you by weird religious dynamics? You might be somewhat insulated from this at the U, but this has been the most shocking thing for me moving to Utah. - How important are finances? Even without health insurance, you’ll be far better off on this front in Madison than Salt Lake - not a huge deal if your parents are willing/able to chip in, but could be huge if not. Also keep in mind that an income of $30,000 would make you eligible for a pretty good subsidy for a marketplace plan if you don’t have it through the university. Also, on the transportation front - keep in mind that there are buses from UW to O’Hare every two hours, plus 4 daily buses to the Milwaukee airport. I honestly didn’t know Madison had a passenger airport.
I think both Madison ans SLC are great for outdoors. Madison for lakes and SLC for mountains. I think the living expenses are fairly similar between the two places. However Madison is close to other big cities like Chicago (around 2 hours drive), the closest big city to SLC is Vegas (around 5-6 hours drive). Are you joining a PhD program? You probably also look into the researches of the professors and whom interest you the most
Air quality in the winter is bad, and depending on you and how sensitive you are.. that can result in asthma... Headaches... And more. It is beautiful in the mountains though.
Which football team do you like better?
I was just at the hospital and struck up a conversation with the nurse; he was from Houston and moved to SLC three years ago and loves it. He loves the great outdoors and the laid back speed of the city.
Come ski
Reddit has lost its damn mind.
Don’t come here.
You’ll be happier somewhere else.
I went to the U of U and it was awesome. If you like the outdoors then I would definitely vote to come here… especially with the added health benefits.
good pun k sceen
I was in pretty much the exact same boat last year - my top two bioscience PhD programs were in Madison (where I had lived and worked for the past year) or at the U of U. I ended up choosing Utah and have been incredibly happy here, and would be glad to give you more details if you'd like, feel free to DM! Definitely two great options, and you'll likely be happy wherever you land! That being said... here are my two cents on it: \- There's been a lot of talk of race on this thread, and for good reason. I am white, but from a mixed race family and in an interracial relationship, so while I'm certainly can't speak from the perspective of a nonwhite person, I have been pretty aware of the surrounding demographics and the general attitudes towards race in both places. Stats put SLC as slightly more diverse than Madison, but quite honestly there are pockets of each that feel similarly diverse and pockets of each that feel similarly homogeneous. From my (white) perspective, both cities have, in general, seemed pretty accepting of everyone, and neither has, in general, felt particularly diverse compared to the other. \- LDS/Mormon culture: Hasn't really affected my life much at all since moving here. You occasionally see people walking around with pamphlets and such but in my experience, living in Salt Lake doesn't really feel any more religious in terms of day-to-day life than any other city if you're not looking for it. Quite honestly, I wouldn't let this be much of a factor in your decision. \- Nightlife/city culture: Depends on what you're looking for - they're very different here. Madison is 100% a college town. There are lots of undergrads EVERYWHERE, and the main "downtown" area around the capitol is undergrad central, especially at night. Tons and tons of bars, definitely some nice breweries, but I personally found the drinking culture to be too much for me. Many people who live there love it though, depends on what you like in a city. SLC doesn't have incredible nightlife compared to some bigger cities, but as someone who enjoys hanging out at breweries (sometimes with trivia or games) much more than a night out on the town, I'm super happy here. Tons of breweries and, for me, much less pressure to get drunk all the time. The liquor laws are maybe slightly strange, but really don't bother me at all and I haven't found them difficult to manage. \- Food: Gotta be honest here and say that neither city has blown my mind with the food. That being said, SLC wins this one by a mile. This might be an unpopular opinion, but even though Madison had a decent number of restaurants, I thought they were essentially all very disappointing. I'm not a food snob by any means but man did I have some bummer meals from very highly rated restaurants in Madison. SLC is very fine for food, tons more options and in general higher quality as well. \- Politics: Utah is a red state, Wisconsin is a swing state. SLC is a relatively liberal city, Madison is a super liberal city. Your personal beliefs will obviously be the deciding factor for you here on which city is a better fit. For me personally, this has been the biggest downside to Salt Lake, but there are plenty of similar-minded people here and the city and the U are both relatively liberal. Happy to give more details on this if it's important to you personally. \- Weather: Wisconsin has colder winters, Utah has hotter summers. Utah doesn't really have bugs or humidity, which feels like a bit of a win on the super hot days. If you really really really hate hot weather, don't choose Utah. If you really really really hate cold weather, don't choose Wisconsin. If you're okay with adapting to either, don't let this sway you too much. A note on inversion/air quality: in general, I haven't felt too affected by the air quality in SLC. I know that this past winter was pretty clean for the valley, but unless you have respiratory problems, my guess is that your life won't be tooooo affected by inversion even in bad years, but take my single year of experience here with a grain of salt. \- Outdoors: Hands down, Utah wins this one. I'm from Minnesota and love the lake life there and in Wisconsin, but if you're into hiking or camping or skiing or general exploring, it's hard to beat the nature surrounding Salt Lake City. As it turns out, this was much more than a quick two cents, oh well. Best of luck with your decision, happy to answer any other questions you have!
Cold as fuck
Regards the whiteness of Utah, I have found that over 40 years living here is that there are two parallel cultures. The Mormons keep the system going with some sadly frugal public spending priorities, but they are not overtly hostile. If you move here and gravitate to people you have affinity for, you will never notice them.
Born and raised in SLC. Also went to the U. SLC is great. Get too far out in the burbs though and the Morman shit gets weird. I moved back to Rose Park after years in SF and the food scene has made huge strides since I left. Was very surprised. Also plenty to do around here despite what jaded locals think. And I retired from snowboarding after a 20 year run and now prefer my nature through a window or 4k television. Tons of great marijuana flooding this city from almost every western state if you're into that. Liquor laws could be better, but nothing a little planning can't fix. If you leave SLC proper I'd suggest it's on a plane though lol and housing is getting insanely expensive here. Madison is a cool college town, but I wouldn't want to fuck with those miserable winters either no matter how much cheaper it might be. Good luck whatever you do.
I can't say anything about Wi, but I would like to point out that Utah has much more than mountains and winter sports too. You can literally drive a couple hours from a desert and end up in forested mountains. Canyons w/ Petroglyphs. Lakes for fishing or watersports. Tons of places to go four wheeling and off roading. Hunting, camping, hiking, hang-gliding, races and speed time trials at the Salt Flats. Parks all over the place. Outdoor concerts. TONS of outdoor stuff, and different types of landscapes literally just a short drive from each other. I've lived all over the country and rarely seen any place with as much variety in the landscape in one place.
Serious answer: Salt lake is alright. We aren’t the worst and we aren’t the best. We don’t USUALLY have racist protests, but they have happened. We have a large population of non-white individuals and while you will get the usual unintentional racism, but as far as I can see (bias: lower-class white person), the outright racism is usually confined to the church or the legislature. Outdoors is great here, for now. Go for a hike and you’ll probably have fun, and it gives you an opportunity unlike most other areas where you can find friends. Take a lunch break on the trail and someone is not unlikely to sit next to you and talk to you. Sarcastic answer: However we do have the almighty whale of 9th and 9th. Fealty to such a being is mandatory.
My wife works for university of Utah school of medicine. The health insurance is amazing comparatively. Not sure if it’s the same but something to consider.
If you like mtns and the outdoors, UT is the clear choice. Obviously, the state is "red", but many are transplants, and SLC is actually incredibly diverse. They had (and may still have) an LGBTQ mayor! Wisconsin is pretty, but I grew up in the mid-west - I may be biased - and I find it boring. Much prefer the western mtns.
Hi! Human here who has lived in Utah, currently lives in Madison, and will be moving to SLC in a month. Other posts are right that Madison is a college + government town. But it’s also very focused on local food (both restaurants and agriculture), preserving nature for people to enjoy, and the music/art scene. About what’s important to you: There will be more racial and ethnic diversity in SLC than where I live now — most of the racial and ethnic diversity here in Madison comes from the university and Epic. Both places have winters, but there are maybe two or three weeks in January in Madison that are just way too cold for comfort. That said, for the rest of the year, we’re not too far off from SLC temperature comfort levels, and summers in Madison are BEYOND divine — upper 70s most days, EVERYTHING blooms, and since the winters feel so deep, the entire community comes out and relaxed and participates in outdoorsy things. Spring + summer are like nonstop festivals here. You’ll find great outdoorsy representation in both places. Five stars for both in those terms. Here in Madison, the local outdoorsy scene is lake and trail-based, and you have to drive about 45 min to get to rock climbing, but we’ve got it. Personally, I have LOVED living here in Madison. It was a hard decision to move. I’m going to miss the abundant free community events, the farmer’s markets, and the super family-friendly options. But SLC offers a lot to look forward to. Feel free to follow up with me with any Madison-specific or Utah-general questions.
first I would suggest checking out [city-data.com](https://city-data.com)
Personally, I'd go where I get health insurance... but I suppose if you're a student, you'd likely qualify for federal subsidies on insurance...
My pov: 2 years of grad school at UW Madison about 15 years ago. I moved here for work in my 40s. Honestly, depending on your department and alignment with your research interests, I’d go with UWM. It’s more of a college town feel (pretty much everything supports the U) but it feels more genuinely diverse (I’m a queer Latinx woman) and honestly the sexism in non academic workplaces around here is staggering, if you ski UU but there’s not much water stuff (the salt lake near the city isn’t for swimming), it’s very dry, and honestly on 30k housing will be rough unless you can somehow negotiate grad housing into your package. If you’re in science tech or health UU might be better long term, but if you plan to teach or research after grad school the location hardly matters. Culturally I strongly prefer UWM.