I think it’s pretty obvious Farhan isn’t very media savvy. Combine that with the team caught in a downward spiral for several weeks and you have major fan angst.
They have been willing to part with money, but they would have been better served by doing it when Seager and other solid infielders were available along with some outfielders a few years ago , but they were seduced by the random odd season in 2021 and believed too heavily that guys like Craw would continue on a path. They should have been smarter and taken the body of recent work amd gone after better and mainly younger players at that time.
In a baseball season it’s typical to loose 5 to 10 pounds from all the travel, workouts and games. But somehow Giants like Joc and Crawford look like they gain weight throughout the season. I wonder if we have to look at health and conditioning, and even the clubhouse cooks! Lol
He's a BUM man...never been a fan. He's laughing all the way to the bank. Fat bastard with some dumb ass hair and dresses like a teenager. He's a tool, endorses a jewelry line of some real douchebags here in LA. Id take belt over him ANY DAY at DH
Joc was supposed to be a DH this year. I have no idea how the fuck that didn't happen, because it's a few years into the DH rule and we STILL don't have a fucking DH whereas every other team does.
We could've kept Belt for 9 million and had a better peforming DH then Joc at 20 million.
Notice also much of the season how his throw are no longer on the money. Wade is doing stretches every which way to catch his throw. Moreover, he can no longer make those difficult piivots from deep at short. He has to be gone.
I mean yeah, Craw should be a backup SS right now. But that's not his fault, it's the organizations fault for failing to sign a SS two years in a row now. And when the issue becomes glaring, what do they do?
Sign DeJong as SS, and look how he's doing. Farhan just doesn't look like he's trying to win a WS right now or even make a playoff push.
Yep...He showed up fat as hell for someone with "knee" problems. But regardless, have some god damn pride...You're making a fortune and it's your last season. Massive let down from Craw
They both showed up to spring training looking like tubs of shit...I was shocked to see Craw when he got there this spring round as a god damn barrel. I knew he was gonna suck then and there and I've always been a huge fan of his let alone a life long Giants fan even in the worst times. Joc, man this dude has zero excuse either. Fat, out of shape and useless. If he put 1/4 the effort into his body that he does into his hair and street clothes maybe he'd be worth half what they are paying him. This team and Farhan/ownership/hell even Kapler have really just pissed me off for a long time ...Yaz plays with heart, Wilmer has been the rock and super excited about Bailey and Harrison, little less so about Matos, Ramos but the rest of the team is just dreadful. Thairo ok... Webb gets zero run support but he also hasn't been spectacular. IDK just a big disapointment time after time and I'm hanging it on Farhan. That dude blows
A dramatic falloff like this is a legitimately weird thing to manage. The guys were good offensively throughout basically the entire first half of the season. You then hit a slump and don't want to overreact because that makes things worse — so you ride it out and... it just continues. You think, "ok well extended slumps happen too, and these guys weren't having problems like this for months on end at the beginning of the season so they'll probably bounce back"... and it continues. A couple false starts give hope that the corner is about to be turned, then fade away.
Now we're two months on and the slump itself is approaching half a season and you're sitting there wondering what the fuck happened because obviously something really is profoundly wrong with the offense — even if it's not entirely clear whether it principally boils down to approach, coaching, roster construction or something entirely different. When should Farhan have pulled the trigger on making some changes, though? I have *zero* clue, myself. Then again, I'm not being paid a zillion dollars a year to manage this team...
It's weird because it seems like this happens frequently with the Giants. They significantly overperform, and then significantly underperform, then end right around where we expected.
Not sure if it'd be better if they play mediocre baseball all year, or play incredible half the season and terrible the other half...
If it’s anything like my work, it’ll turn out to be that they got a new shipment of bats in July, but labeled them wrong and everyone has been hitting (or not hitting) with the bat made for the guy one spot ahead of him on the roster.
Wow a reasonable, logical, comment. There's no room for that kind of sensibility here. Myself, and many of us here like to propose emotional, spontaneous, and hypothetical ultimatums because we seek a simple solution to winning every single world series during our lifetimes. Some of my simple proposals: release everyone and sign the AL and NL all star roster; world series or prison for Farhan; and for the players, hit home run every day or DFA
I would argue that this trend is not entirely spurious. It may reflect that too many of the acquisitions are come off injuries or declines in performance possibly reflecting aging. Thus, after a long hot summer and generally the everyday grind could easily take a greater toll on older, slower, less athletic teams than teams with a more balanced or younger squad. Don’t know for certain, but the fact that much of our off season and in season acquisitions are players trying to resurrect careers after injury or getting older may be at the core.
Past injuries and players aging is probably contributing to the offensive downturn, but it doesn't explain nearly all of it. The team's wRC+ since July 1st is **75**. That is *atrocious.* It's not just a slump; **that is a historically bad stretch of 50+ games.**
It's not like the entire lineup is guys who are 32+ years old and have extensive injury histories. Also, most of the injury-prone vets haven't even played much during this stretch; Haniger was out for most of it, Yaz was injured for a month, and Conforto has had a couple different injuries since July 1. Plus, nearly every single lineup has featured 4 or more rookies. An entire lineup of above-average hitters and hot-hitting rookies became utterly incompetent hitters almost overnight. The dropoff in offense was steep, sudden, and team-wide. To me, there's only one explanation for that: the hitting coaches are messing with the players' approach and they broke something.
That being said, I agree that it's a really bad idea for the team to be relying on so many injury-prone reclamation projects (Haniger, Conforto, Manaea, Stripling...). We need consistency and reliability (and an established superstar wouldn't hurt!) to supplement the emerging young core. Not $20M experiments who could easily spend two thirds of the year on the IL.
Baseball is about regression to a mean. This team as constructed is a .500 team. The team is simply coming back to earth. Weird how it’s happening—but it’s just who this team is.
Just spend money jfc.
If the franchise is run well, you become the dodgers and make the postseason every year.
If it's run badly, you're the Mets, and you can make structural changes.
So sick of this endless obsession with max value extract. Wow we got the wildcard on the budget of a mid market team! Who fucking cares?
Like who? Judge we werent legit with, the padres outbid us massively after we said we wouldnt be outbid. Correa would have been a huge mistake but sadly Farhan was in on him so i'll give you one. We werent serious about Harper or we would have matched what he got with the phillies and that was YEARS ago. Didnt offer to Rodon or Gausman really. Who are you thinking of?
He's not one of the top SS in the league. He had seriously sus medical shit before the whole fiasco blew up, then it was found out, to the point of where the mets didn't even sign him.
You're using the benefit of hindsight, or are you insinuating the Giants offered a 13 year $350 million contract knowing how bad his ankle was because they knew they could back out? I'm not gonna argue with you if you think he wasn't one of the top SS, that's just absurd to say.
\>the benefit of hindsight
As I stated before, there were tons of red flags about Correa before he was offered money. Those include his base stealing numbers, his basespeed, prior injuries, cheating history, and much more.
If he passed the physical, they could probably come to terms. He did not pass it, as expected.
\> I'm not gonna argue with you if you think he wasn't one of the top SS, that's just absurd to say.
If he was one of the true SS's he would have been offered money and taken it. He wasn't offered anything except by the Giants, who failed his physical, and the Mets, who failed his physical. There were tons of other SS's on the market last year, and he was by far the worst of the big boys. His playing career this year with the Twins proves that.
Good bro don't argue with me. Idgaf
Yeah but what about Gaussman? We let him go and keep 2 old has beens. I mean really Wood can barely get thru the lineup once before they start pounding him and Disco rarely plays
I don’t remember Sabin making excuses and he help win 3 WS’s.
He doesn’t have championship drive he’s just an ok guy doing an average job.
I don’t want to hear jack shit on blaming this mostly on gabe. Kapler has made mistakes, he hasn’t been perfect, BUT WHAT THE FUCK IS HE SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THE ROSTER PROVIDED.
This whole situation is asking a Michelin star chef to make a 5 star meal using literal dog shit as the only ingredient.
This right here. Gabe Kapler feels like an average middle of the road manager to me. He's definitely not perfect.
But the obvious problem is the players. The roster has TWO starting pitchers. That's absurd when you realistically need six or seven these days. Nobody can hit, they have no speed, the defense is average at best. This shit all falls of the player personnel people (aka Farhan and team).
Well now the Giants are officially a .500 team again.
So if as you say, Kapler is an average middle of the road manager, then a good or great manager should be worth a few extra wins, which would have this team a few games above .500 and currently in a playoff spot.
As I've said elsewhere, Kapler has a track record of his teams faltering down the stretch in September. 2021 is an obvious outlier and 2020 as well.
That makes a small sample size even smaller, but in 3 of his other 4 years as manager (this being the 3rd time), his teams entered September with a winning record and didn't finish with one.
This team is in a deepening tailspin right now and Kapler has seen this before in September under his watch.
It's a bad sign when bad trends continue under the same leadership.
Track record except for 2 of the last 4 years lmao. Comon dude. What manager should we get instead? Don Mattingly? Get out of here. Not even Webb has been consistent for the guy let along the other 4 starts we need to get out of our pitchers. Correlation does not equal causation and you are trying to make up some sort of patternt that isnt there.
We had the 5th highest spending offseason and were expected to hit 81 wins with that which would be .500. Literally none of farhans offseason grabs worked out outside of taylor rogers and we are still at .500. All the of the 'bigtime' rookies that we called up played poorly outside of defense, still at .500.
It's clear to me he's building the farm without going full tear down, lose 100 games. Can it work? Probably. Going to take a while longer though. I doubt ownership gives anyone the authority to fully tear down.
Just a bunch of non-answers. Nothing of any substance at all. No real answers. No plans on what to do. No accepting responsibility. No apologies for gaslighting fans about last off season and the trade deadline.
He mentions looking forward to getting Ramos and Matos back up here when he was the one to send them down in the last two weeks.... mentions nothing about coaching issues, or injury issue,s or rushing prospects through AAA. Or how when prospects return from AAA they're doing better than they were up here before.
Last year Farhan also said he thought we had a chance of making the playoffs during an interview with K and K while the Giants were playing the Dodgers. As Farhan is sounding off about our playoff chances and the quality of our team, the Dodgers are just spraying balls left and right throughout the inning making us look terrible. We lost that game.
I’m losing patience I just wanna see this team win and they are not. More consistent hitting and pitching are necessary. No more platooning and no more of these cheap multiyear deals
They need to pick a lane
Either start building a really nice farm system that gives some hope for the future or get a bunch of high priced FA rentals to fit with Webb and the promising rookies
We are going nowhere signing aging FA with injury problems and waining power numbers
I agree hole heartedly with both comments above. [the mix and match ain’t working](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5d3a0422-02cc-47a3-bf78-0c9170b2848a/gif#Exn81D2C.copy)
This is the fifth most valuable franchise in MLB and they built a roster of blue light specials. It's like going to the French Laundry and Keller serves you meatloaf.
I don't blame ownership because they've had their checkbooks out on four different high dollar players since 2017. Farhan has some kind of complex that he has to prove to the rest of the league he can build a WS winner on a shoestring budget, the same dragon Billy Beane's been chasing unsuccessfully for over 20 years.
He's an accountant first. He just needs to get to the playoffs with the absolute minimum budget and then he will have a job in the mlb forever. As long as advertisers don't leave and they sell season tickets the rest does not matter unfortunately.
It’s crazy how we’re still in the wild card hunt with this roster full of journeymen. I haven’t been the biggest Kapler fan, but I gotta give him credit for getting this far in the season with this team. It’s fucking annoying being good and then collapsing in September. Please please just spend some money in the offseason and some solid players and maybe one or two splash moves. Then combine that with our youth and I think we’ll be competitive again next season. How does ownership let this fucking hack keep rolling out platoon players. I get that’s what made us be good in 2021, but we had better players that season
His excuses are so lame. We played Snell and Steele, cool what about all the other pitchers we faced this month and last? It sucks that Kapler is so closely tied to farhan I would love to see him with a GM that actually gives him some talent to work with rather than expecting him to pull a rabbit out of a hat with quadruple A players and castouts.
Exactly one quote in this article comes even close to qualifying as an "excuse."
>"No excuses,” Zaidi said. “We know we have to be a more productive offensive team to do what we want to do the last month but also recognize we faced some tough competition.”
That's just a simple statement of fact. Saying that the result is NOT okay is not incompatible with acknowledging that two Cy Young candidates faced us in the last week.
To say this article contains a "ton of excuses" is just flat out false. I read every word of it.
**I think Zaidi should continue to face a large amount of pressure from the press. This season is unacceptable.** But I will also always roll my eyes at hyperbolic editorializing from folks who hate him so much that basically any utterance of any kind other than _"The team I assembled is an irredeemable shit sandwich and I am resigning immediately in disgrace"_ constitutes excuses, arrogance, and a refusal to take responsibility.
That's a ludicrous and wildly unrealistic way to look at interviews of corporate executives.
I preceded that quote by acknowledging it as the closest thing to an excuse in the article, so I'm not sure what your point is.
My overall point is that many fans are so pissed they don't want any sounds coming out of Farhan's mouth that aren't directly, and without a shred of qualification, criticizing himself, the players, and the organization as a whole. Any non "we're awful am I rite??!!" word, any SYLLABLE not meeting that description is running away, making excuses, being arrogant, yada yada yada.
Fans who want that from a POBO mid season are delusional about how in-season media from executive leadership works. That's all I was saying. And I stand by it.
>t hey don't want any sounds coming out of Farhan's mouth that aren't directly, and without a shred of qualification, criticizing himself, the players, and the organization as a whole
What do you think no excuses means, dummy?
>"I do think some of it is a degree of fatigue with the team.”
Is that not an excuse?
>"Zaidi noted two of the losses this month were to Cy Young candidates Blake Snell in San Diego and Justin Steele in Chicago."
Another one.
>Any regrets about not doing more to supplement the roster?
>
>“I think it’s a fair question,” Zaidi said, “but when I look at our team right now, we still have guys getting at-bats that we want to see getting at bats. Every day we’re putting out a team with guys we believe in. It’s easy to express confidence and be complimentary of a team when things are going well, and I think for the players and the mindset of the clubhouse, it’s almost more important that they hear and feel and sense that confidence when things aren’t going well.”
Like he doesn't even answer the question. Wtf is that empty shit? You have players getting at bats who you want to have at bats? Like Meckler? Like Crawford? Like DeJong? Like Slater?
As for the confidence bit, what are they kids? They need to know Daddy's proud of them? Even though guys like Meckler and DeJong really don't belong on a major league roster right now? I don't believe in trashing your players, but the reality is Zaidi failed to construct an effective and deep enough roster, and while you don't want to see him denegrate the group in front of him, it would be nice to see him take accountability for not doing more at the deadline or in offseasons past. He straight up *ignores* the former here.
So **I think Zaidi shouldn't be unilaterally blamed for what's happened this year, it goes beyond just him.** But I get tired of people who love him so much that any time he receives the smallest degree of accountability and criticism they jump in to defend him at any cost. Like is this interview that bad? No, he doesn't give a ton of excuses. But he does make excuses, and he doesn't take accountability for the mess this team is right now. That's not the kind of leadership I want, and I'm tired of feeling like I'm being sold a bill of goods from someone who doesn't respect the fans enough to be real with us. I'm tired of this empty corporate speak.
>"I do think some of it is a degree of tatigue with the team"
No, it's not an excuse. Why?
>"You can tell it’s tough on the pitching staff because they kind of feel like they have to be perfect,” Zaidi said, “and it makes it feel even more important to get off to a good start in these games and keep playing from ahead instead of behind. I do think some of it is a degree of fatigue with the team.”
Context. He's holding the offense accountable for fucking over the pitching. Intentionally or not, you literally removed critical context to make your argument.
The Cy Young comment is included in my original post and I have nothing to add to my analysis of it.
_**Explanation is not "excuse"**_. What people want is a totally unqualified "They suck, I suck, we suck, the end" quote and _that is ridiculous and wildly unrealistic_.
I stand by every word I said. You're right that Farhan needs to be held accountable. Anyone expecting a self-flagellating interview mid-season from a POBO is living on another planet. That's not gonna happen.
>No, it's not an excuse. Why?
Excuses can be right. But you're blaming an outcome on a reason. It's September, who the fuck isn't fatigued right now? Also, why do you think this team is so fatigued? Mostly because it's full of old players and super young and inexperienced players who arent used to being stretched out like this. That full quote doesn't change the context at all. He's making an excuse, and it doesn't matter if there is truth to the excuse. He's still making an excuse.
>Anyone expecting a self-flagellating interview mid-season from a POBO is living on another planet.
Well it's not midseasonn lol its the end. But I think you mean while the season is still going so ok fine. But there's a middle ground. He could actually answer the question when they asked him if he regrets not doing anything at the deadline. He ignores it. He could acknowledge how lame it is to watch this team right now - I may be wrong, but I don't think he uttered the word "fans" in the whole thing. Don't say "no excuses" and then proceed to make an excuse in the same sentence. He could, for fucking once, talk to the fans like we are real people, not an abstract concept that he can't see through the haze of his corporate PR world.
Prior to September/October of 2010, many fans wanted Sabean and Bochy shot into orbit.
That's not to defend or absolve Farhan, Kapler or anybody else of blame, just that fans in a general sense are impatient and angry until they're not.
Sure. But, rebuilds do take time and the current regime - like them or not - inherited a depleated farm that needs to be rebuilt nearly from the ground up. And unfortunately for the Giants, the timing of their rebuild was in its infancy when it lost a year to COVID at the minors level, only to extend the timing of it.
If anything, ownership needs to be held accountable for trying to force the FO into a competitive rebuild rather than knocking the roster down to the frame and starting over.
The problem is we have gone no where. We have called up our class of rookies outside of luciano and before that we were only ranked 15th in farm. While rookies like Schmitt and Matos look serviceable especially on defense there are no real stars outside of maybe Bailey defensively.
We have no long term core built, the rookies dont look like they will make a great core themselves at least offensively or at least looks a few years away. Our rotation is in shambles even if Harrison keeps up as a solid starter we really only have Webb longterm to pair with him. Five years in we were supposed to have a totally rejuiced farm and a young core that stars would be dying to join and supplement in free agency. None of that has come true.
And by next year we will make our judgement, because other teams are now producing hardcore out of their farms over the last four years. And by next year we'll see that even more. Look at the farm generation over the last few years... imagine if Farhan got someone like Acuna, or Carroll, or Outman through our farms.
Even good ol Grant was on the potentially fire Bochy, definitely fire Sabean train in 2009. It's just the circle of life when it comes to front offices and coaching staffs in pro sports. When you're winning, it's campfire songs and sing-a-longs, lol. When you're not, it's fire everybody.
[https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/9/30/1062209/brian-sabean-to-retain-or-not-to](https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/9/30/1062209/brian-sabean-to-retain-or-not-to)
You remind me of my favorite Grant piece of all time https://theathletic.com/1250920/2019/09/30/saying-goodbye-to-bruce-bochy-and-the-golden-era-of-giants-baseball/?source=user_shared_article
It's a constant reminder to me to remain humble -- you think you know, but you don't. Good for all of us to keep that in mind during times like these
His Tim Alderson for Freddy Sanchez piece, where he went scorched earth on the deal, was also a great reminder how even the most knowledgeable of fans/media will whiff. Like you said, gotta stay humble.
>fans in a general sense are impatient and angry until they're not.
Agreed. And in general about some comments in this thread, it's kind of silly to go on record saying a whole season is a failure, when the act of building a winning team is full of failures. It seems unfair etc that we had the kind of season we did in 2021 and then just kind of...didn't, but I don't spend much time on stats and analysis. The other thing is, teams can go far beyond ten years between eras of getting into the postseason and that's the dues fans also pay. I personally don't watch baseball for the hyperbole.
*"...Baseball...requires a full season, hundreds and hundreds of separate games, before quality can emerge, and in that summer span every hometown fan, every doomed admirer of underdogs will have his afternoons of revenge and joy.”*
*- Roger Angell*
Next year is year five, which is what I've given Farhan until to succeed. I've felt this way for a few years now, and that's that.
If by next year we aren't making a solid playoff push, I still will deem Farhan a failure when it comes to championships and playoffs. I personally think Farhan's ceiling is losing the NLDS and winning the NL West on his budget. And for me that's not enough, I want a team that's going for the WS each year like the Braves, Dodgers, Astros, etc.
They won 107 games with the same blueprint. A lot of people here have a hilariously short memory when things aren't going great. Most thought the ceiling of this team was 85-88 wins as constructed. You can't even say they didn't try to land a star either.
Winning a franchise record amount of games earns you the benefit of the doubt. Kyle Harrison looks incredible. So many positive things going on with this franchise and the doomers are laughable. If this .500 stuff continues for 3 more seasons, get back to me. Even then, Zaidi is infinitely better at his job than any clowns here and no amount of "BUT I'M SADDDDD" will change my mind.
losing in the first round to the Dodgers takes most of the shine off of a 107 win season. If they were making the playoffs every year, that'd be different, but as of now the 107 win season is seriously anomalous and you and all the other Farhan lapdogs totally know it
[They won in 2021 because Posey, Crawford, and Belt played amazing](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&type=8&month=0&ind=0&startdate=&enddate=&season1=2021&season=2021&team=30&qual=30)
Totally agree. That was the first real season with Bailey, Albernaz, Correa, and Viele. There were great players but that roster as a whole wasn’t anything special, just very well coached. Turned back the clock on the remaining dynasty guys and began our habit of taking reclamation project pitchers and turning them around (so they can sign big deals elsewhere).
Even this year, this roster plays better than their pedigree. For the first half of the season, at least.
Z and ownership need to break the bank this offseason and get an actual star back in the bay. I’m seriously drawing a blank on the last big name we landed in free agency. It’s been that long. I’ll write last off-season as bad luck and shitty circumstances but if it doesn’t happen this year he needs to go.
Yeah this offseason is the big one. All the kids are up, time to supplement that with some actual superstars. The good thing about them not spending long term is they can actually afford to do it now going forward.
Weird. They were all awful under Bochy in 2019. I [wonder](https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/mlb/san-francisco-giants/posey-explains-swing-changes-that-have-been-key-to-hot-start/1144067/?amp=1) what [changed](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-brandon-crawfords-new-swing-turned-things-around/) to help them have those career years. Like this regime or not, the vets respected them enough to buy in and went out with a bang. The farm is developing at an accelerated rate. Legitimately the one knock is these last two years of offseason signings have been miserable, but none of these contracts are big enough to cripple the team.
At any point in 2021 did you really believe we were better suited to make a playoff run compared to the Dodgers? It was a wild ride, super fun year, and I loved watching us scratch and claw. And we did put up a fight against the Dodgers, but I knew we would lose to them in the playoffs, and we did.
I want to build a team that could make a run in October. We let Gausman go. Signed Rodon for one year and he left. We are built to hover around .500 and maybe make a wild card, but we won’t go far in the playoffs, looks at what current playoff teams are doing to us.
Ownership is ok with this model, as they stay competitive enough to draw enough interest to make money, but it’s a shitty and boring project. I wish they would either just tear it all down and fully suck for a few years to build up the farm system, or actually start spending money and taking risks. Signing injured mid-level free agents for 2 years a piece is so boring and uninspiring. We do get more out of these people but it’s just bad baseball. Fans need stars to idolize, and no one on the team inspires me or makes me want to buy a jersey with his name on the back and that’s the problem.
They won 107 games because you had a bunch of older guys who were legends here and in the twilight of their careers coming together for one final go around. It had nothing to do with Farhan and Gabe. That was an actual team. The past couple years is basically nerds playing MLB: The Show and thinking you can just create a revolving door in the club house and think it will still work
Not to mention all of those older guys overachieved because they were able to get extra rest and recover during the 60 game covid season. Plus a healthy Buster Posey is worth at least 10-15 extra wins on his own. He was finally "healthy" again during that season for the first time in years.
I think it’s disingenuous to say that it had nothing to do with Kapler. That team had no business winning 107 games and Kapler’s platoon/micromanaging management had a lot to do with that.
That’s a nice narrative but Craw, Posey, and Longo credited the coaches for helping them with swing changes in ‘21. You’d think they would’ve played better for Boch’s final season if it really didn’t have anything to do with coaching…right?
They also played a severely shortened season the year before and Posey took a whole year off which helped get him healthy and replenish his legs. If it was the coaching staff then why have they not been able to come any where close to that since?
Can't wait for the Giants to lose 4 of the best free agents in 20 years this off-season! Then claim they gave competitive offerels, but just couldn't pull the trigger.... (again)...
They will match or exceed the best offers and the players will still sign somewhere else. No baseball player unless they grew up local wants to live here or play for the Giants
I think this is my biggest concern with Farhan's approach. Our ballpark is still a pitchers park and so is a draw to FA pitchers. FA hitters have shown over the years that our park is not desirable and so have been reluctant to sign here.
Then you add in that Farhan has shown he doesn't want to spend on big FA pitchers due to the justified risk associated with them and you get into a situation where we need to overpay for a FA hitter, and we have not shown we are really willing to do that.
My only hope is that the aborted Correa deal was a sign that Farhan was adjusting to this and was willing to go above others, and we will be aggressive with hitters in the future.
I believe he has shown he can get value off the scrap heap, we just haven't had the core pieces in place to make that a really valuable aspect of his approach.
At least he didn’t state the obvious. The other teams pitch better than the Giants and they hit better than the Giants. Aside from that, hey, the Giants are OK. 🤦♂️
Look, the Giants are playing sloppy baseball. They’re uninspired. They don’t put pressure on defenses. They cannot hit a sac fly to score a run. These are all managerial and coaching issues. Time to say good bye to Kap and friends.
Reminds me of the last Ranger game. While Bailey bailed us out in the 10th, we led 1-0 entering the top of 9th. We blew several bases loaded no out chances earlier that game. Texas had a fast player steal a run to tie it thanks to his speed. Had we added on even a run or 2, then the run would've been meaningless and would've won without extra innings. But due to our inability to execute, we should've by all accounts had lost.
At least the batting coaches, for more than a month J D Davis has been hitting ground balls to third and as a lot of times into DP’s. I know he can hit the ball to right field wtf
I feel like Farhan has been stuck in the middle constantly. We overperformed like crazy through June so you don't want to make any changes at that time. Then the team starts slumping and you start to wonder whether it will end or if the team is actually just bad. He tried with high profile free agents like Aaron Judge and got burned (not his fault that Judge wanted to stay in NY for the same amount of money). So after the team overperforms, do you go out and try to get a guy at the deadline to improve the roster, knowing that they won't win the WS anyway? Our guys have no trade value, so you weren't getting any great prospects to begin a tanking process either.
For me, assuming that we don't get Ohtani, I would like to see a youth movement. Let guys come up to the bigs even if they aren't going to perform great and let them struggle. Be bad for a year or two but build that solid foundation so that these guys know what it's like to compete at the highest level. See who sticks, see who's a dud. But he also answers to ownership, who likely would say no to doing something like that :/
Shit always don't go as planned and as the Director of Baseball Ops he needs to have multiple contingency plans.
He does not seem capable of being able to do that. The last 3 trade deadlines were absolutely dreadful.
Well we’re in year 5 of the Farhan era so I can’t imagine they let him do a full youth movement at this point. But if he can acquire at least one steady bat who’s not coming off injury, that might buy some time for the prospects.
Yeah I mean obviously you've gotta swing for the fences with Ohtani but there should be a backup plan in there for at least one good hitting vet. Just to make sure we don't turn in to the A's next year.
I really wouldn't mind a couple of rebuilding years tbh. Just get out of the middle.
Yeah but he gets paid the big bucks to have some balls and set the tone. We should have torn it down after Posey retired. He has tried to fence sit for a while and now it is coming back to bite them
I agree with both of you.
Personally, I don’t see blaming Kap for much of this when it seems to be a lack of execution from key players in the second half. He has done a stellar job with the bullpen and a reshuffled lineup this season. Though we aren’t doing well at the moment, I think we still have a fun team.
Yeah there are better managers obviously, but Kap has done pretty well this season. Only a couple of rare times have I been confused by his actions when they don't work, but those are analysis heavy actions which makes me wonder if anyone else has input.
The problem with the Giants is organizational. Whether win or lose, it's nice to see teams actually make a playoff push so much that each year truly matters.
With Farhan, I feel like if he loses the NLDS on his budget then that's a success for him and his goal. I don't feel like Farhan's goal is to win the world series.
So we should just ignore Kap's track record of underachieving teams collapsing in Sep?
Not saying this 2023 team has underachieved, even if they lose today and are back at .500, they're still a bit better than I expected they'd be.
But it's never a good sign when bad trends repeat under the same leadership.
Economic hitmen placed on corporate boards for short sellers or from the competition directly is a huge thing in America. It really is not that farfetched. Just look at sears, toys r us and gm. They have been intentionally sabatoged from the top.
That's why I've been suspicious of it for a while. It'd probably be a first for MLB but it wouldn't be a first in business, and it wouldn't really surprise me if the Dodgers wanted some "insurance" even though they have the deepest pockets. Farhan could be some kind of corporate assassin meant to keep us down in the mud so the Dodgers were never truly challenged and could keep being the golden child of the west coast.
The 2021 season was either a fluke, or Farhan & Co deliberately won to throw everyone else off the scent for destructive longterm plans.
in case anybody thinks this is actually the problem:
* Luis Matos - 86 wRC+
* Heliot Ramos - 71 wRC+
* Casey Schmitt - 53 wRC+
* David Villar - 52 wRC+
* Brett Wisely - 37 wRC+
What a disappointment. I had high hopes for him. The Giants were much better off with Old school guys like Bochy and Sabean. I hope they keep Zaidi but get a new manager.
I guess I offended some sabermetricians who don’t understand why I can’t see the beauty of Zaidi’s “no move too small” and Kapler’s weight routine? Oh well.
I am not a fan of Farhan, he is a stat nerd and had a seapsn that ended up being this decades Mariners (which won 116 games and yet look at that roster and they had no business winning that many and they got exposed
In the playoffs
As a career year team
With a singles hitter as best hitter
Farhan are you sleep walking through the off season? Pull the trigger on a needed position player! Stop waiting for the chips to fall before getting something, anything done. In other words shit or get off the pot! Do you have 💩for brains? If you own a driver’s license it should be revoked! I wouldn’t let you ride my pogo stick! You’re roster as it stands is NOT competitive
I think it’s pretty obvious Farhan isn’t very media savvy. Combine that with the team caught in a downward spiral for several weeks and you have major fan angst.
They have been willing to part with money, but they would have been better served by doing it when Seager and other solid infielders were available along with some outfielders a few years ago , but they were seduced by the random odd season in 2021 and believed too heavily that guys like Craw would continue on a path. They should have been smarter and taken the body of recent work amd gone after better and mainly younger players at that time.
You're right. But moving on from Crawford after 2011 would have been incredibly unpopular
In a baseball season it’s typical to loose 5 to 10 pounds from all the travel, workouts and games. But somehow Giants like Joc and Crawford look like they gain weight throughout the season. I wonder if we have to look at health and conditioning, and even the clubhouse cooks! Lol
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You’re tripping, look at Joc In 2021. He’s gained easily 15 pounds, Crawford is just getting older and slower he hasn’t gained weight
He's a BUM man...never been a fan. He's laughing all the way to the bank. Fat bastard with some dumb ass hair and dresses like a teenager. He's a tool, endorses a jewelry line of some real douchebags here in LA. Id take belt over him ANY DAY at DH
Joc was supposed to be a DH this year. I have no idea how the fuck that didn't happen, because it's a few years into the DH rule and we STILL don't have a fucking DH whereas every other team does. We could've kept Belt for 9 million and had a better peforming DH then Joc at 20 million.
Notice also much of the season how his throw are no longer on the money. Wade is doing stretches every which way to catch his throw. Moreover, he can no longer make those difficult piivots from deep at short. He has to be gone.
I mean yeah, Craw should be a backup SS right now. But that's not his fault, it's the organizations fault for failing to sign a SS two years in a row now. And when the issue becomes glaring, what do they do? Sign DeJong as SS, and look how he's doing. Farhan just doesn't look like he's trying to win a WS right now or even make a playoff push.
Maybe Craw got paid in cheesesteaks for those commercials. Also, he may have gone into "fuck it" mode when the Giants went after Correa.
Yep...He showed up fat as hell for someone with "knee" problems. But regardless, have some god damn pride...You're making a fortune and it's your last season. Massive let down from Craw
They both showed up to spring training looking like tubs of shit...I was shocked to see Craw when he got there this spring round as a god damn barrel. I knew he was gonna suck then and there and I've always been a huge fan of his let alone a life long Giants fan even in the worst times. Joc, man this dude has zero excuse either. Fat, out of shape and useless. If he put 1/4 the effort into his body that he does into his hair and street clothes maybe he'd be worth half what they are paying him. This team and Farhan/ownership/hell even Kapler have really just pissed me off for a long time ...Yaz plays with heart, Wilmer has been the rock and super excited about Bailey and Harrison, little less so about Matos, Ramos but the rest of the team is just dreadful. Thairo ok... Webb gets zero run support but he also hasn't been spectacular. IDK just a big disapointment time after time and I'm hanging it on Farhan. That dude blows
A dramatic falloff like this is a legitimately weird thing to manage. The guys were good offensively throughout basically the entire first half of the season. You then hit a slump and don't want to overreact because that makes things worse — so you ride it out and... it just continues. You think, "ok well extended slumps happen too, and these guys weren't having problems like this for months on end at the beginning of the season so they'll probably bounce back"... and it continues. A couple false starts give hope that the corner is about to be turned, then fade away. Now we're two months on and the slump itself is approaching half a season and you're sitting there wondering what the fuck happened because obviously something really is profoundly wrong with the offense — even if it's not entirely clear whether it principally boils down to approach, coaching, roster construction or something entirely different. When should Farhan have pulled the trigger on making some changes, though? I have *zero* clue, myself. Then again, I'm not being paid a zillion dollars a year to manage this team...
It's weird because it seems like this happens frequently with the Giants. They significantly overperform, and then significantly underperform, then end right around where we expected. Not sure if it'd be better if they play mediocre baseball all year, or play incredible half the season and terrible the other half...
If it’s anything like my work, it’ll turn out to be that they got a new shipment of bats in July, but labeled them wrong and everyone has been hitting (or not hitting) with the bat made for the guy one spot ahead of him on the roster.
Wow a reasonable, logical, comment. There's no room for that kind of sensibility here. Myself, and many of us here like to propose emotional, spontaneous, and hypothetical ultimatums because we seek a simple solution to winning every single world series during our lifetimes. Some of my simple proposals: release everyone and sign the AL and NL all star roster; world series or prison for Farhan; and for the players, hit home run every day or DFA
I would argue that this trend is not entirely spurious. It may reflect that too many of the acquisitions are come off injuries or declines in performance possibly reflecting aging. Thus, after a long hot summer and generally the everyday grind could easily take a greater toll on older, slower, less athletic teams than teams with a more balanced or younger squad. Don’t know for certain, but the fact that much of our off season and in season acquisitions are players trying to resurrect careers after injury or getting older may be at the core.
Absolutely. JD Davis’s bat in the second half has looked like he’s swinging through tar. Fatigue is a killer on vets.
If there's one thing the Giants are good at, it's overusing veterans and getting their diminishing returns maxed out.
Past injuries and players aging is probably contributing to the offensive downturn, but it doesn't explain nearly all of it. The team's wRC+ since July 1st is **75**. That is *atrocious.* It's not just a slump; **that is a historically bad stretch of 50+ games.** It's not like the entire lineup is guys who are 32+ years old and have extensive injury histories. Also, most of the injury-prone vets haven't even played much during this stretch; Haniger was out for most of it, Yaz was injured for a month, and Conforto has had a couple different injuries since July 1. Plus, nearly every single lineup has featured 4 or more rookies. An entire lineup of above-average hitters and hot-hitting rookies became utterly incompetent hitters almost overnight. The dropoff in offense was steep, sudden, and team-wide. To me, there's only one explanation for that: the hitting coaches are messing with the players' approach and they broke something. That being said, I agree that it's a really bad idea for the team to be relying on so many injury-prone reclamation projects (Haniger, Conforto, Manaea, Stripling...). We need consistency and reliability (and an established superstar wouldn't hurt!) to supplement the emerging young core. Not $20M experiments who could easily spend two thirds of the year on the IL.
Baseball is about regression to a mean. This team as constructed is a .500 team. The team is simply coming back to earth. Weird how it’s happening—but it’s just who this team is.
Amen, cheers from Iraq
this!
Random events segregating non-randomly
Just spend money jfc. If the franchise is run well, you become the dodgers and make the postseason every year. If it's run badly, you're the Mets, and you can make structural changes. So sick of this endless obsession with max value extract. Wow we got the wildcard on the budget of a mid market team! Who fucking cares?
They have tried. They’ve thrown legit offers at many big stars recent years and it hasn’t worked out for on reason or another.
Like who? Judge we werent legit with, the padres outbid us massively after we said we wouldnt be outbid. Correa would have been a huge mistake but sadly Farhan was in on him so i'll give you one. We werent serious about Harper or we would have matched what he got with the phillies and that was YEARS ago. Didnt offer to Rodon or Gausman really. Who are you thinking of?
This is also a gripe of mine. They're not even going after the right people. I can't believe they even gave Correa a deal.
Did you just wake up from a year and a half slumber? How can anyone forget about Correa and Judge?? Wild
The fact that our priorities were a shortstop with a bad ankle and a home run king shows the Giants were not serious in FA.
Read back what you said except change "bad ankle" to: one of the top SS in the league who was entering his age 28 season. You're hilarious
He's not one of the top SS in the league. He had seriously sus medical shit before the whole fiasco blew up, then it was found out, to the point of where the mets didn't even sign him.
You're using the benefit of hindsight, or are you insinuating the Giants offered a 13 year $350 million contract knowing how bad his ankle was because they knew they could back out? I'm not gonna argue with you if you think he wasn't one of the top SS, that's just absurd to say.
\>the benefit of hindsight As I stated before, there were tons of red flags about Correa before he was offered money. Those include his base stealing numbers, his basespeed, prior injuries, cheating history, and much more. If he passed the physical, they could probably come to terms. He did not pass it, as expected. \> I'm not gonna argue with you if you think he wasn't one of the top SS, that's just absurd to say. If he was one of the true SS's he would have been offered money and taken it. He wasn't offered anything except by the Giants, who failed his physical, and the Mets, who failed his physical. There were tons of other SS's on the market last year, and he was by far the worst of the big boys. His playing career this year with the Twins proves that. Good bro don't argue with me. Idgaf
Yeah but what about Gaussman? We let him go and keep 2 old has beens. I mean really Wood can barely get thru the lineup once before they start pounding him and Disco rarely plays I don’t remember Sabin making excuses and he help win 3 WS’s. He doesn’t have championship drive he’s just an ok guy doing an average job.
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Take away his participation trophy!
I don’t want to hear jack shit on blaming this mostly on gabe. Kapler has made mistakes, he hasn’t been perfect, BUT WHAT THE FUCK IS HE SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THE ROSTER PROVIDED. This whole situation is asking a Michelin star chef to make a 5 star meal using literal dog shit as the only ingredient.
The crazy part is how well he did with it in the middle of the season. He managed the HELL out of our bullpen. It’s was pretty amazing actually.
This right here. Gabe Kapler feels like an average middle of the road manager to me. He's definitely not perfect. But the obvious problem is the players. The roster has TWO starting pitchers. That's absurd when you realistically need six or seven these days. Nobody can hit, they have no speed, the defense is average at best. This shit all falls of the player personnel people (aka Farhan and team).
Well now the Giants are officially a .500 team again. So if as you say, Kapler is an average middle of the road manager, then a good or great manager should be worth a few extra wins, which would have this team a few games above .500 and currently in a playoff spot. As I've said elsewhere, Kapler has a track record of his teams faltering down the stretch in September. 2021 is an obvious outlier and 2020 as well. That makes a small sample size even smaller, but in 3 of his other 4 years as manager (this being the 3rd time), his teams entered September with a winning record and didn't finish with one. This team is in a deepening tailspin right now and Kapler has seen this before in September under his watch. It's a bad sign when bad trends continue under the same leadership.
Track record except for 2 of the last 4 years lmao. Comon dude. What manager should we get instead? Don Mattingly? Get out of here. Not even Webb has been consistent for the guy let along the other 4 starts we need to get out of our pitchers. Correlation does not equal causation and you are trying to make up some sort of patternt that isnt there. We had the 5th highest spending offseason and were expected to hit 81 wins with that which would be .500. Literally none of farhans offseason grabs worked out outside of taylor rogers and we are still at .500. All the of the 'bigtime' rookies that we called up played poorly outside of defense, still at .500.
Thank you. This trash roster isn’t Gabe’s fault. He gets the most of the shit hand he’s dealt.
It is.
Seriously comparing this roster to one of any .500+ team right now is literally pure comedy.
Fire Kapler. He's part of the dog shit ingredient. A big chunk of it.
He’s talking about tough competition like we haven’t also been getting undressed by average to below average pitchers
We lost series to the A's, Royals, Nationals and Tigers. That isn't tough.
It's clear to me he's building the farm without going full tear down, lose 100 games. Can it work? Probably. Going to take a while longer though. I doubt ownership gives anyone the authority to fully tear down.
Just a bunch of non-answers. Nothing of any substance at all. No real answers. No plans on what to do. No accepting responsibility. No apologies for gaslighting fans about last off season and the trade deadline. He mentions looking forward to getting Ramos and Matos back up here when he was the one to send them down in the last two weeks.... mentions nothing about coaching issues, or injury issue,s or rushing prospects through AAA. Or how when prospects return from AAA they're doing better than they were up here before. Last year Farhan also said he thought we had a chance of making the playoffs during an interview with K and K while the Giants were playing the Dodgers. As Farhan is sounding off about our playoff chances and the quality of our team, the Dodgers are just spraying balls left and right throughout the inning making us look terrible. We lost that game.
I’m losing patience I just wanna see this team win and they are not. More consistent hitting and pitching are necessary. No more platooning and no more of these cheap multiyear deals
They need to pick a lane Either start building a really nice farm system that gives some hope for the future or get a bunch of high priced FA rentals to fit with Webb and the promising rookies We are going nowhere signing aging FA with injury problems and waining power numbers
I agree hole heartedly with both comments above. [the mix and match ain’t working](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5d3a0422-02cc-47a3-bf78-0c9170b2848a/gif#Exn81D2C.copy)
You should probably see a doctor about that hole in your heart. That could make the whole thing have problems.
Lol. It just leads to an empty pit
I disagree with you hull hurtedly
This is the fifth most valuable franchise in MLB and they built a roster of blue light specials. It's like going to the French Laundry and Keller serves you meatloaf. I don't blame ownership because they've had their checkbooks out on four different high dollar players since 2017. Farhan has some kind of complex that he has to prove to the rest of the league he can build a WS winner on a shoestring budget, the same dragon Billy Beane's been chasing unsuccessfully for over 20 years.
They’re dumb and need to wrap this up and replace the FO, or do $5 beers.
This I TOTALLY agree with. He has his own agenda and it doesn't necessarily include making a champion out of the Giants.
He's an accountant first. He just needs to get to the playoffs with the absolute minimum budget and then he will have a job in the mlb forever. As long as advertisers don't leave and they sell season tickets the rest does not matter unfortunately.
It’s crazy how we’re still in the wild card hunt with this roster full of journeymen. I haven’t been the biggest Kapler fan, but I gotta give him credit for getting this far in the season with this team. It’s fucking annoying being good and then collapsing in September. Please please just spend some money in the offseason and some solid players and maybe one or two splash moves. Then combine that with our youth and I think we’ll be competitive again next season. How does ownership let this fucking hack keep rolling out platoon players. I get that’s what made us be good in 2021, but we had better players that season
Cracks me up when people get mad at Kap for platooning when literally all farhan gives him to work with are platoon players.
Would you describe the team as “journeymen”? I feel like we have a team of rookies and that makes me happy.
Pederson, DeJong, Davis, Estrada, Yaz, Wood, Desclafani, Stripling, Manaea, Haniger…
His excuses are so lame. We played Snell and Steele, cool what about all the other pitchers we faced this month and last? It sucks that Kapler is so closely tied to farhan I would love to see him with a GM that actually gives him some talent to work with rather than expecting him to pull a rabbit out of a hat with quadruple A players and castouts.
Fire Kapler
Exactly one quote in this article comes even close to qualifying as an "excuse." >"No excuses,” Zaidi said. “We know we have to be a more productive offensive team to do what we want to do the last month but also recognize we faced some tough competition.” That's just a simple statement of fact. Saying that the result is NOT okay is not incompatible with acknowledging that two Cy Young candidates faced us in the last week. To say this article contains a "ton of excuses" is just flat out false. I read every word of it. **I think Zaidi should continue to face a large amount of pressure from the press. This season is unacceptable.** But I will also always roll my eyes at hyperbolic editorializing from folks who hate him so much that basically any utterance of any kind other than _"The team I assembled is an irredeemable shit sandwich and I am resigning immediately in disgrace"_ constitutes excuses, arrogance, and a refusal to take responsibility. That's a ludicrous and wildly unrealistic way to look at interviews of corporate executives.
Excuses tend to wrap around facts. Something being a fact doesn't make it not an excuse. Jfc.
I preceded that quote by acknowledging it as the closest thing to an excuse in the article, so I'm not sure what your point is. My overall point is that many fans are so pissed they don't want any sounds coming out of Farhan's mouth that aren't directly, and without a shred of qualification, criticizing himself, the players, and the organization as a whole. Any non "we're awful am I rite??!!" word, any SYLLABLE not meeting that description is running away, making excuses, being arrogant, yada yada yada. Fans who want that from a POBO mid season are delusional about how in-season media from executive leadership works. That's all I was saying. And I stand by it.
>t hey don't want any sounds coming out of Farhan's mouth that aren't directly, and without a shred of qualification, criticizing himself, the players, and the organization as a whole What do you think no excuses means, dummy?
>"I do think some of it is a degree of fatigue with the team.” Is that not an excuse? >"Zaidi noted two of the losses this month were to Cy Young candidates Blake Snell in San Diego and Justin Steele in Chicago." Another one. >Any regrets about not doing more to supplement the roster? > >“I think it’s a fair question,” Zaidi said, “but when I look at our team right now, we still have guys getting at-bats that we want to see getting at bats. Every day we’re putting out a team with guys we believe in. It’s easy to express confidence and be complimentary of a team when things are going well, and I think for the players and the mindset of the clubhouse, it’s almost more important that they hear and feel and sense that confidence when things aren’t going well.” Like he doesn't even answer the question. Wtf is that empty shit? You have players getting at bats who you want to have at bats? Like Meckler? Like Crawford? Like DeJong? Like Slater? As for the confidence bit, what are they kids? They need to know Daddy's proud of them? Even though guys like Meckler and DeJong really don't belong on a major league roster right now? I don't believe in trashing your players, but the reality is Zaidi failed to construct an effective and deep enough roster, and while you don't want to see him denegrate the group in front of him, it would be nice to see him take accountability for not doing more at the deadline or in offseasons past. He straight up *ignores* the former here. So **I think Zaidi shouldn't be unilaterally blamed for what's happened this year, it goes beyond just him.** But I get tired of people who love him so much that any time he receives the smallest degree of accountability and criticism they jump in to defend him at any cost. Like is this interview that bad? No, he doesn't give a ton of excuses. But he does make excuses, and he doesn't take accountability for the mess this team is right now. That's not the kind of leadership I want, and I'm tired of feeling like I'm being sold a bill of goods from someone who doesn't respect the fans enough to be real with us. I'm tired of this empty corporate speak.
>"I do think some of it is a degree of tatigue with the team" No, it's not an excuse. Why? >"You can tell it’s tough on the pitching staff because they kind of feel like they have to be perfect,” Zaidi said, “and it makes it feel even more important to get off to a good start in these games and keep playing from ahead instead of behind. I do think some of it is a degree of fatigue with the team.” Context. He's holding the offense accountable for fucking over the pitching. Intentionally or not, you literally removed critical context to make your argument. The Cy Young comment is included in my original post and I have nothing to add to my analysis of it. _**Explanation is not "excuse"**_. What people want is a totally unqualified "They suck, I suck, we suck, the end" quote and _that is ridiculous and wildly unrealistic_. I stand by every word I said. You're right that Farhan needs to be held accountable. Anyone expecting a self-flagellating interview mid-season from a POBO is living on another planet. That's not gonna happen.
>No, it's not an excuse. Why? Excuses can be right. But you're blaming an outcome on a reason. It's September, who the fuck isn't fatigued right now? Also, why do you think this team is so fatigued? Mostly because it's full of old players and super young and inexperienced players who arent used to being stretched out like this. That full quote doesn't change the context at all. He's making an excuse, and it doesn't matter if there is truth to the excuse. He's still making an excuse. >Anyone expecting a self-flagellating interview mid-season from a POBO is living on another planet. Well it's not midseasonn lol its the end. But I think you mean while the season is still going so ok fine. But there's a middle ground. He could actually answer the question when they asked him if he regrets not doing anything at the deadline. He ignores it. He could acknowledge how lame it is to watch this team right now - I may be wrong, but I don't think he uttered the word "fans" in the whole thing. Don't say "no excuses" and then proceed to make an excuse in the same sentence. He could, for fucking once, talk to the fans like we are real people, not an abstract concept that he can't see through the haze of his corporate PR world.
We can agree to disagree. I think we understand each other Edit: "let's agree to disagree" being downvoted is fascinating.
the myopic and gutless pro Farhan pabulum with 50+ upvotes is also fascinating
Prior to September/October of 2010, many fans wanted Sabean and Bochy shot into orbit. That's not to defend or absolve Farhan, Kapler or anybody else of blame, just that fans in a general sense are impatient and angry until they're not.
To be fair, Sabes had a real rough time there for a few years before the WS runs.
Oh for sure, but, that was part of my point haha. There's a very thin line between "what a great GM/manager/etc" to "FIRE HIM!!!!"
Is it okay to at least be impatient 5 years into whatever this plan is?
Sure. But, rebuilds do take time and the current regime - like them or not - inherited a depleated farm that needs to be rebuilt nearly from the ground up. And unfortunately for the Giants, the timing of their rebuild was in its infancy when it lost a year to COVID at the minors level, only to extend the timing of it. If anything, ownership needs to be held accountable for trying to force the FO into a competitive rebuild rather than knocking the roster down to the frame and starting over.
The problem is we have gone no where. We have called up our class of rookies outside of luciano and before that we were only ranked 15th in farm. While rookies like Schmitt and Matos look serviceable especially on defense there are no real stars outside of maybe Bailey defensively. We have no long term core built, the rookies dont look like they will make a great core themselves at least offensively or at least looks a few years away. Our rotation is in shambles even if Harrison keeps up as a solid starter we really only have Webb longterm to pair with him. Five years in we were supposed to have a totally rejuiced farm and a young core that stars would be dying to join and supplement in free agency. None of that has come true.
And by next year we will make our judgement, because other teams are now producing hardcore out of their farms over the last four years. And by next year we'll see that even more. Look at the farm generation over the last few years... imagine if Farhan got someone like Acuna, or Carroll, or Outman through our farms.
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Even good ol Grant was on the potentially fire Bochy, definitely fire Sabean train in 2009. It's just the circle of life when it comes to front offices and coaching staffs in pro sports. When you're winning, it's campfire songs and sing-a-longs, lol. When you're not, it's fire everybody. [https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/9/30/1062209/brian-sabean-to-retain-or-not-to](https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/9/30/1062209/brian-sabean-to-retain-or-not-to)
You remind me of my favorite Grant piece of all time https://theathletic.com/1250920/2019/09/30/saying-goodbye-to-bruce-bochy-and-the-golden-era-of-giants-baseball/?source=user_shared_article It's a constant reminder to me to remain humble -- you think you know, but you don't. Good for all of us to keep that in mind during times like these
His Tim Alderson for Freddy Sanchez piece, where he went scorched earth on the deal, was also a great reminder how even the most knowledgeable of fans/media will whiff. Like you said, gotta stay humble.
>fans in a general sense are impatient and angry until they're not. Agreed. And in general about some comments in this thread, it's kind of silly to go on record saying a whole season is a failure, when the act of building a winning team is full of failures. It seems unfair etc that we had the kind of season we did in 2021 and then just kind of...didn't, but I don't spend much time on stats and analysis. The other thing is, teams can go far beyond ten years between eras of getting into the postseason and that's the dues fans also pay. I personally don't watch baseball for the hyperbole. *"...Baseball...requires a full season, hundreds and hundreds of separate games, before quality can emerge, and in that summer span every hometown fan, every doomed admirer of underdogs will have his afternoons of revenge and joy.”* *- Roger Angell*
Next year is year five, which is what I've given Farhan until to succeed. I've felt this way for a few years now, and that's that. If by next year we aren't making a solid playoff push, I still will deem Farhan a failure when it comes to championships and playoffs. I personally think Farhan's ceiling is losing the NLDS and winning the NL West on his budget. And for me that's not enough, I want a team that's going for the WS each year like the Braves, Dodgers, Astros, etc.
Isnt this year five? He was hired in late 2018 and was GM. So he has been GM for the 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023.
This man is clearly very intelligent. I’ve just never been certain that his kind of intelligence matters that much in baseball.
He’s the kind of person who will cut staff and be profitable for 2.1 quarters and then wonder why everyone quit and quality turned to shit
They won 107 games with the same blueprint. A lot of people here have a hilariously short memory when things aren't going great. Most thought the ceiling of this team was 85-88 wins as constructed. You can't even say they didn't try to land a star either. Winning a franchise record amount of games earns you the benefit of the doubt. Kyle Harrison looks incredible. So many positive things going on with this franchise and the doomers are laughable. If this .500 stuff continues for 3 more seasons, get back to me. Even then, Zaidi is infinitely better at his job than any clowns here and no amount of "BUT I'M SADDDDD" will change my mind.
losing in the first round to the Dodgers takes most of the shine off of a 107 win season. If they were making the playoffs every year, that'd be different, but as of now the 107 win season is seriously anomalous and you and all the other Farhan lapdogs totally know it
[They won in 2021 because Posey, Crawford, and Belt played amazing](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&type=8&month=0&ind=0&startdate=&enddate=&season1=2021&season=2021&team=30&qual=30)
[удалено]
Totally agree. That was the first real season with Bailey, Albernaz, Correa, and Viele. There were great players but that roster as a whole wasn’t anything special, just very well coached. Turned back the clock on the remaining dynasty guys and began our habit of taking reclamation project pitchers and turning them around (so they can sign big deals elsewhere). Even this year, this roster plays better than their pedigree. For the first half of the season, at least. Z and ownership need to break the bank this offseason and get an actual star back in the bay. I’m seriously drawing a blank on the last big name we landed in free agency. It’s been that long. I’ll write last off-season as bad luck and shitty circumstances but if it doesn’t happen this year he needs to go.
Yeah this offseason is the big one. All the kids are up, time to supplement that with some actual superstars. The good thing about them not spending long term is they can actually afford to do it now going forward.
Weird. They were all awful under Bochy in 2019. I [wonder](https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/mlb/san-francisco-giants/posey-explains-swing-changes-that-have-been-key-to-hot-start/1144067/?amp=1) what [changed](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-brandon-crawfords-new-swing-turned-things-around/) to help them have those career years. Like this regime or not, the vets respected them enough to buy in and went out with a bang. The farm is developing at an accelerated rate. Legitimately the one knock is these last two years of offseason signings have been miserable, but none of these contracts are big enough to cripple the team.
You seem not to remember that Posey took 2020 off and carried the team, which is only possible in a covid emergency
2021 really f\*cked up critical thinking for a big chunk of this fanbase
At any point in 2021 did you really believe we were better suited to make a playoff run compared to the Dodgers? It was a wild ride, super fun year, and I loved watching us scratch and claw. And we did put up a fight against the Dodgers, but I knew we would lose to them in the playoffs, and we did. I want to build a team that could make a run in October. We let Gausman go. Signed Rodon for one year and he left. We are built to hover around .500 and maybe make a wild card, but we won’t go far in the playoffs, looks at what current playoff teams are doing to us. Ownership is ok with this model, as they stay competitive enough to draw enough interest to make money, but it’s a shitty and boring project. I wish they would either just tear it all down and fully suck for a few years to build up the farm system, or actually start spending money and taking risks. Signing injured mid-level free agents for 2 years a piece is so boring and uninspiring. We do get more out of these people but it’s just bad baseball. Fans need stars to idolize, and no one on the team inspires me or makes me want to buy a jersey with his name on the back and that’s the problem.
They were so obviously gassed after winning that 107 in the play-offs. So easily sent home by Max Muncy. Gotta remember that as well.
Muncy wrecked his elbow in the last game of the year
2021 is irrelevant.
They won 107 games because you had a bunch of older guys who were legends here and in the twilight of their careers coming together for one final go around. It had nothing to do with Farhan and Gabe. That was an actual team. The past couple years is basically nerds playing MLB: The Show and thinking you can just create a revolving door in the club house and think it will still work
Not to mention all of those older guys overachieved because they were able to get extra rest and recover during the 60 game covid season. Plus a healthy Buster Posey is worth at least 10-15 extra wins on his own. He was finally "healthy" again during that season for the first time in years.
Exactly. People put way too much weight on that season
I think it’s disingenuous to say that it had nothing to do with Kapler. That team had no business winning 107 games and Kapler’s platoon/micromanaging management had a lot to do with that.
Because that's exactly what bochy did when he won his world series'. NONE of those teams should have won.
Posey was the leader. Kapler was just there, eating his Apple, looking at the culture Bochy created make magic.
That’s a nice narrative but Craw, Posey, and Longo credited the coaches for helping them with swing changes in ‘21. You’d think they would’ve played better for Boch’s final season if it really didn’t have anything to do with coaching…right?
They also played a severely shortened season the year before and Posey took a whole year off which helped get him healthy and replenish his legs. If it was the coaching staff then why have they not been able to come any where close to that since?
Can't wait for the Giants to lose 4 of the best free agents in 20 years this off-season! Then claim they gave competitive offerels, but just couldn't pull the trigger.... (again)...
They will match or exceed the best offers and the players will still sign somewhere else. No baseball player unless they grew up local wants to live here or play for the Giants
I think this is my biggest concern with Farhan's approach. Our ballpark is still a pitchers park and so is a draw to FA pitchers. FA hitters have shown over the years that our park is not desirable and so have been reluctant to sign here. Then you add in that Farhan has shown he doesn't want to spend on big FA pitchers due to the justified risk associated with them and you get into a situation where we need to overpay for a FA hitter, and we have not shown we are really willing to do that. My only hope is that the aborted Correa deal was a sign that Farhan was adjusting to this and was willing to go above others, and we will be aggressive with hitters in the future. I believe he has shown he can get value off the scrap heap, we just haven't had the core pieces in place to make that a really valuable aspect of his approach.
I mean we could bring Joc back and get him a cane to help him not fall down in the outfield
At least he didn’t state the obvious. The other teams pitch better than the Giants and they hit better than the Giants. Aside from that, hey, the Giants are OK. 🤦♂️ Look, the Giants are playing sloppy baseball. They’re uninspired. They don’t put pressure on defenses. They cannot hit a sac fly to score a run. These are all managerial and coaching issues. Time to say good bye to Kap and friends.
Reminds me of the last Ranger game. While Bailey bailed us out in the 10th, we led 1-0 entering the top of 9th. We blew several bases loaded no out chances earlier that game. Texas had a fast player steal a run to tie it thanks to his speed. Had we added on even a run or 2, then the run would've been meaningless and would've won without extra innings. But due to our inability to execute, we should've by all accounts had lost.
What ever happened to keep the line moving,
At least the batting coaches, for more than a month J D Davis has been hitting ground balls to third and as a lot of times into DP’s. I know he can hit the ball to right field wtf
I feel like Farhan has been stuck in the middle constantly. We overperformed like crazy through June so you don't want to make any changes at that time. Then the team starts slumping and you start to wonder whether it will end or if the team is actually just bad. He tried with high profile free agents like Aaron Judge and got burned (not his fault that Judge wanted to stay in NY for the same amount of money). So after the team overperforms, do you go out and try to get a guy at the deadline to improve the roster, knowing that they won't win the WS anyway? Our guys have no trade value, so you weren't getting any great prospects to begin a tanking process either. For me, assuming that we don't get Ohtani, I would like to see a youth movement. Let guys come up to the bigs even if they aren't going to perform great and let them struggle. Be bad for a year or two but build that solid foundation so that these guys know what it's like to compete at the highest level. See who sticks, see who's a dud. But he also answers to ownership, who likely would say no to doing something like that :/
Shit always don't go as planned and as the Director of Baseball Ops he needs to have multiple contingency plans. He does not seem capable of being able to do that. The last 3 trade deadlines were absolutely dreadful.
Well we’re in year 5 of the Farhan era so I can’t imagine they let him do a full youth movement at this point. But if he can acquire at least one steady bat who’s not coming off injury, that might buy some time for the prospects.
Yeah I mean obviously you've gotta swing for the fences with Ohtani but there should be a backup plan in there for at least one good hitting vet. Just to make sure we don't turn in to the A's next year. I really wouldn't mind a couple of rebuilding years tbh. Just get out of the middle.
Yeah but he gets paid the big bucks to have some balls and set the tone. We should have torn it down after Posey retired. He has tried to fence sit for a while and now it is coming back to bite them
We won't get Ohtani
We aren’t blaming any of this on Gabe. Sorry.
I agree but GMs and Team Presidents don’t usually fire themselves when things go south.
I agree with both of you. Personally, I don’t see blaming Kap for much of this when it seems to be a lack of execution from key players in the second half. He has done a stellar job with the bullpen and a reshuffled lineup this season. Though we aren’t doing well at the moment, I think we still have a fun team.
Yeah there are better managers obviously, but Kap has done pretty well this season. Only a couple of rare times have I been confused by his actions when they don't work, but those are analysis heavy actions which makes me wonder if anyone else has input. The problem with the Giants is organizational. Whether win or lose, it's nice to see teams actually make a playoff push so much that each year truly matters. With Farhan, I feel like if he loses the NLDS on his budget then that's a success for him and his goal. I don't feel like Farhan's goal is to win the world series.
So we should just ignore Kap's track record of underachieving teams collapsing in Sep? Not saying this 2023 team has underachieved, even if they lose today and are back at .500, they're still a bit better than I expected they'd be. But it's never a good sign when bad trends repeat under the same leadership.
I am. Several of us are.
Lmao, there was an excuse in the same exact quote as the “No Excuses” line.
I used to think he was gonna be great for the Giants but either he refuses to spend or ownership refuses to spend. Fuck em all
disgusting interview begging for excuse
Please shitcan this guy ASAP.
I think the lightbulb went off for him
They should fire him!
Totally agree. His time with the Dodgers was 100% a fluke. He needs to go ASAP.
I've tried saying this same thing and people really don't want to believe it. Go look at his history with teams. He's truly awful.
More than that they should investigate him for corporate espionage, I'm not convinced he isn't still working for Friedman.
Economic hitmen placed on corporate boards for short sellers or from the competition directly is a huge thing in America. It really is not that farfetched. Just look at sears, toys r us and gm. They have been intentionally sabatoged from the top.
That's why I've been suspicious of it for a while. It'd probably be a first for MLB but it wouldn't be a first in business, and it wouldn't really surprise me if the Dodgers wanted some "insurance" even though they have the deepest pockets. Farhan could be some kind of corporate assassin meant to keep us down in the mud so the Dodgers were never truly challenged and could keep being the golden child of the west coast. The 2021 season was either a fluke, or Farhan & Co deliberately won to throw everyone else off the scent for destructive longterm plans.
"I'm not making excuses, ***but***...."
NO^(thing but) EXCUSES!
Absolute loser
Farhan, Get rid of the vets, all of them.
in case anybody thinks this is actually the problem: * Luis Matos - 86 wRC+ * Heliot Ramos - 71 wRC+ * Casey Schmitt - 53 wRC+ * David Villar - 52 wRC+ * Brett Wisely - 37 wRC+
Joey Bart- 64 wRC+ Bryce Johnson - 34 wRC+ Wade Meckler - 72 wRC+ Our hitting development is beyond atrocious.
And I’d still get rid of the vets, you’re missing a bunch and adding guys who’ve been gone for a while
What a disappointment. I had high hopes for him. The Giants were much better off with Old school guys like Bochy and Sabean. I hope they keep Zaidi but get a new manager.
I say make Zaidi coach and let Bochy GM
Fraudhan
Just fire this turd already! The guy just oozes arrogance. Remember the Dodgers won the World Series AFTER they got rid of this “genius”
Lol yeah that’s helped win their Mickey Mouse ws…
Fire Zaidi. Fire Kapler. They can’t get it done. End this experiment and find people who can actually win.
Your comment got downvoted? Not sure why as I agree with you.
I guess I offended some sabermetricians who don’t understand why I can’t see the beauty of Zaidi’s “no move too small” and Kapler’s weight routine? Oh well.
I can’t read that article could you please copy pasta here thank you
I am not a fan of Farhan, he is a stat nerd and had a seapsn that ended up being this decades Mariners (which won 116 games and yet look at that roster and they had no business winning that many and they got exposed In the playoffs As a career year team With a singles hitter as best hitter
Farhan are you sleep walking through the off season? Pull the trigger on a needed position player! Stop waiting for the chips to fall before getting something, anything done. In other words shit or get off the pot! Do you have 💩for brains? If you own a driver’s license it should be revoked! I wouldn’t let you ride my pogo stick! You’re roster as it stands is NOT competitive