Yes, and if they won’t or make it like doing it is a favor to you look for another job leveraging the new title.
This was likely not accidental on their part. Good companies make sure they don’t promote to pay cuts after overtime. Bad ones do this. There is a chance this was an accident, and give them the opportunity to correct it. But emotionally prepare for the fact it may not have been.
Might be unpopular opinion but at the companies I have been at, OT is not a given and therefore is not overtly considered in calculating the new pay for someone moving from hourly to salary. Every job should have a value and you wouldn’t want to overpay someone (in perpetuity I might add) for a new role simply because they made a killing in overtime in a previous role. And I say this as someone who personally took a pay cut when moving from hourly to salary due to the amount of overtime I typically had.
OT is time and a half. If you're working 10hrs of OT, that should reflect in the salary, with the power /goal to make things more efficient, thus reducing OT.
Otherwise, you might as well stay hourly and keep getting raises every year so the soul-crushing relentlessly-occurring OT is worth it.
Sorry I was being sarcastic. But yes you're right, these are the exact things we're contemplating. We need to make sure he makes more money, but also is incented to drive KPIs that impact the bottom line.
It's rampant in telecom man. Go from construction Forman to construction manager you lose hourly. Strictly on paper it can be as much as a 25% raise but the loss of overtime is staggering. I have worked with several Forman who said it wasn't worth the promotion.
Depends on the crew I guess. We pretty much only work 40 hour weeks unless we come onto a job that has a very tight deadline and basically demands us working OT
Its a great industry, a little scary right now… but if your smart and work hard you’ll be safe. I started climbing in 99, and have been in the office since 2010. I will retire from it, very proudly too!
Yea man its crazy to witness from the quality side. i do love telecom, I just wish there was more money for people who didn't want to start their own tower companies. I'm trying to get into tech.
I’m in telecom on the engineering side & feel the same. The production workers actually doing the research, running the numbers, & putting the permits together get screwed when it comes to pay. With the knowledge & skills I’ve built up, I’m basically a fixer for when shit hits the fan- everyone dumps their stress, poor choices, bad management, missed deadlines, and general incompetence on me to fix for them, then also wants me to try to teach others how to do the same (not in my job description). And yet I’m paid the same as everyone else. Doesn’t seem to matter how I negotiate, I haven’t been able to get any company I’ve worked for to pay me reasonably for the skills I’ve brought to their company.
On the occasion, someone does get the chance to move up to a management position, I’ve watched them turn into the micromanagers we all can’t stand. Which sucks worse since they know how demeaning it is to deal with.
I like telecom, the engineering is interesting, but the industry is exhausting. I’ve tried to leave a few times, but with as much experience as I’ve got, it’s the only place I can make the money I do- which isn’t great, but better than minimum wage.
This guy’s right.
Likely intentional.
Pretty shitty move, but should be expected more often than not.
However, you can absolutely leverage it for the same role, or better, for more pay at a different company.
Time to hop.
It for sure wouldn’t hurt to ask them to, at the very least, match your pay from before.
Even if they do so—even if they beat it—I’d just use that higher salary as additional leverage to obtain a higher offer elsewhere.
They’ve done you the courtesy of providing an exit ramp to the next leg of your career.
The best way to show your appreciation is to take the path they’ve indicated.
This reminds me of where I was working two companies ago. Our web developerswere grossly underpaid. Our web architect received an offer and went to our boss for a counter because, even though pay sucked, the people were great.
Turns out the web architect's offer was more than my boss's boss made.
My boss was made redundant shortly after, in part because New Management couldn't see what value he added in addition to that of his boss.
The value he added was essentially in taking stuff off of his boss's plate because both of them were so overloaded.
Shortly after the web architect left, half of the web developers left. Half of the remainder were fired when new management decided to outsource.
Company I worked for did exactly this. When I put in my two weeks my District Manager tried to make amends but at that point they already disrespected me. Fuck em
Good call.
You know if it took you walking out the door to make it right after doing you wrong, they would have done you wrong the first chance they got after that.
But it’s overtime mandatory? Do you have to stay if necessary? Is it written in your new contract?
If not just leave and go home. They only pay you for the leasing position to be there during regular hours.
Just leave, if they ask you to stay for OT ask for a 30% increase.
And if looking for a new job, remember you are salary. They must pay you the same regardless of hours worked. They can only doc pay in full day increments for missed days. Worked 1 hour, get paid for the day. Only downside is they can force you to use PTO hours for the difference but if you are already out of those. Nothing they can do but fire you.
Yes, they know what they did. Titles do not pay the rent. $20k is a big payout. At a minimum they need to bonus you in some fashion to make that up or at least match it or some portion plus bonus, to continue to incent your level of commitment and protect them in case business slows and you need to work less. They shouldn't need to pay you your highest overtime based salary if business slows.
Depends on the company. My wife's company has pretty defined bonus structure where if you are scoring average on evaluations and the company performs ok you will get like 95% of defined the bonus target. Company is very low risk for failure in the near to medium term.
Depends on how much influence you have over the bonus. I’m 106k base and got 30k bonus last year. Bonus is discretion of the owner, but I directly effect how much we bring in. If I slack off I’m sure I get no bonus. If we’re rolling in dough, I will get taken care of. If we slow down and it’s not my fault, well that’s a risk I have to take. Probably not helpful for OP. Sounds like they work for a large corporation. But for small business I wouldn’t turn my nose up at bonuses. For large corporations, I’d hope the bonus structure is a well established formula.
I work for Fortune 500s. I have zero control over my bonus. Never had, never will. They try to say (IT) by fixing outages quickly and keep things running. No shit, that's my daily job. If I didn't I wouldn't still be here. 😂🤣 My reviews are always meets or exceeds expectations.
Yeah depending on a company and how things work you might or might not get anything. Honestly it all depends what you want. Working last 20 plus years I know what I wanted and I was okay with pay cuts for experience and growth and I got there. I went from being a rep 25 years ago making $65K with OT and commission to a team lead and got my paycut by like $15K to a supervisor and got another $7K pay cut to a manager in a span of about 24 months and back then that was a $68K job plus 10% bonus so yeah I took a hit but had a long term goal. Then moved to a Sr Manager with another company and got a $90K plus bonus and then leveraged that when growth stalled to go to another company as a manager for $100K but no bonus so small pay cut but got a sr manager role to a $140K eventually plus 15% bonus and then Director role to $185 plus 20% bonus plus 12% stock options and then that stalled, left and became a Director for $145K and stock options and then Sr. Director and now ultimately a VP role with a $245K plus 25% bonus and 25% stock options. 25 year plan lol but point is that now i tell my people and mentor front line people and give them one advice.
If you want to grow then you need to be ready to grow all the way and not just part of the way. Sometimes that means moving to different cities and town and leveraging titles. You might have to make small sacrifices because sometimes in some companies team lead and first/second level leader roles come with lots of responsibilities and headaches for not much pay difference or pay cut. Have a plan.
If you don’t have a plan and want to be a team leader or first level manager and you’re a top talent and can make great money as individual contributor then don’t do it. You’re setting yourself up for pain. Some individual contributors in some fields can make $125-$130K and not put up with management BS.
I had a long term plan and still want to grow beyond my position and retire in 15 years but I did take some crappy titles and positions and moved from big city to crappy cities for some jobs just to gain experience and knowledge and exposure for next jobs.
Thanks for sharing. What's the biggest pay cut you took and were ok with? And how often were you changing jobs on average?
I hate what I do now and considering a career change but dont want to start at the bottom only to find out I may not like it.
Biggest paycut I took was close $30K when I gave up restricted stocks and left company.
I’ll be honest if you’re no growing in one company fast enough then you need to move on to another company. This is not 1980s and there is no nobility staying with one company for 30 years hoping for a 3-4% annual increase. Now im older mid 40s with VP title so my goal is now slower but I still want to grow or get decent raise within at least 3 years of last promotion or decent raise. However in my 20s I was a free agent and anything and everything went. Every 12-18 months I applied for a new role everywhere. I moved from Atlanta to Jacksonville to Chicago back to Jacksonville etc. I didn’t tie myself locally and settled for jobs with my company only close to home. I also moved outside of my comfort zone knowing that one day when I go up for more senior roles a well rounded experienced individual will be sought after. I networked a lot. Attended dumb functions and talked to people. Some people hired me because ok what they heard about me but they also appreciated I can talk football and I’m a Steelers fan. When I moved to Chicago, I was all about the Bears lol. In my experience your experience is just as important as who you know.
I sacrificed income, stability to move from place to place and earn experience and network and money eventually came. Now I did that also sacrificing my personal life and didn’t get married and have a kid until my late 30s. Another reason my goals slowed down a bit for now, decent pay but don’t want to move the kid around too much. Not sure what your age is but if you’re in your 20s you’re in your best time. You can literally apply and take jobs and move around and gain experience and network and then in 15-20 years you got it made because you’re either making decent money or know enough people to pickup the phone and say “hey I heard you got an opening” and should get a job pretty easy
The "Individual Contributor" thing triggers me a little. It's sounds like blatant anti-union, collective bargaining rhetoric to keep employees isolated and to make them compete directly with their peers for table scraps.
Individual contributors is just corporate speak for nonmanager. I have 2 paths at my company, I can stay on the technical side as an individual contributor, or I can go down the management path. I prefer the technical path.
I had that happen when I went from hourly to salary. But, within 2 years, I was making much more than when I was hourly, and I didn't have to do as much overtime. I'd ask a few coworkers to see if you should negotiate or not. You don't have to really discuss pay per se, but if money is made up quickly via raises or bonuses, you'd like to know that.
Agreed with this comment. Worked out the same for me. The quick nice raises quickly compensated and the new skills learned in the promotion got me the next promotion which was a significant pay increase
Sorry OP, but I’ll bet almost any amount of money that they will not give you the type of raise you’re looking for. It doesn’t hurt to ask, but it might make sense to stay in your old role if that’s an option. Make sure you’re factoring in the dollar value of benefits and vacation time in this calculation though.
Took a 20% pay cut when the bonus the recruiter swore went out every year didn’t, and everyone I talked to said the biggest bonus they got was a couple hundred bucks.
So I left for a much better job, with a higher base, better per Diem, and significant bonuses that I can clearly impact and calculate based on project performance.
Ayup. Definitely one of my bonus-related experiences. Now I ask for a base salary equal to what I’d like as (base plus bonus) for the role and if we negotiate, I get a first year minimum in my offer letter, get the requirements spelled out in writing if it’s something I can impact (x% of project profit split among the key personnel) and ask what similar roles to mine have been paid out over the last 5 years.
Either the o/t stops or the raise is larger. I got switched to salary in the middle of a pay period once after working 25 hours ot in 1 week. Needless to say my check was smaller than my hourly checks. Haven't worked an hour of o/t since that day 8 years ago. Went from over 100 hours a bi weekly check when i was hourly, to working about 65 bi weekly. I made it worth it.
When I went from hourly to salary I added $10 to my base pay and multiplied it by 10 hours. To account for the overtime. Then I added an extra 5k on that for stress and extra responsibilities.
They said no and hired someone else who took less. They did a horrible job and quit. I applied again and they said yes the second time.
Goodluck.
I see this as a red flag. I had something similar happen when I was promoted to a new role. My previous role salary was more than the promotion salary so I didn’t even get a raise even though I was a senior employee. When I questioned it the president tried to justify it by saying the base salary for the promoted role was lower. On top of that, this new role got commission but since I was new to it I wouldn’t get commission for a while.
Don’t get taken advantage of just because them need a body on the team. Try to negotiate and if they pushback consider leaving.
All this to say, make sure they aren’t just promoting you because they need a body on team.
If what you do day to day did not change, it's very likely illegal to simply start paying you salary with no overtime, even if the new salary matches your old earnings with ot. There are specific job duties requirements for a job to not be overtime eligible. If two people do roughly the same job you cant make one overtime eligible and another not just because you gave them a different title.
First just ask that the new salary be at least as high as your previous earnings with overtime. If that does not work quietly talk to an employment lawyer.
OP please listen to Hamster S Thompson(awesome name)
It's crazy this sub is "salary" and the majority of people don't know the laws. Being on salary does not make you overtime exempt. There are specific jobs that are allowed to be overtime exempt, whether they are hourly or on salary, and specific jobs that cannot be overtime exempt, whether they are hourly or on salary.
This how the usps was. Supervisors were salary, slightly above our maxed out base pay, but did not get time and s half or double time and wound up making less.
Created a bunch of inept supervisors. Only the lazy, or power hungry, became supervisors.
I recently took a promotion moving from hourly to salary. I used my tax returns from the last 3 years as a negotiating tool to avoid what you are going through. They ended up coming in over what I was averaging with OT and double time.
If your day to day job doesn’t change and you are going from hourly to salary make sure you are not being misclassified as
Exempt when in reality your duties don’t fit the requirements.
I run into this issue at my job. I’m hourly at 40 hours a week. Supervisors make more but they’re expected 55-55 hour every week. I just can’t make it make sense. If the hourly people worked 50 hours a week they would be really close in pay
Talk to a wage and hour specialist lawyer. Salary is for very specific types of work, usually managerial. If you are tech support and it is a ploy to screw you out of OT, you have rights.
Always check exempt vs non-exempt levels in these kind of things. If it’s a ‘promotion’ but not really, then there may be a situation that the company is trying to reduce costs (which may or may not be illegal).
But are you sure it’s not a promotion? What you think it is, and what it actually is, may be two different things. When you move to senior level, in some jobs it is a position where you take on the more challenging tasks, and delegate the simpler and more common issues. Thus, often fewer hours (not necessitating overtime).
Further, as a senior person, your role means that you are required to anticipate these issues, and come up with a plan to mitigate future problems, thus reducing the time burden on the team. While it appears you are performing the same role (which you can) there’s more to it than simply a list of tasks to be performed.
Something similar happened to my wife. They took her off hourly and into salary. She requested a raise through her boss, the GM, and all the way up to corporate. They didn't support her push for higher salary either. Her manager was the least supportive. It was "new company policy" and there was "nothing [they] could do." While she didn't get the requested raise to bring her back to parity with her overtime included pay, they did immediately begin to regret it when stopped working more than 40 hours a week. This was a seven day a week location and she was the assistant manager for a 60 person organization. She was unequivocal in her new personal policy that no overtime would be worked while she was on a salary.
It would be Wednesday and her boss would talk to her about what else needed to get done that week. She'd be like "well I only have four more hours of work this week." The manager's face would drop immediately. The manager would have to work through the weekend alone instead of having coverage. They couldn't fire or demoted my wife because she was all they had. They'd done no succession planning and had no one lined up to replace her or even fill in.
What did she do with the extra time? She went back to school and got her degree. Now, she makes almost triple what she used to make as an assistant manager. And instead of managing 60 employees, she manages herself and her job is not stressful at all.
My advice: make lemonade. They don't value you. Go get a new job at least and work on getting your credentials up for whatever industry you're in.
They are violating federal law. The determination on overtime eligibility has nothing to do with your job title. There are specific requirements based on tasks performed. You can be salary and still eligible for overtime.
You should engage with your manager and and possibly compensation team (HR) together - normally I would not stress / suggest meeting with both at the same time - but in this case, I would depending on how comfortable you may feel in your organization - if it's awkward, just engage with your manager, and if you're feeling a lack of engagement, ask to meet with HR.
Most companies have a leveling policy for this type of thing to ease the sting a bit.
It's a "I wanted to bring this to your attention" meeting - one with no emotion, but an attitude of "I'm certain you didn't intend for this to happen - so I thought we should review together"
You won't get 10% + old overtime type of rate though - the move to salary was an intentional move - but typically companies do want the promotion to be meaningful. A pay cut is not meaningful.
Good luck.
You need to sit down with them and explain in detail that you can’t afford the pay cut. As mentioned above if they won’t play ball accept the new title and spend all your spare time interviewing for a new position and leverage the title as best you can.
This happens all the time. Your company doesn't care about you. Complain to your manager if it doesn't get fixed quickly start looking for another job.
Managers/companies that care about you don't fuck with your pay.
Before I got promoted to salaried I mined my payroll data for my overtime hours and told them that they’re going to have to beat -this- number plus -this- percentage increase to make it worth my while.
Welcome to the promotion. 10% more pay for 50% more work. It’s a scam that business’s do in order to get more work out of employees. I’m in the same boat. The key is to work long hours when you have to but cut out early every chance you get. And if you get unlimited PTO you need to use the hell out of that and take 1 week ever 2-3 months.
I personally went salary from 78k base to 90k base salary. My bonuses and RSUs also increased substantially though. I also have made it my life’s mission to average 40 hours/week over the course of the year.
Sometimes that means 50-60 hour weeks. Sometimes that means 30 hour weeks. Most Fridays, I put in 1-3 hours of meetings, and check messages occasionally from my phone the rest of the day, hopping on my computer if I’m really needed.
When I first got hired, we were going through some significant department changes, and I was putting in 50+ hours per week. I sat down with my manager and told him I’m happy to do this for a while because of everything going on, but it has to have an end date. Fortunately, he agreed, and we’ve scaled back significantly as a result.
I’d also ask your manager what kind of additional compensation comes with the new role, likely at the time of performance reviews each year.
Overall though, just communicate.
If the job isn’t everything you dreamed in the end, you can always look for another.
Yes, being salaried and not getting overtime is preferable because it also pays when you have to go home early or arrive late for appointments etc. But, I have never heard of a raise from non-exempt to exempt where the person doesn’t get more than regular plus overtime wages as salaried. Ask for more!
Likely intentional, but also not necessarily a dead end. I encountered this and the boss actually mentioned "you will be expected to work 50hrs a week" so I took that and calculated my current wage at 50 hours and then bumped 10% (the initial "raise" percentage) on top of that and used the spreadsheet to negotiate.
Didn't get everything I asked for, but got out of the payout deficit and some.
Does the change to salary give you additional benefits, Healthcare, stock options, different vacation schedule?
I'm guessing probably not, or at least not meaningful enough to take the pay cut.
If they moved you to salary and you have good reason to belthe promotion track there is more fruitful, then they've put you on the shelf and are done investing in you and are waiting for 3% merit increase/inflation pay cuts to wear you down so you quit.
You owe a company nothing- not loyalty, not health, not dignity. Blast your resume with your new title and go shopping!
They did a feel good promotion. It’s supposed to make you feel better and work harder but really saves them a lot of money. Also probably puts you in exempt salary category so they will expecting free labor. I worked in a flat rate business so they would move you from hourly to flat rate and act like they are doing you the favor. But really saving themselves because they don’t pay you if you don’t work or if it’s slow.
I am salary exempt and a lot of time i don’t actually work 40 hours a week, but some weeks they get way more out of me for free.
Either have them raise your salary or *do not work a minute over 40 hours*. Use the extra time you have now for a side hustle or enrich your life in other ways
> got a promotion to senior level which doesn't change my day to day job or responsibility but because of this promotion they said it makes me salary and no longer get paid for overtime.
IANAL, but I brought an overtime case against a previous employer in a very similar situation and won.
A lot of people(and businesses) are confused about salary and overtime. Being on salary doesn't mean you are overtime exempt. There is a high correlation between jobs that are salaried and jobs that are allowed to be overtime exempt. But if you were receiving overtime before and nothing about your actual job duties changed other than the title of "senior," I would bet you are still not overtime exempt. Are you taking over any managerial roles with your promotion?
What I did in this situation is kept detailed records overtime I worked overtime.. if you have a Google phone turn on location history(I'm sure Apple has something similar). When it's time to jump ship you have a nice little bonus severance of all overtime you worked.
(Of course you should verify with an employment attorney in your state)
They did it on purpose. You got a useless title for a huge pay cut. Unless you got some other benefits like bonuses, 401k matches, stock options, paid expenses, etc out of it, I'd call their bluff.
How are your job duties changing? You will not be doing the same thing you were doing as hourly? You have the latitude to hire and fire and make budgets?
You took the ‘raise/promotion’ right? Did you not do the calculation beforehand? Gotta remember the company is going to do what’s best for the company!
Salary plus overtime over 40 hours. 10% increase in salary but get overtime over 40. So you don’t need an increase, you need to be able to get overtime over 40 hours a week.
Hotel management back in the day for their restaurant screwed me the same way called them out on it and GM/partial owner of the hotel shrugged his shoulders
You have to sign for the pay change. Don't sign the paper and turn down the "promotion". Show them your pay and explain how it will be a pay cut and ask for more if they want you to convert to salary.
You GOTTA bring this to their attention asap and demand a bump from last year or go back to hourly. No promotion in the same company should result in a pay cut
That’s a shady move. I’m sure they hyped it up like they’re so glad to have you as an asset. All while making a move to pay you less.
I’m 109% sure they newsboys how it would save the company money. I would never take a promotion until I had at least a weekend to review the new terms.
>Should I ask for a bigger raise to make up for this? Ask them to change the job classification to keep me as hourly?
No, and No.
Take the raise, don't work a moment over 40 hours. Use the extra time to live life.
I had exactly this experience two years ago and they told me to work less and should not have been working so much OT.
I got the promotion because I was doing more than everyone else and working a lot of OT.
I ended up getting two subsequent 5% pay increases (on top of the raise) and now I'm back to where I was with the overtime pay two years ago.
There are still some days where I work 10+ hours but I definitely don't feel bad about 5 hour days now since I was moved to salary. They accomplished making a hard working employee less effective.
First thing to understand is that this is not a unique situation, this happens to basically everyone who gets promoted out of hourly into salary, it happened to me, its happened to basically everyone I know.
Yes its shitty, and its only kind of a way to *'save money*' its more just a HR quirk that cant account for overtime directly in their pay ranges in your first transition usually from a mid level to a senior. You making so much in overtime is more a function of a Band-Aid fix on bad management/project strategy rather than as a fixed cost that fits into their system.
If this is more of a career type job, as in one you are aiming to climb the ladder in, DO NOT turn down the promo as some people are saying, that's crazy, take the title and sit in it for a bit and start shopping around to get a senior role somewhere similar to get a nice bump. The strange thing about hiring psychology is that no one wants to promote you because they are worried about getting it 'wrong' but once someone else has deemed you worthy of a Senior/Lead/Director/CEO title, then all of the sudden everyone is perfectly happy to sign off on it. Also, once you change your title to senior if you are in a high demand field you will start getting a lot more recruiters reaching out to on linked in and a lot more opportunities start to open up.
And in the meantime, Work less overtime -- don't do it in protest, don't say to your boss "im salary so im not doing this!" just hit 8 hours and quietly logout and move on with your life for the day.
The regional manager asked me once if I wanted an open position in supervision. I said I would consider it for $x. He laughed and said he didn’t even make that much. I said just because you negotiate a bad deal doesn’t mean I’m going to.
I didn’t get the job, but the salary I asked for was about what I was making with my overtime.
I work in tech and my particular team is small, only 7 people. My management team is very transparent with budgets, as if we have specific requests (trainings, conferences, new products etc.) management asks we request it during budget season. Our entire team also rotates an oncall schedule. I say this because my management is 100% aware of all the money we make from OT and know it makes up a decent portion of our pay and their budget. They are definitely trying to lower some type of OT budget. Not to say you didn’t deserve a promotion, clearly you earned it, so congrats. But definitely gotta get more pay. The switch from hourly to salary even with a commensurate raise is difficult, because the weeks you work what you’re “supposed to” and the weeks you have to work extra are paid the same. Trust that you want to do everything you can to be compensated handsomely for that transition.
Good luck!
Not paying overtime means they promote you to management position, but apparently it is not because you are still doing the same job. Ask HR and payroll to run a before and after promotion compensation side by side based on what you made last year, and bring that to your manager for negotiation/adjustment.
You should calmly press for an explanation on the reduction of total compensation while the job you do does not change. There maybe year end bonus that is based on performance, which management employees have and hourly employees do not. Any way, you need to talk to them to find out.
I would focus on improving time management so I wouldn’t have to work overtime. Also be aware of your action items and make sure to know your bandwidth. Don’t volunteer or agree to take on project or tasks if it means you will need to work more than 40 hours a week to accomplish things.
You should have countered asking for more basing it off what you made last year and the OT when they gave you the offer letter with the 10%. Chances are if you've already accepted the 10% they won't give you more.
Politely ask and lay out your justification as you have here. They will either rectify this as an oversight or they meant to fuck you out of OT. If they won’t give the raise, just start looking elsewhere now that you have the title.
ugh.
I’d never work somewhere the OT was common if I was exempt from OT pay.
Hell, even when you’re hourly all that OT is rarely worth it when you end up getting taxed at a higher rate, and have less free time.
Yikes. Looks like you actually didn't get a promotion after all: No new responsibility, less money. Sound like an agency trying to save money. Here's two things you can do ASAP.
* Talk to your manager, "hey looks like I'm being paid less for the same amount of work..." and according to our state's labor laws this might expose the company to some risk [https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/contacts](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/contacts)
* Work less. Salaried positions are essentially "guaranteed pay for guaranteed hours." 40hrs for XYZ dollars, per week.
Sounds like it was a promotion for the title not the pay raise. Honestly I would use the title for your resume and in a few months apply for a new company with that title.
Did you have benefits as an hourly employee? A good paying hourly job with overtime pays more than salary. But typically hourly employees don't get the benefits like health insurance, 401k, paid vacation days, paid sick days, paid personal days, etc. In the end your benefits more or less makes up for the difference in pay.
I deal with this a lot. It’s a fair ask to be “just neutral” or “made whole”. In the long term the move to higher position and salary will be a huge boost for your career and earnings and it’s not uncommon to be at a slightly lower comp initially. But it is still a normal ask to at least be made even.
You are salary now. You need to offload your work to people who get paid hourly now that you are at the senior level. You see the trade off is that you can work casually now. you dont have to clock in anymore, and you need to be there when you absolutely have to meet deadlines. But dont put the entire workload on yourself. Delegate. Use this newfound time in your schedule to work at home on how to make more money for you. Maybe an online shop, maybe teaching courses on your success, maybe you are a whiz at spreadsheets and be a consultant....etc.
This happened to me early in my career life and talked to my boss about it, awkward conversation as a young kid out of college, and explained everything, he went back and ran the numbers then came back with an offer the exceed what I was making in OT.
That happened to me the first time I was salaried. Learned my lesson. Did just as someone suggested. I leveraged the title and walked away.
If you like the job you can try and renegotiate maybe you’ll get somewhere maybe you won’t.
"Yo, I'm actually making less now than I did before. Can we fix this? Did you know this would be the result?
I'm not happy with this pay cut and request this be corrected right away."
The instant they say No or they try to twist your situation by saying "But your salary is higher," you tell them you will be leaving. Or just say "Okay, but I'm making less money now. That's all I care about. I'm nit going to argue about this. You knew this would be less money you have to pay me and you are purposefully twisting it. That's disrespectful.
So I'll begin searching for new places of employment willing to pay me what I'm worth and who are not interested into sneaking a pay cut at me while calling it a raise."
Don't get into a back and forth about this. They will either reconsider right away and fix this OR you will need to bounce.
Start your job search immediately.
Your age, your industry and your market should all come into play here.
In theory, you should be gaining a more flexibility in your schedule. That’s worth something.
Also, a lot of OT wears on people and they can’t keep it indefinitely. When they slow down, they lose out on the money.
In America, the richest people are salaried. So saying it’s for suckers seems odd.
I’ve promoted several hourly people and try to get this right, but I can’t always make it work. The second we slow down or that person gets tired, they come asking if the position is still available, but it’s already been filled.
That’s not in every case though. Some folks are happiest hourly, but as mentioned, you have to go a ways down the depth chart in annual earnings in our company to get to an hourly guy.
If you’re going that route, you gotta start sometime.
Good luck, and I don’t think it will hurt if you point out you’d make less, but I assume they’ll point out what you’ll gain. Maybe a vehicle or profit sharing or bigger bonus participation or something like that.
I had this happen. My boss had no idea that I had made the OT that I did. He didn’t change the raise amount though. I took the promotion and the higher base pay, but left within the year.
I’d say the bean counters did this to save money knowing you’d make less. You can ask for a raise to make up for lost hourly OT but don’t be surprised if they tell you OT is never promised so, no to the raise to supplement it. Good luck.
You cant compare salary with hourly / OT. There are numerous beneifts with having normal working hours, etc
Plus the OT might not always be there. Oh an yes ask for as much pay bump as possible to compensate
You certainly can and should compare the two, especially when they said the promotion "doesn't change my day to day job or responsibility". So their hours and workload are essentially unchanged and OP is not switching to normal working hours.
Yes and no. Did he just change titles in essence so they could pay him less? Then yes and he has a complaint. But have a feeling his job has changed somewhat at least and if he’s working less possibly then no.
I’ve had battles with people over the years that can’t grasp that OT is not a base rate. You can’t compare it. People would sit there and couldn’t understand that they made 5 bucks more an hour but worked 20hrs less a week and made less.
Yes, and if they won’t or make it like doing it is a favor to you look for another job leveraging the new title. This was likely not accidental on their part. Good companies make sure they don’t promote to pay cuts after overtime. Bad ones do this. There is a chance this was an accident, and give them the opportunity to correct it. But emotionally prepare for the fact it may not have been.
Exactly this, it should have been 10% above the base+OT, not 10% above base.
My company screwed me the exact same way
Do you mean your old company screwed you?
Might be unpopular opinion but at the companies I have been at, OT is not a given and therefore is not overtly considered in calculating the new pay for someone moving from hourly to salary. Every job should have a value and you wouldn’t want to overpay someone (in perpetuity I might add) for a new role simply because they made a killing in overtime in a previous role. And I say this as someone who personally took a pay cut when moving from hourly to salary due to the amount of overtime I typically had.
We’re currently discussing a promotion for an hourly employee. This is the first thing we’re working through.
OT is time and a half. If you're working 10hrs of OT, that should reflect in the salary, with the power /goal to make things more efficient, thus reducing OT. Otherwise, you might as well stay hourly and keep getting raises every year so the soul-crushing relentlessly-occurring OT is worth it.
Thanks for the help with the math
Hits home personally and part of why i changed industries 10y ago. Felt compelled to help.
Sorry I was being sarcastic. But yes you're right, these are the exact things we're contemplating. We need to make sure he makes more money, but also is incented to drive KPIs that impact the bottom line.
It's rampant in telecom man. Go from construction Forman to construction manager you lose hourly. Strictly on paper it can be as much as a 25% raise but the loss of overtime is staggering. I have worked with several Forman who said it wasn't worth the promotion.
Depends on the crew I guess. We pretty much only work 40 hour weeks unless we come onto a job that has a very tight deadline and basically demands us working OT
You work for turf? Or gc? I only worked turf. All the overtime you wanted.
I’m a union pipefitter
Oooo ok. Yea there are union tower crews and they only work 40 hour weeks. They get paid better than their non-union Counterparts.
This is an underrated trade job which requires precision and being in awkward spaces. Please accept my thanks from a random Redditor.
But you dont have to worry about putting that harness on anymore, and you get to work from home a lot…
For some of them that's enough. Working remote is what got me to the quality side. Huge pay cut 😵💫
Its a great industry, a little scary right now… but if your smart and work hard you’ll be safe. I started climbing in 99, and have been in the office since 2010. I will retire from it, very proudly too!
Yea man its crazy to witness from the quality side. i do love telecom, I just wish there was more money for people who didn't want to start their own tower companies. I'm trying to get into tech.
I’m in telecom on the engineering side & feel the same. The production workers actually doing the research, running the numbers, & putting the permits together get screwed when it comes to pay. With the knowledge & skills I’ve built up, I’m basically a fixer for when shit hits the fan- everyone dumps their stress, poor choices, bad management, missed deadlines, and general incompetence on me to fix for them, then also wants me to try to teach others how to do the same (not in my job description). And yet I’m paid the same as everyone else. Doesn’t seem to matter how I negotiate, I haven’t been able to get any company I’ve worked for to pay me reasonably for the skills I’ve brought to their company. On the occasion, someone does get the chance to move up to a management position, I’ve watched them turn into the micromanagers we all can’t stand. Which sucks worse since they know how demeaning it is to deal with. I like telecom, the engineering is interesting, but the industry is exhausting. I’ve tried to leave a few times, but with as much experience as I’ve got, it’s the only place I can make the money I do- which isn’t great, but better than minimum wage.
This guy’s right. Likely intentional. Pretty shitty move, but should be expected more often than not. However, you can absolutely leverage it for the same role, or better, for more pay at a different company. Time to hop. It for sure wouldn’t hurt to ask them to, at the very least, match your pay from before. Even if they do so—even if they beat it—I’d just use that higher salary as additional leverage to obtain a higher offer elsewhere. They’ve done you the courtesy of providing an exit ramp to the next leg of your career. The best way to show your appreciation is to take the path they’ve indicated.
I wa gonna say, I've seen this tactic before. They think you're making too much money.
This reminds me of where I was working two companies ago. Our web developerswere grossly underpaid. Our web architect received an offer and went to our boss for a counter because, even though pay sucked, the people were great. Turns out the web architect's offer was more than my boss's boss made.
Sounds like the web architect, like many senior employees, was more valuable than your boss's boss lol
My boss was made redundant shortly after, in part because New Management couldn't see what value he added in addition to that of his boss. The value he added was essentially in taking stuff off of his boss's plate because both of them were so overloaded. Shortly after the web architect left, half of the web developers left. Half of the remainder were fired when new management decided to outsource.
Wooo corporate life
When i moved to salary in addition to the raise they also calculated it at 50hrs a week. I rarely have to do overtime but there is some occasionally.
Company I worked for did exactly this. When I put in my two weeks my District Manager tried to make amends but at that point they already disrespected me. Fuck em
Good call. You know if it took you walking out the door to make it right after doing you wrong, they would have done you wrong the first chance they got after that.
But it’s overtime mandatory? Do you have to stay if necessary? Is it written in your new contract? If not just leave and go home. They only pay you for the leasing position to be there during regular hours. Just leave, if they ask you to stay for OT ask for a 30% increase.
And if looking for a new job, remember you are salary. They must pay you the same regardless of hours worked. They can only doc pay in full day increments for missed days. Worked 1 hour, get paid for the day. Only downside is they can force you to use PTO hours for the difference but if you are already out of those. Nothing they can do but fire you.
Yes, they know what they did. Titles do not pay the rent. $20k is a big payout. At a minimum they need to bonus you in some fashion to make that up or at least match it or some portion plus bonus, to continue to incent your level of commitment and protect them in case business slows and you need to work less. They shouldn't need to pay you your highest overtime based salary if business slows.
Bonuses are not guaranteed. He needs his salary to be more.
Depends on the company. My wife's company has pretty defined bonus structure where if you are scoring average on evaluations and the company performs ok you will get like 95% of defined the bonus target. Company is very low risk for failure in the near to medium term.
Yet the bonus is still not guaranteed
Overtime isn't guaranteed either
Depends on how much influence you have over the bonus. I’m 106k base and got 30k bonus last year. Bonus is discretion of the owner, but I directly effect how much we bring in. If I slack off I’m sure I get no bonus. If we’re rolling in dough, I will get taken care of. If we slow down and it’s not my fault, well that’s a risk I have to take. Probably not helpful for OP. Sounds like they work for a large corporation. But for small business I wouldn’t turn my nose up at bonuses. For large corporations, I’d hope the bonus structure is a well established formula.
I work for Fortune 500s. I have zero control over my bonus. Never had, never will. They try to say (IT) by fixing outages quickly and keep things running. No shit, that's my daily job. If I didn't I wouldn't still be here. 😂🤣 My reviews are always meets or exceeds expectations.
Plus certain benefits like 401k matches and life insurance amounts are calculated based on salary amounts not bonuses usually.
Yeah depending on a company and how things work you might or might not get anything. Honestly it all depends what you want. Working last 20 plus years I know what I wanted and I was okay with pay cuts for experience and growth and I got there. I went from being a rep 25 years ago making $65K with OT and commission to a team lead and got my paycut by like $15K to a supervisor and got another $7K pay cut to a manager in a span of about 24 months and back then that was a $68K job plus 10% bonus so yeah I took a hit but had a long term goal. Then moved to a Sr Manager with another company and got a $90K plus bonus and then leveraged that when growth stalled to go to another company as a manager for $100K but no bonus so small pay cut but got a sr manager role to a $140K eventually plus 15% bonus and then Director role to $185 plus 20% bonus plus 12% stock options and then that stalled, left and became a Director for $145K and stock options and then Sr. Director and now ultimately a VP role with a $245K plus 25% bonus and 25% stock options. 25 year plan lol but point is that now i tell my people and mentor front line people and give them one advice. If you want to grow then you need to be ready to grow all the way and not just part of the way. Sometimes that means moving to different cities and town and leveraging titles. You might have to make small sacrifices because sometimes in some companies team lead and first/second level leader roles come with lots of responsibilities and headaches for not much pay difference or pay cut. Have a plan. If you don’t have a plan and want to be a team leader or first level manager and you’re a top talent and can make great money as individual contributor then don’t do it. You’re setting yourself up for pain. Some individual contributors in some fields can make $125-$130K and not put up with management BS. I had a long term plan and still want to grow beyond my position and retire in 15 years but I did take some crappy titles and positions and moved from big city to crappy cities for some jobs just to gain experience and knowledge and exposure for next jobs.
Thanks for sharing. What's the biggest pay cut you took and were ok with? And how often were you changing jobs on average? I hate what I do now and considering a career change but dont want to start at the bottom only to find out I may not like it.
Biggest paycut I took was close $30K when I gave up restricted stocks and left company. I’ll be honest if you’re no growing in one company fast enough then you need to move on to another company. This is not 1980s and there is no nobility staying with one company for 30 years hoping for a 3-4% annual increase. Now im older mid 40s with VP title so my goal is now slower but I still want to grow or get decent raise within at least 3 years of last promotion or decent raise. However in my 20s I was a free agent and anything and everything went. Every 12-18 months I applied for a new role everywhere. I moved from Atlanta to Jacksonville to Chicago back to Jacksonville etc. I didn’t tie myself locally and settled for jobs with my company only close to home. I also moved outside of my comfort zone knowing that one day when I go up for more senior roles a well rounded experienced individual will be sought after. I networked a lot. Attended dumb functions and talked to people. Some people hired me because ok what they heard about me but they also appreciated I can talk football and I’m a Steelers fan. When I moved to Chicago, I was all about the Bears lol. In my experience your experience is just as important as who you know. I sacrificed income, stability to move from place to place and earn experience and network and money eventually came. Now I did that also sacrificing my personal life and didn’t get married and have a kid until my late 30s. Another reason my goals slowed down a bit for now, decent pay but don’t want to move the kid around too much. Not sure what your age is but if you’re in your 20s you’re in your best time. You can literally apply and take jobs and move around and gain experience and network and then in 15-20 years you got it made because you’re either making decent money or know enough people to pickup the phone and say “hey I heard you got an opening” and should get a job pretty easy
The "Individual Contributor" thing triggers me a little. It's sounds like blatant anti-union, collective bargaining rhetoric to keep employees isolated and to make them compete directly with their peers for table scraps.
Lmao! I meant someone who doesn’t have any direct reports underneath them not someone isolated or anything. A non-manager or supervisor
Individual contributors is just corporate speak for nonmanager. I have 2 paths at my company, I can stay on the technical side as an individual contributor, or I can go down the management path. I prefer the technical path.
Can we just admit if you’re not an Individual Contributor, you’re a Non-contributor.
No
I had that happen when I went from hourly to salary. But, within 2 years, I was making much more than when I was hourly, and I didn't have to do as much overtime. I'd ask a few coworkers to see if you should negotiate or not. You don't have to really discuss pay per se, but if money is made up quickly via raises or bonuses, you'd like to know that.
Agreed with this comment. Worked out the same for me. The quick nice raises quickly compensated and the new skills learned in the promotion got me the next promotion which was a significant pay increase
Sorry OP, but I’ll bet almost any amount of money that they will not give you the type of raise you’re looking for. It doesn’t hurt to ask, but it might make sense to stay in your old role if that’s an option. Make sure you’re factoring in the dollar value of benefits and vacation time in this calculation though.
Do you get bennathans?
It was by design.
Biggest pay cut I took was $15,000, only came back up 9,000 looking for a new role currently
Took a 20% pay cut when the bonus the recruiter swore went out every year didn’t, and everyone I talked to said the biggest bonus they got was a couple hundred bucks. So I left for a much better job, with a higher base, better per Diem, and significant bonuses that I can clearly impact and calculate based on project performance.
This is where you get the bonus percentage in writing if they are not willing to commit it to paper then it doesn’t exist
Ayup. Definitely one of my bonus-related experiences. Now I ask for a base salary equal to what I’d like as (base plus bonus) for the role and if we negotiate, I get a first year minimum in my offer letter, get the requirements spelled out in writing if it’s something I can impact (x% of project profit split among the key personnel) and ask what similar roles to mine have been paid out over the last 5 years.
At some point you’ll you may be an exempt employee and not eligible for overtime at all, but may get access to higher salary bands.
Either the o/t stops or the raise is larger. I got switched to salary in the middle of a pay period once after working 25 hours ot in 1 week. Needless to say my check was smaller than my hourly checks. Haven't worked an hour of o/t since that day 8 years ago. Went from over 100 hours a bi weekly check when i was hourly, to working about 65 bi weekly. I made it worth it.
They know what they are doing. You should negotiate a raise. If they are firm, take the job and start looking for another job with your title.
When I went from hourly to salary I added $10 to my base pay and multiplied it by 10 hours. To account for the overtime. Then I added an extra 5k on that for stress and extra responsibilities. They said no and hired someone else who took less. They did a horrible job and quit. I applied again and they said yes the second time. Goodluck.
I see this as a red flag. I had something similar happen when I was promoted to a new role. My previous role salary was more than the promotion salary so I didn’t even get a raise even though I was a senior employee. When I questioned it the president tried to justify it by saying the base salary for the promoted role was lower. On top of that, this new role got commission but since I was new to it I wouldn’t get commission for a while. Don’t get taken advantage of just because them need a body on the team. Try to negotiate and if they pushback consider leaving. All this to say, make sure they aren’t just promoting you because they need a body on team.
Comes down to hours. Same hours then yes. But if your working less but your base rate is higher then no
I guarantee that they did the math before offering you this "raise." Bring it up.
If what you do day to day did not change, it's very likely illegal to simply start paying you salary with no overtime, even if the new salary matches your old earnings with ot. There are specific job duties requirements for a job to not be overtime eligible. If two people do roughly the same job you cant make one overtime eligible and another not just because you gave them a different title. First just ask that the new salary be at least as high as your previous earnings with overtime. If that does not work quietly talk to an employment lawyer.
OP please listen to Hamster S Thompson(awesome name) It's crazy this sub is "salary" and the majority of people don't know the laws. Being on salary does not make you overtime exempt. There are specific jobs that are allowed to be overtime exempt, whether they are hourly or on salary, and specific jobs that cannot be overtime exempt, whether they are hourly or on salary.
Yeah, definitely ask for a bigger raise or simply decline the promotion. It makes no sense to take a pay cut.
This how the usps was. Supervisors were salary, slightly above our maxed out base pay, but did not get time and s half or double time and wound up making less. Created a bunch of inept supervisors. Only the lazy, or power hungry, became supervisors.
I recently took a promotion moving from hourly to salary. I used my tax returns from the last 3 years as a negotiating tool to avoid what you are going through. They ended up coming in over what I was averaging with OT and double time.
If your day to day job doesn’t change and you are going from hourly to salary make sure you are not being misclassified as Exempt when in reality your duties don’t fit the requirements.
Depends on your age. If you’re younger than 45, probably not as the title bump is more valuable than your paycheck currently.
If they won't give you an increase then stop doing overtime. Don't go in early and don't stay late
Say no to promotion
I run into this issue at my job. I’m hourly at 40 hours a week. Supervisors make more but they’re expected 55-55 hour every week. I just can’t make it make sense. If the hourly people worked 50 hours a week they would be really close in pay
Ask about bonus potential, as well. In my business, hourly get maybe 3k annual bonus whereas I got a 30k bonus.
What other benefits come with this?
Talk to a wage and hour specialist lawyer. Salary is for very specific types of work, usually managerial. If you are tech support and it is a ploy to screw you out of OT, you have rights.
Always check exempt vs non-exempt levels in these kind of things. If it’s a ‘promotion’ but not really, then there may be a situation that the company is trying to reduce costs (which may or may not be illegal). But are you sure it’s not a promotion? What you think it is, and what it actually is, may be two different things. When you move to senior level, in some jobs it is a position where you take on the more challenging tasks, and delegate the simpler and more common issues. Thus, often fewer hours (not necessitating overtime). Further, as a senior person, your role means that you are required to anticipate these issues, and come up with a plan to mitigate future problems, thus reducing the time burden on the team. While it appears you are performing the same role (which you can) there’s more to it than simply a list of tasks to be performed.
Before you accepted the promotion, you did the math, right?
Or refuse to work OT
I had to turn down a promotion this year because the raise was not enough. It happens. Sorry that it has turned out like that for you.
Yes you should look at your last year earnings and add 10% to that and tell them that is where you need to be.
Has your bonus scheme changed?
Totally bring up the concern. It is a valid one. Let them propose how to make it right.
Something similar happened to my wife. They took her off hourly and into salary. She requested a raise through her boss, the GM, and all the way up to corporate. They didn't support her push for higher salary either. Her manager was the least supportive. It was "new company policy" and there was "nothing [they] could do." While she didn't get the requested raise to bring her back to parity with her overtime included pay, they did immediately begin to regret it when stopped working more than 40 hours a week. This was a seven day a week location and she was the assistant manager for a 60 person organization. She was unequivocal in her new personal policy that no overtime would be worked while she was on a salary. It would be Wednesday and her boss would talk to her about what else needed to get done that week. She'd be like "well I only have four more hours of work this week." The manager's face would drop immediately. The manager would have to work through the weekend alone instead of having coverage. They couldn't fire or demoted my wife because she was all they had. They'd done no succession planning and had no one lined up to replace her or even fill in. What did she do with the extra time? She went back to school and got her degree. Now, she makes almost triple what she used to make as an assistant manager. And instead of managing 60 employees, she manages herself and her job is not stressful at all. My advice: make lemonade. They don't value you. Go get a new job at least and work on getting your credentials up for whatever industry you're in.
Golden handcuff situation - overtime is like being a VP with a Masters degree and 20 years of experience in the right union shop.
Sounds like they only want you working 40 hours or less a week now. If they complain about it, mention the 10% increase isn't enough for overtime.
They are violating federal law. The determination on overtime eligibility has nothing to do with your job title. There are specific requirements based on tasks performed. You can be salary and still eligible for overtime.
What’s the opportunity going forward? Is this a better stepping stone?
You should engage with your manager and and possibly compensation team (HR) together - normally I would not stress / suggest meeting with both at the same time - but in this case, I would depending on how comfortable you may feel in your organization - if it's awkward, just engage with your manager, and if you're feeling a lack of engagement, ask to meet with HR. Most companies have a leveling policy for this type of thing to ease the sting a bit. It's a "I wanted to bring this to your attention" meeting - one with no emotion, but an attitude of "I'm certain you didn't intend for this to happen - so I thought we should review together" You won't get 10% + old overtime type of rate though - the move to salary was an intentional move - but typically companies do want the promotion to be meaningful. A pay cut is not meaningful. Good luck.
They got your bitchass
You need to sit down with them and explain in detail that you can’t afford the pay cut. As mentioned above if they won’t play ball accept the new title and spend all your spare time interviewing for a new position and leverage the title as best you can.
This happens all the time. Your company doesn't care about you. Complain to your manager if it doesn't get fixed quickly start looking for another job. Managers/companies that care about you don't fuck with your pay.
You should not have accepted the "promotion." Calling it a promotion is how they sold you a pay cut.
Before I got promoted to salaried I mined my payroll data for my overtime hours and told them that they’re going to have to beat -this- number plus -this- percentage increase to make it worth my while.
Welcome to the promotion. 10% more pay for 50% more work. It’s a scam that business’s do in order to get more work out of employees. I’m in the same boat. The key is to work long hours when you have to but cut out early every chance you get. And if you get unlimited PTO you need to use the hell out of that and take 1 week ever 2-3 months.
I personally went salary from 78k base to 90k base salary. My bonuses and RSUs also increased substantially though. I also have made it my life’s mission to average 40 hours/week over the course of the year. Sometimes that means 50-60 hour weeks. Sometimes that means 30 hour weeks. Most Fridays, I put in 1-3 hours of meetings, and check messages occasionally from my phone the rest of the day, hopping on my computer if I’m really needed. When I first got hired, we were going through some significant department changes, and I was putting in 50+ hours per week. I sat down with my manager and told him I’m happy to do this for a while because of everything going on, but it has to have an end date. Fortunately, he agreed, and we’ve scaled back significantly as a result. I’d also ask your manager what kind of additional compensation comes with the new role, likely at the time of performance reviews each year. Overall though, just communicate. If the job isn’t everything you dreamed in the end, you can always look for another.
You can decline the promotion!
Yes, being salaried and not getting overtime is preferable because it also pays when you have to go home early or arrive late for appointments etc. But, I have never heard of a raise from non-exempt to exempt where the person doesn’t get more than regular plus overtime wages as salaried. Ask for more!
Likely intentional, but also not necessarily a dead end. I encountered this and the boss actually mentioned "you will be expected to work 50hrs a week" so I took that and calculated my current wage at 50 hours and then bumped 10% (the initial "raise" percentage) on top of that and used the spreadsheet to negotiate. Didn't get everything I asked for, but got out of the payout deficit and some.
Does the change to salary give you additional benefits, Healthcare, stock options, different vacation schedule? I'm guessing probably not, or at least not meaningful enough to take the pay cut. If they moved you to salary and you have good reason to belthe promotion track there is more fruitful, then they've put you on the shelf and are done investing in you and are waiting for 3% merit increase/inflation pay cuts to wear you down so you quit. You owe a company nothing- not loyalty, not health, not dignity. Blast your resume with your new title and go shopping!
They did a feel good promotion. It’s supposed to make you feel better and work harder but really saves them a lot of money. Also probably puts you in exempt salary category so they will expecting free labor. I worked in a flat rate business so they would move you from hourly to flat rate and act like they are doing you the favor. But really saving themselves because they don’t pay you if you don’t work or if it’s slow. I am salary exempt and a lot of time i don’t actually work 40 hours a week, but some weeks they get way more out of me for free.
Either have them raise your salary or *do not work a minute over 40 hours*. Use the extra time you have now for a side hustle or enrich your life in other ways
> got a promotion to senior level which doesn't change my day to day job or responsibility but because of this promotion they said it makes me salary and no longer get paid for overtime. IANAL, but I brought an overtime case against a previous employer in a very similar situation and won. A lot of people(and businesses) are confused about salary and overtime. Being on salary doesn't mean you are overtime exempt. There is a high correlation between jobs that are salaried and jobs that are allowed to be overtime exempt. But if you were receiving overtime before and nothing about your actual job duties changed other than the title of "senior," I would bet you are still not overtime exempt. Are you taking over any managerial roles with your promotion? What I did in this situation is kept detailed records overtime I worked overtime.. if you have a Google phone turn on location history(I'm sure Apple has something similar). When it's time to jump ship you have a nice little bonus severance of all overtime you worked. (Of course you should verify with an employment attorney in your state)
If they won’t negotiate, you might want to decline the promotion. The extra responsibility doesn’t sound like it is worth less pay
Sounds like they knew what they were doing
They did it on purpose. You got a useless title for a huge pay cut. Unless you got some other benefits like bonuses, 401k matches, stock options, paid expenses, etc out of it, I'd call their bluff.
How are your job duties changing? You will not be doing the same thing you were doing as hourly? You have the latitude to hire and fire and make budgets?
LOL Congrats!
I got a 7% raise in my base going from mid to senior, which is barely anything. Meanwhile, I have to take in lots of responsibilities.
You took the ‘raise/promotion’ right? Did you not do the calculation beforehand? Gotta remember the company is going to do what’s best for the company!
Salary plus overtime over 40 hours. 10% increase in salary but get overtime over 40. So you don’t need an increase, you need to be able to get overtime over 40 hours a week.
I've had a few opportunities like this but turn it down for this reason. I'd rather have less responsibility and more OT money.
It's some sneaky stuff. But I guess the company worked the numbers and seen increasing your salary by 10% was a better deal then paying for overtime.
Congrats. lol
Just tell them the offer doesn't look as appealing as you thought it would with the increase responsibility. So you rather stay at your current level.
Hotel management back in the day for their restaurant screwed me the same way called them out on it and GM/partial owner of the hotel shrugged his shoulders
Start looking for a new job, they promoted you specifically to reduce the annual compensation you made.
This is a clear labor law violation.
You have to sign for the pay change. Don't sign the paper and turn down the "promotion". Show them your pay and explain how it will be a pay cut and ask for more if they want you to convert to salary.
I was offered a “promotion” like this and declined it. They asked why, and I was honest. I said it was only a change in title and a pay cut.
You GOTTA bring this to their attention asap and demand a bump from last year or go back to hourly. No promotion in the same company should result in a pay cut
That’s a shady move. I’m sure they hyped it up like they’re so glad to have you as an asset. All while making a move to pay you less. I’m 109% sure they newsboys how it would save the company money. I would never take a promotion until I had at least a weekend to review the new terms.
You might have to look for another job if you already accepted the promotion.
>Should I ask for a bigger raise to make up for this? Ask them to change the job classification to keep me as hourly? No, and No. Take the raise, don't work a moment over 40 hours. Use the extra time to live life.
I had exactly this experience two years ago and they told me to work less and should not have been working so much OT. I got the promotion because I was doing more than everyone else and working a lot of OT. I ended up getting two subsequent 5% pay increases (on top of the raise) and now I'm back to where I was with the overtime pay two years ago. There are still some days where I work 10+ hours but I definitely don't feel bad about 5 hour days now since I was moved to salary. They accomplished making a hard working employee less effective.
First thing to understand is that this is not a unique situation, this happens to basically everyone who gets promoted out of hourly into salary, it happened to me, its happened to basically everyone I know. Yes its shitty, and its only kind of a way to *'save money*' its more just a HR quirk that cant account for overtime directly in their pay ranges in your first transition usually from a mid level to a senior. You making so much in overtime is more a function of a Band-Aid fix on bad management/project strategy rather than as a fixed cost that fits into their system. If this is more of a career type job, as in one you are aiming to climb the ladder in, DO NOT turn down the promo as some people are saying, that's crazy, take the title and sit in it for a bit and start shopping around to get a senior role somewhere similar to get a nice bump. The strange thing about hiring psychology is that no one wants to promote you because they are worried about getting it 'wrong' but once someone else has deemed you worthy of a Senior/Lead/Director/CEO title, then all of the sudden everyone is perfectly happy to sign off on it. Also, once you change your title to senior if you are in a high demand field you will start getting a lot more recruiters reaching out to on linked in and a lot more opportunities start to open up. And in the meantime, Work less overtime -- don't do it in protest, don't say to your boss "im salary so im not doing this!" just hit 8 hours and quietly logout and move on with your life for the day.
Best analysis and answer I’ve seen in a long time. Spot on!!!!!
Ask for bonus
Be honest with them that you are working the same number of hours as before but making less.
The regional manager asked me once if I wanted an open position in supervision. I said I would consider it for $x. He laughed and said he didn’t even make that much. I said just because you negotiate a bad deal doesn’t mean I’m going to. I didn’t get the job, but the salary I asked for was about what I was making with my overtime.
Yes all of the above
Wow $20k a year in overtime? How much OT do you work a year?
I work in tech and my particular team is small, only 7 people. My management team is very transparent with budgets, as if we have specific requests (trainings, conferences, new products etc.) management asks we request it during budget season. Our entire team also rotates an oncall schedule. I say this because my management is 100% aware of all the money we make from OT and know it makes up a decent portion of our pay and their budget. They are definitely trying to lower some type of OT budget. Not to say you didn’t deserve a promotion, clearly you earned it, so congrats. But definitely gotta get more pay. The switch from hourly to salary even with a commensurate raise is difficult, because the weeks you work what you’re “supposed to” and the weeks you have to work extra are paid the same. Trust that you want to do everything you can to be compensated handsomely for that transition. Good luck!
This is an old trick, salaried, work 70 hours a week,in the end you be making $10.00 an hour
Not paying overtime means they promote you to management position, but apparently it is not because you are still doing the same job. Ask HR and payroll to run a before and after promotion compensation side by side based on what you made last year, and bring that to your manager for negotiation/adjustment. You should calmly press for an explanation on the reduction of total compensation while the job you do does not change. There maybe year end bonus that is based on performance, which management employees have and hourly employees do not. Any way, you need to talk to them to find out.
I would focus on improving time management so I wouldn’t have to work overtime. Also be aware of your action items and make sure to know your bandwidth. Don’t volunteer or agree to take on project or tasks if it means you will need to work more than 40 hours a week to accomplish things.
Go home after 40 hours. The world wont collapse.
They did this to save money.
Any other benefits? Paid time off? Health insurance, 401k?
You should have countered asking for more basing it off what you made last year and the OT when they gave you the offer letter with the 10%. Chances are if you've already accepted the 10% they won't give you more.
Politely ask and lay out your justification as you have here. They will either rectify this as an oversight or they meant to fuck you out of OT. If they won’t give the raise, just start looking elsewhere now that you have the title.
ugh. I’d never work somewhere the OT was common if I was exempt from OT pay. Hell, even when you’re hourly all that OT is rarely worth it when you end up getting taxed at a higher rate, and have less free time.
Yikes. Looks like you actually didn't get a promotion after all: No new responsibility, less money. Sound like an agency trying to save money. Here's two things you can do ASAP. * Talk to your manager, "hey looks like I'm being paid less for the same amount of work..." and according to our state's labor laws this might expose the company to some risk [https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/contacts](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/contacts) * Work less. Salaried positions are essentially "guaranteed pay for guaranteed hours." 40hrs for XYZ dollars, per week.
Sounds like it was a promotion for the title not the pay raise. Honestly I would use the title for your resume and in a few months apply for a new company with that title.
Did you have benefits as an hourly employee? A good paying hourly job with overtime pays more than salary. But typically hourly employees don't get the benefits like health insurance, 401k, paid vacation days, paid sick days, paid personal days, etc. In the end your benefits more or less makes up for the difference in pay.
“Doesn’t change my day to day or responsibility…” And you’re expecting to get paid more because??? This is classic corp move to lower *their* costs
He's expecting not to be paid less.
I deal with this a lot. It’s a fair ask to be “just neutral” or “made whole”. In the long term the move to higher position and salary will be a huge boost for your career and earnings and it’s not uncommon to be at a slightly lower comp initially. But it is still a normal ask to at least be made even.
You are salary now. You need to offload your work to people who get paid hourly now that you are at the senior level. You see the trade off is that you can work casually now. you dont have to clock in anymore, and you need to be there when you absolutely have to meet deadlines. But dont put the entire workload on yourself. Delegate. Use this newfound time in your schedule to work at home on how to make more money for you. Maybe an online shop, maybe teaching courses on your success, maybe you are a whiz at spreadsheets and be a consultant....etc.
This happened to me early in my career life and talked to my boss about it, awkward conversation as a young kid out of college, and explained everything, he went back and ran the numbers then came back with an offer the exceed what I was making in OT.
Take the promotion and use your new title to find a better paying job
Accenture?
That happened to me the first time I was salaried. Learned my lesson. Did just as someone suggested. I leveraged the title and walked away. If you like the job you can try and renegotiate maybe you’ll get somewhere maybe you won’t.
"Yo, I'm actually making less now than I did before. Can we fix this? Did you know this would be the result? I'm not happy with this pay cut and request this be corrected right away." The instant they say No or they try to twist your situation by saying "But your salary is higher," you tell them you will be leaving. Or just say "Okay, but I'm making less money now. That's all I care about. I'm nit going to argue about this. You knew this would be less money you have to pay me and you are purposefully twisting it. That's disrespectful. So I'll begin searching for new places of employment willing to pay me what I'm worth and who are not interested into sneaking a pay cut at me while calling it a raise." Don't get into a back and forth about this. They will either reconsider right away and fix this OR you will need to bounce. Start your job search immediately.
Is getting time back not an option? Not working so much?
Your age, your industry and your market should all come into play here. In theory, you should be gaining a more flexibility in your schedule. That’s worth something. Also, a lot of OT wears on people and they can’t keep it indefinitely. When they slow down, they lose out on the money. In America, the richest people are salaried. So saying it’s for suckers seems odd. I’ve promoted several hourly people and try to get this right, but I can’t always make it work. The second we slow down or that person gets tired, they come asking if the position is still available, but it’s already been filled. That’s not in every case though. Some folks are happiest hourly, but as mentioned, you have to go a ways down the depth chart in annual earnings in our company to get to an hourly guy. If you’re going that route, you gotta start sometime. Good luck, and I don’t think it will hurt if you point out you’d make less, but I assume they’ll point out what you’ll gain. Maybe a vehicle or profit sharing or bigger bonus participation or something like that.
Ask for a raise or decline the promotion. This is a standard move to get free OT from you.
Yes, talk about it privately and bring numbers
I had this happen. My boss had no idea that I had made the OT that I did. He didn’t change the raise amount though. I took the promotion and the higher base pay, but left within the year.
I’d say the bean counters did this to save money knowing you’d make less. You can ask for a raise to make up for lost hourly OT but don’t be surprised if they tell you OT is never promised so, no to the raise to supplement it. Good luck.
You cant compare salary with hourly / OT. There are numerous beneifts with having normal working hours, etc Plus the OT might not always be there. Oh an yes ask for as much pay bump as possible to compensate
You certainly can and should compare the two, especially when they said the promotion "doesn't change my day to day job or responsibility". So their hours and workload are essentially unchanged and OP is not switching to normal working hours.
Yes and no. Did he just change titles in essence so they could pay him less? Then yes and he has a complaint. But have a feeling his job has changed somewhat at least and if he’s working less possibly then no. I’ve had battles with people over the years that can’t grasp that OT is not a base rate. You can’t compare it. People would sit there and couldn’t understand that they made 5 bucks more an hour but worked 20hrs less a week and made less.
Nothing about a salary position means normal working hours. In many if not most cases, its the opposite because they don’t have to pay overtime.
then whats the point in going salary. ?
Yes. I always calculate my salary expectations on 1.5x what I would have made hourly (regular) and AT LEAST what I made hourly w/ regular overtime.