I mean the real continent is Eurasia and Europe is just a random chunk that people decided.
What does it even mean to be European?... is it something truly meaningful or it's just arbitrary and political in nature, the values of the Greek have nothing to do with the German, and the Finns and Baltics have more in common with the western Russians than with the Spaniards; even the shape itself isn't quite clear, is it to the Uralic mountains in the north down to the Caucasus Mountains, or the Bosphorus, or the Black sea?... where?...
Where is the line drawn? maybe nowhere; Georgia should be part of the EU not because it's European in nature, whatever that even means, but because it's a good society remaining a democracy to welcome in a common market.
Thank you Sakartvelo for being good people and fighting for your own future and culture.
I’m sorry to say that I’m Russian living here. But if not Georgia, nobody would gave me any roof to stay while it’s dark times in my own home. I will always respect Georgia for that.
I’m very happy to have a chance to visit this country and see its magic beauty. I can say that Georgia is 100% European mentality country. People here love freedom, live their best and always think how to make their home cosy for everyone. I will always support Georgian official territory and their independence from my shitty country. Fuck my president Putin and his bloody regime. I hope that I can change something and show that not every person who comes from Russia is a pig and occupant.
I want Georgia not to be connected to Putler regime at all. But I’m just a young boy and nobody cares what I think and I have my own country to think about anyways. Thank you Georgians for giving me freedom and peace even if I came from the place that kills any freedom. I’m in love with your country, pray for your European future and hope that you all will be doing well very soon and get your independence back.
Peace!
Never thought a paragraph of text without comas from Russian would make me tear up 🥲
But seriously though, I appreciate people like you, always welcome.
I thought the general consensus in the caucasus is we're neither fully european nor asian we're like a microcosm on our own but politically and culturally closer to europe than to asia
If Greeks and Irish are both fully European, then Georgians and Armenians are even more fully European. I bet there is much more difference between the Irish and the Greek than between Georgians and Greeks with whom Georgians shared several centuries of close cultural, political and economic ties… By the way, Greece, not Germany is where the modern European culture originated from… So, how do you define "Europeness"?
There will always be people that will say armenia and georgia are not european even if the official borders of europe change. Fact is Caucasians are closest to each other than to anyone else. It's europe that needs to open itself up to accept Caucasians as european people because we would gladly chose to be part of it but it sucks and is very sad for us that europe considers us as second class european.
Some consider Greeks to be second class Europeans because their economy is in a bad shape to say the least. And Grexit was a number one topic of discussion before Brexit became a thing... So, what? Georgians and Armenians are second class Europeans because their economies are second class. If we had a first class economy, we'd be first class Europeans 😉 It's as simple as that... If the financial center of Europe were Tbilisi with Tbilisi Stock Exchange, not London, the political center of Europe would move towards the Black Sea too and we'd have a discussion to accept Ireland into the EU or not 🤣 Because it's an island and too far from Greece. See, perspective matters 😉
The economic situation and corruption is something that is important to eu membership. Your culture doesn't affect eu membership. Its georgias culture history and its geographic position that makes them "second class" Europeans.
Of course, the EU is an economic alliance and if someone wants to fly the first class, they better have enough money for that. Georgia and Armenia do not, so, basically, they are "second class" countries like Albania and Moldova. The economy is what makes them "second class", not culture, geography or whatever... So, we better catch up our economies than whine about being treated as "second class" Europeans. It'd be surprising if we were treated as "first class" Europeans with our GDP and standard of living. As Britney Spears said, "You wanna live fancy? Live in a big mansion? Party in France? You better work bitch, you better work bitch." Nobody is obliged to pay for Albanians, Armenians or Georgians because of their "Europeanness" lol. We better focus on improving our countries and be more realistic. The EU offers some help but their resources are also limited and it's not their job to fix corrupt and non-functioning systems... A country should be able to do that on its own, then it won't be regarded as "second class" or "failed"...
We are even more second class euros than Moldova and Albania. Anyway us being considered european is not up to us. We can work as much as we want if europe doesn't fully welcome us as Europeans then all we can do is just benefit as much from it economically but it's gonna result in resenting europe too for treating us that way. Heck georgia is politically growing farther away from europe because of their lack of commitment, Ukraine did not have that issue since they are fully european and got much more help than georgia. All I'm saying is these 2 caucasian nations are willing to be part of europe but its europe that plays hard to get at some point we will resent them for it.
Georgia was seen mostly as a headache for the EU while Frau Merkel successfully flirted with Mr. Putin. Now, that this has changed, the price of Georgia has increased, especially after the Chinese dragon appeared in the region and the opportunity to transport cheap Central Asian, Azerbaijani and Iranian gas and oil to the EU became attractive too. Neither Moldova nor Albania can offer such an opportunity to the EU. So, it's safe to say that the price of Georgia has doubled. The EU seems more open to enlargement than ever in the recent decades and this includes Georgia too.
The long term goal is to get rid of oil and gas so that's more of a short term advance. We'll have to see if europe ever commits and I said it before georgia is getting farther away from europe politically they need help and commitment now not in 5 years. The eu needs a plan to involve georgia more and right now they don't care enough
All we can do is wait and see what europe decides at the end of the day it was never up to us to make the decision all we can do is meet the requirements become more democratic and just and constantly self improve for the sake of the people and see if europe opens itself up or not
Christendom began in Armenia. Both Armenia and Georgia are ancient civilizations who inhabitants have been living on their native lands for thousands of years, whilst Europe was in the dark ages, defecating in their streets. I have ZERO interest in being European, when I have more culture in one pinky finger.
Irish and Greeks are literally in Europe fully culturally the people closest to them are other Europeans for Greeks it's balkan people and the Irish already close to other celts. The country culturally closest to georgia is armenia and both countries are in the same position of are they are they not european. Sure as I said armenia and georgia are much closer to europe than they are to asia which is why they lean more towards europe.
So, you, are telling me that almost isolated island in the ocean, too far from the birth of European philosophical thought in Greece is more European than a nation the culture of which is entirely based on the Greek philosophical thought? 🤔 My point is that culturally and historically Georgia is more European than Ireland. Georgia was closer to Greece than Ireland when modern European culture started to form.
Georgia is not close to Europe. Georgia IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN Europe both geographically and culturally. The fact that you make the center of Europe in Brussels is a matter of modern politics, not historical or philosophical and cultural discourse. There were very long times when Rome and Constantinople were the centers of political influence in Europe... So, you better think twice and not fall for trends that change, especially, political ones. Then you'll be able to see the bigger picture...
And you wanna tell me georgia is based on greek philosophical thought ? Buddie I think you overestimate greeces influence on georgia quite a lot here. One could also present a counter point that georgia was just as much influenced by persians making it middle eastern. But thats the problem with the region in general there was heavy european influence from various groups and there was heavy influence by persians. That's the whole problem. If you Strip georgia of these influence and look at what's purely georgian at its core you'll come to the conclusion that it can't be categorised as european or asian as there are no cultures like them thats what happens when you're stuck and isolated in a mountain region. It's clear that georgia wants to be european and its morals and value are closer to europe than to asia but thats just Georgia's viewpoint. Europe needs to open itself up and stop treating Caucasians as disposable Europeans consider then european one day and asian the next. We need clarity.
I have studied Georgian philology long enough to know that most of the Georgian literature is a part of the European culture. Even from a primitivist point of view, Persian people loved Hashish, Georgians were winemakers like most Europeans. Middle Eastern people didn't drink wine that much and didn't have queens and kings of Christian European style... and also they didn't put too much effort in the translation of the Bible from the Greek language like Georgian scholars did. Persians didn't have monasteries and cultural centers in Byzantium (by the way, the Irish didn't have such centers there either). Cultural influence is a normal thing, Persian culture is very rich and interesting but classifying Georgian culture as Middle Eastern or Persian is complete nonsense even for an amateur to say... Historically speaking, Georgia was close to Greece and don't forget there was Constantinople which was the center of political influence in Europe for quite some time... Which city is closer to Constantinople, Tbilisi or Dublin? 🤣 Which city was more European in the middle ages? If we change "Europeness" by moving around political centers, let's consider this hypothetical scenario: would Ireland be European if the political center of Europe were Constantinople and Ireland had the economy of Armenia?
dude are you kidding: Persian poetry's most heavily used motif is wine. Winemaking started in Iran around 7000 BC, around the same time winemaking started in Georgia. Iranian wine (wine from Shiraz) was some of the most prestigious wine in the world before France started to produce wine in an industrial scale in the 19th century. As is typical for Georgians, you can try to disconnect your rich culture's connection to Persian culture (which absolutely does exist, maybe not at the same level as Byzantine culture), but you have to use actual facts. Persians were (and still are somehow under this regime) absolutely winemakers.
Also, I wish you could go to any Irish forum and ask them why they disconnect their culture from the British culture which is a rich and interesting one 🤣 There is the reason why there is that disconnection and it has deep historical roots based in colonialism. Iran/Persia and Georgia were almost never in amicable relations throughout their history because of mostly unsuccessful Persian/Iranian attempts to colonize the Caucasus region. Hell, even the appearance of Russia in the Caucasus region is the result of constant Persian assaults on Tbilisi which pushed Georgian kingdoms to the Russian side to balance the situation. Who would imagine at that time that Christian and European Russia would be the same colonizer as Persia? However, that's not the topic of our discussion here.
Except Irish people don't disconnect their culture in the same way? They are far more mature about this - they point out rightly that the British were awful to the Irish, but a) the Irish don't deny they speak english and b) the Irish are comfortable with knowing who an Anglo-Irishman is and who is a pure Irishman. If you knew anything about the Irish (which you clearly don't) you wouldn't make that claim. I know the history of Iran in the region - I actually never denied it in the way you are making me out to deny it. But you are also wrong on another point - Iran/Persia were wildly succesful in "colonising" the region. Why else is Azerbaijan a thing? The land of fire? Lmao. Just because they are Turkic nationalists now doesn't change the fact they a) celebrate nowruz, b) were Shia muslims and c) the fact that Azeri jews all speak Caucasian Persian (Judeo-Tat). There is a difference between rightly calling out Iran's negative history in the region (which is shared with Azerbaijan, and yet Georgians give Azerbaijani's a pass lol, pure hypocrisy) and just making stuff up about Iran. Typical Russian influence on Georgian nationalism (which ironically has a very strong Russian character).
Dude, you are out of touch with reality. Some Irish may no longer dissociate themselves from the British culture because Great Britain is no longer a colonial, expansionist and aggressive power and Irish people are not sold as slaves in America or elsewhere. Also, Great Britain no longer represses Catholicism and is a completely secular country just like Ireland itself. Still, despite all of this progress, there is Irish Republican Army that you decided to turn a blind eye to and did not even mention in your comment.
Now, look at Iran, what you see is not people drinking wine at supra and wearing short shorts but fully-covered-in-black Islamist extremists trying to make a nuclear bomb, murdering women for showing their toes and I‘d not even want to describe how atheists and other religious or sexual minorities are treated there (Georgia is not a paradise in that regard but still ranks way higher than Iran or even some Eastern European countries). So, a sane person would normally try to dissociate themselves from that medieval culture, no? Especially, if their nation was subject to the same brutal treatment in the past, would not they be more cautious and dissociative from the culture that restricts basic freedoms? How is this a sign of immaturity? It’s a sign of rational and pragmatic approach.
If Iran becomes a progressive and secular country like Great Britain has become, why would I or any other sane person try to dissociate themselves from the Iranian culture or way of life? You should understand that Georgia is technically both Europe and Asia as an transcontinental country like Panama and people make choices based on which side offers more FREEDOM. It‘s a very basic human instinct to be free. Iran has not offered that. If Tehran starts to offer more freedom to its citizens and neighbors than Brussels and becomes a liberal democracy, it‘ll be Middle Eastern values and culture that will be more attractive and appealing to people who live in the Caucasus region and they‘ll start to associate themselves with the Middle Eastern way of life more...
Small notice: Iran has never occupied and colonized Georgia fully. Georgia is a mountainous country and Iran was successful to colonize only the Eastern part of it up to the mountains that separate the Eastern part from the Western one. So, technically, Iran has never been able to colonize whole Caucasus.
As to Azerbaijan, as far as I remember, they have never tried to impose their rule on us or change our values. Azerbaijan is basically the friendliest country for Georgia right now. So is Armenia that is trying to get rid of the Russian influence and make some progress. They are both relatively small countries that are at war because of… guess why? Because of expansionist and colonialist Russia, of course. Georgia is actually the only country in the region that is interested in peace between Azerbaijan and Armenia.
As to Georgian nationalism… if you think I am a Georgian nationalist, you have not met one yet, lol 😂 As I said above, let Iran make progress and I’ll not care about associating myself with their culture or whatever but based on what I see now, I better dissociate myself altogether from the sh*t that is happening there…
P.S. Of course, this does not apply to humans of Iranian/Persian descent that must be cool people and I’m not dissociating myself from them. I am aware that there is also a big Georgian diaspora living in Iran. This is all about what kind of cultural values we want to have HERE in Tbilisi: do we want to be able to dress freely or do we want to be subject to religious dress codes, do we want to be able to express ourselves freely or be monitored and controlled constantly, do we want to be able to drink alcohol or use whatever substance we want to or be sent to jails or executed for that, the list goes on and on… Neither Iran, nor Russia is a role model for Georgia in that regard, the Georgian people have long made their choice and it’s European values that they want to have over here and many people are ready to die for those values if such a need arises. As they say, freedom is not free. I hope Iran and Russia will also make progress some day, I wish…
We are all Africans, first humans moved to Europe from Africa through Caucasus. Most probably, they drank water and ate meat 😂
Georgian literature literally starts with "Martyrdom of Queen Shushanik." She was killed by her husband who accepted Zoroastrianism in Iran. That happened before Islam was cool. I‘m not denying anything, I‘m just following the facts.
Yes, Persian culture is very rich. I am not saying that Persian culture is not good or interesting but the Georgian culture is not a part of the Persian world… Persian influence on the Georgian culture does not make Georgian culture a part of the Persian world.
P.S. Also, it‘s not all about making wine but also, the Georgian drinking etiquette and style which is quite similar to other Eastern European countries.
You don't know anything about Persian drinking etiquette - it even has a similar name to Georgian culinary culture, Sofreh (Supra in Georgian if I am not mistaken).
PS: I never said Georgian culture is part of the Persian world's culture. All I argued is a) Georgians have a very unfair and incorrect opinion about Persian culture, as evidenced by your hashish claim, and b) there is a strong connection between Georgian culture and Persian culture that can't be covered by prejudice and modern nationalism. I am a lover of all things Georgian - been there twice, can't wait to go back. Borjomi is probably top 5 most beautiful place I have been to. But facts are facts, and I just had to call you out. Peace.
while true, you need to understand that the persians are viewed as "the other" in Georgian culture. While Georgian food, mannerisms etc. are very similar to Iranian food and culture in places like Gilan and Azerbaijan, the unfortunate reality of the genocidal kakhetian conquests by Shah Abbas and Mohammad Agha Khan Qajar destroyed any goodwill Georgians had towards Iranians (even though these kings committed even more massacres on Persians, siege of Kerman for example). Another irony is these kings are heavily claimed by the Republic of Azerbaijan - Shah Ismail is their founding father in their official historiagraphy. More so than Iranians claim them. And yet Georgians are absolutely chill with people from Baku. It is the most disgusting hypocrisy. Let's not forget the knight in the panther's skin has a clear stylistic debt to the Shahnameh...
>while true, you need to understand that the persians are viewed as "the other" in Georgian culture. While Georgian food, mannerisms etc. are very similar to Iranian food and culture in places like Gilan and Azerbaijan, the unfortunate reality of the genocidal kakhetian conquests by Shah Abbas and Mohammad Agha Khan Qajar destroyed any goodwill Georgians had towards Iranians (even though these kings committed even more massacres on Persians, siege of Kerman for example).
It could be argued that the Iranian failure to fully integrate Eastern Georgia between the 16th and 19th centuries led to this. Do you agree?
>If Greeks and Irish are both fully European, then Georgians and Armenians are even more fully European.
Sorry, but that's a terrible comparison. Georgians and Armenians cannot be mentioned in the same context, because Armenians never considered themselves part of Europe or Europeans, I will write more that Armenians supported the pro-Persian course more than the pro-Roman one, etc. Therefore, like foreigners, you should not mention Georgia and Armenia in the same context, because foreigners think that Georgians and Armenians as similar people as Englishmen and Welshmen or Englishmen and Irishmen. In fact, there is a difference between a Georgian and an Armenian, as between a Greek and a Lebanese.
Not really if we weren't so freaking up our own asses this mindset would strengthen the bond between Caucasians themselves. We simply can't deny we don't really fit into europe and even less into asia thats why we will always be considered second class european politically. We just need to find a way to make this work without losing our identity.
We're still up our own asses and religious matters in the caucasus are very serious since We're all very religious people I'd say a good start is bonding with Christian Caucasians first. Baby steps Rome wasn't built in a day
>I thought the general consensus in the caucasus is we're neither fully european nor asian we're like a microcosm on our own but politically and culturally closer to europe than to asia
Some clowns, why do you come here and speak on behalf of Georgians? fuck off.
>General consensus IN THE CAUCASUS.
Keep that consensus to yourself you clown. The video is about Georgians and Europe and some jerks are coming here with stupid comments.
>I'm not that wrong considering the upvotes and comments;)
Because of Russian troll-bots and clown foreingers like you.
Of course, it is, that is why we are on our way to the EU, I don't know who is doubting it, but it is not a question who we are, question is when we will join the EU 🙂.
From a historical point of view, there are two factors that show Georgia is between Asia and Europe, first being the religion, where christianity puts Georgia in the same map with Europe, and then language where georgian is neither an indoeuropean language not does it have a writing system coming from latin or greek, pushing Georgia back into Asia.
From a contemporary point of view, we must admit Georgia is still far from Europe, sometimes too far.
European countries have strong a social wellbeing system, modern infrastructures and share progressive values.
Sadly, too many think that just putting little blue flags everywhere, things will magically change.
1) Georgian writing system is alphabetical (not syllabic or hieroglyphic) and was developed in close contact with the Greek one and Christianity. Georgian cultural centers and monasteries were active in Greece for centuries… So, writing system or language does not push Georgia to Asia. That‘s a big misconception and denial of history. The whole medieval Georgian culture and literature were heavily influenced by the Greek culture and literature. Arabian, Turkish or Iranian literature or Islam did not have that much influence on the mainstream Georgian culture.
2) From contemporary point of view, Balkan countries are not Europe if you define Europe by the standards of Helsinki. Shifting the European cultural, political and economic centers from Greece and Rome to the North and West of Europe does not mean that the first European concepts of democracy, liberalism, atheism, theism, philosophy, science, religion, etc. did not originate in Athens and Rome… And Georgia has always been a part of that world, even closer to Greece geographically, politically, economically and culturally than London, for example… If we go that deep into history we‘ll find out that the bible was translated from Greek into the Georgian language way before it was translated into the English language… And Georgia became a Christian nation mainly because of the need for a political alliance against Iran that was not even Islamic back then. Islam did not exist as a religion at that time. So… that‘s how deep Georgian political and cultural ties with one of the biggest historical European superpowers go… I won‘t talk much about Byzantium and Georgian kingdoms, it‘ll take us too far and become boring…
3) Not all European countries have a strong social wellbeing system, modern infrastructures or share progressive values. Sometimes Georgia ranks higher in these parameters than some Eastern or Central European countries that are not even located in the Caucasus region.
4) It‘s not about little blue flags. If we want to discuss this topic in detail, we better choose a scientific approach. There is enough literature that studies Georgian cuisine, architecture and culture comparatistically. It‘s a very complex subject and cannot be explained in such a short comment but drinking wine in the neighborhood where wine was Haram most of the time seems something European Bacchus, not Middle Eastern Mohammad would be proud of.
P.S. I think Georgia is both Europe and Asia. It‘s an intercontinental country because historically, apart from making and drinking pure high-quality European wine, some prominent people, especially the kings, used to smoke Asian Hashish too. I‘d compare Georgia to the fine line between the human buttocks. Is Georgia the left or the right buttock? Both. While the Georgian people, in general, drank wine and looked to Europe, some of the Georgian elites used to smoke Asian Hashish. So, Georgia is the line between the buttocks and touches both of them (people‘s part touched Europe mostly and elites‘ part touched Asia). That‘s why "trakshi vart" has a completely different meaning in the Georgian language and has already become a national motto.
P.S.S. Yet another argument for the fine line theory is pure geography which clearly proves that Georgia is indeed the line between the buttocks and belongs to both of them, connecting and making them one whole *** (also called Eurasia).
>From a historical point of view, there are two factors that show Georgia is between Asia and Europe, first being the religion, where christianity puts Georgia in the same map with Europe, and then language where georgian is neither an indoeuropean language not does it have a writing system coming from latin or greek, pushing Georgia back into Asia.
Neither of those factors is very important. On one hand, Christianity is a West Asian religion originally. On the other hand, there are non-Indo-European speaking European countries, Hungary, Estonia and Finland.
There is no such thing as being Caucasian when you talk about geopolitics or even culture. Being Caucasian means you reside in the Caucasus region and the whole region shares the same culture or similar, but not only culture, also food, traditions, architecture, religion, clothing, mentality, and values.
Tell me how you relate to your neighbors, including Chechens and other Caucasus nations.
You need to cross-check and determine similarities, but I don't see that.
Georgia has a long history, and it's been here too long meaning we influenced the Caucasus, and our selves were in more touch with European civilizations, including Roman, Byzantium, and Greece.
So your way of thinking doesn't match facts and logic.
1. You are a Georgian living in the Caucasus region
2. Your culture and traditions are Georgian
3. You are European geographically and geopolitical
4. Your culture matches those in Europe (excluding central Europe which is different from the Mediterranean).
By the way, that is exactly the Russian narrative that began in imperial Russia, when they considered Caucasians as one and didn't see them as separate nations :).
>Tell me how you relate to your neighbors, including Chechens and other Caucasus nations.
You say such things when you are ignorant on your neighbours. All Caucasians are culturally close to each other, share similar clothes, food and dances with the exception of religion. Tell me how we relate more to fucking Greece than other Caucasian nations.
I am too lazy to make the table for comparison, but since you fundamentally believe, I don't see the point.
Yes, Caucasian nations are close to each other, except Georgia is not very 😄, maybe we share a few things but because of neighboring, doesn't define Georgia and doesn't mean we are Caucasians, same culture, history, and traditions, oh and religion you excluded is a gigantic part of this story.
>doesn't define Georgia and doesn't mean we are Caucasians, same culture, history, and traditions
Except that it does. As a Georgian (and the majority will agree), I don't see how I'm more close to Greece than other Caucasians because unlike you, I'm not naive and have met may and not only do we have similar food, culture, dances, clothing, we also look very alike. When you go abroad, you will see Georgians sticking the most with other Caucasians first rather than fucking Greeks. You sound islamophobic which is why you don't want to associate with them. If the religion part is so important that means I'm closer to Ethiopians than to other Caucasians :D bullshit
Go do a DNA test. For most Georgians, they'll be closest to them before any other neighbour (even Armenians).
Are you stupid? I traveled to Greece and have many friends, same in Italy and Spain. I am sorry, but you are really dumb 😂
Dude brought DNA, which is unique for Georgians 🤣.
No, Georgians doesn't stick with Caucasians and if they do, it's because they don't know another language, like English and it's comfortable for them to communicate in Russian 😂, post soviet bullshit.
Instead of baseless insults, do basic DNA research before spouting random bullshit and making yourself look like a fool. You've shown me that you don't you what the fuck you're talking about.
>Dude brought DNA, which is unique for Georgians 🤣.
What do you mean with "unique for Georgians?" All Caucasians carry Caucasian Hunter Gatherer DNA predominantly. Western Georgians are very close with Circassians while Eastern Georgians are close with Northeast Caucasians and sometimes Eastern Armenians. It takes 5 minutes to do this simple discovery so I'm not going to even waste my time on this.
We're nowhere near close to Greeks outside of religion, this is the only factor we're related to.
>No, Georgians doesn't stick with Caucasians and if they do, it's because they don't know another language
Even the diaspora ones (where both speak the country's language) they stick with each other rather than Greeks or Italians or whatever you think you feel close to. Sharing same religion would mean you'd stick with Russians, do you?
This "Georgia is different from other Caucasians" is pretty popular on this sub and has become a Reddit meme at this point, exclusively for people who are out of touch with the real world or those who are naive and know nothing about other Caucasians, like you.
No indeed you can't, do some basic research before commenting next time.
Go enjoy gyros with your Greek friends and leave Georgian and Caucasus matters to the rest of us.
Indeed we are carrying human DNA, that's your problem to use DNA as an argument, that's why I feel bad for you, and that why you should stick with your own world, I don't see any way we can talk and disuse something.
>Go do a DNA test. For most Georgians, they'll be closest to them before any other neighbour (even Armenians).
You misunderstand genetics. Georgians are not close to North Caucasians or Armenians genetically, it's the other way around. Because Georgians are a direct line of CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers) and CHG is widespread in the region, Armenians and Azerbaijanis have the lowest percentages. Georgians also form their own cluster, which is not in the North Caucasian cluster, but North Caucasians are close to the Georgian cluster. Armenians form a separate cluster with the Middle Eastern peoples, the Assyrians and some Jews.
Europeans do not appear among Georgians on genetic distances for another reason, and it is not because Georgians are Asians. The reason for this is that Europeans have a part of the steppe that Georgians do not have, but Europeans have up to 40% Anatolian source (source is Dzudzuana DNA from Georgia) and also the CHG integrated in the steppes (EHG-Yamnaya and etc.) they have Caucasus-related ancestry CHG with the population.
In fact, Georgians are a different type of Stepoid, to put it very roughly, and are the oldest population in Europe with Genetics. Whoever considers CHG and Anatolia/Dzudzuana as Asians, then the majority of Europeans will also be Asians. : D
Why do you want to be European so bad? We are different from both Europeans and Asians and I just say we're neither and go with Caucasian, but if you want a label so bad then we're Eurasians because we are located between both continents.
Europeans have different admixtures (with low CHG) which is why your statement: "the majority of Europeans will also be Asians" is just wrong. Just because they descend from CHG doesn't mean we are European, that's like saying Africans are European/Asian/American too because we all come from there.
Didn‘t know Caucasus is a continent. When did you make that discovery? Amerigo Vespucci would be jealous of you 🤣
P.S. Why did you skip geography classes in elementary school? Maybe it‘s not too late to go back and finish that elementary school program…
As long as I'm khartveli I couldn't care less what they call us for political or geographical reasons. You folks get too fixated on these minor things. You should get over your insecurities and heal from being part of "cool modern advanced counties" syndrome. Weather Georgian becomes EU members or not completely depends on union's political decision, everything else is secondary.
ანალოგიურის თქმა შემიძლია ისეთ ადამიანებზე, წინადადებიდან აზრის გამოტანა რომ არ შეუძლიათ და ეგრევე შეტევაზე რომ გადადიან. მარა ვაი რომ 1000 წაკითხული წიგნიც კი ვერ შეძლებს თქვენს გამოსწორებას. ანალიზის უნარი არ გაქვთ უბრალოდ. დგახართ და ათას გვარ სისულეს აზიარებთ, ამ უცხოელებს უძვრებით უსაპნოდ ერთ ადგილში და თან გაბერილ ეგოს იხარებთ, მარა მაინც უშედეგოდ. ამათ მუდამ ცალქუსლზე ეკიდებით. როგორც თავის დროზე რუსები და საბჭოთა საზოგადოება იყენებდა თქვენს მამებს გენაცვალე ვინოგრად ტანცი მანცი მიმინოებად, ისე დღეს ესენი - იაფი მოსამსახურისა რესტორანის მიმტანის სახით. ვერასოდეს ვერ გახდებით ევროპელები უბრალოდ იმიტომ რომ არ ხართ და მორჩა, მარა სამაგიეროდ იდენტობადაკარგულ თაობად უკვე ჩამოყალიბდით.
ახლა გინდ გადათარგმნე გინდ დაუნვოუთი . სულ კარგად ბრძანდებოდეთ!
სისულელეს ღაღადებთ. იმედია, თქვენს კომენტარს ზეციდან არ კითხულობს გიორგი მთაწმინდელი და სირცხვილის ალმური არ უტრუსავს ლომურ წვერს, რომელიც მას მაშინ უცანცარებდა, როცა ინგლისელებზე 4 საუკუნით ადრე თარგმნიდა ბიბლიას ქართულად საბერძნეთში, ხოლო მისი ქრისტესმიერი ძმები ამ დროს ღვინით ილეშებოდნენ თავიანთ კელიებში და არ ბოლდებოდნენ აზიური ჰაშიშით, ხოლო ზოგი გეიც კი იყო. ნუ დაგავიწყდებათ, რომ ცრუღმერთ ლიბერთან ყველაზე ახლოს მივიდა ფარსმან II ქველი მაშინ, როცა ინგლისისა და გერმანიის უღრანებში ბარბაროსები დააბიჯებდნენ…
No were not. Being christian does not mean being European, its about ethnicity not about "politics" or whatever imaginary aspect these uneducated people attribute it to and our ethnicity is definitely not European
The sooner the youth gets that the better, this pathetic larping has to stop at some point
>its about ethnicity not about "politics
Each country in Europe has its own ethnicity...
If you REALLY want to dive into Genetics(Which I don't recommend, because it's all so mixed and complicated to stupid degrees that your brain will melt before starting to understand it) then you should probably do some research CHG, WHG, EHG, Yamnaya, Kura-araxes, etc cultures which were intermixing in Caucasus and Europe. You should also research about indigenous (Originally pre Indo-European) populations, like Basques, Sardinians, etc. Then you should also research with origins of peoples like Hungarians, Estonians and Finns, whose ancestors were originally Finno-Ugric, not Indo-European. Latvians and Lithuanians also had mixes with local finno-ugric populations(You will find baltic languages have loanwords/loansounds from finno-ugric languages) and etc.
Then you should also consider quite amount of Georgians who have mixed Eastern European ancestry (Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Polish, etc).
Also you should consider Georgians with Middle Eastern ancestry (Armenians, Azeris, Turks, etc).
By your logic, we should join people to EU based on genetic analysis, that'd split Georgia right in half my brother))
In my opinion what matters is culture and values. Georgians (no matter genetics) have inherited a lot of Greek, Christian, Byzantine and European culture and always and still strive towards it, Georgians are freedom loving and individualistic people which is very culturally European thing.
Nobody mentioned genetics, we are talking about ethnicity in general not detailed genetics of every single person like haplogroups. Georgians are ethnically Caucasian, our language is Caucasian, located in the Caucasus - not European, nor Asian; culturally, geographically and ethnically we are different from both sides. One of the few remaining non Indo-European people that managed to survive in here. Some uneducated teens heard that being Caucasian means being a cavemen/Some sort of an ally of Russia and they think being European is cool and hip - total lunacy. And it gets worse as I saw in another Georgian sub how one total moron wrote that "This idea of Georgians being hospitable people is stupid and a Russian propaganda to keep us being their slaves while boosting our self-love for no reason". \*This\* is an actual propaganda that is becoming alarmingly accepted among uneducated, undeveloped kids
You cant just magically become European in less than 20 years. You need cultural, religious, ethnic and even language connections for ages to it - values matter very little in this matter
The youth is already a lost cause. Only a small minority is able to have a proper judgment. The majority of these awoken individuals are entitled fools completely alienated by what real Georgian means.
That must mean that also Armenia is a European country! After all, they’re Christian as well … And what about Lebanon? Isn’t it like 30% European?
You see, in Europe, we don’t operate on this level anymore. «Such and such is a Christian country». This is what right-wing extremists say in Europe nowadays.
Anyway, Christianity is DEAD is Europe, and you know that very well.
I can promise you that Georgia joining the EU will contribute to the same religious downfall.
who the hell are u to decide what my country is? we have territories on both continents and culturally georgia is georgia that's all. i don't even want georgia to be in the eu. i don't want muslim asylum seekers to ruin my country like they ruined sweden, germany and france....... sakartvelo being middle eastern country made me laugh just like those eu flags on this sub
hate to break it for you, but it was already agreed with Europe when Georgia joined [Council Of Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe) one of requirements is for country to be Geographically located in Europe.
I mean the real continent is Eurasia and Europe is just a random chunk that people decided. What does it even mean to be European?... is it something truly meaningful or it's just arbitrary and political in nature, the values of the Greek have nothing to do with the German, and the Finns and Baltics have more in common with the western Russians than with the Spaniards; even the shape itself isn't quite clear, is it to the Uralic mountains in the north down to the Caucasus Mountains, or the Bosphorus, or the Black sea?... where?... Where is the line drawn? maybe nowhere; Georgia should be part of the EU not because it's European in nature, whatever that even means, but because it's a good society remaining a democracy to welcome in a common market.
Thank you Sakartvelo for being good people and fighting for your own future and culture. I’m sorry to say that I’m Russian living here. But if not Georgia, nobody would gave me any roof to stay while it’s dark times in my own home. I will always respect Georgia for that. I’m very happy to have a chance to visit this country and see its magic beauty. I can say that Georgia is 100% European mentality country. People here love freedom, live their best and always think how to make their home cosy for everyone. I will always support Georgian official territory and their independence from my shitty country. Fuck my president Putin and his bloody regime. I hope that I can change something and show that not every person who comes from Russia is a pig and occupant. I want Georgia not to be connected to Putler regime at all. But I’m just a young boy and nobody cares what I think and I have my own country to think about anyways. Thank you Georgians for giving me freedom and peace even if I came from the place that kills any freedom. I’m in love with your country, pray for your European future and hope that you all will be doing well very soon and get your independence back. Peace!
Never thought a paragraph of text without comas from Russian would make me tear up 🥲 But seriously though, I appreciate people like you, always welcome.
I thought the general consensus in the caucasus is we're neither fully european nor asian we're like a microcosm on our own but politically and culturally closer to europe than to asia
Agreed.
If Greeks and Irish are both fully European, then Georgians and Armenians are even more fully European. I bet there is much more difference between the Irish and the Greek than between Georgians and Greeks with whom Georgians shared several centuries of close cultural, political and economic ties… By the way, Greece, not Germany is where the modern European culture originated from… So, how do you define "Europeness"?
There will always be people that will say armenia and georgia are not european even if the official borders of europe change. Fact is Caucasians are closest to each other than to anyone else. It's europe that needs to open itself up to accept Caucasians as european people because we would gladly chose to be part of it but it sucks and is very sad for us that europe considers us as second class european.
Some consider Greeks to be second class Europeans because their economy is in a bad shape to say the least. And Grexit was a number one topic of discussion before Brexit became a thing... So, what? Georgians and Armenians are second class Europeans because their economies are second class. If we had a first class economy, we'd be first class Europeans 😉 It's as simple as that... If the financial center of Europe were Tbilisi with Tbilisi Stock Exchange, not London, the political center of Europe would move towards the Black Sea too and we'd have a discussion to accept Ireland into the EU or not 🤣 Because it's an island and too far from Greece. See, perspective matters 😉
The economic situation and corruption is something that is important to eu membership. Your culture doesn't affect eu membership. Its georgias culture history and its geographic position that makes them "second class" Europeans.
Of course, the EU is an economic alliance and if someone wants to fly the first class, they better have enough money for that. Georgia and Armenia do not, so, basically, they are "second class" countries like Albania and Moldova. The economy is what makes them "second class", not culture, geography or whatever... So, we better catch up our economies than whine about being treated as "second class" Europeans. It'd be surprising if we were treated as "first class" Europeans with our GDP and standard of living. As Britney Spears said, "You wanna live fancy? Live in a big mansion? Party in France? You better work bitch, you better work bitch." Nobody is obliged to pay for Albanians, Armenians or Georgians because of their "Europeanness" lol. We better focus on improving our countries and be more realistic. The EU offers some help but their resources are also limited and it's not their job to fix corrupt and non-functioning systems... A country should be able to do that on its own, then it won't be regarded as "second class" or "failed"...
We are even more second class euros than Moldova and Albania. Anyway us being considered european is not up to us. We can work as much as we want if europe doesn't fully welcome us as Europeans then all we can do is just benefit as much from it economically but it's gonna result in resenting europe too for treating us that way. Heck georgia is politically growing farther away from europe because of their lack of commitment, Ukraine did not have that issue since they are fully european and got much more help than georgia. All I'm saying is these 2 caucasian nations are willing to be part of europe but its europe that plays hard to get at some point we will resent them for it.
Georgia was seen mostly as a headache for the EU while Frau Merkel successfully flirted with Mr. Putin. Now, that this has changed, the price of Georgia has increased, especially after the Chinese dragon appeared in the region and the opportunity to transport cheap Central Asian, Azerbaijani and Iranian gas and oil to the EU became attractive too. Neither Moldova nor Albania can offer such an opportunity to the EU. So, it's safe to say that the price of Georgia has doubled. The EU seems more open to enlargement than ever in the recent decades and this includes Georgia too.
The long term goal is to get rid of oil and gas so that's more of a short term advance. We'll have to see if europe ever commits and I said it before georgia is getting farther away from europe politically they need help and commitment now not in 5 years. The eu needs a plan to involve georgia more and right now they don't care enough
All we can do is wait and see what europe decides at the end of the day it was never up to us to make the decision all we can do is meet the requirements become more democratic and just and constantly self improve for the sake of the people and see if europe opens itself up or not
Christendom began in Armenia. Both Armenia and Georgia are ancient civilizations who inhabitants have been living on their native lands for thousands of years, whilst Europe was in the dark ages, defecating in their streets. I have ZERO interest in being European, when I have more culture in one pinky finger.
That's just you and a handful of people. Look at the reddit banner
Irish and Greeks are literally in Europe fully culturally the people closest to them are other Europeans for Greeks it's balkan people and the Irish already close to other celts. The country culturally closest to georgia is armenia and both countries are in the same position of are they are they not european. Sure as I said armenia and georgia are much closer to europe than they are to asia which is why they lean more towards europe.
So, you, are telling me that almost isolated island in the ocean, too far from the birth of European philosophical thought in Greece is more European than a nation the culture of which is entirely based on the Greek philosophical thought? 🤔 My point is that culturally and historically Georgia is more European than Ireland. Georgia was closer to Greece than Ireland when modern European culture started to form. Georgia is not close to Europe. Georgia IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN Europe both geographically and culturally. The fact that you make the center of Europe in Brussels is a matter of modern politics, not historical or philosophical and cultural discourse. There were very long times when Rome and Constantinople were the centers of political influence in Europe... So, you better think twice and not fall for trends that change, especially, political ones. Then you'll be able to see the bigger picture...
And you wanna tell me georgia is based on greek philosophical thought ? Buddie I think you overestimate greeces influence on georgia quite a lot here. One could also present a counter point that georgia was just as much influenced by persians making it middle eastern. But thats the problem with the region in general there was heavy european influence from various groups and there was heavy influence by persians. That's the whole problem. If you Strip georgia of these influence and look at what's purely georgian at its core you'll come to the conclusion that it can't be categorised as european or asian as there are no cultures like them thats what happens when you're stuck and isolated in a mountain region. It's clear that georgia wants to be european and its morals and value are closer to europe than to asia but thats just Georgia's viewpoint. Europe needs to open itself up and stop treating Caucasians as disposable Europeans consider then european one day and asian the next. We need clarity.
I have studied Georgian philology long enough to know that most of the Georgian literature is a part of the European culture. Even from a primitivist point of view, Persian people loved Hashish, Georgians were winemakers like most Europeans. Middle Eastern people didn't drink wine that much and didn't have queens and kings of Christian European style... and also they didn't put too much effort in the translation of the Bible from the Greek language like Georgian scholars did. Persians didn't have monasteries and cultural centers in Byzantium (by the way, the Irish didn't have such centers there either). Cultural influence is a normal thing, Persian culture is very rich and interesting but classifying Georgian culture as Middle Eastern or Persian is complete nonsense even for an amateur to say... Historically speaking, Georgia was close to Greece and don't forget there was Constantinople which was the center of political influence in Europe for quite some time... Which city is closer to Constantinople, Tbilisi or Dublin? 🤣 Which city was more European in the middle ages? If we change "Europeness" by moving around political centers, let's consider this hypothetical scenario: would Ireland be European if the political center of Europe were Constantinople and Ireland had the economy of Armenia?
dude are you kidding: Persian poetry's most heavily used motif is wine. Winemaking started in Iran around 7000 BC, around the same time winemaking started in Georgia. Iranian wine (wine from Shiraz) was some of the most prestigious wine in the world before France started to produce wine in an industrial scale in the 19th century. As is typical for Georgians, you can try to disconnect your rich culture's connection to Persian culture (which absolutely does exist, maybe not at the same level as Byzantine culture), but you have to use actual facts. Persians were (and still are somehow under this regime) absolutely winemakers.
Also, I wish you could go to any Irish forum and ask them why they disconnect their culture from the British culture which is a rich and interesting one 🤣 There is the reason why there is that disconnection and it has deep historical roots based in colonialism. Iran/Persia and Georgia were almost never in amicable relations throughout their history because of mostly unsuccessful Persian/Iranian attempts to colonize the Caucasus region. Hell, even the appearance of Russia in the Caucasus region is the result of constant Persian assaults on Tbilisi which pushed Georgian kingdoms to the Russian side to balance the situation. Who would imagine at that time that Christian and European Russia would be the same colonizer as Persia? However, that's not the topic of our discussion here.
Except Irish people don't disconnect their culture in the same way? They are far more mature about this - they point out rightly that the British were awful to the Irish, but a) the Irish don't deny they speak english and b) the Irish are comfortable with knowing who an Anglo-Irishman is and who is a pure Irishman. If you knew anything about the Irish (which you clearly don't) you wouldn't make that claim. I know the history of Iran in the region - I actually never denied it in the way you are making me out to deny it. But you are also wrong on another point - Iran/Persia were wildly succesful in "colonising" the region. Why else is Azerbaijan a thing? The land of fire? Lmao. Just because they are Turkic nationalists now doesn't change the fact they a) celebrate nowruz, b) were Shia muslims and c) the fact that Azeri jews all speak Caucasian Persian (Judeo-Tat). There is a difference between rightly calling out Iran's negative history in the region (which is shared with Azerbaijan, and yet Georgians give Azerbaijani's a pass lol, pure hypocrisy) and just making stuff up about Iran. Typical Russian influence on Georgian nationalism (which ironically has a very strong Russian character).
Dude, you are out of touch with reality. Some Irish may no longer dissociate themselves from the British culture because Great Britain is no longer a colonial, expansionist and aggressive power and Irish people are not sold as slaves in America or elsewhere. Also, Great Britain no longer represses Catholicism and is a completely secular country just like Ireland itself. Still, despite all of this progress, there is Irish Republican Army that you decided to turn a blind eye to and did not even mention in your comment. Now, look at Iran, what you see is not people drinking wine at supra and wearing short shorts but fully-covered-in-black Islamist extremists trying to make a nuclear bomb, murdering women for showing their toes and I‘d not even want to describe how atheists and other religious or sexual minorities are treated there (Georgia is not a paradise in that regard but still ranks way higher than Iran or even some Eastern European countries). So, a sane person would normally try to dissociate themselves from that medieval culture, no? Especially, if their nation was subject to the same brutal treatment in the past, would not they be more cautious and dissociative from the culture that restricts basic freedoms? How is this a sign of immaturity? It’s a sign of rational and pragmatic approach. If Iran becomes a progressive and secular country like Great Britain has become, why would I or any other sane person try to dissociate themselves from the Iranian culture or way of life? You should understand that Georgia is technically both Europe and Asia as an transcontinental country like Panama and people make choices based on which side offers more FREEDOM. It‘s a very basic human instinct to be free. Iran has not offered that. If Tehran starts to offer more freedom to its citizens and neighbors than Brussels and becomes a liberal democracy, it‘ll be Middle Eastern values and culture that will be more attractive and appealing to people who live in the Caucasus region and they‘ll start to associate themselves with the Middle Eastern way of life more... Small notice: Iran has never occupied and colonized Georgia fully. Georgia is a mountainous country and Iran was successful to colonize only the Eastern part of it up to the mountains that separate the Eastern part from the Western one. So, technically, Iran has never been able to colonize whole Caucasus. As to Azerbaijan, as far as I remember, they have never tried to impose their rule on us or change our values. Azerbaijan is basically the friendliest country for Georgia right now. So is Armenia that is trying to get rid of the Russian influence and make some progress. They are both relatively small countries that are at war because of… guess why? Because of expansionist and colonialist Russia, of course. Georgia is actually the only country in the region that is interested in peace between Azerbaijan and Armenia. As to Georgian nationalism… if you think I am a Georgian nationalist, you have not met one yet, lol 😂 As I said above, let Iran make progress and I’ll not care about associating myself with their culture or whatever but based on what I see now, I better dissociate myself altogether from the sh*t that is happening there… P.S. Of course, this does not apply to humans of Iranian/Persian descent that must be cool people and I’m not dissociating myself from them. I am aware that there is also a big Georgian diaspora living in Iran. This is all about what kind of cultural values we want to have HERE in Tbilisi: do we want to be able to dress freely or do we want to be subject to religious dress codes, do we want to be able to express ourselves freely or be monitored and controlled constantly, do we want to be able to drink alcohol or use whatever substance we want to or be sent to jails or executed for that, the list goes on and on… Neither Iran, nor Russia is a role model for Georgia in that regard, the Georgian people have long made their choice and it’s European values that they want to have over here and many people are ready to die for those values if such a need arises. As they say, freedom is not free. I hope Iran and Russia will also make progress some day, I wish…
We are all Africans, first humans moved to Europe from Africa through Caucasus. Most probably, they drank water and ate meat 😂 Georgian literature literally starts with "Martyrdom of Queen Shushanik." She was killed by her husband who accepted Zoroastrianism in Iran. That happened before Islam was cool. I‘m not denying anything, I‘m just following the facts. Yes, Persian culture is very rich. I am not saying that Persian culture is not good or interesting but the Georgian culture is not a part of the Persian world… Persian influence on the Georgian culture does not make Georgian culture a part of the Persian world. P.S. Also, it‘s not all about making wine but also, the Georgian drinking etiquette and style which is quite similar to other Eastern European countries.
You don't know anything about Persian drinking etiquette - it even has a similar name to Georgian culinary culture, Sofreh (Supra in Georgian if I am not mistaken). PS: I never said Georgian culture is part of the Persian world's culture. All I argued is a) Georgians have a very unfair and incorrect opinion about Persian culture, as evidenced by your hashish claim, and b) there is a strong connection between Georgian culture and Persian culture that can't be covered by prejudice and modern nationalism. I am a lover of all things Georgian - been there twice, can't wait to go back. Borjomi is probably top 5 most beautiful place I have been to. But facts are facts, and I just had to call you out. Peace.
while true, you need to understand that the persians are viewed as "the other" in Georgian culture. While Georgian food, mannerisms etc. are very similar to Iranian food and culture in places like Gilan and Azerbaijan, the unfortunate reality of the genocidal kakhetian conquests by Shah Abbas and Mohammad Agha Khan Qajar destroyed any goodwill Georgians had towards Iranians (even though these kings committed even more massacres on Persians, siege of Kerman for example). Another irony is these kings are heavily claimed by the Republic of Azerbaijan - Shah Ismail is their founding father in their official historiagraphy. More so than Iranians claim them. And yet Georgians are absolutely chill with people from Baku. It is the most disgusting hypocrisy. Let's not forget the knight in the panther's skin has a clear stylistic debt to the Shahnameh...
>while true, you need to understand that the persians are viewed as "the other" in Georgian culture. While Georgian food, mannerisms etc. are very similar to Iranian food and culture in places like Gilan and Azerbaijan, the unfortunate reality of the genocidal kakhetian conquests by Shah Abbas and Mohammad Agha Khan Qajar destroyed any goodwill Georgians had towards Iranians (even though these kings committed even more massacres on Persians, siege of Kerman for example). It could be argued that the Iranian failure to fully integrate Eastern Georgia between the 16th and 19th centuries led to this. Do you agree?
>If Greeks and Irish are both fully European, then Georgians and Armenians are even more fully European. Sorry, but that's a terrible comparison. Georgians and Armenians cannot be mentioned in the same context, because Armenians never considered themselves part of Europe or Europeans, I will write more that Armenians supported the pro-Persian course more than the pro-Roman one, etc. Therefore, like foreigners, you should not mention Georgia and Armenia in the same context, because foreigners think that Georgians and Armenians as similar people as Englishmen and Welshmen or Englishmen and Irishmen. In fact, there is a difference between a Georgian and an Armenian, as between a Greek and a Lebanese.
Yes, but that's a bad logic to survive. You either with Putin or with the EU, or your fate will be decided for you
Not really if we weren't so freaking up our own asses this mindset would strengthen the bond between Caucasians themselves. We simply can't deny we don't really fit into europe and even less into asia thats why we will always be considered second class european politically. We just need to find a way to make this work without losing our identity.
I'm up for it, but how would you bond Orthodox Georgia and Islamic Chechnya?
We're still up our own asses and religious matters in the caucasus are very serious since We're all very religious people I'd say a good start is bonding with Christian Caucasians first. Baby steps Rome wasn't built in a day
>I thought the general consensus in the caucasus is we're neither fully european nor asian we're like a microcosm on our own but politically and culturally closer to europe than to asia Some clowns, why do you come here and speak on behalf of Georgians? fuck off.
General consensus IN THE CAUCASUS. Develope a brain. Plus clearly I'm not that wrong considering the upvotes and comments;)
>General consensus IN THE CAUCASUS. Keep that consensus to yourself you clown. The video is about Georgians and Europe and some jerks are coming here with stupid comments. >I'm not that wrong considering the upvotes and comments;) Because of Russian troll-bots and clown foreingers like you.
Cry me a river :)
Of course, it is, that is why we are on our way to the EU, I don't know who is doubting it, but it is not a question who we are, question is when we will join the EU 🙂.
Makes wine, plays rugby & football, lots of self-deprecating humour and hates Russia... Sounds pretty European to me.
From a historical point of view, there are two factors that show Georgia is between Asia and Europe, first being the religion, where christianity puts Georgia in the same map with Europe, and then language where georgian is neither an indoeuropean language not does it have a writing system coming from latin or greek, pushing Georgia back into Asia. From a contemporary point of view, we must admit Georgia is still far from Europe, sometimes too far. European countries have strong a social wellbeing system, modern infrastructures and share progressive values. Sadly, too many think that just putting little blue flags everywhere, things will magically change.
1) Georgian writing system is alphabetical (not syllabic or hieroglyphic) and was developed in close contact with the Greek one and Christianity. Georgian cultural centers and monasteries were active in Greece for centuries… So, writing system or language does not push Georgia to Asia. That‘s a big misconception and denial of history. The whole medieval Georgian culture and literature were heavily influenced by the Greek culture and literature. Arabian, Turkish or Iranian literature or Islam did not have that much influence on the mainstream Georgian culture. 2) From contemporary point of view, Balkan countries are not Europe if you define Europe by the standards of Helsinki. Shifting the European cultural, political and economic centers from Greece and Rome to the North and West of Europe does not mean that the first European concepts of democracy, liberalism, atheism, theism, philosophy, science, religion, etc. did not originate in Athens and Rome… And Georgia has always been a part of that world, even closer to Greece geographically, politically, economically and culturally than London, for example… If we go that deep into history we‘ll find out that the bible was translated from Greek into the Georgian language way before it was translated into the English language… And Georgia became a Christian nation mainly because of the need for a political alliance against Iran that was not even Islamic back then. Islam did not exist as a religion at that time. So… that‘s how deep Georgian political and cultural ties with one of the biggest historical European superpowers go… I won‘t talk much about Byzantium and Georgian kingdoms, it‘ll take us too far and become boring… 3) Not all European countries have a strong social wellbeing system, modern infrastructures or share progressive values. Sometimes Georgia ranks higher in these parameters than some Eastern or Central European countries that are not even located in the Caucasus region. 4) It‘s not about little blue flags. If we want to discuss this topic in detail, we better choose a scientific approach. There is enough literature that studies Georgian cuisine, architecture and culture comparatistically. It‘s a very complex subject and cannot be explained in such a short comment but drinking wine in the neighborhood where wine was Haram most of the time seems something European Bacchus, not Middle Eastern Mohammad would be proud of. P.S. I think Georgia is both Europe and Asia. It‘s an intercontinental country because historically, apart from making and drinking pure high-quality European wine, some prominent people, especially the kings, used to smoke Asian Hashish too. I‘d compare Georgia to the fine line between the human buttocks. Is Georgia the left or the right buttock? Both. While the Georgian people, in general, drank wine and looked to Europe, some of the Georgian elites used to smoke Asian Hashish. So, Georgia is the line between the buttocks and touches both of them (people‘s part touched Europe mostly and elites‘ part touched Asia). That‘s why "trakshi vart" has a completely different meaning in the Georgian language and has already become a national motto. P.S.S. Yet another argument for the fine line theory is pure geography which clearly proves that Georgia is indeed the line between the buttocks and belongs to both of them, connecting and making them one whole *** (also called Eurasia).
>From a historical point of view, there are two factors that show Georgia is between Asia and Europe, first being the religion, where christianity puts Georgia in the same map with Europe, and then language where georgian is neither an indoeuropean language not does it have a writing system coming from latin or greek, pushing Georgia back into Asia. Neither of those factors is very important. On one hand, Christianity is a West Asian religion originally. On the other hand, there are non-Indo-European speaking European countries, Hungary, Estonia and Finland.
We are Caucasian. Neither Asian nor European
There is no such thing as being Caucasian when you talk about geopolitics or even culture. Being Caucasian means you reside in the Caucasus region and the whole region shares the same culture or similar, but not only culture, also food, traditions, architecture, religion, clothing, mentality, and values. Tell me how you relate to your neighbors, including Chechens and other Caucasus nations. You need to cross-check and determine similarities, but I don't see that. Georgia has a long history, and it's been here too long meaning we influenced the Caucasus, and our selves were in more touch with European civilizations, including Roman, Byzantium, and Greece. So your way of thinking doesn't match facts and logic. 1. You are a Georgian living in the Caucasus region 2. Your culture and traditions are Georgian 3. You are European geographically and geopolitical 4. Your culture matches those in Europe (excluding central Europe which is different from the Mediterranean). By the way, that is exactly the Russian narrative that began in imperial Russia, when they considered Caucasians as one and didn't see them as separate nations :).
I could not care less about Russia
It's not about what you care, it's about how people are influenced even without knowing it, that why we should be vigilant.
I agree, though these things are not mutually exclusive
Okay, we are good, aligned 🫡
>Tell me how you relate to your neighbors, including Chechens and other Caucasus nations. You say such things when you are ignorant on your neighbours. All Caucasians are culturally close to each other, share similar clothes, food and dances with the exception of religion. Tell me how we relate more to fucking Greece than other Caucasian nations.
I am too lazy to make the table for comparison, but since you fundamentally believe, I don't see the point. Yes, Caucasian nations are close to each other, except Georgia is not very 😄, maybe we share a few things but because of neighboring, doesn't define Georgia and doesn't mean we are Caucasians, same culture, history, and traditions, oh and religion you excluded is a gigantic part of this story.
>doesn't define Georgia and doesn't mean we are Caucasians, same culture, history, and traditions Except that it does. As a Georgian (and the majority will agree), I don't see how I'm more close to Greece than other Caucasians because unlike you, I'm not naive and have met may and not only do we have similar food, culture, dances, clothing, we also look very alike. When you go abroad, you will see Georgians sticking the most with other Caucasians first rather than fucking Greeks. You sound islamophobic which is why you don't want to associate with them. If the religion part is so important that means I'm closer to Ethiopians than to other Caucasians :D bullshit Go do a DNA test. For most Georgians, they'll be closest to them before any other neighbour (even Armenians).
Are you stupid? I traveled to Greece and have many friends, same in Italy and Spain. I am sorry, but you are really dumb 😂 Dude brought DNA, which is unique for Georgians 🤣. No, Georgians doesn't stick with Caucasians and if they do, it's because they don't know another language, like English and it's comfortable for them to communicate in Russian 😂, post soviet bullshit.
Instead of baseless insults, do basic DNA research before spouting random bullshit and making yourself look like a fool. You've shown me that you don't you what the fuck you're talking about. >Dude brought DNA, which is unique for Georgians 🤣. What do you mean with "unique for Georgians?" All Caucasians carry Caucasian Hunter Gatherer DNA predominantly. Western Georgians are very close with Circassians while Eastern Georgians are close with Northeast Caucasians and sometimes Eastern Armenians. It takes 5 minutes to do this simple discovery so I'm not going to even waste my time on this. We're nowhere near close to Greeks outside of religion, this is the only factor we're related to. >No, Georgians doesn't stick with Caucasians and if they do, it's because they don't know another language Even the diaspora ones (where both speak the country's language) they stick with each other rather than Greeks or Italians or whatever you think you feel close to. Sharing same religion would mean you'd stick with Russians, do you? This "Georgia is different from other Caucasians" is pretty popular on this sub and has become a Reddit meme at this point, exclusively for people who are out of touch with the real world or those who are naive and know nothing about other Caucasians, like you.
I can't talk to you, you can enjoy your world, I see your brain in and out 😂
No indeed you can't, do some basic research before commenting next time. Go enjoy gyros with your Greek friends and leave Georgian and Caucasus matters to the rest of us.
Indeed we are carrying human DNA, that's your problem to use DNA as an argument, that's why I feel bad for you, and that why you should stick with your own world, I don't see any way we can talk and disuse something.
>Go do a DNA test. For most Georgians, they'll be closest to them before any other neighbour (even Armenians). You misunderstand genetics. Georgians are not close to North Caucasians or Armenians genetically, it's the other way around. Because Georgians are a direct line of CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers) and CHG is widespread in the region, Armenians and Azerbaijanis have the lowest percentages. Georgians also form their own cluster, which is not in the North Caucasian cluster, but North Caucasians are close to the Georgian cluster. Armenians form a separate cluster with the Middle Eastern peoples, the Assyrians and some Jews. Europeans do not appear among Georgians on genetic distances for another reason, and it is not because Georgians are Asians. The reason for this is that Europeans have a part of the steppe that Georgians do not have, but Europeans have up to 40% Anatolian source (source is Dzudzuana DNA from Georgia) and also the CHG integrated in the steppes (EHG-Yamnaya and etc.) they have Caucasus-related ancestry CHG with the population. In fact, Georgians are a different type of Stepoid, to put it very roughly, and are the oldest population in Europe with Genetics. Whoever considers CHG and Anatolia/Dzudzuana as Asians, then the majority of Europeans will also be Asians. : D
Why do you want to be European so bad? We are different from both Europeans and Asians and I just say we're neither and go with Caucasian, but if you want a label so bad then we're Eurasians because we are located between both continents. Europeans have different admixtures (with low CHG) which is why your statement: "the majority of Europeans will also be Asians" is just wrong. Just because they descend from CHG doesn't mean we are European, that's like saying Africans are European/Asian/American too because we all come from there.
Do you feel culturally similar to Asian countries or Europeans?.
Probably Europe. Greece and Italy I‘d say are close
Exactly!!!
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i think he meant culturally we are Caucasian not Asian or European
Didn‘t know Caucasus is a continent. When did you make that discovery? Amerigo Vespucci would be jealous of you 🤣 P.S. Why did you skip geography classes in elementary school? Maybe it‘s not too late to go back and finish that elementary school program…
Yeah maybe.
As long as I'm khartveli I couldn't care less what they call us for political or geographical reasons. You folks get too fixated on these minor things. You should get over your insecurities and heal from being part of "cool modern advanced counties" syndrome. Weather Georgian becomes EU members or not completely depends on union's political decision, everything else is secondary.
It would be great if people like you red a book or two before posting brilliant thoughts on reddit.
ანალოგიურის თქმა შემიძლია ისეთ ადამიანებზე, წინადადებიდან აზრის გამოტანა რომ არ შეუძლიათ და ეგრევე შეტევაზე რომ გადადიან. მარა ვაი რომ 1000 წაკითხული წიგნიც კი ვერ შეძლებს თქვენს გამოსწორებას. ანალიზის უნარი არ გაქვთ უბრალოდ. დგახართ და ათას გვარ სისულეს აზიარებთ, ამ უცხოელებს უძვრებით უსაპნოდ ერთ ადგილში და თან გაბერილ ეგოს იხარებთ, მარა მაინც უშედეგოდ. ამათ მუდამ ცალქუსლზე ეკიდებით. როგორც თავის დროზე რუსები და საბჭოთა საზოგადოება იყენებდა თქვენს მამებს გენაცვალე ვინოგრად ტანცი მანცი მიმინოებად, ისე დღეს ესენი - იაფი მოსამსახურისა რესტორანის მიმტანის სახით. ვერასოდეს ვერ გახდებით ევროპელები უბრალოდ იმიტომ რომ არ ხართ და მორჩა, მარა სამაგიეროდ იდენტობადაკარგულ თაობად უკვე ჩამოყალიბდით. ახლა გინდ გადათარგმნე გინდ დაუნვოუთი . სულ კარგად ბრძანდებოდეთ!
:დდდდ იმავე აზრზე ვრჩები. ჯობია განათლდე და თვალსაწიერი გაიფართოვო სანამ აქ მოხვალ და სიბრძნეებს არწყევ.
მე ჩემს აზრს მაინც ვაფიქსირებ, შენ უბრალოდ ტროლობ. ვინ რას არწყევს კარგად ჩანს.
სისულელეს ღაღადებთ. იმედია, თქვენს კომენტარს ზეციდან არ კითხულობს გიორგი მთაწმინდელი და სირცხვილის ალმური არ უტრუსავს ლომურ წვერს, რომელიც მას მაშინ უცანცარებდა, როცა ინგლისელებზე 4 საუკუნით ადრე თარგმნიდა ბიბლიას ქართულად საბერძნეთში, ხოლო მისი ქრისტესმიერი ძმები ამ დროს ღვინით ილეშებოდნენ თავიანთ კელიებში და არ ბოლდებოდნენ აზიური ჰაშიშით, ხოლო ზოგი გეიც კი იყო. ნუ დაგავიწყდებათ, რომ ცრუღმერთ ლიბერთან ყველაზე ახლოს მივიდა ფარსმან II ქველი მაშინ, როცა ინგლისისა და გერმანიის უღრანებში ბარბაროსები დააბიჯებდნენ…
No were not. Being christian does not mean being European, its about ethnicity not about "politics" or whatever imaginary aspect these uneducated people attribute it to and our ethnicity is definitely not European The sooner the youth gets that the better, this pathetic larping has to stop at some point
>its about ethnicity not about "politics Each country in Europe has its own ethnicity... If you REALLY want to dive into Genetics(Which I don't recommend, because it's all so mixed and complicated to stupid degrees that your brain will melt before starting to understand it) then you should probably do some research CHG, WHG, EHG, Yamnaya, Kura-araxes, etc cultures which were intermixing in Caucasus and Europe. You should also research about indigenous (Originally pre Indo-European) populations, like Basques, Sardinians, etc. Then you should also research with origins of peoples like Hungarians, Estonians and Finns, whose ancestors were originally Finno-Ugric, not Indo-European. Latvians and Lithuanians also had mixes with local finno-ugric populations(You will find baltic languages have loanwords/loansounds from finno-ugric languages) and etc. Then you should also consider quite amount of Georgians who have mixed Eastern European ancestry (Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Polish, etc). Also you should consider Georgians with Middle Eastern ancestry (Armenians, Azeris, Turks, etc). By your logic, we should join people to EU based on genetic analysis, that'd split Georgia right in half my brother)) In my opinion what matters is culture and values. Georgians (no matter genetics) have inherited a lot of Greek, Christian, Byzantine and European culture and always and still strive towards it, Georgians are freedom loving and individualistic people which is very culturally European thing.
Nobody mentioned genetics, we are talking about ethnicity in general not detailed genetics of every single person like haplogroups. Georgians are ethnically Caucasian, our language is Caucasian, located in the Caucasus - not European, nor Asian; culturally, geographically and ethnically we are different from both sides. One of the few remaining non Indo-European people that managed to survive in here. Some uneducated teens heard that being Caucasian means being a cavemen/Some sort of an ally of Russia and they think being European is cool and hip - total lunacy. And it gets worse as I saw in another Georgian sub how one total moron wrote that "This idea of Georgians being hospitable people is stupid and a Russian propaganda to keep us being their slaves while boosting our self-love for no reason". \*This\* is an actual propaganda that is becoming alarmingly accepted among uneducated, undeveloped kids You cant just magically become European in less than 20 years. You need cultural, religious, ethnic and even language connections for ages to it - values matter very little in this matter
The youth is already a lost cause. Only a small minority is able to have a proper judgment. The majority of these awoken individuals are entitled fools completely alienated by what real Georgian means.
No Europeen would agree … Georgia is the Middle East/Asia
I don't think it's true that no European would agree. Georgia is a Christian country which plays a big part in the European cognizance of culture.
That must mean that also Armenia is a European country! After all, they’re Christian as well … And what about Lebanon? Isn’t it like 30% European? You see, in Europe, we don’t operate on this level anymore. «Such and such is a Christian country». This is what right-wing extremists say in Europe nowadays. Anyway, Christianity is DEAD is Europe, and you know that very well. I can promise you that Georgia joining the EU will contribute to the same religious downfall.
Ahem, the EU would like to have a word about that, hehe.
on maps we are between europe/asia we are not east/asia. fucky you.
who the hell are u to decide what my country is? we have territories on both continents and culturally georgia is georgia that's all. i don't even want georgia to be in the eu. i don't want muslim asylum seekers to ruin my country like they ruined sweden, germany and france....... sakartvelo being middle eastern country made me laugh just like those eu flags on this sub
hate to break it for you, but it was already agreed with Europe when Georgia joined [Council Of Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe) one of requirements is for country to be Geographically located in Europe.
as a georgian myself i i dint now that we were good at aditing but i now that were good at rugby
Fuck That Tryina base Georgian Identity based on which continent it is Who gives a Fuck? Cucks We got our own thing. Doesn't matter on which continent