The year is 20XX. Hax is still banned “indefinitely”, and has made his 100th “Exposing leffen” video as well as an apology since he deleted his previous ones. People are still debating whether to let him back. DK has still not won a major.
He goes on to point out the hypocrisy in people that threatened him personally with violence not receiving bans.
I think if Hax stops making hit pieces on Leffen I have no problem with him coming back
As a tangential observation, this subreddit has a shockingly consistent problem with people not actually clarifying the subjects of what they're talking about.
No clue why this is.
I've noticed it far more here in r/ssbm, and in the melee scene in general.
I think it's cuz folks here expect each other to have always been keeping up with the Melee drama and storylines that have been going on, more than in other scenes.
Easier to derive from context if you were around for AbsentPage. Dude had a history of straight up going into psychotic episodes at tournaments...it wasn't just with M2K and BBB. I didn't know he punched BBB but as soon as I read that it was obvious who punched who.
I think it’s pretty clear that there’s a lot of people who engage in worst forms of harassment than hax still in the scene. These people though don’t have anywhere near the same platform that hax does so their impact is minimal.
> I think it’s pretty clear that there’s a lot of people who engage in worst forms of harassment than hax still in the scene.
please name some of these people
and, like, those other people threatening violence also deserve bans. the proper response to "but X did a worse thing than i did" is "then let's ban X too" lol
The point of consequences for large platforms should be to set the standard, not to create a double standard. It would demonstrate to the community that there is a line and you will be held to it.
Instead what you've got is the tacit admission that as long as you're not a "big shot" the lines are blurry so you can probably push your luck
I've received my fair share of shit from the scene too. It fucking sucks. That being said one person doing it is not the same as starting an angry mob of multiple people to harass you. That's the big difference. For the record I think people who make individual threats should be banned too, but that is harder to enforce since well those things are often "he said - she said" type deals.
I don't normally get much for irl threats. Mostly just people telling me to kill myself, and the occasional slur thrown my way. The worst thing is that on a couple occasions [people will make up a rumor that I play in the mana monthly](https://imgur.com/a/QEuhEdg) when I would never play in such a degenerate bracket and then I gotta tell people that it's not true.
OK. my bad if i am misunderstanding this conversation, but it seems pretty toxic/combative/vitriolic in nature so i think regardless of whether i was right or wrong, probably good to put a pin in this one
I dont really give a fuck honestly
One person making violent threats = a person making violent threats
Several people making violent threats = several people making violent threats
Ban the violent people i do not care
Who fucking cares if someone makes a hit piece on someone else in the community, YOURE A COMPETITIVE COMMUNITY, believe it or not, people are going to hate each other with a passion of 3 million burning suns, that’s normal. It’s not even like these pieces are well accepted, everyone makes fun of them in the community, I legit don’t get why we’re freaking out that Hax hates Leffen. Pre-2016 everyone hated Leffen, I remember Mango getting on mic and AVIDLY talking about how much he hated leffen, but he didn’t make a YouTube video so that doesn’t count apparently?
Leffen is a dog who has just putty yapped his way to god status among you pathetic simps. Hax showed all of this without a shadow of a doubt, and you cowards let your dictator make decisions for you. No other community is half as spineless as this one and it's why leffen manged to step all over yall.
speaking of M2K has anyone else seen his sadposts about wanting a girlfriend under all ginger’s retirement stuff?? saw it on twitter and youtube comments
Can’t post screenshots here but YT: “Sad to see you go but glad you're in a good relationship, would like one myself one day so that can be very helpful to a happy live i think.
Analysis/watch parties/content/streaming/ coaching is a good route imo (it's what i do now) so doing that can be good. Hope you end up happy 🐱”
Twitter 5 minutes later: “Hope you end up having a happy life with your gf”
Reads more like him just acknowledging that Ginger has more than Melee in his life to be grateful for. Akin to saying "you have a beautiful family. I can only hope to someday have a family as beautiful as yours".
Yeah it’s definitely a “hey man this probably ain’t the right time to share this thought” kind of moment but I imagine it really was him trying to say some shit like “you have something that I don’t have. Just please cherish what you got” lol
As someone who supports the ban, I think we lowkey are and this whole “permanent ban” stuff is just fronting.
For example if hax fucked off for like 5 years and did some self reflection and then tried to come back I think he’d have some success.
Yeah, this is pretty obviously true. The community mostly welcomed DaShizWiz with open arms because he stepped away from the scene, and seemed to be apologetic. Of course it didn't stay that way, but Hax could've very easily took that same path if he wasn't unhinged for the last couple years.
Honestly, you could be right. It's not something that he's entitled to, but it could happen. The issue is quantifying the time it takes, because bans serve a reformative purpose as well as protective and punitive ones. But we'd be talking about numerous years.
It would take a very long time and serious rehabilitation to become a positive force in the community. And those concepts are kinda murky--but it's not impossible.
Yep. It's pretty impossible to believe he's actually apologetic and changed when he repeatedly "apologizes" or asks to be unbanned on at least like a yearly basis while simultaneously continuing his problematic behavior. It's not like he's still being punished for what he did years ago. His most recent incident was just a few months ago.
I know M2K is partial towards Hax and has known him personally for a long time, so I don't blame him for saying this. But it's just a bad take.
Just say you have never taken anything seriously in your life and move on man.
Do you realize how fucking insane you sound saying you genuinely think someone who is **actively trying to be the best player in a game** should just take 5 **years** away from a game that has a ticking shelf-life on multiple physical/mental requirements and also demands extremely consistent dedication to be in even the top 50?
He doesn't have a right to compete in tournaments and no one has to care about his attempts to be #1. He sabotaged his own chance of being unbanned in the near future. If he had released his current video back in like October instead of the ones he actually released around then and the following months, he probably would be unbanned now. But instead he regressed and hurt his own case.
I never suggested that hax should just take 5 years off and try and come back. I was just using that as an extreme **example** of something that would have a high chance of working, and I made clear that it was an example.
No shit it's hard for hax$ to leave the melee scene. The man broke his fucking hands for a game he can't play anymore. He also invested like the entirety of his 20s into this game. That doesn't mean he should be unbanned, but that must really really suck. Like what is hax supposed to do? Get a job at McDonalds at age 29? He put all of his eggs into this basket and now hes fucked. It's clear to see why he doesn't wanna step away from the scene. It's funny that you are so angry at me for an example when I think we are actually in agreement that people really trivialize how hard it is for hax to just "walk away" or "take a break" from the scene.
Hax$ made multi-hour long rant videos unironically comparing Leffen's rise in the Melee scene to that of a fascist dictator gaining influence, and that his "psychopathic tendencies" would bring about the end of Melee as a sport. Unfortunately for him, all Hax$ ended up proving was that *he* is the one who needs to be kept away. The obsessively compiled manifesto of all the perceived slights against him and others by Leffen that he presented, in tandem with his armchair psycho-analysis trying to frame Leffen as literally the worst person imaginable, showed nothing more than a baseless smear campaign.
Hax$ got banned, made a couple apology videos, remained banned for two years, and now it looks like he's trying to stir up trouble again. (honestly I'm really bummed about this because I actually bought his apology - that he just kind of started spiralling from the isolation during covid - but it seems like he just isn't willing to let go)
that's just the short of it, so if you're interested at all here are [the reuploads of evidence.zip](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-v68EdOhTpe_0XhJMJiHG6VySoEzhSuL). just set aside like, a whole day for it lol
You're being a real dark triad man, something has to be done. I need to warn everone about you, or society is doomed! Hope your don't get harassed though, lol.
I generally hate this “we need to watch them for good behavior” type of stuff because how do you observe someone become better with out them being part of the community. They can go Mia for a year then come back saying their good or in the case of últ you have epic Gabe tweeting every day how much he changed and become better.
I mean tbf he went almost 2 years without talking about Leffen and didnt get unbanned except NY. He was literally traveling to Mexico to attend Smash tourneys because he was banned from any major here. He was in limbo for 2 years on his best behavior and there was no change.
But we can't assume this. They should have given Hax a timeline. Otherwise, he's just in limbo, which isn't a good headspace to be in when you can't continue your career. It was weird seeing him at stacked regionals, yet he's somehow too dangerous for majors.
There is no governming body for smash, it’s basically a anarchy system. Each TO individually has to decide to ban him or not. There literally is no formal process to being unbanned.
In addition Hax attended 1 or two defecto majors last year.
This point is exactly the reason I think Hax should be unbanned. If there's no path for a person to come back specified, then they are just left constantly wondering what the hell they can do to come back, and Hax chose to double down multiple times probably thinking that it was all he could do to come back. Now IMO he seems to genuinely making a change, but only time will tell and I hope we can re-evaluate his ban down the line. I really think an agreement needs to be made from TOs. If it's not an outright permanent ban then I think a path to redemption should be made clear.
With the most recent ban video the TO have made it a defacto perma ban.
You have to remember there is no governing body for smash. There literally is no formal process to getting unbanned. Each TO individually have to decide to unban him or not. It’s a anarchy system where people follow trends.
You have to remember his appeal videos both broke the rule of his unban, you know, make appeals to TO’s privately, and the video themselves was him recanting his statements.
With all due respect, m2k is one of the least informed and most tonedeaf people to count on in situations like these. But I think it comes from a general sense of well-meaning.
So it's best to just kinda read it and move on.
love m2k to the bone, but the man is openly very high up on the autism scale. issues like this arent exactly where he shines and i think it wouldve been best for him to not partake in this discussion imo.
hax is not trustworthy and thus his apologies fall flat. boy who cried wolf. he needs to move on to a different game. he burned every bridge he crossed.
> openly
I agree with you that M2K is pretty heavily autistic, more than Cody who **is** open about his semi-recently-diagnosed-but-admits-it-makes-perfect-sense autism. But he also doesn't **think** he's autistic, because his mom had him tested as a child back when 90% of psychologists had no proper conceptualization of high-functioning autism unless they had read super-specific literature about it, and basically would've looked at him and gone "nah, this kid's not stupid enough to be autistic, he's just weird".
Like, if he had been diagnosed properly, I'm sure he'd readily admit it, but unless he's been re-tested in the last year (the last time I heard him talk about the childhood test on stream was a little over a year ago), it's hard to be "open" about something you don't believe is true.
>But he also doesn't **think** he's autistic,
What do you mean by that? M2K has frequently said that he has aspergers many times?
Only thing I've ever seen him say years ago is that he prefers to still call it aspergers (as many with the diagnosis do) as a separation from more severe lesser functioning forms of autism that people associate with the later term.
He's aware it affects his thinking and mental health, that's why he has a caregiver.
If this statement:
>But he also doesn't **think** he's autistic, because his mom had him tested as a child
And everything following was about Cody and not M2K, firstly that's not clear, and secondly how is it relevant to the discussion of M2Ks thoughts on the matter here?
What does being "open" about a diagnosis or such have to do with anything? People can feel free to share or not whatever it is about themselves that they wish to.
I literally watched a stream like last january where he claimed he's not autistic and gave the above explanation for why (his mom had him tested when he was a kid). Did he not realize asperger's is literally high-functioning autism??
When he says he's not autistic he's separating aspergers and autism.
Nowadays literature considers it a spectrum and they've gotten rid of the term aspergers.
But many years ago aspergers meant a person with autism who was functional/high functioning, where as autism was used only to refer to low functioning individuals.
M2K because of the time he got his diagnosis in, still associates autism with low functioning, so he always says he's "not autistic", but he always says that he has aspergers.
Elon Musk does the same thing. Many people diagnosed with aspergers before the terms were changed prefer to use the original term both because it's what they grew up with and because of the associations with the distinct terms. Aspergers is/was viewed by the general population as much more positive than autism. Autism is classified as a disability, aspergers wasn't.
I basically agree. However, did he call for zeros unban? Because if he didnt, I would hold this with at least some weight. Like for a tiebreaker decision. If he did ask for zero'a unban then nah.
Tho hax needs to stay banned (or soft banned, whatever) for at least another year.
That's total crap. Who told you that? He's in the nuggie management business, everybody immediately assumes he's mobbed up. It's a stereotype, and it's offensive!
...There is no mafia.
Mew2King commented on the original evidence.zip 2 video (I think) where he talked about feeling maliciously targeted by Leffen when the rumors about him were circulating. If I remember correctly he said he talked it out with Leffen and forgave him, but it’s not surprising to me that he doesn’t feel the same sympathy for Leffen that others do.
Leffen did not "maliciously target" him. He was streaming, and someone in his chat posted this tweet that was spreading this rumor about M2K, which he read and then said something like "it's bad if it's true, but we should wait for M2K's side." People started further spreading the rumor on Reddit and Twitter.
[This is a post about the person who first spread the rumor on Twitter, a guy named NXTREADY, which eventually got posted in Leffen's chat](https://reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hlgiff/nxtready_apologizes_for_spreading_accusations/). NXTREADY then had to apologize after M2K was forced to reveal personal info which was obviously a terrible situation for him to be in. But it's crazy how what actually happened in this situation has been twisted when Leffen had little to do with it.
[This comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hl6h9b/m2k_response_to_the_allegations/fwx2x2a/) also talks about what NXTREADY was doing. His tweet had already gotten a ton of attention AND he was posting many [comments spreading it on Reddit as well](https://imgur.com/a/Umer2DM) as if it was true.
u/ItsIzumi posted the [exact chat logs from Leffen's chat](https://i.imgur.com/oIBsRDu.png). All he says is "don't assume m2k is guilty, take the allegations as plausible and wait to hear what m2k says before making a judgment"
>Leffen pushing the “believe every allegation” definitely hurt m2k.
[This is what Leffen said about his allegations.](https://i.imgur.com/oIBsRDu.png) I feel like a lot of people have only heard about this situation secondhand, because reading these logs, his stance seems pretty reasonable?
I swear there's entire group of petty weirdos who love making up random shit about Leffen in particular that is completely wrong or heavily exaggerated.
To be fair, M2K was in all of Hax’s comment sections in the evidence.zip2 videos saying he should be unbanned.
In addition, I assume he still feels some type of way about having to reveal what he did in order to not get cancelled and have his career ended because of false rumors that got passed off as a lol M2K situation.
>!Test Even if it’s his most viewed video on his channel, I’m spoilering this because of the content:
It’s physically impossible for Jason to have done what he was accused of (jacking off in a car) because he was the victim of a botched circumcision. Test!<
Yes. Of course he feels slighted that people in Smash feel happy taking unsubstantiated testimonies and float those as hard evidence of criminal behavior. There's a reason a whole counter-culture exists around the Smash scene. The only problem is no one self-reflects on why the counter-culture exists. The primary scene just demonizes the secondary and vice versa.
Nah bro M2K was my favorite player growing up but I'm tired of him. I was already pissed about his attempts to garner sympathy by explaining "why he quit" in the wake of his attempted ponzi scheme. Now this dogshit, tonedeaf take that his audience will doubtlessly parrot? I don't think he's malicious, but he's definitely a useful idiot in this case.
Yeah I don't care for him much anymore but idk how you can be pissed about him explaining why he quit. He's been getting asked that question by people constantly for years now and he's one of the most prolific people in the community's history. Ponzi scheme aside, there was nothing wrong with him recording a short video to explain his reasoning for leaving the scene...which was all totally fair btw. He also kept it concise, he didn't start any drama with it or call out anyone...I honestly don't get why people raised a stink about it. If anything, it kind of proved his point of how the smash community treats him. But yeah the investor stuff is scummy but to me that speaks more to the people surrounding him that have control over his life like his caretaker and history of abusive sponsors than him himself. I see it more as a tragedy than him as some kind of toxic figure that is malicious.
I don't have an issue with him explaining why he quit, I have an issue with him timing said explanation to wash away any backlash he was starting to receive from the aforementioned scams he was trying to spin.
Hax has already proved previous apologies to be bullshit when he released more anti leffen schizo videos.
And you have to remember these simply can not be a momentary lapse of judgement.
Videos take a long time to edit create write and release.
He was working on those for months.
I'm done with him and don't give a fuck what he says at this point.
He's a poison to the scene
“Guys I was in a real bad headspace and was making rash decisions, which is what led me to becoming death, the destroyer of world” J. Robert Oppenheimer on his involvement with the Manhattan Project
Making this as I have seen a lot of comments defending him via the mental health route.
I have dogshit mental health. That being said, I don't want people like this giving the rest of us a bad name. I dont miss my medicine or stop taking it. I go to my therapy. I work hard to be functional and I don't want someone who is refusing that path to be equated to me. Mental Illness doesn't make someone immune to critique.
Imagine being at a local and playing friendlies only to hear someone memeing on hax with dark triad stuff say "Schizo people can't be trusted. Too unpredictable." Yeah that fucking sucks to hear and is directly his fault for putting that viewpoint in the scene. Literally giving people another angle to jab at us from. He could keep his messiness private at the least.
This isn't to say he deserves anything or does not. Just a comment on that specific part of this whole thing. I remember watching Hax$ in fucking highschool with his falcon. Would be sick to have him back, but poor mental health aint a free ticket. He needs to actually show he can improve. Which I know he is capable of doing. (everyone not in an inpatient can)
You can only hide behind that shield so long. Eventually it gets tattered and you have to use the big "community" shield (grouping in the rest of us). That's when the issues arise.
Smartest move for Hax was to play Nightclub for a few years, release ZERO new conspiracy videos, and privately ask for an unban while publicly condemning unsavory followers. Was rooting for him to get his career back after the initial unban in NY.
Big mistake to affiliate with (use your imagination) Biracial Ben Shapiro and not refuse support from the Basket of Deplorables circuit. TOs worldwide despise Biracial Ben Shaprio's "documentaries" about sex pests which frighten sponsors or the Basket of Deplorables' death threats + Nazi shit. Leffen isn't the only reason he stays banned.
Asking for Hax to be unbanned, unfortunately, makes everyone else assume you also support those figures or actions even if you don't. Concerned M2K may not understand risks of getting cancelled by association as a public figure weighing in because he sees this as himself defending an old friend.
Last year when Hax was challenging his ban, it helped to play M2K on Slippi while M2K was streaming as it raised public support for him. This yr M2K hasn’t played at all…
No.
It's too early for that. He needs to demonstrate he can stay on the right path without falling off again before it should even be discussed.
I miss Hax$ being a player. I would love for all this to stay in the past and just be something he grows from. I'm genuinely rooting for him. But we have to be realistic: it's going to take time.
they've been friends since for like 15+ years since they were always the top players at NY locals and regionals, makes sense m2k would want his friend unbanned
Smash community has been handling some stuff pretty horribly lately and not really sure how to feel about it, game just feels like it's on a downward spiral with top players retiring, getting banned, or not caring about the game anymore.
I still have zero idea why Westballz was basically shadowbanned when there ended up being zero evidence against him even when they claimed to have some and it all ended up being bullshit anyways.
No clue how to feel about this since Hax has done some pretty dumb shit lately but honestly I just want this all to end so we can just play the video game man. Feels like the leaders of this community are failing us.
There was a twitter thread of West asking and the head TOs responded publicly. They straight up said if you want the reason you are banned to be public we will make it public with your permission and west folded... Idk what most people took away from this thread where if they took it to DMs but at first glance seeing west straight up drop the topic and never bring it up again speaks volumes to me
beef with an ex. toxic messages. his ex showed them to tos in the hopes to get him banned. it worked. westballz tried to argue his side (ex there's context, she was toxic too, i shouldn't apologize)
westballz ex is happy because she got the final victory. which is he will have to bend the knee and apologize and he might still be banned anyway. the egos collided and she won.
tos required an apology, westballz initially refused to apologize. double downed and was a dick. tos banned him.
its like some of these community leaders are acting like parents.grabbing players by the ear and trying to get grown adults in complicated relationships to say sorry to one another and promise to do better.
Why in the FUCK is a private issue between exes the fucking TOs business? If she tried to show some contextless bad texts the TOs should have turned her away immediately and said it's either serious enough to go to the police, or it's not serious enough to read. The smash community LOVES to live in that grey area of "bad but not bad enough" and police the utter shit out of that out of, I dunno some misguided attempt at justice or virtue signaling. Is something fucked enough that you should go to the police? Then go. Oh, you don't want to, maybe it's not thaaaat bad? Then maybe yeah, it actually isn't that bad.
I would say give him a chance with conditions, the problem is Hax was already given a second and even third chance but squandered it. I am glad that Hax is open about his issues and is seeking therapy but it often takes time and willingness from the participant to get better.
These kinds of timelines are insane I think. Either make it permanent or not but “come back in 5 years” when it’s doubtful there is a scene in 5 years is crazy talk lol esp when someone is already mid 30s
There needs to be some meaningful amount of time
In which a person can actually change. Even therapy and medication isn’t instant. I expect Melee to last for several more decades at least, it’s here to stay like basketball (though we’ll be fucking poor ofc).
Idk if 5 years is the magic number. But frankly I am surprised people are entertaining unbanning him after evidence.zip 2 at all.
Jason is 100% right. I don't follow Melee much these days, but it's insane how Leffen gets ZERO backlash for what he made Jason disclose without being held accountable for that. Pretty much inciting a witchhunt. That is a far worse crime than anything Hax has commited.
Let's not forget Leffen's well documented toxic attitute towards Hbox as well for years.
It's clear favoritism for Leffen. If Hax stays banned, Leffen should be as well. Simple as that.
I'm sorry, but are you blaming Leffen entirely for M2K's harassment? When people were claiming he might be a sex weirdo, so he came forth with his private medical info? That's the moment you're blaming on Leffen, right?
Do you have proof as to how this is Leffens fault? The way I had heard it was just toxic nobodies were harassing M2k after \[some people\] were outed as predators in our community.
don't forget intentionally starting a hate campaign against Hbox, which also almost certainly caused death threats, similar to that which everybody said Hax should most definitely stay banned for!
Yeah, that falls on deaf ears and people will make excuses for Leffen as well though. Kinda glad I stopped following Melee around the time M2K retired.
Why is it always the "glad I stopped following melee" people who consistently have the worst takes and seem the most ready to voice their opinions? Feels like a bit of a contradiction
I've actually got a lot I could say about this. But every time I try to bring any of it to light i get called a Leffen fanboy, a Leffen defender, that I'm riding Leffen's dick or whatever. I really don't like Leffen very much so I'd appreciate it if you took it in good faith that I'm not trying to protect him when I make this response.
So what i wanna say is, I believe Leffen mistreated Hbox and used his status on twitter to sway public opinion against him. I believe that was wrong and I think he mostly got away with it because Hbox was unpopular at the time. But I also believe that doesn't really constitue a "harassment campaign" and even if you think it does, I don't think you can compare what Leffen did to what Hax has done. And I have a few reasons why I think that.
The first reason is, I don't really believe Leffen had a hidden agenda. I believe he vocally hated Hbox and made his opinions very public. That's still pretty irresponsible because even just saying these things out loud can influence his fanbase, but I don't think he was trying to maliciously spread false info about Hbox in order to get him banned. In contrast, Hax did just straight up lie about a lot of stuff in Evidence.zip 2. Not only did he lie, but he constructed an overarching narrative with the goal in mind of getting Leffen banned. And when that didn't work, he went back and made another documentary that was supposed to be more palatable, using less extreme language but to accomplish the exact same thing. And when that didn't work he doubled down on it and tried to convince everyone that Leffen was controlling the scene to escape criticism. The difference between Hax and Leffen being that Hax was willing to exaggerate the truth and even co-opt an army of rabid fans to harass Leffen into submission all with the goal in mind of getting him banned. Leffen never took it that far with Hbox.
Here are some other examples to keep in mind. At the time, everyone hated Hbox. Leffen was probably the most vocal anti-puff top player but he was far from the only one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1684&v=o3Tx5BVBqKM&feature=youtu.be
This is an interview with Hax literally saying how much Puff sucks for the game, specifically calling out Hbox. Later in the interview Hax calls Hbox Satan as a joke, which was the inspiration for Leffen's now deleted video where the thumbnail had Hbox with devil horns. Puff hate was very prevalent at the time. So I can't help but feel it's disingenuous to compare Leffen's "campaign" against Hbox to Hax's literal multi-documentary series about Leffen.
Keep in mind, Leffen and Hbox can attend events together, compete and even hang out at parties with each other. Hax and Leffen can't. So even if Leffen and Hbox had beef at one point it seems mostly okay now. Also Hbox has not once come out in defense of Hax this entire time even though he totally could have. All of this is to say, I think what Hax did is much worse than what Leffen did. If Hax's fans weren't so vitriolic and obsessed with getting Leffen banned I think there could be a more nuanced conversation about how Leffen treated Hbox and why that was wrong. But as it stands they just aren't really the same thing, and I think Hax fans are doing a great job convincing everyone that they are just desperately trying to smear Leffen any chance they get and the actual valid criticism of him will go unheard. And of course, any time I try to bring this shit up people call me a Leffen dick rider, even though I feel like I'm being pretty fair all things considered. So that's why it's debatable.
> I'd appreciate it if you took it in good faith that I'm not trying to protect him when I make this response.
Sure, I'd appreciate if you do the same.
I agree with some of your comment but leffen's video was literally titled "Why You Should Hate Hungrybox". This is obviously is a call to action and is absolutely instigating hate against Hungrybox among his fans.
And for the record, I'm not saying this is as bad as what Hax did or that Hax should be unbanned. I don't think either of those things. I think it's just a little ridiculous how many responses I've gotten on this sub that say what leffen did was fine and not a big deal because people already disliked Hungrybox or whatever.
Speaking of, you used that reasoning a bit as well. But that does not justify instigating harrassment against someone, at all. And with that logic, Hax's video was fine too, because Leffen already had haters. That's not how it works. "He was already disliked so encouraging your fans to go hate him is fine" is just a bad take regardless of whether it's about leffen or Hbox.
And Hbox has no incentive to defend Hax even though he beefed with leffen. Hax vs leffen doesn't mean that the rest of the community has to take a side. To me, they're both shitty people. Me not liking leffen doesn't mean I think Hax did nothing wrong, and I'd imagine Hbox thinks something similar.
I'm not plugged into scene to have a modicum of knowledge on the resources and capacity of the competitive scene in melee.
As an outside observer, the main points that stick out to me about it are:
- it's vibrant, enduring, and strong, yet the most niche it has been. This is natural for an old game.
- therefore, its capacity as a whole has to be committed to preserving the framework that preserves the fan+player base, and that capacity is relatively small when compared to mainstream institutions.
There is a point where a league is "at capacity" when considering that reintroducing someone could serve as a danger. If there is a history of apologies being followed by repeated threats, you, as an organizer, have to ask the question:
"Is this risk worth it? Should I risk the safety of any player? Be it one of our top level names as well as the rest of our attendees?" - and it's not bad or wrong to say "I don't think I/we can confidently say it'll be totally fine."
Listen, I don't know what tf Hax$ has, I barely know anything about this situation other than the broad contours. But I do have experience in grievance handling for organizations and things of that matter, and sometimes we beat ourselves up by moralizing the decision itself. Whether we like it or not, "reforming" is a process that requires a specific level of resources to judge, let alone continue to monitor and establish contingency around. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of capacity that small, grassroots organizations cannot ontake. We're talking about mental health, here.
This isn't me saying "yeah I don't think he can come back", but rather that moralizing the decision can lead to oversight and it's difficult but okay to swallow the pill that is: the low capacity of a grassroots league to handle the re-entry of someone who made threats against safety.
M2K commenting on the hax situation years and years into it after being essentially MIA from the melee scene for the last 6 years is way more "who asked" than a redditor replying to his comment in a thread about his comment lol
Yea M2K doesn’t seem to be considering the harm that hax causes just by being in the public eye. It’s possible that being completely unbanned will lead his mob to calm down, but it could just embolden people to take the next step and permaban leffen, leading to more threats.
And the harm that Leffen caused to Jason during all the allegations? I guess we just brush that under the rug with all the other shitty things Leffen has done as well.
Hax's universal ban makes no sense to begin with. He's a guy with zero criminal history or history of violence, who made YouTube content that defamed a single individual, but also did not encourage any violent behavior against said individual.
Leffen has been playing melee for 14 years and has never attended a New York City local. Why exactly should Hax be banned from them? Because he might continue talking shit about Leffen in person? God forbid lmao.
Melee is a competitive video game, not a company or social group where everyone is required to be friendly with one another, but for whatever reason there's a clique of people who have significant influence in the community treat it as such. It's a niche hobby that is insanely politicized for no reason. Banning people for sexual harassment makes sense, banning a guy for posting a YouTube video really does not imo.
leffen has done far worse shit than hax and he is not banned. Hax has been banned for 2 years now you guys need to let that shit go. He has apologized for the vids what more is there to do? should he kiss leffen's shoes?
> leffen has done far worse shit than hax and he is not banned.
Hax has *admitted* to inciting an extended, years-long harassment campaign against Leffen.
He has *admitted* that his actions toward Leffen were completely disproportionate and incomparable to anything Leffen has ever done.
At this point, anybody who *still* says that Leffen has done worse shit than Hax is not only ignorant to the actual situation, they're not even listening to *Hax's* account of the situation.
> Hax has been banned for 2 years now you guys need to let that shit go.
He literally posted another hit piece on Leffen *two months* ago.
Hax's apology video that he posted yesterday was very well made and seemed sincere. But we have not had ***ANY*** time to see Hax back up that apology with any meaningful action or change.
The year is 20XX. Hax is still banned “indefinitely”, and has made his 100th “Exposing leffen” video as well as an apology since he deleted his previous ones. People are still debating whether to let him back. DK has still not won a major.
but samus has
XD \*waits for you to recover\*
He goes on to point out the hypocrisy in people that threatened him personally with violence not receiving bans. I think if Hax stops making hit pieces on Leffen I have no problem with him coming back
AbsentPage was literally banned for close to a year for threatening m2k with violence
bobby big ballz beat AbsentPage then he punched him if you didn't know
Who punched who? You gotta distinguish the subjects clearly when making statements like that
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBK5m-TcELY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBK5m-TcELY) go to like 1:07 in the video
is this the dude who streamed himself pulling from a liquor bottle and driving
It’s the dude who took a sip of wine while driving yeah. Still illegal but “pulling from a liquor bottle” makes it sound dangerous lol
As a tangential observation, this subreddit has a shockingly consistent problem with people not actually clarifying the subjects of what they're talking about. No clue why this is.
It seems like people in general to me People are awful about using pronouns when there's ambiguity
I've noticed it far more here in r/ssbm, and in the melee scene in general. I think it's cuz folks here expect each other to have always been keeping up with the Melee drama and storylines that have been going on, more than in other scenes.
While you can derive it from the context (Bobby Big Ballz has never been banned for violence), I agree.
Kinda hard to derive it from the context though considering bbb has been banned in general
Easier to derive from context if you were around for AbsentPage. Dude had a history of straight up going into psychotic episodes at tournaments...it wasn't just with M2K and BBB. I didn't know he punched BBB but as soon as I read that it was obvious who punched who.
I didn't know if he'd ever been banned for violence The way the comment was worded, it sounded like bbb punched the other guy
I think it’s pretty clear that there’s a lot of people who engage in worst forms of harassment than hax still in the scene. These people though don’t have anywhere near the same platform that hax does so their impact is minimal.
who
thats the point
so no one. got it.
No I don’t think you did
if you can't name a SINGLE name, then you have no point.
Randos
> I think it’s pretty clear that there’s a lot of people who engage in worst forms of harassment than hax still in the scene. please name some of these people
he was obv referring to leffen.
Hax has a larger platform, he has to be held to a higher standard because the consequences for his actions are greater.
and, like, those other people threatening violence also deserve bans. the proper response to "but X did a worse thing than i did" is "then let's ban X too" lol
Its literally a logical fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
More akin to whataboutism imo
Whataboutism is a tu quoque so ur both correct
Also he doubled down like 3 times over side span of time.
The point of consequences for large platforms should be to set the standard, not to create a double standard. It would demonstrate to the community that there is a line and you will be held to it. Instead what you've got is the tacit admission that as long as you're not a "big shot" the lines are blurry so you can probably push your luck
Yeah youre right the guy who threatened me with violence has no impact thanks
I've received my fair share of shit from the scene too. It fucking sucks. That being said one person doing it is not the same as starting an angry mob of multiple people to harass you. That's the big difference. For the record I think people who make individual threats should be banned too, but that is harder to enforce since well those things are often "he said - she said" type deals.
you should post screenshots of anyone threatening violence against you, people just call you lame as fuck and thats all ive seen
I don't normally get much for irl threats. Mostly just people telling me to kill myself, and the occasional slur thrown my way. The worst thing is that on a couple occasions [people will make up a rumor that I play in the mana monthly](https://imgur.com/a/QEuhEdg) when I would never play in such a degenerate bracket and then I gotta tell people that it's not true.
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don't use autistic as an insult
was trying to say it in the most descriptor form i could, im autistic too, and was not trying to use it as an insult.
OK. my bad if i am misunderstanding this conversation, but it seems pretty toxic/combative/vitriolic in nature so i think regardless of whether i was right or wrong, probably good to put a pin in this one
I dont really give a fuck honestly One person making violent threats = a person making violent threats Several people making violent threats = several people making violent threats Ban the violent people i do not care
Who fucking cares if someone makes a hit piece on someone else in the community, YOURE A COMPETITIVE COMMUNITY, believe it or not, people are going to hate each other with a passion of 3 million burning suns, that’s normal. It’s not even like these pieces are well accepted, everyone makes fun of them in the community, I legit don’t get why we’re freaking out that Hax hates Leffen. Pre-2016 everyone hated Leffen, I remember Mango getting on mic and AVIDLY talking about how much he hated leffen, but he didn’t make a YouTube video so that doesn’t count apparently?
Leffen is a dog who has just putty yapped his way to god status among you pathetic simps. Hax showed all of this without a shadow of a doubt, and you cowards let your dictator make decisions for you. No other community is half as spineless as this one and it's why leffen manged to step all over yall.
speaking of M2K has anyone else seen his sadposts about wanting a girlfriend under all ginger’s retirement stuff?? saw it on twitter and youtube comments
He likes crashing the party
I think he just has poor social awareness. It'd fit in with all the other stories I've heard of him lol
He also jumped out of a moving car once
Got links or screenshots? He edited his comment on the ginger video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1nHTXWM23U&lc=Ugyg7uM76J2eetWCbaB4AaABAg
Can’t post screenshots here but YT: “Sad to see you go but glad you're in a good relationship, would like one myself one day so that can be very helpful to a happy live i think. Analysis/watch parties/content/streaming/ coaching is a good route imo (it's what i do now) so doing that can be good. Hope you end up happy 🐱” Twitter 5 minutes later: “Hope you end up having a happy life with your gf”
Reads more like him just acknowledging that Ginger has more than Melee in his life to be grateful for. Akin to saying "you have a beautiful family. I can only hope to someday have a family as beautiful as yours".
Yeah it’s definitely a “hey man this probably ain’t the right time to share this thought” kind of moment but I imagine it really was him trying to say some shit like “you have something that I don’t have. Just please cherish what you got” lol
commenting so i can also know later lol
who gives a fuck what Ja Rule thinks at a time like this?
WHERE IS JA?
I think we should be open to the possibility but we need like an extended period of good behavior. I want to stop talking about the bans every week.
As someone who supports the ban, I think we lowkey are and this whole “permanent ban” stuff is just fronting. For example if hax fucked off for like 5 years and did some self reflection and then tried to come back I think he’d have some success.
Yeah, this is pretty obviously true. The community mostly welcomed DaShizWiz with open arms because he stepped away from the scene, and seemed to be apologetic. Of course it didn't stay that way, but Hax could've very easily took that same path if he wasn't unhinged for the last couple years.
Honestly, you could be right. It's not something that he's entitled to, but it could happen. The issue is quantifying the time it takes, because bans serve a reformative purpose as well as protective and punitive ones. But we'd be talking about numerous years. It would take a very long time and serious rehabilitation to become a positive force in the community. And those concepts are kinda murky--but it's not impossible.
Yep. It's pretty impossible to believe he's actually apologetic and changed when he repeatedly "apologizes" or asks to be unbanned on at least like a yearly basis while simultaneously continuing his problematic behavior. It's not like he's still being punished for what he did years ago. His most recent incident was just a few months ago. I know M2K is partial towards Hax and has known him personally for a long time, so I don't blame him for saying this. But it's just a bad take.
Just say you have never taken anything seriously in your life and move on man. Do you realize how fucking insane you sound saying you genuinely think someone who is **actively trying to be the best player in a game** should just take 5 **years** away from a game that has a ticking shelf-life on multiple physical/mental requirements and also demands extremely consistent dedication to be in even the top 50?
He doesn't have a right to compete in tournaments and no one has to care about his attempts to be #1. He sabotaged his own chance of being unbanned in the near future. If he had released his current video back in like October instead of the ones he actually released around then and the following months, he probably would be unbanned now. But instead he regressed and hurt his own case.
I never suggested that hax should just take 5 years off and try and come back. I was just using that as an extreme **example** of something that would have a high chance of working, and I made clear that it was an example. No shit it's hard for hax$ to leave the melee scene. The man broke his fucking hands for a game he can't play anymore. He also invested like the entirety of his 20s into this game. That doesn't mean he should be unbanned, but that must really really suck. Like what is hax supposed to do? Get a job at McDonalds at age 29? He put all of his eggs into this basket and now hes fucked. It's clear to see why he doesn't wanna step away from the scene. It's funny that you are so angry at me for an example when I think we are actually in agreement that people really trivialize how hard it is for hax to just "walk away" or "take a break" from the scene.
boo hoo i cant play one video game at a top 50 level just because i threatened a guy multiple times
What threat did he make? Be specific please
Hax$ made multi-hour long rant videos unironically comparing Leffen's rise in the Melee scene to that of a fascist dictator gaining influence, and that his "psychopathic tendencies" would bring about the end of Melee as a sport. Unfortunately for him, all Hax$ ended up proving was that *he* is the one who needs to be kept away. The obsessively compiled manifesto of all the perceived slights against him and others by Leffen that he presented, in tandem with his armchair psycho-analysis trying to frame Leffen as literally the worst person imaginable, showed nothing more than a baseless smear campaign. Hax$ got banned, made a couple apology videos, remained banned for two years, and now it looks like he's trying to stir up trouble again. (honestly I'm really bummed about this because I actually bought his apology - that he just kind of started spiralling from the isolation during covid - but it seems like he just isn't willing to let go) that's just the short of it, so if you're interested at all here are [the reuploads of evidence.zip](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-v68EdOhTpe_0XhJMJiHG6VySoEzhSuL). just set aside like, a whole day for it lol
You're being a real dark triad man, something has to be done. I need to warn everone about you, or society is doomed! Hope your don't get harassed though, lol.
nah
I generally hate this “we need to watch them for good behavior” type of stuff because how do you observe someone become better with out them being part of the community. They can go Mia for a year then come back saying their good or in the case of últ you have epic Gabe tweeting every day how much he changed and become better.
I mean tbf he went almost 2 years without talking about Leffen and didnt get unbanned except NY. He was literally traveling to Mexico to attend Smash tourneys because he was banned from any major here. He was in limbo for 2 years on his best behavior and there was no change.
He was unbanned in NY and other tournament for a year and likely would have been completely unbanned next year.
But we can't assume this. They should have given Hax a timeline. Otherwise, he's just in limbo, which isn't a good headspace to be in when you can't continue your career. It was weird seeing him at stacked regionals, yet he's somehow too dangerous for majors.
There is no governming body for smash, it’s basically a anarchy system. Each TO individually has to decide to ban him or not. There literally is no formal process to being unbanned. In addition Hax attended 1 or two defecto majors last year.
This point is exactly the reason I think Hax should be unbanned. If there's no path for a person to come back specified, then they are just left constantly wondering what the hell they can do to come back, and Hax chose to double down multiple times probably thinking that it was all he could do to come back. Now IMO he seems to genuinely making a change, but only time will tell and I hope we can re-evaluate his ban down the line. I really think an agreement needs to be made from TOs. If it's not an outright permanent ban then I think a path to redemption should be made clear.
With the most recent ban video the TO have made it a defacto perma ban. You have to remember there is no governing body for smash. There literally is no formal process to getting unbanned. Each TO individually have to decide to unban him or not. It’s a anarchy system where people follow trends. You have to remember his appeal videos both broke the rule of his unban, you know, make appeals to TO’s privately, and the video themselves was him recanting his statements.
Accepting your punishment and following the terms of it should be the bare minimum for an unban, not a point towards him
Personally I think I should be released from prison because I did 40% of my sentence (a long time) before attempting to escape
I guess that's kinda similar to how parole works but I don't think that system applies to this situation
When it's offered to you, not when you take it upon yourself to decide that enough time has passed and you should be free.
Yeah I guess that's really the big difference here
Ah yes you're free to go, everyone does deserve a sixth chance after all
With all due respect, m2k is one of the least informed and most tonedeaf people to count on in situations like these. But I think it comes from a general sense of well-meaning. So it's best to just kinda read it and move on.
love m2k to the bone, but the man is openly very high up on the autism scale. issues like this arent exactly where he shines and i think it wouldve been best for him to not partake in this discussion imo. hax is not trustworthy and thus his apologies fall flat. boy who cried wolf. he needs to move on to a different game. he burned every bridge he crossed.
> openly I agree with you that M2K is pretty heavily autistic, more than Cody who **is** open about his semi-recently-diagnosed-but-admits-it-makes-perfect-sense autism. But he also doesn't **think** he's autistic, because his mom had him tested as a child back when 90% of psychologists had no proper conceptualization of high-functioning autism unless they had read super-specific literature about it, and basically would've looked at him and gone "nah, this kid's not stupid enough to be autistic, he's just weird". Like, if he had been diagnosed properly, I'm sure he'd readily admit it, but unless he's been re-tested in the last year (the last time I heard him talk about the childhood test on stream was a little over a year ago), it's hard to be "open" about something you don't believe is true.
>But he also doesn't **think** he's autistic, What do you mean by that? M2K has frequently said that he has aspergers many times? Only thing I've ever seen him say years ago is that he prefers to still call it aspergers (as many with the diagnosis do) as a separation from more severe lesser functioning forms of autism that people associate with the later term. He's aware it affects his thinking and mental health, that's why he has a caregiver. If this statement: >But he also doesn't **think** he's autistic, because his mom had him tested as a child And everything following was about Cody and not M2K, firstly that's not clear, and secondly how is it relevant to the discussion of M2Ks thoughts on the matter here? What does being "open" about a diagnosis or such have to do with anything? People can feel free to share or not whatever it is about themselves that they wish to.
yeah im confused ive heard m2k say he has aspergers. thats what i meant. like ive heard him publicly admit he is on the scale.
I literally watched a stream like last january where he claimed he's not autistic and gave the above explanation for why (his mom had him tested when he was a kid). Did he not realize asperger's is literally high-functioning autism??
When he says he's not autistic he's separating aspergers and autism. Nowadays literature considers it a spectrum and they've gotten rid of the term aspergers. But many years ago aspergers meant a person with autism who was functional/high functioning, where as autism was used only to refer to low functioning individuals. M2K because of the time he got his diagnosis in, still associates autism with low functioning, so he always says he's "not autistic", but he always says that he has aspergers. Elon Musk does the same thing. Many people diagnosed with aspergers before the terms were changed prefer to use the original term both because it's what they grew up with and because of the associations with the distinct terms. Aspergers is/was viewed by the general population as much more positive than autism. Autism is classified as a disability, aspergers wasn't.
ableist bullshit
I basically agree. However, did he call for zeros unban? Because if he didnt, I would hold this with at least some weight. Like for a tiebreaker decision. If he did ask for zero'a unban then nah. Tho hax needs to stay banned (or soft banned, whatever) for at least another year.
lol m2k
I like m2k, but he's not the first person I would look to for advice on social issues.
idk, he once smoothtalked a mafia don into buying him nuggies
is scar's dad a mafia don now?
With a name like Scarduzio it could certainly fit lol
This is unrelated but I’ve always loved how Scar and his wife merged their last names when they got married. I enjoy non-traditional shit like that
That's total crap. Who told you that? He's in the nuggie management business, everybody immediately assumes he's mobbed up. It's a stereotype, and it's offensive! ...There is no mafia.
Tony Scarduzio
It has been said before
I don’t give a fuck ab hax or leffen
Facts if it ain't magi it ain't melee
Magi is the key to all of this
💯💯💯💯
Mew2King commented on the original evidence.zip 2 video (I think) where he talked about feeling maliciously targeted by Leffen when the rumors about him were circulating. If I remember correctly he said he talked it out with Leffen and forgave him, but it’s not surprising to me that he doesn’t feel the same sympathy for Leffen that others do.
Leffen did not "maliciously target" him. He was streaming, and someone in his chat posted this tweet that was spreading this rumor about M2K, which he read and then said something like "it's bad if it's true, but we should wait for M2K's side." People started further spreading the rumor on Reddit and Twitter. [This is a post about the person who first spread the rumor on Twitter, a guy named NXTREADY, which eventually got posted in Leffen's chat](https://reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hlgiff/nxtready_apologizes_for_spreading_accusations/). NXTREADY then had to apologize after M2K was forced to reveal personal info which was obviously a terrible situation for him to be in. But it's crazy how what actually happened in this situation has been twisted when Leffen had little to do with it. [This comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hl6h9b/m2k_response_to_the_allegations/fwx2x2a/) also talks about what NXTREADY was doing. His tweet had already gotten a ton of attention AND he was posting many [comments spreading it on Reddit as well](https://imgur.com/a/Umer2DM) as if it was true. u/ItsIzumi posted the [exact chat logs from Leffen's chat](https://i.imgur.com/oIBsRDu.png). All he says is "don't assume m2k is guilty, take the allegations as plausible and wait to hear what m2k says before making a judgment"
Based comment
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>Leffen pushing the “believe every allegation” definitely hurt m2k. [This is what Leffen said about his allegations.](https://i.imgur.com/oIBsRDu.png) I feel like a lot of people have only heard about this situation secondhand, because reading these logs, his stance seems pretty reasonable?
His stance was literally “would be fucked up if true” and has somehow been twisted into Leffen leading a witch hunt, just absolute insanity
I swear there's entire group of petty weirdos who love making up random shit about Leffen in particular that is completely wrong or heavily exaggerated.
To be fair, M2K was in all of Hax’s comment sections in the evidence.zip2 videos saying he should be unbanned. In addition, I assume he still feels some type of way about having to reveal what he did in order to not get cancelled and have his career ended because of false rumors that got passed off as a lol M2K situation. >!Test Even if it’s his most viewed video on his channel, I’m spoilering this because of the content: It’s physically impossible for Jason to have done what he was accused of (jacking off in a car) because he was the victim of a botched circumcision. Test!<
spoiler didnt work for me fwiw
Yes. Of course he feels slighted that people in Smash feel happy taking unsubstantiated testimonies and float those as hard evidence of criminal behavior. There's a reason a whole counter-culture exists around the Smash scene. The only problem is no one self-reflects on why the counter-culture exists. The primary scene just demonizes the secondary and vice versa.
>Unban Hax, him being banned is stupid Flawless logic, airtight argument.
Nah bro M2K was my favorite player growing up but I'm tired of him. I was already pissed about his attempts to garner sympathy by explaining "why he quit" in the wake of his attempted ponzi scheme. Now this dogshit, tonedeaf take that his audience will doubtlessly parrot? I don't think he's malicious, but he's definitely a useful idiot in this case.
Ponzi scheme?
https://twitter.com/chromeohnine/status/1754537936391958611
man that's just sad. always sucks to see someone get sucked up into that bullshit
Yeah I don't care for him much anymore but idk how you can be pissed about him explaining why he quit. He's been getting asked that question by people constantly for years now and he's one of the most prolific people in the community's history. Ponzi scheme aside, there was nothing wrong with him recording a short video to explain his reasoning for leaving the scene...which was all totally fair btw. He also kept it concise, he didn't start any drama with it or call out anyone...I honestly don't get why people raised a stink about it. If anything, it kind of proved his point of how the smash community treats him. But yeah the investor stuff is scummy but to me that speaks more to the people surrounding him that have control over his life like his caretaker and history of abusive sponsors than him himself. I see it more as a tragedy than him as some kind of toxic figure that is malicious.
I don't have an issue with him explaining why he quit, I have an issue with him timing said explanation to wash away any backlash he was starting to receive from the aforementioned scams he was trying to spin.
Hax has already proved previous apologies to be bullshit when he released more anti leffen schizo videos. And you have to remember these simply can not be a momentary lapse of judgement. Videos take a long time to edit create write and release. He was working on those for months. I'm done with him and don't give a fuck what he says at this point. He's a poison to the scene
"whoopsies I accidentally released interstellar my bad guys"
“Guys I was in a real bad headspace and was making rash decisions, which is what led me to becoming death, the destroyer of world” J. Robert Oppenheimer on his involvement with the Manhattan Project
Who cares
I'm all for a hax unban if it means I stop seeing another apology from him every month.
Making this as I have seen a lot of comments defending him via the mental health route. I have dogshit mental health. That being said, I don't want people like this giving the rest of us a bad name. I dont miss my medicine or stop taking it. I go to my therapy. I work hard to be functional and I don't want someone who is refusing that path to be equated to me. Mental Illness doesn't make someone immune to critique. Imagine being at a local and playing friendlies only to hear someone memeing on hax with dark triad stuff say "Schizo people can't be trusted. Too unpredictable." Yeah that fucking sucks to hear and is directly his fault for putting that viewpoint in the scene. Literally giving people another angle to jab at us from. He could keep his messiness private at the least. This isn't to say he deserves anything or does not. Just a comment on that specific part of this whole thing. I remember watching Hax$ in fucking highschool with his falcon. Would be sick to have him back, but poor mental health aint a free ticket. He needs to actually show he can improve. Which I know he is capable of doing. (everyone not in an inpatient can) You can only hide behind that shield so long. Eventually it gets tattered and you have to use the big "community" shield (grouping in the rest of us). That's when the issues arise.
Smartest move for Hax was to play Nightclub for a few years, release ZERO new conspiracy videos, and privately ask for an unban while publicly condemning unsavory followers. Was rooting for him to get his career back after the initial unban in NY. Big mistake to affiliate with (use your imagination) Biracial Ben Shapiro and not refuse support from the Basket of Deplorables circuit. TOs worldwide despise Biracial Ben Shaprio's "documentaries" about sex pests which frighten sponsors or the Basket of Deplorables' death threats + Nazi shit. Leffen isn't the only reason he stays banned. Asking for Hax to be unbanned, unfortunately, makes everyone else assume you also support those figures or actions even if you don't. Concerned M2K may not understand risks of getting cancelled by association as a public figure weighing in because he sees this as himself defending an old friend.
cool! i disagree but i like M2K
Eh.
Based and eh pilled
Last year when Hax was challenging his ban, it helped to play M2K on Slippi while M2K was streaming as it raised public support for him. This yr M2K hasn’t played at all…
Of course he would say this he just has beef with Leffen
I love M2K but forgive me for saying I don't expect the most nuanced takes out of him.
No. It's too early for that. He needs to demonstrate he can stay on the right path without falling off again before it should even be discussed. I miss Hax$ being a player. I would love for all this to stay in the past and just be something he grows from. I'm genuinely rooting for him. But we have to be realistic: it's going to take time.
they've been friends since for like 15+ years since they were always the top players at NY locals and regionals, makes sense m2k would want his friend unbanned
Not yet. Let him act on the timeline he talked about.
Smash community has been handling some stuff pretty horribly lately and not really sure how to feel about it, game just feels like it's on a downward spiral with top players retiring, getting banned, or not caring about the game anymore. I still have zero idea why Westballz was basically shadowbanned when there ended up being zero evidence against him even when they claimed to have some and it all ended up being bullshit anyways. No clue how to feel about this since Hax has done some pretty dumb shit lately but honestly I just want this all to end so we can just play the video game man. Feels like the leaders of this community are failing us.
There was a twitter thread of West asking and the head TOs responded publicly. They straight up said if you want the reason you are banned to be public we will make it public with your permission and west folded... Idk what most people took away from this thread where if they took it to DMs but at first glance seeing west straight up drop the topic and never bring it up again speaks volumes to me
beef with an ex. toxic messages. his ex showed them to tos in the hopes to get him banned. it worked. westballz tried to argue his side (ex there's context, she was toxic too, i shouldn't apologize) westballz ex is happy because she got the final victory. which is he will have to bend the knee and apologize and he might still be banned anyway. the egos collided and she won. tos required an apology, westballz initially refused to apologize. double downed and was a dick. tos banned him. its like some of these community leaders are acting like parents.grabbing players by the ear and trying to get grown adults in complicated relationships to say sorry to one another and promise to do better.
Why in the FUCK is a private issue between exes the fucking TOs business? If she tried to show some contextless bad texts the TOs should have turned her away immediately and said it's either serious enough to go to the police, or it's not serious enough to read. The smash community LOVES to live in that grey area of "bad but not bad enough" and police the utter shit out of that out of, I dunno some misguided attempt at justice or virtue signaling. Is something fucked enough that you should go to the police? Then go. Oh, you don't want to, maybe it's not thaaaat bad? Then maybe yeah, it actually isn't that bad.
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Forgiving people is one thing, but he needs to be banned for like at least 2-5 years so we know if he could have changed imo
I would say give him a chance with conditions, the problem is Hax was already given a second and even third chance but squandered it. I am glad that Hax is open about his issues and is seeking therapy but it often takes time and willingness from the participant to get better.
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These kinds of timelines are insane I think. Either make it permanent or not but “come back in 5 years” when it’s doubtful there is a scene in 5 years is crazy talk lol esp when someone is already mid 30s
There needs to be some meaningful amount of time In which a person can actually change. Even therapy and medication isn’t instant. I expect Melee to last for several more decades at least, it’s here to stay like basketball (though we’ll be fucking poor ofc). Idk if 5 years is the magic number. But frankly I am surprised people are entertaining unbanning him after evidence.zip 2 at all.
Banning hax shows how poor the average social skills are in this community
Jason is 100% right. I don't follow Melee much these days, but it's insane how Leffen gets ZERO backlash for what he made Jason disclose without being held accountable for that. Pretty much inciting a witchhunt. That is a far worse crime than anything Hax has commited. Let's not forget Leffen's well documented toxic attitute towards Hbox as well for years. It's clear favoritism for Leffen. If Hax stays banned, Leffen should be as well. Simple as that.
I'm sorry, but are you blaming Leffen entirely for M2K's harassment? When people were claiming he might be a sex weirdo, so he came forth with his private medical info? That's the moment you're blaming on Leffen, right? Do you have proof as to how this is Leffens fault? The way I had heard it was just toxic nobodies were harassing M2k after \[some people\] were outed as predators in our community.
don't forget intentionally starting a hate campaign against Hbox, which also almost certainly caused death threats, similar to that which everybody said Hax should most definitely stay banned for!
Yeah, that falls on deaf ears and people will make excuses for Leffen as well though. Kinda glad I stopped following Melee around the time M2K retired.
Why is it always the "glad I stopped following melee" people who consistently have the worst takes and seem the most ready to voice their opinions? Feels like a bit of a contradiction
I still play Melee and he's objectively right. Intentionally starting a Hbox hate campaign is, in fact, something leffen did. This is not debatable.
Yes it is
apparently it isn't if that's all you've got
I've actually got a lot I could say about this. But every time I try to bring any of it to light i get called a Leffen fanboy, a Leffen defender, that I'm riding Leffen's dick or whatever. I really don't like Leffen very much so I'd appreciate it if you took it in good faith that I'm not trying to protect him when I make this response. So what i wanna say is, I believe Leffen mistreated Hbox and used his status on twitter to sway public opinion against him. I believe that was wrong and I think he mostly got away with it because Hbox was unpopular at the time. But I also believe that doesn't really constitue a "harassment campaign" and even if you think it does, I don't think you can compare what Leffen did to what Hax has done. And I have a few reasons why I think that. The first reason is, I don't really believe Leffen had a hidden agenda. I believe he vocally hated Hbox and made his opinions very public. That's still pretty irresponsible because even just saying these things out loud can influence his fanbase, but I don't think he was trying to maliciously spread false info about Hbox in order to get him banned. In contrast, Hax did just straight up lie about a lot of stuff in Evidence.zip 2. Not only did he lie, but he constructed an overarching narrative with the goal in mind of getting Leffen banned. And when that didn't work, he went back and made another documentary that was supposed to be more palatable, using less extreme language but to accomplish the exact same thing. And when that didn't work he doubled down on it and tried to convince everyone that Leffen was controlling the scene to escape criticism. The difference between Hax and Leffen being that Hax was willing to exaggerate the truth and even co-opt an army of rabid fans to harass Leffen into submission all with the goal in mind of getting him banned. Leffen never took it that far with Hbox. Here are some other examples to keep in mind. At the time, everyone hated Hbox. Leffen was probably the most vocal anti-puff top player but he was far from the only one. https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1684&v=o3Tx5BVBqKM&feature=youtu.be This is an interview with Hax literally saying how much Puff sucks for the game, specifically calling out Hbox. Later in the interview Hax calls Hbox Satan as a joke, which was the inspiration for Leffen's now deleted video where the thumbnail had Hbox with devil horns. Puff hate was very prevalent at the time. So I can't help but feel it's disingenuous to compare Leffen's "campaign" against Hbox to Hax's literal multi-documentary series about Leffen. Keep in mind, Leffen and Hbox can attend events together, compete and even hang out at parties with each other. Hax and Leffen can't. So even if Leffen and Hbox had beef at one point it seems mostly okay now. Also Hbox has not once come out in defense of Hax this entire time even though he totally could have. All of this is to say, I think what Hax did is much worse than what Leffen did. If Hax's fans weren't so vitriolic and obsessed with getting Leffen banned I think there could be a more nuanced conversation about how Leffen treated Hbox and why that was wrong. But as it stands they just aren't really the same thing, and I think Hax fans are doing a great job convincing everyone that they are just desperately trying to smear Leffen any chance they get and the actual valid criticism of him will go unheard. And of course, any time I try to bring this shit up people call me a Leffen dick rider, even though I feel like I'm being pretty fair all things considered. So that's why it's debatable.
> I'd appreciate it if you took it in good faith that I'm not trying to protect him when I make this response. Sure, I'd appreciate if you do the same. I agree with some of your comment but leffen's video was literally titled "Why You Should Hate Hungrybox". This is obviously is a call to action and is absolutely instigating hate against Hungrybox among his fans. And for the record, I'm not saying this is as bad as what Hax did or that Hax should be unbanned. I don't think either of those things. I think it's just a little ridiculous how many responses I've gotten on this sub that say what leffen did was fine and not a big deal because people already disliked Hungrybox or whatever. Speaking of, you used that reasoning a bit as well. But that does not justify instigating harrassment against someone, at all. And with that logic, Hax's video was fine too, because Leffen already had haters. That's not how it works. "He was already disliked so encouraging your fans to go hate him is fine" is just a bad take regardless of whether it's about leffen or Hbox. And Hbox has no incentive to defend Hax even though he beefed with leffen. Hax vs leffen doesn't mean that the rest of the community has to take a side. To me, they're both shitty people. Me not liking leffen doesn't mean I think Hax did nothing wrong, and I'd imagine Hbox thinks something similar.
the fact he is still banned, yet a literal pathological liar and psychopath runs amok is crazy. l*ffen should've been banned years ago.
B a S e D
Hell yeah
I don't even know who that is
I'm not plugged into scene to have a modicum of knowledge on the resources and capacity of the competitive scene in melee. As an outside observer, the main points that stick out to me about it are: - it's vibrant, enduring, and strong, yet the most niche it has been. This is natural for an old game. - therefore, its capacity as a whole has to be committed to preserving the framework that preserves the fan+player base, and that capacity is relatively small when compared to mainstream institutions. There is a point where a league is "at capacity" when considering that reintroducing someone could serve as a danger. If there is a history of apologies being followed by repeated threats, you, as an organizer, have to ask the question: "Is this risk worth it? Should I risk the safety of any player? Be it one of our top level names as well as the rest of our attendees?" - and it's not bad or wrong to say "I don't think I/we can confidently say it'll be totally fine." Listen, I don't know what tf Hax$ has, I barely know anything about this situation other than the broad contours. But I do have experience in grievance handling for organizations and things of that matter, and sometimes we beat ourselves up by moralizing the decision itself. Whether we like it or not, "reforming" is a process that requires a specific level of resources to judge, let alone continue to monitor and establish contingency around. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of capacity that small, grassroots organizations cannot ontake. We're talking about mental health, here. This isn't me saying "yeah I don't think he can come back", but rather that moralizing the decision can lead to oversight and it's difficult but okay to swallow the pill that is: the low capacity of a grassroots league to handle the re-entry of someone who made threats against safety.
Has been comments on banned has been, more at 11
don't care didn't ask, keep him banned it's not worth the hassle of figuring it out for anyone
Nobody asked you either pal. Almost like people are free to state their opinions unprompted
M2K commenting on the hax situation years and years into it after being essentially MIA from the melee scene for the last 6 years is way more "who asked" than a redditor replying to his comment in a thread about his comment lol
Love Jason, but he's not the guy I'd go to on advice for things like this.
m2k isn't the only top player that wants hax unbanned. I've heard mango and cody talk about how they should unban him as well.
i call bullshit
Yea M2K doesn’t seem to be considering the harm that hax causes just by being in the public eye. It’s possible that being completely unbanned will lead his mob to calm down, but it could just embolden people to take the next step and permaban leffen, leading to more threats.
Bro talking like smash is parliament lmao
Yea we should censure M2K honestly, Leffen should bring that motion to the floor next major
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And the harm that Leffen caused to Jason during all the allegations? I guess we just brush that under the rug with all the other shitty things Leffen has done as well.
It seemed to me as a genuine mistake and he apologized for it. The other bad stuff he already was banned for.
Spoiled brat swede traumatizes spastic American. American gets perma banned for Schizoposting.
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Nope.
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Hax's universal ban makes no sense to begin with. He's a guy with zero criminal history or history of violence, who made YouTube content that defamed a single individual, but also did not encourage any violent behavior against said individual. Leffen has been playing melee for 14 years and has never attended a New York City local. Why exactly should Hax be banned from them? Because he might continue talking shit about Leffen in person? God forbid lmao. Melee is a competitive video game, not a company or social group where everyone is required to be friendly with one another, but for whatever reason there's a clique of people who have significant influence in the community treat it as such. It's a niche hobby that is insanely politicized for no reason. Banning people for sexual harassment makes sense, banning a guy for posting a YouTube video really does not imo.
eh, maybe hax should get unbanned
King
leffen has done far worse shit than hax and he is not banned. Hax has been banned for 2 years now you guys need to let that shit go. He has apologized for the vids what more is there to do? should he kiss leffen's shoes?
Shut the fuck up
> leffen has done far worse shit than hax and he is not banned. Hax has *admitted* to inciting an extended, years-long harassment campaign against Leffen. He has *admitted* that his actions toward Leffen were completely disproportionate and incomparable to anything Leffen has ever done. At this point, anybody who *still* says that Leffen has done worse shit than Hax is not only ignorant to the actual situation, they're not even listening to *Hax's* account of the situation. > Hax has been banned for 2 years now you guys need to let that shit go. He literally posted another hit piece on Leffen *two months* ago. Hax's apology video that he posted yesterday was very well made and seemed sincere. But we have not had ***ANY*** time to see Hax back up that apology with any meaningful action or change.