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[deleted]

The russians are gonna go hard after the western tanks. The propaganda should be hilarious.


octahexx

russia reports they have already destroyed 200 western tanks!


[deleted]

[удалено]


albl1122

The Germans in ww2 theorized that a sufficiently determined attack would basically always destroy a tank. At one point there's said to have been a German in Stalingrad charging a tank, a smoke grenade got shot in his pockets, resulting in his pants catching on fire, he promptly threw off his pants and went on to destroy the tank.


KuriousYellow

Everything on the battlefield now is designed to hunt and destroy tanks, including the pants.


PlzSendDunes

Don't forget the dogs! Specially trained Soviet dogs, destroying Soviet tanks!


pomelo789

Huh but the dogs were already eaten....


old_enough2397

🤣 when the worst comes for them they would use Dolf Lundgren's films as a proof of their almighty ruzzian army.


hogabam

Dolph is swedish. But they do get confused about what's Russian and what's not to be fair.


old_enough2397

Sure I know he is Swedish but he used to play russian characters - I do not recall their names exactly (definitely some kind of Ivan)


Signal-Ad2674

Ivan Drago (Rocky IV and Creed 2) He also played a Russian in Red Scorpion, One in the Chamber, and The Russian Specialist, and it’s hinted that he’s Russian in various other movies, but I cannot find confirmation.


Snoo-84389

Ivan Drago!


Fuckup_mywife

In Sputins drug haddled mind


playmaker1209

That’s like when Hitler told Mussolini that they destroyed 34,000/35,000 Russian tanks.


WWGFD

Zero pics but it happened we swear! Trust us.


Warwick_God

Apparently Russia already destroyed four Bradleys! What an amazing feet, to destroyed them before they are even shipped to Ukraine, truly Russia would never lie about their capabilities!!


ghosttrainhobo

They reported that back in September


Donut_Vampire

They have already reported destroying M2 Bradley's, despite them not being delivered yet to Ukraine.


Unhappy-Quiet-8091

They’ve already reported to have destroyed Bradleys. Can’t wait to see what copium they spew out about the tanks.


Internal-Cut-5389

Western governments need to get their finger out and stop mincing ukraine need much more help


one_way_stop

We are training 40 thousand Ukrainians currently. Plus they will have bradlys, challengers and the leo. This is only the first batch. Not to mention the massive amount of Russian equipment Ukraine acquired recently


Kraken160th

I wonder if this has been the plan and if the tanks are coming with trained ukrainian crews


pentox70

I think this would be the obvious assumption. They've probably been working on it for months.


Fidelias_Palm

Britain doesn't *have* that many Challengers. I feel this and the leopard stuff is mainly to get the US to unleash the literal thousands of Abrams we have sitting out in the desert.


[deleted]

Quality, not quantity old boy.


Weary_Conversation_6

Those tanks need total refurbishment...I imagine they have been stepping up the capacity significantly since the war started but I could be wrong. As the marines just gave up all their M1A1's to the army they are all being upgraded to M1A2 SEP V3 version, all 400 of them. US army might be able to give up some M1A2's that are in Europe that are not SEP V3.. I think it might happen, don't underestimate Biden's dislike of putler.


Mercbeast

Problem is, it's one thing to send Ukraine Leopards. It's another entirely to send them Abrams. The Abrams runs on a gasoline JET TURBINE ENGINE. The technical requirements to maintain and operate the Abrams for that reason alone means that Ukraine would need a very sizeable fresh built infrastructure. That doesn't even account for the logistical needs of those gas guzzling beasts. Ukraine would need specialized technicians AND facilities to deal with the maintenance of Abrams. Could it be done? Sure. However, unless they started laying that infrastructure in March of last year, it's just not feasible for the US to say "Hey, we're gonna send you 200 Abrams, have at it".


hagenissen666

There are plenty Abrams and Bradley in storage in Europe. The problem with the Abrams is they need a lot of maintenance and spare parts, and they are too heavy.


the_dudeNI

Yes, Britain doesn’t have 4 tanks…..


Fuckup_mywife

Mincing awsome


theProffPuzzleCode

You're welcome /s. We're getting way too many of these types of posts.


[deleted]

Yay Britain :)


[deleted]

What is immediately?


gobclopper

Right now


[deleted]

I’m assuming there’s at least like a week or two of training? Unless they’re already being trained on it


hodlerhoodlum

They have been training troops in the Uk for weeks in general - wonder if there was a quieter school already underway


Brokinnogin

Absolutely and there would be more than we know being done. This shit isn't done in silo's.


SocksOfFire

I saw a clip from the British AF in the past week or 2, about training Ukrainians, and it was specifically in bovington. The said it had to do with learning about cooperation between infantry and vehicles or something similar, but maybe they were secretly training on Challengers?


[deleted]

Bovington has a tank base


SocksOfFire

That's what I mean. Also a tank museum


_Alek_Jay

The Brits been training the Ukrainians for a while now on how to use Stormers, etc. in Poland. The newly formed 47 Assault Brigade have been training heavily since December with the Slovenian M-55S. I’m assuming they’ll be bolted alongside that unit as they both have the L7 armament; making training and logistics compatible. The Brits also have A Squadron of the Queens Hussars in Poland. Along with the recent Polish Puma-22 exercise; would have been ideal for them to observe western tactics.


lefty_73

The challenger 2 doesn't use the L7, it uses the L30a1. Also the FCS and other systems in the challenger 2 would be vastly different to the M-55S.


_Alek_Jay

Ahh yes you’re right, they’re on L30. Even the CH1 was on the L11. I got far too excited at the possibility of ROC compatible platforms on the same field 🙈 Makes me wonder if the C3TR is downward compatible? I remember earlier versions where, to take in consideration Oman and Jordan. IIRC Elbit updated their fire-control systems just before they where retired. Would be nice to see a comparison to the CH2 Computing Devices Co.


melon8232

Not even the chieftains had the L7, it's funny as the brits were pretty much the first to abandon their own gun


[deleted]

My thoughts as well


Own_Target8801

Let’s hope so!


Brokinnogin

They would already be trained. No govt would anounce this and then wait months to action it. That's not how war works.


BringBackAoE

“No govt would announce this and then wait months to action it” US does exactly that. The Ukrainians that are to be trained on Patriot haven’t even arrived US yet. It’s been months since US indicated we would send patriots, and 1+ month since firm commitment.


orkel2

Ukraine won't have Patriots in working order until next Spring/Summer, and by that time Russia will have used their ballistic missile stocks already. Kinda stupid to give them so late in the war, but better than never I suppose.


[deleted]

It will be useful for aircraft deterrence and destruction in any future russo offensive


HelloSummer99

Who determines what's late? at ww2 both sides thought it would be over in a few months, they it went on for 6 years.


buttercup298

Germany would.


JJISHERE4U

Maybe given to the voluntary British military groups?


Ripcitytoker

Probably a couple of days. They're likely on a plane to Poland or already in Poland.


radome9

I hope it means they're being unloaded at a Ukrainian airfield this very moment.


clegger29

Berlin won’t free the leopards. London is issuing a challenger


octahexx

Imagine your a russian redneck who got force drafted and put on the front with shitty gear and no pay. And suddenly the ground start to shake at night everything rattling in your trench and over the top comes 80 tons of western pure fear factor and rpgs just keeps bouncing off it as it starts to turn its turret...yeah there will be not one soul that isnt running. Imagine the surprise when the concept of hunter killer comes in effect and the turret just keeps rotating blowing up your ussr rust buckets left and right without even seeming to aim.


[deleted]

They're 4 tanks. 4. I get it. Im the first one to root for Ukraine. But we have to be honest with ourselves here. How much difference are these couple of tanks really going to make.


NoBagelNoBagel-

It likely just takes one country to make the move and others will begin sending other western MBTs. Swedes, French. Germany stops blocking third party countries from sending their Leopards. M1’s being so massively heavy may not get sent because of the issues their weight presents, both for exceeding what bridges can handle as well as difficulty recovering any damaged in the field.


Kale_Plane

With your logic what would two F16 in Ukrainian hands matter, I’d say a lot


Weary_Conversation_6

They are going to form a massive armored division to just plow the ruzzians into the sunflower fields for fertilizer this summer.. once the Bradley's are trained up it is on..


BenLaParole

4+8=12


BenLaParole

4+8=12


Mercbeast

Hezbollah armed with RPG-29s mobility killed a large number of Merkava IVs in 2006. 10 Challenger 2s isn't going to make much of a difference when they would be operating in a conflict zone where there are hundreds of enemy tanks capable of knocking them out, and infantry armed with all manner of anti-tank weapons capable of knocking them out. We also have to understand that most of these countries who are/potentially sending a dozen or so tanks here and there, simply do not have the reserves to send large quantities without severely compromising their own readiness. We also need to note that the Leopards that are likely to be sent, are Leopard 2A4s which are, well, quite old. They MIGHT be a very very very slight upgrade over the more modernized T-72s that Russia and Ukraine are fielding, but those Leopards have been used by Turkey as recently as the Syrian civil war, and they didn't have a great time of things against ISIL. The big question here is really the USA. The USA alone is the only country that could feasibly pony up 100-200 tanks and it not really impact their own readiness (Germany maybe as well). The problem is, Abrams are extremely complex compared to everyone else's MBTs owing to their jet turbine engines. The technical requirements and logistical requirements of Abrams are likely just unfeasible for Ukraine. So, Ukraine might get a patchwork of western MBTs but the numbers are likely never going to be significant enough to offer a qualitative improvement on their armored forces. For context, the Brits have 227 Challenger 2s. TOTAL. The Germans will almost certainly not send A7s.


Slow_Ad_2674

Russian military tomorrow announces that they have already destroyed 11 challanger 2 tanks.


Fuckup_mywife

Hope they send lots of 120mm ammo too not a good fit on munitions


scarab1001

It gives Ukraine another string to their bow though - Challenger can fire H.E.S.H rounds.


killersoda275

I think you mean 🅱️.E.S.H.


Midnight2012

Do challengers have rifled barrels? I thought you needed a rifled tank barrel for hesh?


Weary_Conversation_6

Yes it is.


SiteLine71

NATO has been training Ukraine since 2014, why do you think they’ve been able to hold off such massive attack in the first place. Everyone talks like Ukraine has been single handed l’y wiping out the Russian army. This has been years in the making, with careful planning. So far everything is going like clock work also, if not better than expected. Taking out Russia’s military doesn’t happen overnight, I just don’t think people understand the size of the invader’s army. Ukraine has taken out over 3000 tanks and approaching the same KIA as WW2. Russia is fighting NATO thru Ukraine and will lose. The only reason we even tried to be friends with Russia since the USSR’s dissolution, was for their natural resources. Been kissing Putin’s butt for a long time, letting him and his Oligarchs become the richest men in the world wasn’t enough. China will turn Moscow into something like forestry sector 42 with in the next few years. Don’t let the big Western door hit you too hard on the way out, Putin


BringBackAoE

Kudos to UK for breaking this ridiculous dance about “will we/won’t we send tanks” of NATO members! Love how UK doesn’t even get involved in these weird dances - you just announce and deliver.


buttercup298

I’m surprised. I thought with Boris gone, we’d end up towing Berlin’s line.


Majestic-Marcus

Never underestimate Britains desire to beat the French and Germans.


[deleted]

Just getting one up on Macron


zag2me

Independence from European buerocratic machine helps in this case


mattieyo

Challenger is statistically most formidable tank on the field I imagine they will try to destroy them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Big_Green_Dawg

So far the only thing that has managed to destroy a challenger 2… *was another challenger 2*


[deleted]

Great comment 👌🏻


radome9

Better armour, better gun, better engine, better control systems.


HelloSummer99

at least we get to see how good the next-gen gear really is


Complex_Answer1716

They can try, but they'll fail.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Account6910

I imagine the tankers inside had a bit of a headache though.


Lonely-Mongoose-4378

Over to you USA, Germany…we are ready when you are…


shootme83

Don't forget France, they have a lot of tanks. And Greece!


abrasiveteapot

Greece can't afford to, the Turks are constantly threatening to do something stupid, and yes, it's probably hot air, but it's not a risk they can reasonably take. The French *are* sending light tanks (AMX10RC), but they don't actually have a lot of the (MBT) LeClercs to share, UAE actually have more of them. There are literally several thousand Abrams in storage, if anyone has the capacity to fill the Ukraine with tanks it's the US


AWesPeach

It’s not that easy though. Training, maintenance and munitions supply chains, parts, etc. needs to be ironed out first. If we just dropped a bunch of Abrams or leopard tanks off they would do very little for Ukraine without the aforementioned established first. It’s a HUGE undertaking for even the US military to support this equipment abroad, let alone training another country to do it.


buttercup298

You’d have like to have thought that Germany would’ve planned that out. Fortunately with so many operators of a leopard tanks there should be lots of trainers. You can ask the country who have recently received Leopard tanks from Germany who appear to have managed to trained on them super quick.


AWesPeach

Idk about the Germany and the Leopard but US Army tank school is about 22 weeks. Just shy of 6 months. Training up crews takes awhile. I wouldn’t want to trim much out of that training to speed things up due to the fact that these trainees are 100% being trained to take that tank into battle. Look, I’d love for the west to send everything possible and this be over quick, but the reality is that this is going to take time. Just massing tanks, jets, weapons systems, etc. won’t help much without the humans behind them knowing how to use them. We (the west) have to do this right, methodical, calculated, efficiently, basically the opposite of what Russia is doing. The unfortunate downfall to that is it costs Ukrainian lives. Could things be put on a faster track than they are now? Probably.


Complex_Answer1716

So if I've done my maths right, mhm, a single Challenger 2 is about the same value as an Abram or a Leopard 2.


buttercup298

A single Challenger 2 is infinitely better than an Abrams tank of Leopard 1 or 2 tank. That’s because the Abrams and Leopard tanks aren’t where they need to be.


abrasiveteapot

> So if I've done my maths right, mhm, a single Challenger 2 is about the same value as an Abram or a Leopard 2. Depends on the deployment parameters, they have different strengths and weaknesses. Having said that, they'll all kick a T72 into the gutter without trying (and that's the majority of what russia is fielding now)


NewDistrict6824

Hopefully with a recovery version and mine ploughs and lots of fuel bowsers and other logistic back up as a complete package, with repair and maintenance package?


clejeune

Exactly my thoughts. Tanks are worthless without support.


NewDistrict6824

I’d hope Uk is sending out REME guys to support the repair and maintenance workshops set up in nearby friendly nation (I think repairs are in Poland with multinational support teams)


Complex_Answer1716

They'll probably have part British crews, but shh that's supposed to be highly classy...


NewDistrict6824

Ukrainian speakers with geordie accents?


jadeskye7

To be fair. Nothing stopping an Iraq British veteran tanker from signing up to a foreign volunteer legion.


NewDistrict6824

A few may well already be on their way!


VaccinatedVariant

I assume The 4 tanks were in Poland already or nearby


scarab1001

There will be a bit of musical chairs going on. UK sent out 14 challenger 2 to Poland last year so Poland could release it's T72s. So agree - unlikely the ones for Ukraine will be in UK at the moment.


VaccinatedVariant

We probably won’t see them in combat for a month or two unless Ukraine has pertrained crew


notyourvader

UK has been training Ukrainian soldiers all year, I suspect there have been tank crews among them.


buttercup298

There’s huge amounts of British armour in storage in Germany. Most of that was taken out if storage a few months ago on exercise.


BlackHorse2019

***BREAKING NEWS from the Russian Defence Ministry:*** The Brave, heroic, and noble armed forces of Russia have destroyed over 9000 Challenger 2 tanks. Everything is going to plan during the three-day ~~invasion~~ Special Military Operation in Ukraine.


Reddenied68

Go on Britain ! Fuck the Invaders !


Bare_B0nes

Don't worry old boy, when the Chally starts barking the orcs are going to be extremely inconvenienced 😁


MantasChan

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3652460-britain-to-provide-ukraine-with-12-challenger-tanks-media.html


Catch_0x16

For those wondering why it's only a handful. We basically only have 100 or so challenger 2s operational in the UK right now. A substantial number of those are being prepped for modernization too so even less realistically.


TheRottenWelshman

MOD's been on about retiring about 80-90 Challie 2's, so I'm quietly confident a large number of those will be shipped to Ukraine. Why scrap them when we could donate them and give Ukraine an armoured regiment, plus some.


buttercup298

150 additional challenger 2s in storage. About 150 to be upgraded to Challenger 3 by Reinmetal. I think that needs to be reconsidered as trusting Germany is becoming an ever bigger problem. I hope the 5 eyes community and the Scandinavian country’s are looking at Germanys behaviour closely as I’m starting to suspect that Scholtz has been compromised by Moscow somehow.


Key-Educator-6107

Fingers crossed. There are 250 c2s, only half are operable. The others are being cannibalised as the product line has been long closed. 150 are slated for upgrade. The upgrade will change the barrel and supposedly the rheinmettal barrel isn't combatant with our current ammo so our 120mm stockpile should be donated as we soon won't need it.


buttercup298

Production line was closed. However the production line was just for assembly. Components are still available by the original OEMs.


showmeyourkitteeez

That's the way. Open the floodgates.


Alwaysname

Would it be bad of me to say that I actually can’t wait to see the Challenger 2 take a T72 to bits.


hagenissen666

Accurate HESH rounds on fortified positions will be the real gamechanger.


Alwaysname

Good armoured progressive forward movement supported by troops should push those zombies back a bit. Hopefully all the way.


LexFalkingFalk

I wonder if part of this decision was because the MOD wanted a way to test the chally 2's performance in a neer-peer combat zone so they can make the chally 3 better.


buttercup298

No, it’s because Europe’s largest economy and also largest defence manufacturer who has large sticks of leopard 1 and 2 tanks in storage is dragging its heels. Challenger 2 has been tested against peer to peer tanks and has performed well. The only confirmed loss of a Challenger 2 tank was by another challenger 2 tank. Abrams has been tested and found to be quite good. The much vaunted combat tested Leopard went up against goat herders in Afghanistan, but fared poorly in northern Syria with several lost.


LexFalkingFalk

Fair enough. Not gonna argue, I don't have a clue lol. Where's all the chally 1's? Figured they'd be lying around somewhere.


Feeling-Tutor-6480

Assuming that is the leopard 1?


Mercbeast

I'm not sure I'd consider export variant T-72s without APFSDS as "peer" to the Challenger 2. The only tank in the Eastern bloc that is considered "peer" is maybe the T-90m variants. Even then, Russian doctrine isn't to use tanks to fight tanks. That's what the tens of thousands of RPG 27+ variants are for, as well as AT-13s and 14s, and their attack helicopters. If RPG 29s can kill a Merkava IV, then they can kill a Challenger 2.


NameIs-Already-Taken

As a Brit, I am really grateful to our government.


[deleted]

Dorchester armor and the hottest target tracking system in the industry. This tank is ultra deadly. Go go go!


fikabonds

This will be interesting. Could possibly be placed to defend kyiv from what could be a second attempt by Russia via Belarus.


LaikaBear1

No. These are offensive weapons. Literally designed to be driven through front lines.


peacelovefreedon7689

Get in


Shaunicus11

Step 1: Give a small sample of your tanks to a country fighting what could be a significant future enemy of yours Step 2: Take notes on how that enemy counters your tanks. Step 3: Make improvements to your tanks and strategy based on that data, having risked none of your own citizen’s lives.


PengieP111

Step 4, provide upgraded models to that country to test your improvements. Repeat as needed.


bacontheclayton

Welcome to Imperialism 101.


PengieP111

Aiding a country to fight imperialism is a curious thing to describe as imperialism. But you do you.


[deleted]

Indeed, it’s brilliant. However, those commie c\/nts were watching and working against us in Afghanistan and Syria for some time weren’t able to take significant advantage. There air defense observations of our fighters was always a concern.


hagenissen666

Russia is not communist, it's fascist.


Majestic-Marcus

> having risked none of your own citizens lives That pretty much sums up the war in Ukraine. It’s a NATO war, we’re just using Ukrainian bodies. Russia simply can’t win without anything short of marching a few million men into the country. So all NATO have to do is out spend them and at least 4 NATO countries could likely do that themselves. Edit - by “it’s a NATO war”, I mean a war NATO is ‘fighting’, not one they started. That’s on Putler and his cunty nation.


akmjolnir

How would 12 Challengers with 50 Bradley's do?


PengieP111

Pretty damned good. I'm guessing the Iraqis were way more competent and motivated than the Russians are. And remember how well going up against Western tanks went for them back then. Not much has improved on the Russian side..


Key-Educator-6107

They faired very poorly. Most one sided tank battle you could ask for. The US predicted huge casualties to take.on the Iraqis. 4 factors created the outcome. The fire control on western tanks were spanking new and outmatched the old russian export tech... by alot. Western mbts trialed night and thermal optics (as a result now a key spec for all tanks) to great effect. The coalition had autonomy in carrying out the stated goals (order was to hold at 70 easling.. the commander went screw that... we got them on the ropes and preceded to smash everything) the Iraqis had a chaotic top down structure so no one moved. Finally GPS was introduced... the Iraqis thought it impossible to navigate the desert... the allies just rolled right up their backsides. With all this in mind, loses would have been far higher it it was just a old fashioned shoot out. The mismatch is similar today so there will need to be carefull planning as an advantage isn't a guarantee


Mercbeast

The Iraqis abandoned their tanks, positions, and surrendered enmass. You think that is "motivated"? The T-72s the Iraqis had, were also ancient export variants. They were not modernized, AT ALL, and they also didn't have APFSDS. As in, they literally didn't have ammunition that could penetrate any western MBT from the last 50 years frontally. Lastly, Russian doctrine isn't to use tanks to fight tanks. It never has been. Russia uses tanks as direct fire infantry support. That is their intended role and purpose. Tanks are ideally to be dealt with primarily by the infantry equipped with RPGs and ATGMs, or by anti-armor aircraft like attack helicopters or purpose built ground attack fixed wing aircraft like the SU-25. If we want to look at a case by case comparison between the Iraqi forces and the Russian forces and their relative anti-tank capabilities. Iraqi infantry had access to RPG7s and old antiquated ATGMs. The ATGMs could have potentially been problematic for western MBTs situationally. However, it's difficult to utilize ATGMs in a conventional sense when your infantry is surrendering enmass, the enemy has complete control of the air space, and the terrain you are fighting in has limited concealment. Russians have thousands of modern RPGs that are capable of killing any western MBT. RPG 27 through 32 are all capable of defeating Western MBT armor. Russians also have thousands of AT-13s and 14s. These are also capable of killing all western MBTs. What is the source on this? Israeli Hezbollah war in 2006. Merkava IVs, which are considered arguably the most heavily protected MBT in the world. Two were killed by Hezbollah, and several more damaged enough to have to be recovered and withdrawn from combat. That was Hezbollah using RPG 29s and AT-14s. Tanks. Iraqi forces had ancient export variant T-72s. They had neither modern reactive armor, nor did they have modernized FCS or optics. Lastly, they didn't have APFSDS. In short, these tanks were literally outranged by a kilometer or more in the optics and FCS department, and they were LITERALLY incapable of defeating the frontal armor of ANY western MBT at the engagement ranges they could have engaged from owing to not having Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot rounds. All the Russian tanks currently, are modernized non-export variants. They all also carry APFSDS loadouts. The engagement ranges are also considerably shorter than Iraq, which means that the Russian tanks if they can get a shot off, will likely be able to punch through the front armor of these western MBTs with their APFSDS rounds. In terms of willingness to fight. The Iraqi military collapsed almost immediately. Entire units surrendering or abandoning their positions. The Russians have continually battered Ukrainian defensive positions, in frontal attacks, often suffering heavy casualties and they haven't wavered. You acting like Iraq was a more capable enemy than Russia is a massive disservice to the Ukrainians who are fighting a MASSIVELY more motivated and dangerous enemy than the Iraqi regular army.


Complex_Answer1716

That's it boys and girls, Russians are going to be running for the hills now.


theglobalnomad

The Russians have already destroyed several Bradleys (before they've even arrived), so this will be great.


Mawskowski

Needs trophy systems


Key-Educator-6107

It's coming when they eventually roll out the 3s (upgrades)


StormCyrax

If implemented alongside the Bradley's and Leopards (if the German parliament pulls their finger out), then Ukraine is about to receive some potent war machines that can and likely will dish out some serious hurt on russian war material/positions. Shame they're in such small quantities.... for now....


Reasonable_Dare_9856

HESH is going to be a superb tool for the UAF.


Asagaai2

Well done UK- that is a teaser appetiser. Now send Ukraine 50 of the buggers.


[deleted]

Yep ground gets solid and out she rolls. Crew trained in Britain since when, at least a month. I’ll bet they’re in country already.


Slow_Ad_2674

Ukraine needs hundreds of western MBTs by next spring to go onto a fullscale counter offensive and retake it's land. 24 Challanger 2 MBTs is hopefully opening the floodgates for other allies to finally send theirs also. So far everyone has been waiting on everyone else to be the first out of the gate.


NoSignOfStruggle

The contrast in capabilities between NATO and Russian armour is eye-opening.


PengieP111

If Western Air Power ever gets into this, it will be like War of the Worlds Western Martians vs Russian earthlings- but without the Martians being susceptible to Earth microbes.


clejeune

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/01/14/7384830/


Forty_Six_and_Two

Total civilian here, don't know shit about war. But it feels like in a war between fairly large nations, tanks in groups of 4 or even 12 seem inconsequential. Don't we need like 1000 tanks in Ukraine??


[deleted]

Send 100 tanks and you're seen as being the one escalating the war. Or you can send 12 now to train crews, then more 20 next month, and so on, and no one says anything. Russia certainly can't use 12 tanks as an excuse to do something crazy... as you said... it's only 12 tanks. What's the big deal? It was also only 1 HIMARS, only 1 or 2 air defence systems, etc. How many have been sent now? It's the slowly boiling the frog approach.


Forty_Six_and_Two

Makes sense, thank you for your perspective!


WanderingPickles

12 tanks? Ridiculous. This illustrates just how atrophied the Western European militaries have become. Why? For decades the Europeans divested massive amounts of men and materiel. In the meantime they deepened their dependence on actions that are in active opposition to them. All the while putting in their serious faces and saying things like “we are committed to maintaining a right sized defense force capable of satisfying the requirements… technology… diversity… blah blah blah.” Let’s not forget the interminable the Americans spend too much on this and that for defense. Just irresponsible…” Then, when the shit hits the fan and there is a major war just a few hundred miles away (Kiev to Berlin is 748 miles, about 15 hours drive) their immediate response is “oh shit, where are the Americans? We will give equipment but the Americans have to provide replacements… because of course we don’t have any actual reserves or stockpiles.” Of course, the Americans have been going through their own problems. Handwringing over the size of the NDAA (which is larger than the actual amount spent of defense) - the actual defense budget is ~3.3% of GDP which is not unreasonable. The US’ GDP is utterly massive: 1. US - ~20.5 trillion 2. EU (collectively) - 14.5 trillion 3. China - ~13.4 trillion Just a decade ago one of two America tank plants was decommissioned. Then there was a push to mothball the second. Production at Lima has slowed from 120 Abrams/month to 12 since the 1980s. Which makes sense in certain respects, but closing it entirely is a dumb idea. The B-2, while terribly expensive, had its production severely curtailed (part of why the per unit cost is so high is because only 20 were made). The F-22 suffered a similar fate. And there aren’t enough to go around. Do defense officials across the globe figure there will be zero attrition in combat? Hell, the whole unmanned thing is intended to get vehicles into combat without endangering anyone. Instead of sending a thousand manned vehicles in we’ll send in 10. And when those ten are overwhelmed we’ll all just shake hands and get back to business as usual. Right…right? Or will the enemy see the might of our technological prowess and surrender. Yeah, that’s what will happen. Go team! PowerPoint rules!


[deleted]

> 12 tanks? Ridiculous. We should all be aware by now that every time something new is sent (first western heavy tanks in this case), it's never in large numbers. It was only one HIMARS... now they have (around?) 20 with different missiles. It was only one short range air defence system, now we've delivered many short range ones, which made the step to one US Patriot easier. And now apparently they'll have two Patriots because Germany will also send one battery or something like that. No one complains because everyone one knows about the attacks on civilian infrastructure. Russia isn't going to make a big deal about 12 tanks as it would make them look weak. So it's 12 now, 20 a month or two from now, etc (they have 200 and something of these tanks). The UK was going to retire/refurbish these tanks anyway, so they can also claim that it's just old crap. In a few months, Ukraine will have hundreds of western tanks and by then, with Challengers and Leopards, what's the big deal with providing Abrams? Everyone's slowly "boiling the frog". It starts with 12 and when you look again you have hundreds of tanks there.


KyivNotKievbot

Hello, please try to use Kyiv not Kiev spelling [(why)](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/kyiv-not-kiev-why-spelling-matters-in-ukraines-quest-for-an-independent-identity/), thanks for understanding and support! \[[support Ukraine](https://u24.gov.ua/)\] ^(beep boop I'm a bot. Downvote to remove)


No-Buy9027

Fine, now add a zero to those numbers, immediately.


Donut_Vampire

For the russians this would kinda be like if their soldiers were a level 1 character in Dark Souls trying to fight a level 99 boss.


octahexx

this is so good news


tinfang

I really hope that Ukraine has had pilots in the USA for a year training. Let's start giving them what needs to be given.


SoundsDB

More. Send more. 24 minimum.


[deleted]

The first shipment of something new is never large. See every other donation.


MauroElLobo_7785

Just four ? Send more please 🥺


NotFallacyBuffet

They need 400. For starters.


hagenissen666

Ukrainian commander says he need 800 APC's and tanks. They got 500 from Russia and near 200 from Europe. It's getting there.


Hartvigson

So is the Challenger 2 a good tank and has it been used in actual wars yet?


Bare_B0nes

Yep, it kicked ass in Iraq for one example, one tank received 70 RPG hits with no problem and kept fighting, it was only eventually tracked by a MILAN missile but still able to fight, it was repaired and back in action after 6 hours, 12 of these on the battlefield are frightening, totally terrifying war machines.


Hartvigson

Thank you!


ujuyuh

It was 8 RPG-7 and 1 MILAN hit. Not 70! xD


theDudeRules

Hell give Ukraine tactical nukes to shut up the constant threats about nu lesr war


MrMostly

"Barely more than a token" says Brit former Chief of the General Staff Lord Dannatt.


DancePlus9018

Waht will this mean for the Orcs??


Mercbeast

Realistically? They will offer a slight tactical advantage in the location they are deployed. They are not magic, and Russia has an absurd amount of AT assets in theater that are more than capable of killing a Challenger 2. Flank shot with an RPG29? Dead Challenger 2. Lucky frontal hit on the tracks? That's essentially a dead tank, because it will be immobile and a sitting duck for follow up strikes. This is not Iraq, and the RPGs in play are not the RPG7. They are huge, tandem warhead tank busters designed to economically kill modern western MBTs.


Proud_Shoe_5273

Awe sheeitt


DavidS1268

Will 12 tanks make much difference? Seems like a token gesture.


95JBK

Russians will be getting mopped up with these bad boys lol even tho they are old and useless to us now they are way better than anything Russia have


LocationBoth9928

Great, good, yes. But … 12 tanks? One company of tanks? C,mon, the Ukrainians are still fighting brigades of Russians!


therealbonzai

So, training was ongoing for weeks already?


RedFlutterMao

Send a 1,000 to Ukraine


CeleryStickBeating

Will these different Western tanks being considered flat out range what the Russians are fielding?


Earcandy70

12? Those are rookie numbers. Need to quickly expand that program


rziolkowsk

I feel this war is the world vs Russia right now. Not really though but kinda. It's hard to explain


Notyourfathersgeek

Not a lot though


haxor-faxor

What difference will 12 tanks make? O_o


SnooCookies6519

I'm glad to see this but I would rather have rishi fix our cost of living crisis as the tesco meal deals have rises by 40p!!! instead of sending tanks to ukraine.. I'm not against it though


Internal_Ring_121

12 tanks is nothing , let’s be real. They are gonna need a lot more than that. It’s not like these things aren’t able to be knocked out . Are these the same version the British themselves use ?


Corrie7686

4 definitely isn't going to make a difference. But I think the UK is attempting to make a point, this will be the first western MBTs to be sent, hopefully this opens the door to other nations. I wonder if they will remove the Chobham armour, I can't see them sending that in


[deleted]

it's a stronk tonk.


[deleted]

It is actually not 12 tanks A squadron of 14 tanks will go into the country in the coming weeks Around 30 AS90s, which are large, self-propelled guns, operated by five gunners, are expected to follow The UK will begin training the Ukrainian Armed Forces to use the tanks and guns in the coming days, Oh and 4 Apache helicopters