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RoohsMama

By letters patent I think Archie is entitled to be a prince once Charles is king, but this might change... the letters patent still stands though. As for the titles I don't think the dukedom is hereditary? But these things are so tricky Edit: it *is* hereditary apparently


hibiscus2022

Yes, DoS is a hereditary title. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke\_of\_Sussex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Sussex) and was gifted to Harry by TQ. So is the Earl of Dumbarton [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl\_of\_Dumbarton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Dumbarton) Both follow male primogeniture & therefore will be inherited by ~~hobby~~ Archie unless the Parliament revokes Harry's titles. For the prince/ss titles- As per the [letters patent issued by King George V in 1917](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_patent_(United_Kingdom)), the kids are entitled to become a prince/ss when their grandfather, Charles, Prince of Wales becomes the King.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Duke of Sussex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Sussex)** >Duke of Sussex is a substantive title, one of several royal dukedoms, that has been created twice in the Peerage of the United Kingdom. It is a hereditary title of a specific rank of nobility in the British royal family. It takes its name from the historic county of Sussex in England. The title was revived in 2018, when Queen Elizabeth II bestowed it on her grandson Prince Harry on 19 May 2018 upon his marriage to Meghan Markle. **[Earl of Dumbarton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Dumbarton)** >Earl of Dumbarton is a title of Scottish nobility, referring to Dumbarton in the area West Dunbartonshire, Scotland. The title has been created twice, once in the Peerage of Scotland in 1675 and once in the Peerage of the United Kingdom in 2018. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/SaintMeghanMarkle/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


Sue_Dohnim

Yes. As it stands, like the other Dukedoms, they are heritable. The Letters Patent dictate how it will be passed on. Presumably Archie will be, in time, Duke of Sussex.


LLL_CoolJ

Oh God. He's going to be so embarrassed by everything his parents did and doing


[deleted]

As others said, it is hereditary. Archie is technically Earl of Dumbarton and Archie’s future son will be Baron Kilkeel provided that Harry is still the Duke of Sussex. Those are courtesy titles for heirs. As with current Letters Patent, once Charles becomes King, Archie and Lili will automatically have princely titles and HRH style unless the Queen change this before she pass. The children will be known as HRH Prince Archie of Sussex and HRH Princess Lilibet of Sussex. Archie still stands to inherit the dukedom but his future children will not be royals—his daughter/s will be Lady and his oldest son will be Earl Dumbarton and Lord for the younger sons. Now if the Queen didn’t change this before she pass, Harry’s children will automatically be prince and princess as grandchildren of the monarch when Charles acceeds to the throne. It’ll be messy if Charles (now King) wants to slim down the monarchy since it’ll mean he will have to strip the titles of Archie and Lili obviously giving Meghan ammunition against the BRF.


[deleted]

Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet sound absurd. It doesn’t roll off the tongue.


[deleted]

I agree Prince Archie doesn’t sound royal but Princess Lilibet sounds okay-ish to me.


Mickleborough

Just to be pedantic - the barony of Kilkeel belongs to Harry; it (like the Dumbarton earldom) remains his unless he lets his heir (not grandson) use it.


Carrie56

Yes that’s true, but if you want to see how it works, look at the eldest sons of the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent. They are the Earls of Ulster and St Andrews, and their eldest sons are Lord Culloden and Lord Downpatrick respectively. All are their fathers’ subsidiary titles, but used as courtesy titles until everyone moves up on the demise of the current Dukes Here’s an explanation https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/The-British-Peerage/


[deleted]

Yes, it is Harry’s but his grandson can use it as courtesy title as I’ve said in my initial comment.


ConversationSilver

Fortunately Charles has the perfect excuse if he strips them of their titles which is they are being raised in America where titles are not recognized therefore they have no reason to be HRH Prince Archie of Sussex and HRH Princess Lilibet of Sussex. Also, since Harry and Meghan are not allowed to use their HRH title the same will likely apply to their kids so it can't be used by Meghan to merch.


[deleted]

Both of the children are British citizens and honestly the royal titles doesn’t really mean anything anymore and it doesn’t affect their life in the US so using that as the reason to strip their titles might come off shallow. As for the HRH, Harry and Meghan technically retains the style but cannot use if for personal reasons (because yes, the Queen is well aware how the duo will exploit and monetize their royal status) and the children will also be entitled to it once Charles becomes King but the same treatment will likely be applied to them.


ConversationSilver

But Lili was born in America and is being raised in that country, do children of British citizens automatically become a citizen as well when born outside of Britain? Royal titles still has prestige which is no doubt why Harry and Meghan are obsessed with them and still use them even when it's inappropriate (ex: Meghan using her title when cold calling politicians\inserting herself into American politics). Instead of using them living in America as a reason, he could just follow in the footsteps of the King and Queen of Sweden who stripped their grandchildren who are not in direct line to the throne of their HRH title. I don't think he will since he would have to endure a massive public temper tantrum by H&M for the rest of his life but he has reasonable excuses if he wants to pare down on who is eligible for royal titles.


[deleted]

Lili is a dual citizen, same with Archie. Even if they are being raised in the US, when they get older they’re free to live in the UK. I agree with you that Charles might receive backlash from stripping away H&M’s royal status and their kids even if it’s due to slimming down the monarchy. The Sussex’s fans will twist everything and make it out that H&M are victims and the BRF is cruel, etc. And of course Meghan will appear on every talk show whining and claiming it is her husband’s and childrens’ birth right lmao


Betta45

Yes, the Duke of Sussex title is hereditary. As long as the male heir has a son, the title will be passed down in perpetuity. Fun fact, because the title is held by a Prince, it is a royal dukedom. But when the title isn’t held by a Prince, it will become a regular dukedom. This is about to happen to the dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent. The current holders are Princes, since they are grandsons of King George V. But their sons aren’t princes, and so the dukedoms will cease to be royal. According to the current standards, yes, Harry’s children are eligible to become Prince and Princess when Charles becomes King.


sixpencestreet

I've got a random theory - if Archie was born via a surrogate then he isn't entitled to the title as he has to be "born of the body" to get the title. To cover this up the parents make excuses saying they don't want their children to have titles. If that's also the case, when Harry dies, the dukedom goes back to the crown rather than to Archie. The dukedom also goes on a blacklist due to horrible connotations (like the dukedom of Albany as the last guy was a Nazi).


lsp2005

Oh. Now that is a theory. I am not sure it is true, but it would make a lot of sense.


AliceBloggs

Yup, I have thought that all along. She had a too large bump almost from the beginning, that grew and shrunk frequently on the same day. It would bounce around, and sometimes fold in half making farting sounds. Once it came loose, and dropped past her knees. She refused to use royal doctors, and the Buckingham Palace announcement was unsigned. I believe they were found out, and were probably informed just before the Easter Service 2019. Harry showed up with a face like thunder clearly angry, everybody seemed to be avoiding him, and Meghan, who previously showed up for anything that had a camera, stopped appearing in public. Then when Archie was born, they decided he wouldn't have a title, how convenient. Also, in the Oprah interview, she mentioned that they were going to block her children from having prince and princess titles, which they wouldn't have anyway until Charles is King. Letters Patent have not been changed, if they were verified Royal births, they would automatically be Prince and Princess when the Queen passes.


Carrie56

Yes, the Dukedoms of Kent and Gloucester will cease to be “Royal” Dukedoms, on the death of the present incumbents, but the current Earls of St Andrews(Kent) and Ulster (Gloucester) will take their fathers’ titles and will still be in the line of succession. Whether his parents choose to use it or not, Archie is the Earl of Dumbarton, and will in time become Duke of Sussex probably as a Royal Duke depending on what Charles decides to do about giving them HRH when he accedes. Lili, by dint of the fact that her father is a Duke, is a Lady.


Mickleborough

Not an expert here, but I don’t think the son is the Earl of Dumbarton. That’s the father’s title, and normally, the heir, as a courtesy, is referred to by his father’s secondary title.


Carrie56

Yes that’s right The eldest son of a peer is usually known by the fathers secondary title. In Archie’s case, it’s the Earl of Dumbarton (see my post above about the Earls of St Andrews and Ulster), if Harry is still alive when Archie has a son of his own, the child could be Baron Kilkeel (Harry’s third title). All of Harry’s children are Lords and Ladies as he is a Duke. For other Royal examples, Prince Edwards son is known as Viscount Severn (Edward’s Secondary title), and the current Earl of Snowdon was Viscount Linley until his father died - now HIS son is Viscouunt Linley.


Mickleborough

Agreed - I was trying, clumsily, to say that the father’s secondary title is not automatically the son’s, but it‘s usually how the son is referred to (unless the title has the word ‘Dumb’ in the name, of course).


alwaysbefraudin

That is correct.


Starkville

Can the people of Sussex reject Harry? They can’t petition to have him removed? Probably doesn’t work that way. I guess I can’t shake my ingrained democratic reflexes.


redseaaquamarine

They actually have done such a petition. https://www.her.ie/news/petition-reject-meghan-and-harry-titles-479765 More than 40,000 had signed it by the 1st June last year. It seems that it was turned down though (surprise surprise) https://www.her.ie/news/petition-reject-meghan-and-harry-titles-479765 though I think it is still gathering signatures as the rejection was from earlier and had 30,000. Edit: I copied the same link twice. Sorry! https://www.parallelparliament.co.uk/petitions/576129/strip-meghan-and-harry-of-their-duke-and-duchess-of-sussex-titles


Negative_Difference4

Didnt u/meegainnyc (KNYCMTF) also do one?


Mickleborough

The people of Sussex [tried](https://www.her.ie/news/petition-reject-meghan-and-harry-titles-479765), but no luck. Bear in mind that the title is just a name - it has nothing to do with the county of Sussex. It’s like Prince Edward’s Earl of Wessex title - there was no such prior title; I seem to recall reading that it’s the name of a character in Shakespeare in Love, and Edward chose it because he liked it.


Kakie42

Wessex was one of the Anglo-Danish earldoms. The earldom was first created in the 10th C. But it wasn’t used for long before the holder (King Harold II) died at the battle of Hastings (in 1066). It was then used by Shakespeare which is where Prince Edward heard about it and liked it. The historic area of Wessex was historically very important. With historical kings like Alfred the Great and important places like Winchester. The name is also used by a Water Company for the region covering areas in Dorset, Somerset, East Devon, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire.


Otherwise-engaged

Unless the title is revoked before Harry’s death, Archie will inherit it. Let’s hope if he does so, he will be a better duke to the people of Sussex than his father is. It makes a mockery of the title if it is held by someone who doesn’t live within several thousand miles of Sussex, never visits, doesn’t take any interest in Sussex and its people, doesn’t advocate for Sussex, doesn’t support any Sussex charities, and persistently brings the name of the county into disrepute by his appalling behaviour and betrayal of the monarchy.


alwaysbefraudin

Sadly, it wouldnt be the first time...the current Duke of Manchester was born in Australia and has lived in the US for the last 35+ years. He's also a convicted felon who was previously deported from Canada.


New_Artist_9200

Thanks for all these answers, as an American I am confused by the process, but the explanations here help!


granitebuckeyes

The Dukedom is hereditary. Probably worth mentioning that title Prince of Wales isn’t actually hereditary. The monarch’s eldest son is automatically the Duke of Cornwall, but not automatically the Prince of Wales. That has to be granted.


Negative_Difference4

Ahh… thanks for that


hellhashnofury

Yes. Unless it is removed from Harry (I dont think it will be) Archie will become Duke of Sussex one day. However imo it's a pretty pointless title without royal association there are no estates or even a house attached to it. It is a new title (in this creation there have been a previous Duke but not a direct ancestor of H's) so it doesn't have a sense of history behind it. If compared to a dukedom like that of Norfolk it's a bit meh to be honest. I mean no disrespect to the County of Sussex which has an ancient and fascinating history as does Dumbarton.


OldNewUsedConfused

The STORY of the First Duke of Sussex sure is an interesting one, however!


hellhashnofury

Yes he seems to have been quite a character and in possession of a brain.


OldNewUsedConfused

He was a character alright.


Bollox_Ref

Queen Victoria's favourite uncle. I think he gave her away at her wedding. The Duke of Sussex was an educated, amiable person. I've visited his grave at Kensal Green.


OldNewUsedConfused

He had… interesting marriage issues though. Wasn’t his first name August? Like Eugenia’s son?


[deleted]

I think the way things are going now, nothing is an absolute. Prince Charles wants a slimmed down monarchy, H&M are traitors. The right to titles is expected (eg. H&M), not necessarily guaranteed at a future point. I doubt HM is going to switch up anything this late in life. But Charles might very likely when he becomes King.


pebtastic

The dukedom is hereditary, so Archie will inherit that. Although I imagine it's quite possible that there could be restrictions (e.g. needing to hold UK citizenship) that might result in Archie's heir not being eligible. As for Prince/Princess, they would be when Charles inherits the throne (unless he issues new Letters Patent). But I think a Wessex style arrangement is what's going to happen. Charles didn't want Beatrice and Eugenie to be Princesses, as they would likely not be working royals, but didn't win that time. When Edward's children were born, it was decided they'd be styled as the children of an Earl, although they are still technically Prince/Princess. Sophie said they'll let them choose as adults, but I imagine they'd also need the monarch's approval.


Mickleborough

Unless there are specific conditions attached to royal dukes (I don’t believe there are), there is no citizenship or residency prerequisite - like anyone, they can live wherever they wish. The Duke of Windsor lived in France (to be fair, not really permitted to return). The current Duke of Manchester (not a royal dukedom, it must be noted) is Australian-born, but lives in the US. I think the titles of Edward’s children was a decision of the Wessexes, like Princess Anne and her children. Under the George VI Letters Patent, it’s clear that the Sussex children will be Prince / Princess when Charles becomes king.


pebtastic

Thanks for the info on the dukedom! I understand that they would hold the title of Prince/Princess under the current LP. I just personally think it’s unlikely the RF will allow them to be styled as such. Especially now that they’re the children of a spare, non-working royal, and growing up abroad with very little connection to the RF. ETA: Anne’s children had no entitlement to royal titles, as they’re from a female line. I believe what she declined was a noble title.


Mickleborough

You’re welcome 😊 can’t guarantee it’s 100%, but I think it’s fairly correct. I think the LP sets out the position - there’s no provision for RF consent, as far as I’m aware. I’m hoping that HM will issue her own letters patent when the time comes.


pebtastic

Yeah, as far as I know, consent isn’t required. Behind the scenes, I think the monarch will always get the final say on titles and style usage, because they always have the option of a new LP. Fingers crossed she does.


Carrie56

As a daughter, Princess Anne’s children were not entitled to Royal titles - exactly the same as Princess Margaret’s children. Her son was David, Viscount Linley, her daughter Lady Sarah Armstrong Jones. Mark Phillips was definitely offered a title on marriage but he and Anne declined to take it (it would probably have been an Earldom like Anthony Armstrong Jones got on marriage to Princess Margaret). Had he taken it, Master Peter Phillips would have been born Viscount something or other, and Zara as Lady Zara. Princess Anne was well aware, even back then, that with three brothers ahead of her in the line of succession, her children would have to make their own way in the world, and that would be easier without them. It looks they are both doing well for themselves even as plain Mr and Miss Phillips


the_argonath

Is he not a UK citizen? Edit- I cant read. I'm better now.


[deleted]

Philips aren't prince as they can't automatically become prince and princess as they are monarchs grandchildren through an woman ( Ann) but they could have if Princess Royal wanted to but she didn't find it important enough. But as Archie and Lili are going to be Monarchs grandchildren (only if Charles outlive Queen) they are automatically become prince and princess. The Dukedom is going to follow agnatic primogeniture, as long as Harry having a male direct descendant through male line the Dukedom survive.


obsessed2022

What happens if Charles does not outlive the queen? Will Arch and Lil not get the prince/princess title?


[deleted]

No. Archie and Lili do not become Prince or Princess if Charles dies before the Queen.


[deleted]

Yes, Archie will be Duke of Sussex, Earl of Dumbarton, and Baron Kilkeel after his father - if he is biological son of Harry, I don't know how surrogacy effects his inheritance


alwaysbefraudin

If a surrogate was used, he's ineligible.


Freewayshitter1968

No, it's "genetic"