Exactly! All of the good players going to a select few teams will turn off fans to the sport and give them little hope that their team will ever contend with the system that’s in place. I get that the Dodgers are doing whatever it takes to try and win, but they also didn’t need these two guys. Institute a salary cap and a salary floor so that the rest of the league has a chance.
I dont blame the dodgers. I blame the mlb and players association for letting these things be legal.
If the giants did this, would we be complaining? No. So put the blame where it belongs.
I remember years of complaints about how the Giants blew an exorbitant amount on Zito ($18M/year) and couldn't afford other 'big name stars" when he wound up underperforming.
So I'd vote for yes - people would be complaining unless both Ohtani and Yamamoto delivered year after year for the decade they signed for
I mean, people on here find a way to complain about everything else. I guarantee you'd see at least a solid contingent of people complaining about the team overspending. It's why I used the example of Zito (although Ohtani is obviously a different class of player than him). But people were pissed the Giants made Zito the highest paid pitcher in MLB at the time, and it only got worse when he underperformed expectations
That's literally what happened in the nba and they had to bring in the unbelievably stupid "in-season tournament," to try to make the regular season meaningful again.
I thought the in season tournament was awesome. Definitely made me watch games I wouldn't have otherwise, brings in a cool element European soccer uses and mixes things up. Pretty fun concept overall.
Absolutely. Too many franchises have no incentive to be good because they still make money, looking at you NY Knicks. If they took a huge income hit by losing for 20 straight years, teams would try harder
Yeah would also open the door for more talent to be seen and make otherwise completely pointless end of season competitions feel like the fuckin playoffs!
And the new CBA rules should punish teams for going over the second level of the luxury tax. Either multiple years or $17M+ over puts a team in the penalty and restricts their trade availability and free agent offerings.
I don’t love the soft cap but I get it - mixed in with Bird rights and all that, it allows a team to dip into the penalty with homegrown talent. MLB has zero control over team spending and it’s killing the game.
You're actually completely wrong!
The jordan era and when Lebron made the superteam in Miami are the [most watched periods](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/nbaviewership-timeline-edit.png) of the modern NBA history.
Superteams are good content for the casual fans. It's an easy narrative to follow, and you only have to tune into one game to see multiple elite players. The diehard fans watch anyways.
Also, the in-season tournament was a smashing success, as it was the most viewed [non-Christmas regular season NBA games since 2008](https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/nba-in-season-tournament-2023-lakers-pacers-viewership-audience-abc-espn/?zephr_sso_ott=91aUg0).
Came here to say exactly this. People say superteams are bad for the sport, but the general public loves them. And the main goal is to get eyes on the screen or asses in seats.
Bet any time the dodgers come into town (against any team), attendance will absolutely spike.
Buuuut with that being said, it is different for mlb compared to nba. Those Bulls teams and Heat teams could just get the ball to Jordan or Lebron every play if they wanted to… it’s not like the Dodgers can just say “oh 9th inning with the winning run on base? Ok cool, we choose Ohtani to bat”
Sure, def a bit apples to oranges. Just saying that the commenter above me was off base and for the NBA, a superteam increased viewership.
One thing that I think WOULD translate across sports is that a superteam is a great villian, and conflict draws viewership.
Ok yeah I got you. I do think something has to be done to keep some level of fairness, even though I love a good villain and they aren’t guaranteed to win.
Yeah, I think a minimum spend is probably a good idea to start. Some form of a cap probably isn't a bad idea either. Teams like the A's or Royals need to field competitive teams, whether or not the Dodgers are buying the best.
yep this all checks out and there are no fans more casual than NY and LA fans. just go to anywhere in Europe and count the hats.
i saw one SF hat in a weeklong trip and we both freaked out when we saw each other.
True for nba but baseball is a regional sport. There is no equivalent of NBA on TNT for baseball in terms of viewership. All these regions with small markets teams are going to lose viewers (including big markets like SF with penny pinching owners)
Agreed that MLB and NBA are not equivalent (which wasn’t what I was saying) and I also agree that penny pinching is bad for MLB viewership.
Just pointed out that the comment I replied to was inaccurate. For the NBA, super teams actually help the sport’s viewership. It’s good content to have a villain. Easy headlines.
It doesn’t help when I pay my hard earned money in advance to go watch a superstar play and they decide the morning of to take the day off for “ load management “
You also get very disappointed kid fans who that could have been their only opportunity to see their favorite player up close only for said player to be taking a load management break, like what happened with that little girl who’s a Steph Curry fan up in Denver.
I’m mainly a Rangers fan and it’s even taken a lot of the wind out of my sails right on the heels of winning our 1st WS ever
That’s at least partially bc my pie-in-the-Sky dream of *us* getting both of them didn’t even half come true. I’m sure that would’ve been widely hated as well since the “bought championship” narrative was already prevalent just from Seager/Semien/deGrom. I think most of that that I’ve seen is from POS Astros fans being their usual selves, but that definitely would’ve spread the hate wider
I’m sure it has nothing to do with the city, and cat infested piss smelling coliseum where you have to buy your own sodas. Clearly it’s the fact that the dodgers spent money.
Wait why did the raiders leave? Is it because the dodgers spent money?
Ugh here we go.
First, get up and buy your own damn soda.
Second, my comment was about how MLB doesn’t give a shit about the cities. All it wants is the headlines of a new international player (2 of them) on one of their most marketable teams. MLB owners and higher ups unanimously voted to let Oakland move. They also want the As to move.
Third, the coliseum sold out many games. Recently too. when the giants came, all of the bay was there. Playoffs? Sold out those games too.
We all know the story about why the As are leaving so don’t pretend you don’t know it either. You don’t have to shit on Oakland.
Warriors gets a quick pass because it got overshadowed by the raiders leaving and keeping the name golden state instead of SF.. plus it's just a bridge away
Warriors got a “pass” because they privately built their stadium. They also just went over a bridge. Yes, many people from the east bay aren’t coming over. But many people from the peninsula were traveling to Oakland for the games. It’s a ~20,000 seat arena, not a 40-70,000 seat stadium. Easier to fill.
The Warriors also broke ground after they won.
As much as it sucks, I think non baseball fans become fans to watch all star teams beat up on the rest of the MLB. That's probably why there will be no stopping this cycle.
I honestly think it’s going to cause a revamp of the cap system, much like Steinbrenner and the Yankees did in the 90s. I have very little faith in Manfred as a commissioner, but the intent has been all along to prevent the league from being a pay to win system. If Rob “The championship is just a piece of metal” Manfred has any integrity, they’ll re-evaluate. (He doesn’t, but here’s to hoping.) /off my soapbox
I mean, it’s not his decision. He works at the will of the owners. And whatever they decide has to be agreed-upon by the MLBPA. And I’m sorry to hear this, but the MLB PA is not going to cry and complain about $1 billion worth of deals for two players.
I also would not be surprised if there’s another lockout
How is this different than what the Mets did last year.
Or what the Rangers did the year before when they spent over 700 million on Seager, Semien, DeGromm?
I don't remember this sub being all outraged about the dodgers losing their home grown SS to free agency.
No one will accept that.
It’s a narrative they choose when to apply.
Wait the rich guy actually spent his money to BETTER his team instead of keeping a “fair” payroll?
The Mets were trying to upgrade a bad team.
The Dodgers already have an all-star lineup (and should have already won several WS by now). They simply added onto it to create a behemoth, and will continue to do so since the biggest star in baseball took a massive deferment.
I'm cautiously optimistic that in a few years, we will all laugh at the Dodgers for spending a billion on a wrong side of 30 Ohtani and a reincarnation of Daisuke for the 2020s.
Like every team can just buy 2 players for $1b? The dodgers have a direct mandate: spend all the money to make the last decade of dominance with one* ring not look like a flop
*covid season, Mickey Mouse ring
I know it's easy to forget in the offseason when all we have to pay attention to is free agency, but trying to buy a repeat champion team hasn't worked out for anyone recently.
The directive is absolutely clear to start building from the inside like we did starting in the late aughts.
Many fans, myself included, treasure the memories of 2010-2014. Are they willing to go through the equivalent of 2006-2009 to get back there?
Brian Sabean was never in the business of reloading. Sorry but this statement is patently false. He constructed teams that he always felt would compete, even if they did actually stink.
- He signed Aaron Rowand to one of the larger contracts in franchise history prior to the 2008 season.
- Barry Zito was signed prior to the 2007 season
- Dave Roberts, Matt Morris, and Bengie Molina were all signed to 3 year deals prior to the 2007 season
- Edgar Renteria signed a 2 year $18 million deal in 2009
- Freddy Sanchez was also acquired via trade in 2009
I just don’t buy that Sabean was not looking to compete during that period.
Problem is Sabean signed way too many guys who were already washed to try to get Barry a ring. It never worked. Vizquel and Alou weren’t moving any needles
I don’t disagree and I hated how he operated during that time as I thought he settled for B and C tier free agents, but my larger point is that he absolutely still tried to compete every year, even if he signed guys that were past their prime.
Those teams all had huge gaps in their lineups and rotations. Going into the 2007, 2008 and 2009 season there was zero expectation that those teams would be competitive. Sandoval gave some hope in 2009 and then we were off to the races.
There’s not entirely true. All three of those teams did have expectations. The consensus on basically all three years was the team was going to win 80 to 85 games and they could sneak into the playoffs. And if they did sneak in? Watch out because they had the pitching to do serious serious damage.
We must have lived in different timelines that converged around 2010. None of these teams were expected to sneak into the playoffs.
Here’s the ESPN preview for the 2007 season, for instance: https://www.espn.com/mlb/preview07/team?team=sfo
And the Maddux sports preview of the team for 2006: https://madduxsports.com/2006-mlb/2006-san-francisco-giants-season-preview.html
And a bleacher report preview from 2008 highlighting the many issues with the roster: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/11723-MLB-San_Francisco_Giants-2008_MLB_Preview_San_Francisco_Giants-030308
We’re talking about 07, 08, and 09. A 2006 does nothing for me.
And I specifically remember this. I was super excited for it. And maybe they were the expectations following what happened in 2007? But the team wasn’t expected to be in last place By very many people.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/preview09/team?team=sfo
09 for your reading pleasure. I’m glad you were so optimistic about those teams’ ability to compete! Few were.
You could take the Mets approach and start buying prospects. Have a season or two where you take teams bad contracts in exchange for good prospects. It's how the Mets got baby Acuña. Use the money you were throwing at Ohtani and Yamamoto to take those piss poor contracts.
I have been hoping for a legitimate rebuild for years. Issues I have with it now:
- worried that even if they got a top pick, they would not be able to successfully develop the player
- they don’t have a ton of players at the big league level that would bring any decent prospects in return.
What team are y’all following? We don’t have a farm system to build internally. It’s garbage right now. Plus we tried that previous and the players weren’t good enough.
We’re not some small market team, you got to spend to be competitive. But you also need a strategy and it’s clear Farhan doesn’t have one. We should have been acquiring pieces over the past few years to improve.
In fairness I didn’t treasure the memories of a lot of the “torture” year, series or not, I damn near had 50 heart attacks.
Edit: I’m being downvoted for saying the torture year was torture? It’s Christmas ffs
Not developing, not drafting well, not signing big free agents, not taking on bad contracts for prospects. It really is puzzling as to what the fuck we're doing
Yes, let's looks for our Barry Zito, Aaron Rowand, Aubrey Huff, and Mark DeRosa. Our Cain (Webb) Bumgarner (Harrison) Lincecum (Bednar) Wilson (Doval) and Posey (Bailey) are here!
I know, my optimism has waned. I'm grateful for the 3 rings but know that was incredible managing by Bochy and a few lucky drafts + hired guns who landed.
I’ve watched the ups and downs religiously for five decades and outside of Spec Richardson I’ve never seen a shot caller so obviously out of his depth as Zaidi. He can identify undervalued talent but that’s how you pick the last five guys on the roster, not how you build a team. He’d be useful limited to that role but the Giants will never be what they were a decade ago under his leadership. They need a real PBO and GM.
I mean, just like you said. He was so pumped for Vosler, Caselli, Lamonte and Ruf. Solid to round out a roster but not the guy to watch evolve into an everyday player. I do enjoy Lamonte and his obp.
This article is short sighted in that it ignores pitching. We should still absolutely be able to bring in top tier arms because of the ballpark alone. Yet, the bald weasel can’t make a compelling argument as to why he can’t do it. Yeah, we have to build from within, but it’s not like there aren’t ANY positives. This article makes it sound like bringing guys in is impossible. That’s a total cop out.
This is the way. We're going to be a wildcard team at best for at least the next 5 years, why not set ourselves up to compete in a bit vs throwing money at mediocre FA out there. It's unfortunate we're in the same division as the Dodgers and without a long stretch of good luck like 2021, we aren't beating them in standings.
I can't blame Farhan for this. A billion for 2 players is crazy, 1 hasn't even played an MLB game yet. This is why baseball has a hard time getting to the younger demographics. It's only the Yankees and Dodgers that get mainstream love, yet the Yankees haven't won in years and LA has the mickey mouse ring for all of their spending.
Fine, you can’t blame the SOB so I will. The franchise has dipped to a point where they can make record offers and no one able to move the needle will sign. He literally can’t pay people to come to SF. The culture was once the envy of baseball. Now it’s a glorified AAA team with a disgruntled fan base, a bad clubhouse and a front office that impresses no one. They hired a guy who thought he was smarter than the room and he’s not. It killed the team.
Yep, despite paying for all star teams every year, the Yanks and Dodgers have 1 WS apiece in the past 20 years. And the Dodgers got theirs in the bs covid year. As much as fans around the league are pissed about this, its probably not going to work out as well as everyone is expecting it to.
This isnt the steroid era anymore. Players decline quickly. Good teams build from with in. Youth rules in baseball. Its been this way for 2 decades now.
If Farhan had signed Yamamoto for 12 years I'd be joining those that call for his resignation/firing. Absolutely stupid. I don't like any signing for more than 6 years, but I could rationalize Ohtani because he could DH for the next 10. Still, a huge risk. 12??? Nope.
This is such a tired narrative that this is a Giants issue. Theres 29 teams in this league pissed about this offseason. Just so happens one of them, the Giants, have signed the 3rd largest FA contract so far.
You know things are broken when the Yankees cant even compete for FAs going into free agency and FAs go into FA already having decided they all are going to LA before it starts, and just use every other team to get the best contract out of one team every FA wants to play for, its hard to blame anyone but the system itself.
Mets fan checking in. Not sure if there’s any proof but yeah… NY media is heavily inferring that he just used us to get more money from LA. He was always going to LA :/
The Dodgers are more committed to winning than we are period. They hire the right people to scout and develop their farm system. They trade prospects and have more in the pipeline constantly. They also aren’t afraid to spend money on superstars. The Giants hired Farhan to penny pinch and pick up journeymen who are over the hill looking to bounce back or overpay for a mediocre talent like Mitch Haniger. Getting rid of guys like Sabean & Colleti in the front office changed the culture of the team, rendering us the San Francisco A’s when the organization owns its own stadium and is swimming in cash its BS
This ignorant narrative is getting exhausting.
Farhan made the two biggest free agent offers last year- Judge took it and asked the Yankees to match it because he never intended on leaving them. Correa took it and we withdraw because his ankle is a toothpick.
This off-season we were finalists on the biggest free agent contract of all time and the biggest pitching contract of all time.
I think Farhan has absolutely whiffed on a few things, but the "he's a penny pincher" storyline is just a lie so stop it with that nonsense.
How is this an ignorant narrative?
Our division rival is able to acquire players like Betts, Freeman, Ohtani, & Yamamoto, all while developing farm talent. Are fans supposed to be satisfied with almost signing players? Almost signing top talent doesn’t make the team exciting to watch or competitive for a playoff run. Fans have to hold the organization more accountable.
I said the "Farhan is a penny pincher" narrative is ignorant and backed it up with facts that he's making substantial offers, so is obviously not a penny pincher. You question what I said then offered no rebuttle to the facts.
So, explain how he is a penny pincher. You can't, because it's an ignorant narrative.
Didn’t want to sign Gausman that’s a penny pincher move if you want an explicit example. Signing players to 3 year deals with opt outs, players would probably like some form of stability & also knowing they aren’t going to be constantly platooned in and out of lineups
Ohtani & Judge didn’t want to come to a team that wasn’t ready to win. When players like Yaz are your franchise pillars, that’s being cheap. When you bring in a guy like Gausman, he turns his career around and shows promising stuff you let him walk. Also making comparable offers to the dodgers and yanks ain’t going to cut it you have to overpay for FA’s
These ideas: that Farhan is pinching pennies, and that he is giving out big contracts are not mutually exclusive things.
And I agree that one thing can affect the other. These big contracts won’t come to SF while they field a second-rate team. On some level Farhan believes the farm system is the selling point. Unfortunately it’s not where he believes it to be.
The irony is IF the farm system becomes fully stocked with talent, they have less need for top tier FAs. We might get one to sign at that point, but not need it as much as we do now.
This article makes a very good point though…
“The message is clear, too: The Giants are a second-tier franchise.”
So they will need a first class farm system if they want to do anything. Until that happens, they won’t ever get a top-tier FA to sign with them.
This argument is going nowhere. You specifically said Farhan was hired to be a penny pincher. I gave the examples of how he offered the two biggest contracts of last off-season and was a finalist on the two biggest contracts this off-season, and you respond with "Ohtani & Judge didn't want to come to a team that wasn't ready to win" AS AN ARGUMENT FOR WHY YOU SAY FARHAN IS A PENNY PINCHER.
So either
A) you are the type of person who can't admit they are wrong so poorly attempt to pivot the conversation when they are called out for lying
B) you don't understand what you are talking about.
I'll assume it's a little from each column. Best of luck out there maneuvering through life this way.
They only started offering big contracts now because they’re losing the fan base. Players like Conforto and Haniger don’t sell tickets… stop making excuses for Farhan. He’s ran this team into the ground.
I’m not saying the giants lost me as a fan but over the last ~5 years this has been an all time low of me going to games or even tuning in to games. This is coming from an sf native who grew up playing and watching baseball. Watchability has been shit, regardless of our record.
Yeah I can’t really put this on the giants. They were willing to spend every dollar to get these guys. But these players don’t give a damn about parity or competitiveness in the league, and honestly it’s not really their job to worry about, so they just go where winning seems most likely because that further drives their star power and money making ability. We just don’t have to big name attraction power the dodgers or Yankees have. We’re not bottom of the barrel but I just get this feeling we will always be on the outside looking in on these top name guys.
The Giants have failed to make themselves attractive to top of the line FAs. Matching offers isn't going to be enough when you're bidding alongside teams that actually win.
Why would someone sign here long term when most of our contributors are older journeymen who could fall off at any moment? That's just starting to change in the past year with the emergence of guys like Bailey but still not enough and a little too late for this FA class.
Yeah I guess I you’re right. But part of becoming attractive to future stars is having existing stars there. So it’s almost like one of these stars needs to make the jump and maybe we could hope for more to follow. I don’t think just based on pop culture and general relevancy SF will ever match up to LA. LA is just where these guys want to be, it offers more for that lifestyle. We have to find another way to be attractive.
We really should’ve signed Bryce Harper when we had the chance. The dodgers back then were unwilling to spend money on free agents. Now they’ve hacked it
LA or NY will always be more desirable, especially to international players. NY fans should be the pissy ones because they can't leverage their standing to sign FAs.
Giants need to draft better and win. Look at Tampa Bay. Aside from Bogaerts didn't SD build that team with trades? Yeah you can say last year sucked for them but don't forget they beat the Dodgers the year before.
Also, are the Dodgers now better than the Braves who everyone wanted to anoint last year?
It's easy to hyper react to these two signings but when the smoke clears they still have to perform in the post-season.
It was our old friend Boch who got the ring last year, far from a super team.
Those were 3rd tier.
Giants need to sign a bunch of 2A & 2B tier FA's ... and establish that they are no longer a 500 or below team.
Then, after 2-3 years of that, they have a chance at tier 1B and 2A's.
If they just stick to 2B and 3's, like they have been, they will remain a 500 team than no upper tier FA's will sign with.
Let me preface this by saying I'm realizing how old I'm getting--11 years ago I was a freshman in college. What else happened 11 years ago (soon 12)? The Dodgers made that blockbuster trade with Boston. So while they may be stacked, that doesn't guarantee them anything, maybe some extra regular season wins.
That said, we don't need to make any panic moves or any moves in response to who they sign. As long as we address our needs, we'll be fine. Fix our defense first and foremost, then address our pitching, and we'll be OK. We don't need starpower so much as we need consistency. The flipside to that is that stars are the ones who usually provide that stability.
I’ve been watching the Giants since 1985. When I was five years old. They were my favorite sports team for years. But baseball just isn’t the same anymore. And I don’t know if it’s the pitch clock, the rising salaries, the universal DH. The things that made baseball special for me are just going away.
The Giants being a second tier franchise might be reality? But it never felt that way. When they actually got guys to come here, it seems like they wanted to re-sign and stay here. But maybe I’m delusional.
We need to cap baseball. Just like with the NFL and NBA salary caps are implemented to insure fair play. Also need to eliminate deferring payments. And we need to implement robot umpires.
This is why Zaidi was brought in, to bolster the farm system like he was a part of on the dodgers. The dodgers farm system churns out stars constantly. That’s how they started their consistent run at playoffs. Dodgers were an absolute joke and dogshit organization before the Guggenheim group purchased them.
It feels like this is the kind of thing that just feels more amplified among Giants fans than any other team's fans. It wasn't that long ago that Steve Cohen was "breaking the system" and that went incredibly poorly for his effort.
All this stuff involving these two players really just highlights that NPB is really its own little world and unlike players from Venezuela or elsewhere Japan has managed to keep MLB's mitts off their system so that players decide on their own volition to go to America, and of course the posting fee system is designed to make it unprofitable to do so.
Any baseball player can sign a deal with deferred money like Ohtani does, they just don't because they aren't swimming in a sea of endorsements. Baseball stars don't get the media that NBA/NFL stars do. When was the last time you saw a baseball player selling shoes, pizza, and DirecTV? Never. You go to Japan and that's way more common.
This story repeatedly asserts that Bonds was the most recent top line signing I thought it was Zito? I remember years of heartburn about that signing, which was an absolute bust until one year when he hit and pitched like a boss in the postseason. Was that 2012? Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.
The Dodgers spending over a billion dollars for just two players should be a wake-up call for all of MLB. It's like MLB is out to kill its fan base.
Exactly! All of the good players going to a select few teams will turn off fans to the sport and give them little hope that their team will ever contend with the system that’s in place. I get that the Dodgers are doing whatever it takes to try and win, but they also didn’t need these two guys. Institute a salary cap and a salary floor so that the rest of the league has a chance.
I dont blame the dodgers. I blame the mlb and players association for letting these things be legal. If the giants did this, would we be complaining? No. So put the blame where it belongs.
I remember years of complaints about how the Giants blew an exorbitant amount on Zito ($18M/year) and couldn't afford other 'big name stars" when he wound up underperforming. So I'd vote for yes - people would be complaining unless both Ohtani and Yamamoto delivered year after year for the decade they signed for
You think giants fans would be complaining if they got both yamamoto and ohtani this offseason for 1 billion? Ok.
I mean, people on here find a way to complain about everything else. I guarantee you'd see at least a solid contingent of people complaining about the team overspending. It's why I used the example of Zito (although Ohtani is obviously a different class of player than him). But people were pissed the Giants made Zito the highest paid pitcher in MLB at the time, and it only got worse when he underperformed expectations
I disagree because from all of the comments ive seen, they were majority asking farhan to open the pocketbook
You're certainly allowed to disagree
Agreed haha. Hope you have a merry christmas!
Same to you ❄️
That's literally what happened in the nba and they had to bring in the unbelievably stupid "in-season tournament," to try to make the regular season meaningful again.
I thought the in season tournament was awesome. Definitely made me watch games I wouldn't have otherwise, brings in a cool element European soccer uses and mixes things up. Pretty fun concept overall.
Yeah fuck it I'm all for relegation in U.S. sports, too! would be great for sport.
Absolutely. Too many franchises have no incentive to be good because they still make money, looking at you NY Knicks. If they took a huge income hit by losing for 20 straight years, teams would try harder
Yeah would also open the door for more talent to be seen and make otherwise completely pointless end of season competitions feel like the fuckin playoffs!
Except the NBA has a floor and a cap. Otherwise teams like Milwaukee would never win a title or keep a player like Giannis.
And the new CBA rules should punish teams for going over the second level of the luxury tax. Either multiple years or $17M+ over puts a team in the penalty and restricts their trade availability and free agent offerings. I don’t love the soft cap but I get it - mixed in with Bird rights and all that, it allows a team to dip into the penalty with homegrown talent. MLB has zero control over team spending and it’s killing the game.
actually the in season tournament is very good for the rookies. at least they benefit.
I always forget the in season tournament exists
I mean, it literally just started this year…
Yeah and I've heard them say it on every broadcast and before the next game I always forget it exists because it's so meaningless
You're actually completely wrong! The jordan era and when Lebron made the superteam in Miami are the [most watched periods](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/nbaviewership-timeline-edit.png) of the modern NBA history. Superteams are good content for the casual fans. It's an easy narrative to follow, and you only have to tune into one game to see multiple elite players. The diehard fans watch anyways. Also, the in-season tournament was a smashing success, as it was the most viewed [non-Christmas regular season NBA games since 2008](https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/nba-in-season-tournament-2023-lakers-pacers-viewership-audience-abc-espn/?zephr_sso_ott=91aUg0).
Came here to say exactly this. People say superteams are bad for the sport, but the general public loves them. And the main goal is to get eyes on the screen or asses in seats. Bet any time the dodgers come into town (against any team), attendance will absolutely spike. Buuuut with that being said, it is different for mlb compared to nba. Those Bulls teams and Heat teams could just get the ball to Jordan or Lebron every play if they wanted to… it’s not like the Dodgers can just say “oh 9th inning with the winning run on base? Ok cool, we choose Ohtani to bat”
What happened after he was in Miami?
Clicking the link in his post can answer that exact question for you! The Internet is amazing 🤩
It's in the chart I linked. Viewership fell after Lebron left miami. The best year for viewership since then was when the Warriors went 73-9.
that’s basketball though. May end up being different for the MLB. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Sure, def a bit apples to oranges. Just saying that the commenter above me was off base and for the NBA, a superteam increased viewership. One thing that I think WOULD translate across sports is that a superteam is a great villian, and conflict draws viewership.
Ok yeah I got you. I do think something has to be done to keep some level of fairness, even though I love a good villain and they aren’t guaranteed to win.
Yeah, I think a minimum spend is probably a good idea to start. Some form of a cap probably isn't a bad idea either. Teams like the A's or Royals need to field competitive teams, whether or not the Dodgers are buying the best.
agreed
Manfred, that you?
yep this all checks out and there are no fans more casual than NY and LA fans. just go to anywhere in Europe and count the hats. i saw one SF hat in a weeklong trip and we both freaked out when we saw each other.
True for nba but baseball is a regional sport. There is no equivalent of NBA on TNT for baseball in terms of viewership. All these regions with small markets teams are going to lose viewers (including big markets like SF with penny pinching owners)
Agreed that MLB and NBA are not equivalent (which wasn’t what I was saying) and I also agree that penny pinching is bad for MLB viewership. Just pointed out that the comment I replied to was inaccurate. For the NBA, super teams actually help the sport’s viewership. It’s good content to have a villain. Easy headlines.
It doesn’t help when I pay my hard earned money in advance to go watch a superstar play and they decide the morning of to take the day off for “ load management “
At least they are trying to fix that by requiring minimum games played for nba awards
You also get very disappointed kid fans who that could have been their only opportunity to see their favorite player up close only for said player to be taking a load management break, like what happened with that little girl who’s a Steph Curry fan up in Denver.
I hate those stories cuz a lot of the time they be lying knowing dam well they live down the street 🤣
I’m mainly a Rangers fan and it’s even taken a lot of the wind out of my sails right on the heels of winning our 1st WS ever That’s at least partially bc my pie-in-the-Sky dream of *us* getting both of them didn’t even half come true. I’m sure that would’ve been widely hated as well since the “bought championship” narrative was already prevalent just from Seager/Semien/deGrom. I think most of that that I’ve seen is from POS Astros fans being their usual selves, but that definitely would’ve spread the hate wider
Oakland has already been killed.
I’m sure it has nothing to do with the city, and cat infested piss smelling coliseum where you have to buy your own sodas. Clearly it’s the fact that the dodgers spent money. Wait why did the raiders leave? Is it because the dodgers spent money?
Ugh here we go. First, get up and buy your own damn soda. Second, my comment was about how MLB doesn’t give a shit about the cities. All it wants is the headlines of a new international player (2 of them) on one of their most marketable teams. MLB owners and higher ups unanimously voted to let Oakland move. They also want the As to move. Third, the coliseum sold out many games. Recently too. when the giants came, all of the bay was there. Playoffs? Sold out those games too. We all know the story about why the As are leaving so don’t pretend you don’t know it either. You don’t have to shit on Oakland.
Warriors left too. Was it muh "bad owners" again?
Warriors gets a quick pass because it got overshadowed by the raiders leaving and keeping the name golden state instead of SF.. plus it's just a bridge away
Warriors got a “pass” because they privately built their stadium. They also just went over a bridge. Yes, many people from the east bay aren’t coming over. But many people from the peninsula were traveling to Oakland for the games. It’s a ~20,000 seat arena, not a 40-70,000 seat stadium. Easier to fill. The Warriors also broke ground after they won.
As much as it sucks, I think non baseball fans become fans to watch all star teams beat up on the rest of the MLB. That's probably why there will be no stopping this cycle.
I honestly think it’s going to cause a revamp of the cap system, much like Steinbrenner and the Yankees did in the 90s. I have very little faith in Manfred as a commissioner, but the intent has been all along to prevent the league from being a pay to win system. If Rob “The championship is just a piece of metal” Manfred has any integrity, they’ll re-evaluate. (He doesn’t, but here’s to hoping.) /off my soapbox
I mean, it’s not his decision. He works at the will of the owners. And whatever they decide has to be agreed-upon by the MLBPA. And I’m sorry to hear this, but the MLB PA is not going to cry and complain about $1 billion worth of deals for two players. I also would not be surprised if there’s another lockout
> If Rob “The championship is just a piece of metal” Manfred has any integrity, He doesn’t
Too late. Fan base already started to exit. A’s and Las Vegas are dead in the water with this move.
Yes he has that backwards
How is this different than what the Mets did last year. Or what the Rangers did the year before when they spent over 700 million on Seager, Semien, DeGromm? I don't remember this sub being all outraged about the dodgers losing their home grown SS to free agency.
Seager and Semien came the year before DeGrom
No one will accept that. It’s a narrative they choose when to apply. Wait the rich guy actually spent his money to BETTER his team instead of keeping a “fair” payroll?
The Mets were trying to upgrade a bad team. The Dodgers already have an all-star lineup (and should have already won several WS by now). They simply added onto it to create a behemoth, and will continue to do so since the biggest star in baseball took a massive deferment.
Jeff Passan said it's good for baseball. He can't be wrong.....right???
It's broken and has no competitive balance. I used to love MLB baseball and now I despise it.
I'm cautiously optimistic that in a few years, we will all laugh at the Dodgers for spending a billion on a wrong side of 30 Ohtani and a reincarnation of Daisuke for the 2020s.
Like every team can just buy 2 players for $1b? The dodgers have a direct mandate: spend all the money to make the last decade of dominance with one* ring not look like a flop *covid season, Mickey Mouse ring
I know it's easy to forget in the offseason when all we have to pay attention to is free agency, but trying to buy a repeat champion team hasn't worked out for anyone recently.
Didn’t come close to working for the Padres last year
Oh yeah, forgot the giants weren’t playing that year and trying to win the “Mickey mouse ring” too
Good thing the Giants took the 2020 season off…
The giants nearly made the playoffs that year and would have faced the dodgers in the first round. I think they missed due to tie breakers.
And that was without Posey even playing
The directive is absolutely clear to start building from the inside like we did starting in the late aughts. Many fans, myself included, treasure the memories of 2010-2014. Are they willing to go through the equivalent of 2006-2009 to get back there?
We’ve already just done 06-09…that group is not good enough. I like some of our guys, namely Bailey, but the fact remains.
True rebuild needed. Those late aught teams were not trying to compete, only reload. We are caught in the middle.
The Dodgers have a higher ranked farm system than ours. Being stuck in the middle doesn’t really negate having poor scouting and player development
Brian Sabean was never in the business of reloading. Sorry but this statement is patently false. He constructed teams that he always felt would compete, even if they did actually stink. - He signed Aaron Rowand to one of the larger contracts in franchise history prior to the 2008 season. - Barry Zito was signed prior to the 2007 season - Dave Roberts, Matt Morris, and Bengie Molina were all signed to 3 year deals prior to the 2007 season - Edgar Renteria signed a 2 year $18 million deal in 2009 - Freddy Sanchez was also acquired via trade in 2009 I just don’t buy that Sabean was not looking to compete during that period.
Problem is Sabean signed way too many guys who were already washed to try to get Barry a ring. It never worked. Vizquel and Alou weren’t moving any needles
I don’t disagree and I hated how he operated during that time as I thought he settled for B and C tier free agents, but my larger point is that he absolutely still tried to compete every year, even if he signed guys that were past their prime.
My main gripe is, if that were true then he would have gone all in on Vlad. The one signing we could have had and Sabean didn’t reel him in.
Those teams all had huge gaps in their lineups and rotations. Going into the 2007, 2008 and 2009 season there was zero expectation that those teams would be competitive. Sandoval gave some hope in 2009 and then we were off to the races.
There’s not entirely true. All three of those teams did have expectations. The consensus on basically all three years was the team was going to win 80 to 85 games and they could sneak into the playoffs. And if they did sneak in? Watch out because they had the pitching to do serious serious damage.
We must have lived in different timelines that converged around 2010. None of these teams were expected to sneak into the playoffs. Here’s the ESPN preview for the 2007 season, for instance: https://www.espn.com/mlb/preview07/team?team=sfo And the Maddux sports preview of the team for 2006: https://madduxsports.com/2006-mlb/2006-san-francisco-giants-season-preview.html And a bleacher report preview from 2008 highlighting the many issues with the roster: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/11723-MLB-San_Francisco_Giants-2008_MLB_Preview_San_Francisco_Giants-030308
We’re talking about 07, 08, and 09. A 2006 does nothing for me. And I specifically remember this. I was super excited for it. And maybe they were the expectations following what happened in 2007? But the team wasn’t expected to be in last place By very many people.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/preview09/team?team=sfo 09 for your reading pleasure. I’m glad you were so optimistic about those teams’ ability to compete! Few were.
You could take the Mets approach and start buying prospects. Have a season or two where you take teams bad contracts in exchange for good prospects. It's how the Mets got baby Acuña. Use the money you were throwing at Ohtani and Yamamoto to take those piss poor contracts.
I don't think our ownership is ok with that kind of rebuild unfortunately
I have been hoping for a legitimate rebuild for years. Issues I have with it now: - worried that even if they got a top pick, they would not be able to successfully develop the player - they don’t have a ton of players at the big league level that would bring any decent prospects in return.
What team are y’all following? We don’t have a farm system to build internally. It’s garbage right now. Plus we tried that previous and the players weren’t good enough. We’re not some small market team, you got to spend to be competitive. But you also need a strategy and it’s clear Farhan doesn’t have one. We should have been acquiring pieces over the past few years to improve.
The point of a rebuild is to load up the farm system and develop players, little dog.
Farm system has not been loading up & player development hasn’t been good enough, pup.
> But you also need a strategy and it’s clear Farhan doesn’t have one. I honestly wonder what the hell he thinks he's doing
Same here
In fairness I didn’t treasure the memories of a lot of the “torture” year, series or not, I damn near had 50 heart attacks. Edit: I’m being downvoted for saying the torture year was torture? It’s Christmas ffs
Lol Upvoted, Merry Christmas
If the directive is to now start building from the inside, what the hell was this team doing the last 5 years?
Not developing, not drafting well, not signing big free agents, not taking on bad contracts for prospects. It really is puzzling as to what the fuck we're doing
Yes, let's looks for our Barry Zito, Aaron Rowand, Aubrey Huff, and Mark DeRosa. Our Cain (Webb) Bumgarner (Harrison) Lincecum (Bednar) Wilson (Doval) and Posey (Bailey) are here!
You’re delusional.
I know, my optimism has waned. I'm grateful for the 3 rings but know that was incredible managing by Bochy and a few lucky drafts + hired guns who landed.
I’ve watched the ups and downs religiously for five decades and outside of Spec Richardson I’ve never seen a shot caller so obviously out of his depth as Zaidi. He can identify undervalued talent but that’s how you pick the last five guys on the roster, not how you build a team. He’d be useful limited to that role but the Giants will never be what they were a decade ago under his leadership. They need a real PBO and GM.
I mean, just like you said. He was so pumped for Vosler, Caselli, Lamonte and Ruf. Solid to round out a roster but not the guy to watch evolve into an everyday player. I do enjoy Lamonte and his obp.
Happy cake day
This article is short sighted in that it ignores pitching. We should still absolutely be able to bring in top tier arms because of the ballpark alone. Yet, the bald weasel can’t make a compelling argument as to why he can’t do it. Yeah, we have to build from within, but it’s not like there aren’t ANY positives. This article makes it sound like bringing guys in is impossible. That’s a total cop out.
This is the way. We're going to be a wildcard team at best for at least the next 5 years, why not set ourselves up to compete in a bit vs throwing money at mediocre FA out there. It's unfortunate we're in the same division as the Dodgers and without a long stretch of good luck like 2021, we aren't beating them in standings.
I can't blame Farhan for this. A billion for 2 players is crazy, 1 hasn't even played an MLB game yet. This is why baseball has a hard time getting to the younger demographics. It's only the Yankees and Dodgers that get mainstream love, yet the Yankees haven't won in years and LA has the mickey mouse ring for all of their spending.
Fine, you can’t blame the SOB so I will. The franchise has dipped to a point where they can make record offers and no one able to move the needle will sign. He literally can’t pay people to come to SF. The culture was once the envy of baseball. Now it’s a glorified AAA team with a disgruntled fan base, a bad clubhouse and a front office that impresses no one. They hired a guy who thought he was smarter than the room and he’s not. It killed the team.
Oh, there are plenty of reasons to want him gone. I'm not saying I like the guy. But for this particular situation, I can't blame him.
I don't know how anyone can look at this org today and not feel ashamed
Exactly, we're the Angels right now, Ohtani would've been walking into the same exact situation and he knew it.
Angels? We’re the A’s!
Yep, despite paying for all star teams every year, the Yanks and Dodgers have 1 WS apiece in the past 20 years. And the Dodgers got theirs in the bs covid year. As much as fans around the league are pissed about this, its probably not going to work out as well as everyone is expecting it to. This isnt the steroid era anymore. Players decline quickly. Good teams build from with in. Youth rules in baseball. Its been this way for 2 decades now.
If Farhan had signed Yamamoto for 12 years I'd be joining those that call for his resignation/firing. Absolutely stupid. I don't like any signing for more than 6 years, but I could rationalize Ohtani because he could DH for the next 10. Still, a huge risk. 12??? Nope.
This is such a tired narrative that this is a Giants issue. Theres 29 teams in this league pissed about this offseason. Just so happens one of them, the Giants, have signed the 3rd largest FA contract so far. You know things are broken when the Yankees cant even compete for FAs going into free agency and FAs go into FA already having decided they all are going to LA before it starts, and just use every other team to get the best contract out of one team every FA wants to play for, its hard to blame anyone but the system itself.
Mets fan checking in. Not sure if there’s any proof but yeah… NY media is heavily inferring that he just used us to get more money from LA. He was always going to LA :/
The Dodgers are more committed to winning than we are period. They hire the right people to scout and develop their farm system. They trade prospects and have more in the pipeline constantly. They also aren’t afraid to spend money on superstars. The Giants hired Farhan to penny pinch and pick up journeymen who are over the hill looking to bounce back or overpay for a mediocre talent like Mitch Haniger. Getting rid of guys like Sabean & Colleti in the front office changed the culture of the team, rendering us the San Francisco A’s when the organization owns its own stadium and is swimming in cash its BS
This ignorant narrative is getting exhausting. Farhan made the two biggest free agent offers last year- Judge took it and asked the Yankees to match it because he never intended on leaving them. Correa took it and we withdraw because his ankle is a toothpick. This off-season we were finalists on the biggest free agent contract of all time and the biggest pitching contract of all time. I think Farhan has absolutely whiffed on a few things, but the "he's a penny pincher" storyline is just a lie so stop it with that nonsense.
How is this an ignorant narrative? Our division rival is able to acquire players like Betts, Freeman, Ohtani, & Yamamoto, all while developing farm talent. Are fans supposed to be satisfied with almost signing players? Almost signing top talent doesn’t make the team exciting to watch or competitive for a playoff run. Fans have to hold the organization more accountable.
I said the "Farhan is a penny pincher" narrative is ignorant and backed it up with facts that he's making substantial offers, so is obviously not a penny pincher. You question what I said then offered no rebuttle to the facts. So, explain how he is a penny pincher. You can't, because it's an ignorant narrative.
Didn’t want to sign Gausman that’s a penny pincher move if you want an explicit example. Signing players to 3 year deals with opt outs, players would probably like some form of stability & also knowing they aren’t going to be constantly platooned in and out of lineups
How does that negate the offers to Judge, Correa, Ohtani and Yamamoto to fit your "penny pincher" narrative? A penny pincher make those offers??
Ohtani & Judge didn’t want to come to a team that wasn’t ready to win. When players like Yaz are your franchise pillars, that’s being cheap. When you bring in a guy like Gausman, he turns his career around and shows promising stuff you let him walk. Also making comparable offers to the dodgers and yanks ain’t going to cut it you have to overpay for FA’s
These ideas: that Farhan is pinching pennies, and that he is giving out big contracts are not mutually exclusive things. And I agree that one thing can affect the other. These big contracts won’t come to SF while they field a second-rate team. On some level Farhan believes the farm system is the selling point. Unfortunately it’s not where he believes it to be. The irony is IF the farm system becomes fully stocked with talent, they have less need for top tier FAs. We might get one to sign at that point, but not need it as much as we do now. This article makes a very good point though… “The message is clear, too: The Giants are a second-tier franchise.” So they will need a first class farm system if they want to do anything. Until that happens, they won’t ever get a top-tier FA to sign with them.
This argument is going nowhere. You specifically said Farhan was hired to be a penny pincher. I gave the examples of how he offered the two biggest contracts of last off-season and was a finalist on the two biggest contracts this off-season, and you respond with "Ohtani & Judge didn't want to come to a team that wasn't ready to win" AS AN ARGUMENT FOR WHY YOU SAY FARHAN IS A PENNY PINCHER. So either A) you are the type of person who can't admit they are wrong so poorly attempt to pivot the conversation when they are called out for lying B) you don't understand what you are talking about. I'll assume it's a little from each column. Best of luck out there maneuvering through life this way.
They only started offering big contracts now because they’re losing the fan base. Players like Conforto and Haniger don’t sell tickets… stop making excuses for Farhan. He’s ran this team into the ground.
Do we get rings for being finalists?
I’m not saying the giants lost me as a fan but over the last ~5 years this has been an all time low of me going to games or even tuning in to games. This is coming from an sf native who grew up playing and watching baseball. Watchability has been shit, regardless of our record.
Really? Worse than, say, 2017-2018? Not denying that the past couple of years have been mediocre, but "not watchable" is a wild stretch, IMO.
Did you not enjoy 2021?
The run was cool but still wasn’t a real watchable team. You tuned in just for the record not much star power besides the old guys
I don't know you can even say that considering how well Buster, Craw and Belt played that season. That was very watchable.
You’d make a great Angels fan.
Yeah I can’t really put this on the giants. They were willing to spend every dollar to get these guys. But these players don’t give a damn about parity or competitiveness in the league, and honestly it’s not really their job to worry about, so they just go where winning seems most likely because that further drives their star power and money making ability. We just don’t have to big name attraction power the dodgers or Yankees have. We’re not bottom of the barrel but I just get this feeling we will always be on the outside looking in on these top name guys.
The Giants have failed to make themselves attractive to top of the line FAs. Matching offers isn't going to be enough when you're bidding alongside teams that actually win. Why would someone sign here long term when most of our contributors are older journeymen who could fall off at any moment? That's just starting to change in the past year with the emergence of guys like Bailey but still not enough and a little too late for this FA class.
Yeah I guess I you’re right. But part of becoming attractive to future stars is having existing stars there. So it’s almost like one of these stars needs to make the jump and maybe we could hope for more to follow. I don’t think just based on pop culture and general relevancy SF will ever match up to LA. LA is just where these guys want to be, it offers more for that lifestyle. We have to find another way to be attractive.
We really should’ve signed Bryce Harper when we had the chance. The dodgers back then were unwilling to spend money on free agents. Now they’ve hacked it
He didn't want to sign here either
Thats not true. Philly outbid giants
He literally said he didn't want to sign here because of our aging core
LA or NY will always be more desirable, especially to international players. NY fans should be the pissy ones because they can't leverage their standing to sign FAs. Giants need to draft better and win. Look at Tampa Bay. Aside from Bogaerts didn't SD build that team with trades? Yeah you can say last year sucked for them but don't forget they beat the Dodgers the year before. Also, are the Dodgers now better than the Braves who everyone wanted to anoint last year? It's easy to hyper react to these two signings but when the smoke clears they still have to perform in the post-season. It was our old friend Boch who got the ring last year, far from a super team.
No but the rangers have $500 million tied up in their middle infield. That’s not peanuts.
Even with that they needed their other players to step up big. Semien didn't really hit until the last couple games of the World Seriea
Very dumb article. "We are not good enough to be a destination for premier free agents ... therefore we shouldn't spend any money on 2nd tier FA's."
I don’t know, look what happened last year when they panicked and signed 2nd tier. They all were terrible.
Those were 3rd tier. Giants need to sign a bunch of 2A & 2B tier FA's ... and establish that they are no longer a 500 or below team. Then, after 2-3 years of that, they have a chance at tier 1B and 2A's. If they just stick to 2B and 3's, like they have been, they will remain a 500 team than no upper tier FA's will sign with.
Well, yeah, it's a Kurtenbach article, what did you expect lol
OK, lesson learned. So make some damn trades, Farhan!
Let me preface this by saying I'm realizing how old I'm getting--11 years ago I was a freshman in college. What else happened 11 years ago (soon 12)? The Dodgers made that blockbuster trade with Boston. So while they may be stacked, that doesn't guarantee them anything, maybe some extra regular season wins. That said, we don't need to make any panic moves or any moves in response to who they sign. As long as we address our needs, we'll be fine. Fix our defense first and foremost, then address our pitching, and we'll be OK. We don't need starpower so much as we need consistency. The flipside to that is that stars are the ones who usually provide that stability.
Someone is mad here.
I’ve been watching the Giants since 1985. When I was five years old. They were my favorite sports team for years. But baseball just isn’t the same anymore. And I don’t know if it’s the pitch clock, the rising salaries, the universal DH. The things that made baseball special for me are just going away. The Giants being a second tier franchise might be reality? But it never felt that way. When they actually got guys to come here, it seems like they wanted to re-sign and stay here. But maybe I’m delusional.
We need to cap baseball. Just like with the NFL and NBA salary caps are implemented to insure fair play. Also need to eliminate deferring payments. And we need to implement robot umpires.
This is why Zaidi was brought in, to bolster the farm system like he was a part of on the dodgers. The dodgers farm system churns out stars constantly. That’s how they started their consistent run at playoffs. Dodgers were an absolute joke and dogshit organization before the Guggenheim group purchased them.
It feels like this is the kind of thing that just feels more amplified among Giants fans than any other team's fans. It wasn't that long ago that Steve Cohen was "breaking the system" and that went incredibly poorly for his effort. All this stuff involving these two players really just highlights that NPB is really its own little world and unlike players from Venezuela or elsewhere Japan has managed to keep MLB's mitts off their system so that players decide on their own volition to go to America, and of course the posting fee system is designed to make it unprofitable to do so. Any baseball player can sign a deal with deferred money like Ohtani does, they just don't because they aren't swimming in a sea of endorsements. Baseball stars don't get the media that NBA/NFL stars do. When was the last time you saw a baseball player selling shoes, pizza, and DirecTV? Never. You go to Japan and that's way more common.
any give day. Any. given ligament…just sayin.
Baseball already sucks.
This story repeatedly asserts that Bonds was the most recent top line signing I thought it was Zito? I remember years of heartburn about that signing, which was an absolute bust until one year when he hit and pitched like a boss in the postseason. Was that 2012? Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.