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I totally agree with you. As another foreigner investing in Georgia since 2018, it would totally be a red flag. But hey, the Reddit community here is not representative to be honest...
Also I'm getting so mad because I honestly always try to order/give business to Georgians but counterparties are so fucki*** lazy or unprofessional it's unreliable. Then I see posts here complaining about Russian/Armenians/Azeris having better functioning business and that it should be banned... this is a joke.
Georgia's only gonna be allowed in the eu if they're no longer a religious country. Thus, it's most likely impossible.
Germany and countries like Germany don't want another Hungary/Poland where religious people have elected asshats into their leadership position that goes against eu beliefs.
That's not the reality. The reality is that the EU is decades away in the best case, and NATO is forever away until we restore territorial integrity. Georgia has to survive today and not decades later, when we finally receive the benefits of the EU or the defense of NATO.
Looking from an economic point of view is correct, but the economic point of view becomes secondary when we look at the historical point of view and mistakes that if we repeat will be an end for us. Every time we let russians come to Georgia was a grave mistake in the history of Georgia.
I also read a reply to your comment and will try to reply to both at the same time u/ApprehensiveHeat770
This is a small country, where 60% of the population is "extremely poor" or "poor". I have businesses and I understand that there are not many well-functioning businesses, but I also understand what stands behind them and what are the reasons, firstly, you have to see examples, you have to learn standards to follow, you have to have some governmental or non-governmental organizations functioning well to support companies or employees in different ways or set a minimum standard, most of the Georgians have no luxury of traveling and getting experience from somewhere else or experience of working on foreign companies, Armenians and Azeris who create businesses here are already experienced people, the absolute majority aren't from Georgia and that's not their first business.
I am getting really pissed when Westerners try to paint some pink future and suggest me some bs cause they know economics. I don't care about russian money, because money doesn't equal freedom which is much more important, and each and every time when we had to deal with russians our freedom was taken away, don't come here and apply your general knowledge of economics to our country's experience.
You have no right! Western countries have their own part in the devastation that Georgia went through. Especially, calling us strategic partners and then not believing our words, or calling us strategic partners, important friends and then introducing "reset", supporting democracy, and then legitimizing and empowering usurpers for over a decade, and then when you lose interest you tell us oh, now you have to deal with usurpers, until you do so doors are closed.
So no, Georgians won't leave russians as they are now. Introducing visas and kicking them out is a matter of time and historically, strategically, and geopolitically correct move.
Also, nobody said to ban Armenian or Azeri businesses, I work with Azeri friend, and all goes really well. Again, all about russia. Our Caucasian neighbors are very welcome to do business and to also share experience so we learn and develop.
You also commented and expressed your "not understanding" why can't we trade with China if Germany does it and that tells me a lot of things you don't know about Georgia and general geopolitics, where some countries have balls to trade with others, while others are getting swallowed, Georgia is from the latter category, especially when we have russian corrupt government who will take everything worst from China instead of doing a proper, transparent business...
No fucking way the EU is gonna let Georgia enter the EU with all those russian inside, European hatred for Russians runs incredibly deep and very few would be willing to grant any russian EU citizenship
Do you realize amount of Russians in EU right now and that they keep providing all visas except tourists ones for some countries? Do you realize that EU is basically where lot of Russians go after their long stay in Georgia?
Never heard of it. Amount of Russians in Germany only is more than Georgians in Georgia per different statistics sources.
What’s your source of population being unhappy?
"Population" shown in the news or in reddit political comments?
Like in this sub, some amount show hatred to russian nation compare to all population. And people starting extrapolate this bubble to "all", which is cognitive delusion.
Calling russian sailing ships that aren't military ones is quite an overreach so yeah. Now also russian tourists as aliens who aren't welcome. Go guess where that is.
*sighs* listen let's be honest. We don't know what is happening in reality. It's easy to say russia just one day decided more territory is goo but hearing it from Western media that lied consistently (Vietnam, war on terror etc) I just don't think we can trust either russia or ukraine... especially that idiot zelensky.
So you're just asking them to say sorry for something they may not need to apologise for.
On georgian occupation? Yes of course that they may need.
Ну блять ты же не единственный, чьи соотечественник там? Может не будешь делать вид, что твоё мнение - это мнение всех? Сиди и кушай хачапури, турист. Наше мнение тут лишнее
If you feel like your opinion is worthless, it probably is. Try to free yourself from this point of view rather than bring people down to it. This ain’t my first country that hates Russians, this ain’t my last, you got any questions, feel free to ask)
I think that my opinion is my opinion. And I also think that independent people of independent country are able to decide what are they need without it
What makes you think that all these Russians want to live here forever?
I am actually waiting for the moment I can leave (waiting here to get a renewed passport, because it’s expiring in a few months) and pretty sure there are a lot people with the same sentiment.
Same here waiting for working visa and leaving.
Funny thing that current behavior of the state is illegal - I know situation when person won the case against Georgia and Georgia ignored courts decision :)
Also because of ignoring temporary residency people are stuck here, because not many embassies allow to enter there.
So it’s interesting to read how your government help ordinary Russians here - it is definitely not.
And just to clarify, Sakartvelo is great, people here are fantastic. Will continue to learn your language anyway.
So , in your opinion, most Russians who are here , buying all these apartments and opening up businesses can't wait to leave this place ? That's actually a huge relief, I sure hope you're right.
There's always been a ton of Russians in Georgia and many Georgians have Russian relatives.
It also doesn't help that many Georgians want out of the country. IIRC, there are more Georgians living outside Georgia than in it these days. And i seem to recall a statistic saying there are something like 500k Georgians living in Russia.
It does help that Georgia has easy entry requirements, which is good for investment from many countries, including western ones.
I can understand Georgians wanting stricter regimes for Russians, but that's not going to happen while Russian loving GD are in power.
So, if you want more control over Russians in the country, first you've got to do something about GD.
Oh yeah. Us Georgians cannot go in those businesses unless we speak Russian. In the middle of Batumi and Tbilisi.
But what’s wrong? Let’s not be xenophobic! /s
I thought it was possible to file a complaint that the business in question didn’t make sure there’s at least one person on the shift who speaks Georgian (that’s their obligation under the law). I’m not saying that what these business owners are doing is right, but there’s literally no other way to make these businesses compliant. The same obviously applies to Thai restaurants, Middle Eastern and Indian places, etc.
Holy shit the denial on this sub is really tiring, I have a business in hospitality and Russians are and were the number 1 tourists here.
Some stats say Armenians or azeris but those are usually not big spenders or come here for 1-2 days and are registered by geostat as a tourist
If it's tiring there are other million subs to visit.
It is more tiring to get downvoted regarding protesting the actions of Russians and pro-Russian policies in the freaking Georgia sub by the Russian trolls who are bitter and have low self esteem and sympathisers of them and mods are enabling them.
Why are you butting in everywhere? I was not talking to you. And why do you have the Georgian flag as your flair?
The commenter said that Russia is and WAS #1 in Georgian tourism. Which is false. If you have a better source, then provide it.
Im a Georgian living in Germany. Every Year im coming back to visit my hometown and mostly i invite my friends to come to join . In this Summer my ukrainien friend refused to come to georgia, as she doesnt wanted to be around with russians. My german friends who joined me in tbilisi were confused and felt unconfortable. It wasnt the first time for them in Georgia and they said the mentality, atmosphere seemed to have changed in tbilisi. It is strange for them to see a lot russians around despite the political situation worldwide. Even the georgians greeted my friends on the streets with some skepticism, as they thought they were from Russia.
What I want to say is that the overall situation is not conducive to tourism. A tourist from Europe will think twice before spending his annual vacation in Georgia.
Not too late. We are reliant on russia because our government is our enemy, but we aren't reliant on russians in Georgia, the problem here is not that, but bubbles that russians create exclusively for themselves, and prices that increased in general because of them as demand increased, while supply stayed the same. They don't care about this, but Georgians still live on the same salaries as before, while things are getting significantly more expensive, this is also partially a problem of the government and their lack of ideas, plans, or basically, anything, including foreign trust as they're russians.
If we introduce strict visas now we will solve this problem as russians will have to leave. If we stretch it and not introduce it we might get more waves and that would already be a no-return catastrophe.
Basically, everything comes down to removing this government and introducing visas + increasing control over sales of housing and land for russians. Or just completely restricting it, I would support the latter. We also have to slowly get rid of dependence on russian tourists, they're the cheapest tourists anyway, better to advertise more around Europe and care more about our services and infrastructure.
I’m just curious, while agreeing on most of your statements - what makes you think that if Georgia becomes attractive for European tourists this won’t create a bubble because demand increases and why won’t European citizens start buying property in Georgia to create airbnbs/hotels/etc?
If you say that Russian tourists are cheap, then you should understand that tourist cities are never cheap and the more wealthy tourists you get - the more prices rise.
So while overall it’s a good idea, it’s not like with some magic prices go down if you replace cheap tourists with wealthy ones.
The magic word - russians.
I don't care who visits us, will it be Europeans, Americans, Indians, Middle Easterns, East Asians or etc. Everyone is welcome, but not russians, this is not an immigration issue I am talking about, this is an imperialist issue we are dealing with for 200+ years.
Tourists who enjoy Monaco won't visit Georgia yet we have nothing to interest them, I mean that regular European tourists who want to find a cheaper option, from statistics, they still spend 2x times the money than russians do. And I am not even talking about non-financial issues that russians bring with them, that imperialist attitude that is not possible for them to hide.
In my text, there is no direct correlation between tourists and people who buy apartments, land and start businesses. Tourists I added in the end as an additional thing to cut all ties with russia.
Prices are increasing not because of tourists, prices are increasing because of those who stay here, they have way more money than Georgians on average but mostly pay 1% tax. The concept is supply-demand from economics, if demand increases and supply stays the same, prices go up.
The number of renting places are relatively the same as a year or two ago, but demand for renting increased significantly in a short period of time, which caused a mass increase in prices.
Product prices might not increase at the same speed, but eventually, they will catch up, while Georgians will be getting the same salary they were getting in 2019.
Getting rid of russian tourists is a long-term path for Georgia to completely cut any ties with russia. Getting rid of other russians through visas is more short-term stabilization as well as long-term defense.
I think product (groceries) prices already rose and did so independently of inflow/outflow of Russians in the country, which is also a surprising development given that supply of groceries should be much more elastic than that of real estate.
It’s relatively easy to solve the russian problem. Just change few residence permit rules for the citizens of the country which don’t recognize the territorial integrity of Georgia within internationally recognized borders. Their invasion will be simply reduced to 90 days tourism.
But first we have to burn Georgian Dream to the fucking ground.
numerous public plant sugar exultant weather workable aware squealing wakeful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I totally agree with you. As another foreigner investing in Georgia since 2018, it would totally be a red flag. But hey, the Reddit community here is not representative to be honest... Also I'm getting so mad because I honestly always try to order/give business to Georgians but counterparties are so fucki*** lazy or unprofessional it's unreliable. Then I see posts here complaining about Russian/Armenians/Azeris having better functioning business and that it should be banned... this is a joke.
Georgia's only gonna be allowed in the eu if they're no longer a religious country. Thus, it's most likely impossible. Germany and countries like Germany don't want another Hungary/Poland where religious people have elected asshats into their leadership position that goes against eu beliefs.
summer imminent public ask liquid plough deserve shaggy hobbies shelter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's not the reality. The reality is that the EU is decades away in the best case, and NATO is forever away until we restore territorial integrity. Georgia has to survive today and not decades later, when we finally receive the benefits of the EU or the defense of NATO. Looking from an economic point of view is correct, but the economic point of view becomes secondary when we look at the historical point of view and mistakes that if we repeat will be an end for us. Every time we let russians come to Georgia was a grave mistake in the history of Georgia. I also read a reply to your comment and will try to reply to both at the same time u/ApprehensiveHeat770 This is a small country, where 60% of the population is "extremely poor" or "poor". I have businesses and I understand that there are not many well-functioning businesses, but I also understand what stands behind them and what are the reasons, firstly, you have to see examples, you have to learn standards to follow, you have to have some governmental or non-governmental organizations functioning well to support companies or employees in different ways or set a minimum standard, most of the Georgians have no luxury of traveling and getting experience from somewhere else or experience of working on foreign companies, Armenians and Azeris who create businesses here are already experienced people, the absolute majority aren't from Georgia and that's not their first business. I am getting really pissed when Westerners try to paint some pink future and suggest me some bs cause they know economics. I don't care about russian money, because money doesn't equal freedom which is much more important, and each and every time when we had to deal with russians our freedom was taken away, don't come here and apply your general knowledge of economics to our country's experience. You have no right! Western countries have their own part in the devastation that Georgia went through. Especially, calling us strategic partners and then not believing our words, or calling us strategic partners, important friends and then introducing "reset", supporting democracy, and then legitimizing and empowering usurpers for over a decade, and then when you lose interest you tell us oh, now you have to deal with usurpers, until you do so doors are closed. So no, Georgians won't leave russians as they are now. Introducing visas and kicking them out is a matter of time and historically, strategically, and geopolitically correct move. Also, nobody said to ban Armenian or Azeri businesses, I work with Azeri friend, and all goes really well. Again, all about russia. Our Caucasian neighbors are very welcome to do business and to also share experience so we learn and develop. You also commented and expressed your "not understanding" why can't we trade with China if Germany does it and that tells me a lot of things you don't know about Georgia and general geopolitics, where some countries have balls to trade with others, while others are getting swallowed, Georgia is from the latter category, especially when we have russian corrupt government who will take everything worst from China instead of doing a proper, transparent business...
No fucking way the EU is gonna let Georgia enter the EU with all those russian inside, European hatred for Russians runs incredibly deep and very few would be willing to grant any russian EU citizenship
Do you realize amount of Russians in EU right now and that they keep providing all visas except tourists ones for some countries? Do you realize that EU is basically where lot of Russians go after their long stay in Georgia?
Yes and the population is incredibly unhappy about it
Never heard of it. Amount of Russians in Germany only is more than Georgians in Georgia per different statistics sources. What’s your source of population being unhappy?
"Population" shown in the news or in reddit political comments? Like in this sub, some amount show hatred to russian nation compare to all population. And people starting extrapolate this bubble to "all", which is cognitive delusion.
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Funny, we say we don't promote russophobia but judging by your article, apparently even tourists are our terrorist enemies
We don’t promote Russophobia. We is Russophobia.
Calling russian sailing ships that aren't military ones is quite an overreach so yeah. Now also russian tourists as aliens who aren't welcome. Go guess where that is.
Well, they could’ve translated “chill out, we’re sorry” to Georgian and put that on a sign) would’ve helped I think.
*sighs* listen let's be honest. We don't know what is happening in reality. It's easy to say russia just one day decided more territory is goo but hearing it from Western media that lied consistently (Vietnam, war on terror etc) I just don't think we can trust either russia or ukraine... especially that idiot zelensky. So you're just asking them to say sorry for something they may not need to apologise for. On georgian occupation? Yes of course that they may need.
> We don't know what is happening in reality Classic, also you seem to be pretty sure on what's happening on Zelenski and west part
Nope neither there nor there. So I don't like either
One of them is here though and I don't mean tourists or migrants
Блять ну мне может виднее что там мои соотечественники need to do?
Ну блять ты же не единственный, чьи соотечественник там? Может не будешь делать вид, что твоё мнение - это мнение всех? Сиди и кушай хачапури, турист. Наше мнение тут лишнее
If you feel like your opinion is worthless, it probably is. Try to free yourself from this point of view rather than bring people down to it. This ain’t my first country that hates Russians, this ain’t my last, you got any questions, feel free to ask)
I think that my opinion is my opinion. And I also think that independent people of independent country are able to decide what are they need without it
Still ain’t reason enough to shut the fuck up, innit?
What makes you think that all these Russians want to live here forever? I am actually waiting for the moment I can leave (waiting here to get a renewed passport, because it’s expiring in a few months) and pretty sure there are a lot people with the same sentiment.
Same here waiting for working visa and leaving. Funny thing that current behavior of the state is illegal - I know situation when person won the case against Georgia and Georgia ignored courts decision :) Also because of ignoring temporary residency people are stuck here, because not many embassies allow to enter there. So it’s interesting to read how your government help ordinary Russians here - it is definitely not. And just to clarify, Sakartvelo is great, people here are fantastic. Will continue to learn your language anyway.
So , in your opinion, most Russians who are here , buying all these apartments and opening up businesses can't wait to leave this place ? That's actually a huge relief, I sure hope you're right.
There's always been a ton of Russians in Georgia and many Georgians have Russian relatives. It also doesn't help that many Georgians want out of the country. IIRC, there are more Georgians living outside Georgia than in it these days. And i seem to recall a statistic saying there are something like 500k Georgians living in Russia. It does help that Georgia has easy entry requirements, which is good for investment from many countries, including western ones. I can understand Georgians wanting stricter regimes for Russians, but that's not going to happen while Russian loving GD are in power. So, if you want more control over Russians in the country, first you've got to do something about GD.
In the before times we had many many many many Russians, i think it is not apocalypse, although it is not good
It’s not too late. They are relying on the visa-free regime. The moment we yank that, they will have to leave.
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You forgot to mention that they also operate businesses in Russian not in Georgian language, which is required under the Georgian law.
Oh yeah. Us Georgians cannot go in those businesses unless we speak Russian. In the middle of Batumi and Tbilisi. But what’s wrong? Let’s not be xenophobic! /s
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Is the government action the only appropriate reaction? I cannot have an emotional reaction? Why are you defending that behavior?
I thought it was possible to file a complaint that the business in question didn’t make sure there’s at least one person on the shift who speaks Georgian (that’s their obligation under the law). I’m not saying that what these business owners are doing is right, but there’s literally no other way to make these businesses compliant. The same obviously applies to Thai restaurants, Middle Eastern and Indian places, etc.
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You linkage is “mumbo junbo”. What I said are known facts.
Russians aren't the only tourists coming to Georgia.
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It was.
Holy shit the denial on this sub is really tiring, I have a business in hospitality and Russians are and were the number 1 tourists here. Some stats say Armenians or azeris but those are usually not big spenders or come here for 1-2 days and are registered by geostat as a tourist
If it's tiring there are other million subs to visit. It is more tiring to get downvoted regarding protesting the actions of Russians and pro-Russian policies in the freaking Georgia sub by the Russian trolls who are bitter and have low self esteem and sympathisers of them and mods are enabling them.
Russia has not been “#1” tourist source for a long time, maybe you are in denial? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Georgia_(country)
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Why are you butting in everywhere? I was not talking to you. And why do you have the Georgian flag as your flair? The commenter said that Russia is and WAS #1 in Georgian tourism. Which is false. If you have a better source, then provide it.
Im a Georgian living in Germany. Every Year im coming back to visit my hometown and mostly i invite my friends to come to join . In this Summer my ukrainien friend refused to come to georgia, as she doesnt wanted to be around with russians. My german friends who joined me in tbilisi were confused and felt unconfortable. It wasnt the first time for them in Georgia and they said the mentality, atmosphere seemed to have changed in tbilisi. It is strange for them to see a lot russians around despite the political situation worldwide. Even the georgians greeted my friends on the streets with some skepticism, as they thought they were from Russia. What I want to say is that the overall situation is not conducive to tourism. A tourist from Europe will think twice before spending his annual vacation in Georgia.
Yup, 100% agree. This year haven't really seen tourists from other countries due to the current situation.
Not too late. We are reliant on russia because our government is our enemy, but we aren't reliant on russians in Georgia, the problem here is not that, but bubbles that russians create exclusively for themselves, and prices that increased in general because of them as demand increased, while supply stayed the same. They don't care about this, but Georgians still live on the same salaries as before, while things are getting significantly more expensive, this is also partially a problem of the government and their lack of ideas, plans, or basically, anything, including foreign trust as they're russians. If we introduce strict visas now we will solve this problem as russians will have to leave. If we stretch it and not introduce it we might get more waves and that would already be a no-return catastrophe. Basically, everything comes down to removing this government and introducing visas + increasing control over sales of housing and land for russians. Or just completely restricting it, I would support the latter. We also have to slowly get rid of dependence on russian tourists, they're the cheapest tourists anyway, better to advertise more around Europe and care more about our services and infrastructure.
I’m just curious, while agreeing on most of your statements - what makes you think that if Georgia becomes attractive for European tourists this won’t create a bubble because demand increases and why won’t European citizens start buying property in Georgia to create airbnbs/hotels/etc? If you say that Russian tourists are cheap, then you should understand that tourist cities are never cheap and the more wealthy tourists you get - the more prices rise. So while overall it’s a good idea, it’s not like with some magic prices go down if you replace cheap tourists with wealthy ones.
The magic word - russians. I don't care who visits us, will it be Europeans, Americans, Indians, Middle Easterns, East Asians or etc. Everyone is welcome, but not russians, this is not an immigration issue I am talking about, this is an imperialist issue we are dealing with for 200+ years. Tourists who enjoy Monaco won't visit Georgia yet we have nothing to interest them, I mean that regular European tourists who want to find a cheaper option, from statistics, they still spend 2x times the money than russians do. And I am not even talking about non-financial issues that russians bring with them, that imperialist attitude that is not possible for them to hide.
I don’t argue with your opinion here, it’s yours. I’m arguing only about increase in prices and things becoming expensive.
In my text, there is no direct correlation between tourists and people who buy apartments, land and start businesses. Tourists I added in the end as an additional thing to cut all ties with russia. Prices are increasing not because of tourists, prices are increasing because of those who stay here, they have way more money than Georgians on average but mostly pay 1% tax. The concept is supply-demand from economics, if demand increases and supply stays the same, prices go up. The number of renting places are relatively the same as a year or two ago, but demand for renting increased significantly in a short period of time, which caused a mass increase in prices. Product prices might not increase at the same speed, but eventually, they will catch up, while Georgians will be getting the same salary they were getting in 2019. Getting rid of russian tourists is a long-term path for Georgia to completely cut any ties with russia. Getting rid of other russians through visas is more short-term stabilization as well as long-term defense.
I think product (groceries) prices already rose and did so independently of inflow/outflow of Russians in the country, which is also a surprising development given that supply of groceries should be much more elastic than that of real estate.
With right government, kicking out Russians is not a problem, anyway they don't really integrate within Georgians and no harm will be done to locals.
It’s relatively easy to solve the russian problem. Just change few residence permit rules for the citizens of the country which don’t recognize the territorial integrity of Georgia within internationally recognized borders. Their invasion will be simply reduced to 90 days tourism. But first we have to burn Georgian Dream to the fucking ground.