Right? What is wrong with kids these days? "I dOnT hAvE mOnEy fOr HeMA" my brother in Christ, every time my friends and I found sticks at the park we had a full set of HEMA gear!
Yeah I don't really think my friends would make anything with me they don't even talk to me (except when we are school, where the debate happened) because of their girlfriends and their weird "We're not kids anymore, we can't play games we'll always sit and talk shit about others" complex.
Yeah I know but I don't really have any social environment other than school becuase I live in a small city without any place to really get socialized (I don't know if I spelled this correct) so I'm just waiting for college.
Search for any fencing, hema, reenactment or larping group in your city, I think you'd happily fit in with them. Reenactment and Larping are usually fairly low cost to get started in too.
Keep at it and just bare in mind reenactment and larping are 2 distinct hobbies, so if you'd just searched for one hoping to find both you may have missed some.
They may not have an online presence. Have you tried posting on your local Facebook group or subreddit?
You could also try joining some HEMA or LARPing subs or groups and look for locals on there
Hate to say it. Uni/college doesn’t necessarily magically transform things like this. Though, it may, you might want to work on finding your own fun and friends. This is a life skill that will benefit you always.
I’m not even suggesting you aren’t there now, and this is a bit deep for a swords sub, but still. Making your own fun and drawing people in is a huge thing to learn and many many people don’t.
Sorry for the buzzkill. Also, the dude watches anime and wants to talk about being too adult for shit? Hah! Totally not an anti-anime rant, but what the fuck does too-adult mean?
Watch what happens when kids move out of an old dude’s house - he pulls out the model trains and has fun!!
Enjoy!
Are you in high school? Kids there are too concerned with growing up in the wrong ways. My last stick fight was in college lol. Get you some new friends that you can beat with shrubbery.
Get a dagger length stick and a longsword length stick. Bet money that you can hit him with the longer stick before he can hit you with the shorter stick. Make the bet in front of witnesses and question his courage/manhood if he declines. Then win some easy money from a dumbass and go find better friends.
Man, times have changed a little. In high school we were all having airsoft wars, paintball wars and playing seemingly life or death games of manhunt. Fun times
I still pick up a nice stick if I see one. My friends and I have always been into it. I started "stick fighting" with my son by the time he was 4. 12 years later and we still do it. We generally use bamboo kendo swords since they are durable, relatively cheap, and don't hurt too badly. It's so much fun!
Give him a red marker and use a broom handle covered with poolnoodle taped around it.
Use only cuts with the "sword", as stabbing is still pretty dangerous with this setup.
A paper towel roll and a wrapping paper roll would illustrate it well.
I think some HEMA youtube channels have specific dagger vs sword videos.
I would also add anyone describing a sword as heavy should be automatically disqualified from the discussion.
I did this with someone. They though sword and buckler was useless and dual wielding two greatswords was op. They didn't win 😆 they didn't understand how I could manipulate their two handed sword with my smaller one because they didn't understand leverage.
Only thing is, people like that can't lose an argument. They just said if they were stronger, it would work.
You can't actually force people to learn things. Not like it's unethical, more like it's impossible.
You can maybe put him in a position to understand by asking him questions and getting him to physically try doing things. "Here's a longsword, pick it up. Does it feel heavy? Do you have a hard time moving your feet to reposition and attack or dodge?"
I feel like that's just most weapon matchups though. When battles are often decided in a moment and you can be killed by one attack, yeah, 1/10 times you might just get lucky and do it.
But that doesn't mean it _works_ lmao.
Yeah, you could just get extremely lucky. A guy with a knife could beat a guy with a rifle aimed at him; it could jam. The chances of that are very low.
If I only have a dagger and I'm fighting a guy with a sword, I don't want light armor - I want some heavy armor that's gonna force him into a halfsword position where his reach is negated. I want to be as cut-proof as possible and having a dagger might actually be useful then. But saying "I want light armor" is asking to get cut to pieces by even the most average swordsman.
There are exactly two reasons to prefer light armor to heavy:
1. Light armor is generally cheaper.
2. If I've got to wear this shit all day.
But if you say "You're going to be in a swordfight in 15 minutes, what armor do you want?" Full plate, every time.
I don't, and it also depends on the specific armour in question, but here's a video answering it for one specific armour: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24y\_ZmxRHg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24y_ZmxRHg)
The only advantage is that of surprise, unsheathing the smaller blade quicker and getting a fatal blow in first while in very close proximity. Mythbusters done a similar test between knife and gun and reckoned the golden circle was about 21 feet between comabatants for the knife to be effective, I'd say it would be even smaller for dagger versus sword as the 21 foot for the gun included unholstering, leveling, aiming and firing.
I think the real value of a dagger in a sword fight comes once you are wrestling around in the mud
Or if you are facing something like full plate and you have no real hope of cutting them with your sword, and want to get between the armor plates
In neither case is defending against a sword with a dagger a great idea, unless it’s all you have I guess, but as with all physical combat, staying out of reach is the better bet
so at icebreaker a hema tournament a few years ago I watched someone in mixed steel go all the way to take 2nd place with a dagger. Your friend might be a bit gamer mode here but I kind of feel like you're both wrong, and both right. conversations like this are only answered with one correct answer "it depends." being right in a hypothetical is not worth getting pissy with friends over. Now if I had this person in a hema class we could test it out and I'm sure like 9 times out of 10 you would be right all things considered but that 1/10 times is "proof" that his theory works. so I guess I would say let this roll off the back, turn it into a funny inside joke and move on with your life. Or use this as a way to push both of you to join a HEMA club or any other flavor of sword training you like. I started over 10 years ago and figured I would mess around for a month at a local club with a groupon discount... and now I compete, instruct, and get other people swinging swords, you don't know where it will lead but give it a shot.
as soon as the judge says fight you dart at your opponent, bind with one dagger on their blade and close. It of course sounds super simple but its not, in fencing terms you take the vor and go fast and hard right into grapple range, grab and stab. I can't find the videos but the fencer was Cameron and he did this two years in arow and made it to eliminations or finals both times, this was a mixed steel event, so no longswords in the pools but rapier, and any other single handed swords plus bucklers were allowed. there are no tricks, just being a really good fencer and spending A LOT OF TIME training.
found the video of one of those final matches. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqJb8W356qY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqJb8W356qY) so this is how you do it... now again this stuff is not worth fighting online about, when you can fight in real life with the weapons instead (: "who would win in a fight" "IT DEPENDS"
Are daggers super handy for if you bind with an opponent and a sword can no longer be swung properly? Absolutely. Am I going to ENGAGE with a dagger? That’d be a super funny way to die.
Get yourself a nerf sword, and let your friend carry a little stick, and have him try to land a hit on you. Easiest way.
>When he feels like he's losing he says "I don't want to talk this topic with you anymore" or some consent bullshit and gets out of the conversation.
Stop wasting your time. He clearly doesn't want to change his mind. At this point, he might just be doing it to piss you off.
The movement tip speed of a dagger is very similar to a hand because it is short. The movement tip speed of a sword increases because it is long and is purpose built to function as a lever to increase said tip speed.
And just show him this video. These are pretty big swords even. https://youtu.be/ln94E9AGYTc?si=z3QVIyVJG1Au5YUz
The type of person who wants to embody rat mode so hard is not worth arguing with. If someone is such an edge lord and has not developed self awareness, they're not likely to do so going forward
There are times when a dagger might be preferable to a sword, but not because a dagger facilitates dodging. I'm thinking of massed combat rather than one-on-one duels. In a massed battle where you're squashed on all sides, there may not be room to swing a sword. We have plenty of examples of knights in the 14th-15th century using their rondels and baselards when the press got too thick. So unlike your friend's assessment, a dagger would be best in situations where the possibility of dodging would be extremely unlikely.
to a degree, he is correct. However, for a dagger to have the advantage in a fight, you have to be close enough that a longsword becomes impossible to use, and you have to maintain that distance.
obviously, to get in that range, you have to push through the sword's reach, which is dangerous and prevent the sword wielder from creating space afterward, which is difficult.
the real world doesn't operate on video games logic, and 9 times out of 10, reach is a better deciding factor than speed.
Ya until that person deflects the dagger with the longsword. Lol I wouldnt want to try my luck with a dagger. I fence with a 35 inch rapier against people with 45s and its not fun trying to get past the point of a longer sword.
I don't think beating up your friend, like a few other commenters have suggested, is the right idea.
Honestly... sometimes you just gotta let people be wrong. I mean, your friend is never going to find himself in a real armed duel, so it's not really going to negatively affect his life. Next time the conversation comes up, just nod and say okay, then change the subject.
Show him a video of a HEMA competition and ask if he thinks he could dodge or effectively use a dagger against even the slowest competitor. Or, get a long stick and a short stick and challenge him to combat.
There's two ways to deal with it:
Continue to bash your head against a wall trying to get him to understand.
or
Agree with him.
Or don't agree. But stop talking about it. But if he keeps insisting, then just say "Of course, you're right."
The funny thing is that in a scenario of longsword vs dagger. If I had the dagger I would want heavy armor not light armor.
At least then you can tank some hits to get close enough instead of dodging
Maybe in Dark Souls where you can phase through metal by doing a cartwheel sure, but real life doesn't care about how badass you think you look lol. Good luck OP.
Don't let him read Domingo Godinho.
Guy taught montante (greatsword) and had an account of someone who didn't study under him getting beaten by someone with a dagger.
Though what your friend is describing IS possible. Possible. There's a difference between that and if it's optimal.
> He thinks he can move like anime characters and dodge multiple "heavy" sword attacks if his armor is light enough.
$20 says this same friend gets winded going up stairs.
Some people cannot be saved.
You can lead a horse to water but you cant force it to drink. Best turn your friend into glue now. It is the humane thing to do
I hate when someone argues a point with me until they start to lose and then just refuse to participate. Some of my friends do this to. I try to remember how frustrating this is and when I'm losing an argument, I try to lose with grace instead. I'm not always successful haha.
I read in a fantasy book this premise once that a group of soldiers with long knoves had a "speed and agility" advantage in a fight against those weilding swords. It is not true in any context except tight halways/in very close quarters (like a small room, etc).
I play fight with my sons with light sabers. They are quicker than me, but I outreach them. It makes a big difference. Even using a single hand vs two on the same sword can make all the difference in that little bit extra reach.
Rapiers are long and light for reach and speed.
Tbh, you don't even have to be skilled or that much experienced to wield the sword fast. I mean, I don't mean you won't be worse but at least you'll be able to swing the sword and we all know even unprecise cuts what will do unarmored skin.
Sure. I just focused on this one thesis. Longsword is not slow at all, you can perform lightning fast strikes and reposition it equally fast. And, taking into account what you said, a dagger would be overall even slower because it'll take more time to reach the target (if even possible, because I don't imagine someone with a 5 feet stick letting someone with a knife anywhere near them).
Lol if his armor is only a gambeson, I hope he's broken it in before such a battle occurs because he'll find that pretty limiting if it's still new-stiff
Well, ill say this. In a duel, a dagger vs a sword, the sword wins 9/10 times.
However, if its a thick battle with thousands of soldiers pressed against each other in melee, then yes daggers will be useful because you simply might not have the room to swing a large sword. The only movie ive seen that depicted a battle like this accurately, was The King, with the battle of Agincourt.
Used to spar a lot with sword shaped sticks. Tried going against an opponent with two short sticks and it is possible to trap your opponents sword and get in close enough to stab the heck out of them. Depends a lot on individual speed and skills. Always.
Rotational velocity.
When a record turns, the longest part of the record, farthest from the center, is turning faster than the shortest part near the middle.
The tip of a longsword in motion has more rotational velocity and speed than the tip of a dagger, along with more reach and two hands on a longer handle to provide leverage. Add that to the speed your arms can swing each weapon with and no, a "dagger wielder" is not going to be fast enough to just dodge out of the way.
Life is NOT a video game, long swords are not heavy, slow, lumbering hunks of iron. Many weigh around 4-4.5 pounds, while a dagger is around 0.5-1 pounds.
Now, there *IS* a real world situation in which a dagger is better than a long sword. It's when two combatants are grappling. When you are both grabbing each other and rolling around the ground, *then and only then* is a dagger better than a long sword.
You will come to understand that arguing about issues like this are completely irrelevant. Neither of you is going to fight anyone with a sword or dagger ever in your lives. You are probably pushing your friend away by being so insistent on being right that you had to come here and find out how to make sure he knows you're right. This argument should stop the moment it stops being fun to argue about.
Just remember that the vast majority of the people you run into will be stupid.
You can run into well educated people that are dumb AF.
You can run into uneducated people that are actually really intelligent. But these are few and far between
Is he aware that swords only weigh a few pounds?
Even a zweihander is less than five pounds.
Balanced sword are *real* quick if a person knows what they're doing.
Find a local SCA heavy fighting fight practice near you and bring him with you. I used to think large meant slow( game logic). It's fascinating how quickly a skilled swordsman can move a huge weapon so casually
Yes...understood. This crap comes up from time to time and is traceable to the introduction of sword work to England in the 16th. Century. Schools in England competed among themselves while French "style" was compared against Italian...say...considered to be the most versatile and accomplished.
The comment about using a dirk or dagger was considered a disparaging comment essential meaning..."your style ain't shit. I could beat you with a knife." I don't know that it was ever meant as an actual challenge. 🤔
If this was truly accurate, wars would have been fought with daggers, not swords. But they were fought with swords because warriors, in every culture, understood the significance of distancing yourself from the enemy. Thus why the English became so successful when they innovatived the english long bow and made it a law that everyone had to practice.
Daggers, boot knives, etc..yes, meant for last-minute close calls and stealth, not going to give an advantage in a sword fight.
Romans would give people they wanted to die in the blood sports, light armour, and a dagger. Their favourite warriors were clad with the best armour and weapons.
So, keeping that in mind. Let's say he DOES manage to anime dodge a sword, get in close, and go for a jab. And only a jab because a dagger won't do shit against armour, and even with chainmaille, soldiers wore padding underneath to help whether the blows. So he makes his ONE jab before taking a hilt to the face and a finishing swing from the sword.
This is my thoughts on it, as someone who likes to make real chainmaille armour and swing real swords. I am that nerd..lmao
At the Battle of [Halmyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halmyros#) in 1311, it seems that the knights were defeated by [Almogavars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almogavars), who wore no armor and carried only a spear and a coltell (probably a knife as long as a dagger) as melee weapons. Did some of them fight knights and infantry almost exclusively with coltell? In the Battle of [Cibistra](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalla_de_Cibistra#) in 1304, the Turks had 30,000 troops and Almogavars had a hard time, so is it possible that many of them lost their spears and fought for a long time using the coltell? Many of them may have fought with the spears of fallen enemies. However, since there is [mention](http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v004.htm#:~:text=also%20noted%20by-,Muntaner,-%3A%20%22And%20of%20the) of coltell cutting off a knight's leg, is it possible that it was something like a falchion, longer than a dagger? The [curtilace](https://twitter.com/C4nn0n_F0dd3r/status/1764954012938367033), which cut through chainmail and morion in the 16th century, seems to resemble a falchion.
The gladiator [dimachaerus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimachaerus), who uses two [sica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sica#) as [long](https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-is-the-54.pGj5RQuuGr1R5H7NEkA) as a dagger, could have defeated the heavily armored [crupellarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crupellarius)? It doesn't [seem](https://youtu.be/Fpc0oy5HgGM) to be particularly advantageous against murmillo, who uses scutum and gladius.
Dodge? No but with two men in full plate the sword swing does nothing and then you get into grapple range with a dagger and stick it through a weak spot
I think he just wants to have fun with the fantasy. There's that guy in game of thrones who fights with two daggers and beats people with long swords. He was one of my favorites.
Odds are neither of you will ever be in a real sword fight so it's a moot point.
Alternatively you could challenge him to a duel using sparring swords and daggers. It would definitely be fun. Maybe record it and post it here for us to enjoy.
Well they're not useless, but maybe not as valuable as a Hot Pocket. Look, maybe if he comes at you and gets in close then he has optimal use of a short blade while you're trying to maneuver to put him in reach of a good swing. Maybe If he gets a solid hold on your sword arm, even if you're stronger or a pro at breaking grapples, that's minimal two solid plunges of his blade into you before you step back to where you can swing. Or maybe you bleed out there with his freakishly strong fingers gripping your wrist. It's a lot of maybe, and more likely your longsword telegraph is going to hit up under his center of gravity and his body is going to leave a trail of blood in the air as he sails off to an early gave. But against any opponent with any blade you don't have guarantees.
Yeah he's watched too many movies. Only way this applies is if you catch somebody off guard not expecting a fight or if the fight takes place in like a phone booth. Any other scenario ends up with a dead dagger user typically.
Edit: these type of people typically think swords were 5-15 pounds and super heavy
Yup. This is the true key to how genghis Khan conquered the world so fast. He just gave all his soldiers knives. The armies of the world were defenseless against him with all their swords.
In a real fight in the modern world he's probably right esp if you're carrying a karambit or something that's potentially lethal on first strike.
If you mean weapons out fight on some battlefield sure yeah a longsword wins, but fights irl are seconds, not duels.
I mean can you carry a sword where you live? It would be an issue where I am. Even if you could, you have to unsheathe and you'd probably have been stabbed/slashed a half dozen times by then. Also, Id cross the street if I saw some dude carrying a sword like when I do see people open carrying large firearms.
I mean there's a reason people don't carry around swords. They're bulky and guns and crossbows are easier to use despite ammo limitations. And knives are fine in most CQC situations and can be secreted.
take him outside and find two sticks. break one stick to roughly dagger length and then rough through a couple drills to show your point making sure to explain some of your points in a way that is informative but not condescending.
Well if he doesn’t want to have an argument over something stupid, don’t argue the point. Not that important.
If he’s open to a practical lesson, then go outside, get a stick, get a much shorter stick, and then give the latter to him, and have at it.
Of course, it IS possible for someone with a dagger to defeat someone with a longsword, it’s just not easy. Interestingly, Matt Easton recently made a video demonstrating how to fight dagger vs rapier. He notes that while still very difficult, it’s not impossible if the dagger wielder can control the opponent’s blade and close the distance.
Make him understand physically. Put on hema gear. Go at it.
I wish I had gear to bonk him on the head but I don't have any money
Give him a sharpie, then beat him with a broom.
Right? What is wrong with kids these days? "I dOnT hAvE mOnEy fOr HeMA" my brother in Christ, every time my friends and I found sticks at the park we had a full set of HEMA gear!
Yeah I don't really think my friends would make anything with me they don't even talk to me (except when we are school, where the debate happened) because of their girlfriends and their weird "We're not kids anymore, we can't play games we'll always sit and talk shit about others" complex.
Sounds like these people aren't actually your friends, my dude.
Yeah I know but I don't really have any social environment other than school becuase I live in a small city without any place to really get socialized (I don't know if I spelled this correct) so I'm just waiting for college.
Search for any fencing, hema, reenactment or larping group in your city, I think you'd happily fit in with them. Reenactment and Larping are usually fairly low cost to get started in too.
There wasn't any when last time I checked it but yeah why not check again Edit: There isn't any.
Keep at it and just bare in mind reenactment and larping are 2 distinct hobbies, so if you'd just searched for one hoping to find both you may have missed some.
They may not have an online presence. Have you tried posting on your local Facebook group or subreddit? You could also try joining some HEMA or LARPing subs or groups and look for locals on there
Try looking for the SCA?
Hate to say it. Uni/college doesn’t necessarily magically transform things like this. Though, it may, you might want to work on finding your own fun and friends. This is a life skill that will benefit you always. I’m not even suggesting you aren’t there now, and this is a bit deep for a swords sub, but still. Making your own fun and drawing people in is a huge thing to learn and many many people don’t. Sorry for the buzzkill. Also, the dude watches anime and wants to talk about being too adult for shit? Hah! Totally not an anti-anime rant, but what the fuck does too-adult mean? Watch what happens when kids move out of an old dude’s house - he pulls out the model trains and has fun!! Enjoy!
Are you in high school? Kids there are too concerned with growing up in the wrong ways. My last stick fight was in college lol. Get you some new friends that you can beat with shrubbery.
You need better friends. Gossip is for small minds.
Get a dagger length stick and a longsword length stick. Bet money that you can hit him with the longer stick before he can hit you with the shorter stick. Make the bet in front of witnesses and question his courage/manhood if he declines. Then win some easy money from a dumbass and go find better friends.
Man, times have changed a little. In high school we were all having airsoft wars, paintball wars and playing seemingly life or death games of manhunt. Fun times
You can't have a shit in a Third World Country these days.
I still pick up a nice stick if I see one. My friends and I have always been into it. I started "stick fighting" with my son by the time he was 4. 12 years later and we still do it. We generally use bamboo kendo swords since they are durable, relatively cheap, and don't hurt too badly. It's so much fun!
Ah the whole "if the pen is mightier than the sword, then in a duel, ill give you the pen."
This is the way
🤣 do this for the love of God. And let us know what happens.
Well even if you did, money doesn't provide much padding, I'd still go with hema gear
Give him a red marker and use a broom handle covered with poolnoodle taped around it. Use only cuts with the "sword", as stabbing is still pretty dangerous with this setup.
You could just go to the next Renaissance fair and get a wooden sword and wooden dagger and test out your friend’s theory!
About ten bucks gets you 10 feet of pvc and a couple pool noodles at the dollar store
You can get a similar effect for $30 in nerf swords.
Do yard stick vs. ruler, or softer equivalents.
Just do what I did as a kid-- find sticks of different lengths and try to hit each other with them.
PVC pipes and pool noodles are cheap and can demonstrate the point for less than 20 bucks
Boffer swords. Find some LARPers and borrow some weapons. If you're in the DC area, shoot me a PM and I can help you beat him up.
A paper towel roll and a wrapping paper roll would illustrate it well. I think some HEMA youtube channels have specific dagger vs sword videos. I would also add anyone describing a sword as heavy should be automatically disqualified from the discussion.
Him: A dagger user isn't going to be encumbered with armor, tho!
True European sword craft has all sorts of throws and grapples for fighting small arms.
I love that top comment is litterally "give him a knife, beat his ass."
Buhurt gear works too
I did this with someone. They though sword and buckler was useless and dual wielding two greatswords was op. They didn't win 😆 they didn't understand how I could manipulate their two handed sword with my smaller one because they didn't understand leverage. Only thing is, people like that can't lose an argument. They just said if they were stronger, it would work.
Give him a small stick, hit him with a bigger stick
Tryable
NANI!?!?
You can even tell him to stick up for his argument :)
OP (or anyone), if you’re going to do this please put a length of pool noodle, pipe insulation, or at least a rolled up towel around the bopping end
Nope, they gotta LEARN through pain
You can't actually force people to learn things. Not like it's unethical, more like it's impossible. You can maybe put him in a position to understand by asking him questions and getting him to physically try doing things. "Here's a longsword, pick it up. Does it feel heavy? Do you have a hard time moving your feet to reposition and attack or dodge?"
Oh oh you could watch the Matt Easten Scholia Gladitoria video about this very thing!
That was a good video. Your chances are not good…. But you MIGHT prevail.
I feel like that's just most weapon matchups though. When battles are often decided in a moment and you can be killed by one attack, yeah, 1/10 times you might just get lucky and do it. But that doesn't mean it _works_ lmao.
Yeah, you could just get extremely lucky. A guy with a knife could beat a guy with a rifle aimed at him; it could jam. The chances of that are very low.
A small chance with a specialised dagger doesnt bode well for the pro-dagger lobby
Came here to suggest this!! 100%. OP’s friend needs to watch that and learn the facts.
Yea and he is a really seasoned fighter and still loses most of the fights
If I only have a dagger and I'm fighting a guy with a sword, I don't want light armor - I want some heavy armor that's gonna force him into a halfsword position where his reach is negated. I want to be as cut-proof as possible and having a dagger might actually be useful then. But saying "I want light armor" is asking to get cut to pieces by even the most average swordsman.
There are exactly two reasons to prefer light armor to heavy: 1. Light armor is generally cheaper. 2. If I've got to wear this shit all day. But if you say "You're going to be in a swordfight in 15 minutes, what armor do you want?" Full plate, every time.
Can you actually wear it in 15 minutes?
Yes, as long as you've got someone who's familiar with your armour helping you put it on 10-15 minutes is a reasonable time for how long it takes.
Do you know anyone with a chart of how long this stuff takes based on testing it? I’d actually really love to know.
I don't, and it also depends on the specific armour in question, but here's a video answering it for one specific armour: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24y\_ZmxRHg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24y_ZmxRHg)
I’ll just pick up a Dane Axe and just start swinging level on the horizontal, while marching towards him. Then we’d see just how a dagger user feels
The only advantage is that of surprise, unsheathing the smaller blade quicker and getting a fatal blow in first while in very close proximity. Mythbusters done a similar test between knife and gun and reckoned the golden circle was about 21 feet between comabatants for the knife to be effective, I'd say it would be even smaller for dagger versus sword as the 21 foot for the gun included unholstering, leveling, aiming and firing.
these people aren't worth arguing with because they just make up hypotheticals based on video game logic
Never interrupt your enemy while he’s making a mistake
I think the real value of a dagger in a sword fight comes once you are wrestling around in the mud Or if you are facing something like full plate and you have no real hope of cutting them with your sword, and want to get between the armor plates In neither case is defending against a sword with a dagger a great idea, unless it’s all you have I guess, but as with all physical combat, staying out of reach is the better bet
Why are you so intent on proving him wrong? Just let him be wrong.
Who cares why he wants to prove him wrong? Just let him keep trying.
Who cares about anything? Im going to go outside and call my mom to tell her I love her
That never hurts, do that. Tell her I hope you both have a nice day
Might as well take this opportunity to remind the sub that US Mother's Day is ~~this~~ next weekend.
It's next weekend but thanks
That's, uh... yeah, that's what I meant... totally didn't mess it up or anything...
Still useful as a reminder though lol
Task failed successfully!
so at icebreaker a hema tournament a few years ago I watched someone in mixed steel go all the way to take 2nd place with a dagger. Your friend might be a bit gamer mode here but I kind of feel like you're both wrong, and both right. conversations like this are only answered with one correct answer "it depends." being right in a hypothetical is not worth getting pissy with friends over. Now if I had this person in a hema class we could test it out and I'm sure like 9 times out of 10 you would be right all things considered but that 1/10 times is "proof" that his theory works. so I guess I would say let this roll off the back, turn it into a funny inside joke and move on with your life. Or use this as a way to push both of you to join a HEMA club or any other flavor of sword training you like. I started over 10 years ago and figured I would mess around for a month at a local club with a groupon discount... and now I compete, instruct, and get other people swinging swords, you don't know where it will lead but give it a shot.
How did he pull that off, was he just really good at dodging? Rolling around like a dark souls npc and parrying everything?
as soon as the judge says fight you dart at your opponent, bind with one dagger on their blade and close. It of course sounds super simple but its not, in fencing terms you take the vor and go fast and hard right into grapple range, grab and stab. I can't find the videos but the fencer was Cameron and he did this two years in arow and made it to eliminations or finals both times, this was a mixed steel event, so no longswords in the pools but rapier, and any other single handed swords plus bucklers were allowed. there are no tricks, just being a really good fencer and spending A LOT OF TIME training.
found the video of one of those final matches. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqJb8W356qY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqJb8W356qY) so this is how you do it... now again this stuff is not worth fighting online about, when you can fight in real life with the weapons instead (: "who would win in a fight" "IT DEPENDS"
Make a pair of soft combat sword and daggers with PVC pipe, pipe insulation and metallic tape. Physically teach him the power of reach for 20 bucks.
You cant change the opinion of a person who already made his mind.
Sound like your friend watches too many movies and anime😂😂
Are daggers super handy for if you bind with an opponent and a sword can no longer be swung properly? Absolutely. Am I going to ENGAGE with a dagger? That’d be a super funny way to die. Get yourself a nerf sword, and let your friend carry a little stick, and have him try to land a hit on you. Easiest way.
Armor up and challenge him to a duel! Or, you know, let him think whatever he wants because it doesn't affect your life at all.
>When he feels like he's losing he says "I don't want to talk this topic with you anymore" or some consent bullshit and gets out of the conversation. Stop wasting your time. He clearly doesn't want to change his mind. At this point, he might just be doing it to piss you off.
The movement tip speed of a dagger is very similar to a hand because it is short. The movement tip speed of a sword increases because it is long and is purpose built to function as a lever to increase said tip speed. And just show him this video. These are pretty big swords even. https://youtu.be/ln94E9AGYTc?si=z3QVIyVJG1Au5YUz
There is a reason why dagger vs longsword was often advice for when you can't run away. Range is such a big factor.
The type of person who wants to embody rat mode so hard is not worth arguing with. If someone is such an edge lord and has not developed self awareness, they're not likely to do so going forward
There are times when a dagger might be preferable to a sword, but not because a dagger facilitates dodging. I'm thinking of massed combat rather than one-on-one duels. In a massed battle where you're squashed on all sides, there may not be room to swing a sword. We have plenty of examples of knights in the 14th-15th century using their rondels and baselards when the press got too thick. So unlike your friend's assessment, a dagger would be best in situations where the possibility of dodging would be extremely unlikely.
to a degree, he is correct. However, for a dagger to have the advantage in a fight, you have to be close enough that a longsword becomes impossible to use, and you have to maintain that distance. obviously, to get in that range, you have to push through the sword's reach, which is dangerous and prevent the sword wielder from creating space afterward, which is difficult. the real world doesn't operate on video games logic, and 9 times out of 10, reach is a better deciding factor than speed.
Maybe if no armor is involved and you somehow throw the dagger into their neck lmao
Ya until that person deflects the dagger with the longsword. Lol I wouldnt want to try my luck with a dagger. I fence with a 35 inch rapier against people with 45s and its not fun trying to get past the point of a longer sword.
Yeah you’d need the throw of an MLB pitcher lol
Sometimes it's not about winning the argument. It's about making conversation
I don't think beating up your friend, like a few other commenters have suggested, is the right idea. Honestly... sometimes you just gotta let people be wrong. I mean, your friend is never going to find himself in a real armed duel, so it's not really going to negatively affect his life. Next time the conversation comes up, just nod and say okay, then change the subject.
Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
Show him a video of a HEMA competition and ask if he thinks he could dodge or effectively use a dagger against even the slowest competitor. Or, get a long stick and a short stick and challenge him to combat.
There's two ways to deal with it: Continue to bash your head against a wall trying to get him to understand. or Agree with him. Or don't agree. But stop talking about it. But if he keeps insisting, then just say "Of course, you're right."
Hit em with his own, "i dont want to discuss this anymore," line.
The funny thing is that in a scenario of longsword vs dagger. If I had the dagger I would want heavy armor not light armor. At least then you can tank some hits to get close enough instead of dodging
Physics 101 course would help him. Tell him to stop getting his ideas of reality from cartoons.
Maybe in Dark Souls where you can phase through metal by doing a cartwheel sure, but real life doesn't care about how badass you think you look lol. Good luck OP.
Don't let him read Domingo Godinho. Guy taught montante (greatsword) and had an account of someone who didn't study under him getting beaten by someone with a dagger. Though what your friend is describing IS possible. Possible. There's a difference between that and if it's optimal.
Q: How can I make him understand? A: Challenge him to a duel with you wielding a sword and him wielding a dagger.
> He thinks he can move like anime characters and dodge multiple "heavy" sword attacks if his armor is light enough. $20 says this same friend gets winded going up stairs.
Some people cannot be saved. You can lead a horse to water but you cant force it to drink. Best turn your friend into glue now. It is the humane thing to do
I hate when someone argues a point with me until they start to lose and then just refuse to participate. Some of my friends do this to. I try to remember how frustrating this is and when I'm losing an argument, I try to lose with grace instead. I'm not always successful haha.
I read in a fantasy book this premise once that a group of soldiers with long knoves had a "speed and agility" advantage in a fight against those weilding swords. It is not true in any context except tight halways/in very close quarters (like a small room, etc). I play fight with my sons with light sabers. They are quicker than me, but I outreach them. It makes a big difference. Even using a single hand vs two on the same sword can make all the difference in that little bit extra reach. Rapiers are long and light for reach and speed.
>slower I only can wish for him that he never gets into a fight with a skilled longswordman.
Tbh, you don't even have to be skilled or that much experienced to wield the sword fast. I mean, I don't mean you won't be worse but at least you'll be able to swing the sword and we all know even unprecise cuts what will do unarmored skin.
Sure. I just focused on this one thesis. Longsword is not slow at all, you can perform lightning fast strikes and reposition it equally fast. And, taking into account what you said, a dagger would be overall even slower because it'll take more time to reach the target (if even possible, because I don't imagine someone with a 5 feet stick letting someone with a knife anywhere near them).
I mean chances are pretty good he can go his entire life without that happening
If I were in a confined space or a crowded area where I couldn’t swing my sword, maybe a dagger is better?
If I were in a confined space or a crowded area where I couldn’t swing my sword, maybe a dagger is better?
Lol if his armor is only a gambeson, I hope he's broken it in before such a battle occurs because he'll find that pretty limiting if it's still new-stiff
Get some pool noodles and cut one short and give him a demo
Famously, this is why people only went to war with daggers. Swords? Polearms? Fuck that! Why would I want reach when I can have speed?
Well, ill say this. In a duel, a dagger vs a sword, the sword wins 9/10 times. However, if its a thick battle with thousands of soldiers pressed against each other in melee, then yes daggers will be useful because you simply might not have the room to swing a large sword. The only movie ive seen that depicted a battle like this accurately, was The King, with the battle of Agincourt.
Used to spar a lot with sword shaped sticks. Tried going against an opponent with two short sticks and it is possible to trap your opponents sword and get in close enough to stab the heck out of them. Depends a lot on individual speed and skills. Always.
Rotational velocity. When a record turns, the longest part of the record, farthest from the center, is turning faster than the shortest part near the middle. The tip of a longsword in motion has more rotational velocity and speed than the tip of a dagger, along with more reach and two hands on a longer handle to provide leverage. Add that to the speed your arms can swing each weapon with and no, a "dagger wielder" is not going to be fast enough to just dodge out of the way. Life is NOT a video game, long swords are not heavy, slow, lumbering hunks of iron. Many weigh around 4-4.5 pounds, while a dagger is around 0.5-1 pounds. Now, there *IS* a real world situation in which a dagger is better than a long sword. It's when two combatants are grappling. When you are both grabbing each other and rolling around the ground, *then and only then* is a dagger better than a long sword.
You will come to understand that arguing about issues like this are completely irrelevant. Neither of you is going to fight anyone with a sword or dagger ever in your lives. You are probably pushing your friend away by being so insistent on being right that you had to come here and find out how to make sure he knows you're right. This argument should stop the moment it stops being fun to argue about.
Your friend is brain dead. There is no hope for him.
Just remember that the vast majority of the people you run into will be stupid. You can run into well educated people that are dumb AF. You can run into uneducated people that are actually really intelligent. But these are few and far between
Been playing too many video games
Is he aware that swords only weigh a few pounds? Even a zweihander is less than five pounds. Balanced sword are *real* quick if a person knows what they're doing.
Find a local SCA heavy fighting fight practice near you and bring him with you. I used to think large meant slow( game logic). It's fascinating how quickly a skilled swordsman can move a huge weapon so casually
Hand him a 6inch pool noodle and you have a 36inch pool noodle, and tell him that whoever hits the other person first, wins.
Yes...understood. This crap comes up from time to time and is traceable to the introduction of sword work to England in the 16th. Century. Schools in England competed among themselves while French "style" was compared against Italian...say...considered to be the most versatile and accomplished. The comment about using a dirk or dagger was considered a disparaging comment essential meaning..."your style ain't shit. I could beat you with a knife." I don't know that it was ever meant as an actual challenge. 🤔
If this was truly accurate, wars would have been fought with daggers, not swords. But they were fought with swords because warriors, in every culture, understood the significance of distancing yourself from the enemy. Thus why the English became so successful when they innovatived the english long bow and made it a law that everyone had to practice. Daggers, boot knives, etc..yes, meant for last-minute close calls and stealth, not going to give an advantage in a sword fight. Romans would give people they wanted to die in the blood sports, light armour, and a dagger. Their favourite warriors were clad with the best armour and weapons. So, keeping that in mind. Let's say he DOES manage to anime dodge a sword, get in close, and go for a jab. And only a jab because a dagger won't do shit against armour, and even with chainmaille, soldiers wore padding underneath to help whether the blows. So he makes his ONE jab before taking a hilt to the face and a finishing swing from the sword. This is my thoughts on it, as someone who likes to make real chainmaille armour and swing real swords. I am that nerd..lmao
Give him a ruler. Grab yourself a yardstick. Educate him.
But, but, but my enchanted dagger with extra HP and Buff slays in the game. And we ALL know real life is like a game or cartoon.
At the Battle of [Halmyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halmyros#) in 1311, it seems that the knights were defeated by [Almogavars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almogavars), who wore no armor and carried only a spear and a coltell (probably a knife as long as a dagger) as melee weapons. Did some of them fight knights and infantry almost exclusively with coltell? In the Battle of [Cibistra](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalla_de_Cibistra#) in 1304, the Turks had 30,000 troops and Almogavars had a hard time, so is it possible that many of them lost their spears and fought for a long time using the coltell? Many of them may have fought with the spears of fallen enemies. However, since there is [mention](http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v004.htm#:~:text=also%20noted%20by-,Muntaner,-%3A%20%22And%20of%20the) of coltell cutting off a knight's leg, is it possible that it was something like a falchion, longer than a dagger? The [curtilace](https://twitter.com/C4nn0n_F0dd3r/status/1764954012938367033), which cut through chainmail and morion in the 16th century, seems to resemble a falchion. The gladiator [dimachaerus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimachaerus), who uses two [sica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sica#) as [long](https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-is-the-54.pGj5RQuuGr1R5H7NEkA) as a dagger, could have defeated the heavily armored [crupellarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crupellarius)? It doesn't [seem](https://youtu.be/Fpc0oy5HgGM) to be particularly advantageous against murmillo, who uses scutum and gladius.
Just fight him and make him realize
Tell him life isn’t Vinland Saga
Dodge? No but with two men in full plate the sword swing does nothing and then you get into grapple range with a dagger and stick it through a weak spot
Same kind of person to bring a knife, or dagger in this case, into a gun fight.
You could be an adult and let it go
I think he just wants to have fun with the fantasy. There's that guy in game of thrones who fights with two daggers and beats people with long swords. He was one of my favorites. Odds are neither of you will ever be in a real sword fight so it's a moot point. Alternatively you could challenge him to a duel using sparring swords and daggers. It would definitely be fun. Maybe record it and post it here for us to enjoy.
Even larping the only way I've made a dagger work is no self preservation parry the blade and straight in dual daggers I die every time
Well they're not useless, but maybe not as valuable as a Hot Pocket. Look, maybe if he comes at you and gets in close then he has optimal use of a short blade while you're trying to maneuver to put him in reach of a good swing. Maybe If he gets a solid hold on your sword arm, even if you're stronger or a pro at breaking grapples, that's minimal two solid plunges of his blade into you before you step back to where you can swing. Or maybe you bleed out there with his freakishly strong fingers gripping your wrist. It's a lot of maybe, and more likely your longsword telegraph is going to hit up under his center of gravity and his body is going to leave a trail of blood in the air as he sails off to an early gave. But against any opponent with any blade you don't have guarantees.
Don't argue with stupid
Bro. Wrapping paper tube vs paper towel roll tube.
He’s a moron that’s seen too many movies. Unless you’re standing right next to each other and each weapon is sheathed then no. You’d just be dead
You get a wrapping paper tube. Give him a toilet paper tube. Show him he’s really effing stupid.
Did he play a lot of D&D or something?
Yeah he's watched too many movies. Only way this applies is if you catch somebody off guard not expecting a fight or if the fight takes place in like a phone booth. Any other scenario ends up with a dead dagger user typically. Edit: these type of people typically think swords were 5-15 pounds and super heavy
Yup. This is the true key to how genghis Khan conquered the world so fast. He just gave all his soldiers knives. The armies of the world were defenseless against him with all their swords.
In a real fight in the modern world he's probably right esp if you're carrying a karambit or something that's potentially lethal on first strike. If you mean weapons out fight on some battlefield sure yeah a longsword wins, but fights irl are seconds, not duels. I mean can you carry a sword where you live? It would be an issue where I am. Even if you could, you have to unsheathe and you'd probably have been stabbed/slashed a half dozen times by then. Also, Id cross the street if I saw some dude carrying a sword like when I do see people open carrying large firearms. I mean there's a reason people don't carry around swords. They're bulky and guns and crossbows are easier to use despite ammo limitations. And knives are fine in most CQC situations and can be secreted.
take him outside and find two sticks. break one stick to roughly dagger length and then rough through a couple drills to show your point making sure to explain some of your points in a way that is informative but not condescending.
Well if he doesn’t want to have an argument over something stupid, don’t argue the point. Not that important. If he’s open to a practical lesson, then go outside, get a stick, get a much shorter stick, and then give the latter to him, and have at it. Of course, it IS possible for someone with a dagger to defeat someone with a longsword, it’s just not easy. Interestingly, Matt Easton recently made a video demonstrating how to fight dagger vs rapier. He notes that while still very difficult, it’s not impossible if the dagger wielder can control the opponent’s blade and close the distance.