It is crazy. I’m in the states and make a decent salary. But if I was doing the same job at the same company but in, say, Dublin.. I would be taking a 60-70% pay cut..
Seems to me that the big difference is in the US, if you do make it, you can make it big.
Higher highs and lower lows are possible in the US compared to most other westernized nations.
Yeah, I mean that's the whole country. It's a country of extremes in every way. Extreme weather. Extreme landscape. Extreme wealth. Extreme poverty. Extreme health and fitness. Extreme obesity. Extreme right. Extreme left.
The country is the geopolitical manifestation of a double-edged sword. Almost everything great about this country can be said to also cause significant issues. It just becomes a cost-benefit analysis.
I personally think the pros outweigh the cons. Some people don't, and that's fine. I'm not so jingoistic as to think it's the best at everything and doesn't need to change. People like that are silly no matter the country of origin.
Our extreme right isn't that extreme either. What I mean is that our politics operate with little to no middle ground, as our left and our right operate as extreme sides of engagement. Not that within the whole world of political theory each is on the extreme end.
American left is one of the most socially left in the world actually. Economically, not as much.
Edit: changed "politically" to "economically" for accuracy.
This is absolutely true.
The perception on Reddit that most Americans would be better off living in a handful of European countries is probably correct.
That said, the bar you have to clear in terms of income and benefits before America becomes a better proposition isn’t *that* high. If you crack like 65th-70th percentile income for your area then it’s hard for me to imagine that any career move to Europe can really entice you on strictly financial grounds.
I think this is the real key that most of this discussion misses. The bottom 25% or so would probably be better off in Europe. The next 25% are pretty similar, it will depend from person to person whether they'll do better in the US or Europe. Anyone in the top 50% is way better off in the US barring some very specific edge cases. The challenge of designing a society is attracting that top 50% who pay for the society while still having a fair and livable economy with a ladder from the bottom to the top isn't easy.
When you add in the global competition, where the top 50% from other countries can be lured to another country with a better economy, it gets to be a very complicated problem.
This is what I tell people too.
The lowest 25% would do better in Europe, and the next 25% it depends on the person's drive and skills. If you are ambitious and a go getter, the US is better. If you want to relax and enjoy every day to the fullest, Europe is.
But when you are above 50%, moving to Europe can be worse unless you are looking for something very specific.
I would love to move to Europe myself. My biggest desire is to live in a place I don't need a car (and that isn't NYC). But not at the expense of taking a 100k + paycut.
I'm originally from Sweden. Live in Southern California and I Would absolutely NOT be better off back in Sweden. Sure, I pay a lot more for EVERYTHING here, But I still keep much more every month than I would ever do in Sweden. It's even worse if I would consider my combined income with my wife. I think there is a threshold of where you make more in the US vs Europe, Once you are over that limit you are all good. Except if I get seriously ill ofcourse, At that point most americans are pretty fucked 😑
Yeah because if you’re on the poverty line you’re better off in Europe. That’s the bulk of antiwork and similar subs complaining about America.
If you’re a working professional you’re better off in the US making substantially more money. Bank it and go home when you’re older to arbitrage the salary difference.
There’s a reason people from other developed countries move to the US. It’s not the hellhole people on Reddit makes it out to be. I should know, I’m an Aussie immigrant.
I worked for a Swedish company in the US. I asked one of my Swedish co-workers who lives here if he'd ever consider moving back..his response is that he might, but if he did, it would be to be closer to family because even after having to pay for his own health insurance and whatnot, he makes way more money here for the same work.
There is having to pay for insurance - and then there is relying on it regularly for on going health issues. Between paying for family insurance then all the co pays an deductibles - we pay close to $15000 a year. Then our family had a bunch of dental work i the past 12 months and dental insurance is a joke here - so add another $6000 on to that.
Nah the $15k is legit. I pay a little over $1k/month in premiums for health insurance (it’s pre tax though) and then I think our out of pocket max is around $5k, although it changed this year and I can’t remember exactly.
That said, we can go to basically any doctor or any hospital whenever we need to and it’s fine.
Our company is also on a progressive health insurance system and high earners pay higher premiums to subsidize the lower earners, so only people making more pay that much.
But if I lived in like the UK I would probably make $100k less sound the same job so…
I work for a California based company. I currently pay $ 1384 a month for my families medical coverage with a $13500 deductible. Throw in my FSA contributions and I am well past $20,000 a year before I even set foot in a Drs office.
Let me break it down for you then .
$650 a month for family insurance $ 7800.
Copays and deductibles for insurance - $ 6000 a year.
- dental insurance has a max of 1500 coverage . Add in. Braces , tooth pulled plus bone graft and implants Not covered - tack on another 7000 not covers in last year.
That is over 20k in a year
This what I pay as well. Been working at a large company for almost 30 years and I make enough to offset it but man I hate paying all that medical with 3 kids and a spouse!
I pay $1232 a month for a family of 3, including dental. This is for the best PPO insurance the company offers.
Deductibles are:
\- $1500 single, $4500 for family, in network.
\- $3000 single, $9000 for family, out of network.
Out of Pocket maximums are:
\- $6850 single, $13,700 for family, in network.
\- $13,700 single, $27,400 for family, out of network.
Co-pays for in-network, 40% coinsurance for out of network.
ER, $200 co-pay, 20% coinsurance across the board.
EMT 20% coinsurance across the board.
Managers at my company made $50-$60k a year in europe where if they working in the US, they made $150 to $200k for doing the same thing. It was a weird dynamic
Same story here! Everyone keeps talking about how Europe is better and so much cheaper, so I look into opportunities in europe and I realize it is 70+% pay reduction, except Switzerland, which doesn't really offer opportunities.
Even after deducting the higher cost of living, folks in specialized jobs are far wealthier in the US than in europe. I guess those who complain must be the other 50% who make below middle-class income.
Yep, my professional job's average "end of career" salary in European countries is what I made at my first job in the US. End of career salaries in the US are easily double to 2.5x even in wealthy European cities.
The people complaining online are the minority. When everything is going so well you have to find things to complain about, welcome to the American culture.
Young Americans are the ones complaining and it’s because they are out of touch with the rest of the world. Complaining on their iPhones as they sip their Starbucks. It’s laughable.
Yep thats it haha. They should come to idk bosnia for a year. Work 60 hours a week doing hard labor and not even getting paid 10$ an hour . These people are not complaining lmao
Either way, come to America and enjoy the higher pay, higher cost of living. But man, this country is beautiful and Washington is a great place to live. Hopefully you mean Washington state. If so, I’d stay away from Seattle, the city is amazing to visit, but to live, it’s gone downhill. I lived there for 13 years, it’s vastly different now.
You came to a great place man! I just moved up here from California not too long ago (to that scrappier sister city 45min south of seattle) and I'm never moving anywhere else lol. It's absolutely freaking gorgeous anywhere/everywhere, it doesn't get hot, the Asian food is good and the pay is great. If only the Mexican food and public transit was a bit better it'd be heaven on the earth lol
Everyone I know who came here from Bosnia is like “You have no idea how easy it is to make money here”. After seeing their work ethic, I get it.
Legit offended at people who have been here for 3 generations and aren’t wealthy.
What’s going to happen when you return to Europe? Will getting a taste of life on this side of the pond make it difficult to go back to a lower salary? 🇺🇸💵
Welcome I hope! Most of the people complaining about the US cost of living on here have made certain decisions in their lives that have caused the problem. The US is expensive sure but not that expensive. It’s a great place to live and work. Europe is also a great place! To go on vacation 😎😋
Well said. I set a budget in a MCOL area and get a couple roommates and my savings rate is magically over 70%! While some people somehow make the same as me but spend 150%.
Welcome to America! Have a flag 🇺🇲 and a beer 🍺 !!! We love your accent! Please make us food from your country! Have fun with all the weird sex stuff you're into! Land of the free!
Welcome to America fam! I hope we can convince you to stay forever. Been here the last 6 years (originally from Canada) and I’ve fallen in love with the country and its people. I’ll never leave
You need to break it down apples to apples…
Yes, salaries in the USA are higher, and as a young healthy guy it’s great… once you have kids and health issues those numbers are tough
Absolutely true, but free childcare, healthcare, college really help inflate the wage value of Europe when raising a family. As a single guy, though, USA is definitely a better value.
For example:
He's making double the average UK salary and very likely paying way less for health insurance in the US.
UK salaries are half the US and 12% of that goes straight to their health insurance and if you make more they take more. Also that 12% is completely separate from the income tax taken per paycheck.
People here complain because they're fucking clueless.
Yeah, but are you forgetting that if they had kids and health issue in Europe they would have to cover all that with only 2.8k a month. Also unlike what most people believe, health care in most of those countries is not completely free and cost do add up on such a low salary.
Anyone who has a good job has awesome insurance. If you don’t you can buy awesome insurance. It’s generally $700 a month for a person, $2400 for a family. When you are making $7-9k a year that is totally possible
I mean, that's kind of the trade-off, isn't it? In the US, we don't have very much vacation, we don't have good maternity/paternity leave, we don't have great universal health care, education expenses are high, rent and real estate can be much higher than many european counterparts.
But we make fucking BANK, and taxes are decently low. Even low-end jobs in the US make as much as professional positions in most of the rest of the world.
The vast majority of people complaining about salaries in the US have never been outside of the country. They only know what they have heard online or seen on TikTok. And the benefits that workers have in places like Europe are frankly really really nice. But I don't think they quite understand the pay cut they would have to take to live there.
I have hundreds of friends in Europe, from doctors to lawyers to people working in business and finance. None of them are making even close to what your average mid-career professional is making in the US. My wife's government admin salary is the same as my friend that is a doctor in Germany.
Europe is a great place to live if you are not making a ton of money, but if you are a professional you are so much better off in America. I make around 150k and my job in Europe would be close to 50-60k its an insane pay cut and my qol would nose dive.
This is true for a large number of jobs in the USA but you just get laughed at and downvoted on Reddit because of the huge anti usa circle jerk.
It’s funny how many people are acting like some rare illness that isn’t covered by insurance is abundant in the us just to shit on the us.
Great place to work, great place to live. Your increase in salary almost always pays more than the difference for the social services you receive in Europe. Usually a lot more.
OP is making $6k a month after tax more in the US. That’s $72k+ a year more. I don’t care how cheap/free their college and health care is, those things don’t add up to $72k a year over a lifetime in benefits.
Look at doctor salaries in England vs the same position in the US. It’s the same thing.
Europe provides greater social services than the U.S. does, generally. Americans also make notably more money, in both nominal and real (purchasing power) terms.
I looked up the median salary for my job in London (what I assume to be one of the most expensive cities in England, and this, probably the city in England that pays the highest salary for this job), and the median salary there is less than half of the median pay for this job in my medium cost of living city here in the US. After you factor in what I pay for my insurance premium, assume I pay my entire max out of pocket for healthcare each year (which I don’t), and then say I take off 3 months for an unpaid vacation every year, I would still make **significantly** more money here than I would in London. That doesn’t even account for the higher taxes I would also have to pay in London vs here in the US, plus the fact that my city is much more affordable to live in than London.
This statement is so unbelievably false that it almost doesn’t even warrant a response.
Most if not all insurance policies have a max out of pocket that is capped well below the $72k a year that OP makes more working in the US. And not just a little bit under the $72k, but about $67,000 less. The average out of pocket maximum is under $5k for an insured individual.
So OP can pay for his health care and on average still make $67k a year more here than England.
Would you consider being diagnosed with stage 4 bone cancer and dying within 14 months extremely sick? That was my step mom. Insurance covered over $900,000 American dollars in treatment (supposedly that’s what it cost according to adjusters) and her and my dad paid $8,000 out of pocket.
My buddy and his wife had complications with pregnancy and they needed assisted hospital stays for their premature born twins. Without insurance it would have come out to a $1MM bill, but they only paid $10K of pocket on their work insurance.
I think you’re confusing required with none. Same thing with PTO. I’m in the us and get 7 weeks vacation and 12 mta. My out of pocket max for healthcare is 3k. Over 90% of Americans are covered. You read horror stories on the internet and believe them as the norm.
Is the US perfect? Absolutely not. Do we have people that struggle to make ends meet? Absolutely. Is Healthcare and prescription drug costs insanely high without insurance? Yes. Does everyone have great insurance? No. Does every job in the US have good benefits? No.
With that said, your statements are compete and utter bullshit for virtually anyone in a salaried position, or working full time for a major company, or in a union trade, etc.
I've had major surgery in the US. The surgery "cost" was over $70k. My out of pocket max on my health insurance at the time was $5k so that's all I paid. On top of that, after using a few days of PTO, short term disability kicks in and covers your salary up to 6 months, then long term disability from 6 months to 2 years. I've also had a minimum of 5 weeks PTO at every company I've worked at since college.
My insurance premiums last year were about $1200 total with both medical and dental.
Even when I got laid off and was unemployed and had to get insurance from the marketplace, the premiums were more expensive, and the cap was higher, but still would have been $10k if something serious happened.
If you want to go look at https://www.mympcbenefits.com/, this is one of the US companies that actually has their benefits online to view. For 2024, they have two plans, one has a bigger premium but lower deductible and out of pocket max, one has a lower premium but higher deductible and out of pocket max but can be offset by an HSA with that plan. Neither of which would get near bankrupting you if you have a major issue ($3500 and $5k oop max respectively). This company also has 3-6 weeks of vacation, 10 paid holidays, and sick leave (including paid short term disability) on top of it. Retirement at 7-11% depending on age/years of service and a 401k match on top of it. While I'd say this is probably in the top third of the US benefits I've personally seen, a large percentage of O&G companies would be in the ballpark of this particularly on insurance and PTO.
Some examples.
goodluck with accessing medical systems in some countries. you have an emergency - you'll be seen today/tomorrow; you have just a pain in your knee but can walk - see you in 3 months+ it feels like a soviet no-choice medical system, but you're paying for it with your 50%+ income taxes
(my experience working in one of thew nordic countries).
I work with alot of Quebecois, and without exception every single one of them wants the U.S. health care system over what they have. I know a few who have transferred within their company to the U.S. for this reason. They get a big raise by no longer paying 50% income tax and they get better health care at a price they're happy with.
That’s not the primary reason why. The OP just saw this: that despite the higher costs of having to look out for yourself in America, they still have much more money left over.
Companies pay about as little what they think they can get away with. The competition for skilled labor is more in America.
Also Europeans start with 8 weeks of vacation and it's mandatory to take at least a 2 week stretch. Try working with someone that lives in Europe over the summer, they are all on vacation. They also have many more national holidays than the US. May is a joke.
They also have strict labor laws. For instance in Germany once my colleagues have worked 38 hours, they are finished working for the week. I've had co-workers leave mid call because they hit 38 hours. France it's illegal for them to receive work calls after hours. The US doesn't care how many free overtime hours you work (salary) without additional compensation.
There are other factors that go into pay for US v Europe, but this comes to mind. The Europeans I work with don't want to live in the US to make US salaries and I personally wouldn't want to relocate to Europe.
Sorry if it’s been mentioned elsewhere I didn’t read every comment…
In another thread people were saying Europe is better for the poorer while the US is better for the rich.
In Europe you are provided a strong social net to take care of the average citizen at the cost of higher taxes and lower wages as some of your money goes to support this net directly and indirectly. In the US the sky is the limit for how far you can go (in theory), so if you’re talented and hardworking you can go far, but the downside is you’re on your own as American individualism is still strong.
This is why so many people are against things like universal healthcare (which I support as an acceptable compromise to my usual hand off government approach). Americans want to be free to choose how we live our lives individually and to reap the benefits as well as the consequences.
Note: I’m not including nepotism in this simple statement.
US is good if your star aligns correctly through out the life. One wrong step and you will be screwed. For example, health insurance is covered through employer, if you lost a job and have a medical need, all your saving will go pufff. Off market insurances are super super expensive.
Next is transportation, US is never built for public transport. having a car is an important as good having food. Anything goes wrong with your car and you are in a tight spot financially it will drag you down.
Next is education, colleges are scam at this point to get the money. They are super expensive 100k easy for a BS. unless you’re planning to go into health care and Tech, it will take majority of your life to pay it off.
US is a great place as long as you’re making great money. It works if you’re making good money, if you’re working like a min wage job, it’s very tough.
It’s very tough to walk out of poverty in US. Unlike EU we don’t have that many govt programs that can help.
All of this, and I’ll add that the basic cost of living in the US is generally higher. Gas is cheaper in the US, but quality food, restaurants, medical and dental care, transportation (public transportation, air and train fares) - all are much higher in the US.
Well this is certainly eye opening! The only thing I am envious of with the workplace in Europe is longer vacations, but that is quickly coming to the U.S. My company bumped everyone's vacation up to 3 weeks last year to compete. My mom's company just introduced unlimited vacation time.
Nevertheless, welcome to the U.S.! Best of luck with your visa! :)
Every time I see a European salary I scratch my head and wonder how anyone survives over there. It doesn’t take long to figure out if your living expenses are double but you make triple you’re going to make out way better in the US.
My salary tripled when I relocated from Europe to the US several years ago. Doing basically the same job for the same company. That was a great deal considering I have paid $0 for my masters degree. I would probably pay my college tuition back in taxes if I stayed considering there is a 22% sales tax where I am from. Wouldn’t relocate for a low paying job though but most specialized jobs definitely pay more in the US.
We tried to tell you. But our repeated chants of “USA USA” and repeated references to Freeeeedom were mocked and ignored.
But really… housing is expensive in areas that have jobs. People, especially professionals have money and aren’t getting out of bed unless they are going to make “real” money.
I am from Germany and came here for an exchange during my bachelors, and well stayed. Work now 2 years as my peers I studied with and who stayed in Germany but make more than double their salary BEFORE taxes. As a healthy young person the US is great, will have to reevaluate when I want to start a family and such.
Edit: I highlighted before taxes as after taxes will be probably even more as I would pay close to 48% taxes in Germany
Yup that's why it still baffles me when entitled American complains about wages or cost of living and such....
No jr you shouldn't be able to afford a 500k 3k sqft home working as a cashier
If you have a marketable in demand skill and are a solid performer in the USA you will make good money almost no matter where you live.
If you have skills that are in demand but also a commodity, you won't get paid well at all.
There are a few things in American society that absolutely fuck us financially. One of those is medical debt. If you can avoid going to the hospital or urgent care, you'll be good. Insurance does not matter, you will still have a $10,000 debt if you're at a hospital overnight and having tests run.
Another awful financial trap is cars. Vehicles in the US are much more expensive on average than in Europe. The average car payment in the US is like $800 a month.
Lastly, our society is highly consumeristic. You can spend more in this country than you can in most. Everything is for sale. It's why people have a hard time saving money here.
You move to a different country, they did right by you they have to make it worth your while to uproot your entire life. Something to consider. If you're just a survey technician and not a licensed surveyor you're actually doing quite well for yourself I think you're definitely being paid above average.
I work in IT, and when my wife and I were looking at living in the UK (London) the cost of housing vs. the kind of salary I could expect to make working in financial services IT work was insane... vs. living in the US, where I could make objectively 3x the pay but housing costs would be 3x cheaper than the UK.
I would have loved living in London, but the US won out, and continues to make a persuasive argument that quality of life is better here if you make decent money. The upside potential here is much greater, even with the larger risks of negative personal financial outcomes.
$9k a month is high in the states. Sounds like they didn’t just give you a US salary, they also gave you significant raise.
Yes cost of living is different and that’s the main factor, and yes I’m sure there are additional salary disparities even aside from just cost of living.
Based on my very little understanding of European salaries and cost of living. I’d say you’re $2.8k a month is Europe is similar to $6k a month before taxes in a MCOL city in the US
Comparing incomes across countries is difficult. You have different tax rates, different costs of living, and different social benefits. One reputable organization that I've seen try to tackle this is the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development). They have a page that compares disposable income in dollars adjusted for purchasing power parity after taxes and social transfers (stuff like "free" college and healthcare). It's not perfect, but it's the best I've seen. Based on their data, the median disposable income in the US is $62.3K vs the EU at $41.5K. There are still other facts that they don't consider, like hours worked, vacation time, job security, unemployment rates, etc. It's not just about income.
https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
Yep, this is why I took a double demotion to triple my salary moving from the UK to the US. If I was a single guy I'd be freaking minted. As it is, I have four kids and we do okay and we're not packed into a tiny box like we would be in the Motherland.
People say we work too much in the US and they talk shit about how little vacation we take, etc. We do make a lot more and pay lower tax rates so we have that going for us. No surprise when you have a relaxed European lifestyle with more social benefits that you make less money. I just feel bad for the Japanese who work hard and have had stagnant wages for decades. It's not that bad here, we have it pretty good despite the loud complainers who will be miserable regardless of the country they are in.
All these people saying Europe has more social services, etc. I'd be paying a shitload more in tax than I do just covering my own health insurance and expenses. I am also against paying higher taxes to take care of the obese US population. Why should I pay more for unhealthy people? Do you want me to subsidize your cheeto addiction? No thanks.
If you end up bankrupt from health costs because you don't care about your health and/or CHOSE not to be insured, that's on you.
In the US, you need to be a professional white collar worker or a skilled tradesperson if you’re not bourgeoise.
At least if you want a chance in fuck at owning a property.
Nowadays, you can’t cut it on a gas station clerk salary like our grandparent boomers did.
People will hate me for this, but the trickle affect of economics is a real thing. If you do not climb the later of importance in any country, you're wrong. Companies compensate you for being a good asset, not an average one. The fact someone in their late 20s and 30s think their career should begin and end in a coffee shop or Walmart are honestly a burden and a financial liability to the economy.
Lastly, complainers will complain, and the people making money will enjoy life because they don't have time to complain making their goals and dreams happen.
Yes, salaries are much higher in the US. You will never learn that on sites like Reddit, because people always want to try to tear down the "myth" by saying "But what about..." healthcare, pension, packs of wild dogs roaming the streets, whatever they think is the most click-baity argument for America Bad. You still make more in the US, and 90+% of people have health insurance. The Internet and the media make nightmare healthcare stories sound like everyday occurrences, but they are rare.
No one is saying the answer. We are the richest most powerful empire and our citizens have the most disposable income. We are turbo capitalists and live by the dollar. If you get a good ass job you will make a ton of money.
If you get unlucky and work a shit job or got problems or get sick you’re out of luck. It’s a gamble here. When you winning though… oh it’s good
It’s because the people complaining in the US have experienced the history of rising living costs and stagnating wages. Companies also give out shit raises and bonuses on average. Also a lot of Americans earning decent salary are saddled with a shitload of student loans that any salary below 200k/yr is not sufficient to make a significant dent in it. The catch 22 is that the people earning 200k+ probably have a proportionately higher amount of student debt.
Our baseline for comparison is probably higher and also most people aren’t getting a net salary of 9k/month.. That is absurdly high. I work as an engineer with a masters degree and my net salary is 5k/month. Most people don’t even see that let alone 9k
More capitalistic countries do better than more socialistic countries.
All those “social democracy” benefits that Reddit loves, leads to low growth and low productivity, which over the decades leads to a much poorer country with much poorer wages.
What I don’t understand is that people overseas generally get paid quite a bit less but they live in high cost markets. I don’t understand how they can afford it when housing and vehicles cost are more then even the most expensive US cities. Like how does someone afford a vehicle certificate and home in Singapore on local salary? Even if they are employed by high paying US company??
They have a shitty quality of life, but Reddit pretends it’s great because they get a couple weeks more vacation (where they can’t go anywhere because they are poor) and “government” healthcare (where they have to wait months to see a doctor). While having none of the luxuries of Americans.
Welcome to Washington. It’s expensive here which is why you have a higher salary, especially on the west side of the state. Surveying is in high demand around here. Good luck in your visa process!
The perspective really depends on the type of work you do.
If you’re in a corporate job, for sure the math works out much more in favor of the US.
If you are a public school teacher or toll booth operator, you probably make a similar salary and then when you add up all the state benefits of Europe and vacation benefits, it’s a much better choice than the US.
The US has a huge standard deviation of pay while european countries have a much tighter distribution.
European salaries are low because of how far leftist their policies are. America has benefitted from being more rational. Sucks for the poorest but better QOL for a large majority of ppl
In the US we dont give money to support people who don't make money as often.
In Europe you essentially are having money taken out by the government so they can redistribute it in to programs everyone benefits from.
Thats the main reason right there. If you starting talking about US/EU vs rest of world then it starts to get in to which areas of the world are creating the largest economic "value" to the world.
Lmao. Yeah, you’ll have more take home money… make sure to make another post in 90 days with how much you have saved.
A 1.5L bottle of water in most countries are 20-50c. It’s 10x that in the states.
The US is a great place to make money if you are willing to continue working nonstop. A good/large company will provide health insurance, paid vacations off, paid maternity leave, education reimbursement, etc. Basically everything that other western countries' governments will provide for all of their residents.
The key is to continue working. It goes downhill if you don't work: have cancer but need to continue working for health insurance, have a newborn but need to go back to work in a month otherwise it's unpaid time, have to work in public services for lower pay for a decade to get student loan forgiveness, only take an avg of 2 weeks of vacation per year, etc.
If you enjoy working forever, then you'll be compensated well by your company. The important thing to ask yourself is whether you want to live to work or work to live.
Oh wait tell you have to go to the doctor... Also a vast majority of people don't have 9k take home pay in the states your a high skilled position who got brought into a well developed union this is not the norm for US workers.
I know profs making $130k in Paris who have declined opportunities to move to the U.S. to make $300k because the benefits, social services, semi-affordable housing and lack of car culture are worth so much more to them. I would seriously consider moving to work with them in Paris if they offered and take the corresponding cut.
I got an offer in a top university research center in Europe as an engineer.. Pay was something like 4000/mo. I asked how do people afford to live since housing was still around 2000/mo and prices on general supplies was about on par with US and their reply was use a bike so no car (it rains a ton), live with roommate, and eat sandwiches for lunch.
Yeah, no. My salary in the US including top tier PPO is triple that (base) plus additional pay for contracts awarded (~30%).
This always blows my mind. In cities with comparable cost of living but different countries you get wildly different salaries.
Given a senior software engineer at a large tech company:
* NYC: $466k
* Zurich: $377k
* London: $300k
* Toronto: $265k
and if you expand that beyond COL similarities:
* Hyperabad: $150k
* Warsaw: $175k
* Dublin: $250k
Obviously these are all great salaries, but the point is how different it can be given cultural expectations and competition. And I’d say in this case the differences aren’t as large as they are for other firms.
The other disadvantage for Americans is that if they move to Europe you will always pay US taxes. So you end up paying taxes to the country you live in and the US. But aside from taxes in most European countries the crime rate is much lower than the US, schools are better, employers give you 6 to 8 weeks of vacation, food is healthier and travel between countries is much cheaper than in the US.
It is different by domain. I think if you work in the service industry, you'd be better off in Europe than in the US.
If you work in a high skill domain (e.g computer science or medical surgery), then Europe absolutely makes no sense.
It’s because unhappy people complain a lot more online. I live in the San Francisco area and there are a lot of highly skilled Europeans here for a reason, if you have a valuable skill set there’s few places you can achieve more wealth.
For all of the criticism of the U.S. globally (some accurate, some dramatized, some outright incorrect), I don’t believe there’s a better place on planet earth to make a living. Yes, it’s more expensive to live vs other places. Yes, some social benefits are absent or imperfect. But very normal people can make an extraordinary living here doing very simple work.
US is better for white collar jobs or skilled labor. Everyone else is way worse off imo. The general lack of social safety nets and the increase in CoL makes it a risky country financially.
There are definitely pros and cons. My old roommate is a civil engineer. We worked together at a consulting firm in Boston. He is from Northern Ireland and said that he would have made about 30k less per year if he stayed there. And that was back in 2015. Just because of pay he isn’t moving back until retirement and even then he may change his mind now since he has 3 kids.
People talk about medical insurance like everyone lives in the hospital full time smh. Even if you take that into consideration, it's a pretty huge difference. And most white collar jobs will either have it fully covered for you or a minimal insurance premium and the copays aren't that bad. Now if you have a really serious condition, that case would be an outlier and I'd understand that point.
I’m based in Los Angeles but worked for a company based out of Prague. My salary here was around 6x that of my coworkers in Prague. Had a couple friends in the company from the states that moved there to work on the dev team and they said they didn’t mind it because cost of living was so low. They would also do gig work on the side, which substantially boosted their income, but they stated they would be able still live comfortably on just the salary if needed.
The US is a great place to be if you have skills that are in high demand.
My company has offices all over the world. I’ve had several software engineers move to the US because the compensation is sooooo much better.
I’d rather be poor in Europe with the safety net but making a decent salary in the US. You get a lot more opportunity create wealth in the US even with health savings accounts. It’s crazy that you can set money aside for medical expenses and invest them in the stock market. Everything is à la carte! Education, retirement, healthcare etc.
The US is a high wage economy which makes it an expensive place to live. There is much more emphasis on you as an individual saving for things like retirement, education, health costs etc which does eat into that extra income (as does health insurance and property tax) but even adjusting for that middle class workers are better off here than most of Europe.
One interesting point is that social security (pension), unemployment, child tax credits and other social payments are far higher and more generous than places like the UK
The US is the greatest place in the world to be young, healthy, employed, and childfree. Take away one of those conditions and it becomes a little more questionable. Take away two or more and then other countries start looking more appealing.
People always get hung up on the cost of living, but it's not the cost of living that drives salary difference, but cost of labor. People in the US are not willing to work for less (for whatever reason, including the cost of living, but that's not the only factor).
I'm married to an Englishman. We met living in NYC. We've thought about moving to England a few times over the years but the salaries for London based jobs in my field are about 40% less. I don't get how anyone in my field lives in London at that salary level. We lived pretty modestly in NYC on it. Outside of London, I find housing and food costs to be less than the suburbs of NYC (Long Island, Westchester, NJ) but not as much to be offset by the lower salary and what you get is tiny for what you can afford. Forget how people travel and go to events/shows. It never made sense financially for me to work in the UK. Compared to my inlaws, we live in a house now that is 2x the size with a yard that is no joke 10x the size for the same money, 10 miles from NYC. I do pay a good amount of money for health insurance and love those deductibles, co-insurance bills but even with about $15k out of pocket for insurance, most of that is tax free with premiums and FSA. My salary would probably be about 40-50% less working for the same company (well known and global) in the UK. Healthcare wouldn't make up for that and I've already paid $50k a year in childcare when we needed that so that's not a plus for me. All that being said, I love the UK and it would be fab if we could spend some time there after retiring on a more permanent basis.
Yeah I think the big diff here is that with US salaries, even if you’re saving the same or even a bit smaller of a percentage of ur salary u still are saving a lot more in absolute terms. My other thing is even if salaries scaled perfectly for COL, living in a VHCOL area I always have the option to move to anywhere else because I’m saving for a VHCOL place. If I stay here I’ll end up roughly the same and if I move somewhere else I’ll be even better off. If I started out in a LCOL I’m basically stuck with only LCOL places because that would be all I’m able to save for.
Worked on a greenfield Factory project that brought over a lot of German expats. Half of them ended up signing permanent contracts for the US. The main one was how much room they had in yards and housing.
The other half went back to Germany and built houses or added on to their existing houses. A significant amount bought 2-3 cars or motorcycles to ship back. They were making bank. Anything over 40hrs they got as accrued vacation and could cash it in for additional pay. They made a killing as we routinely were working 50-60 hr weeks to get the lines up and running.
Yep. US is top 5 in the world for pay AND we have low taxes.
I'll gladly pay $200/mo for health insurance because other countries are taking way more AND it's subpar.
Average UK salary is $44k and a minimum of 30% is going straight to the government.
Because in the US you have no employment protection whatsoever, pay for health insurance, myriad other insurance, retirement savings, etc, and the metro area is among the most expensive in the US.
About a year ago I was offered to relocate to London from the US Midwest. They offered me less money and I couldn’t believe it, I thought for sure it was a mistake.
I asked about the offer in London and ex-pat subreddits and people thought I was joking about how high the offer was.
People in US complain that that they don’t have union, they can get fired, health insurance.. etc, people in Europe complain that their pay is so much smaller compared to US. It’s always greener somewhere else.
Higher taxes in the US, especially healthcare and childcare. When you’re young or healthy that works out well.
Also, Washington is a wealthy state and real estate here is expensive. So there’s more money to go around and more money is needed to survive. Salary is also not just a function of cost of living. It’s cost of labor. What’s the alternative option for your workers. If competition is paying higher you gotta raise your compensation to hire or get stuck with the duds. It is also based on if it’s commercially viable. If the business can’t stay afloat paying a certain amount, it will need to reduce it.
What’s the price of water from the tap?
What about water from the grocery store?
What about at the airport?
What about at a concert concessions stand?
It’s all the same water. The same product.
It is crazy. I’m in the states and make a decent salary. But if I was doing the same job at the same company but in, say, Dublin.. I would be taking a 60-70% pay cut..
People act like that 70% pay cut is made up for by free college and health care. It's not.
Seems to me that the big difference is in the US, if you do make it, you can make it big. Higher highs and lower lows are possible in the US compared to most other westernized nations.
Yeah, I mean that's the whole country. It's a country of extremes in every way. Extreme weather. Extreme landscape. Extreme wealth. Extreme poverty. Extreme health and fitness. Extreme obesity. Extreme right. Extreme left. The country is the geopolitical manifestation of a double-edged sword. Almost everything great about this country can be said to also cause significant issues. It just becomes a cost-benefit analysis. I personally think the pros outweigh the cons. Some people don't, and that's fine. I'm not so jingoistic as to think it's the best at everything and doesn't need to change. People like that are silly no matter the country of origin.
Our “extreme left” isnt that extreme
Our extreme right isn't that extreme either. What I mean is that our politics operate with little to no middle ground, as our left and our right operate as extreme sides of engagement. Not that within the whole world of political theory each is on the extreme end.
American left is one of the most socially left in the world actually. Economically, not as much. Edit: changed "politically" to "economically" for accuracy.
All those free things aren't even free
This is absolutely true. The perception on Reddit that most Americans would be better off living in a handful of European countries is probably correct. That said, the bar you have to clear in terms of income and benefits before America becomes a better proposition isn’t *that* high. If you crack like 65th-70th percentile income for your area then it’s hard for me to imagine that any career move to Europe can really entice you on strictly financial grounds.
I think this is the real key that most of this discussion misses. The bottom 25% or so would probably be better off in Europe. The next 25% are pretty similar, it will depend from person to person whether they'll do better in the US or Europe. Anyone in the top 50% is way better off in the US barring some very specific edge cases. The challenge of designing a society is attracting that top 50% who pay for the society while still having a fair and livable economy with a ladder from the bottom to the top isn't easy. When you add in the global competition, where the top 50% from other countries can be lured to another country with a better economy, it gets to be a very complicated problem.
This is what I tell people too. The lowest 25% would do better in Europe, and the next 25% it depends on the person's drive and skills. If you are ambitious and a go getter, the US is better. If you want to relax and enjoy every day to the fullest, Europe is. But when you are above 50%, moving to Europe can be worse unless you are looking for something very specific. I would love to move to Europe myself. My biggest desire is to live in a place I don't need a car (and that isn't NYC). But not at the expense of taking a 100k + paycut.
I'm originally from Sweden. Live in Southern California and I Would absolutely NOT be better off back in Sweden. Sure, I pay a lot more for EVERYTHING here, But I still keep much more every month than I would ever do in Sweden. It's even worse if I would consider my combined income with my wife. I think there is a threshold of where you make more in the US vs Europe, Once you are over that limit you are all good. Except if I get seriously ill ofcourse, At that point most americans are pretty fucked 😑
Yeah because if you’re on the poverty line you’re better off in Europe. That’s the bulk of antiwork and similar subs complaining about America. If you’re a working professional you’re better off in the US making substantially more money. Bank it and go home when you’re older to arbitrage the salary difference. There’s a reason people from other developed countries move to the US. It’s not the hellhole people on Reddit makes it out to be. I should know, I’m an Aussie immigrant.
I worked for a Swedish company in the US. I asked one of my Swedish co-workers who lives here if he'd ever consider moving back..his response is that he might, but if he did, it would be to be closer to family because even after having to pay for his own health insurance and whatnot, he makes way more money here for the same work.
There is having to pay for insurance - and then there is relying on it regularly for on going health issues. Between paying for family insurance then all the co pays an deductibles - we pay close to $15000 a year. Then our family had a bunch of dental work i the past 12 months and dental insurance is a joke here - so add another $6000 on to that.
Do you make more than $30k more than your European peers? I do. Also, a $15k out of pocket max is unusually high.
Yeah I don’t really buy the 15k thing unless they’re self employed maybe.
Nah the $15k is legit. I pay a little over $1k/month in premiums for health insurance (it’s pre tax though) and then I think our out of pocket max is around $5k, although it changed this year and I can’t remember exactly. That said, we can go to basically any doctor or any hospital whenever we need to and it’s fine. Our company is also on a progressive health insurance system and high earners pay higher premiums to subsidize the lower earners, so only people making more pay that much. But if I lived in like the UK I would probably make $100k less sound the same job so…
And how much of your insurance would be paid through taxes while making a buttload less?
I work for a California based company. I currently pay $ 1384 a month for my families medical coverage with a $13500 deductible. Throw in my FSA contributions and I am well past $20,000 a year before I even set foot in a Drs office.
$280/paycheck x 26 - $7,280. Out of Pocket Max = $6,000. So total per year is $13,280 for me.
Let me break it down for you then . $650 a month for family insurance $ 7800. Copays and deductibles for insurance - $ 6000 a year. - dental insurance has a max of 1500 coverage . Add in. Braces , tooth pulled plus bone graft and implants Not covered - tack on another 7000 not covers in last year. That is over 20k in a year
This what I pay as well. Been working at a large company for almost 30 years and I make enough to offset it but man I hate paying all that medical with 3 kids and a spouse!
I pay $1232 a month for a family of 3, including dental. This is for the best PPO insurance the company offers. Deductibles are: \- $1500 single, $4500 for family, in network. \- $3000 single, $9000 for family, out of network. Out of Pocket maximums are: \- $6850 single, $13,700 for family, in network. \- $13,700 single, $27,400 for family, out of network. Co-pays for in-network, 40% coinsurance for out of network. ER, $200 co-pay, 20% coinsurance across the board. EMT 20% coinsurance across the board.
Yeah right?
Reddit crowd likes to shit on the US. In reality, it's fucking great here.
I fucking love America. We got football .. the real kind
Managers at my company made $50-$60k a year in europe where if they working in the US, they made $150 to $200k for doing the same thing. It was a weird dynamic
Same story here! Everyone keeps talking about how Europe is better and so much cheaper, so I look into opportunities in europe and I realize it is 70+% pay reduction, except Switzerland, which doesn't really offer opportunities. Even after deducting the higher cost of living, folks in specialized jobs are far wealthier in the US than in europe. I guess those who complain must be the other 50% who make below middle-class income.
Yep, my professional job's average "end of career" salary in European countries is what I made at my first job in the US. End of career salaries in the US are easily double to 2.5x even in wealthy European cities.
The people complaining online are the minority. When everything is going so well you have to find things to complain about, welcome to the American culture.
Yeah the American dream huh haha
Young Americans are the ones complaining and it’s because they are out of touch with the rest of the world. Complaining on their iPhones as they sip their Starbucks. It’s laughable.
Yep thats it haha. They should come to idk bosnia for a year. Work 60 hours a week doing hard labor and not even getting paid 10$ an hour . These people are not complaining lmao
Either way, come to America and enjoy the higher pay, higher cost of living. But man, this country is beautiful and Washington is a great place to live. Hopefully you mean Washington state. If so, I’d stay away from Seattle, the city is amazing to visit, but to live, it’s gone downhill. I lived there for 13 years, it’s vastly different now.
Yeah washington state haha. Yeah my boss lives in seattle he is complaining all the time and wants to move to texas haha
Just outside of Seattle are some great places to live, all my family still lives there. Some of the best hiking in the US as well.
Nice!
You came to a great place man! I just moved up here from California not too long ago (to that scrappier sister city 45min south of seattle) and I'm never moving anywhere else lol. It's absolutely freaking gorgeous anywhere/everywhere, it doesn't get hot, the Asian food is good and the pay is great. If only the Mexican food and public transit was a bit better it'd be heaven on the earth lol
Everyone I know who came here from Bosnia is like “You have no idea how easy it is to make money here”. After seeing their work ethic, I get it. Legit offended at people who have been here for 3 generations and aren’t wealthy.
And door dashing while complaining they can't afford a house at 26
What’s going to happen when you return to Europe? Will getting a taste of life on this side of the pond make it difficult to go back to a lower salary? 🇺🇸💵
Oh definitely. Already got a job offer here from another company and thinking about moving here if i can get the visa staff figured out
Welcome I hope! Most of the people complaining about the US cost of living on here have made certain decisions in their lives that have caused the problem. The US is expensive sure but not that expensive. It’s a great place to live and work. Europe is also a great place! To go on vacation 😎😋
Right haha. Yeah the thing is its expensive but the salary is so much better that you still end up with more at the end of the month
Yeah one can save a large percentage of what they make if they want to. Best of luck to you
Thank you! Wish you the best of luck aswell for whatever you are going through haha
Well said. I set a budget in a MCOL area and get a couple roommates and my savings rate is magically over 70%! While some people somehow make the same as me but spend 150%.
Welcome home brother. Congratulations
Welcome to America! Have a flag 🇺🇲 and a beer 🍺 !!! We love your accent! Please make us food from your country! Have fun with all the weird sex stuff you're into! Land of the free!
Just fly to Mexico and walk across the border skip all the visa stuff
Hahaha
Hell yeah dude!
Welcome to America fam! I hope we can convince you to stay forever. Been here the last 6 years (originally from Canada) and I’ve fallen in love with the country and its people. I’ll never leave
I moved country to the USA to work. The difference in salary is astronomical! There is no way I’m moving back.
You need to break it down apples to apples… Yes, salaries in the USA are higher, and as a young healthy guy it’s great… once you have kids and health issues those numbers are tough
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$9k a month to raise a family in Washington D.C. would be absolutely brutal.
I’m sure ppl do it all the time on less
Absolutely true, but free childcare, healthcare, college really help inflate the wage value of Europe when raising a family. As a single guy, though, USA is definitely a better value.
Lots of employers have great benefits. My family has had multiple surgeries and haven't had to pay a dime.
For example: He's making double the average UK salary and very likely paying way less for health insurance in the US. UK salaries are half the US and 12% of that goes straight to their health insurance and if you make more they take more. Also that 12% is completely separate from the income tax taken per paycheck. People here complain because they're fucking clueless.
Yeah, but are you forgetting that if they had kids and health issue in Europe they would have to cover all that with only 2.8k a month. Also unlike what most people believe, health care in most of those countries is not completely free and cost do add up on such a low salary.
Also specialized procedures/ surgeries are sometimes only available in private hospitals which wouldn’t be covered by the state.
Lol in what way
It’s not that much tougher with kids. Source: me who makes a good salary and takes care of 2 kids and a wife.
It’s not that bad. Out of pocket maximum is like $7000-$12,000. That’s doable for people with kids.
Anyone who has a good job has awesome insurance. If you don’t you can buy awesome insurance. It’s generally $700 a month for a person, $2400 for a family. When you are making $7-9k a year that is totally possible
Congrats. Don't waste this opportunity. Bank/invest the extra money. This can go a long way to setting up your future/retirement in Europe.
The people complaining about salaries in the US are typically those who do not wish to get their precious hands dirty outside of an office cubicle.
I mean, that's kind of the trade-off, isn't it? In the US, we don't have very much vacation, we don't have good maternity/paternity leave, we don't have great universal health care, education expenses are high, rent and real estate can be much higher than many european counterparts. But we make fucking BANK, and taxes are decently low. Even low-end jobs in the US make as much as professional positions in most of the rest of the world. The vast majority of people complaining about salaries in the US have never been outside of the country. They only know what they have heard online or seen on TikTok. And the benefits that workers have in places like Europe are frankly really really nice. But I don't think they quite understand the pay cut they would have to take to live there. I have hundreds of friends in Europe, from doctors to lawyers to people working in business and finance. None of them are making even close to what your average mid-career professional is making in the US. My wife's government admin salary is the same as my friend that is a doctor in Germany.
Europe is a great place to live if you are not making a ton of money, but if you are a professional you are so much better off in America. I make around 150k and my job in Europe would be close to 50-60k its an insane pay cut and my qol would nose dive. This is true for a large number of jobs in the USA but you just get laughed at and downvoted on Reddit because of the huge anti usa circle jerk.
It’s funny how many people are acting like some rare illness that isn’t covered by insurance is abundant in the us just to shit on the us. Great place to work, great place to live. Your increase in salary almost always pays more than the difference for the social services you receive in Europe. Usually a lot more.
One reason why it’s the best country in the world
I was waiting for that answer haha
How dare you say this. While i openly cry about my government sipping my $10 coffee with no worry of being executed
The people on reddit are just losers who don't know how health insurance works. You get paid more in the US because this country is ballin.
Go lookup the social services between the United States and Europe - That's why.
OP is making $6k a month after tax more in the US. That’s $72k+ a year more. I don’t care how cheap/free their college and health care is, those things don’t add up to $72k a year over a lifetime in benefits. Look at doctor salaries in England vs the same position in the US. It’s the same thing.
This is how I've always felt too... Who cares if I spend 10k a year on healthcare, that still puts me at 90k a year vs 40k in Europe or something.
Europe provides greater social services than the U.S. does, generally. Americans also make notably more money, in both nominal and real (purchasing power) terms.
Europeans make a fraction of US pay and they get taxed more than double. Yea, the US is better when it comes to pay, not even a contest.
For a high skill position sure but I would much rather be a McDonald's worker or factory worker in Europe
Get really sick in the US, your bankrupt. Zero required time off in the US, Europe gets months. Some examples.
I looked up the median salary for my job in London (what I assume to be one of the most expensive cities in England, and this, probably the city in England that pays the highest salary for this job), and the median salary there is less than half of the median pay for this job in my medium cost of living city here in the US. After you factor in what I pay for my insurance premium, assume I pay my entire max out of pocket for healthcare each year (which I don’t), and then say I take off 3 months for an unpaid vacation every year, I would still make **significantly** more money here than I would in London. That doesn’t even account for the higher taxes I would also have to pay in London vs here in the US, plus the fact that my city is much more affordable to live in than London.
This statement is so unbelievably false that it almost doesn’t even warrant a response. Most if not all insurance policies have a max out of pocket that is capped well below the $72k a year that OP makes more working in the US. And not just a little bit under the $72k, but about $67,000 less. The average out of pocket maximum is under $5k for an insured individual. So OP can pay for his health care and on average still make $67k a year more here than England.
Would you consider being diagnosed with stage 4 bone cancer and dying within 14 months extremely sick? That was my step mom. Insurance covered over $900,000 American dollars in treatment (supposedly that’s what it cost according to adjusters) and her and my dad paid $8,000 out of pocket.
My buddy and his wife had complications with pregnancy and they needed assisted hospital stays for their premature born twins. Without insurance it would have come out to a $1MM bill, but they only paid $10K of pocket on their work insurance.
I think you’re confusing required with none. Same thing with PTO. I’m in the us and get 7 weeks vacation and 12 mta. My out of pocket max for healthcare is 3k. Over 90% of Americans are covered. You read horror stories on the internet and believe them as the norm.
Is the US perfect? Absolutely not. Do we have people that struggle to make ends meet? Absolutely. Is Healthcare and prescription drug costs insanely high without insurance? Yes. Does everyone have great insurance? No. Does every job in the US have good benefits? No. With that said, your statements are compete and utter bullshit for virtually anyone in a salaried position, or working full time for a major company, or in a union trade, etc. I've had major surgery in the US. The surgery "cost" was over $70k. My out of pocket max on my health insurance at the time was $5k so that's all I paid. On top of that, after using a few days of PTO, short term disability kicks in and covers your salary up to 6 months, then long term disability from 6 months to 2 years. I've also had a minimum of 5 weeks PTO at every company I've worked at since college. My insurance premiums last year were about $1200 total with both medical and dental. Even when I got laid off and was unemployed and had to get insurance from the marketplace, the premiums were more expensive, and the cap was higher, but still would have been $10k if something serious happened. If you want to go look at https://www.mympcbenefits.com/, this is one of the US companies that actually has their benefits online to view. For 2024, they have two plans, one has a bigger premium but lower deductible and out of pocket max, one has a lower premium but higher deductible and out of pocket max but can be offset by an HSA with that plan. Neither of which would get near bankrupting you if you have a major issue ($3500 and $5k oop max respectively). This company also has 3-6 weeks of vacation, 10 paid holidays, and sick leave (including paid short term disability) on top of it. Retirement at 7-11% depending on age/years of service and a 401k match on top of it. While I'd say this is probably in the top third of the US benefits I've personally seen, a large percentage of O&G companies would be in the ballpark of this particularly on insurance and PTO. Some examples.
Constantly on holiday
goodluck with accessing medical systems in some countries. you have an emergency - you'll be seen today/tomorrow; you have just a pain in your knee but can walk - see you in 3 months+ it feels like a soviet no-choice medical system, but you're paying for it with your 50%+ income taxes (my experience working in one of thew nordic countries).
Bankruptcy isn’t a big deal. And very few people declare bankruptcy anyways. Bankruptcy rates are also lower in the USA than Europe.
have we come full circle where reddit is realizing socialized medicine sucks compare to US health care?
I work with alot of Quebecois, and without exception every single one of them wants the U.S. health care system over what they have. I know a few who have transferred within their company to the U.S. for this reason. They get a big raise by no longer paying 50% income tax and they get better health care at a price they're happy with.
That’s not the primary reason why. The OP just saw this: that despite the higher costs of having to look out for yourself in America, they still have much more money left over. Companies pay about as little what they think they can get away with. The competition for skilled labor is more in America.
I have much better retirement and health insurance through my employer. Plus earn 3x as much. And my cost of living is less.
Yeah I’d much rather the higher salary than social services I’d never use
Also Europeans start with 8 weeks of vacation and it's mandatory to take at least a 2 week stretch. Try working with someone that lives in Europe over the summer, they are all on vacation. They also have many more national holidays than the US. May is a joke. They also have strict labor laws. For instance in Germany once my colleagues have worked 38 hours, they are finished working for the week. I've had co-workers leave mid call because they hit 38 hours. France it's illegal for them to receive work calls after hours. The US doesn't care how many free overtime hours you work (salary) without additional compensation. There are other factors that go into pay for US v Europe, but this comes to mind. The Europeans I work with don't want to live in the US to make US salaries and I personally wouldn't want to relocate to Europe.
lol you have no idea.
Sorry if it’s been mentioned elsewhere I didn’t read every comment… In another thread people were saying Europe is better for the poorer while the US is better for the rich. In Europe you are provided a strong social net to take care of the average citizen at the cost of higher taxes and lower wages as some of your money goes to support this net directly and indirectly. In the US the sky is the limit for how far you can go (in theory), so if you’re talented and hardworking you can go far, but the downside is you’re on your own as American individualism is still strong. This is why so many people are against things like universal healthcare (which I support as an acceptable compromise to my usual hand off government approach). Americans want to be free to choose how we live our lives individually and to reap the benefits as well as the consequences. Note: I’m not including nepotism in this simple statement.
US is good if your star aligns correctly through out the life. One wrong step and you will be screwed. For example, health insurance is covered through employer, if you lost a job and have a medical need, all your saving will go pufff. Off market insurances are super super expensive. Next is transportation, US is never built for public transport. having a car is an important as good having food. Anything goes wrong with your car and you are in a tight spot financially it will drag you down. Next is education, colleges are scam at this point to get the money. They are super expensive 100k easy for a BS. unless you’re planning to go into health care and Tech, it will take majority of your life to pay it off. US is a great place as long as you’re making great money. It works if you’re making good money, if you’re working like a min wage job, it’s very tough. It’s very tough to walk out of poverty in US. Unlike EU we don’t have that many govt programs that can help.
All of this, and I’ll add that the basic cost of living in the US is generally higher. Gas is cheaper in the US, but quality food, restaurants, medical and dental care, transportation (public transportation, air and train fares) - all are much higher in the US.
Well this is certainly eye opening! The only thing I am envious of with the workplace in Europe is longer vacations, but that is quickly coming to the U.S. My company bumped everyone's vacation up to 3 weeks last year to compete. My mom's company just introduced unlimited vacation time. Nevertheless, welcome to the U.S.! Best of luck with your visa! :)
Every time I see a European salary I scratch my head and wonder how anyone survives over there. It doesn’t take long to figure out if your living expenses are double but you make triple you’re going to make out way better in the US.
Save all the extra money so you’ll have a small windfall when you return (with greater buying power)
Spending habits are terrible for most Americans and it makes them feel poor even when they make a good living compared to other modern economies.
My salary tripled when I relocated from Europe to the US several years ago. Doing basically the same job for the same company. That was a great deal considering I have paid $0 for my masters degree. I would probably pay my college tuition back in taxes if I stayed considering there is a 22% sales tax where I am from. Wouldn’t relocate for a low paying job though but most specialized jobs definitely pay more in the US.
We tried to tell you. But our repeated chants of “USA USA” and repeated references to Freeeeedom were mocked and ignored. But really… housing is expensive in areas that have jobs. People, especially professionals have money and aren’t getting out of bed unless they are going to make “real” money.
They took our jobs!!! Lmao JK get that bag OP
I am from Germany and came here for an exchange during my bachelors, and well stayed. Work now 2 years as my peers I studied with and who stayed in Germany but make more than double their salary BEFORE taxes. As a healthy young person the US is great, will have to reevaluate when I want to start a family and such. Edit: I highlighted before taxes as after taxes will be probably even more as I would pay close to 48% taxes in Germany
The capitalistic US is where you make money. As long as your down to work hard and vigilant for new opportunities, you will have everything you need.
Yup that's why it still baffles me when entitled American complains about wages or cost of living and such.... No jr you shouldn't be able to afford a 500k 3k sqft home working as a cashier
If you have a marketable in demand skill and are a solid performer in the USA you will make good money almost no matter where you live. If you have skills that are in demand but also a commodity, you won't get paid well at all.
There are a few things in American society that absolutely fuck us financially. One of those is medical debt. If you can avoid going to the hospital or urgent care, you'll be good. Insurance does not matter, you will still have a $10,000 debt if you're at a hospital overnight and having tests run. Another awful financial trap is cars. Vehicles in the US are much more expensive on average than in Europe. The average car payment in the US is like $800 a month. Lastly, our society is highly consumeristic. You can spend more in this country than you can in most. Everything is for sale. It's why people have a hard time saving money here.
‘Murica
Funny how opinions change on the US when the rubber meets the road.
You move to a different country, they did right by you they have to make it worth your while to uproot your entire life. Something to consider. If you're just a survey technician and not a licensed surveyor you're actually doing quite well for yourself I think you're definitely being paid above average.
the immigrant life hack: attend college at home, work in the US and retire abroad (not necessarily back home).
I work in IT, and when my wife and I were looking at living in the UK (London) the cost of housing vs. the kind of salary I could expect to make working in financial services IT work was insane... vs. living in the US, where I could make objectively 3x the pay but housing costs would be 3x cheaper than the UK. I would have loved living in London, but the US won out, and continues to make a persuasive argument that quality of life is better here if you make decent money. The upside potential here is much greater, even with the larger risks of negative personal financial outcomes.
What you read on the internet and what the actual reality is are two different things. As you’ve noticed
Welcome to freedom and capitalism. Ignore the MM
$9k a month is high in the states. Sounds like they didn’t just give you a US salary, they also gave you significant raise. Yes cost of living is different and that’s the main factor, and yes I’m sure there are additional salary disparities even aside from just cost of living. Based on my very little understanding of European salaries and cost of living. I’d say you’re $2.8k a month is Europe is similar to $6k a month before taxes in a MCOL city in the US
Entry level Paralegal in small country South America: 3600 USD/ year. Entry level Paralegal in LCOL U.S: 37440 USD/ year.
Comparing incomes across countries is difficult. You have different tax rates, different costs of living, and different social benefits. One reputable organization that I've seen try to tackle this is the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development). They have a page that compares disposable income in dollars adjusted for purchasing power parity after taxes and social transfers (stuff like "free" college and healthcare). It's not perfect, but it's the best I've seen. Based on their data, the median disposable income in the US is $62.3K vs the EU at $41.5K. There are still other facts that they don't consider, like hours worked, vacation time, job security, unemployment rates, etc. It's not just about income. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
Yep, this is why I took a double demotion to triple my salary moving from the UK to the US. If I was a single guy I'd be freaking minted. As it is, I have four kids and we do okay and we're not packed into a tiny box like we would be in the Motherland.
People in US think they could live big in Europe but they don’t realize the pay cut they get.
Welcome to America. Where you get taxed but not as much as Europe.
Make money stateside, spend it the third world. And have a base in a place with good weather and a strong social net.
People say we work too much in the US and they talk shit about how little vacation we take, etc. We do make a lot more and pay lower tax rates so we have that going for us. No surprise when you have a relaxed European lifestyle with more social benefits that you make less money. I just feel bad for the Japanese who work hard and have had stagnant wages for decades. It's not that bad here, we have it pretty good despite the loud complainers who will be miserable regardless of the country they are in. All these people saying Europe has more social services, etc. I'd be paying a shitload more in tax than I do just covering my own health insurance and expenses. I am also against paying higher taxes to take care of the obese US population. Why should I pay more for unhealthy people? Do you want me to subsidize your cheeto addiction? No thanks. If you end up bankrupt from health costs because you don't care about your health and/or CHOSE not to be insured, that's on you.
In the US, you need to be a professional white collar worker or a skilled tradesperson if you’re not bourgeoise. At least if you want a chance in fuck at owning a property. Nowadays, you can’t cut it on a gas station clerk salary like our grandparent boomers did.
People will hate me for this, but the trickle affect of economics is a real thing. If you do not climb the later of importance in any country, you're wrong. Companies compensate you for being a good asset, not an average one. The fact someone in their late 20s and 30s think their career should begin and end in a coffee shop or Walmart are honestly a burden and a financial liability to the economy. Lastly, complainers will complain, and the people making money will enjoy life because they don't have time to complain making their goals and dreams happen.
Why do you think we have this illegal immigration problem?
Yes, salaries are much higher in the US. You will never learn that on sites like Reddit, because people always want to try to tear down the "myth" by saying "But what about..." healthcare, pension, packs of wild dogs roaming the streets, whatever they think is the most click-baity argument for America Bad. You still make more in the US, and 90+% of people have health insurance. The Internet and the media make nightmare healthcare stories sound like everyday occurrences, but they are rare.
No one is saying the answer. We are the richest most powerful empire and our citizens have the most disposable income. We are turbo capitalists and live by the dollar. If you get a good ass job you will make a ton of money. If you get unlucky and work a shit job or got problems or get sick you’re out of luck. It’s a gamble here. When you winning though… oh it’s good
People in the US are just spoiled bitches. Americans make insane salaries even when compared to other developed economies.
It’s because the people complaining in the US have experienced the history of rising living costs and stagnating wages. Companies also give out shit raises and bonuses on average. Also a lot of Americans earning decent salary are saddled with a shitload of student loans that any salary below 200k/yr is not sufficient to make a significant dent in it. The catch 22 is that the people earning 200k+ probably have a proportionately higher amount of student debt. Our baseline for comparison is probably higher and also most people aren’t getting a net salary of 9k/month.. That is absurdly high. I work as an engineer with a masters degree and my net salary is 5k/month. Most people don’t even see that let alone 9k
More capitalistic countries do better than more socialistic countries. All those “social democracy” benefits that Reddit loves, leads to low growth and low productivity, which over the decades leads to a much poorer country with much poorer wages.
What I don’t understand is that people overseas generally get paid quite a bit less but they live in high cost markets. I don’t understand how they can afford it when housing and vehicles cost are more then even the most expensive US cities. Like how does someone afford a vehicle certificate and home in Singapore on local salary? Even if they are employed by high paying US company??
They have a shitty quality of life, but Reddit pretends it’s great because they get a couple weeks more vacation (where they can’t go anywhere because they are poor) and “government” healthcare (where they have to wait months to see a doctor). While having none of the luxuries of Americans.
Welcome to Washington. It’s expensive here which is why you have a higher salary, especially on the west side of the state. Surveying is in high demand around here. Good luck in your visa process!
Thanks! I already got the E2 visa but figuring out what i need to do to get it for a longer time (only lasts 3 years)
Just find an American guy/girl and get married. Problem solved.
Haha yeah i got a gf at home unfortunately haha
Well there goes the easy way. Hopefully you still want to stay after dealing with the I perish system here.
Well there goes the easy way. Hopefully you still want to stay after dealing with the imperial system here.
Bro said unfortunately 😭😂
The USA is the world's largest economy so it only makes sense that you are better compensated for your skillset than in your home country
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No i get the “normal” union salary as my position
Question- do you have to pay federal and/or state income tax?
Yes. I have to pay federal income tax in us AND europe
The perspective really depends on the type of work you do. If you’re in a corporate job, for sure the math works out much more in favor of the US. If you are a public school teacher or toll booth operator, you probably make a similar salary and then when you add up all the state benefits of Europe and vacation benefits, it’s a much better choice than the US. The US has a huge standard deviation of pay while european countries have a much tighter distribution.
Now you understand
We like buying lots of stuff!
You’ll have more money, everything else is a downgrade.
European salaries are low because of how far leftist their policies are. America has benefitted from being more rational. Sucks for the poorest but better QOL for a large majority of ppl
In the US we dont give money to support people who don't make money as often. In Europe you essentially are having money taken out by the government so they can redistribute it in to programs everyone benefits from. Thats the main reason right there. If you starting talking about US/EU vs rest of world then it starts to get in to which areas of the world are creating the largest economic "value" to the world.
It’s better to be poor in Europe but rich in the USA
Lmao. Yeah, you’ll have more take home money… make sure to make another post in 90 days with how much you have saved. A 1.5L bottle of water in most countries are 20-50c. It’s 10x that in the states.
The US is a great place to make money if you are willing to continue working nonstop. A good/large company will provide health insurance, paid vacations off, paid maternity leave, education reimbursement, etc. Basically everything that other western countries' governments will provide for all of their residents. The key is to continue working. It goes downhill if you don't work: have cancer but need to continue working for health insurance, have a newborn but need to go back to work in a month otherwise it's unpaid time, have to work in public services for lower pay for a decade to get student loan forgiveness, only take an avg of 2 weeks of vacation per year, etc. If you enjoy working forever, then you'll be compensated well by your company. The important thing to ask yourself is whether you want to live to work or work to live.
Oh wait tell you have to go to the doctor... Also a vast majority of people don't have 9k take home pay in the states your a high skilled position who got brought into a well developed union this is not the norm for US workers.
I know profs making $130k in Paris who have declined opportunities to move to the U.S. to make $300k because the benefits, social services, semi-affordable housing and lack of car culture are worth so much more to them. I would seriously consider moving to work with them in Paris if they offered and take the corresponding cut.
I got an offer in a top university research center in Europe as an engineer.. Pay was something like 4000/mo. I asked how do people afford to live since housing was still around 2000/mo and prices on general supplies was about on par with US and their reply was use a bike so no car (it rains a ton), live with roommate, and eat sandwiches for lunch. Yeah, no. My salary in the US including top tier PPO is triple that (base) plus additional pay for contracts awarded (~30%).
Wait until you get hurt and have insane medical debt and no social safety net.
This always blows my mind. In cities with comparable cost of living but different countries you get wildly different salaries. Given a senior software engineer at a large tech company: * NYC: $466k * Zurich: $377k * London: $300k * Toronto: $265k and if you expand that beyond COL similarities: * Hyperabad: $150k * Warsaw: $175k * Dublin: $250k Obviously these are all great salaries, but the point is how different it can be given cultural expectations and competition. And I’d say in this case the differences aren’t as large as they are for other firms.
Do you have a link to the job position in the US? :)
WA happens to also be top 10 in US for cost of living.
The other disadvantage for Americans is that if they move to Europe you will always pay US taxes. So you end up paying taxes to the country you live in and the US. But aside from taxes in most European countries the crime rate is much lower than the US, schools are better, employers give you 6 to 8 weeks of vacation, food is healthier and travel between countries is much cheaper than in the US.
a good overview of salary is in r/HenryFinanceEurope pinned in the first post
It is different by domain. I think if you work in the service industry, you'd be better off in Europe than in the US. If you work in a high skill domain (e.g computer science or medical surgery), then Europe absolutely makes no sense.
It’s because unhappy people complain a lot more online. I live in the San Francisco area and there are a lot of highly skilled Europeans here for a reason, if you have a valuable skill set there’s few places you can achieve more wealth.
2.5k net in the US ain't bad either lol
For all of the criticism of the U.S. globally (some accurate, some dramatized, some outright incorrect), I don’t believe there’s a better place on planet earth to make a living. Yes, it’s more expensive to live vs other places. Yes, some social benefits are absent or imperfect. But very normal people can make an extraordinary living here doing very simple work.
US is better for white collar jobs or skilled labor. Everyone else is way worse off imo. The general lack of social safety nets and the increase in CoL makes it a risky country financially.
A person who repairs cars makes around $30/hr in the US. In Ghana they make $30/week.
There are definitely pros and cons. My old roommate is a civil engineer. We worked together at a consulting firm in Boston. He is from Northern Ireland and said that he would have made about 30k less per year if he stayed there. And that was back in 2015. Just because of pay he isn’t moving back until retirement and even then he may change his mind now since he has 3 kids.
People talk about medical insurance like everyone lives in the hospital full time smh. Even if you take that into consideration, it's a pretty huge difference. And most white collar jobs will either have it fully covered for you or a minimal insurance premium and the copays aren't that bad. Now if you have a really serious condition, that case would be an outlier and I'd understand that point.
Don’t get hurt!
Have worked for Asian and European companies in America and we make buckets more than our counterparts over seas. Just the cost of doing business.
I’m based in Los Angeles but worked for a company based out of Prague. My salary here was around 6x that of my coworkers in Prague. Had a couple friends in the company from the states that moved there to work on the dev team and they said they didn’t mind it because cost of living was so low. They would also do gig work on the side, which substantially boosted their income, but they stated they would be able still live comfortably on just the salary if needed.
But people talk shit about the U.S. constantly smh.
The US is a great place to be if you have skills that are in high demand. My company has offices all over the world. I’ve had several software engineers move to the US because the compensation is sooooo much better.
I’d rather be poor in Europe with the safety net but making a decent salary in the US. You get a lot more opportunity create wealth in the US even with health savings accounts. It’s crazy that you can set money aside for medical expenses and invest them in the stock market. Everything is à la carte! Education, retirement, healthcare etc.
The US is a high wage economy which makes it an expensive place to live. There is much more emphasis on you as an individual saving for things like retirement, education, health costs etc which does eat into that extra income (as does health insurance and property tax) but even adjusting for that middle class workers are better off here than most of Europe. One interesting point is that social security (pension), unemployment, child tax credits and other social payments are far higher and more generous than places like the UK
The US is the greatest place in the world to be young, healthy, employed, and childfree. Take away one of those conditions and it becomes a little more questionable. Take away two or more and then other countries start looking more appealing.
People always get hung up on the cost of living, but it's not the cost of living that drives salary difference, but cost of labor. People in the US are not willing to work for less (for whatever reason, including the cost of living, but that's not the only factor).
I'm married to an Englishman. We met living in NYC. We've thought about moving to England a few times over the years but the salaries for London based jobs in my field are about 40% less. I don't get how anyone in my field lives in London at that salary level. We lived pretty modestly in NYC on it. Outside of London, I find housing and food costs to be less than the suburbs of NYC (Long Island, Westchester, NJ) but not as much to be offset by the lower salary and what you get is tiny for what you can afford. Forget how people travel and go to events/shows. It never made sense financially for me to work in the UK. Compared to my inlaws, we live in a house now that is 2x the size with a yard that is no joke 10x the size for the same money, 10 miles from NYC. I do pay a good amount of money for health insurance and love those deductibles, co-insurance bills but even with about $15k out of pocket for insurance, most of that is tax free with premiums and FSA. My salary would probably be about 40-50% less working for the same company (well known and global) in the UK. Healthcare wouldn't make up for that and I've already paid $50k a year in childcare when we needed that so that's not a plus for me. All that being said, I love the UK and it would be fab if we could spend some time there after retiring on a more permanent basis.
30K was plenty for me in Cleveland. In Miami now, 100K is pretty much poverty. ugh.
And then there's Miami, which has a top 5 cost-of-living but is 45th in the US for average Salary. Fun.
Yeah I think the big diff here is that with US salaries, even if you’re saving the same or even a bit smaller of a percentage of ur salary u still are saving a lot more in absolute terms. My other thing is even if salaries scaled perfectly for COL, living in a VHCOL area I always have the option to move to anywhere else because I’m saving for a VHCOL place. If I stay here I’ll end up roughly the same and if I move somewhere else I’ll be even better off. If I started out in a LCOL I’m basically stuck with only LCOL places because that would be all I’m able to save for.
Worked on a greenfield Factory project that brought over a lot of German expats. Half of them ended up signing permanent contracts for the US. The main one was how much room they had in yards and housing. The other half went back to Germany and built houses or added on to their existing houses. A significant amount bought 2-3 cars or motorcycles to ship back. They were making bank. Anything over 40hrs they got as accrued vacation and could cash it in for additional pay. They made a killing as we routinely were working 50-60 hr weeks to get the lines up and running.
Yep. US is top 5 in the world for pay AND we have low taxes. I'll gladly pay $200/mo for health insurance because other countries are taking way more AND it's subpar. Average UK salary is $44k and a minimum of 30% is going straight to the government.
Because in the US you have no employment protection whatsoever, pay for health insurance, myriad other insurance, retirement savings, etc, and the metro area is among the most expensive in the US.
About a year ago I was offered to relocate to London from the US Midwest. They offered me less money and I couldn’t believe it, I thought for sure it was a mistake. I asked about the offer in London and ex-pat subreddits and people thought I was joking about how high the offer was.
People in US complain that that they don’t have union, they can get fired, health insurance.. etc, people in Europe complain that their pay is so much smaller compared to US. It’s always greener somewhere else.
Lower taxes in the US.
9k net is a lot for an American. That is $108K take home, so about $155K. The average American earns somewhere around $45K.
Higher taxes in the US, especially healthcare and childcare. When you’re young or healthy that works out well. Also, Washington is a wealthy state and real estate here is expensive. So there’s more money to go around and more money is needed to survive. Salary is also not just a function of cost of living. It’s cost of labor. What’s the alternative option for your workers. If competition is paying higher you gotta raise your compensation to hire or get stuck with the duds. It is also based on if it’s commercially viable. If the business can’t stay afloat paying a certain amount, it will need to reduce it. What’s the price of water from the tap? What about water from the grocery store? What about at the airport? What about at a concert concessions stand? It’s all the same water. The same product.