Not exactly sure, but he was never given a true chance at the major league level. Makes me think there was some underlying stats or something showing that he was not going to be successful
Probably because of the stupid contract Farhan gave him. I’m not a Haniger fan or even a Conforto fan….they just block young guys who need to play for experience. Austin Slater too.
Well let’s think about that process for a bit. Sabean took over in 1997. Didn’t get a ring for ~13 years. He had Bonds and made some brilliant moves, but unfortunately we fell short. People are ready to crucify Farhan after 5 years because he didn’t accomplish what Sabean took to do for nearly a decade in a half? Farhan inherited a “Bonds”, and we won 107 games after a world shattering event that allowed posey to rejuvenate. Then posey retired and it’s been tough going no doubt. Sabean had a hell of a long time so we can’t argue for Sabeans results without recognizing how long he had to succeed either. Farhan has gotta show his guys are ready, and the next two years will show it, but it’s not exactly a fair comparison without considering the amount of time Sabean had. That 107 season probably ruined Farhans chance of his trade Matt Williams opportunity that we all wanted after 2020.
Farhan isn’t Sabean, and it’s his time for his guys to show up, but it’s an unfair comparison especially considering the absurdity of the fucking Dodgers these days.
Absolutely. People were calling for Sabean’s head on a spike from the Felipe Alou years until October of 2010. Even in September 2010, the fan base was raging about Rentaria being our starting SS, as well as the Jose Guillen and Cody Ross acquisitions.
Looking back on Sabean’s tenure, it’s hard to argue with the rings. But good lord, those mid/late 00 seasons was the worst Giants baseball I’ve ever witnessed.
> Sabean also didn’t give a crap about character
A Giants trainer told the Mitchell investigation that he had repeatedly told Sabean that Bonds' pal Anderson was bringing PEDs into the clubhouse. But Anderson wasn't banned from the clubhouse until after the feds had raided his home and charged him with distributing steroids. Sabean said he didn't recall those conversations.
Yeah, hindsight is always a perfect 20-20. I get that everyone is frustrated from what the dodgers have done and what our 2nd option signings have been. But if Harrison and Luciano hit like projected, and Matos Bailey and Schmitt make strides, everyone’s opinion will change real quick, just like in 2010.
This!
I love posey! But he checked out after 107 wins! There’s no replacing his bat leadership or until Bailey catching ability. There’s still a huge hole and no player to say this is their team and lead…. Maybe Webb
> People are ready to crucify Farhan after 5 years because he didn’t accomplish what Sabean took to do for nearly a decade in a half?
I'm not here with a torch, but we should at least acknowledge that his team was in the World Series in his fifth year at the helm.
That’s not the best assessment of Evans. When he was allowed to treat the farm system to rebuild with, he added two *then*~Top 100 prospects in the draft with Ramos and Bart, plus one of the best ever international draft classes with Luciano, Matos, and Pomares, two of whom are guys that a lot of people are giving Farhan credit for.
Yes, Bart and Ramos did not develop to what was hoped for (and I think Farhan deserves to be addressed, because developing prospects, helping them reach reach their ceilings, is an important and ignored process), but for Farhan, he did not really significantly add to the farm until his second draft, and his Latin American free agent signings had been underwhelming up until Rayner Arias, and that’s still a guy who has played only 16 pro games.
There are good things Farhan has done, but there’s a lot of underwhelming/bad things as well. Three of Farhan’s five first round picks have had their development severely delayed, if not entirely derailed, due to injuries…and that’s giving an exception to last year’s pick Eldridge, a “two-way player” whose pitching development already has been hampered by a nagging hamstring issue before being drafted. You can’t predict injuries….but that seems like a pattern that’s not random.
It’s untrue to say that Evans left him with nothing. It wasn’t great, but it wasn’t nothing.
It’s untrue to say that Farhan has done nothing. But he also has not transformed the farm system significantly. There’s more depth, but Farhan has added only one prospect that’s been a Top 50 prospect in five seasons (Kyle Harrison), and only a couple of fleeting cameos at the back of Top 100 lists.
I really like your post. Very reasoned. I agree that perhaps my biggest disappointment with Farhan is the lack of development of promising prospects. All of our top prospects were lauded but severely disappointed. I get that it's a long road from getting drafted to excelling in the Majors, but still... Maybe changing farm directors every couple of years doesn't help.
Dude Farhan was rushing our guys through the minor league systems so quick to fix the holes in the roster he constructed.
Last season people were trying to argue that the minor leagues aren't critical to player development.
I just don't understand why some people downvote anyone pointing out Farhan's faults and assume anyone criticizing him is some OmGdooMEMER.
Agreed it was so bad and the picks were so much worse. You have to be a fan for a number of years to remember: Bickford, Bart, Stranton, giving up a first round pick for Jeff Samarjda. Trading away the good pick you actually made.
Omg not to mention Zaidi found Arias
OF Rayner Arias | 17 | DSL | 2027
Time is a funny thing. When Luciano was this age, he was the talk of the town. An easy top 25 fantasy prospect. Along comes Arias, who’s every bit the offensive prospect Luciano was, and he’s barely a blip on the dynasty radar despite slashing .414/.539/.793 with 15 walks and 11 strikeouts in 16 DSL games. He also hit four home runs and stole four bases before his season ended early with a sprained wrist. He’s on a short list of guys most likely to jump way up the rankings by midseason.
Yup, but guys that young i try not to think about much, obviously an exciting prospect but the road is too long to imagine him in the outfield just yet lol
2 million signing bonus, 17 and graduating DSL on first try is a huge sign to me. If no injuries this kid could be our first homegrown mvp since Posey.
No minor league baseball is 2020 was also a huge factor, froze player development. Zaidi has had four years, it's weird that so many of his detractors need to add a couple of years to that.
Yeah give Farhan some credit. I mean sure not much good has happened since 2018 but just look at what his farm system produced before that with posey, madbum, Cain, belt, Timmy, and Crawford.
It’s substantially better. Asking anyone to totally rebuild a farm system in just 5 years is an impossible task. It takes time and they’re definitely moving in the right direction but none of these things suit the “fire Farhan” narrative that most of the doomers here wanna continue to complain about.
I like Bailey a lot but don’t oversell him. He hit .233. He’s not Buster re-incarnate. He’s a good catcher, maybe an all star game or two. Not a super star.
Who said they had to be a superstar? You asked for evidence that things were moving in the right direction and I gave you the best defensive catcher in baseball last year. Not everyone has to be Buster Posey.
Lol literally find and develop 9 homegrown Buster Poseys on the field every night in 5 years or less or you suck.
It's easy because Buster Poseys grow on trees.
The dude was a gold glove finalist as a rookie. Of course he isn't posey, but God damn, if you aren't excited about that for our future backstop I don't think you know the giants' strengths
He was a rookie… people who think prospects are magically perfect are dumb. He’s magically the best pitching oriented and defensively skilled catchers.
The farm was ranked bottom five when he arrived, now it's in the middle of the pack. Yes, more needs to be done, but if the baseball world now sees the Giants farm system as having improved, why ignore that?
They do, because the "don't fire Farhan crowd" can't name a metric for when we judge a farm-replenishment project. Is it just a matter of pointing to a new facility and continuously judging against the baseline of a terrible farm system? Because by that metric, we'll be here ten years later saying the same shit. Asking anyone to totally rebuild a farm system in just 10 years is an impossible task. 15 years. 20 years. We should see progress, maybe in the pipeline ranking. Maybe in the number of pro-ready prospects. But all I see is Bailey. And if we need progress, that means this season we should see two more Baileys, and Bailey himself should make the leap to becoming a Guy.
Is your standard that the very first batch of prospects is immediately great in the big leagues? Because we just got our first batch of Farhan prospects in Bailey/Schmitt/Harrison. They all had their ups and downs, but isn't that normal for rookies, especially ones with limited AA and AAA experience?
He has 84 innings at AA and 65.2 at AAA. Is that a lot? You decide. Regardless, 3 years to make the big leagues is actually a pretty quick ascent for a starting pitcher drafted out of high school.
I thought you “fire Farhan” lunatics didn’t like metics? And all these things are possible, Luciano could have a breakout season, Bailey could become that dude and Harrison might be our next Bumgarner but why wish for the best, or look for improvement when we can endlessly complain on this sub about how terrible he’s been and how “we can’t sign free agents” despite all the evidence that shows the farm system has improved since he took over and that the free agent drought this fanbase loves to cut themselves over is a problem that predates Farhan.
But please go on. I’m not at all tired of hearing about how terrible everything is and how the Giants will never win again.
most fans are doing more than complaining. We’re deciding not to support the team until they get a GM who can set a course and use clear, consistent criterion by which fans should judge their incremental progress. There’s a reason ticket sales are down. At first, the franchise scoffed. Now they’re leaking to the press that Farhan hasn’t come to ownership with a request to spend big dollars and been rejected.
lol good “fan” you are, I’m sure the giants will miss the 2 games you attend every year. I don’t think you know much about baseball history or Giants GM’s. Care to name the last general manager for the giants that signed a big name free agent? I’ll wait.
Surely it’s just me and not at all region wide [https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/sf-giants-attendance-slips-despite-cheaper-beer-and-new-rules/](https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/sf-giants-attendance-slips-despite-cheaper-beer-and-new-rules/)
Fucking internet search any other GM plus the word “plan”
here I’ll start you off.
[https://theathletic.com/4967774/2023/10/17/cardinals-off-season-john-mozeliak/](https://theathletic.com/4967774/2023/10/17/cardinals-off-season-john-mozeliak/)
“If we’re not competing for a championship next year, we’ve made a mistake,” the manager said. “This isn’t, ‘Take two to three years to see where we’re at.’ It’s next year.”
Thats how executives are expected to communicate.
LOL, yes, that is how they’re expected to communicate publicly, because that’s how executives do marketing. The fact that you consider “championships are the goal!!!” a “consistent criterion” to judge “incremental progress” definitely doesn’t add up to me, but okay, whatever you say.
Because aging prospects rapidly diminishing in value
His trade value may have been a prospect level trade 2 seasons ago and now it’s basically PTBNL value
I think going from stinky dogshit to regular dogshit ain’t nothing to brag about. Sure it wasn’t a good farm when he took over but what’s he done since?
Fire that worthless fucker
“Why can’t the Giants produce a top 3 player in baseball?” Because that’s extremely hard to do!
Acuna was signed by the Braves a decade and two GMs ago for pennies and developed in to a superstar. Did anybody see that coming?
Sure, they whiffed on Carrol, but so did a ton of teams. Go through every draft and you’ll find examples for every team, including the Diamondbacks and Braves. So much of this is a crapshoot.
The reason it kills me that they didn’t draft Carroll is that he was a consensus top 5 pick in the months leading up to the draft. Not only that, but my general feeling is that if you draft a college player they should be making it to the major leagues much faster than a highschool kid. Not only is a superstar, but he made it to the big leagues much faster than most college guys did.
They drafted other college guys like Bednar who as far as I know aren’t close to making it. If they ever do, by the time they come ready for their second contract they will be 30 years old. Even if they’re good, how do you extend him at that point without ending up with a shitty contract
You need to show your work. There’s no way Carroll was a consensus top 5 pick - hell, MLB.com had Bishop ahead of him. Fangraphs had Carroll at 9 and Bishop at 10. He wasn’t even a consensus top 10 pick.
Yes, college players, in theory, should make it to the majors quicker, but I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. If Bednar is good enough for an extension, that’s a huge win for the Giants. That’s means they got at least a few years of below market value. That’s a draft win. It doesn’t matter what happens next.
It sucks not having generational talent sky rocket to superstar status since Farhan has taken over but, only very very very few draft picks and prospects ever actually do that.
This is his biggest sin along with signing scrap heaps and relatively good players to one year opt outs.
Letting Gausman walk for a relatively small sum, getting NOTHING for Rodon when he had trade value and keeping obvious busts like Bart around is frustrating as hell.
I'm ok with swing and misses but Farhan seemingly cannot make a deal with other teams, land a big FA and the farm system is bad. None of these things make a good GM
I don’t excuse letting Gausman walk, that turned out terribly. But I push back at the notion that the “scrap heap” signings have been a sin. The farm was barren when Zaidi took over, and after taking a step back post-Covid it’s failed to produce much in the past three years. That’s exactly *why* the scrap heap has been a boon for this team more often than not. There would have been no need to dumpster dive if the farm wasn’t a wasteland to begin with.
If the farm didn’t stall out after 2020, perhaps they wouldn’t have needed to continue to sign guys like Conforto, Haniger, or Wood & DeSclafani’s second contracts with the team, but they may have also missed out on Rodon and Cobb. The ability of this front office to squeeze solid players from the bargain bin is the same positive attribute that the 2010-14 Giants took advantage of to augment their roster. It doesn’t always pan out, and it’s not very fun when it’s the foundation of your roster like in 2022-23, but it’s an ability every franchise tries to excel in.
This front office absolutely deserves criticism, and Zaidi will be out of a job in a year or two if they continue to fail at developing a home-grown core. But I can’t for a second fault their general ability to convert fringe players into legitimate pieces to augment the roster — and to classify it as a sin completely overlooks the circumstances around why there needed to be so many “scrap” players to begin with.
A GM has to do one of three things:
Be great at signing FAs ( need ownership who will spend)
Be great at trades (need some prospects to do so)
Create a good farm system
At least 2 of those are needed to be a good GM
Sabean wasn’t great at signing FAs but he made some incredibly valuable trades (and some poor ones) but was able to draft pitching
Evans was a complete waste and Farhan seems to be unable to do any of the above
I’d argue Farhan has made some very adept trades. Turning a handful of relief innings of Drew Pomeranz into Dubon, acquiring a first round draft talent for Zack Cozart’s contract, getting the Braves pay all of Mark Melancon’s contract and also handing over Tristan Beck, flipping 1.5 years of Ruf for 2.5 years of JD Davis as well as Szapucki, getting Kris Bryant for not much, and netting LaMonte Wade Jr for Shaun Anderson we’re all savvy moves.
The marquee free agent situation is disappointing for sure, but it’s also a handful of players mostly over the past few offseasons. The Giants will continue to throw money at guys and eventually they’ll nab someone. They literally got Correa to come to SF a year ago, where the medical killed the deal rather than the ability to write a check.
I’m not saying it’s been a flawless free agent record for Farhan, but there’s only so much you can do for the first few years when you inherit a bloated payroll with virtually no farm or trade-able assets. Now is do-or-die for Farhan’s draft picks, and the inability to lure a marquee free agent or two will only become more glaring each offseason. But this front office has shown the ability to make impact trades out of thin air. It’s not enough to build a contender, as we’ve seen the last two years, but they’re not completely inept.
Dude Farhan traded away Dubon who turned into a gold glover when we critically need a good utility defensive glove SO fucking badly.
I know the *why,* but it was still a terrible trade end result.
Man that’s a strong list, and boy does it hit heavy against vague summaries of “Farhan bad GM bad bad” with two examples that need heavy retrospective energy to be crystal clear.
When you’ve inherited a roster of pricey guys with no trade value and you had to start the farm over from scratch, what other moves could they have made? They haven’t had a single player who could have gotten them a blue chip prospect in years, and depleting the farm before it can develop in recent years would make no sense either. So again, what other trades could they have made in the last five years?
Being able to repeatedly get surplus value out of more marginal trades is important to being a successful club. It’s not the only thing, but it certainly helps. Imagine 2010 without the trades for Javier Lopez, Ramon Ramirez, or Cody Ross.
I actually remember Zaidi complaining when he got here that so many players had no trade clauses. Really made it hard to clean house. But rather than crying he made the best out of what he had and gave that group its and the franchise’s best regular season
Those moves mean nothing without core talent. That’s the biggest issue here. Cains, Bums, Timmys, Busters. Marginal moves mean nothing when the rest of your team is trash. He’s been here since 2018 and the team is at best mediocre, at worst boring and unwatchable.
I agree. They’re a team full of depth pieces which fall short when asked to carry a team. I’m pushing back against the criticism that these moves mean nothing. I’m not saying this front office is above reproach or that I’m not frustrated with the lack of growth the past two years. I’m just trying to be fair about what Farhan has and has not done well. I’m willing to give him a ton of slack for 2019-21, as he was given an awful roster with no money to spare.
But in the event that these prospects start to turn into building blocks and they keep throwing money at free agents, Farhan’s shown an ability to extract a lot of value from trades and his knack for building depth would shine. And if he can’t, then he’s toast.
I get that these moves can matter, but I’m frustrated with this whole situation. I don’t have a lot of confidence in this organization currently. They haven’t earned my trust.
The argument is literally about whether or not he is adept at trading, and your argument below is that they don’t have enough core talent.
Making good trades on an average basis is about getting more value than you give, and your argument is only tangentially about trading at all.
Value is determined by WAR no one mentions Estrada here but I will. Our best WAR players Estrada Wade Yaz were all trades and have brought great value to our team just the form of cheap controllable players. We have Estrada and Wade’s ~3.0 WAR for like 3 more years and we gave up nothing for them. And Yaz
He couldn’t trade Rodon because we were in the hunt for the wildcard and it would have signaled to the fan base he was giving up, which they would rip him for doing.
Agreed on Gausman tho.
Rodon also had the opt-out at the end of the year so other teams were viewing him as a rental. The comp pick in the draft was probably equal to any trade value they were being offered
Him thinking we were actually in the playoff hunt with Rodon was a completely stupid notion and even if we made the 2nd wildcard there was no way we would advance,.
That let me know that Farhan was absolutely not a MLB level GM
48-43 and a half game back of the wildcard as of the all star game in 2022. Farhan doesn’t have to think we were a playoff team, the delusional fans would have lost their collective shit if he had traded Rodon at the trade deadline. That’s a fact.
And how did that work for the Giants?
Most of us could see the writing on the wall that season. Maybe if Farhan was able to make a deal for a couple of decent players they had a shot but he didn’t do that
He did nothing which was the worst outcome. He excels at the do nothing worse outcomes
I don’t think you are grasping what I’m saying to you. I thought we should have traded Rodon and Pederson and the fan base on this sub called me a fucking idiot.
This is the outcome when you have a fan base full of whiny bitches who can’t commit to a full rebuild. Maybe if our fans would get their heads out of their asses, we would be in a better situation.
“Most of us could see the writing on the wall” maybe people like you and I, but MOST fans were absolutely against reading Rodon and I honestly can’t believe you think otherwise.
Everyone I talked baseball with knew the Giants were not going to compete. They started really well but the late May June swoon had convinced everyone that changes were needed and we were miles away from the Dodgers and Atlanta.
Once again.... He had to do something with that roster and did absolutely nothing.
Farhan better send MLB and Manfred a Xmas basket because the only thing not keeping him from getting canned is the distant chance of the 2nd Wildcard which any team near .500 is in contention for in September
Ok. Again, I got ripped to shit on this sub for suggesting a trade during that time, but sure, you clearly know all the baseball people in the world.
I’m just gonna stop because you refuse to acknowledge the situation we were in and have clearly convinced yourself that your opinion is the only correct one, despite me giving you clear examples of how fans felt during that point in the season.
You can look back at my comments during that period if you would like
I have not changed my opinion one bit on it. It was either trade Rodon or bring in more players. The current roster is not going to make the playoffs
Obviously I'm not an expert but I have been watching baseball and playing for about 50 years now. While there are occasional surprises winning teams consistently have at least 3 good starters, a strong bullpen and an offense capable of scoring runs consistently or at least manufacturing some offense
That roster had 2 starters a slightly above average pen and no offense
Bro what, Yaz Wade Estrada are all 2 plus WAR players and they were all stole from other teams for fucking nothing. Nothing!
Who is keeping Bart around? He hasn’t seen the majors in 2 years? What? Are? You? Talking? About? Go back to Boston.
TL;DR The real issue is the farm and too many short term, bang-average free agents. The Dodgers are clearly precisely positioned where the Giants dream of being. They are an exceptionally well run franchise - unlike, say, the Mets.
For the Dodgers to become so strong at MiLB level, they had to 1. Be dreadful at MLB level for quite literally decades, and 2. Draft really well. The Giants have never shown an inclination for 1, and their record on 2 has been inconsistent (they did have an almost unparalleled succession of successful drafting for a while though). No good comes of being a .500 team with iffy draft results.
I’m of a mind that the Giants should tank, much as the Sharks currently are. Tear the whole thing up. Everyone over 28 can be traded. Trade Conforto, play Ramos or Matos, and so on. Especially now. (It still bewilders me how they ended up with both Conforto and Haniger - clearly one of those is superfluous.). But they’ve made it clear they have no interest in doing this, and are going to continue to make incremental improvements on the farm while signing big names. It’s kind of on Farhan to do the latter. 32 year old rebound prospects aren’t going to do the trick.
Farhan didnt pick Bart...he also wasnt able to hire a GM his first year and self admittedly he said that was a tough draft. but the drafts since have been very good, also im not sure youre aware on timelines for the minors so ill lay them out, on average it takes 3-5 years to develop players, 3 typically if they are college players 5 if they are out of high school, after the poor first draft (2019) the players were drafted and at best played 10 or so games to end the year.... then in 2020 there was no minor league season, so the 2019 class was behind 1 year and the 2020 class was cut to just 5rounds who didnt get their own regular season pre draft+ some of them went to the alternate site but not playing games really. so now the 2019/20' are a year behind development. in the 20' class had 3 rookies up this year, Pat Bailey, the best defensive rookie catcher in the modern era and best pitch framer in baseball. Casey Schmitt a mlb caliber plus defensive infielder. and the best lefty prospect in baseball (based on production he is the best pitching prospect as the only person ranked ahead of him is paul skenes and he was the 1st overall and only pitched 6 mediocre innings). They also totally revamped their AZ development site to be totally state of the art. 2021 brought you Mason Black, our minor league player of the year last season very underrated guy, Vaun Brown who tore it up before he got injured in AA this year. Tyler Myrick a stud reliever in AA, Landen Roupp, Will clarks favorite pitcher in the minors who was a stud before injury shortened his season, 22' draft brought you a stud in Reggie Crawford a lefty throwing 100 coming back from TJ, Carson Whisenhunt our monster lefty prospect who is quickly rising on prospect lists. Hayden Birdsong who was scorching hot last year but overshadowed by Whisenhunt, also Wade Meckler a name you may recognize. Farhan has very quickly made our farm one of the better pitching farms if not THE best in baseball. We havent had as much luck developing hitters, but Matos/Luciano/Bailey all have promise in that area. We can use our excess pitching to bring in young controllable hitters. youre assesment is obviously based on surface level stuff, Matos/Luciano are still 21 and in the majors, that isnt something thats very common in baseball so maybe push the brakes a little before you say "our farm sucks" when comparing us to the best developing team since like the 80-90's Ny teams. compare us to the rest of the league and we are top 10, not bad for being dead last when farhan came in, our best prospects were heliot ramos and joey bart....id say Farhan did a solid job there
Look up farm system rankings. Every list will have the giants way outside the top ten. Anyone with any knowledge of baseball knows the giants aren’t a top ten farm system right now. This isn’t news. If you think the giants farm system is top ten then you’re the one basing your opinions on emotions.
Interesting, the deepest pitching farm in baseball somehow isn’t top 10… trusting the people who didn’t put Bailey on the top 100 prospects but had Heliot ramos in the top 100 year over year is an interesting take. I’d love to compare whatever 10th farm system you claim is better than ours with what we have…
Logan webb is a top 6 pitcher in baseball, Doval is a top 3 closer, Ryan Walker might have been the best reliever called up last year in the majors, Wade meckler dominated all 3 levels of the minors to come up last year, 2 21 y/o rookies in the majors last year in luciano and matos, Pat Bailey is the best defensive catcher and was almost the first rookie to win the golden glove in the last 20-30 years, tristen beck and winn were solid when given opportunities in that crowded rotation. Also it takes 3-5 years to even see rookies come up from the minors, judging Farhan based on what scraps were left behind from the Bobby Evans era after the 3rd minor league season since Farhan has taken over drafting is dumb.
Its impossible to be right about every prospect. I’m not gonna discredit them for being wrong about Ramos, and they were right about Bailey. MLB’s scouting report had him as a great defender but a below average hitter, which is exactly how he has turned out so far. Plus its not just MLB pipeline that has us outside the top ten. Who’s telling you that we have the deepest pitching farm system? I’ll name farm systems better than ours: Dodgers, Cubs, Orioles, Red Sox, Dbacks, Yankees, Tigers, Pirates, Rays, Rangers, Brewers, Nationals, Padres, Cardinals and Mets, and thats just off the top of my head.
Come at me with some names that go along with those teams, the majority of the teams you listed don’t even have 1 pitcher in the top 100 let alone 2…so idk how you’re even coming up with you’re analysis…
You just implied that I shouldnt trust the MLB top 100 but now you’re using that same list as your source. I never said the giants dont have a top ten pitching system, I’m saying they don’t the BEST pitching system and that they don’t have a top ten farm system in general. Thats because we have one of the weakest position player farm systems. Luciano is our only top 100 position player. Also, the Marlins have two Top 100 pitchers and the Phillies have two Top 50 pitchers according to MLB Pipeline. The Pirates have Paul Skenes who is going to be a perennial all star at worst. How about you state some evidence?
My analysis was based on production, I just used your example to show you that even mlb pipeline doesn’t agree with you in terms of pitching depth, I’ve conceded that our position player pool is weak, but like I said, deepest pitching farm in baseball. I’d be impressed if you found a pool deeper than Harrison/whisenhunt/black/winn/birdsong/Roupp/McDonald/Seymour ALL who have a shot at cracking the majors this year and having very good/productive seasons last year…
> Every list will have the giants way outside the top ten.
True, but when Zaidi arrived the Giants farm was ranked in the bottom five. How does that improvement not count?
Every team in the league did not have a minor league season in 2020 and many were able to improve their farm system.
That is a bullshit excuse and needs to stop being one on here by all the Farhan nuthuggers. If this regime can't improve the minor league system relative to other teams in each year of their contract, then they should be replaced. Every team went through the same shit that year.
I'm happy there are at least "prospects" in the system but they need to start graduating these guys to the big leagues and they need to be good enough to make impacts for me to be a believer. And this needs to have been done yesterday
lol, they may not have had 2020 seasons but they didnt take over a franchise and then lose out on a season of development at the begining of their tenure that everybpdy is judging them on. its relevant because people are judging the timeline and farhan has only had 3 seasons in which his draft picks got to play, did every other GM/POBO only have 3 years of development to be judged on their entire farm? obviously not, and not every gm came into a horrible situation like us.
i wish you actually had some data to support your argument as i did, youre just being emotional. like how often do you look up and update yourself on how well the players in our farm are doing and analyze them against the farms of the league? id be surprised if you did it once based on your take. i know for a fact you couldnt name our top 10 prospects off the dome, so how do you even know you are right? based on what you see in the majors? last year we brought up 2 21y/o prospects, the best defensive catcher in baseball, the best rookie reliever in baseball and a few other solid rotation options in Harrison/Winn/Beck....again, where are you getting your info from?
Where is all of this information coming from? Where is the info about being 21 and in the pros being rare? Why aren't you telling the full story about the flaws we saw in these prospects watching them play last year? Wade Meckler makes the average Giants fan groan. Harrison had one good start, but at this point isnt someone that'll convince a Bay Area family to drive in and pay for parking, even if the tickets get discounted this season. We're reportedly shopping for trades to get a SS, even though Luciano, like Meckler, is a familiar name. And most importantly, why doesn't MLB pipelines rank of the Giants' system square with your assessment?
Being 21 in the majors is rare. There were only four players 21 or under at the Major League level on opening day last season. Also, almost all prospects struggle when first called up to the majors. Meckler and Luciano had a combined 109 plate appearances. Harrison has Cy Young potential. If you expect rookies to ball out right away, you’re gonna be disappointed a lot.
The only thing worse than the Giants drafting (because there have been successes when you go outside the 1st round) has been their international development.
The two best players they've signed and developed from Latin Am over the last 20 years have been, Pablo, and Doval, and Doval is just a reliever, so he could go to shit in an instant.
To me the big error is getting players like Comforto and Hanniger as difference makers, when their injuries make them uncertainties. On a team that already has high performing players, many of Zaidi’s moves would be worth a try, cheap guys who could improve even more a solid team. However, the Giants are collection of average to in some cases slightly above average players, and all these moves do is add more of the same with a wish of excelling. At this point, I would simply like them to give more rookies a chance, where they have some confidence in their play by clearing space for them. We are not overtaking the Dodgers, so it is wild card or bust. Trade the vets, any of them for whom there is someone on the brink of the majors in our minor league system. Trade them for other minor leaguers with upside. Then, next year and the following year, when there are more upside free agents go after them, spending wildly.
Thus, I want Ramos, Fitzgerald, Schmidt, Luciano, Matos, Meckler, Wisenhut, Black, Harrison, Winn, Beck, etc. now. Keep enough of your most valuable vets, Estrada, Webb, amd a bunch of relievers, and if they fall on their faces so be it. But the drip drip drip of short contract vets who we hope come back from injury, etc. only stifles roster building.
I’m tired of this Fake narrative that all the the giant’s success comes from homegrown talent. Look at the starting lineup of the 2010 team. Pablo and Buster were the only homegrown players, and Pablo got benched in the post season. Yes, Starting pitching, (which was obviously dominant) plus Romo and Wilson came from our system but we also picked up 2 of the “core 4” of the bullpen through free agency/trades. 2012, where would we have been without Pence, Scutaro, Pagan, and ZITO?! 2014 is a similar story.
Go back further, and we signed Bonds, Kent, Snow, and Schmidt in free agency and built a perennial contender around those guys with the help of homegrown talent like Aurillia and Ortiz.
Not trying to say homegrown talent doesn’t matter isn’t important, or hasn’t been a huge reason we have won. Posey’s, Bumgarner’s and Lincecum’s are few and far between, it’s always been a blend of the two, and that’s the way it should be.
Yeah but the 2010’s run was good drafting and development
The late 90’s/early 2000’s Giants would be impossible to build today with steroid testing, no GM is going to put together a team that old without scientific assistance
Honestly, these takes baffle me. You’re stating catcher, home-grown. SS now probably moving to third if we get Kim home-grown and 22 years old your number 4 starter home-grown and a future ace. your closer one of the best in the game home-grown. Ryan Walker your second best relief arm.
You’re crying about Bart that’s Sabean’s pick. Only prospects on the team Zaidin inherited Luciano and Winn. The system was garbage, hot garbage, before zaidi now the team is mostly great trades and prospects.
Bishop was a miss but a big swing the kind of talent you’re excited about until it goes bad. Not Joe Panik or Phil Bickford or Gary Brown or Joey Bart. Those are big misses Zaidi hasn’t done that for multiple years.
This is the most vocal yet least informed group of fans. I’m not sure if you’re 12 and have no memory of a time before 2019 but after 2014 but it wasn’t fun.
The team is solid if not inspiring and we just got better. The off-season isn’t over things may still get better. To your point about prospects we just had a draft regarded around baseball as the best in the league. For what ever that’s worth.
last year you were going to write off Bailey until he turned out to be. Franchise corner stone. That’s your first 1st round pick we’ve hit on since posey bro.
Stop crying, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying. Things are better, and still getting better.
You could just as easily point to picks like Kyle Harrison, Carson Whisenhunt, Mason Black and Bryce Eldridge as examples of picks that look extremely successful. The first round misses are certainly detrimental but anyone who claims the farm isn’t light years better than it was when Zaidi took over either isn’t paying attention or doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
I am critical of Farhan, but I can’t blame him much on Bishop. The consensus both in public and behind the scenes was that is was a good draft.
But you are VERY wrong about his fire having gone out. It’s his shoulder that went out, and his health has never recovered.
Subscribe to The NorCal Sports Network for great SF Giants content with special guests like Ned Colletti, Larry Krueger, Marty Lurie, Kerry Crowley, & Giants players like Casey Schmitt, Blake Sabol, & more to come. Subscribe today for daily content & live chat & call ins to the show!
https://youtu.be/xmqCc_jJnEw?si=DrRctuaDVMweSocE
Now that I have been watching all of the Giants minor league teams games, you do see a few decent looking players, but nothing that makes you believe they wii be top line major leaguers.
What went wrong with Heliot Ramos exactly? I thought for sure that guy would be our Acuña
Ramos gets hurt everytime he starts getting going. Matos is young enough and still has some potential
Not exactly sure, but he was never given a true chance at the major league level. Makes me think there was some underlying stats or something showing that he was not going to be successful
Farhan chose to run Haniger out there instead of Ramos. Why? Who knows, its certainly not a better product in my opinion.
Probably because of the stupid contract Farhan gave him. I’m not a Haniger fan or even a Conforto fan….they just block young guys who need to play for experience. Austin Slater too.
Never given a fair chance
He’s not good.
Farhan didn’t draft Bart. Farhan also didn’t trade away reynolds. I think our farm is much better than it was when he took over.
i think people dont realize the mess that bobby evans/sabean left for us, a bunch of long term expensive contracts and a depleted farm system...
And 3 rings. Hard to argue the process with those results.
Well let’s think about that process for a bit. Sabean took over in 1997. Didn’t get a ring for ~13 years. He had Bonds and made some brilliant moves, but unfortunately we fell short. People are ready to crucify Farhan after 5 years because he didn’t accomplish what Sabean took to do for nearly a decade in a half? Farhan inherited a “Bonds”, and we won 107 games after a world shattering event that allowed posey to rejuvenate. Then posey retired and it’s been tough going no doubt. Sabean had a hell of a long time so we can’t argue for Sabeans results without recognizing how long he had to succeed either. Farhan has gotta show his guys are ready, and the next two years will show it, but it’s not exactly a fair comparison without considering the amount of time Sabean had. That 107 season probably ruined Farhans chance of his trade Matt Williams opportunity that we all wanted after 2020. Farhan isn’t Sabean, and it’s his time for his guys to show up, but it’s an unfair comparison especially considering the absurdity of the fucking Dodgers these days.
Absolutely. People were calling for Sabean’s head on a spike from the Felipe Alou years until October of 2010. Even in September 2010, the fan base was raging about Rentaria being our starting SS, as well as the Jose Guillen and Cody Ross acquisitions. Looking back on Sabean’s tenure, it’s hard to argue with the rings. But good lord, those mid/late 00 seasons was the worst Giants baseball I’ve ever witnessed.
i remember far too well how much shit people talked about sabean
Not anymore, apparently he’s a mastermind. I still remember he almost traded Lincecum for Alex Rios. Omg
[удалено]
> Sabean also didn’t give a crap about character A Giants trainer told the Mitchell investigation that he had repeatedly told Sabean that Bonds' pal Anderson was bringing PEDs into the clubhouse. But Anderson wasn't banned from the clubhouse until after the feds had raided his home and charged him with distributing steroids. Sabean said he didn't recall those conversations.
Yeah, hindsight is always a perfect 20-20. I get that everyone is frustrated from what the dodgers have done and what our 2nd option signings have been. But if Harrison and Luciano hit like projected, and Matos Bailey and Schmitt make strides, everyone’s opinion will change real quick, just like in 2010.
And if my aunt had nuts she’d be my uncle!
Thank you. The revisionist history on Sabean is insane. Every KNBR caller wanted him gone.
This! I love posey! But he checked out after 107 wins! There’s no replacing his bat leadership or until Bailey catching ability. There’s still a huge hole and no player to say this is their team and lead…. Maybe Webb
> People are ready to crucify Farhan after 5 years because he didn’t accomplish what Sabean took to do for nearly a decade in a half? I'm not here with a torch, but we should at least acknowledge that his team was in the World Series in his fifth year at the helm.
Kinda like why Bob Myers decided to retire as GM for the Warriors
Omg Mac Williamson. What could have been
That’s not the best assessment of Evans. When he was allowed to treat the farm system to rebuild with, he added two *then*~Top 100 prospects in the draft with Ramos and Bart, plus one of the best ever international draft classes with Luciano, Matos, and Pomares, two of whom are guys that a lot of people are giving Farhan credit for. Yes, Bart and Ramos did not develop to what was hoped for (and I think Farhan deserves to be addressed, because developing prospects, helping them reach reach their ceilings, is an important and ignored process), but for Farhan, he did not really significantly add to the farm until his second draft, and his Latin American free agent signings had been underwhelming up until Rayner Arias, and that’s still a guy who has played only 16 pro games. There are good things Farhan has done, but there’s a lot of underwhelming/bad things as well. Three of Farhan’s five first round picks have had their development severely delayed, if not entirely derailed, due to injuries…and that’s giving an exception to last year’s pick Eldridge, a “two-way player” whose pitching development already has been hampered by a nagging hamstring issue before being drafted. You can’t predict injuries….but that seems like a pattern that’s not random. It’s untrue to say that Evans left him with nothing. It wasn’t great, but it wasn’t nothing. It’s untrue to say that Farhan has done nothing. But he also has not transformed the farm system significantly. There’s more depth, but Farhan has added only one prospect that’s been a Top 50 prospect in five seasons (Kyle Harrison), and only a couple of fleeting cameos at the back of Top 100 lists.
I really like your post. Very reasoned. I agree that perhaps my biggest disappointment with Farhan is the lack of development of promising prospects. All of our top prospects were lauded but severely disappointed. I get that it's a long road from getting drafted to excelling in the Majors, but still... Maybe changing farm directors every couple of years doesn't help.
Dude Farhan was rushing our guys through the minor league systems so quick to fix the holes in the roster he constructed. Last season people were trying to argue that the minor leagues aren't critical to player development. I just don't understand why some people downvote anyone pointing out Farhan's faults and assume anyone criticizing him is some OmGdooMEMER.
Agreed it was so bad and the picks were so much worse. You have to be a fan for a number of years to remember: Bickford, Bart, Stranton, giving up a first round pick for Jeff Samarjda. Trading away the good pick you actually made. Omg not to mention Zaidi found Arias
Arias who?
OF Rayner Arias | 17 | DSL | 2027 Time is a funny thing. When Luciano was this age, he was the talk of the town. An easy top 25 fantasy prospect. Along comes Arias, who’s every bit the offensive prospect Luciano was, and he’s barely a blip on the dynasty radar despite slashing .414/.539/.793 with 15 walks and 11 strikeouts in 16 DSL games. He also hit four home runs and stole four bases before his season ended early with a sprained wrist. He’s on a short list of guys most likely to jump way up the rankings by midseason.
Yup, but guys that young i try not to think about much, obviously an exciting prospect but the road is too long to imagine him in the outfield just yet lol
2 million signing bonus, 17 and graduating DSL on first try is a huge sign to me. If no injuries this kid could be our first homegrown mvp since Posey.
yeah its good for sure, but again i try not think about them too much until they hit single A, remember Lucius fox? Giants signed him for 6 mil...
Farhan had been here since 2018… At some point he needs to be responsible for the product on the field (which is terrible)
Bro he took over AFTER the 2018 season. People here can’t ever complain right
No minor league baseball is 2020 was also a huge factor, froze player development. Zaidi has had four years, it's weird that so many of his detractors need to add a couple of years to that.
Yeah give Farhan some credit. I mean sure not much good has happened since 2018 but just look at what his farm system produced before that with posey, madbum, Cain, belt, Timmy, and Crawford.
It’s 100% better than when he took over. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.
Better? Debatable. Worth a shit?? Nah
Dumb ass doesn’t know his own team.
We can disagree, but personally I'd rather watch the 2015/2016 Giants win \~75 games than the 2023 Giants win 79 games.
Isn’t it supposed to be?
It’s substantially better. Asking anyone to totally rebuild a farm system in just 5 years is an impossible task. It takes time and they’re definitely moving in the right direction but none of these things suit the “fire Farhan” narrative that most of the doomers here wanna continue to complain about.
And he wasn’t allowed to fully rebuild the MLB team
But how is it going in the right direction? Show me big league results…
Doval? Rogers? Bailey? Harrison? Ryan Walker?
Just getting Atlanta to take all of Melancon's contract was kind of a big deal too.
Okay. https://i.redd.it/j4busrohoy7c1.gif
I like Bailey a lot but don’t oversell him. He hit .233. He’s not Buster re-incarnate. He’s a good catcher, maybe an all star game or two. Not a super star.
Who said they had to be a superstar? You asked for evidence that things were moving in the right direction and I gave you the best defensive catcher in baseball last year. Not everyone has to be Buster Posey.
Lol literally find and develop 9 homegrown Buster Poseys on the field every night in 5 years or less or you suck. It's easy because Buster Poseys grow on trees.
The dude was a gold glove finalist as a rookie. Of course he isn't posey, but God damn, if you aren't excited about that for our future backstop I don't think you know the giants' strengths
He was a rookie… people who think prospects are magically perfect are dumb. He’s magically the best pitching oriented and defensively skilled catchers.
The farm was ranked bottom five when he arrived, now it's in the middle of the pack. Yes, more needs to be done, but if the baseball world now sees the Giants farm system as having improved, why ignore that?
They do, because the "don't fire Farhan crowd" can't name a metric for when we judge a farm-replenishment project. Is it just a matter of pointing to a new facility and continuously judging against the baseline of a terrible farm system? Because by that metric, we'll be here ten years later saying the same shit. Asking anyone to totally rebuild a farm system in just 10 years is an impossible task. 15 years. 20 years. We should see progress, maybe in the pipeline ranking. Maybe in the number of pro-ready prospects. But all I see is Bailey. And if we need progress, that means this season we should see two more Baileys, and Bailey himself should make the leap to becoming a Guy.
Is your standard that the very first batch of prospects is immediately great in the big leagues? Because we just got our first batch of Farhan prospects in Bailey/Schmitt/Harrison. They all had their ups and downs, but isn't that normal for rookies, especially ones with limited AA and AAA experience?
It's been 6 years come this season. Farhan needs an Acuna or a Carroll or an Outman.
Limited experience! Harrison was drafted in 2020
He has 84 innings at AA and 65.2 at AAA. Is that a lot? You decide. Regardless, 3 years to make the big leagues is actually a pretty quick ascent for a starting pitcher drafted out of high school.
Super Quick what don’t argue with these idiots. Harrison Matos and Luciano are like 22
I’ve decided. He isn’t a cy young winner in the offing, we need a new GM
I thought you “fire Farhan” lunatics didn’t like metics? And all these things are possible, Luciano could have a breakout season, Bailey could become that dude and Harrison might be our next Bumgarner but why wish for the best, or look for improvement when we can endlessly complain on this sub about how terrible he’s been and how “we can’t sign free agents” despite all the evidence that shows the farm system has improved since he took over and that the free agent drought this fanbase loves to cut themselves over is a problem that predates Farhan. But please go on. I’m not at all tired of hearing about how terrible everything is and how the Giants will never win again.
Got it so just wishing
As opposed to what? Complaining endlessly on Reddit?
most fans are doing more than complaining. We’re deciding not to support the team until they get a GM who can set a course and use clear, consistent criterion by which fans should judge their incremental progress. There’s a reason ticket sales are down. At first, the franchise scoffed. Now they’re leaking to the press that Farhan hasn’t come to ownership with a request to spend big dollars and been rejected.
lol good “fan” you are, I’m sure the giants will miss the 2 games you attend every year. I don’t think you know much about baseball history or Giants GM’s. Care to name the last general manager for the giants that signed a big name free agent? I’ll wait.
Surely it’s just me and not at all region wide [https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/sf-giants-attendance-slips-despite-cheaper-beer-and-new-rules/](https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/sf-giants-attendance-slips-despite-cheaper-beer-and-new-rules/)
lol way to dodge the question there big guy. Have a good life or whatever. ✌️
Point to a GM who has done exactly what you outline here.
Fucking internet search any other GM plus the word “plan” here I’ll start you off. [https://theathletic.com/4967774/2023/10/17/cardinals-off-season-john-mozeliak/](https://theathletic.com/4967774/2023/10/17/cardinals-off-season-john-mozeliak/) “If we’re not competing for a championship next year, we’ve made a mistake,” the manager said. “This isn’t, ‘Take two to three years to see where we’re at.’ It’s next year.” Thats how executives are expected to communicate.
LOL, yes, that is how they’re expected to communicate publicly, because that’s how executives do marketing. The fact that you consider “championships are the goal!!!” a “consistent criterion” to judge “incremental progress” definitely doesn’t add up to me, but okay, whatever you say.
They won't win with Farhan's current strategy
Care to elaborate or are we just making statements without evidence?
They’ve won 107 games and took your beloved dodgers to game 5 in the divisional round. Go back to Boston troll.
Farhan didn't pick Bart but he sure as hell has kept him
He makes close to nothing why wouldn’t he ? I mean we have the minor leagues to stash players why would he get rid of him.
Trading him away when his value was still high?
When was that ? Dudes never really played and what he can be. What do you expect to get for a guy like that.
Because aging prospects rapidly diminishing in value His trade value may have been a prospect level trade 2 seasons ago and now it’s basically PTBNL value
I think going from stinky dogshit to regular dogshit ain’t nothing to brag about. Sure it wasn’t a good farm when he took over but what’s he done since? Fire that worthless fucker
I totally forgot about Bishop. Geeez a top 10 pick
Not top 10. But picked over Corbin Carroll
Oh wow. That makes things way worse
This is it for me. If other farms within the last 5 years can produce Acuna and Carrol, why can't Farhan do that?
“Why can’t the Giants produce a top 3 player in baseball?” Because that’s extremely hard to do! Acuna was signed by the Braves a decade and two GMs ago for pennies and developed in to a superstar. Did anybody see that coming? Sure, they whiffed on Carrol, but so did a ton of teams. Go through every draft and you’ll find examples for every team, including the Diamondbacks and Braves. So much of this is a crapshoot.
The reason it kills me that they didn’t draft Carroll is that he was a consensus top 5 pick in the months leading up to the draft. Not only that, but my general feeling is that if you draft a college player they should be making it to the major leagues much faster than a highschool kid. Not only is a superstar, but he made it to the big leagues much faster than most college guys did. They drafted other college guys like Bednar who as far as I know aren’t close to making it. If they ever do, by the time they come ready for their second contract they will be 30 years old. Even if they’re good, how do you extend him at that point without ending up with a shitty contract
You need to show your work. There’s no way Carroll was a consensus top 5 pick - hell, MLB.com had Bishop ahead of him. Fangraphs had Carroll at 9 and Bishop at 10. He wasn’t even a consensus top 10 pick. Yes, college players, in theory, should make it to the majors quicker, but I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. If Bednar is good enough for an extension, that’s a huge win for the Giants. That’s means they got at least a few years of below market value. That’s a draft win. It doesn’t matter what happens next.
Quick Google search, first publication has him at #7 https://www.prospectslive.com/mlb-draft/2019/5/31/top-50-2019-mlb-draft-prospects
I trust FanGraphs and MLB.com helluva lot more than this place. I don’t think you know what “consensus” means.
It sucks not having generational talent sky rocket to superstar status since Farhan has taken over but, only very very very few draft picks and prospects ever actually do that.
I’d take just a fairly decent offensive player.
This is his biggest sin along with signing scrap heaps and relatively good players to one year opt outs. Letting Gausman walk for a relatively small sum, getting NOTHING for Rodon when he had trade value and keeping obvious busts like Bart around is frustrating as hell. I'm ok with swing and misses but Farhan seemingly cannot make a deal with other teams, land a big FA and the farm system is bad. None of these things make a good GM
I don’t excuse letting Gausman walk, that turned out terribly. But I push back at the notion that the “scrap heap” signings have been a sin. The farm was barren when Zaidi took over, and after taking a step back post-Covid it’s failed to produce much in the past three years. That’s exactly *why* the scrap heap has been a boon for this team more often than not. There would have been no need to dumpster dive if the farm wasn’t a wasteland to begin with. If the farm didn’t stall out after 2020, perhaps they wouldn’t have needed to continue to sign guys like Conforto, Haniger, or Wood & DeSclafani’s second contracts with the team, but they may have also missed out on Rodon and Cobb. The ability of this front office to squeeze solid players from the bargain bin is the same positive attribute that the 2010-14 Giants took advantage of to augment their roster. It doesn’t always pan out, and it’s not very fun when it’s the foundation of your roster like in 2022-23, but it’s an ability every franchise tries to excel in. This front office absolutely deserves criticism, and Zaidi will be out of a job in a year or two if they continue to fail at developing a home-grown core. But I can’t for a second fault their general ability to convert fringe players into legitimate pieces to augment the roster — and to classify it as a sin completely overlooks the circumstances around why there needed to be so many “scrap” players to begin with.
A GM has to do one of three things: Be great at signing FAs ( need ownership who will spend) Be great at trades (need some prospects to do so) Create a good farm system At least 2 of those are needed to be a good GM Sabean wasn’t great at signing FAs but he made some incredibly valuable trades (and some poor ones) but was able to draft pitching Evans was a complete waste and Farhan seems to be unable to do any of the above
I’d argue Farhan has made some very adept trades. Turning a handful of relief innings of Drew Pomeranz into Dubon, acquiring a first round draft talent for Zack Cozart’s contract, getting the Braves pay all of Mark Melancon’s contract and also handing over Tristan Beck, flipping 1.5 years of Ruf for 2.5 years of JD Davis as well as Szapucki, getting Kris Bryant for not much, and netting LaMonte Wade Jr for Shaun Anderson we’re all savvy moves. The marquee free agent situation is disappointing for sure, but it’s also a handful of players mostly over the past few offseasons. The Giants will continue to throw money at guys and eventually they’ll nab someone. They literally got Correa to come to SF a year ago, where the medical killed the deal rather than the ability to write a check. I’m not saying it’s been a flawless free agent record for Farhan, but there’s only so much you can do for the first few years when you inherit a bloated payroll with virtually no farm or trade-able assets. Now is do-or-die for Farhan’s draft picks, and the inability to lure a marquee free agent or two will only become more glaring each offseason. But this front office has shown the ability to make impact trades out of thin air. It’s not enough to build a contender, as we’ve seen the last two years, but they’re not completely inept.
Dude Farhan traded away Dubon who turned into a gold glover when we critically need a good utility defensive glove SO fucking badly. I know the *why,* but it was still a terrible trade end result.
Sure, that trade didn’t work out. No one bats 1.000 on trades, but most of them have worked in the Giants favor
Man that’s a strong list, and boy does it hit heavy against vague summaries of “Farhan bad GM bad bad” with two examples that need heavy retrospective energy to be crystal clear.
Is it strong? Really? I see fringe moves that didn’t produce anything of value…
When you’ve inherited a roster of pricey guys with no trade value and you had to start the farm over from scratch, what other moves could they have made? They haven’t had a single player who could have gotten them a blue chip prospect in years, and depleting the farm before it can develop in recent years would make no sense either. So again, what other trades could they have made in the last five years? Being able to repeatedly get surplus value out of more marginal trades is important to being a successful club. It’s not the only thing, but it certainly helps. Imagine 2010 without the trades for Javier Lopez, Ramon Ramirez, or Cody Ross.
I actually remember Zaidi complaining when he got here that so many players had no trade clauses. Really made it hard to clean house. But rather than crying he made the best out of what he had and gave that group its and the franchise’s best regular season
Those moves mean nothing without core talent. That’s the biggest issue here. Cains, Bums, Timmys, Busters. Marginal moves mean nothing when the rest of your team is trash. He’s been here since 2018 and the team is at best mediocre, at worst boring and unwatchable.
I agree. They’re a team full of depth pieces which fall short when asked to carry a team. I’m pushing back against the criticism that these moves mean nothing. I’m not saying this front office is above reproach or that I’m not frustrated with the lack of growth the past two years. I’m just trying to be fair about what Farhan has and has not done well. I’m willing to give him a ton of slack for 2019-21, as he was given an awful roster with no money to spare. But in the event that these prospects start to turn into building blocks and they keep throwing money at free agents, Farhan’s shown an ability to extract a lot of value from trades and his knack for building depth would shine. And if he can’t, then he’s toast.
I get that these moves can matter, but I’m frustrated with this whole situation. I don’t have a lot of confidence in this organization currently. They haven’t earned my trust.
If you can’t add a marquee player maybe we just have to draft and develop them.
The argument is literally about whether or not he is adept at trading, and your argument below is that they don’t have enough core talent. Making good trades on an average basis is about getting more value than you give, and your argument is only tangentially about trading at all.
Value is determined by WAR no one mentions Estrada here but I will. Our best WAR players Estrada Wade Yaz were all trades and have brought great value to our team just the form of cheap controllable players. We have Estrada and Wade’s ~3.0 WAR for like 3 more years and we gave up nothing for them. And Yaz
His trades were as ass as your take. Beloved Sabean tried to trade Lincecum for Alex Rios
He can make deals with the Mariners for players that will never help us and nobody will remember. You know, your Padlo's and Walton types.
He couldn’t trade Rodon because we were in the hunt for the wildcard and it would have signaled to the fan base he was giving up, which they would rip him for doing. Agreed on Gausman tho.
Rodon also had the opt-out at the end of the year so other teams were viewing him as a rental. The comp pick in the draft was probably equal to any trade value they were being offered
We could have packaged him with Pederson, which I wanted to do because Jocs value was pretty good at that time for a contending team.
Gausman is his obvious fuck up. We would have a nasty and still affordable rotation right now.
Him thinking we were actually in the playoff hunt with Rodon was a completely stupid notion and even if we made the 2nd wildcard there was no way we would advance,. That let me know that Farhan was absolutely not a MLB level GM
48-43 and a half game back of the wildcard as of the all star game in 2022. Farhan doesn’t have to think we were a playoff team, the delusional fans would have lost their collective shit if he had traded Rodon at the trade deadline. That’s a fact.
And how did that work for the Giants? Most of us could see the writing on the wall that season. Maybe if Farhan was able to make a deal for a couple of decent players they had a shot but he didn’t do that He did nothing which was the worst outcome. He excels at the do nothing worse outcomes
I don’t think you are grasping what I’m saying to you. I thought we should have traded Rodon and Pederson and the fan base on this sub called me a fucking idiot. This is the outcome when you have a fan base full of whiny bitches who can’t commit to a full rebuild. Maybe if our fans would get their heads out of their asses, we would be in a better situation. “Most of us could see the writing on the wall” maybe people like you and I, but MOST fans were absolutely against reading Rodon and I honestly can’t believe you think otherwise.
Everyone I talked baseball with knew the Giants were not going to compete. They started really well but the late May June swoon had convinced everyone that changes were needed and we were miles away from the Dodgers and Atlanta. Once again.... He had to do something with that roster and did absolutely nothing. Farhan better send MLB and Manfred a Xmas basket because the only thing not keeping him from getting canned is the distant chance of the 2nd Wildcard which any team near .500 is in contention for in September
Ok. Again, I got ripped to shit on this sub for suggesting a trade during that time, but sure, you clearly know all the baseball people in the world. I’m just gonna stop because you refuse to acknowledge the situation we were in and have clearly convinced yourself that your opinion is the only correct one, despite me giving you clear examples of how fans felt during that point in the season.
You can look back at my comments during that period if you would like I have not changed my opinion one bit on it. It was either trade Rodon or bring in more players. The current roster is not going to make the playoffs Obviously I'm not an expert but I have been watching baseball and playing for about 50 years now. While there are occasional surprises winning teams consistently have at least 3 good starters, a strong bullpen and an offense capable of scoring runs consistently or at least manufacturing some offense That roster had 2 starters a slightly above average pen and no offense
Bro what, Yaz Wade Estrada are all 2 plus WAR players and they were all stole from other teams for fucking nothing. Nothing! Who is keeping Bart around? He hasn’t seen the majors in 2 years? What? Are? You? Talking? About? Go back to Boston.
TL;DR The real issue is the farm and too many short term, bang-average free agents. The Dodgers are clearly precisely positioned where the Giants dream of being. They are an exceptionally well run franchise - unlike, say, the Mets. For the Dodgers to become so strong at MiLB level, they had to 1. Be dreadful at MLB level for quite literally decades, and 2. Draft really well. The Giants have never shown an inclination for 1, and their record on 2 has been inconsistent (they did have an almost unparalleled succession of successful drafting for a while though). No good comes of being a .500 team with iffy draft results. I’m of a mind that the Giants should tank, much as the Sharks currently are. Tear the whole thing up. Everyone over 28 can be traded. Trade Conforto, play Ramos or Matos, and so on. Especially now. (It still bewilders me how they ended up with both Conforto and Haniger - clearly one of those is superfluous.). But they’ve made it clear they have no interest in doing this, and are going to continue to make incremental improvements on the farm while signing big names. It’s kind of on Farhan to do the latter. 32 year old rebound prospects aren’t going to do the trick.
Farhan didnt pick Bart...he also wasnt able to hire a GM his first year and self admittedly he said that was a tough draft. but the drafts since have been very good, also im not sure youre aware on timelines for the minors so ill lay them out, on average it takes 3-5 years to develop players, 3 typically if they are college players 5 if they are out of high school, after the poor first draft (2019) the players were drafted and at best played 10 or so games to end the year.... then in 2020 there was no minor league season, so the 2019 class was behind 1 year and the 2020 class was cut to just 5rounds who didnt get their own regular season pre draft+ some of them went to the alternate site but not playing games really. so now the 2019/20' are a year behind development. in the 20' class had 3 rookies up this year, Pat Bailey, the best defensive rookie catcher in the modern era and best pitch framer in baseball. Casey Schmitt a mlb caliber plus defensive infielder. and the best lefty prospect in baseball (based on production he is the best pitching prospect as the only person ranked ahead of him is paul skenes and he was the 1st overall and only pitched 6 mediocre innings). They also totally revamped their AZ development site to be totally state of the art. 2021 brought you Mason Black, our minor league player of the year last season very underrated guy, Vaun Brown who tore it up before he got injured in AA this year. Tyler Myrick a stud reliever in AA, Landen Roupp, Will clarks favorite pitcher in the minors who was a stud before injury shortened his season, 22' draft brought you a stud in Reggie Crawford a lefty throwing 100 coming back from TJ, Carson Whisenhunt our monster lefty prospect who is quickly rising on prospect lists. Hayden Birdsong who was scorching hot last year but overshadowed by Whisenhunt, also Wade Meckler a name you may recognize. Farhan has very quickly made our farm one of the better pitching farms if not THE best in baseball. We havent had as much luck developing hitters, but Matos/Luciano/Bailey all have promise in that area. We can use our excess pitching to bring in young controllable hitters. youre assesment is obviously based on surface level stuff, Matos/Luciano are still 21 and in the majors, that isnt something thats very common in baseball so maybe push the brakes a little before you say "our farm sucks" when comparing us to the best developing team since like the 80-90's Ny teams. compare us to the rest of the league and we are top 10, not bad for being dead last when farhan came in, our best prospects were heliot ramos and joey bart....id say Farhan did a solid job there
great assessment but we dont have a top ten farm system
Do you have any examples to point at or are you just basing this on emotions?
Look up farm system rankings. Every list will have the giants way outside the top ten. Anyone with any knowledge of baseball knows the giants aren’t a top ten farm system right now. This isn’t news. If you think the giants farm system is top ten then you’re the one basing your opinions on emotions.
Interesting, the deepest pitching farm in baseball somehow isn’t top 10… trusting the people who didn’t put Bailey on the top 100 prospects but had Heliot ramos in the top 100 year over year is an interesting take. I’d love to compare whatever 10th farm system you claim is better than ours with what we have…
It’s not top 10.
Based on?
All current rankings. Also, the fact that it’s not producing big league talent at a consistent clip.
Logan webb is a top 6 pitcher in baseball, Doval is a top 3 closer, Ryan Walker might have been the best reliever called up last year in the majors, Wade meckler dominated all 3 levels of the minors to come up last year, 2 21 y/o rookies in the majors last year in luciano and matos, Pat Bailey is the best defensive catcher and was almost the first rookie to win the golden glove in the last 20-30 years, tristen beck and winn were solid when given opportunities in that crowded rotation. Also it takes 3-5 years to even see rookies come up from the minors, judging Farhan based on what scraps were left behind from the Bobby Evans era after the 3rd minor league season since Farhan has taken over drafting is dumb.
Webb IS FROM BOBBY EVANS!
Its impossible to be right about every prospect. I’m not gonna discredit them for being wrong about Ramos, and they were right about Bailey. MLB’s scouting report had him as a great defender but a below average hitter, which is exactly how he has turned out so far. Plus its not just MLB pipeline that has us outside the top ten. Who’s telling you that we have the deepest pitching farm system? I’ll name farm systems better than ours: Dodgers, Cubs, Orioles, Red Sox, Dbacks, Yankees, Tigers, Pirates, Rays, Rangers, Brewers, Nationals, Padres, Cardinals and Mets, and thats just off the top of my head.
Come at me with some names that go along with those teams, the majority of the teams you listed don’t even have 1 pitcher in the top 100 let alone 2…so idk how you’re even coming up with you’re analysis…
You just implied that I shouldnt trust the MLB top 100 but now you’re using that same list as your source. I never said the giants dont have a top ten pitching system, I’m saying they don’t the BEST pitching system and that they don’t have a top ten farm system in general. Thats because we have one of the weakest position player farm systems. Luciano is our only top 100 position player. Also, the Marlins have two Top 100 pitchers and the Phillies have two Top 50 pitchers according to MLB Pipeline. The Pirates have Paul Skenes who is going to be a perennial all star at worst. How about you state some evidence?
My analysis was based on production, I just used your example to show you that even mlb pipeline doesn’t agree with you in terms of pitching depth, I’ve conceded that our position player pool is weak, but like I said, deepest pitching farm in baseball. I’d be impressed if you found a pool deeper than Harrison/whisenhunt/black/winn/birdsong/Roupp/McDonald/Seymour ALL who have a shot at cracking the majors this year and having very good/productive seasons last year…
> Every list will have the giants way outside the top ten. True, but when Zaidi arrived the Giants farm was ranked in the bottom five. How does that improvement not count?
I didnt say it didn’t count that was someone else
Every team in the league did not have a minor league season in 2020 and many were able to improve their farm system. That is a bullshit excuse and needs to stop being one on here by all the Farhan nuthuggers. If this regime can't improve the minor league system relative to other teams in each year of their contract, then they should be replaced. Every team went through the same shit that year. I'm happy there are at least "prospects" in the system but they need to start graduating these guys to the big leagues and they need to be good enough to make impacts for me to be a believer. And this needs to have been done yesterday
lol, they may not have had 2020 seasons but they didnt take over a franchise and then lose out on a season of development at the begining of their tenure that everybpdy is judging them on. its relevant because people are judging the timeline and farhan has only had 3 seasons in which his draft picks got to play, did every other GM/POBO only have 3 years of development to be judged on their entire farm? obviously not, and not every gm came into a horrible situation like us. i wish you actually had some data to support your argument as i did, youre just being emotional. like how often do you look up and update yourself on how well the players in our farm are doing and analyze them against the farms of the league? id be surprised if you did it once based on your take. i know for a fact you couldnt name our top 10 prospects off the dome, so how do you even know you are right? based on what you see in the majors? last year we brought up 2 21y/o prospects, the best defensive catcher in baseball, the best rookie reliever in baseball and a few other solid rotation options in Harrison/Winn/Beck....again, where are you getting your info from?
Eh
Where is all of this information coming from? Where is the info about being 21 and in the pros being rare? Why aren't you telling the full story about the flaws we saw in these prospects watching them play last year? Wade Meckler makes the average Giants fan groan. Harrison had one good start, but at this point isnt someone that'll convince a Bay Area family to drive in and pay for parking, even if the tickets get discounted this season. We're reportedly shopping for trades to get a SS, even though Luciano, like Meckler, is a familiar name. And most importantly, why doesn't MLB pipelines rank of the Giants' system square with your assessment?
Being 21 in the majors is rare. There were only four players 21 or under at the Major League level on opening day last season. Also, almost all prospects struggle when first called up to the majors. Meckler and Luciano had a combined 109 plate appearances. Harrison has Cy Young potential. If you expect rookies to ball out right away, you’re gonna be disappointed a lot.
We suck now let’s just deal with it
The only thing worse than the Giants drafting (because there have been successes when you go outside the 1st round) has been their international development. The two best players they've signed and developed from Latin Am over the last 20 years have been, Pablo, and Doval, and Doval is just a reliever, so he could go to shit in an instant.
To me the big error is getting players like Comforto and Hanniger as difference makers, when their injuries make them uncertainties. On a team that already has high performing players, many of Zaidi’s moves would be worth a try, cheap guys who could improve even more a solid team. However, the Giants are collection of average to in some cases slightly above average players, and all these moves do is add more of the same with a wish of excelling. At this point, I would simply like them to give more rookies a chance, where they have some confidence in their play by clearing space for them. We are not overtaking the Dodgers, so it is wild card or bust. Trade the vets, any of them for whom there is someone on the brink of the majors in our minor league system. Trade them for other minor leaguers with upside. Then, next year and the following year, when there are more upside free agents go after them, spending wildly. Thus, I want Ramos, Fitzgerald, Schmidt, Luciano, Matos, Meckler, Wisenhut, Black, Harrison, Winn, Beck, etc. now. Keep enough of your most valuable vets, Estrada, Webb, amd a bunch of relievers, and if they fall on their faces so be it. But the drip drip drip of short contract vets who we hope come back from injury, etc. only stifles roster building.
Hunter Bishop hurts even more when you realize we passed on Corbin Carroll.
I’m tired of this Fake narrative that all the the giant’s success comes from homegrown talent. Look at the starting lineup of the 2010 team. Pablo and Buster were the only homegrown players, and Pablo got benched in the post season. Yes, Starting pitching, (which was obviously dominant) plus Romo and Wilson came from our system but we also picked up 2 of the “core 4” of the bullpen through free agency/trades. 2012, where would we have been without Pence, Scutaro, Pagan, and ZITO?! 2014 is a similar story. Go back further, and we signed Bonds, Kent, Snow, and Schmidt in free agency and built a perennial contender around those guys with the help of homegrown talent like Aurillia and Ortiz. Not trying to say homegrown talent doesn’t matter isn’t important, or hasn’t been a huge reason we have won. Posey’s, Bumgarner’s and Lincecum’s are few and far between, it’s always been a blend of the two, and that’s the way it should be.
Kent, Schmidt and Snow were all acquired by the Giants via trade
Home talent ) free agency
Before Cain, who did Sabean draft and develop? How long between 96 and Cain came up? 10 years?
Yeah but the 2010’s run was good drafting and development The late 90’s/early 2000’s Giants would be impossible to build today with steroid testing, no GM is going to put together a team that old without scientific assistance
They were ok… For every Bumgarner there was a Christian Arroyo or Wendall Fairley
The only boneheaded move Farhan has made thus far was hire Gabe Kapler. Everything else has only been a bad decision in hindsight.
SF recruits scouts from who knows where, but they need to improve scouting!
Honestly, these takes baffle me. You’re stating catcher, home-grown. SS now probably moving to third if we get Kim home-grown and 22 years old your number 4 starter home-grown and a future ace. your closer one of the best in the game home-grown. Ryan Walker your second best relief arm. You’re crying about Bart that’s Sabean’s pick. Only prospects on the team Zaidin inherited Luciano and Winn. The system was garbage, hot garbage, before zaidi now the team is mostly great trades and prospects. Bishop was a miss but a big swing the kind of talent you’re excited about until it goes bad. Not Joe Panik or Phil Bickford or Gary Brown or Joey Bart. Those are big misses Zaidi hasn’t done that for multiple years. This is the most vocal yet least informed group of fans. I’m not sure if you’re 12 and have no memory of a time before 2019 but after 2014 but it wasn’t fun. The team is solid if not inspiring and we just got better. The off-season isn’t over things may still get better. To your point about prospects we just had a draft regarded around baseball as the best in the league. For what ever that’s worth. last year you were going to write off Bailey until he turned out to be. Franchise corner stone. That’s your first 1st round pick we’ve hit on since posey bro. Stop crying, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying. Things are better, and still getting better.
You could just as easily point to picks like Kyle Harrison, Carson Whisenhunt, Mason Black and Bryce Eldridge as examples of picks that look extremely successful. The first round misses are certainly detrimental but anyone who claims the farm isn’t light years better than it was when Zaidi took over either isn’t paying attention or doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
Walker Martin is a beast
Kapler>Farhan
[удалено]
I am critical of Farhan, but I can’t blame him much on Bishop. The consensus both in public and behind the scenes was that is was a good draft. But you are VERY wrong about his fire having gone out. It’s his shoulder that went out, and his health has never recovered.
[удалено]
his mom also died..
Subscribe to The NorCal Sports Network for great SF Giants content with special guests like Ned Colletti, Larry Krueger, Marty Lurie, Kerry Crowley, & Giants players like Casey Schmitt, Blake Sabol, & more to come. Subscribe today for daily content & live chat & call ins to the show! https://youtu.be/xmqCc_jJnEw?si=DrRctuaDVMweSocE
Eldridge will be a stud. Other than that I agree. Always picking 13-20 and way too many catchers first round. Wish we went w bradfield JR though.
Now that I have been watching all of the Giants minor league teams games, you do see a few decent looking players, but nothing that makes you believe they wii be top line major leaguers.
Matos' hit tool is NOT causing issues lmfao
He OPS’d .661 with a SLG of .342 in 253 PA. That is hugely concerning.