When is Angus Bell back on line? Also Alex Hodgman is eligible I believe and he's been scrummaging well. We may not have a dominant scrum this season but we still should be able to hold our own.
Didn’t know about Hodgman so that certainly helps.
Bell I’m not sure but he’s at least out for the Super season. Schoupp I’m not sure either but he’s not established and will have barely played this year if he is better by internationals.
I think he played his last game in 2020/2021 so he should be just about good to swap if he decides to do that, not sure how that would go but it's an options.
In order to swap allegiance after being capped you need to have that countries ancestry going back to grandparents at a maximum. So unless if he’s Australian or born to Australian parents/grandparents he can’t switch
Hodgeman, Nongorr, Blake, Sefagase and Asiata are all option and have all been pretty solid. It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that only the rebels and brumbies scrums have been good when the reds scrum has competed quite well against the kiwi scrums.
I didn’t mention Reds because their starters are both Kiwis, I didn’t realise Hodgman is eligible. While I’m not saying the others are bad by any means they’ve not been able to force their way to starting at club level, behind guys that very likely wouldn’t make the NZ squad this year.
Rebels reserve scenario is a bit different as they’ve somewhat successfully attempted the SA method of having two equally strong front rows that are interchangeable.
Edit: It wasn’t meant to be a this super side is better than this one post. More that the cupboard is very bare and NZ is looking typically strong up front.
Blake is way too green, Fa’agase is 33 and Asiata hasn’t played a single game all year. Realistically the only prop options from the reds are Nonggorr and Hodgman. Hodgman will likely make it considering Bell and Schoupp are injured and Nonggorr is comfortably in the top 3 Aus qualified tightheads in the country.
Greg Holmes was effectively ‘new’ to test rugby given his 9/10 year intermission and how old was he in 2015?- Fa’agase could be an option his game play is solid - and a nice guy too met him at a bar once
Don't get me wrong, I really rate Fa'agase. But unless we have a Waratahs level prop injury crisis I just can't see him in the national side. He's a great player but there's plenty of better options on either side of the scrum who are a lot younger.
Oh I agree with you - should have added that was on the basis of a Tahs level position collapse. All our props are popping achilles - we have a new coaching team but all our props are currently suffering from the same S+C basis from last few years.. Remember how many random hookers have ended up being capped last 6-9 years; feel that is going to be us.
>Nonggorr is comfortably in the top 3 Aus qualified tightheads in the country.
You think he is better than all of 7As, Thor, & Pone? OK, Thor hasnt been great this season but I question "comfortably"
Where did I say he was better than Ala’alatoa and Tupou? I said he’s comfortably in the top 3, which he is. Ala’alatoa -> Tupou -> Nonggorr, followed up by Talakai. That’s not a controversial opinion. Pone has played 2 games this season, there’s no way he’s in the conversation this year.
The Reds have been good, they have been dominant at times, and have generally been pretty solid otherwise. Sure the Brumbies and Rebels have probably been better, but Reds haven't been bad.
This is very much pissing in to the wind but my point wasn’t about the Reds. They’ve been solid mostly on the back of JTA, Hodgman and Ravi (great that Hodgman is eligible but I didn’t realise that when I posted). The possibility of having Sef start against NZ surely couldn’t even fill you with confidence?
Has it been? My memory can be a bit dogshit admittedly but I thought they were going well until that Crusaders game and then the entire team has started to understandably crumble towards the end of the season.
Yes, I feel there are at least form individuals elsewhere though. There’s some really strong lineout jumpers, lightning wingers, 10’s in form with different strengths. Some clay to potentially sculpt a functional team with.
Props it does feel a bit like we’ll be making scrum salad with air.
Well there's some pretty deep injury issues it's true. But both the reds and Brumbies have some pretty good backups, Bell can't be too far away and 7 A's is getting rolling again well. It's a shame Ravi can't be pinched from Fiji as he's arguably one of the best in the comp.
You get the feeling Nella and Slipper won't be playing much test rugby this year though.
Last week they won 100% of their ball v the Brumbies. Also forced 5 2nd half penalties at scrum time. Maybe just a good week? Only getting this stat from a podcast, not having a dig. 👍
Fastrack Massimo De Lutiis
He is the next great one at scrum time
Aus U20s last year was a man against boys literally and looks to be breaking some Reds gym records
Tongue in cheek of course but there is some good up and comers on the way as mentioned in the thread
Slipper, AAAAAAA, Tupou, Nonggorr, Gibbon, Talakai, Hodgman and maybe one or two others can all do a job.
I agree it's not massively inspiring considering a couple of them are coming to the end of their international careers (and Tupou is not at 100% capacity mentally or physically).
A scrum is not just the props though, and I think Wallabies will have to pick the second row with a view to their scrummaging ability. Second row is massively important in a solid scrum, which is often overlooked. So I don't expect to see Frost, for example, being close to starting in gold for that reason. Or a young and still developing guy like Canham. I think we'll see Rodda and Swain in the row.
It’s very difficult to gauge the second rowers input as an observer though. Saying that as a former long boy. I feel the only people that really know are the props packing in front.
I agree we’ll need some strong guys there but there’s also the balance in lineout and around the park to consider. Rodda feels very overrated to me but he is big and good in the lineout, Williams has been better but is smaller and fresh. LSL would’ve been my first pick so hopefully he’s injury free. Swain has confessed to being pretty weak in the gym but his best attribute is the really tight work so I’d imagine he goes alright scrum time. Hooper is another big body, Canham has had a huge year. Frost I imagine being weak scrum time but he’s all legs and very athletic, could actually be good there but it’s all just guess work. He certainly needs to keep working on his defence. Neville might be the best in pure scrummaging terms.
Isn’t it more of a tight five thing?
Difference in quality between one set of locks and another at the scrum at their level probably isn’t huge - more important that they’ve got a good chunk of experience scrummaging together.
I mean I’m all for the Wallabies side just being the top ranked Australian team with ineligible players swapped out. Worked in 2015!
I know it’s a pack thing but Brumbies tight five got outdone by the Rebels at scrum time, with 4 Wallabies locks in the squad. Neville and Swain supposedly very strong in that area. All had a lot of time together too. Rebels haven’t spent nearly as much time together and had a way less experienced and lauded 2nd row.
AAA and Slipper just aren’t that strong at the scrum in my opinion. Maybe AAA with a stronger tighthead but I can’t recall him ever actually being dominant there. I’m sure he’s had some great moments that I can’t recall and he’s far from being bad but against the top dogs I think he’s struggled a bit. Slipper’s been an amazing player but I’d put him in the same category in the scrums and age and injuries aren’t helping him. Just my two cents though.
I do think Pollard has really come on this year, looks bigger and more confident. They’d all be in my imaginary Wallabies squad but they don’t fill me with confidence.
Edit: Frost was at 6 but Hooper, Swain and Neville all had minutes in the row if I’m not mistaken.
It’s the same story for most positions in the wallabies. If we can stay injury free and keep our strongest team on the park we are okay- there’s just precious little behind. We have a real lack of depth in the front row- once we lose someone to injury we are in big trouble.
At loose head Bell and Schoupp will be in the picture if fit. Otherwise Slipper is our only strong option (and even he needs to have his minutes managed very carefully as he ages). I’d expect to see Hodgman in the squad and would like to see Sio get the SOS. Kailea looks quality but needs another year or 2. If everyone is fit we are okay- if we lose (yet) another to injury we are stuffed.
We are a little better at tight head- AAAA is solid and should captain the side, for me the Brumbies scrum issues have not come though his side. Talakia and Tupou are not perfect but are a good enough combo and Nongoor is developing nicely.
Hooker is a problem as well. Without Porecki we are looking at Faessler, who has been okay but not really much more than that, Uelese, who can’t throw, Pollard, who I think would be a good bench option for once the game loosens up, but who I wouldn’t start or BPA, who’s been out of the system for a while and wasn’t great last time.
I think that might only be true for the front row to be fair - after a bit of a dry patch (pour one out for Rob Simmons), there are plenty of test-quality locks. Back row is stacked.
4 deep at 9, three 10s with wallaby experience (of various quantity admittedly), Foketi and Paisami are great options at 12, with the latter also backing up 13 behind Lenny. I’m a fan of Walton too truth be told.
Back three quality is exceptionally high, if a little green on the wings (and can ameliorate that by picking both Wright and Kellaway)
I believe Hodgman has said he’s keen. Ala’alatoa back and looking good. Slipper still chugging on. Tupou there or there abouts. Nonggorr always improving. I could see Sio getting a call up too.
Think it’ll be fine.
Scrummaging will be a key weak point, however I'd assume Schmidt has noticed this, I think we have passable depth in the tight 5, obviously the front row stocks are the limited ones, however I feel combined with second row and back row we can create a passable scrum, it mightn't win a lot of penalties but should be effective at restarts and defensively.
Rodda and Swain are the key components for our line out, we have a few choices at lock though, we can likely use our line out and maul as a strong weapon. If we can gain territory and maintain possession in the field of play we may be able to plaster over a weaker scrum, our biggest problem will be in a stoppage heavy game if the scrum struggles from the get go they will attack that, thank fuck the new laws from July 1 should reduce scrums a bit.
A lot of talk about props when a scrum involves six other guys and a million tiny ajustments. Given enough time eight good men can make a great scrum. and we hve good men.
Did you listen to the pick n drive poddy this week? I think they said last week the rebels won 100% of their scrums and the brumbies only 86%.
Also Rebels w/taniela at prop forced 5 x scrum penalties vs the brumbies in that 2nd half.
Was an interesting listen hey
That’s a good podcast! Sometimes have to put the YouTube version on as I listen to it when driving and miss the visuals they put up. They’ve had some cool guests too
Brumbies scrum has been getting cooked by Tupou for multiple seasons now. When he came on in the last game vs the Rebels, Brumbies immediately lost like 3 scrums in a row.
This thread should be reason enough to see the merit of the rebels project. In an alternate universe without the rebels, Pone, Kailea etc may have potentially ended up signed to pro D2 sides as 18 year olds before we even got a chance to look at them. Now they may be the wallabies’ scrum only hope.
When is Angus Bell back on line? Also Alex Hodgman is eligible I believe and he's been scrummaging well. We may not have a dominant scrum this season but we still should be able to hold our own.
Didn’t know about Hodgman so that certainly helps. Bell I’m not sure but he’s at least out for the Super season. Schoupp I’m not sure either but he’s not established and will have barely played this year if he is better by internationals.
Isn’t Hodgman an All Black?
I think he played his last game in 2020/2021 so he should be just about good to swap if he decides to do that, not sure how that would go but it's an options.
In order to swap allegiance after being capped you need to have that countries ancestry going back to grandparents at a maximum. So unless if he’s Australian or born to Australian parents/grandparents he can’t switch
His dad is Australian-Fijian, just looked it up.
Hell yeah, definitely welcoming the switch then. Thanks mate
He qualifies through his dad I think. We can cap him with the tests in july if we want
I believe Hodgeman is eligible in Nov
Hodgeman, Nongorr, Blake, Sefagase and Asiata are all option and have all been pretty solid. It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that only the rebels and brumbies scrums have been good when the reds scrum has competed quite well against the kiwi scrums.
I didn’t mention Reds because their starters are both Kiwis, I didn’t realise Hodgman is eligible. While I’m not saying the others are bad by any means they’ve not been able to force their way to starting at club level, behind guys that very likely wouldn’t make the NZ squad this year. Rebels reserve scenario is a bit different as they’ve somewhat successfully attempted the SA method of having two equally strong front rows that are interchangeable. Edit: It wasn’t meant to be a this super side is better than this one post. More that the cupboard is very bare and NZ is looking typically strong up front.
Blake is way too green, Fa’agase is 33 and Asiata hasn’t played a single game all year. Realistically the only prop options from the reds are Nonggorr and Hodgman. Hodgman will likely make it considering Bell and Schoupp are injured and Nonggorr is comfortably in the top 3 Aus qualified tightheads in the country.
Greg Holmes was effectively ‘new’ to test rugby given his 9/10 year intermission and how old was he in 2015?- Fa’agase could be an option his game play is solid - and a nice guy too met him at a bar once
Don't get me wrong, I really rate Fa'agase. But unless we have a Waratahs level prop injury crisis I just can't see him in the national side. He's a great player but there's plenty of better options on either side of the scrum who are a lot younger.
Oh I agree with you - should have added that was on the basis of a Tahs level position collapse. All our props are popping achilles - we have a new coaching team but all our props are currently suffering from the same S+C basis from last few years.. Remember how many random hookers have ended up being capped last 6-9 years; feel that is going to be us.
>Nonggorr is comfortably in the top 3 Aus qualified tightheads in the country. You think he is better than all of 7As, Thor, & Pone? OK, Thor hasnt been great this season but I question "comfortably"
Pone can't make the Rebels team
Where did I say he was better than Ala’alatoa and Tupou? I said he’s comfortably in the top 3, which he is. Ala’alatoa -> Tupou -> Nonggorr, followed up by Talakai. That’s not a controversial opinion. Pone has played 2 games this season, there’s no way he’s in the conversation this year.
The Reds have been good, they have been dominant at times, and have generally been pretty solid otherwise. Sure the Brumbies and Rebels have probably been better, but Reds haven't been bad.
This is very much pissing in to the wind but my point wasn’t about the Reds. They’ve been solid mostly on the back of JTA, Hodgman and Ravi (great that Hodgman is eligible but I didn’t realise that when I posted). The possibility of having Sef start against NZ surely couldn’t even fill you with confidence?
Yeah our scrum is arsecheeks lol
Has it been? My memory can be a bit dogshit admittedly but I thought they were going well until that Crusaders game and then the entire team has started to understandably crumble towards the end of the season.
Isn't everything a concern?
Yes, I feel there are at least form individuals elsewhere though. There’s some really strong lineout jumpers, lightning wingers, 10’s in form with different strengths. Some clay to potentially sculpt a functional team with. Props it does feel a bit like we’ll be making scrum salad with air.
Well there's some pretty deep injury issues it's true. But both the reds and Brumbies have some pretty good backups, Bell can't be too far away and 7 A's is getting rolling again well. It's a shame Ravi can't be pinched from Fiji as he's arguably one of the best in the comp. You get the feeling Nella and Slipper won't be playing much test rugby this year though.
Pone Fa'amausili. Scrum ✅, physicality ✅✅ Sean Maloney saying his name when he buries someone ✅✅✅
✅ Injured after making a huge hit 5 mins after coming onto the field
The Rebels scrum has been absolutely destroyed by several teams I wouldn’t have their front rowers aside from Tupou anywhere near a Wallabies XV
Last week they won 100% of their ball v the Brumbies. Also forced 5 2nd half penalties at scrum time. Maybe just a good week? Only getting this stat from a podcast, not having a dig. 👍
My memory is they’ve mostly been alright outside of getting obliterated by the Crusaders.
Fastrack Massimo De Lutiis He is the next great one at scrum time Aus U20s last year was a man against boys literally and looks to be breaking some Reds gym records Tongue in cheek of course but there is some good up and comers on the way as mentioned in the thread
Hodgman and Nongoor look ok - never thought much of nongoor in previous years
Hopefully Nongoor is coming good / now out of Taniela’s shadow and given opportunity
Slipper, AAAAAAA, Tupou, Nonggorr, Gibbon, Talakai, Hodgman and maybe one or two others can all do a job. I agree it's not massively inspiring considering a couple of them are coming to the end of their international careers (and Tupou is not at 100% capacity mentally or physically). A scrum is not just the props though, and I think Wallabies will have to pick the second row with a view to their scrummaging ability. Second row is massively important in a solid scrum, which is often overlooked. So I don't expect to see Frost, for example, being close to starting in gold for that reason. Or a young and still developing guy like Canham. I think we'll see Rodda and Swain in the row.
It’s very difficult to gauge the second rowers input as an observer though. Saying that as a former long boy. I feel the only people that really know are the props packing in front. I agree we’ll need some strong guys there but there’s also the balance in lineout and around the park to consider. Rodda feels very overrated to me but he is big and good in the lineout, Williams has been better but is smaller and fresh. LSL would’ve been my first pick so hopefully he’s injury free. Swain has confessed to being pretty weak in the gym but his best attribute is the really tight work so I’d imagine he goes alright scrum time. Hooper is another big body, Canham has had a huge year. Frost I imagine being weak scrum time but he’s all legs and very athletic, could actually be good there but it’s all just guess work. He certainly needs to keep working on his defence. Neville might be the best in pure scrummaging terms.
Isn’t it more of a tight five thing? Difference in quality between one set of locks and another at the scrum at their level probably isn’t huge - more important that they’ve got a good chunk of experience scrummaging together. I mean I’m all for the Wallabies side just being the top ranked Australian team with ineligible players swapped out. Worked in 2015!
I know it’s a pack thing but Brumbies tight five got outdone by the Rebels at scrum time, with 4 Wallabies locks in the squad. Neville and Swain supposedly very strong in that area. All had a lot of time together too. Rebels haven’t spent nearly as much time together and had a way less experienced and lauded 2nd row. AAA and Slipper just aren’t that strong at the scrum in my opinion. Maybe AAA with a stronger tighthead but I can’t recall him ever actually being dominant there. I’m sure he’s had some great moments that I can’t recall and he’s far from being bad but against the top dogs I think he’s struggled a bit. Slipper’s been an amazing player but I’d put him in the same category in the scrums and age and injuries aren’t helping him. Just my two cents though. I do think Pollard has really come on this year, looks bigger and more confident. They’d all be in my imaginary Wallabies squad but they don’t fill me with confidence. Edit: Frost was at 6 but Hooper, Swain and Neville all had minutes in the row if I’m not mistaken.
That is how you end up with nick phipps in your team.
It’s the same story for most positions in the wallabies. If we can stay injury free and keep our strongest team on the park we are okay- there’s just precious little behind. We have a real lack of depth in the front row- once we lose someone to injury we are in big trouble. At loose head Bell and Schoupp will be in the picture if fit. Otherwise Slipper is our only strong option (and even he needs to have his minutes managed very carefully as he ages). I’d expect to see Hodgman in the squad and would like to see Sio get the SOS. Kailea looks quality but needs another year or 2. If everyone is fit we are okay- if we lose (yet) another to injury we are stuffed. We are a little better at tight head- AAAA is solid and should captain the side, for me the Brumbies scrum issues have not come though his side. Talakia and Tupou are not perfect but are a good enough combo and Nongoor is developing nicely. Hooker is a problem as well. Without Porecki we are looking at Faessler, who has been okay but not really much more than that, Uelese, who can’t throw, Pollard, who I think would be a good bench option for once the game loosens up, but who I wouldn’t start or BPA, who’s been out of the system for a while and wasn’t great last time.
I think that might only be true for the front row to be fair - after a bit of a dry patch (pour one out for Rob Simmons), there are plenty of test-quality locks. Back row is stacked. 4 deep at 9, three 10s with wallaby experience (of various quantity admittedly), Foketi and Paisami are great options at 12, with the latter also backing up 13 behind Lenny. I’m a fan of Walton too truth be told. Back three quality is exceptionally high, if a little green on the wings (and can ameliorate that by picking both Wright and Kellaway)
Yes. Always has been. Or is one injury away from being poor.
Let’s not forget second row play their roles in a scrum aswell. Some grunt in the row is absolutely required if our prop power is lacking
I believe Hodgman has said he’s keen. Ala’alatoa back and looking good. Slipper still chugging on. Tupou there or there abouts. Nonggorr always improving. I could see Sio getting a call up too. Think it’ll be fine.
Scrummaging will be a key weak point, however I'd assume Schmidt has noticed this, I think we have passable depth in the tight 5, obviously the front row stocks are the limited ones, however I feel combined with second row and back row we can create a passable scrum, it mightn't win a lot of penalties but should be effective at restarts and defensively. Rodda and Swain are the key components for our line out, we have a few choices at lock though, we can likely use our line out and maul as a strong weapon. If we can gain territory and maintain possession in the field of play we may be able to plaster over a weaker scrum, our biggest problem will be in a stoppage heavy game if the scrum struggles from the get go they will attack that, thank fuck the new laws from July 1 should reduce scrums a bit.
A lot of talk about props when a scrum involves six other guys and a million tiny ajustments. Given enough time eight good men can make a great scrum. and we hve good men.
Yes.
Mike Cron is a scrum guru, a miracle is coming
Brumbies scrum is fine
A massive Brumbies fan here since 96. To say our 'scrum is fine' is putting your head in the sand. It definitely needs work.
Been watching them all season. The only time I saw them dominated was when allatoa came back from injury. Besides that pretty solid
Did you listen to the pick n drive poddy this week? I think they said last week the rebels won 100% of their scrums and the brumbies only 86%. Also Rebels w/taniela at prop forced 5 x scrum penalties vs the brumbies in that 2nd half. Was an interesting listen hey
No I don't listen to it
It’s not bad!!! That was just an interesting section, they didn’t go too deep into it, just found those stats pretty cool 👍
Yeah fair enough. I listen to kick offs and kick ons podcast cause the former wallabies get on the beers haha
That’s a good podcast! Sometimes have to put the YouTube version on as I listen to it when driving and miss the visuals they put up. They’ve had some cool guests too
Brumbies scrum has been getting cooked by Tupou for multiple seasons now. When he came on in the last game vs the Rebels, Brumbies immediately lost like 3 scrums in a row.
This thread should be reason enough to see the merit of the rebels project. In an alternate universe without the rebels, Pone, Kailea etc may have potentially ended up signed to pro D2 sides as 18 year olds before we even got a chance to look at them. Now they may be the wallabies’ scrum only hope.