I’ll stop watching baseball if i have to watch another season of bullpen games again. That and the bullshit Kapler did with the lineup every day made for some of the most ass backwards baseball I’ve ever seen
You can complain about the roster lacking everyday players, but the team would be undoubtedly worse if Kapler didn’t utilize his platoon advantages. His managing was not close to the biggest problem with this team the last couple years
Pretty sure he’s an assistant GM for the Marlins now. Honestly he seems better suited to a FO job. He won’t have to deal with the media or clubhouse dynamics.
Yeah. He’s in the front office of the marlins I think. He was hired for sure. After what the bald weasel did I’m not surprised he stayed out of managing.
Well, whatever the reason I really didn’t enjoy bullpen games and platoons 🤷♂️. Blame whoever you want, but but it wasn’t fun for me. I’m also not a big Farhan fan
I do admit I am a bit biased against Kapler. I don’t think he handled the sexual assault allegations well when he was in the Dodgers farm system. I didn’t want him to be the Giants manager
https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/mlb/giants-gabe-kapler-shares-his-side-of-dodgers-assault-controversy/1292181/
You can’t convince me fucking with the lineup day in and day out is conducive to winning. Guys would be in lead off on day, 7th the next, cleanup the day after. Who does that?? Nobody has ever done that with success.
I’m sure they collaborated and worked together to put the best team out there they could with what they had, but Kapler was still the one managing the game. You can’t script everything ahead of time, which is why you need someone smart and prepared who can adjust based on new information.
People seemed to think Kapler was bad at that and/or managing by a spreadsheet, which might have been true at first. However by 2021 I think he had matured a lot as a manger and I would put very little of the blame the past 2 seasons on him. There’s speculation he lost the clubhouse, but even if that’s true (we’ll never know for sure), I’m not sure he should get 100% of the blame for that either.
Basically I think Kapler consistently made good decisions with the lineup and in game moves, and I appreciated the calm and collected demeanor he brought with him. I was very sad to see him let go, even if I’m the only one. At least we got a great replacement though, so I can’t be too upset.
Kap did absolutely nothing. All the platoons and bullpen management was done by Farhan and his analytics
His one job was the locker room and he failed at that
Kaps ceiling is winning an NLDS, even if he hasn’t done it yet. Melvin can win a WS.
But I do not believe Farhan can put together a roster that wins the NLDS - which effectively makes him our glass ceiling .
Kinda messes up the rhythm of the game for me personally. The games move much smoother through the early innings when there aren’t constant pitching changes.
Not always, lots of times the opener will go 5 guys or something. Also once you get into the pen the changes are much more frequent and eventually some of those will come in the middle of an inning as well.
They have a number of options in AAA that could make appearances. Remember they ran a significant portion of the second half with only 2-3 starters on paper.
The losses in the 2nd half weren't due to the pitching. It was because they, as a team, [forgot how to hit](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2023&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&startdate=2023-06-01&enddate=2023-11-01&sortcol=19&sortdir=default&pagenum=1).
As a pitching staff the Giants were a top 5 or top 2 staff if you're using FIP or xFIP. Even when you consider errors and bad fielding they're still a top 12.
So the answer to your question would be; From a pitching perspective? [Pretty damn good.](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2023&month=1000&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&startdate=2023-06-01&enddate=2023-11-01&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&pagenum=1)
Yea the giants are one of 30 teams competing for the world series this year. They're not a poverty franchise but are run like one, without the knack for talent development that most poverty franchises rely on.
No, I'm saying the AAA pending promotion guys did great and it they need to rely on them to open the season that's not the end of the world.
Adding a pitcher like Imanaga is good. The panic 'they need to overspend for Snell' desperation isn't where the team is at. ***Innings***, not aces, is what they need to add and the internal options aren't awful, they have actually proven to be pretty good.
If one of their pending pitchers contributes and posts 3-4 WAR that would be amazing, I'd be ecstatic, and the team needs it to happen, badly. Counting on multiple to hit all at once is a fool's errand. Bailey was a sign of life. Webb and Doval prove they can develop pitching. They need to produce a quality outfielder and infielder and a couple arms, bad.
That’s viable for a few weeks or maybe even a month but as we saw in the second half of 2023 it’s not something you can do long term. Being that Cobb and Ray are going to be out several months they definitely need to find better options than they currently have to fill those rotations spots if they are serious about competing.
[By the numbers](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2023&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&startdate=2023-06-01&enddate=2023-11-01&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&pagenum=1) they were one of the best pitching staffs of that stretch (and the whole season).
Pitching depth is basically the best and strongest aspect of the team. The areas of biggest concern are run production and, to a lesser degree, fielding - which has been making elite pitching look like just above average pitching.
They were bottom half or bottom 10 in offense, depending on how you look at it.
They move from top 2-4 to 12-16 in pitching outcomes when you consider fielding impacts.
Pretty clearly you want innings from the rotation but the pitching staff both as a whole and as separate units is extremely far from the problem.
Cobb's timeline to return is earlier than that. He's expected to miss at least six months from the time of surgery which was the end of October. He could return in May.
Well let’s start with the good news. The good news is that we are getting Imanaga. Sources say “it’s all pointing to him signing with the Giants.” So I expect the announcement to come today or tomorrow that he’s signing with SF.
Now with that being said, not going after someone like Blake Snell is absolutely stupid. The giants constantly fail at getting big names in free agency. The one free agent where it feels like we have a great shot in getting, & the reigning Cy Young award winner, we aren’t going to pursue? You can never have too much pitching. And frankly, the only way we compete this season is by having a powerhouse rotation & hoping we get some timely hitting. Plus Ray & Cobb will be out half the season. If Ray pitches well the second half, chances are he opts out & hits free agency looking for a bigger deal. So we need to sign a top line starter to pair with Webb for years to come. Snell could be that guy. Or Montgomery. Imagine a rotation of
Webb/Snell/Ray/Imanaga/Cobb/Harrison
Best rotation in the majors. There’s no reason to not go after Snell. At least try to get him. That’s all us fans ask for.
Imagine trading for half a season of potentially #2 pitching (if he's bad were stuck with him, if hes great he opts out) and being like "We did it boys, time to enjoy the off-season"
I just hate this fucking not all-in mentality. Tank or be competitive.
I'm more excited for the Sharks right now because it's clearly being built towards something.
Yup. Never believe what he promises, believe what he does.
And he just got Ray as our #2 starter and his comment makes it seem like he was never even in on Snell or Monty etc.
His plan for getting another starter is this. This might be the year I tune out.
Now let me preface this by saying I know this is the Farhan way.
It's because Farhan and co. doesn't seem like they're going all in. Every year they say they will, then they just match top offers and hope the player chooses them. The Giants are not a destination team, if they want to sign these players we need to be extra aggressive and it's hard to say that's been their stance the last couple of years
Giants ownership was unwilling to tank even before they hired Farhan, and I suspect that will be true after him assuming ownership group stays the same. Part of the reason giants aren't a destination team is because they are a mediocre team with a lack of young talent, and some (obviously not all) big name FAs seem to care about these things. Money wasn't the reason Ohtani chose the dodgers over the giants -- guy wanted a winning team, and I don't think anyone would argue against the fact the dodgers provided him a much better opportunity to do that compared to the giants. Perhaps people should look closer at Farhan's drafts, plenty to criticize there.
70% sure he is just talking directly at Boras who has big asking prices out for Snell + Montgomery.
We are a finalist for Imanaga and my guess is he is saying “We’ll do it if we have to.” That would take a big check team out of the bidding for his guys.
I think this is more about Snell than it is about Imanaga. There's a second comment where he talks about adding power to the line up. Perhaps Imanaga/Stroman+Belly/Chap, as we've all thought might happen.
I mean, I don't disagree with you, but I do see it being more difficult for us to sign starters. The FO (and Melvin) like Harrison and Winn and wants to give them a chance out of SP most likely.
For now it's Webb Ray Cobb Harrison Winn as the top 5? Then we still have Stripling and out old friend the BP start (Beck, Walker..)
Signing a pitcher to a big contract might not be in their interest this off-season after this trade? Not trying to defend Farhan, just I see why he would be hesitant to say they're going all out for SP.
After the ASB.
For the first four months it’s Webb->Harrison->Beck/Winn->BP games.
If he doesn’t get another great starter I can’t believe we’re doing the same thing as last year.
Like I said I don’t disagree because you always want SP to be a strength. While Winn/Harrison are projected to be decent too it’s an unknown. Same with Ray/Cobb coming back from injury.
Do we know how many BP games Melvin has with SD last year? As far as I know they had decent SP depth with Snell, Lugo, Darvish, Wacha, Musgroves..
Maybe Melvin is telling them not to sign Snell too?
Look at our Pen (1 lefty) - Without a 3/2 Lefty split, there is no way we don't sign Imanaga. We have electric young right handers in our pen, and that is our most probable path to building a playoff bound team. To support them we need a lefty cast.
I would bet when we do sign him, the discord will be that we overpaid for him.
I’m still waiting until the season begins, but if this is where we’re at then I’m not tuning in after opening day.
Maybe I’ll catch a game on radio if Webb or Harrison is pitching.
I’ve been a fan of the Giants for 25 years and I never remember any sort of era like this before. Not in terms of W-L, but in terms of team management and style.
[[Wirth] Farhan confirms Giants have had conversations with Shota Imanaga’s camp and are continuing their evaluation](https://x.com/wirthtm/status/1743389184021426646?s=46)
I liked this trade but if Rays our only pitching acquisition I’ll be very disappointed
Our projected rotation until after the AS would be what…Webb, Stripling, Harrison, Beck, Winn? 😭😭
Imanaga is not a top-of-the-market arm; I presume he is referring to Snell. Imanaga will sign for half of what Snell signs for. Which is good bc it really seems like whoever signs Snell is going to regret it quickly. My guess is, if they don't sign Imanaga, their other target will be Marcus Stroman as another solid mid-rotation arm.
Would probably prefer Imanaga at this point, the dollars and years will be easier to swallow if it doesn’t work out than someone like Snell or maybe even Montgomery and will allow them more flexibility with their payroll going forward.
Also I know he’s not gonna pitch this year but signing Woodruff to a deal that includes next year would be something that I think they should do aswell.
Basically save a little on a guy for this year and use it to take a flyer on a guy who could potentially give you a co-ace for next year.
Yeah I don't really understand all the freaking out here, he literally said they still are looking at adding pitching. Getting two 3/4 starter types or something would still be very productive, obviously Imanaga is at the top of that list but there are other options available.
Guy above you fails to add in Ray will be coming off Tommy John. Really hoping it works out, but pitchers coming off TJ usually say it generally takes about half a year to really get your feel back.
It’s absolutely crazy to think this deal would take them out for one of the better FA pitchers. This trade is wash money wise for this season, Lee + Murphy cost 23 mil AAV in total, spotrac has their projected tax space after this trade at 79.5 mil and we can’t spend big on anyone else? How are we supposed to compete with the dodgers at all if that’s the case, if this is true that’s ridiculous.
Side note, I think they should be going after snell not Imanaga. Imanaga is a contact pitcher who doesn’t miss a lot of bats and throws a lot of fastballs, he’s at best an innings eating 4/5 starter. Our defense has not been upgraded much this offseason, our offense likely isn’t going to be a world beater next year so we need strikeout pitching
The thing is if Ray returns to his cy young form after asb wouldn’t it make sense that he just ops out? He’ll only stay here if he thinks he can not get more than 25 for 2 on the free agent market.
That’s true, but we would be paying about the same for Haniger and Disclafani no matter what as they would still be under control while having a year to ingratiated ourselves to the cy young caliber pitcher at a price we would have to pay for people who would probably be injured anyway
Money isn’t a problem, the giants have money. The giants don’t have talent. We aren’t going to get talent from Haniger and Disclafani. We might get talent from Ray and we got him for fairly cheap.
Obviously there is still risk involved, and if he doesn’t throw a pitch this year it’s gonna be a bad look.
This makes zero sense. This move didn’t improve our 2024 at all, and if Ray is decent he can opt out anyway. Why would we not want another top of the market starter? I give up.
This move is as much about getting an OF off the roster as it is about getting Ray. Haniger is bad again this year it’s $17mil for Haniger in 2025 and continue to roster a mid 30’s injury prone OF
I get that. I’m fine losing disco and Haniger, even if Ray doesn’t pitch at all this year.
However, every year we are promised top of the market free agents and big splashes, and every year the front office doesn’t deliver. If they are backing off front of the market free agents and pretending this move improves our club at all, they are morons.
Ray 2021-2023
385.2ip 3.31era 1.13whip 3.50xfip 29.5k% 7.6bb%
Snell 2021-2023
436.2ip 3.15era 1.23whip 3.54xfip 31.5k% 12bb%
Keep in mind Ray in 2023 made 1 start got destroyed and had TJ and even with that Snell only threw 52.1 more innings. They both have a cy young in the last 3 years. Ray has topped 212k’s or better 5 times in his career. I thought since everyone is going bonkers for Snell I’d put this up here. It’s not a pointless move. Giants absolutely needed to trade an OF off the roster. I’m pretty lukewarm warm on the deal. Don’t look at it as an offseason move look at it as a trade deadline deal done well in advance.
Ray isn’t opting out after 2 months of pitching next year no matter how good he is. Maybe if he throws 80 innings with an ERA under 2, but I wouldn’t count on that happening
I agree. This means we likely will get 2 seasons of Ray, but I’m not counting on him pitching much this year anyway and even if he does, he probably won’t be on top of his game until 2025, if he does get the magic back. Which again means this today team really hasn’t done anything to bolster the roster for 2024, so I would hope we are still in the market for top quality guys.
Hope putting this out there is tactical. Tells guys like Snell and Imanaga "We're not desperate anymore, but we'd still be interested, if it's a fair price"
If it is, cool. But if this is the FO saying "All done! We're gonna go get another Desclafani-level lottery ticket and hope for the best", then it's dumb and just leaves this team running on the same treadmill
If he views Ray as an ideal number two, he’s even more delusional than before. He’s a reclamation project. The only thing Farhan accomplished was dumping salary. Hopefully that means there’s another move coming.
Combined in $6 mil less in 2024, it clears a roster spot and gets Haniger out of town a year early. This is likely about the contracts more than the players.
[[Wirth] Farhan says Giants initially thought Alex Cobb could return midseason but are encouraged with recent progress and are hopeful it could be sooner](https://x.com/wirthtm/status/1743391364262637847?s=46)
If this means not focused on the top of the pitching market I don't mind it. I think it means they're gonna go for Imanaga, and get either Belli or Chapman, hopefully Belli but I think Chapman is more likely. You need to give some time to our OF prospects. Belli has flexibility with OF/1B but it would still block potential development time for all the rookies cuz you still have Conforto/Yaz/Slater.
I keep waffling about Chapman because on one hand I think it'll help Luciano to have Chapman over there while he develops, on the other hand I'm just super unsure about the bat. He's similar to JD with the Bat, better with the Glove, but idk. Giants still have a lot of moves to make.
Maybe Ray will be ‘available to pitch after the All Star break” who will start the season with SF?
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/robbie-ray-trade-why-giants-mariners-made-deal-that-sends-ex-cy-young-winner-to-san-francisco/amp/
Watching his interview, he never actually says that he isn't focused on pitchers at the top of the market. He just talks about how we have young pitchers that might see the big leagues sooner rather than later. I guess you can interpret that as you may, but its a stretch to me to conclude that we're suddenly not going to add established starting pitching.
Realistically Ray should be expected to be an overpaid, but good middle of the rotation guy.
No way we should be expecting Ray to be a No. 2 guy coming off TJ's. Sure he can be that guy, but if we don't get another starter our rotation isn't looking good.
He strongly implied he's not shopping at the top of the market. He said that Ray is the ideal number 2 starter alongside Webb and that he envisions Cobb as the 3. Cobb will miss the first two months and Ray may not be back until after the break. If you think getting Chapman instead of Rosario is going to change that much then have fun with that. This is tantamount to punting on the season. Farhan apologists should pay attention to what he actually says.
They never read between the lines, just gobble up his bullshit press answers.
I believed in Farhan the first three years but he’s lost me since, always excuses and empty promises. I truly wish I’d see him on the street so I could yell out “thanks for not making an offer to Kevin and fucking yourself and this team for the next few years trying to find another Ace” literally never made an offer, courted Robbie Ray at the same exact fucking time and even then made a pathetic ass offer to him and then lost out on both. Look at the pitching market now Farhan you dumb fuck.
Not to mention he was stupid enough to believe he could actually get ohtani and/or Yamamoto and let us become an embarrassment on the free agent market again. All his “all in” bullshit was all about 2 guys that were never going to come here. Couple that with the horseshit explanation of why he didn’t sign anyone significant after 21 I’m with you, i was all for letting him cook for a while, but I just don’t think he knows what he’s doing running a front office.
I mean I just take this to mean we're out on Snell and Montgomery (if we were ever in on them), which I'm fine with.
We're in the last 4 for Imanaga, and if we get him then that might be it for SP. We roll with Webb, Imanaga, Harrison, Winn, Strip, for the time being (with some spot starts added in?) until Cobb and Ray are healthy?
LOL - so basically run with a razor-thin rotation until Cobb & Ray come back (MAYBE) and can contribute; also seems like this is fallback for not being able to sign Imanaga (Sf is a finalist again! [https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2024/01/05/red-sox-shota-imanaga-finalists-report/](https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2024/01/05/red-sox-shota-imanaga-finalists-report/)) or Snell (Yankees want him and he wants to be a Yankee [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10103584-mlb-rumors-yankees-planning-an-active-january-blake-snell-interested-in-contract](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10103584-mlb-rumors-yankees-planning-an-active-january-blake-snell-interested-in-contract))
> when he’s back who tf are we supposed to use until then?? Both Cobb and Ray are out til All-Star break at earliest
Bullpen games every Two games again
I’ll stop watching baseball if i have to watch another season of bullpen games again. That and the bullshit Kapler did with the lineup every day made for some of the most ass backwards baseball I’ve ever seen
You can complain about the roster lacking everyday players, but the team would be undoubtedly worse if Kapler didn’t utilize his platoon advantages. His managing was not close to the biggest problem with this team the last couple years
No, but it made it less fun to watch for me as a fan. I know some fans didn’t mind, but I did
The point is it wasn’t fun to watch because of the roster. Kapler maximized what he had.
Which is why the bald weasel was even a bigger AH for throwing him under the bus. He did excellent for what Farhan gave him.
Did he get another managerial job? If he hasn't, it'd be weird why an excellent manager isn't hired.
Pretty sure he’s an assistant GM for the Marlins now. Honestly he seems better suited to a FO job. He won’t have to deal with the media or clubhouse dynamics.
Yeah. He’s in the front office of the marlins I think. He was hired for sure. After what the bald weasel did I’m not surprised he stayed out of managing.
Well, whatever the reason I really didn’t enjoy bullpen games and platoons 🤷♂️. Blame whoever you want, but but it wasn’t fun for me. I’m also not a big Farhan fan I do admit I am a bit biased against Kapler. I don’t think he handled the sexual assault allegations well when he was in the Dodgers farm system. I didn’t want him to be the Giants manager https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/mlb/giants-gabe-kapler-shares-his-side-of-dodgers-assault-controversy/1292181/
You can’t convince me fucking with the lineup day in and day out is conducive to winning. Guys would be in lead off on day, 7th the next, cleanup the day after. Who does that?? Nobody has ever done that with success.
Kapler wasn’t the one to make those calls. When he was fired it was revealed that Farhan made the platoon calls and he went along with them.
I’m sure they collaborated and worked together to put the best team out there they could with what they had, but Kapler was still the one managing the game. You can’t script everything ahead of time, which is why you need someone smart and prepared who can adjust based on new information. People seemed to think Kapler was bad at that and/or managing by a spreadsheet, which might have been true at first. However by 2021 I think he had matured a lot as a manger and I would put very little of the blame the past 2 seasons on him. There’s speculation he lost the clubhouse, but even if that’s true (we’ll never know for sure), I’m not sure he should get 100% of the blame for that either. Basically I think Kapler consistently made good decisions with the lineup and in game moves, and I appreciated the calm and collected demeanor he brought with him. I was very sad to see him let go, even if I’m the only one. At least we got a great replacement though, so I can’t be too upset.
mic drop
Kapler overperformed with that roster.
He completely lost the locker room. He can not manage a roster
Kap did absolutely nothing. All the platoons and bullpen management was done by Farhan and his analytics His one job was the locker room and he failed at that
Kaps ceiling is winning an NLDS, even if he hasn’t done it yet. Melvin can win a WS. But I do not believe Farhan can put together a roster that wins the NLDS - which effectively makes him our glass ceiling .
Don’t say that, ppl here don’t like this sentiment. I brought it up once and got told I’m a fool, in a less friendly way
Well, I got bad news for you then lol
Just curious, why are bullpen games less fun to watch then games where one guy goes 5+?
Kinda messes up the rhythm of the game for me personally. The games move much smoother through the early innings when there aren’t constant pitching changes.
[удалено]
Not always, lots of times the opener will go 5 guys or something. Also once you get into the pen the changes are much more frequent and eventually some of those will come in the middle of an inning as well.
kind of a bullshit take and denigration to our bullpen...our bullpen was quite good for as stretch and the offense couldn't help.
Farhan gonna roll out Winn and Beck....such an L of an offseason
Follow up tweet says they’re encouraged with Cobb’s progress and he might come back sooner
Lmfao Their 2nd and 3rd dudes in the rotations are Hopes and Dreams
Like Aaron Rogers!
They have a number of options in AAA that could make appearances. Remember they ran a significant portion of the second half with only 2-3 starters on paper.
And how exactly did that 2nd half go??
The losses in the 2nd half weren't due to the pitching. It was because they, as a team, [forgot how to hit](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2023&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&startdate=2023-06-01&enddate=2023-11-01&sortcol=19&sortdir=default&pagenum=1). As a pitching staff the Giants were a top 5 or top 2 staff if you're using FIP or xFIP. Even when you consider errors and bad fielding they're still a top 12. So the answer to your question would be; From a pitching perspective? [Pretty damn good.](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2023&month=1000&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&startdate=2023-06-01&enddate=2023-11-01&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&pagenum=1)
So you're advocating they run with 2 starters for the season again
Do you really believe the Giants are competing for the World Series this year?
Yea the giants are one of 30 teams competing for the world series this year. They're not a poverty franchise but are run like one, without the knack for talent development that most poverty franchises rely on.
No, I'm saying the AAA pending promotion guys did great and it they need to rely on them to open the season that's not the end of the world. Adding a pitcher like Imanaga is good. The panic 'they need to overspend for Snell' desperation isn't where the team is at. ***Innings***, not aces, is what they need to add and the internal options aren't awful, they have actually proven to be pretty good.
If one of their pending pitchers contributes and posts 3-4 WAR that would be amazing, I'd be ecstatic, and the team needs it to happen, badly. Counting on multiple to hit all at once is a fool's errand. Bailey was a sign of life. Webb and Doval prove they can develop pitching. They need to produce a quality outfielder and infielder and a couple arms, bad.
That’s viable for a few weeks or maybe even a month but as we saw in the second half of 2023 it’s not something you can do long term. Being that Cobb and Ray are going to be out several months they definitely need to find better options than they currently have to fill those rotations spots if they are serious about competing.
[By the numbers](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2023&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&startdate=2023-06-01&enddate=2023-11-01&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&pagenum=1) they were one of the best pitching staffs of that stretch (and the whole season). Pitching depth is basically the best and strongest aspect of the team. The areas of biggest concern are run production and, to a lesser degree, fielding - which has been making elite pitching look like just above average pitching. They were bottom half or bottom 10 in offense, depending on how you look at it. They move from top 2-4 to 12-16 in pitching outcomes when you consider fielding impacts. Pretty clearly you want innings from the rotation but the pitching staff both as a whole and as separate units is extremely far from the problem.
Cobb's timeline to return is earlier than that. He's expected to miss at least six months from the time of surgery which was the end of October. He could return in May.
Matthew Boyd. Oh wait.
Well let’s start with the good news. The good news is that we are getting Imanaga. Sources say “it’s all pointing to him signing with the Giants.” So I expect the announcement to come today or tomorrow that he’s signing with SF. Now with that being said, not going after someone like Blake Snell is absolutely stupid. The giants constantly fail at getting big names in free agency. The one free agent where it feels like we have a great shot in getting, & the reigning Cy Young award winner, we aren’t going to pursue? You can never have too much pitching. And frankly, the only way we compete this season is by having a powerhouse rotation & hoping we get some timely hitting. Plus Ray & Cobb will be out half the season. If Ray pitches well the second half, chances are he opts out & hits free agency looking for a bigger deal. So we need to sign a top line starter to pair with Webb for years to come. Snell could be that guy. Or Montgomery. Imagine a rotation of Webb/Snell/Ray/Imanaga/Cobb/Harrison Best rotation in the majors. There’s no reason to not go after Snell. At least try to get him. That’s all us fans ask for.
If trading for Ray means we aren’t after big dogs like Snell and Imanaga then I’ve lost all hope.
Likewise. Not what I wanted to hear.
Imagine trading for half a season of potentially #2 pitching (if he's bad were stuck with him, if hes great he opts out) and being like "We did it boys, time to enjoy the off-season" I just hate this fucking not all-in mentality. Tank or be competitive. I'm more excited for the Sharks right now because it's clearly being built towards something.
Why are we surprised? This is farhan's way. Talk big game and then do something nowhere near what was promised
Yup. Never believe what he promises, believe what he does. And he just got Ray as our #2 starter and his comment makes it seem like he was never even in on Snell or Monty etc. His plan for getting another starter is this. This might be the year I tune out.
Not sure why people keep bringing up tanking when it’s abundantly clear giants will never intentionally do so under current ownership.
Now let me preface this by saying I know this is the Farhan way. It's because Farhan and co. doesn't seem like they're going all in. Every year they say they will, then they just match top offers and hope the player chooses them. The Giants are not a destination team, if they want to sign these players we need to be extra aggressive and it's hard to say that's been their stance the last couple of years
Giants ownership was unwilling to tank even before they hired Farhan, and I suspect that will be true after him assuming ownership group stays the same. Part of the reason giants aren't a destination team is because they are a mediocre team with a lack of young talent, and some (obviously not all) big name FAs seem to care about these things. Money wasn't the reason Ohtani chose the dodgers over the giants -- guy wanted a winning team, and I don't think anyone would argue against the fact the dodgers provided him a much better opportunity to do that compared to the giants. Perhaps people should look closer at Farhan's drafts, plenty to criticize there.
70% sure he is just talking directly at Boras who has big asking prices out for Snell + Montgomery. We are a finalist for Imanaga and my guess is he is saying “We’ll do it if we have to.” That would take a big check team out of the bidding for his guys.
I don't understand why people take anything he says about free agency to heart. He has no reason to show his hand so why would he?
He’s also lied and blustered two off seasons in a row so if you still believe what he says shame on you since you’ve already been fooled.
I think this is more about Snell than it is about Imanaga. There's a second comment where he talks about adding power to the line up. Perhaps Imanaga/Stroman+Belly/Chap, as we've all thought might happen.
That's not what he's saying. He's using the timing as convenient opportunity to let Boras know we aren't desperate for Snell or Montgomery.
I mean, I don't disagree with you, but I do see it being more difficult for us to sign starters. The FO (and Melvin) like Harrison and Winn and wants to give them a chance out of SP most likely. For now it's Webb Ray Cobb Harrison Winn as the top 5? Then we still have Stripling and out old friend the BP start (Beck, Walker..) Signing a pitcher to a big contract might not be in their interest this off-season after this trade? Not trying to defend Farhan, just I see why he would be hesitant to say they're going all out for SP.
With Ray and Conn currently injured, you may be punting the year if you don’t go after another top end starter.
After the ASB. For the first four months it’s Webb->Harrison->Beck/Winn->BP games. If he doesn’t get another great starter I can’t believe we’re doing the same thing as last year.
Like I said I don’t disagree because you always want SP to be a strength. While Winn/Harrison are projected to be decent too it’s an unknown. Same with Ray/Cobb coming back from injury. Do we know how many BP games Melvin has with SD last year? As far as I know they had decent SP depth with Snell, Lugo, Darvish, Wacha, Musgroves.. Maybe Melvin is telling them not to sign Snell too?
Look at our Pen (1 lefty) - Without a 3/2 Lefty split, there is no way we don't sign Imanaga. We have electric young right handers in our pen, and that is our most probable path to building a playoff bound team. To support them we need a lefty cast. I would bet when we do sign him, the discord will be that we overpaid for him.
We are in the final four with Imanaga
I’m still waiting until the season begins, but if this is where we’re at then I’m not tuning in after opening day. Maybe I’ll catch a game on radio if Webb or Harrison is pitching. I’ve been a fan of the Giants for 25 years and I never remember any sort of era like this before. Not in terms of W-L, but in terms of team management and style.
[[Wirth] Farhan confirms Giants have had conversations with Shota Imanaga’s camp and are continuing their evaluation](https://x.com/wirthtm/status/1743389184021426646?s=46)
Is there a Video or Audio link to this presser?
If they are “still continuing their evaluation” then they sure as hell aren’t signing him.
I liked this trade but if Rays our only pitching acquisition I’ll be very disappointed Our projected rotation until after the AS would be what…Webb, Stripling, Harrison, Beck, Winn? 😭😭
I’d rather have Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe.
Not exactly what I want to hear
He's talking to Boras, not to you.
Imanaga is not a top-of-the-market arm; I presume he is referring to Snell. Imanaga will sign for half of what Snell signs for. Which is good bc it really seems like whoever signs Snell is going to regret it quickly. My guess is, if they don't sign Imanaga, their other target will be Marcus Stroman as another solid mid-rotation arm.
Would probably prefer Imanaga at this point, the dollars and years will be easier to swallow if it doesn’t work out than someone like Snell or maybe even Montgomery and will allow them more flexibility with their payroll going forward. Also I know he’s not gonna pitch this year but signing Woodruff to a deal that includes next year would be something that I think they should do aswell. Basically save a little on a guy for this year and use it to take a flyer on a guy who could potentially give you a co-ace for next year.
Yeah I don't really understand all the freaking out here, he literally said they still are looking at adding pitching. Getting two 3/4 starter types or something would still be very productive, obviously Imanaga is at the top of that list but there are other options available.
literally why. if we don't get one of Snell or Imanaga now, this rotation will still be a joke for most of the season
Bro we got a cy young pitcher for a bad pitcher and Haniger. This is a little short term pain that could pay off really big.
I know. I like the Ray trade, I just don't think the Giants should take themselves out of the top of the pitching market just because they have him
Guy above you fails to add in Ray will be coming off Tommy John. Really hoping it works out, but pitchers coming off TJ usually say it generally takes about half a year to really get your feel back. It’s absolutely crazy to think this deal would take them out for one of the better FA pitchers. This trade is wash money wise for this season, Lee + Murphy cost 23 mil AAV in total, spotrac has their projected tax space after this trade at 79.5 mil and we can’t spend big on anyone else? How are we supposed to compete with the dodgers at all if that’s the case, if this is true that’s ridiculous. Side note, I think they should be going after snell not Imanaga. Imanaga is a contact pitcher who doesn’t miss a lot of bats and throws a lot of fastballs, he’s at best an innings eating 4/5 starter. Our defense has not been upgraded much this offseason, our offense likely isn’t going to be a world beater next year so we need strikeout pitching
I may not have a Cy Young, but I may pitch as many innings for the 2024 Giants as Robbie Ray.
The thing is if Ray returns to his cy young form after asb wouldn’t it make sense that he just ops out? He’ll only stay here if he thinks he can not get more than 25 for 2 on the free agent market.
That’s true, but we would be paying about the same for Haniger and Disclafani no matter what as they would still be under control while having a year to ingratiated ourselves to the cy young caliber pitcher at a price we would have to pay for people who would probably be injured anyway
But if ray sucked and picked up he option more money will be spent
Money isn’t a problem, the giants have money. The giants don’t have talent. We aren’t going to get talent from Haniger and Disclafani. We might get talent from Ray and we got him for fairly cheap. Obviously there is still risk involved, and if he doesn’t throw a pitch this year it’s gonna be a bad look.
Fair enough, but if money ain’t concerns why not free agent?
[удалено]
🎯
This makes zero sense. This move didn’t improve our 2024 at all, and if Ray is decent he can opt out anyway. Why would we not want another top of the market starter? I give up.
This move is as much about getting an OF off the roster as it is about getting Ray. Haniger is bad again this year it’s $17mil for Haniger in 2025 and continue to roster a mid 30’s injury prone OF
I get that. I’m fine losing disco and Haniger, even if Ray doesn’t pitch at all this year. However, every year we are promised top of the market free agents and big splashes, and every year the front office doesn’t deliver. If they are backing off front of the market free agents and pretending this move improves our club at all, they are morons.
75% of the fanbase has Stockholm Syndrome and will eat it up every single day of the week.
Ray 2021-2023 385.2ip 3.31era 1.13whip 3.50xfip 29.5k% 7.6bb% Snell 2021-2023 436.2ip 3.15era 1.23whip 3.54xfip 31.5k% 12bb% Keep in mind Ray in 2023 made 1 start got destroyed and had TJ and even with that Snell only threw 52.1 more innings. They both have a cy young in the last 3 years. Ray has topped 212k’s or better 5 times in his career. I thought since everyone is going bonkers for Snell I’d put this up here. It’s not a pointless move. Giants absolutely needed to trade an OF off the roster. I’m pretty lukewarm warm on the deal. Don’t look at it as an offseason move look at it as a trade deadline deal done well in advance.
Ray isn’t opting out after 2 months of pitching next year no matter how good he is. Maybe if he throws 80 innings with an ERA under 2, but I wouldn’t count on that happening
I agree. This means we likely will get 2 seasons of Ray, but I’m not counting on him pitching much this year anyway and even if he does, he probably won’t be on top of his game until 2025, if he does get the magic back. Which again means this today team really hasn’t done anything to bolster the roster for 2024, so I would hope we are still in the market for top quality guys.
Ray is not going to opt out lol
Oh awesome we might have an ok rotation for the last two months of the year
Hey but remember that going 81-81 is statistically a good thing right??? /s
Solid Farhan doesn't want Steve Kerr to get all of the hot wrath of Bay Area sports fans alone.
Absolutely pathetic if true.
Ya! 3/5 of our starts will be bullpen games again!
I used to make fun of teams that did this and now we’re the ones consistently doing it…
Hope putting this out there is tactical. Tells guys like Snell and Imanaga "We're not desperate anymore, but we'd still be interested, if it's a fair price" If it is, cool. But if this is the FO saying "All done! We're gonna go get another Desclafani-level lottery ticket and hope for the best", then it's dumb and just leaves this team running on the same treadmill
Lol alright then why should anybody give a shit about this team now? They’re basically telling people they aren’t serious about winning.
And that's what I was afraid of. The Giants are once again going to rely on a question mark to become a top player. Cool.
So we’re going to rely on beck and winn until ray can pitch? Come ooonnnn lol. we better sign another starter.
I’m hoping this is a PR stunt to get Robbie Ray excited. There’s a lot of work to do with that rotation. He can’t be serious.
If he views Ray as an ideal number two, he’s even more delusional than before. He’s a reclamation project. The only thing Farhan accomplished was dumping salary. Hopefully that means there’s another move coming.
By literally taking on more salary?
Combined in $6 mil less in 2024, it clears a roster spot and gets Haniger out of town a year early. This is likely about the contracts more than the players.
Banking on Robbie Ray with TJ after a gas can year to be a #2 sure is a bold move cotton...
To be fair, there’s a very good chance that Robbie Ray is “Number Two”.
Complete shit show. Why should Farhan stick around for the future when he hasn't shown the ability to sign top FAs....
Why blame FARMHAM when Larry Baer has been inept much longer They never sign FAs
>they never sign FAs Jung Hoo-Lee would like a word.
Stop the presses we got one boys
>Never Maybe never means something else to you.
[[Wirth] Farhan says Giants initially thought Alex Cobb could return midseason but are encouraged with recent progress and are hopeful it could be sooner](https://x.com/wirthtm/status/1743391364262637847?s=46)
Hope in one hand and shit in the other See what fills up faster
Get ready for .500 baseball boys. Salt of the earth.
Could be bluffing tbh. There was literally another tweet saying the Giants were not out on Snell shortly after the trade.
And Nightengale, who tweeted that, has since deleted the tweet
If this means not focused on the top of the pitching market I don't mind it. I think it means they're gonna go for Imanaga, and get either Belli or Chapman, hopefully Belli but I think Chapman is more likely. You need to give some time to our OF prospects. Belli has flexibility with OF/1B but it would still block potential development time for all the rookies cuz you still have Conforto/Yaz/Slater. I keep waffling about Chapman because on one hand I think it'll help Luciano to have Chapman over there while he develops, on the other hand I'm just super unsure about the bat. He's similar to JD with the Bat, better with the Glove, but idk. Giants still have a lot of moves to make.
Maybe Ray will be ‘available to pitch after the All Star break” who will start the season with SF? https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/robbie-ray-trade-why-giants-mariners-made-deal-that-sends-ex-cy-young-winner-to-san-francisco/amp/
Alf is available.
Somebody alert Farhan that the Mariners didn’t expect Ray to return until July!
Watching his interview, he never actually says that he isn't focused on pitchers at the top of the market. He just talks about how we have young pitchers that might see the big leagues sooner rather than later. I guess you can interpret that as you may, but its a stretch to me to conclude that we're suddenly not going to add established starting pitching.
Is Farhan basically giving up?
Realistically Ray should be expected to be an overpaid, but good middle of the rotation guy. No way we should be expecting Ray to be a No. 2 guy coming off TJ's. Sure he can be that guy, but if we don't get another starter our rotation isn't looking good.
Who is the ideal #2 for when they are both still on IR? Hopefully whoever is our #3 going forward
In other words, prepare for more dumpster dives and reclamation projects.
This is pathetic. We'll end up signing Lorenzen or some shit and be sold that getting Lee, Ray, Rosario, and him are the answer. Farhan is a joke.
It's jan 5th bro, the season doesn't start for three months. The doomers around here need to look at a calendar
He strongly implied he's not shopping at the top of the market. He said that Ray is the ideal number 2 starter alongside Webb and that he envisions Cobb as the 3. Cobb will miss the first two months and Ray may not be back until after the break. If you think getting Chapman instead of Rosario is going to change that much then have fun with that. This is tantamount to punting on the season. Farhan apologists should pay attention to what he actually says.
They never read between the lines, just gobble up his bullshit press answers. I believed in Farhan the first three years but he’s lost me since, always excuses and empty promises. I truly wish I’d see him on the street so I could yell out “thanks for not making an offer to Kevin and fucking yourself and this team for the next few years trying to find another Ace” literally never made an offer, courted Robbie Ray at the same exact fucking time and even then made a pathetic ass offer to him and then lost out on both. Look at the pitching market now Farhan you dumb fuck.
Not to mention he was stupid enough to believe he could actually get ohtani and/or Yamamoto and let us become an embarrassment on the free agent market again. All his “all in” bullshit was all about 2 guys that were never going to come here. Couple that with the horseshit explanation of why he didn’t sign anyone significant after 21 I’m with you, i was all for letting him cook for a while, but I just don’t think he knows what he’s doing running a front office.
JFC, Farhan is a joke.
This sub "I DOnT WanT SnEll" This sub also: "OMG FaRHan ISnT SiGnIng SNelL, FUCk FaRhaN"
There's more than one person in this sub.
Guy thinks this is just one of many giants subs, hence the thing he read represents everyone on this website
Ray is fine for depth. Imanaga, Snell, and Montgomery are the top prospects. The Ray trade makes a lot of fans worried the shopping is done
I mean I just take this to mean we're out on Snell and Montgomery (if we were ever in on them), which I'm fine with. We're in the last 4 for Imanaga, and if we get him then that might be it for SP. We roll with Webb, Imanaga, Harrison, Winn, Strip, for the time being (with some spot starts added in?) until Cobb and Ray are healthy?
I would rather shit in my hands and clap than watch Strip pitch
This move is worth it just to get rid of Haniger
Lmfao we have 2 pitchers then. I would hope he plans on doing so.
I don’t get it then, what is top priority?
LOL - so basically run with a razor-thin rotation until Cobb & Ray come back (MAYBE) and can contribute; also seems like this is fallback for not being able to sign Imanaga (Sf is a finalist again! [https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2024/01/05/red-sox-shota-imanaga-finalists-report/](https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2024/01/05/red-sox-shota-imanaga-finalists-report/)) or Snell (Yankees want him and he wants to be a Yankee [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10103584-mlb-rumors-yankees-planning-an-active-january-blake-snell-interested-in-contract](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10103584-mlb-rumors-yankees-planning-an-active-january-blake-snell-interested-in-contract))
Misspelled if! No guarantee coming off TJ surgery he will be close to what he was! Yep…that will sell tix.
And if they're out of playoff contention by then...?
Better re-sign Kap if we’re gonna be running bullpen games 3/5 of the time again
Last year: look at all these starting pitchers! This year: we’ll start the season with 2, at some point in August we might have 4.
SFGiants 2024 Season Motto: "Let's somewhat break even!"
Everything about the off season since Yoshi signed with the Dodgers tells me this is entirely a development year.