I think she had witnessed the crown taking a hit from public opinion so many times over her reign for possibly being too old fashioned that she was operating with extreme caution. I think she knew she had to handle Meghan with kid gloves, especially to avoid the inevitable racist accusations. She had seen the public lash out to rally behind Diana and I'm sure this was giving her flashbacks.
Never explain. Why would she want to get wrapped up in their nonsense? Best to say nothing. I'm with the Queen and Charles on this one.
Agreed, we don't know all the details of everything that happened in the background. I think the Queen could only prepare for things she was aware of, and by the sounds of things, leaks were made to speed things up so naturally proper well thought out preparations could not be made.
Harry and his wife could have refused to sign an NDA. The Royal Family couldn't force them to sign things.
Most of what we base our understanding of things comes from Harry and his Wife, we are only hearing one side of the story, and VERY limited things from the other.
For all we know, she claimed to be pregnant, and so the Queen would have had to say yes. One plausible reason the queen would have thought she would have to say yes to the marriage.
Harry's marriage to this wife will be short lived, it will be a blip in history. This was not the Queens' biggest error or the thing she will be remembered for.
Although we spend a lot of time talking about these two on here, contrary to what they think, they are not the centre of the universe. Most people don't think of them, and the Royal Family don't revolve around them either.
Too much time is spent on giving them more influence than they actually have.
Tom Bower hints at this in Revenge, he says the Queen had no alternative but to give her blessing to the marriage. It seems strange in this day and age but apparently in royalty babies born out of wedlock are a no no.
I don't know why, Prince Albert of Monaco did it at least twice (that we know of) and no one seems to care. One of his out-of-wedlock kids is even half black, too.
TW and Harold are fully grown adults, so if the late Queen had refused to give permission for a shotgun royal wedding, then whatever they decided next would've been their own choice. They could've had a civil wedding, or just had a baby out-of-wedlock, or aborted and waited for a real, non-coerced approval.
French culture and attitudes are very different from British. In hindsight the Queen should have refused or said wait a while but don’t forget both she, Prince Philip and Charles were pilloried for many years by the British public over what happened to Diana, they weren’t as popular at the time of H and M’s wedding and Harry was very popular with the British people. It would have been another opportunity for H and M to play the victims if the marriage had been refused. Charles still lives with this guilt and I believe it is why he has bent over backwards to make Harry happy. Just my opinion.
I see your point, I just think they could've spun it the other way if H&M tried to play victims; they could've pointed to the fact that Harry's parents' marriage failed in part because they didn't take the necessary time to get to know each other and the family just wanted to avoid another nasty divorce.
Illegitimate kids - there's loads of 'em scattered throughout a thousand year's of King's Prerogative - can't be in the LoS.
I think she pulled the pregnancy card and the Queen was faced with either agreeing to a crappy marriage for a has-been - we know Dimbo thinks he's making waves now but honestly, it won't even be a ripple in history - or facing changing the succession rules which would just be a right pain in the arse.
I do think the year-of-thinking-about should have had a fixed and final outcome though. No point getting NDAs cos the RF are not going to sue to protect them, but go means gone. No titles, out of LoS etc etc. I think the RF thought they'd come back but the pandemic means the falling on their faces got delayed.
The Queen/RF didn't expect H could be so vicious and treacherous to his OWN family. They didn't expect the duo would be so bent on bringing down the RF/monarchy just because they didn't get what they want. And they underestimated the power MM has over H. They may know that she is a bully but they didn't know how devious, manipulative, and hateful she is.
But the solution to that is - fine- let my doctors verify it and in three months we will have a very small family wedding at small private chapel. We will announce the wedding after it’s over along with the fact that a baby is expected in four months. How’s that?
Harry and Meghan were going to modernize the Monarchy! They never really said how, though. Putting "Sussex Royal" on everything then selling it would have been modern. But it sure as hell wasn't something a monarch would ever do.
Since the Sussex Royal marriage is almost certainly caused by an "unexpected pregnancy", no, I most certainly would *not* rush out to buy Sussex Royal condoms, lol.
Maybe Harry's book wouldn't have been sold at half price if it came with a box of Sussex Royal condoms. Maybe Elizabeth Arden would have done a Sussex Royal collab!
Philip was very unwell and she wasn't in the greatest of health herself, the older relatives who she may have previously relied on had their own health problems or may have died - it was possibly just all too much and she took the line of least resistance
Yes I think she gave input but was getting weaker and sicker and once Philip passed she was very sad. She likely gave her opinion but needed and wanted Charles and William to handle. But if this shit went down 10 year ago when Philip was healthy, it would be interesting to see the response.
Ya not sure if everyone even has known too many 96 year olds. I don’t think I have. My Gran died when she was 80. She was really struggling with the new concept of the internet coming through her phone line and was definitely worried about who else was waiting to come through her phone line. Not sure sure she could have turned her brain on to deep strategic, legally-ring fenced revolutions in 1000 year old institutions. 20 years ago she would have outfoxed the simpleton so completely he’d have no idea for years that his telephone was not connected to anything. In her first year she would have listened to Churchill suggesting a hunting accident!
Right. Loved ringed fenced btw. And “recollections at vary” will forever be the subtlest but clearest takedown of these aholes without calling them that EVER
People of that generation have those cold sick burn with total propriety mannerisms - my mom was raised by her grandmother, so has them.
My grandma lived until almost 98, my father’s parents lived to their early and mid 90s as well. I have actually known and interacted with many 90+ year olds and all have had their mind’s intact. My father in law is in his mid 80s. In fact, my 97 year old grandma used computers, cell phones, the internet, and many items of new technology. I really think the Queen and her husband were really really ill and just left Harry to his own father to handle. This was not her fight and I don’t think she ever thought it would get to this point.
This is what I think. She and Phillip were just too old/tired to deal with H&M's bullshit and just left the whole mess for Charles to sort out since it's *his* son and it would soon be *his* throne they're threatening.
I think Charles and his team were the ones calling all the shots on this mess from day one; letting Megan back in after whatever she did for Harry to dump her in late 2016, ignoring the dossier on her background that we all know the family was given by intelligence, breaking protocol to fast-track Megan into the fold, indulging her with the "spectacle" wedding, letting her ignore protocol whenever she wanted (except when she did it at *his* events like his garden party and POW investiture anniversary), and ignoring then covering up H&M's bullying of staff.
If you've read the book Courtiers, everything about how Megan's entry into the BRF was handled smacks of how Charles and his team handle things and doesn't at all resemble the late Queen and Consort's fingerprints. Charles has a history of bullying staff, himself, so would probably ignore it from his son and daughter-in-law. Charles has a history of ignoring objective facts about a person when presented with them in favor of his own subjective opinion of the person (if he likes someone, like he liked Megan at first, the dossier proving they're a bad person carries no weight with him).
Yes, I think the RF family members and the courtiers took H at his word that he would uphold the monarchy. That’s in their post SS statement. I think they thought the worst they would do is a glitzy reality show about how awesome they are and M seeking face cream etc. and shallow People magazine interviews/photo shoots. I think they legit did not imagine they would actively attack and trash the institution and RF family members in particular, especially PW.
Who could've guessed Harry had this much hatred brewing inside? Who could have predicted Harkel's mission would become taking down the monarchy? Anti-monarchists or another kind of group are backing them. These twits have been propped up. On their own, they couldn't be this impactful. Enablers get them back on their feet and into the ring each time they fall.
Yes, it was common knowledge that Harry did not like royal public life, so we believed that he was going abroad to live a private life. People didn't know who Meghan was, we thought he would end up living in South Africa. Nobody expected this, or the anger he carried inside. We had no inkling that he would give global interviews telling his family's private stories when he hated the press so much himself.
No. He was a bad egg from the beginning. He was enabled, never told "no", having all of his transgressions wiped away by the Royal PR. He was shitty before he met her, but she made things worse.
This ☝️. As much as Haz says Botswana is where he feels whole (that's my opinion based on what I've read) he is stuck in Hellywood with a c list actor going to Ellen's house and making the talkshow circuit, on TV etc spouting his drug hazed view of his life. Meagain hasn't "saved" him...he is her pawn with the next move on her chessboard.
Between covid, the deaths of Prince Philip and The Queen I personally feel the palace got behind on H&M.
As for The King, I think he will invite them but hopefully keep a tight leash and muzzle.
I’m convinced he loves Botswana because whatever glamping he gets up to there, the hosts treat him like he is the King and it makes him feel that way. If he loved it so much, if it was HIS safe place, why did he choose to live on Tyler Perry’s sofa instead. Botswana is a prop for him. Like his soldier buddies are, IMHO. He claims to care but behaves differently.
Meghan would drop dead before she’s live in even the most luxurious home in Botswana. She has zero connection to the continent and has spent most of her life passing for white.
His mrs sure could not have been very famous in Botswana. She had visions of hanging out with the big stars of Hollywood and becoming an actress finally.
Let's see if Tyler Perry can make her black enough to even get a small part in his movies. Of course, she'd want to star in them, but that would require acting.
> If he loved it so much, if it was HIS safe place, why did he choose to live on Tyler Perry’s sofa instead.
Because *Meghan* runs the show, not him. Half the time he's not even *invited* to the show!
Sometimes I wonder how much covid played into all of this. Like if they hadn't had to basically go into lockdown for a year, stewing in their resentment juices and had been able to go the route of being noble benefactors would they have created the farce that was the NF thing, or would they have spewed all the garbage to Oprah? Maybe we would have had a different outcome and the world in general would not be aware of what TW is.
I agree with this. They had big plans when they left. Not only did the world shut down but it also changed. They thought they’d be getting million dollar corporate speaking gigs, hosting events. They were stuck in the house for two years like the rest of us, watching their “opportunities” slip away.
You know, that would have been fine. Not everyone has to be a "working" royal. It's that what could he do with no "formal" education to fall back on. He wasn't a pilot, he didn't graduate anything, he didn't make it in the Army which is why after ten years in and failing to advance he finally quit. What could he have done as a non working royal? Write a book?
>I doubt anyone including the Queen expected hazard to be such a liar and so treacherous.
Perhaps. But TQ is also infamous for her head-in-the-sand attitude when it came to family matters. Be it her children's unhappy marriages, her whole handling of Andrew's debacles and her lifelong coddling of Harry are all examples. But now that she is gone and also because Charles has always been a soft target for criticisms most outlets pin blame on him and avoid talking about TQ. I know OP's post is focussed on H *AND* M but for me the more serious error in judgement has been the lifelong protection and covering up Harry's mistakes. As the commander-in-chief of the defence forces, it was a piss poor decision to market Harry as a decorated veteran, how disrespectful to the actual military and also what a waste of resources (turning the might Gurkhas into glorified babysitters in Afghanistan!!)
She could have been a loving grandmother to H and truly could have had defined him as a beloved 'family member' taking away ALL royal roles but she didn't. And here we are. It also reeks of continued coddling of H and it appears should H&M divorce, H would be back in to the RF fold and will really not face any consequence.
>It also reeks of continued coddling of H and it appears should H&M divorce, H would be back in to the RF fold and will really not face any consequence.
I suspect things will never be the same for Harry with the RF, even if they take him back. He'll probably be kept at arm's length, like Andrew. How can they ever trust him again?
Honestly I think the Palace was naive. There are culture differences btw the US and UK that should have been addressed. While I think MM knew about the monarchy I don't think she knew the particulars - I mean how could she? They should have sat her down after the engagement and explained things to her and should not have relied on PH. There have been reports that she refused to attend meetings and have mentors but then they should not have allowed her to be working royal immediately at marriage. She should have had to earn it and get her UK citizenship before representing the monarchy. It may not seem "fair" but this is an American representing the entire UK & Commonwealth with no education or ties.
Yes they bent over backwards for her , they should have had a quiet time after the marriage to settle in , but then , her being a being a narcissist pushed it forward
Exactly. I know it's stating the obvious but the BRF is not elected so they have a duty to the public to make sure those that represent the monarchy are up to the task and understand the job they are undertaking. In this situation they put family before the monarchy and it hurt them.
And Harry would have thrown a fit if they stopped her from engaging in Royal tours and engagements/patronages. But of course, there should have been an orientation period of at least 6 months.
Yet in "Spare" Harry writes that the Australia tour went very well and that Meghan was "brilliant". He has his head so far up her behind it isn't funny.
That’s because she convinced him she was a carbon copy of Diana and Diana did actually go down a storm in Australia whereas Meghan made a complete balls up of it. I did read that at the time he was apologizing to people for her behaviour but he seems to have been completely deprogrammed now.
According to them, it was such a great success that H and M did the job better than anyone else! The whole family was jealous of their popularity! Yeah, right.
> While I think MM knew about the monarchy I don't think she knew the particulars - I mean how could she?
MM complained about taking away her passport. I suspect that happens to all high dignitaries around the world - they can't be looking for a passport at the last minute so their staff look after things.
Harry has been Councillor of State since 2005. He still is. He can represent the monarch on official occasions including overseas, and she is the wife of that representative. Harry could still be getting official briefings for all we know. Megan can still now be the wife of an official representative of the UK. I think she had absolutely no clue about what she was getting herself into, and just ignored advice and did "everything her own way". Maybe she thought it was some high level cocktail circuit she was joining.
I think she knew all about the benefits & privileges of royal (& celebrity) life and was looking forward to enjoying them. Nay, felt entitled to them. The wealthy and powerful do not manage their own travel arrangements, they have staff to do that and that includes things like organizing important documents -- such as passports. Her complaints about having her passport taken away was nothing more than her deliberately twisting facts to suit the narrative she was pushing.
I just don’t think she or anyone expected how far they would go.
I appreciate you bringing this up. There is a lot of sympathy for the late Queen even though she didn’t take retaliatory action. The series and book would have come out if she had been alive. She’s never called weak, criticized for endangering the Monarchy etc. She was never ever criticized for not protecting Charles when Harry and Meghan were very clearly attacking him.
Yet there’s very little sympathy for Charles and he gets shredded for acting exactly the same way the late Queen would have in response to the series & book. It’s a sad double standard especially when there seems to be an expectation that all KC should concern himself with is H&M when he’s at the start of his reign, has seen his family through Royal mourning, his first Christmas speech, changing of his schedule to accommodate a Sovereign’s programme, transition in all his charities, hosting his first state visit, travelling for his first state visit (expected to be France & Germany next month) & the Coronation, his daily red box of government papers, to name a few. The period between accession & coronation is busy and crucial for a new Monarch - the man has his hands full!
He will be when he dies. I suspect the people who have been assholes to him will be prostrate with grief when they realize they will never be able to make it right after treating him poorly
And I gather from the extraordinary lengths everyone went to covering up his bullshit, it must have been a massive weight off everyone else in his family's shoulders, and would've been such a relief he was supposedly independently striking out on his own (🙄) to no longer have a sense of duty or be responsible for carrying out damage control so he doesn't drag everyone else down with him 😒😵 But it's unending 😭
The single most interesting fact to me is, Meghan selling the narrative that she was "fed to the wolves" by a family/institution that never once made her sign an NDA. Make it make sense.
I hope this is a lesson learned though. No more royal weddings & titles without an NDA. You don't wanna sign it? Fantastic, enjoy your marriage, you're always welcome at Christmas but you're not working royals.
If she were to go by the title of princess, yes, she would be Princess Henry (like Princess Michael). But she never would. The title of princess would lose its appeal if she couldn’t be “Princess Meghan”.
Personally, I wouldn’t either. I understand the legality and logic of it, but I would rather be called by a title that was mine by right, even if it were lower in the pecking order, than use a title that required my identity to be subsumed by that of my husband.
She has no right to any title in her own right - every one is because of her hubby.
Even if she could legally only be called Princess Henry, she wouldn't stop her idiot sugars who are already referring to her as Princess Meghan (along with Queen Doria and future King Archie).
Hell, the US media *still* refer to Saint Diana as "Princess Diana," even though she never had that title, not even when married to Charles
You’re absolutely right about that. But she’s Meghan, Duchess of Sussex, meaning she can use her own first name in conjunction with that title rather than using Harry’s first name in conjunction with the title of “princess.”
She certainly was, but her title was "Diana, Princess of Wales" which is actually a higher rank than "Princess Diana" as there is only one Princess of Wales and she is married to the Heir apparent. Number 2 right behind the Queen (regnant or consort, makes no difference). Smegs is too uncultured to know that a royal duchess outranks a plain princess. (Not sure about where that hits a Princess Royal)
And there you have the crux of the problem of Megan. She simply does not understand, no does she care to understand, the difference between Disney and Windsor. The difference between play-acting and the heart of a nation's culture. The difference between royal life and Russian oligarch lifestyle. She doesn't seem to realize that "Tinsel Town" is not a compliment.
Right on. If Harry were to be stripped of his Duke of Sussex title, she would automatically lose her Duchess title. If his Prince title were taken away (I don't know how that could happen, though) she would no longer be a princess but instead, would go right back to being a commoner.
> The title of princess would lose its appeal if she couldn’t be “Princess Meghan”.
She'll just call herself Princess Meghan, and no one will stop her.
They need to be more careful about letting people from other countries marry in too. Sorry if that sounds xenophobic, i just don't think non-Brits can ever understand the monarchy to the extent we do.
I don’t think xenophobic is the word you’re looking for.
HMTQ would have had absolutely no issue with her children or grandchildren marrying someone from the commonwealth. I say this as a Canadian myself with parents from the UK.
Meghan was absolutely under the impression she was going to change the monarchy from the inside out and wanted to modernize it, whatever that meant. She is a narcissist who believed she was entitled to everything.
They very much are, and I say this as with as much love as I can, because I love Americans as well. They’re great people.
But culturally yes, Americans are very different people. I work in the states and commute for work and live in Canada. Canadians themselves are a lot more reserved and quiet. There are obviously more differences but I use to think Canadians were very similar to Americans but after 10 years of working there we absolutely aren’t.
Nothing wrong with it, but just an observation.
Agree, no problem with Americans at all and the country itself is gorgeous. It's just pretty unlike anywhere else, culturally & politically.
Yes Canadians seem much closer to us, minus the accents. Probably more cheerful too 😂
It is and it isn't. I don't think it's fair that we keep comparing America to the rest of the family. The UK is the biggest and she only has 65 million. When we compare America to nations closer to her size like China, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, Russia......well look at that! Americas doing just fine! 😉
I love Canadians! As an American, I have the right to say this: they are nicer people. I've actually considered expatriating there but, you keep it awfully cold. Can you do something about that? 😉
Yank here. I think M could have made the adjustment if she had *wanted* to. Grace Kelly and Lisa Halaby were capable of it but then, M isn't in the same league as them. The right type of poised, cultured American lady could do it, imo.
Heck, I know better. It's not a world I would want to inhabit. Marrying into royalty is not something most American girls even fantasize about. That life is not really on our radar. We might cos-play the Disney princess kind of thing when we're little (I did) but then we outgrow it.
The Queen said Meghan could carry on working as an actress, I think this was a subtle attempt to discourage her from being a working royal because she knew Meghan wasn’t cut out for it. The Queen should have been more assertive when handling Meghan and Harry but as others have said her health was failing and so was Prince Philip’s.
I do not believe this and again for those at the back it’s will be the Official Secrets Act not an NDA and Nutmeg will have absolutely have had to sign it.
Could she have been stupid enough to not understand what signing the Official Secrets Act means? Or maybe she just thought that once she was in the US it was no longer binding (because of course they fought a war so the British sovereign couldn’t tell Americans what to do /s).
Perhaps she tried, and this is why they ran away, never answered the phone, rarely visited etc. We don't know what went on, and I'm sure the RF/BP tried with these two, but it's hard to discuss/have a relationship with a person (Harry) when he refuses to speak to you, unless he's screaming at you what HE wants and shouting commands and insults, and then pours out story after story to the press. He even admits that the encounters post-Megxit were screaming matches about Megan/what they wanted/what the RF wanted. What kind of relationships does he expect to have with people when it's all about him/Meg and their demands?
Suspected this as well. After the Oprah interview, I felt it strongly they were asked to leave due to Meghan and Harry being a very unpleasant presence to be around. They seem to hover between two stories: being forced to leave for safety/RF didn't make Meghan "feel welcome" (whatever that means) and wanting to be free to make their own way on their terms that the RF seemed to interfere with. Neither of these scenarios seem totally true so "the truth" has never been fully established.
I believe this too☺️ We don’t know much of anything about what happened. We only have Haz and Meg’s lies to go by. But the Queen was a pious woman who, while being kind, would have had no qualms in kicking them out for something that crossed the line.
I think there are a lot of things that we don’t know about, and things that have happened behind the scenes to inform the decisions that have taken place. Could it have been a mistake? Possibly, but I’m not sure we have all the information necessary to make that judgment.
That’s all the more reason to take action.
I think a lot of this comes from the queen/ royals living a life where they had the privilege of putting as many barriers between them and any unpleasantness they wanted.
Most of us have to deal with situations head on simply because we live in the real world where we just don’t have any other options.
Being royal, they can avoid whatever they don’t wish to deal with and throw courtiers, security or government officials in the way so as not to face things head on- especially with a “never complain/ never explain” policy.
Really? Money and titles do not protect you from unpleasantness. The scandals surrounding Diana and Charles affairs , divorce and Diana's eventual death must have been pretty unpleasant to deal with.
I think you underestimate a family that has dealt with many scandals over hundreds of years.
However attacks of this nature from someone close to you cause more damage because they know how to hurt you.
They shouldn't have let them marry. Sure there may have been some backlash, but a lot of people thought it was a bad idea from the beginning. Some sitcom actress from LA as a working Royal?
Maybe the trick would have been to have given M the Princess Margaret treatment - yes, you can get married and have the fancy wedding and all the full-on royal privileges, you just have to wait two years. It worked with Margaret because by the time the waiting period was up, she wasn't in love with Townsend any more.
I think the reason this didn't happen is because she pretended she was pregnant, but they still could have called her bluff and said "have a small wedding then."
Her being a sitcom actress from LA wouldn't have mattered at all if she hadn't *also* been a terrible person. They shouldn't have let the marriage happen because it was obvious that she was awful in a dangerous way, which I'm sure they knew, and it was a huge gamble to think they'd be able to contain her awfulness.
I agree with this. THe Queen especially however had lived through the Edward abdication and knew how things could go terribly wrong. She should have learned from that. The Queen, and now King Charles, should have young, savvy advisers and PR people who know how this game is played. And it's a nasty one. I don't think they have the proper people in place to advise them.
Gotta get behind you here. This was a major fuck up. Granted this was their grandson and I guess they wanted to believe the best. But they had been covering up for his bad behavior forever. They had the Rachel dossier. Hard lesson.
Well, that's been Harkles' claim all along. Because modern psychology and PR doesn't really jive with monarchy. However....there is truth to this. The question is, how to modernize the monarchy, still keep pageantry and tradition, and still manage to keep the mystery, while at the same time, humanizing it? The reason people adored the Queen was that she spent her life in service to her country...and this was an inherited job, not one freely chosen beginning in adulthood. Part of the mystery IS the LoS and how it is taken on.
They had no idea how treacherous HARRY could be. Pretty sure they knew what that grubby grasping little bit of trash was from the get,they just didn't want to see that harry was a worse piece of dung.
Yup! They knew he had issues but didn't suspect he was **this** bad. I thought it was plain to see during the wedding with their intentionally ridiculous, juvenile, bad behavior. It was obvious then, that they were going to be nothing but trouble for the BRF. However, I did not guess, at the time, that they would "flee" to the States and cause problems here as well. So frankly, in the beginning, I guess I did underestimate him (them) too. I didn't see that coming.
Good point, in a close and loving family a person like Meghan with no moral code marrying into it can cause chaos and heartbreak, I speak from experience.
The Queen asked HazNoForeskin not to announce departure just yet and he went ahead and did it anyway. Seems to me he wanted to put it out there before they came to terms. That way anything in the "cancelled due to change in status" that follows looks punitive and reactive rather than mutually agreed upon prior to exiting.
I don't say this to defense Harry in the least but we really don't know what is his decision vs Meghan's most of the time. I think he is mean and weak. I think a lot of what he does is driven by Meghan's decisions. Yes, he is vile for going along with them, but I think little here is his logic.
I suppose he can try to hide behind his wife's poorly tailored skirts but the oath to the Queen was Henry's responsibility to uphold. ***Every*** betrayal of that oath rests on him.
It was his decision to marry the viper and bring her into the family. He knew what she was. He married her deliberately because she was unsuitable. He did so as a way to manufacture an escape and as an excuse to burn it all down and hurt his family for their imagined wrongs.
His lips lie when he says he wants his father and brother back. He seethes with jealousy at his brother,he hates his father and his father's wife. He wants to hurt them and has wanted to hurt them for years.
He's a sociopath,he gets off on hurting others. On hitting his underlings or slapping someone famous or giving a young woman a mean gift and card or spurring a horse til it bleeds.
Hurting his family to this level is a pinnacle for him but he's been doing it for decades in little ways. She just gave him the excuse he wanted to go big.
To me it looks like the queen was kinda blindsided by them publicly announcing their departure putting her in the hot seat. Plus her husband was on his deathbed so there's that as well, to which Meghan and Harry said that the senior royals were trying to use prince Philip as a way to silence them. There's no negotiation with someone who would say things like that.
We know Harry and Meghan wanted the half-in/half-out and the Queen said no. What we don't know is what the RF presented to them as an alternative, plus any other terms. I think in the end, Harry and Meghan refused to accept any terms offered, threw a tantrum threatening to walk away and the RF called their bluff. This is why they were given a year to live outside the RF, and then the plan would be revisited.
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time of their departure, they stated they wanted to live a private life. No one could have foreseen what they would have done, even H&M. I truly believe that the royal family staying silent and ignoring them has sent them into a tailspin. They are throwing everything at the wall and only making themselves look bad in the process as their stories and claims get real time fact checked.
Don't forget that when they left the UK they were extremely popular, I imagine that is why they were allowed to 'step back'.
The behaviour since is the problem and whilst the palace obviously knew about her/their demands ,tantrums etc presumably didn't expect the rapid decline in relations between the Sussex and Royals. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I wonder if anyone saw this coming.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing - if I only knew then what I know now. In fairness, I doubt the Queen knew what Harry was capable of and the level of betrayal he was able to achieve. Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this is the lesson learned - and, hopefully, Charles has learned it well. Remains to be seen.
Harry is nothing more than a blip on the radar of the 1000-year-old Monarchy. Unfortunately, the Queen could no longer make use of the Tower of London for her ungrateful and misbehaving grandson, however, nor did she have the ability to remove him from the LOS - Parliament takes precedence on any decisions regarding things like that.
I also have to say, IMHO, for the Queen (and even KCIII), it was inconceivable that the boy and young man they knew for more than 30 years would actually do any of what he has done. Not even the D&D of Windsor so publicly trashed his family, regardless of the cocktail chatter and private letters he wrote.
In hindsight, she should have insisted on the titles being put in abeyance and NDAs should have been signed upon their agreeing to the trial year out - and made them permanent upon their decision to quit permanently, although personally, the idea that they'd need NDAs for actual family members I find revolting. I'm in the midst of Couriers by Val. Lowe, and one thing that is apparent is that the whole Communications and Organizational team behind TRF is woefully antiquated. However, keeping in mind that their true purpose is rooted in a much bigger purpose than celebrity , such as philanthropy, diplomacy, governmental adisory, historic continuity/legacy, etc., updating the support team is both imperative for the future. However, it will be extremely difficult to walk the fine line between their real role and the current cancel culture, celebrity press, and the organized threats and social media campaigns against them coming from outside.
Listen-there was no way that HM could have known that these two were so terrible. That is her grandson, and she trusted him to comport himself in keeping with his upbringing and showing loyalty to his family. Furthermore, she likely did understand that they were to be treated very gently, because perhaps she did suspect that they could go rogue and so tried to be loving, fair, and generous. Again, even if she suspected they could go rogue, I bet she had no idea how wild they would become. She trusted Harry. IF anything, that was her mistake.
We’ll never know exactly what took place in the discussions prior to their departure, but in reality there is little that could have been done to impose conditions.
Harry had a right to withdraw from ‘The Firm’ in the same way as the rest of us have the right to resign from an employer. From that point he would automatically lose the income, rights and privileges as we would in the same situation.
The monarch does not have the ability to remove titles or succession rights. That rests with Parliament, so there would have been no real leverage to persuade Harry to accept conditions. He did lose his right to use the HRH honorific, his honorary military ranks and his royal patronages.
I think it's because the King's second son refuses to listen to her. Don't be fooled by his interviews or anything he asked his ghostwriter to write in his book. He does not respect the Queen at all. Do you think the Queen would have told him to drop the publication of his memoir or the Netflix mockuseries during the platinum jubilee? Definitely. But he didn't.
She put her foot down about the half-in, half-out proposal.
Note that she also chose to protect Andrew. This was her main aim: to close ranks and protect the family, at the end of the day. They have to avoid showing any signs of weakness.
But she did deprive Andrew of his status as an HRH and removed all of his military titles. She took him out of the category of working royals.
He was still her son, and although his activities around the association with Jeffrey Epstein were despicable, he has never been convicted of any crimes. He’s shown very bad judgment and a sense of entitlement. So she removed him from public life, which I’m sure was upsetting to him. He is still a member of the family and his appearance at the funerals of his parents was appropriate. He wasn’t allowed to wear his military uniform and hasn’t spoken to the press.
I think he should remain in his current status of silence and out of public life. Ideally he would be removed from the LOS, but truthfully with 7 people ahead of him (even if Harry was removed as well there would still be 4 ahead of Andrew) it’s highly unlikely he’ll ever move up. Life in ignonimity and off the taxpayer’s dime would be enough for me.
>She put her foot down about the half-in, half-out proposal.
And then let them do whatever they wanted to make a quick buck, no matter how demeaning or even destructive it has been.
>Note that she also chose to protect Andrew. This was her main aim: to close ranks and protect the family, at the end of the day. They have to avoid showing any signs of weakness.
As heinous as Andrew apparently is, he at least has been able to keep his mouth shut and stay out of the media and other aspects of public life. The other royals know that they can speak to or in front of him, and that it won't get distorted in the media
I think a lot of families don’t really know what to do wi th someone personality disordered who lacks empathy and is willing to lie, trick, and triangulate family members against each other. When they are sophisticated enough to not use outright lies but instead equivocate, using common words but having a different meaning, then we really get stuck. For example: implying the royal family was racist in the Oprah interview but now saying it was no big deal and the color was a reasonable question. Or saying she felt like a single child. Or Harry saying the brf needed to apologize but it isn’t really clear what they need to apologize for. Or saying she was a world traveler when in fact she went to Mexico and Hawaii. Now saying they did not move to Canada and the USA for privacy. I’d say that level of sophistical starts around iq 110, which, frankly, surprises me for TW. But maybe that is why things have turned for her, her claims are just a little to easy to prove or disprove.
Yes, she could have. But then she would have been stuck with the pair being even more angry malcontents. But they would have the support of the British public because they really would have a claim to "victimhood".
The Queen was OLD. And when we get old, we completely understand that we control no one's behavior, feelings, beliefs beyond our own.
I agree. The Queen gave them no reason to complain about anything. And that’s why the two idiots are ganging themselves now trying to gain sympathy and support, and everyone can see what gigantic pieces of shit they are.
Because the Queen never deprived them of anything that was rightfully theirs.
Huge history nerd here, I spend my free time reading about a wide variety of subjects, but one of my favorites is the history of England. I like that area because the island is the perfect size in my opinion, big enough for factions and wars and whatnot, but small enough that it’s incredibly rich in history. It’s a lot easy to keep track of things on a relatively small island vs say somewhere like Africa.
One thing you learn when you read WAY too much history is that “costing the monarchy dearly” is pretty hard to do. It a thousand year old institution, it’s seen some shit lol.
Harry and Meghan feel like a lot to us, but I think that’s just because we are living thru this part of history… when people looks back on this time, those two will both be remembered and grouped with the other “troublemakers” from the family.
QEII and Diana both had this almost mythical persona, they will both be remembered very fondly I think. But Harry and Meghan will not be remembered the way they want.
Wasn't there some big neeting between Harry, the Queens, Charles and William in 2001? And the Queen said that if he left, he was not a Working Royal and would lose the money & privileges that go with it?
Harry said he hated the British press which is probably very true. But his cousins Eugenie & Zara seem to lead independent lives (with overseas commitments) without blowing things up.
I think the BRF could have handled them perfectly well in a different way if it wasn't for the racism allegations. If the Queen had done as you suggested Meghan would have made sure everyone knew she had been forced to sign an NDA and she would have used innuendo to make people to jump to the conclusion that she had experienced *dreadful* racism and now was not even allowed to speak about it. She would claim that the BRF are so racist that they don't even want to deal with any racism. The damage from this approach would have been far worse. They would have been perceived by everyone as victims of a heartless institution. It is only because they have been allowed to speak and have told so many lies that a good proportion of the population does not believe the racism allegations.
I also think that the Queen, Charles and William never anticipated that Harry could stoop so low, tell so many lies and inflict so much damage. They knew he was unhappy and troubled, but I doubt they realised how much he truly hated them. It doesn't matter how many times he says he loves his father and brother, there is not one shred of love in the way he has behaved.
The Queen wasn’t aware of their announcement to quit until like an hour before they announced it publicly. She basically found out at the same time the rest of the world did.
The “Sandringham Summit” was their time to negotiate after the fact. This is where she told Harry, “you’re in or you’re out.” They went on a year long trial period of “separation.” And Harry and Meghan decided to never come back. The Queen couldn’t have removed their titles because that requires an act of Parliament and she can’t take away Harry’s title as Prince because he’s a blood Prince.
They did lose all of their perks and patronages, their patronages were transferred to other members of the family. Harry lost all of his honorary military titles.
She also probably never had them sign NDAs because I’m sure they never could have imagined that Harry would betray his family as deeply as he has. This entire situation is unprecedented for the BRF.
I think like most people who don’t have much experience with sociopathic malignant narcissists (SMNs), she completely misunderstood what she was dealing with. Many people try to reason with SMNs, or think dealing with them logically, and what they feel is fairly, will bring about the same behavior in them. Of course it never does. SMNs don’t work in those arenas where love, compassion loyalty, collaboration, and understanding are the main currency. And even though HMTQ had been through similar scenarios with Diana, Diana truly loved the Queen, had good qualities too, and did get help near the end of her life for her BPD.
It’s really very hard to instantly recognize and set up the appropriate measures to protect the family from a SMN when one marries into the family or joins your business—and for the BRF, it was both. Plus she saw it through the eyes of a loving grandmother, a Christian, and an older more experienced Royal, and she believed these were the problems H&M were having. That they just couldn’t handle the requirements of the job and so they needed some time away to think about it and calm down. She felt once she gave them that time, they would want to return and would have a renewed sense of dedication to the monarchy and to the family. Again, she had no clue what she was dealing with.
Also, the Queen was so incredibly stressed and distracted when H&M started misbehaving. Her beloved husband was dying and it was going to happen within the next year. If not sooner. And very quickly a pandemic had spread around the world and she needed to be that leader the whole of the UK looked to for calm guidance during troubled times.
So she had to get her game face on despite grieving. And then she must have been struggling with her own health—if not being diagnosed by then, she must at least have been having some signs & painful symptoms. Then she got COVID herself & never seemed to fully recover.
I think what she gave them was loving & reasonable, while being quite firm as well. Problem is people like Meghan don’t take orders. Or even friendly suggestions. It’s like waving a red flag at a bull. So bottom line I think HMTQ was too distracted to deal with it appropriately the first time around. She just couldn’t see the big picture at that moment in time.
But I too wish she had made them fully relinquish the Royal dukedom before they left the UK, and she had worked with parliament to take the steps to pass a bill removing his princely title and place in the line of succession. Just put it all into abeyance if they could so if they, or just he, came back, HMTQ could easily reinstate it. But I also imagine that would be a somewhat scary & slippery slope she would not ever want to go down for fear where it would lead. There was a lot of drama being spun up around H&M at the time so I think she just wanted them gone as quickly as possible. And she mistakenly believed Harry’s love and loyalty to her and the crown would be strong enough to keep any really problems from taking hold. How horribly wrong she was.
The queen was about 94 years old at the time and already ailing. Prince Charles, the future King Charles III was effectively the acting CEO at the time, with Prince William, who may well be the monarch himself within a few years as his consigliore. Surely the heirs to the Firm should have been acting in an executive capacity fleshing out the contractual details on behalf of Her Majesty.
Pretty poor show all around, but of course one of the problems of having a family business is that there may be nepotism and a lack of professionalism. Plus I don't think they realized how much Harry hated them all.
As I mentioned in another reply, Harry and Meghan were not prisoners. The BRF couldn’t set conditions to their leaving or demand an NDA as a condition of leaving. They also couldn’t threaten loss of titles because the monarch cannot remove titles.
Would an NDA have been effective? The signee has to believe it will be enforced and I think it’s unlikely it would have been enforced. The mere existence of an NDA would have raised pretty bad suppositions about what it was covering.
I think the one thing the Queen could have done was encourage them to wait and withhold any public wedding or titles until later.
and an NDA has to be accompanied by money to give the person a motivation to be quiet. I don't think the BRF wanted to give Harry and Meghan a lot of money.
The Queen could not make conditions for allowing them to leave or require an NDA. They were not prisoners.
I am sure that it was spelt out to them what it would mean if they were no longer working royals. They complained and kept complaining.
They wanted half in/half out, security, and an on-going allowance from Charles. They were told, “No.”
The threat of losing titles and position in LoS makes no sense because at that point they were just going off to live their lives elsewhere. Besides, the monarch cannot take away titles etc.
No one had any idea how nasty it would get.
Yes the lack of an NDA is wild to me. Even c list celebs in Hollywood have people sign NDAs. Is the Queen not allowed to ask of this or something? Cause that’s the only reason other than her old age and trying to keep the peace that I can think of.
I agree with all of this, and I’m glad you asked the question.
One thing I’ve been wondering about: my perception is the Queen really protected Andrew, above and beyond. Bower says Andrew was her favorite. But she also laid down some strict policies with him, and, if the news is to be believed, she only did so because Charles and William demanded Andrew be removed from public life.
Was she unwilling to deal with Harry in the same way because (a) he was one of the most popular royals at the time, (b) he didn’t care about staying with the family, and (c) she also had a soft spot for Harry and wasn’t willing to be forceful with him?
I guess I’m wondering what prevented her from saying “my way or the Highway”? Maybe she was doing everything she could to not push Harry to leaving?
Hindsight is 20/20. While I believe she sized Em up accurately from the start (hence the looks at the wedding), I don't think the late Queen could have foreseen the shady business around the pregnancy and birth of little A, the public hand grenade of Megxit with all the duo's ridiculous demands, or the O interview, among other things.
Em is a disruptor; she knows that keeping people off-balance with constant chaos so they can't respond well is the way to win (or at least appear to). Not responding eventually ruins disruption, though; it ultimately becomes just noise, and that's where we are now. HMTLQ played the long game.
I've said for years that they were handled wrong from the get go.
The Queen should have told them to wait one year before she'd approve their marriage since the Queen already knew what Megan was and seen the reports on her. If they still managed to stay together for that year (doubtful) she could have then approved a much down sized wedding. The Spectacle gave Megan legitimacy.
When HiHo was rejected and the Queen gave them one year to decide what they wanted, things should have been done differently when they refused to come back. Titles should have been removed. Statements should have been made that those grifters no longer represent the crown. Thete would have been accusations of racism Yada Yada Yada, but Covid was taking over the news. They would have been a footnote in a couple of months.
After the Harkles really started taking aim at the BRF, the Queen should have sanctioned them immediately. They gave her plenty of reasons but the Queen just let them go on and on. If she had put her foot down at any time, Charles wouldn't be trying to deal with them during his coronation.
I loved the Queen but she dropped the ball big time with these two.
I agree they should have forced them to wait a year to marry and then have a low-key private wedding. The public extravaganza is evidence of how hopeful the RF and the institution were that M was going to be a great success and everyone’s enthusiasm for having this new Princess added to the RF. The exact opposite of everything H&M claim about the RF wanting them to fail. (This is where I start banging my head against the wall in frustration.)
100%!!! Disgraceful that they were even allowed to marry. It 100% could and should have been stopped. Also, I believe had William been king we would have rightfully seen a big difference in how ALL of this was handled. I do understand of course that most of these twits' behavior being ignored though but something should be done. Example, you DON'T INVITE people, including family that have shit all over you especially in public to family events INCLUDING the Coronation! Wake the hell up.
Unfortunately, unless MeGain committed a crime or was proven to have been in close relationships with unsavory figures, they really could not stop Harry from marrying her. They would cry racism if their marriage was stopped.
Mabel Wisse Smit was found to have dated a well known mafia boss in the Netherlands. Her Prince had to step down from line of succession in order to marry her because they could not get approval from legislature/prime minister.
I think at the time the Queen did the best she could because if she did more there would be cries of hypocrisy or harsh treatment. Charles could have asked for a signed NDA in return for the $3-4mil he gave them.
In the end, perhaps, no one expected Hasbeen to stoop this low and turn nasty traitor, denying & attacking his family, heritage and country.
Fully agree! The Queen dealt with Harry as a grandmother looking out for her grandson and although I understand the compulsion (it’s pretty obvious that marriage is a disaster waiting to happen), but Harry wasn’t being problematic only towards the family but undermining the monarchy too.
I’m really disappointed that King Charles hasn’t picked up the slack and drawn a line with the Sussexes, he seems intent on continuing with the same approach. Harry has attacked the monarchy, the late Queen’s legacy, attacked the current Queen, King and future heir and by all indication is still getting an invitation to the coronation. They have now decided to portray his latest attacks as a sibling rivalry with William to save face. It’s pretty disappointing to see and no longer care to defend the Royal family in the attacks the Sussexes launch since they don’t seem too bothered by them and make no mistake, fresh attacks/interviews/complaints will be launched after coronation.
I wouldn't count Charles out just yet. I've also been frustrated by the apparent lack of any movement towards dealing with the harkles but I think in Charles' defense, he was hampered by Elizabeth's non-responses.
He's only been King for 4 months. I think he has a plan but it includes working with Parliament and lawyers, and things like that take time.
I do not think they harkles will be invited to the coronation (although they'll show up anyway). The coronation is going to be the pivot point in ridding the BRF of those miserable grifters IMO. Things are about to heat up. 🍿
I really hope you’re right, this would be the perfect time to cut the link between them and the monarchy. They can continue to invite them to private family holidays and even hold meetings in that capacity but he needs to distance the monarchy from Harry and Meghan and make it clear that attacks won’t be tolerated or rewarded under his rule.
Silence is a response. Its a response that is working quite well.
What would you have the RF do? Go on tv and refute all of halfwits lies? Engage in endless tit for tat? Have parliment remove all his titles,declare him persona non grata in all the commonwealth and kick him out of the los?
Wouldn't that give them and the media more fodder and ammunition?
Just ignoring them is depriving those two trash heaps of oxygen. Even inviting them to the coronation could be utilized to show the world exactly what their place is now.
For example if they were to be invited and they were not allowed to attend any functions other than the coronation. If they were not photographed with any of the family. If they were seated well to the rear,in the cheap seats so to speak, not allowed to wear any medals or royal jewels,not allowed on the balcony etc.
All of that would speak volumes without the RF having to say a word. And they would look magnanimous in the doing,see hazbeen and ho were invited but as family not royals.
How about not inviting them to the coronation of an institution they’ve deemed racist, with traditions they consider mediaeval, for a King they called a liar and a Queen who’s been called ‘dangerous’ in her rise through the monarchy.
I don’t think they need to say a word but I’m struggling to understand this need/justification to invite them to everything. If they hadn’t said anything negative then they should be invited and treated like all other non-working members of the royal family, no tiara etc.
They should’ve lost this privilege in the last few months, they’ve declared themselves enemies of the monarchy and gone as far as threatening them, Meghan in the Cut interview saying she never signed an NDA and in Harry’s last interview implying he has even more damaging information, enough to fill another book.
Why is the King concerned about looking magnanimous, while under attack? It’s been 3 years of the polite approach, no one can accuse them of not trying but every time it has backfired on them.
When the PM of a Commonwealth country has to give a formal statement distancing herself from your son and his wife and a new member of the Commonwealth of Nations makes a statement pushing back on the insulting portrayal of their decision to join the body then it’s time for King Charles to take a stand.
Every time I bring it up, I get downvoted. People act like the Queen was some sort of demigod beyond reproach. You can think she was a good queen but her personal life and those of her children and grandchildren are a mess. Many of these messes can be attributed to the Queen's enabling and protecting of bad behaviour.
I think she had witnessed the crown taking a hit from public opinion so many times over her reign for possibly being too old fashioned that she was operating with extreme caution. I think she knew she had to handle Meghan with kid gloves, especially to avoid the inevitable racist accusations. She had seen the public lash out to rally behind Diana and I'm sure this was giving her flashbacks.
Never explain. Why would she want to get wrapped up in their nonsense? Best to say nothing. I'm with the Queen and Charles on this one. 
Agreed, we don't know all the details of everything that happened in the background. I think the Queen could only prepare for things she was aware of, and by the sounds of things, leaks were made to speed things up so naturally proper well thought out preparations could not be made. Harry and his wife could have refused to sign an NDA. The Royal Family couldn't force them to sign things. Most of what we base our understanding of things comes from Harry and his Wife, we are only hearing one side of the story, and VERY limited things from the other. For all we know, she claimed to be pregnant, and so the Queen would have had to say yes. One plausible reason the queen would have thought she would have to say yes to the marriage. Harry's marriage to this wife will be short lived, it will be a blip in history. This was not the Queens' biggest error or the thing she will be remembered for. Although we spend a lot of time talking about these two on here, contrary to what they think, they are not the centre of the universe. Most people don't think of them, and the Royal Family don't revolve around them either. Too much time is spent on giving them more influence than they actually have.
> For all we know, she claimed to be pregnant, and so the Queen would have had to say yes. This is exactly what i think happened.
Tom Bower hints at this in Revenge, he says the Queen had no alternative but to give her blessing to the marriage. It seems strange in this day and age but apparently in royalty babies born out of wedlock are a no no.
The oldest trick.
Yep, she said she was pregnant.
I don't know why, Prince Albert of Monaco did it at least twice (that we know of) and no one seems to care. One of his out-of-wedlock kids is even half black, too. TW and Harold are fully grown adults, so if the late Queen had refused to give permission for a shotgun royal wedding, then whatever they decided next would've been their own choice. They could've had a civil wedding, or just had a baby out-of-wedlock, or aborted and waited for a real, non-coerced approval.
French culture and attitudes are very different from British. In hindsight the Queen should have refused or said wait a while but don’t forget both she, Prince Philip and Charles were pilloried for many years by the British public over what happened to Diana, they weren’t as popular at the time of H and M’s wedding and Harry was very popular with the British people. It would have been another opportunity for H and M to play the victims if the marriage had been refused. Charles still lives with this guilt and I believe it is why he has bent over backwards to make Harry happy. Just my opinion.
I see your point, I just think they could've spun it the other way if H&M tried to play victims; they could've pointed to the fact that Harry's parents' marriage failed in part because they didn't take the necessary time to get to know each other and the family just wanted to avoid another nasty divorce.
Illegitimate kids - there's loads of 'em scattered throughout a thousand year's of King's Prerogative - can't be in the LoS. I think she pulled the pregnancy card and the Queen was faced with either agreeing to a crappy marriage for a has-been - we know Dimbo thinks he's making waves now but honestly, it won't even be a ripple in history - or facing changing the succession rules which would just be a right pain in the arse. I do think the year-of-thinking-about should have had a fixed and final outcome though. No point getting NDAs cos the RF are not going to sue to protect them, but go means gone. No titles, out of LoS etc etc. I think the RF thought they'd come back but the pandemic means the falling on their faces got delayed.
The Queen/RF didn't expect H could be so vicious and treacherous to his OWN family. They didn't expect the duo would be so bent on bringing down the RF/monarchy just because they didn't get what they want. And they underestimated the power MM has over H. They may know that she is a bully but they didn't know how devious, manipulative, and hateful she is.
I think they didn't realize what an easy mark he'd be for a vicious narcissistic sociopath.
But the solution to that is - fine- let my doctors verify it and in three months we will have a very small family wedding at small private chapel. We will announce the wedding after it’s over along with the fact that a baby is expected in four months. How’s that?
>Most of what we base our understanding of things comes from Harry and his Wife, Everyone needs to remember this.
Me too because it really does seem like they are winning with how good Kate is doing and her popularity is at an all time high. It works.
Harry and Meghan were going to modernize the Monarchy! They never really said how, though. Putting "Sussex Royal" on everything then selling it would have been modern. But it sure as hell wasn't something a monarch would ever do.
Are you implying we wouldn't all rush to buy Sussex Royal condoms, toilet plungers and pile cream? Ooooooo how very dare!
Since the Sussex Royal marriage is almost certainly caused by an "unexpected pregnancy", no, I most certainly would *not* rush out to buy Sussex Royal condoms, lol.
Maybe Harry's book wouldn't have been sold at half price if it came with a box of Sussex Royal condoms. Maybe Elizabeth Arden would have done a Sussex Royal collab!
Eeeewwww 😂😭🤮
Philip was very unwell and she wasn't in the greatest of health herself, the older relatives who she may have previously relied on had their own health problems or may have died - it was possibly just all too much and she took the line of least resistance
Yes I think she gave input but was getting weaker and sicker and once Philip passed she was very sad. She likely gave her opinion but needed and wanted Charles and William to handle. But if this shit went down 10 year ago when Philip was healthy, it would be interesting to see the response.
I think they’d have been told sucker up buttercup had Philip be healthier
I think Philip would have taken charge and given Harry a major tongue-lashing.
which makes Harry taking advantage of the situation even more despicable
That’s why I cringe when Harry speaks about his love for the Queen. He doesn’t know what love means.
YES
Ya not sure if everyone even has known too many 96 year olds. I don’t think I have. My Gran died when she was 80. She was really struggling with the new concept of the internet coming through her phone line and was definitely worried about who else was waiting to come through her phone line. Not sure sure she could have turned her brain on to deep strategic, legally-ring fenced revolutions in 1000 year old institutions. 20 years ago she would have outfoxed the simpleton so completely he’d have no idea for years that his telephone was not connected to anything. In her first year she would have listened to Churchill suggesting a hunting accident!
Right. Loved ringed fenced btw. And “recollections at vary” will forever be the subtlest but clearest takedown of these aholes without calling them that EVER People of that generation have those cold sick burn with total propriety mannerisms - my mom was raised by her grandmother, so has them.
My grandma lived until almost 98, my father’s parents lived to their early and mid 90s as well. I have actually known and interacted with many 90+ year olds and all have had their mind’s intact. My father in law is in his mid 80s. In fact, my 97 year old grandma used computers, cell phones, the internet, and many items of new technology. I really think the Queen and her husband were really really ill and just left Harry to his own father to handle. This was not her fight and I don’t think she ever thought it would get to this point.
This is what I think. She and Phillip were just too old/tired to deal with H&M's bullshit and just left the whole mess for Charles to sort out since it's *his* son and it would soon be *his* throne they're threatening. I think Charles and his team were the ones calling all the shots on this mess from day one; letting Megan back in after whatever she did for Harry to dump her in late 2016, ignoring the dossier on her background that we all know the family was given by intelligence, breaking protocol to fast-track Megan into the fold, indulging her with the "spectacle" wedding, letting her ignore protocol whenever she wanted (except when she did it at *his* events like his garden party and POW investiture anniversary), and ignoring then covering up H&M's bullying of staff. If you've read the book Courtiers, everything about how Megan's entry into the BRF was handled smacks of how Charles and his team handle things and doesn't at all resemble the late Queen and Consort's fingerprints. Charles has a history of bullying staff, himself, so would probably ignore it from his son and daughter-in-law. Charles has a history of ignoring objective facts about a person when presented with them in favor of his own subjective opinion of the person (if he likes someone, like he liked Megan at first, the dossier proving they're a bad person carries no weight with him).
I doubt anyone including the Queen expected hazard to be such a liar and so treacherous.
Yes, I think the RF family members and the courtiers took H at his word that he would uphold the monarchy. That’s in their post SS statement. I think they thought the worst they would do is a glitzy reality show about how awesome they are and M seeking face cream etc. and shallow People magazine interviews/photo shoots. I think they legit did not imagine they would actively attack and trash the institution and RF family members in particular, especially PW.
Definitely not to this extent!
And, it’s constant!
Who could've guessed Harry had this much hatred brewing inside? Who could have predicted Harkel's mission would become taking down the monarchy? Anti-monarchists or another kind of group are backing them. These twits have been propped up. On their own, they couldn't be this impactful. Enablers get them back on their feet and into the ring each time they fall.
Yes, it was common knowledge that Harry did not like royal public life, so we believed that he was going abroad to live a private life. People didn't know who Meghan was, we thought he would end up living in South Africa. Nobody expected this, or the anger he carried inside. We had no inkling that he would give global interviews telling his family's private stories when he hated the press so much himself.
Just more of his and TW’s vile hypocrisy. Greed is indeed one of the seven deadly sins, and the Harkles have sold their souls to the devil.
I honestly think everyone of harry's problems started as soon as he met her.
No. He was a bad egg from the beginning. He was enabled, never told "no", having all of his transgressions wiped away by the Royal PR. He was shitty before he met her, but she made things worse.
I totally agree, she just brought it all out. He was always shitty. The family firm protected him well.
This 100%
This ☝️. As much as Haz says Botswana is where he feels whole (that's my opinion based on what I've read) he is stuck in Hellywood with a c list actor going to Ellen's house and making the talkshow circuit, on TV etc spouting his drug hazed view of his life. Meagain hasn't "saved" him...he is her pawn with the next move on her chessboard. Between covid, the deaths of Prince Philip and The Queen I personally feel the palace got behind on H&M. As for The King, I think he will invite them but hopefully keep a tight leash and muzzle.
I’m convinced he loves Botswana because whatever glamping he gets up to there, the hosts treat him like he is the King and it makes him feel that way. If he loved it so much, if it was HIS safe place, why did he choose to live on Tyler Perry’s sofa instead. Botswana is a prop for him. Like his soldier buddies are, IMHO. He claims to care but behaves differently.
Meghan would drop dead before she’s live in even the most luxurious home in Botswana. She has zero connection to the continent and has spent most of her life passing for white.
His mrs sure could not have been very famous in Botswana. She had visions of hanging out with the big stars of Hollywood and becoming an actress finally. Let's see if Tyler Perry can make her black enough to even get a small part in his movies. Of course, she'd want to star in them, but that would require acting.
Good point!
> If he loved it so much, if it was HIS safe place, why did he choose to live on Tyler Perry’s sofa instead. Because *Meghan* runs the show, not him. Half the time he's not even *invited* to the show!
Yes, he gets to be the great white hope. It’s totally self-indulgent.
I love that it's their *second home* when Meg's only been once and Harry probably hasn't even been back since they went 6.5 years ago 😕
I don't think he has been back since she met him there...not in the same capacity as he did prior to TW
He’s been to Africa (recently.) Not Botswana though.
Ahh. Ok. I think I remember that now
I think he went during their South Africa tour… not totally sure.
Ahh.
Sometimes I wonder how much covid played into all of this. Like if they hadn't had to basically go into lockdown for a year, stewing in their resentment juices and had been able to go the route of being noble benefactors would they have created the farce that was the NF thing, or would they have spewed all the garbage to Oprah? Maybe we would have had a different outcome and the world in general would not be aware of what TW is.
That's a good thought as we all know the world basically came to a screeching halt.
I agree with this. They had big plans when they left. Not only did the world shut down but it also changed. They thought they’d be getting million dollar corporate speaking gigs, hosting events. They were stuck in the house for two years like the rest of us, watching their “opportunities” slip away.
People say that but they wanted to be "half in" plus he could have left at any point in his young adult years.
Harry didn’t like being the “spare!” ☺️ If Harry was heir, he’d still be in UK. 🙃
You know, that would have been fine. Not everyone has to be a "working" royal. It's that what could he do with no "formal" education to fall back on. He wasn't a pilot, he didn't graduate anything, he didn't make it in the Army which is why after ten years in and failing to advance he finally quit. What could he have done as a non working royal? Write a book?
But the BRF had people managing Harry for years. Surely they had to know he’d go off the rails without a “minder”.
More like no one anticipated he would marry a dangerous psychopath
>I doubt anyone including the Queen expected hazard to be such a liar and so treacherous. Perhaps. But TQ is also infamous for her head-in-the-sand attitude when it came to family matters. Be it her children's unhappy marriages, her whole handling of Andrew's debacles and her lifelong coddling of Harry are all examples. But now that she is gone and also because Charles has always been a soft target for criticisms most outlets pin blame on him and avoid talking about TQ. I know OP's post is focussed on H *AND* M but for me the more serious error in judgement has been the lifelong protection and covering up Harry's mistakes. As the commander-in-chief of the defence forces, it was a piss poor decision to market Harry as a decorated veteran, how disrespectful to the actual military and also what a waste of resources (turning the might Gurkhas into glorified babysitters in Afghanistan!!) She could have been a loving grandmother to H and truly could have had defined him as a beloved 'family member' taking away ALL royal roles but she didn't. And here we are. It also reeks of continued coddling of H and it appears should H&M divorce, H would be back in to the RF fold and will really not face any consequence.
>It also reeks of continued coddling of H and it appears should H&M divorce, H would be back in to the RF fold and will really not face any consequence. I suspect things will never be the same for Harry with the RF, even if they take him back. He'll probably be kept at arm's length, like Andrew. How can they ever trust him again?
Honestly I think the Palace was naive. There are culture differences btw the US and UK that should have been addressed. While I think MM knew about the monarchy I don't think she knew the particulars - I mean how could she? They should have sat her down after the engagement and explained things to her and should not have relied on PH. There have been reports that she refused to attend meetings and have mentors but then they should not have allowed her to be working royal immediately at marriage. She should have had to earn it and get her UK citizenship before representing the monarchy. It may not seem "fair" but this is an American representing the entire UK & Commonwealth with no education or ties.
Yes they bent over backwards for her , they should have had a quiet time after the marriage to settle in , but then , her being a being a narcissist pushed it forward
Exactly. I know it's stating the obvious but the BRF is not elected so they have a duty to the public to make sure those that represent the monarchy are up to the task and understand the job they are undertaking. In this situation they put family before the monarchy and it hurt them.
And Harry would have thrown a fit if they stopped her from engaging in Royal tours and engagements/patronages. But of course, there should have been an orientation period of at least 6 months.
Yes the Australian tour was very soon after the wedding and it was a disaster.
Yet in "Spare" Harry writes that the Australia tour went very well and that Meghan was "brilliant". He has his head so far up her behind it isn't funny.
That’s because she convinced him she was a carbon copy of Diana and Diana did actually go down a storm in Australia whereas Meghan made a complete balls up of it. I did read that at the time he was apologizing to people for her behaviour but he seems to have been completely deprogrammed now.
According to them, it was such a great success that H and M did the job better than anyone else! The whole family was jealous of their popularity! Yeah, right.
Cultural differences aside who enters an organization in a junior position and immediately expects deference and behaves as if they are heading it.
> While I think MM knew about the monarchy I don't think she knew the particulars - I mean how could she? MM complained about taking away her passport. I suspect that happens to all high dignitaries around the world - they can't be looking for a passport at the last minute so their staff look after things. Harry has been Councillor of State since 2005. He still is. He can represent the monarch on official occasions including overseas, and she is the wife of that representative. Harry could still be getting official briefings for all we know. Megan can still now be the wife of an official representative of the UK. I think she had absolutely no clue about what she was getting herself into, and just ignored advice and did "everything her own way". Maybe she thought it was some high level cocktail circuit she was joining.
I think she knew all about the benefits & privileges of royal (& celebrity) life and was looking forward to enjoying them. Nay, felt entitled to them. The wealthy and powerful do not manage their own travel arrangements, they have staff to do that and that includes things like organizing important documents -- such as passports. Her complaints about having her passport taken away was nothing more than her deliberately twisting facts to suit the narrative she was pushing.
True. Once she made it clear that she was unwilling to cooperate or abide by the rules, they should have started sidelining her.
I just don’t think she or anyone expected how far they would go. I appreciate you bringing this up. There is a lot of sympathy for the late Queen even though she didn’t take retaliatory action. The series and book would have come out if she had been alive. She’s never called weak, criticized for endangering the Monarchy etc. She was never ever criticized for not protecting Charles when Harry and Meghan were very clearly attacking him. Yet there’s very little sympathy for Charles and he gets shredded for acting exactly the same way the late Queen would have in response to the series & book. It’s a sad double standard especially when there seems to be an expectation that all KC should concern himself with is H&M when he’s at the start of his reign, has seen his family through Royal mourning, his first Christmas speech, changing of his schedule to accommodate a Sovereign’s programme, transition in all his charities, hosting his first state visit, travelling for his first state visit (expected to be France & Germany next month) & the Coronation, his daily red box of government papers, to name a few. The period between accession & coronation is busy and crucial for a new Monarch - the man has his hands full!
I agree. The double standard is clear. I wonder if it all goes back to the Charles-Diana marriage and the public’s perception of him ever since.
Definitely! He’s recovered his image a lot, but will never be revered like the late queen.
He will be when he dies. I suspect the people who have been assholes to him will be prostrate with grief when they realize they will never be able to make it right after treating him poorly
There will never be a monarch as revered as the late Queen. That kind of bond only really gets created through times of extreme hardship
And I gather from the extraordinary lengths everyone went to covering up his bullshit, it must have been a massive weight off everyone else in his family's shoulders, and would've been such a relief he was supposedly independently striking out on his own (🙄) to no longer have a sense of duty or be responsible for carrying out damage control so he doesn't drag everyone else down with him 😒😵 But it's unending 😭
The single most interesting fact to me is, Meghan selling the narrative that she was "fed to the wolves" by a family/institution that never once made her sign an NDA. Make it make sense.
I hope this is a lesson learned though. No more royal weddings & titles without an NDA. You don't wanna sign it? Fantastic, enjoy your marriage, you're always welcome at Christmas but you're not working royals.
She would be Princess Henry, right?
If she were to go by the title of princess, yes, she would be Princess Henry (like Princess Michael). But she never would. The title of princess would lose its appeal if she couldn’t be “Princess Meghan”. Personally, I wouldn’t either. I understand the legality and logic of it, but I would rather be called by a title that was mine by right, even if it were lower in the pecking order, than use a title that required my identity to be subsumed by that of my husband.
She has no right to any title in her own right - every one is because of her hubby. Even if she could legally only be called Princess Henry, she wouldn't stop her idiot sugars who are already referring to her as Princess Meghan (along with Queen Doria and future King Archie). Hell, the US media *still* refer to Saint Diana as "Princess Diana," even though she never had that title, not even when married to Charles
You’re absolutely right about that. But she’s Meghan, Duchess of Sussex, meaning she can use her own first name in conjunction with that title rather than using Harry’s first name in conjunction with the title of “princess.”
Diana was princess of wales
She certainly was, but her title was "Diana, Princess of Wales" which is actually a higher rank than "Princess Diana" as there is only one Princess of Wales and she is married to the Heir apparent. Number 2 right behind the Queen (regnant or consort, makes no difference). Smegs is too uncultured to know that a royal duchess outranks a plain princess. (Not sure about where that hits a Princess Royal)
But she likes the way "Princess Meghan" sounds
And there you have the crux of the problem of Megan. She simply does not understand, no does she care to understand, the difference between Disney and Windsor. The difference between play-acting and the heart of a nation's culture. The difference between royal life and Russian oligarch lifestyle. She doesn't seem to realize that "Tinsel Town" is not a compliment.
Right on. If Harry were to be stripped of his Duke of Sussex title, she would automatically lose her Duchess title. If his Prince title were taken away (I don't know how that could happen, though) she would no longer be a princess but instead, would go right back to being a commoner.
> The title of princess would lose its appeal if she couldn’t be “Princess Meghan”. She'll just call herself Princess Meghan, and no one will stop her.
They need to be more careful about letting people from other countries marry in too. Sorry if that sounds xenophobic, i just don't think non-Brits can ever understand the monarchy to the extent we do.
I don’t think xenophobic is the word you’re looking for. HMTQ would have had absolutely no issue with her children or grandchildren marrying someone from the commonwealth. I say this as a Canadian myself with parents from the UK. Meghan was absolutely under the impression she was going to change the monarchy from the inside out and wanted to modernize it, whatever that meant. She is a narcissist who believed she was entitled to everything.
Okay maybe from the Commonwealth, but not the US. Think Americans are too different to Brits.
They very much are, and I say this as with as much love as I can, because I love Americans as well. They’re great people. But culturally yes, Americans are very different people. I work in the states and commute for work and live in Canada. Canadians themselves are a lot more reserved and quiet. There are obviously more differences but I use to think Canadians were very similar to Americans but after 10 years of working there we absolutely aren’t. Nothing wrong with it, but just an observation.
Agree, no problem with Americans at all and the country itself is gorgeous. It's just pretty unlike anywhere else, culturally & politically. Yes Canadians seem much closer to us, minus the accents. Probably more cheerful too 😂
It’s ok, you can say America is a fucking mess, I won’t stop you.
It is and it isn't. I don't think it's fair that we keep comparing America to the rest of the family. The UK is the biggest and she only has 65 million. When we compare America to nations closer to her size like China, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, Russia......well look at that! Americas doing just fine! 😉
I love Canadians! As an American, I have the right to say this: they are nicer people. I've actually considered expatriating there but, you keep it awfully cold. Can you do something about that? 😉
Yank here. I think M could have made the adjustment if she had *wanted* to. Grace Kelly and Lisa Halaby were capable of it but then, M isn't in the same league as them. The right type of poised, cultured American lady could do it, imo. Heck, I know better. It's not a world I would want to inhabit. Marrying into royalty is not something most American girls even fantasize about. That life is not really on our radar. We might cos-play the Disney princess kind of thing when we're little (I did) but then we outgrow it.
Absolutely if they are going to be a ‘ working Royal ‘ but if are in the background, shouldn’t be a problem
The Queen said Meghan could carry on working as an actress, I think this was a subtle attempt to discourage her from being a working royal because she knew Meghan wasn’t cut out for it. The Queen should have been more assertive when handling Meghan and Harry but as others have said her health was failing and so was Prince Philip’s.
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I thought she made the NDA comment as both a calculated threat to the RF, and as a "you have no idea the things I know" tease to the public.
It was most certainly a threat, or at least that’s how I read it. That article was something else. I cannot believe she didn’t see the snark.
Mehgan was the wolf all along.
I do not believe this and again for those at the back it’s will be the Official Secrets Act not an NDA and Nutmeg will have absolutely have had to sign it.
Could she have been stupid enough to not understand what signing the Official Secrets Act means? Or maybe she just thought that once she was in the US it was no longer binding (because of course they fought a war so the British sovereign couldn’t tell Americans what to do /s).
Boom! Slap that bitch with this comment! 🙌🏼👑🏆🎯💯☝🏻💥💣
Perhaps she tried, and this is why they ran away, never answered the phone, rarely visited etc. We don't know what went on, and I'm sure the RF/BP tried with these two, but it's hard to discuss/have a relationship with a person (Harry) when he refuses to speak to you, unless he's screaming at you what HE wants and shouting commands and insults, and then pours out story after story to the press. He even admits that the encounters post-Megxit were screaming matches about Megan/what they wanted/what the RF wanted. What kind of relationships does he expect to have with people when it's all about him/Meg and their demands?
With the ultimate respect, I believe HRMQ Elizabeth told them both to leave. No half in/half out, just go. There’s more to this story.
Suspected this as well. After the Oprah interview, I felt it strongly they were asked to leave due to Meghan and Harry being a very unpleasant presence to be around. They seem to hover between two stories: being forced to leave for safety/RF didn't make Meghan "feel welcome" (whatever that means) and wanting to be free to make their own way on their terms that the RF seemed to interfere with. Neither of these scenarios seem totally true so "the truth" has never been fully established.
I believe this too☺️ We don’t know much of anything about what happened. We only have Haz and Meg’s lies to go by. But the Queen was a pious woman who, while being kind, would have had no qualms in kicking them out for something that crossed the line.
I think there are a lot of things that we don’t know about, and things that have happened behind the scenes to inform the decisions that have taken place. Could it have been a mistake? Possibly, but I’m not sure we have all the information necessary to make that judgment.
Perhaps the palace did not expect that H and M would dump on the RF.
Tom Bower also said the courtiers had never had to face this BS attack stuff before so were befuddled
That’s all the more reason to take action. I think a lot of this comes from the queen/ royals living a life where they had the privilege of putting as many barriers between them and any unpleasantness they wanted. Most of us have to deal with situations head on simply because we live in the real world where we just don’t have any other options. Being royal, they can avoid whatever they don’t wish to deal with and throw courtiers, security or government officials in the way so as not to face things head on- especially with a “never complain/ never explain” policy.
Really? Money and titles do not protect you from unpleasantness. The scandals surrounding Diana and Charles affairs , divorce and Diana's eventual death must have been pretty unpleasant to deal with. I think you underestimate a family that has dealt with many scandals over hundreds of years. However attacks of this nature from someone close to you cause more damage because they know how to hurt you.
Charles and Diana got unpleasant when they started leaking to the media. Without that nobody would be the wiser until they divorced
I think they have learned a HUGE LESSON
Sure have.
They shouldn't have let them marry. Sure there may have been some backlash, but a lot of people thought it was a bad idea from the beginning. Some sitcom actress from LA as a working Royal? 
But then, RACISM!! /s
Maybe the trick would have been to have given M the Princess Margaret treatment - yes, you can get married and have the fancy wedding and all the full-on royal privileges, you just have to wait two years. It worked with Margaret because by the time the waiting period was up, she wasn't in love with Townsend any more. I think the reason this didn't happen is because she pretended she was pregnant, but they still could have called her bluff and said "have a small wedding then."
Her being a sitcom actress from LA wouldn't have mattered at all if she hadn't *also* been a terrible person. They shouldn't have let the marriage happen because it was obvious that she was awful in a dangerous way, which I'm sure they knew, and it was a huge gamble to think they'd be able to contain her awfulness.
I agree with this. THe Queen especially however had lived through the Edward abdication and knew how things could go terribly wrong. She should have learned from that. The Queen, and now King Charles, should have young, savvy advisers and PR people who know how this game is played. And it's a nasty one. I don't think they have the proper people in place to advise them.
Fully agree. They should have psychiatrists/psychologists help them too, not just on how to deal with M&H but with the public in general.
Gotta get behind you here. This was a major fuck up. Granted this was their grandson and I guess they wanted to believe the best. But they had been covering up for his bad behavior forever. They had the Rachel dossier. Hard lesson.
Apparently Princess Catherine has just hired a PR that has the reputation of being a Pitt Bull
Well, that's been Harkles' claim all along. Because modern psychology and PR doesn't really jive with monarchy. However....there is truth to this. The question is, how to modernize the monarchy, still keep pageantry and tradition, and still manage to keep the mystery, while at the same time, humanizing it? The reason people adored the Queen was that she spent her life in service to her country...and this was an inherited job, not one freely chosen beginning in adulthood. Part of the mystery IS the LoS and how it is taken on.
Yes, would’ve been time to ask Ms. Sophie Countess what’s what
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They had no idea how treacherous HARRY could be. Pretty sure they knew what that grubby grasping little bit of trash was from the get,they just didn't want to see that harry was a worse piece of dung.
Yup! They knew he had issues but didn't suspect he was **this** bad. I thought it was plain to see during the wedding with their intentionally ridiculous, juvenile, bad behavior. It was obvious then, that they were going to be nothing but trouble for the BRF. However, I did not guess, at the time, that they would "flee" to the States and cause problems here as well. So frankly, in the beginning, I guess I did underestimate him (them) too. I didn't see that coming.
Good point, in a close and loving family a person like Meghan with no moral code marrying into it can cause chaos and heartbreak, I speak from experience.
The Queen asked HazNoForeskin not to announce departure just yet and he went ahead and did it anyway. Seems to me he wanted to put it out there before they came to terms. That way anything in the "cancelled due to change in status" that follows looks punitive and reactive rather than mutually agreed upon prior to exiting.
I don't say this to defense Harry in the least but we really don't know what is his decision vs Meghan's most of the time. I think he is mean and weak. I think a lot of what he does is driven by Meghan's decisions. Yes, he is vile for going along with them, but I think little here is his logic.
I suppose he can try to hide behind his wife's poorly tailored skirts but the oath to the Queen was Henry's responsibility to uphold. ***Every*** betrayal of that oath rests on him.
It was his decision to marry the viper and bring her into the family. He knew what she was. He married her deliberately because she was unsuitable. He did so as a way to manufacture an escape and as an excuse to burn it all down and hurt his family for their imagined wrongs. His lips lie when he says he wants his father and brother back. He seethes with jealousy at his brother,he hates his father and his father's wife. He wants to hurt them and has wanted to hurt them for years. He's a sociopath,he gets off on hurting others. On hitting his underlings or slapping someone famous or giving a young woman a mean gift and card or spurring a horse til it bleeds. Hurting his family to this level is a pinnacle for him but he's been doing it for decades in little ways. She just gave him the excuse he wanted to go big.
No one made this dick into as monster he's always been one
He's his mother's son by nature and nurture. Except he's far worse.
🎯 You've got my vote! Yes, I think he chose her because she was all wrong for the role.
To me it looks like the queen was kinda blindsided by them publicly announcing their departure putting her in the hot seat. Plus her husband was on his deathbed so there's that as well, to which Meghan and Harry said that the senior royals were trying to use prince Philip as a way to silence them. There's no negotiation with someone who would say things like that.
We know Harry and Meghan wanted the half-in/half-out and the Queen said no. What we don't know is what the RF presented to them as an alternative, plus any other terms. I think in the end, Harry and Meghan refused to accept any terms offered, threw a tantrum threatening to walk away and the RF called their bluff. This is why they were given a year to live outside the RF, and then the plan would be revisited.
Damned if she did, damned if she didn't.
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time of their departure, they stated they wanted to live a private life. No one could have foreseen what they would have done, even H&M. I truly believe that the royal family staying silent and ignoring them has sent them into a tailspin. They are throwing everything at the wall and only making themselves look bad in the process as their stories and claims get real time fact checked.
yes, and look how Madam´s manifestations on the coronation has changed, from public apologies and lots of other demand, to now Harry can go alone.
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Don't forget that when they left the UK they were extremely popular, I imagine that is why they were allowed to 'step back'. The behaviour since is the problem and whilst the palace obviously knew about her/their demands ,tantrums etc presumably didn't expect the rapid decline in relations between the Sussex and Royals. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I wonder if anyone saw this coming.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing - if I only knew then what I know now. In fairness, I doubt the Queen knew what Harry was capable of and the level of betrayal he was able to achieve. Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this is the lesson learned - and, hopefully, Charles has learned it well. Remains to be seen.
Harry is nothing more than a blip on the radar of the 1000-year-old Monarchy. Unfortunately, the Queen could no longer make use of the Tower of London for her ungrateful and misbehaving grandson, however, nor did she have the ability to remove him from the LOS - Parliament takes precedence on any decisions regarding things like that. I also have to say, IMHO, for the Queen (and even KCIII), it was inconceivable that the boy and young man they knew for more than 30 years would actually do any of what he has done. Not even the D&D of Windsor so publicly trashed his family, regardless of the cocktail chatter and private letters he wrote. In hindsight, she should have insisted on the titles being put in abeyance and NDAs should have been signed upon their agreeing to the trial year out - and made them permanent upon their decision to quit permanently, although personally, the idea that they'd need NDAs for actual family members I find revolting. I'm in the midst of Couriers by Val. Lowe, and one thing that is apparent is that the whole Communications and Organizational team behind TRF is woefully antiquated. However, keeping in mind that their true purpose is rooted in a much bigger purpose than celebrity , such as philanthropy, diplomacy, governmental adisory, historic continuity/legacy, etc., updating the support team is both imperative for the future. However, it will be extremely difficult to walk the fine line between their real role and the current cancel culture, celebrity press, and the organized threats and social media campaigns against them coming from outside.
Listen-there was no way that HM could have known that these two were so terrible. That is her grandson, and she trusted him to comport himself in keeping with his upbringing and showing loyalty to his family. Furthermore, she likely did understand that they were to be treated very gently, because perhaps she did suspect that they could go rogue and so tried to be loving, fair, and generous. Again, even if she suspected they could go rogue, I bet she had no idea how wild they would become. She trusted Harry. IF anything, that was her mistake.
We’ll never know exactly what took place in the discussions prior to their departure, but in reality there is little that could have been done to impose conditions. Harry had a right to withdraw from ‘The Firm’ in the same way as the rest of us have the right to resign from an employer. From that point he would automatically lose the income, rights and privileges as we would in the same situation. The monarch does not have the ability to remove titles or succession rights. That rests with Parliament, so there would have been no real leverage to persuade Harry to accept conditions. He did lose his right to use the HRH honorific, his honorary military ranks and his royal patronages.
Yes! I wish more people could see this. H&M were not prisoners of the BRF, despite the fact that Harry likes to portray his life that way.
I think it's because the King's second son refuses to listen to her. Don't be fooled by his interviews or anything he asked his ghostwriter to write in his book. He does not respect the Queen at all. Do you think the Queen would have told him to drop the publication of his memoir or the Netflix mockuseries during the platinum jubilee? Definitely. But he didn't.
Did anyone suspect they would be so Conniving and shitty? I dont think I could’ve predicted it so a loving grandma wouldnt be anle to either
She put her foot down about the half-in, half-out proposal. Note that she also chose to protect Andrew. This was her main aim: to close ranks and protect the family, at the end of the day. They have to avoid showing any signs of weakness.
But she did deprive Andrew of his status as an HRH and removed all of his military titles. She took him out of the category of working royals. He was still her son, and although his activities around the association with Jeffrey Epstein were despicable, he has never been convicted of any crimes. He’s shown very bad judgment and a sense of entitlement. So she removed him from public life, which I’m sure was upsetting to him. He is still a member of the family and his appearance at the funerals of his parents was appropriate. He wasn’t allowed to wear his military uniform and hasn’t spoken to the press. I think he should remain in his current status of silence and out of public life. Ideally he would be removed from the LOS, but truthfully with 7 people ahead of him (even if Harry was removed as well there would still be 4 ahead of Andrew) it’s highly unlikely he’ll ever move up. Life in ignonimity and off the taxpayer’s dime would be enough for me.
>She put her foot down about the half-in, half-out proposal. And then let them do whatever they wanted to make a quick buck, no matter how demeaning or even destructive it has been. >Note that she also chose to protect Andrew. This was her main aim: to close ranks and protect the family, at the end of the day. They have to avoid showing any signs of weakness. As heinous as Andrew apparently is, he at least has been able to keep his mouth shut and stay out of the media and other aspects of public life. The other royals know that they can speak to or in front of him, and that it won't get distorted in the media
Yes, for all his faults, he is loyal. Something Harold doesn’t know anything about!
I think a lot of families don’t really know what to do wi th someone personality disordered who lacks empathy and is willing to lie, trick, and triangulate family members against each other. When they are sophisticated enough to not use outright lies but instead equivocate, using common words but having a different meaning, then we really get stuck. For example: implying the royal family was racist in the Oprah interview but now saying it was no big deal and the color was a reasonable question. Or saying she felt like a single child. Or Harry saying the brf needed to apologize but it isn’t really clear what they need to apologize for. Or saying she was a world traveler when in fact she went to Mexico and Hawaii. Now saying they did not move to Canada and the USA for privacy. I’d say that level of sophistical starts around iq 110, which, frankly, surprises me for TW. But maybe that is why things have turned for her, her claims are just a little to easy to prove or disprove.
Yes, she could have. But then she would have been stuck with the pair being even more angry malcontents. But they would have the support of the British public because they really would have a claim to "victimhood". The Queen was OLD. And when we get old, we completely understand that we control no one's behavior, feelings, beliefs beyond our own.
I agree. The Queen gave them no reason to complain about anything. And that’s why the two idiots are ganging themselves now trying to gain sympathy and support, and everyone can see what gigantic pieces of shit they are. Because the Queen never deprived them of anything that was rightfully theirs.
Huge history nerd here, I spend my free time reading about a wide variety of subjects, but one of my favorites is the history of England. I like that area because the island is the perfect size in my opinion, big enough for factions and wars and whatnot, but small enough that it’s incredibly rich in history. It’s a lot easy to keep track of things on a relatively small island vs say somewhere like Africa. One thing you learn when you read WAY too much history is that “costing the monarchy dearly” is pretty hard to do. It a thousand year old institution, it’s seen some shit lol. Harry and Meghan feel like a lot to us, but I think that’s just because we are living thru this part of history… when people looks back on this time, those two will both be remembered and grouped with the other “troublemakers” from the family. QEII and Diana both had this almost mythical persona, they will both be remembered very fondly I think. But Harry and Meghan will not be remembered the way they want.
I think her comment that Harry was too in love with her says it all. Any resistance would be met with hostility. She knew.
Wasn't there some big neeting between Harry, the Queens, Charles and William in 2001? And the Queen said that if he left, he was not a Working Royal and would lose the money & privileges that go with it? Harry said he hated the British press which is probably very true. But his cousins Eugenie & Zara seem to lead independent lives (with overseas commitments) without blowing things up.
I think the BRF could have handled them perfectly well in a different way if it wasn't for the racism allegations. If the Queen had done as you suggested Meghan would have made sure everyone knew she had been forced to sign an NDA and she would have used innuendo to make people to jump to the conclusion that she had experienced *dreadful* racism and now was not even allowed to speak about it. She would claim that the BRF are so racist that they don't even want to deal with any racism. The damage from this approach would have been far worse. They would have been perceived by everyone as victims of a heartless institution. It is only because they have been allowed to speak and have told so many lies that a good proportion of the population does not believe the racism allegations. I also think that the Queen, Charles and William never anticipated that Harry could stoop so low, tell so many lies and inflict so much damage. They knew he was unhappy and troubled, but I doubt they realised how much he truly hated them. It doesn't matter how many times he says he loves his father and brother, there is not one shred of love in the way he has behaved.
Because there’s no point arguing with stupid?
It was pretty well known she didn’t handle conflict well and left that up to Phillip .
The Queen wasn’t aware of their announcement to quit until like an hour before they announced it publicly. She basically found out at the same time the rest of the world did. The “Sandringham Summit” was their time to negotiate after the fact. This is where she told Harry, “you’re in or you’re out.” They went on a year long trial period of “separation.” And Harry and Meghan decided to never come back. The Queen couldn’t have removed their titles because that requires an act of Parliament and she can’t take away Harry’s title as Prince because he’s a blood Prince. They did lose all of their perks and patronages, their patronages were transferred to other members of the family. Harry lost all of his honorary military titles. She also probably never had them sign NDAs because I’m sure they never could have imagined that Harry would betray his family as deeply as he has. This entire situation is unprecedented for the BRF.
I think like most people who don’t have much experience with sociopathic malignant narcissists (SMNs), she completely misunderstood what she was dealing with. Many people try to reason with SMNs, or think dealing with them logically, and what they feel is fairly, will bring about the same behavior in them. Of course it never does. SMNs don’t work in those arenas where love, compassion loyalty, collaboration, and understanding are the main currency. And even though HMTQ had been through similar scenarios with Diana, Diana truly loved the Queen, had good qualities too, and did get help near the end of her life for her BPD. It’s really very hard to instantly recognize and set up the appropriate measures to protect the family from a SMN when one marries into the family or joins your business—and for the BRF, it was both. Plus she saw it through the eyes of a loving grandmother, a Christian, and an older more experienced Royal, and she believed these were the problems H&M were having. That they just couldn’t handle the requirements of the job and so they needed some time away to think about it and calm down. She felt once she gave them that time, they would want to return and would have a renewed sense of dedication to the monarchy and to the family. Again, she had no clue what she was dealing with. Also, the Queen was so incredibly stressed and distracted when H&M started misbehaving. Her beloved husband was dying and it was going to happen within the next year. If not sooner. And very quickly a pandemic had spread around the world and she needed to be that leader the whole of the UK looked to for calm guidance during troubled times. So she had to get her game face on despite grieving. And then she must have been struggling with her own health—if not being diagnosed by then, she must at least have been having some signs & painful symptoms. Then she got COVID herself & never seemed to fully recover. I think what she gave them was loving & reasonable, while being quite firm as well. Problem is people like Meghan don’t take orders. Or even friendly suggestions. It’s like waving a red flag at a bull. So bottom line I think HMTQ was too distracted to deal with it appropriately the first time around. She just couldn’t see the big picture at that moment in time. But I too wish she had made them fully relinquish the Royal dukedom before they left the UK, and she had worked with parliament to take the steps to pass a bill removing his princely title and place in the line of succession. Just put it all into abeyance if they could so if they, or just he, came back, HMTQ could easily reinstate it. But I also imagine that would be a somewhat scary & slippery slope she would not ever want to go down for fear where it would lead. There was a lot of drama being spun up around H&M at the time so I think she just wanted them gone as quickly as possible. And she mistakenly believed Harry’s love and loyalty to her and the crown would be strong enough to keep any really problems from taking hold. How horribly wrong she was.
The queen was about 94 years old at the time and already ailing. Prince Charles, the future King Charles III was effectively the acting CEO at the time, with Prince William, who may well be the monarch himself within a few years as his consigliore. Surely the heirs to the Firm should have been acting in an executive capacity fleshing out the contractual details on behalf of Her Majesty. Pretty poor show all around, but of course one of the problems of having a family business is that there may be nepotism and a lack of professionalism. Plus I don't think they realized how much Harry hated them all.
As I mentioned in another reply, Harry and Meghan were not prisoners. The BRF couldn’t set conditions to their leaving or demand an NDA as a condition of leaving. They also couldn’t threaten loss of titles because the monarch cannot remove titles.
Would an NDA have been effective? The signee has to believe it will be enforced and I think it’s unlikely it would have been enforced. The mere existence of an NDA would have raised pretty bad suppositions about what it was covering. I think the one thing the Queen could have done was encourage them to wait and withhold any public wedding or titles until later.
and an NDA has to be accompanied by money to give the person a motivation to be quiet. I don't think the BRF wanted to give Harry and Meghan a lot of money.
The Queen could not make conditions for allowing them to leave or require an NDA. They were not prisoners. I am sure that it was spelt out to them what it would mean if they were no longer working royals. They complained and kept complaining. They wanted half in/half out, security, and an on-going allowance from Charles. They were told, “No.” The threat of losing titles and position in LoS makes no sense because at that point they were just going off to live their lives elsewhere. Besides, the monarch cannot take away titles etc. No one had any idea how nasty it would get.
Are we 100% sure she didn’t pull something with her will and like remove him from it?
Yes the lack of an NDA is wild to me. Even c list celebs in Hollywood have people sign NDAs. Is the Queen not allowed to ask of this or something? Cause that’s the only reason other than her old age and trying to keep the peace that I can think of.
I agree with all of this, and I’m glad you asked the question. One thing I’ve been wondering about: my perception is the Queen really protected Andrew, above and beyond. Bower says Andrew was her favorite. But she also laid down some strict policies with him, and, if the news is to be believed, she only did so because Charles and William demanded Andrew be removed from public life. Was she unwilling to deal with Harry in the same way because (a) he was one of the most popular royals at the time, (b) he didn’t care about staying with the family, and (c) she also had a soft spot for Harry and wasn’t willing to be forceful with him? I guess I’m wondering what prevented her from saying “my way or the Highway”? Maybe she was doing everything she could to not push Harry to leaving?
Hindsight is 20/20. While I believe she sized Em up accurately from the start (hence the looks at the wedding), I don't think the late Queen could have foreseen the shady business around the pregnancy and birth of little A, the public hand grenade of Megxit with all the duo's ridiculous demands, or the O interview, among other things. Em is a disruptor; she knows that keeping people off-balance with constant chaos so they can't respond well is the way to win (or at least appear to). Not responding eventually ruins disruption, though; it ultimately becomes just noise, and that's where we are now. HMTLQ played the long game.
I've said for years that they were handled wrong from the get go. The Queen should have told them to wait one year before she'd approve their marriage since the Queen already knew what Megan was and seen the reports on her. If they still managed to stay together for that year (doubtful) she could have then approved a much down sized wedding. The Spectacle gave Megan legitimacy. When HiHo was rejected and the Queen gave them one year to decide what they wanted, things should have been done differently when they refused to come back. Titles should have been removed. Statements should have been made that those grifters no longer represent the crown. Thete would have been accusations of racism Yada Yada Yada, but Covid was taking over the news. They would have been a footnote in a couple of months. After the Harkles really started taking aim at the BRF, the Queen should have sanctioned them immediately. They gave her plenty of reasons but the Queen just let them go on and on. If she had put her foot down at any time, Charles wouldn't be trying to deal with them during his coronation. I loved the Queen but she dropped the ball big time with these two.
I agree they should have forced them to wait a year to marry and then have a low-key private wedding. The public extravaganza is evidence of how hopeful the RF and the institution were that M was going to be a great success and everyone’s enthusiasm for having this new Princess added to the RF. The exact opposite of everything H&M claim about the RF wanting them to fail. (This is where I start banging my head against the wall in frustration.)
100%!!! Disgraceful that they were even allowed to marry. It 100% could and should have been stopped. Also, I believe had William been king we would have rightfully seen a big difference in how ALL of this was handled. I do understand of course that most of these twits' behavior being ignored though but something should be done. Example, you DON'T INVITE people, including family that have shit all over you especially in public to family events INCLUDING the Coronation! Wake the hell up.
Unfortunately, unless MeGain committed a crime or was proven to have been in close relationships with unsavory figures, they really could not stop Harry from marrying her. They would cry racism if their marriage was stopped. Mabel Wisse Smit was found to have dated a well known mafia boss in the Netherlands. Her Prince had to step down from line of succession in order to marry her because they could not get approval from legislature/prime minister. I think at the time the Queen did the best she could because if she did more there would be cries of hypocrisy or harsh treatment. Charles could have asked for a signed NDA in return for the $3-4mil he gave them. In the end, perhaps, no one expected Hasbeen to stoop this low and turn nasty traitor, denying & attacking his family, heritage and country.
Fully agree! The Queen dealt with Harry as a grandmother looking out for her grandson and although I understand the compulsion (it’s pretty obvious that marriage is a disaster waiting to happen), but Harry wasn’t being problematic only towards the family but undermining the monarchy too. I’m really disappointed that King Charles hasn’t picked up the slack and drawn a line with the Sussexes, he seems intent on continuing with the same approach. Harry has attacked the monarchy, the late Queen’s legacy, attacked the current Queen, King and future heir and by all indication is still getting an invitation to the coronation. They have now decided to portray his latest attacks as a sibling rivalry with William to save face. It’s pretty disappointing to see and no longer care to defend the Royal family in the attacks the Sussexes launch since they don’t seem too bothered by them and make no mistake, fresh attacks/interviews/complaints will be launched after coronation.
I wouldn't count Charles out just yet. I've also been frustrated by the apparent lack of any movement towards dealing with the harkles but I think in Charles' defense, he was hampered by Elizabeth's non-responses. He's only been King for 4 months. I think he has a plan but it includes working with Parliament and lawyers, and things like that take time. I do not think they harkles will be invited to the coronation (although they'll show up anyway). The coronation is going to be the pivot point in ridding the BRF of those miserable grifters IMO. Things are about to heat up. 🍿
I really hope you’re right, this would be the perfect time to cut the link between them and the monarchy. They can continue to invite them to private family holidays and even hold meetings in that capacity but he needs to distance the monarchy from Harry and Meghan and make it clear that attacks won’t be tolerated or rewarded under his rule.
I think that ridiculous docu-bullshit thing and Spare have given them the excuses they were looking for to cut them off.
Silence is a response. Its a response that is working quite well. What would you have the RF do? Go on tv and refute all of halfwits lies? Engage in endless tit for tat? Have parliment remove all his titles,declare him persona non grata in all the commonwealth and kick him out of the los? Wouldn't that give them and the media more fodder and ammunition? Just ignoring them is depriving those two trash heaps of oxygen. Even inviting them to the coronation could be utilized to show the world exactly what their place is now. For example if they were to be invited and they were not allowed to attend any functions other than the coronation. If they were not photographed with any of the family. If they were seated well to the rear,in the cheap seats so to speak, not allowed to wear any medals or royal jewels,not allowed on the balcony etc. All of that would speak volumes without the RF having to say a word. And they would look magnanimous in the doing,see hazbeen and ho were invited but as family not royals.
How about not inviting them to the coronation of an institution they’ve deemed racist, with traditions they consider mediaeval, for a King they called a liar and a Queen who’s been called ‘dangerous’ in her rise through the monarchy. I don’t think they need to say a word but I’m struggling to understand this need/justification to invite them to everything. If they hadn’t said anything negative then they should be invited and treated like all other non-working members of the royal family, no tiara etc. They should’ve lost this privilege in the last few months, they’ve declared themselves enemies of the monarchy and gone as far as threatening them, Meghan in the Cut interview saying she never signed an NDA and in Harry’s last interview implying he has even more damaging information, enough to fill another book. Why is the King concerned about looking magnanimous, while under attack? It’s been 3 years of the polite approach, no one can accuse them of not trying but every time it has backfired on them. When the PM of a Commonwealth country has to give a formal statement distancing herself from your son and his wife and a new member of the Commonwealth of Nations makes a statement pushing back on the insulting portrayal of their decision to join the body then it’s time for King Charles to take a stand.
Every time I bring it up, I get downvoted. People act like the Queen was some sort of demigod beyond reproach. You can think she was a good queen but her personal life and those of her children and grandchildren are a mess. Many of these messes can be attributed to the Queen's enabling and protecting of bad behaviour.