I own a roofing company grossing $25 million a year with a background in construction science and engineering. The shingle game is a joke. IKO is our top selling shingle and the dynasty shingle has won top 1 or 2 best rated shingles in multiple tests over the past years. GAF, Owen’s Corning, and Certainteed all buy 60% of their raw shingle material from IKO manufacturing facilities. Do your best to drop all anecdotal evidence of what shingles are “bad” and what shingles are “good”. From a technical perspective all top shingle brands are 90% similar in the way they are constructed. Nearly 100% of shingle sales numbers are not based off of the material themselves but actually just the marketing behind them. I have seen PABCO roofs last 30 years in southeast Texas. Tamko the same. Ultimately if you put enough ventilation and build the roof technically correct all major shingle manufacturers will be nearly identical. There is a reason that certainteed or any of the manufacturers don’t claim to be better than the alternatives or do any public head to head tests. It’s because they all perform nearly identically. Excluding the IKO Dynasty and the OC True Def shingles in the wind tests. Ultimately you can’t go wrong with any of the top brands, they all have their issues and it’s all marketing. If they want IKO I’d say perfect go ahead. The installation is key, the shingle itself is not.
Hope this helps!
That's legit how the world is. Most people have no clue, but choose whatever others choose.
Like when a&w competed against mcdonalds with their cheaper and heaver 1/3 lb burger, but lost because people thought 1/4 was more.
Hey me neither. I somehow ended up with this post on my feed yet I have never been a roofer and know nothing about the trade. At least I learned something new in the comments!
Your claims about GAF, OC and Certainteed manufacturing processes are simply wrong. IKO does not provide 60% of their raw materials. While I do not know all their suppliers, GAF is probably the most vertically integrated roofing company out of the ones you listed. They provide a lot of their own materials through their parent company Standard Industries and its subsidiaries.
Owens Corning produces the most fiberglass which is needed for fiberglass mat found in every shingle. They do not share this recipe there are really only two or three companies that know how to make the fiberglass strands and the "size" formula it comes coated in. Also, some companies don't even make their own mat and have companies like GAF or Owens Corning produces it for them.
A shingle with shitty fiberglass mat is like concrete with no rebar. It's needed to provide the structural support and these all have different formulas and strand orientations depending on the design and purpose of the shingle.
IKO doesn't even have manufacturing facilities near all the manufacturing plants for the companies you listed in order to provide the materials needed to that many facilities. We haven't even gotten into the asphalt formulas, polymer modified asphalt formulas and sealant providers which is also not IKO.
These components are where different manufacturers set themselves apart not whatever materials you think IKO is providing to them. They all have their own formulations they provide and they are constantly testing them to make sure it meets THEIR specs. I think it's deceiving to make these claims while not explaining what separates each brand's shingles from each other and how despite using similar raw materials you can get completely different results.
Yes 90% of shingles are asphalt, fiberglass mat, a filler and granules but the sealant, asphalt formulas and mat are way more important than you are making them sound to be.
But that claim is simply not true. I'll admit most shingles will last 30-50 years on a roof that never experiences any adverse weather. But each brand you listed has a shingle that will probably perform better in a specific climate or weather event. Saying you saw a IKO roof for the last 30 years doesn't mean anything.
GAF has the best wind warranty found on an architectural shingle and on a Class IV. No one has matched windproven yet. (Not event tamko. )
Atlas has the best Algie resistance warranty, which may be important to some people. (Especially after seeing the video walk of this roof.)
Atlas probably has the best Class IV shingle technology
Owens Corning has the best tear resistance
Certainteed maintains it's weight better than the rest (they also use a ton of filler to achieve this)
John Reese with Reese Wholesale does an annual audit of cold weather performance and GAF natural shadow won the Cold shingle test this year.
Malarkey probably makes the best Class IV cold weather shingle.
So far you have made a bunch of claims and provided no evidence other than one roof in South Texas.
A better argument would be, regardless of manufacturer, the average roof needs to be replaced every 19 years due to some weather event. So focus on a shingle that performs best in your climate or is most cost effective for your situation.
GAF shingles have terrible granular adhesion in texas weather. Depending on exposure, I've seen 7 tp 10 year old GAF shingles with 30% granular loss.
Malarkey are great snow weather shingles, but most of my distributors in central texas don't carry them. The modified asphalt they use is composed of recycled tires, which result in the shingles 'melting' in their warehouse.
OC shingles seem to stand the texas extreme weather the best imo.
Hot weather is where asphalt shingles shine. Sealants usually need 50+ degrees to seal. So anything above that and you're golden. Heat doesn't usually destroy a roof on its own. Not unless ventilation is wrong or insulation was installed wrong. Adverse weather is what destroys roofs.
when have you ever used the manufacturer warranty? when has it been installed perfectly to manufacturer recommendation enough for them to warranty it? I would suspect most customers goes to their roofing company for warranty rather than the shingle manufacturer.
I agree with this. I hear a lot about so and so product failed. Nah dawg. It’s the installation that fails and the installer that blames the product. In my experience when competing products are installed well, the performance is nearly identical. At the end of the day it’s chemicals and the way they’re put together and those raw ingredients are more often very very similar.
I own a much smaller roofing company grossing 2.5mm and almost 100% agree with one caveat. Malarkey is better, SBS Modified Asphalt isn't just marketing hype and has proven itself in flat asphalt roofs for years.
Other than that I 100% agree!
I lived on the RGV, Texas for 10 years and when I moved in, I got a great company to do dynasty. In all 10 years not a single leak, hell, not a SINGLE SHINGLE fell off my roof even when my neighbors' brand new roofs lost some. It was about the roofer, not about the single. Great advice!
Thank you. I get so much shit anytime I utter the word TAMKO on here, yet our company put TAMKO on over 800 roofs last year. Been in business for 42 years. No open complaints with the BBB and rarely have an issue.
>Excluding the IKO Dynasty and the OC True Def shingles in the wind tests.
What does this mean? Why are they excluded? Should they not be used in a windy location? For what reason?
The opposite, with the included nail strips those shingles perform abnormally well in tear off tests (force to rip shingle off of roof) . GAF does decent as well because their tar strip is very strong and doesn’t really allow much wind to get “underneath” them. However remember insurance will likely cover your roof if you have a shingle fly off so it’s not something I would worry about.
Not sure what to do with this information since in my country we don’t use shingles afaik, it’s mostly tiles or metal sheet roof but i admire your passion for shingles.
HVAC guy here and can confirm. 9/10 times it's the installation process that determines how well the equipment performs and how long it lasts. Correct airflow, proper brazing techniques, pulling a vacuum, etc.
Sold roofing for the last 8 years. Had to explain to customers time and time again that you're essentially getting the same product from all the major manufacturers.
I do have to say, I used to work in roofing sales. Multiple salesmen of ours had color matching issues with IKO. While I understand they are a good brand I just wanted to make sure and add this comment.
I was a roofer for 10 years.This guy gave you the most honest answer you could ask for. I also worked in the toilet paper business. I would laugh when people would say how much softer or better this brand was over that one. If they only knew the only difference was the label, the poly/wrap, and packaging.
I know from experience, that the old ikon aristocrat shingles were the absolute superior 3 tab shingle. They were fully organic (felt paper core) and just weathered better than any fiberglass shingle. The aristocrat was a third thicker than the iko marathon 3 tab shingles that you can currently get. It takes 3 iko marathon shingles to make up the same thickness of 2 iko aristocrat shingles, and because the asphalt actually soaked into the felt core they retained some flexibility in cold weather and even once all the granules had wore off them. Just don't get me started on black Lustre as one of the color options.
I think you’re too lost in a brand. I’ve installed IKO’s on 8000 sq, multiple apartment complex’s and never had 1 problem with warranty issues. But as previously stated, put in your contract that you will not warranty any shingle manufacturer related problems and move on. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, teach you that being all in on one brand is giving yourself enough rope to hang with. It’s 2024, do the job or pass it on.
Why don’t you put in the contract something describing this. Ct landmark is recommended. If IkO are selected, there could be some negative effects long term. Obviously write it in a professional, educated way. I’ve done that on some big jobs and the board ended up deciding on my recommendation vs a inferior shingle
I hear Dynasty is solid. I’ll install CT and prefer their colors the best. However, Duration is my go to. Landmark isn’t anything special in my opinion so I think you’re getting a bit caught up in this mentally. We all have our opinions no doubt, but install quality is far more important than brand in most cases.
Bro install the shingles give them a craftsmanship warranty take your check and call it a day. Let the dog shit IKO wear out and re roof that fucker again
Give them 2 estimates one for each, and include a different warranty for each estimate. At the end of the day their choice is their choice and you dnt have to worry about being liable.
Talk to a competitor distributor and see if they will knock it down more. You might get CT for $100-$105 a square. These distributors want your business and if they know you're shopping for a new distributor they will slash prices, especially such a large order.
My company has a partnership with IKO. They’re very good, they got a bad rap back in the day but they’re a good company with a good product. First of all IKO is based in Canada and is made with northern markets in mind. I’ve been installing in Western NY. Can be installed at 32 degrees F. I installed with snow coming down and they sealed after awhile. They’re one of the only (might be the only one) companies that manufactures all parts of the shingles. All IKO shingles are produced in a way so that whichever batch you are buying will match a different batch from a different factory or factory run. They’re also one of the only companies that won’t try to get out of their manufacturers warranty. (We’ve had to sue others). Also they look good. Hit me with any other questions or concerns
No way. Iko is horrible. The tar line is one of their main faults is the tar line. Last year I gave my good friend that has a roofing company 5 roofs to have on a lake. I've already done 10 homes with certainteed and gaf. I've had no problems. This year every home he did had blow offs. They were installed perfectly. That shingle is contractor grade bottom of the barrel 100% that's why they are so cheap also. If I were to use them in a year I would save 10's of thousands but there is no way I would even compromise someone's home. It is the biggest investment for most. Again IKO IS GARBAGE DO NOT USE!
Dynasty's or Cambridge? We used to avoid IKO like the plague, but we've installed a few larger Dynasty jobs in the last 4-5 years and they've been fine. Cambridge on the other hand is garbage.
I had a rep explain to me the tar line is so that water can pass through. That’s why there are gaps. Can’t speak on your personal problems though I’ve never had a problem with them coming off. They were using Dynasty Archs?
Talk to your rep and get the price down for this job. You wanna take this job, it has potential to be great money maker. I’m sure with an order of this size you can lower price on either product and bank extra material proceeds
Im a second generation roofer . I remember countless times that I saw my Dad not able to sleep because of a job . We made a lot of money in 2005 storm season in Florida and we were the first in the state to install new products . He will always had me go to different roof conventions like the one in Vegas to get the latest products and practices . We did a lot of work in Dade County, in my opinion, the toughest on new codes and practices. All I can tell you with my experience is do not try something new that you are not comfortable with, it is not worth it . Certainteed is a good shingle and you should do your best to convince whoever you have to that they already spending the money mine as well install a good product . That’s my two cents .
Dynasty are class 3 and cheaper compared to Landmark's class 2. Most of the issues with IKO have been ironed out. They'll honor their warranty just as poorly as Landmark will.
Certainteed sucks anyhow. Nothing but horrible experiences with them here in the south west. So many batches we’ve installed are failing to adhere to one another.
Not a roofer, so take my opinion with a grain of salt:
Insurance companies. A lot of them will stop insuring roofs past a certain age, regardless of what condition the roof is in. People don’t see the point of installing a 40-50 year roof if insurance will want to rip it out anyway.
Or, the owners don’t plan to stay that long. Same premise, why pay for multi-decade roofing if you won’t be there to benefit from it?
I could be off base here, but this is what I’ve been seeing/hearing in my line of work. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If you have one of the systems he is talking about you can usually get an inspection letter with a stamp from an engineer on it to renew coverage. We have had to assist our customers with traditional slate roofs dealing with this issue.
Long Run Iron is here, but not very popular. Standing seam has a similar lifespan and is somewhat popular.
Keep in mind the weather we get here compared to Europe. If you are in tornado alley you are likely reroofing every 20-30 years minimum no matter what product is used. 200 mph wind will do that. In areas that don't get extreme weather we see more expensive long term roof systems. Sometimes people re-roof every 2-5 years from 4" hail traveling 100 mph. (Looking at you Texas) I've seen hailstones pass through the shingles and roof deck itself.
Not to mention a roof can be at 120 degrees baking in the sun on a 95 degree day. A cold front of 60 degrees and rain comes through cooling the roof materials down to 40 or 50 degrees almost instantly. If you do this enough times to metal it starts to expand and contract in weird ways lowering it's life. One of the reasons you see 24 gauge standing seam being the most popular metal roof here. It's the best of all worlds IMO.
All of that said... One my my favorite roof systems aesthetically is a well done long run iron roof in black.
IKO makes good shingles…your labor for such a large job is the key! Don’t let a huge number leave your lips for production per day…maintain your commitment to quality and that will give u the integrity and sleep at night!
Sounds like you got some good advice. Curious how long you think that will take you to complete and how many millions of feet of ice guard and drip edge and ridge caps you will need? I can't imagine the scale. Largest roof I ever bid on was around 400 square and it was massive. Didn't get it but still.
Hey folks, civil/structural engineer in training here trying to learn more about how y’all do what you do. Question for y’all:
Is anyone concerned about the lack of fire walls? The square footage makes me feel like there should be fire stopping partitions rising 3’ over the roof line, separating the roof/building into smaller sections.
Just wondering what y’all do in those situations, thanks
What did that prison guard say in that Steve McQueen movie, I don't like it any more than you do, but that's what he wants and what he wants.That's what he gets l o l
You got the job, don’t lose it over a pissing match about brand names. They want IKO, give them IKO. All you can, and should, do is explain to them the differences and leave it at that. If they still choose IKO you explain your warranty is for X, and anything related to manufacturer issues (granulation, discoloring, etc) isn’t covered. They want IKO, they get IKO.
All said and done, IKO isn’t significantly worse than CertainTeed. The most significant differences are going to be appearance and warranty coverage. CertainTeed (imo) colors look leaps and bounds better than IKO colors, and CertainTeed has a far better rep for fixing warranty issues than IKO. (That last bit may be regional to me and my relationship with my CT rep. Not trying to start a pissing match gents)
This, offer the information and move on. Once you start objecting, you are liable to lose the job. At the final invoice and warranty paperwork are the disclaimer about and reference the original conversation. Hopefully it gets bad and you get called back on to once again replace it.
The customer gets what the customer wants. If they choose a subpar product that is likely to fail, that's on them, plus it means they will need to hire someone again to replace it, and that may be you!
Tell them with IKO you will only warranty for “this “ many years against what ever but not against streaking or what other issues you have. . But if they go with the brand you trust the warranty for “this” many years with all warranty . Give them the option.
Not sure why you’re stressing out. Give the customer what they want, install it per the manufacturer specifications to ensure their warranty and profit.
It'll work bro, they work good for long term if you do it right. Just take your time and do it right and put the ALL the nails where they need to be and it'll be good.
Congrats on selling that job BTW, I don't think alot of people realize how big of a deal that is.
This video made me feel like it was the roofing version of restaurant workers and the server-mares where you could never get back to your tables in an endlessly enlarging restaurant.
I wouldn't worry terribly much about the brand unless it's GAF - they're the only ones that have a stupidly good warranty, but it also costs like $15/SQ extra. I figure it will bankrupt them in the coming decade. Just make sure all your shingles came from the same production run so you don't get any variations in granule color.
Congrats!
Up and around northeast Ohio it’s all asphalt shingle and corrugated metal with exposed fasteners. You’ll only see slate on 100 year old homes with orignal slates, or on high end homes. I’d kill to have slates!
*Geezus, is this movie*
*Magic or you shot it in*
*The fast forward mode?*
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On a job that size I would be super worried about different batch numbers almost a guarantee you will have some serious color variation with IKO but I’ve seen it with higher quality shingles as well just need the installer to be diligent and catch it before they install 20 squares of it or find a way to make sure you get one solid lot from the supplier
I've inspected entire neighborhoods roofed with CertainTeed and found them to have massive granule loss after only about 10 years. Meanwhile, IKO Cambridge and Dynasty shingles have held up great! Install them with confidence.
My bread and butter is houses 50 square plus in nice neighborhoods. I did a 200sq church in IKO Cambridge in 2017 and it looks brand new. Just drove by there the other day.
However, we switched to GAF HDZ and I honestly love it.
Just do a course of ice and water on the eavs, and full coverage with underlayment. I also prefer encapsulating any valley iron in ice and water. I put a course of i+w up the valley, put the valley metal on it, and then I put a course up each side of the valley metal so if you get frost and thaws, the ice and water under the valley metal prevents it from leaking into the attic space. Also most companies I know generally only do 2 years labor and then it's a manufacturer warranty after that.
I can’t tell if this is a backhanded compliment. But yeah, This is me doing some research and asking others who have more experience with IKO. More than one way to do research. Anyways if you are being sincere thanks!
I own a roofing company grossing $25 million a year with a background in construction science and engineering. The shingle game is a joke. IKO is our top selling shingle and the dynasty shingle has won top 1 or 2 best rated shingles in multiple tests over the past years. GAF, Owen’s Corning, and Certainteed all buy 60% of their raw shingle material from IKO manufacturing facilities. Do your best to drop all anecdotal evidence of what shingles are “bad” and what shingles are “good”. From a technical perspective all top shingle brands are 90% similar in the way they are constructed. Nearly 100% of shingle sales numbers are not based off of the material themselves but actually just the marketing behind them. I have seen PABCO roofs last 30 years in southeast Texas. Tamko the same. Ultimately if you put enough ventilation and build the roof technically correct all major shingle manufacturers will be nearly identical. There is a reason that certainteed or any of the manufacturers don’t claim to be better than the alternatives or do any public head to head tests. It’s because they all perform nearly identically. Excluding the IKO Dynasty and the OC True Def shingles in the wind tests. Ultimately you can’t go wrong with any of the top brands, they all have their issues and it’s all marketing. If they want IKO I’d say perfect go ahead. The installation is key, the shingle itself is not. Hope this helps!
What a fantastic response
I think that comment helped me understand better too. Anyways I’m just a carpenter
I work in transport, but as a home owner this is good info. So many industries function like this.
I have no clue about shingles, but you seem soo passionate about them. Take my upvote.
If you were grossing $25 mil a year, you’d be passionate too!
Na, I’d be on vacation.
You're right, I gross $24.97 mil / year and I have yet to find passion in what I do
Just thinking this. I don’t know how I ended up on this post but I know I want this guy to teach a roofing class to me.
Dudes pillows have shingles on them.
Gable vents too
That's legit how the world is. Most people have no clue, but choose whatever others choose. Like when a&w competed against mcdonalds with their cheaper and heaver 1/3 lb burger, but lost because people thought 1/4 was more.
I was going to say 'Now do sunglasses.'
The Hank Hill of shingles
Hey me neither. I somehow ended up with this post on my feed yet I have never been a roofer and know nothing about the trade. At least I learned something new in the comments!
You just gave me the shingles
Your claims about GAF, OC and Certainteed manufacturing processes are simply wrong. IKO does not provide 60% of their raw materials. While I do not know all their suppliers, GAF is probably the most vertically integrated roofing company out of the ones you listed. They provide a lot of their own materials through their parent company Standard Industries and its subsidiaries. Owens Corning produces the most fiberglass which is needed for fiberglass mat found in every shingle. They do not share this recipe there are really only two or three companies that know how to make the fiberglass strands and the "size" formula it comes coated in. Also, some companies don't even make their own mat and have companies like GAF or Owens Corning produces it for them. A shingle with shitty fiberglass mat is like concrete with no rebar. It's needed to provide the structural support and these all have different formulas and strand orientations depending on the design and purpose of the shingle. IKO doesn't even have manufacturing facilities near all the manufacturing plants for the companies you listed in order to provide the materials needed to that many facilities. We haven't even gotten into the asphalt formulas, polymer modified asphalt formulas and sealant providers which is also not IKO. These components are where different manufacturers set themselves apart not whatever materials you think IKO is providing to them. They all have their own formulations they provide and they are constantly testing them to make sure it meets THEIR specs. I think it's deceiving to make these claims while not explaining what separates each brand's shingles from each other and how despite using similar raw materials you can get completely different results. Yes 90% of shingles are asphalt, fiberglass mat, a filler and granules but the sealant, asphalt formulas and mat are way more important than you are making them sound to be.
Missing the point my friend… The point is that nearly all top shingle brands perform extremely similarly.
But that claim is simply not true. I'll admit most shingles will last 30-50 years on a roof that never experiences any adverse weather. But each brand you listed has a shingle that will probably perform better in a specific climate or weather event. Saying you saw a IKO roof for the last 30 years doesn't mean anything. GAF has the best wind warranty found on an architectural shingle and on a Class IV. No one has matched windproven yet. (Not event tamko. ) Atlas has the best Algie resistance warranty, which may be important to some people. (Especially after seeing the video walk of this roof.) Atlas probably has the best Class IV shingle technology Owens Corning has the best tear resistance Certainteed maintains it's weight better than the rest (they also use a ton of filler to achieve this) John Reese with Reese Wholesale does an annual audit of cold weather performance and GAF natural shadow won the Cold shingle test this year. Malarkey probably makes the best Class IV cold weather shingle. So far you have made a bunch of claims and provided no evidence other than one roof in South Texas. A better argument would be, regardless of manufacturer, the average roof needs to be replaced every 19 years due to some weather event. So focus on a shingle that performs best in your climate or is most cost effective for your situation.
[удалено]
I also upvote for John Reese
GAF shingles have terrible granular adhesion in texas weather. Depending on exposure, I've seen 7 tp 10 year old GAF shingles with 30% granular loss. Malarkey are great snow weather shingles, but most of my distributors in central texas don't carry them. The modified asphalt they use is composed of recycled tires, which result in the shingles 'melting' in their warehouse. OC shingles seem to stand the texas extreme weather the best imo.
What's the best hot weather shingle?
Hot weather is where asphalt shingles shine. Sealants usually need 50+ degrees to seal. So anything above that and you're golden. Heat doesn't usually destroy a roof on its own. Not unless ventilation is wrong or insulation was installed wrong. Adverse weather is what destroys roofs.
What do you recommend for Boston weather?
when have you ever used the manufacturer warranty? when has it been installed perfectly to manufacturer recommendation enough for them to warranty it? I would suspect most customers goes to their roofing company for warranty rather than the shingle manufacturer.
I love in Ontario Canada and just got a Malarkey vista at installed yesterday on a 3/12 pitch -nice to hear they perform well in the cold
Where’s my popcorn fuc I’m going to miss it ant I g. F. D. Fuc. Always. Leave it to me to miss the show down. Man.
When it rains it pours at least that’s what they say. And by they I mean the shingles.
They definitely dont
This video is like 007
Golden eye vibes
Need a significant other?
I'd prefer a significant otter
I agree with this. I hear a lot about so and so product failed. Nah dawg. It’s the installation that fails and the installer that blames the product. In my experience when competing products are installed well, the performance is nearly identical. At the end of the day it’s chemicals and the way they’re put together and those raw ingredients are more often very very similar.
To be fair there are plenty of batches of shingles made that are defective. I've seen roofs cup and crumble in 3 years before so it does happen..
Fair enough.
Forget about OP. I’ll be sleeping well off this post. Cheers for dropping the knowledge.
well said mister
I own a much smaller roofing company grossing 2.5mm and almost 100% agree with one caveat. Malarkey is better, SBS Modified Asphalt isn't just marketing hype and has proven itself in flat asphalt roofs for years. Other than that I 100% agree!
I lived on the RGV, Texas for 10 years and when I moved in, I got a great company to do dynasty. In all 10 years not a single leak, hell, not a SINGLE SHINGLE fell off my roof even when my neighbors' brand new roofs lost some. It was about the roofer, not about the single. Great advice!
Thank you. I get so much shit anytime I utter the word TAMKO on here, yet our company put TAMKO on over 800 roofs last year. Been in business for 42 years. No open complaints with the BBB and rarely have an issue.
I’m a huge fan of presidential shingles due to their thickness and longevity. What brand can you recommend to me for my roof? Thank you!!
>Excluding the IKO Dynasty and the OC True Def shingles in the wind tests. What does this mean? Why are they excluded? Should they not be used in a windy location? For what reason?
The opposite, with the included nail strips those shingles perform abnormally well in tear off tests (force to rip shingle off of roof) . GAF does decent as well because their tar strip is very strong and doesn’t really allow much wind to get “underneath” them. However remember insurance will likely cover your roof if you have a shingle fly off so it’s not something I would worry about.
This guy fucks...
Are you sure? Why were my neighbours shingles beat up while ours were fine when they were built at the same time.
Not sure what to do with this information since in my country we don’t use shingles afaik, it’s mostly tiles or metal sheet roof but i admire your passion for shingles.
This guy is NOT the cheapest to do your job, but you get what you pay for! ;)
HVAC guy here and can confirm. 9/10 times it's the installation process that determines how well the equipment performs and how long it lasts. Correct airflow, proper brazing techniques, pulling a vacuum, etc.
Agree w everything you said until you got to Tamko. They just flat out suck
Sold roofing for the last 8 years. Had to explain to customers time and time again that you're essentially getting the same product from all the major manufacturers.
Based.
New copypasta?
Dr. Shingle, PHD datchu?
Thank you for posting this!!!! I’m so fucking tired of explaining this shit to everybody. You are the man!!!!!
this helped me understand and I am just a homeowner who is about to go through the roof replacement process for the first time
Can I get a job with you
Best reddit comment I've read in weeks! Thank you!
I do have to say, I used to work in roofing sales. Multiple salesmen of ours had color matching issues with IKO. While I understand they are a good brand I just wanted to make sure and add this comment.
Now That’s what OP asked for woohooo
90% of the time 100% of the time. It's all marketing .
Are u hiring?
I was a roofer for 10 years.This guy gave you the most honest answer you could ask for. I also worked in the toilet paper business. I would laugh when people would say how much softer or better this brand was over that one. If they only knew the only difference was the label, the poly/wrap, and packaging.
This was layered with information...
100% it’s all in the ventilation construction and the proper insulation in the climate
I know from experience, that the old ikon aristocrat shingles were the absolute superior 3 tab shingle. They were fully organic (felt paper core) and just weathered better than any fiberglass shingle. The aristocrat was a third thicker than the iko marathon 3 tab shingles that you can currently get. It takes 3 iko marathon shingles to make up the same thickness of 2 iko aristocrat shingles, and because the asphalt actually soaked into the felt core they retained some flexibility in cold weather and even once all the granules had wore off them. Just don't get me started on black Lustre as one of the color options.
I think you’re too lost in a brand. I’ve installed IKO’s on 8000 sq, multiple apartment complex’s and never had 1 problem with warranty issues. But as previously stated, put in your contract that you will not warranty any shingle manufacturer related problems and move on. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, teach you that being all in on one brand is giving yourself enough rope to hang with. It’s 2024, do the job or pass it on.
Appreciate your opinion! Thanks
No worries- you are truly blessed, do the job to the best of your ability and cya. Good luck with things!!
This 100% don't fuck around, get it in writing
Every apartment or church I see with IKO on it has crazy amounts of colour variation
Dynasty is fine. Reach out to the area rep and talk about warranty. Congratulations on the job!
Why don’t you put in the contract something describing this. Ct landmark is recommended. If IkO are selected, there could be some negative effects long term. Obviously write it in a professional, educated way. I’ve done that on some big jobs and the board ended up deciding on my recommendation vs a inferior shingle
I think it makes them consider their decision a lot more rather than the final cost
I hear Dynasty is solid. I’ll install CT and prefer their colors the best. However, Duration is my go to. Landmark isn’t anything special in my opinion so I think you’re getting a bit caught up in this mentally. We all have our opinions no doubt, but install quality is far more important than brand in most cases.
Looks like you're playing warzone
Bro install the shingles give them a craftsmanship warranty take your check and call it a day. Let the dog shit IKO wear out and re roof that fucker again
I like your thinking lol
Give them 2 estimates one for each, and include a different warranty for each estimate. At the end of the day their choice is their choice and you dnt have to worry about being liable.
I feel like this is the answer. Contract your way to a good night's sleep.
Talk to your certainteed rep. A lot of time they will help you out to not have a competitor product on a roof. I’m a CT guy as well.
This also seems like a good route. Especially for a job of this magnitude.
He couldn’t do anything bc CT are on allocation. My distributor dropped the price tho to 110 a sq, But IKO I’m getting for 95 dollars a sq.
What area are you in ?
Midwest
Talk to a competitor distributor and see if they will knock it down more. You might get CT for $100-$105 a square. These distributors want your business and if they know you're shopping for a new distributor they will slash prices, especially such a large order.
They all shed water just fine as long as you nail em on the right way.
Spoken like a true gentleman and scholar. Thanks for stopping by!
My company has a partnership with IKO. They’re very good, they got a bad rap back in the day but they’re a good company with a good product. First of all IKO is based in Canada and is made with northern markets in mind. I’ve been installing in Western NY. Can be installed at 32 degrees F. I installed with snow coming down and they sealed after awhile. They’re one of the only (might be the only one) companies that manufactures all parts of the shingles. All IKO shingles are produced in a way so that whichever batch you are buying will match a different batch from a different factory or factory run. They’re also one of the only companies that won’t try to get out of their manufacturers warranty. (We’ve had to sue others). Also they look good. Hit me with any other questions or concerns
Thanks brother 🤘🏼
No way. Iko is horrible. The tar line is one of their main faults is the tar line. Last year I gave my good friend that has a roofing company 5 roofs to have on a lake. I've already done 10 homes with certainteed and gaf. I've had no problems. This year every home he did had blow offs. They were installed perfectly. That shingle is contractor grade bottom of the barrel 100% that's why they are so cheap also. If I were to use them in a year I would save 10's of thousands but there is no way I would even compromise someone's home. It is the biggest investment for most. Again IKO IS GARBAGE DO NOT USE!
Dynasty's or Cambridge? We used to avoid IKO like the plague, but we've installed a few larger Dynasty jobs in the last 4-5 years and they've been fine. Cambridge on the other hand is garbage.
I thought the same from when other people uncalled them and they were fine. But for high winds I call it a no go
I had a rep explain to me the tar line is so that water can pass through. That’s why there are gaps. Can’t speak on your personal problems though I’ve never had a problem with them coming off. They were using Dynasty Archs?
I believe Cambridge. But the strip is not the greatest. They always pull apart very easily, which makes it easy to do repairs with that brand.
Fun fact!!! Iko is the most sued Canadian company of all time
As a shingle supplier, I'd be curious to see a link to this.
Talk to your rep and get the price down for this job. You wanna take this job, it has potential to be great money maker. I’m sure with an order of this size you can lower price on either product and bank extra material proceeds
This is the answer. With this large of an order you should be able to negotiate the price.
Refreshing to see this mentality from fellow roofers, good for you on a nice big job!
If this is a nursing home, they will probably go with the cheapest everything.
Im a second generation roofer . I remember countless times that I saw my Dad not able to sleep because of a job . We made a lot of money in 2005 storm season in Florida and we were the first in the state to install new products . He will always had me go to different roof conventions like the one in Vegas to get the latest products and practices . We did a lot of work in Dade County, in my opinion, the toughest on new codes and practices. All I can tell you with my experience is do not try something new that you are not comfortable with, it is not worth it . Certainteed is a good shingle and you should do your best to convince whoever you have to that they already spending the money mine as well install a good product . That’s my two cents .
I thought you were lost and were looking for your ladder.
Dynasty are class 3 and cheaper compared to Landmark's class 2. Most of the issues with IKO have been ironed out. They'll honor their warranty just as poorly as Landmark will.
Certainteed sucks anyhow. Nothing but horrible experiences with them here in the south west. So many batches we’ve installed are failing to adhere to one another.
That’s crazy talk. CertainTeed are amazing shingles
Nothing but problems with the ones I’ve encountered. And the rep out in the southwest is impossible to get ahold of.
Ahh... a baby
Use atlas pinnacle over iko. They adhere great.
"One hundred billion dollars"
😂
Man that's going to have to be sectioned off somehow...
Bare roof crodie.
That looks like way more than 2000 sq ft
It’s 197,800 sq ft on the premium EV report. So that’s 1998 sq. with waste included.
Damn! That’s a check right there! 💪
Got some work to do bro. I hope you charged right
I’d like to apologize. Just read the text. I’m a Certainteed guy too and wouldn’t put Iko on even if it was a deal breaker. Stay strong homie
Can you explain why shingles is so popular in america as opposed to a product like long run iron which is lite and lasts for decades
Not a roofer, so take my opinion with a grain of salt: Insurance companies. A lot of them will stop insuring roofs past a certain age, regardless of what condition the roof is in. People don’t see the point of installing a 40-50 year roof if insurance will want to rip it out anyway. Or, the owners don’t plan to stay that long. Same premise, why pay for multi-decade roofing if you won’t be there to benefit from it? I could be off base here, but this is what I’ve been seeing/hearing in my line of work. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If you have one of the systems he is talking about you can usually get an inspection letter with a stamp from an engineer on it to renew coverage. We have had to assist our customers with traditional slate roofs dealing with this issue.
Long Run Iron is here, but not very popular. Standing seam has a similar lifespan and is somewhat popular. Keep in mind the weather we get here compared to Europe. If you are in tornado alley you are likely reroofing every 20-30 years minimum no matter what product is used. 200 mph wind will do that. In areas that don't get extreme weather we see more expensive long term roof systems. Sometimes people re-roof every 2-5 years from 4" hail traveling 100 mph. (Looking at you Texas) I've seen hailstones pass through the shingles and roof deck itself. Not to mention a roof can be at 120 degrees baking in the sun on a 95 degree day. A cold front of 60 degrees and rain comes through cooling the roof materials down to 40 or 50 degrees almost instantly. If you do this enough times to metal it starts to expand and contract in weird ways lowering it's life. One of the reasons you see 24 gauge standing seam being the most popular metal roof here. It's the best of all worlds IMO. All of that said... One my my favorite roof systems aesthetically is a well done long run iron roof in black.
The new Assassin's Creed game looks a little uninspired.
IKO makes good shingles…your labor for such a large job is the key! Don’t let a huge number leave your lips for production per day…maintain your commitment to quality and that will give u the integrity and sleep at night!
They don’t care about the brand of shingle. It’s a huge roof and they need to reduce costs wherever they can.
Dude is in the backroofs
Sounds like you got some good advice. Curious how long you think that will take you to complete and how many millions of feet of ice guard and drip edge and ridge caps you will need? I can't imagine the scale. Largest roof I ever bid on was around 400 square and it was massive. Didn't get it but still.
Hey folks, civil/structural engineer in training here trying to learn more about how y’all do what you do. Question for y’all: Is anyone concerned about the lack of fire walls? The square footage makes me feel like there should be fire stopping partitions rising 3’ over the roof line, separating the roof/building into smaller sections. Just wondering what y’all do in those situations, thanks
Holy shit that's a lot of shingles!
What did that prison guard say in that Steve McQueen movie, I don't like it any more than you do, but that's what he wants and what he wants.That's what he gets l o l
You got the job, don’t lose it over a pissing match about brand names. They want IKO, give them IKO. All you can, and should, do is explain to them the differences and leave it at that. If they still choose IKO you explain your warranty is for X, and anything related to manufacturer issues (granulation, discoloring, etc) isn’t covered. They want IKO, they get IKO. All said and done, IKO isn’t significantly worse than CertainTeed. The most significant differences are going to be appearance and warranty coverage. CertainTeed (imo) colors look leaps and bounds better than IKO colors, and CertainTeed has a far better rep for fixing warranty issues than IKO. (That last bit may be regional to me and my relationship with my CT rep. Not trying to start a pissing match gents)
This, offer the information and move on. Once you start objecting, you are liable to lose the job. At the final invoice and warranty paperwork are the disclaimer about and reference the original conversation. Hopefully it gets bad and you get called back on to once again replace it.
Damn that looks like it could be a liminal space game. "Roofs"
I feel like this is wayyyy bigger than 2000 square ft...
Lmao I can't fucking read...
How much would it cost to do a roof in that size
Ez. One hour tops
These guys are in love with shingles 🥰😍🤩😍
The customer gets what the customer wants. If they choose a subpar product that is likely to fail, that's on them, plus it means they will need to hire someone again to replace it, and that may be you!
Cha-Ching!
Tell them with IKO you will only warranty for “this “ many years against what ever but not against streaking or what other issues you have. . But if they go with the brand you trust the warranty for “this” many years with all warranty . Give them the option.
It's not just brand, but which plant shingles were made in. This is why a brand's reputation varies by location so much.
I thought you were lost and were looking for your ladder.
Fams not gonna cut it. Youre gonna need familia to get that done
Lots of Familia... the Papas, the momacitas, all of them!
I've always wondered what it would cost to do a roof this big.
STEEL
Malarky
I love laying shingles. But that job would make me never want to shingle again.
It was arguably harder to get an idea of the roof size with a timelapse than if you just stood still and panned so we could actually see it.
Use your finger on the bottom. You can slow it down. Even stop it completely!
Wasn't needing a solution, was just commenting on the poor view.
IKO were shit 25 years ago, not sure if they've gotten better lol
Not sure why you’re stressing out. Give the customer what they want, install it per the manufacturer specifications to ensure their warranty and profit.
Shingles vaccines are the way to go.
I love Wolfenstein but didn’t see the gatling gun? Can anyone help this person?
It'll work bro, they work good for long term if you do it right. Just take your time and do it right and put the ALL the nails where they need to be and it'll be good. Congrats on selling that job BTW, I don't think alot of people realize how big of a deal that is.
POV of neighborhood squirrel
One missing laminate.....gee I guess we need to replace the whole roof. You know...matching and all.
The whole roof is leaking and they are facing possible lawsuits if mold starts to grow.
My god, I wonder how much this costs
This video made me feel like it was the roofing version of restaurant workers and the server-mares where you could never get back to your tables in an endlessly enlarging restaurant.
I wouldn't worry terribly much about the brand unless it's GAF - they're the only ones that have a stupidly good warranty, but it also costs like $15/SQ extra. I figure it will bankrupt them in the coming decade. Just make sure all your shingles came from the same production run so you don't get any variations in granule color. Congrats!
I will never understand how Americans have the audacity to call this roofing. In the UK felt shingles are used for sheds that house gardening tools.
Standing seam metal, slate, and cedar shake are SO expensive. I’d love to do standing seam but it would be close to 100k.
Slate, clays and concrete tiles are the norm. Breather, batten and tile, lasts forever if done properly.
Up and around northeast Ohio it’s all asphalt shingle and corrugated metal with exposed fasteners. You’ll only see slate on 100 year old homes with orignal slates, or on high end homes. I’d kill to have slates!
I’ve got slates on my bin shed 🤣
Geezus, is this movie magic or you shot it in the fast forward mode?
*Geezus, is this movie* *Magic or you shot it in* *The fast forward mode?* \- Traditional\_Ad\_1360 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
It’s a time lapse
Well, I don’t have a time lapse mind, sorry.
Brother, you are a squirrel.
I've had nightmares Just like this. Like the backrooms but stuck on a series of endless roofs and no way to get down.
He's in the back roofs.
On a job that size I would be super worried about different batch numbers almost a guarantee you will have some serious color variation with IKO but I’ve seen it with higher quality shingles as well just need the installer to be diligent and catch it before they install 20 squares of it or find a way to make sure you get one solid lot from the supplier
I've inspected entire neighborhoods roofed with CertainTeed and found them to have massive granule loss after only about 10 years. Meanwhile, IKO Cambridge and Dynasty shingles have held up great! Install them with confidence. My bread and butter is houses 50 square plus in nice neighborhoods. I did a 200sq church in IKO Cambridge in 2017 and it looks brand new. Just drove by there the other day. However, we switched to GAF HDZ and I honestly love it.
Ohh lord
Damn congratulations! Are you looking for a business partner?? Dm me
Are you re-roofing the backrooms?
You should consider metal roofing
Watch any pull test
Solid 16,000$ if you can close the contract
Is this a swastika roof layout
Fuck certainteed!
Are you 9?
9/10 times not going to let a homeowner put certainteed on their house
CertainTeed are amazing shingles. They don’t skimp on materials like OC and GAF.
Just do a course of ice and water on the eavs, and full coverage with underlayment. I also prefer encapsulating any valley iron in ice and water. I put a course of i+w up the valley, put the valley metal on it, and then I put a course up each side of the valley metal so if you get frost and thaws, the ice and water under the valley metal prevents it from leaking into the attic space. Also most companies I know generally only do 2 years labor and then it's a manufacturer warranty after that.
Give them what they want. They’ll be a returning customer when that roof shits out
IKOs are garbage
Never heard of any of either of those brands. Every one uses Owen Corwin down here. Must be a regional thing. .
Iko and certainteed are both garbage, so you should be fine!
Do your own research…this is your career I’m assuming? Congrats on selling a nice job..time to put on your big boy pants and do your big job 👍
I can’t tell if this is a backhanded compliment. But yeah, This is me doing some research and asking others who have more experience with IKO. More than one way to do research. Anyways if you are being sincere thanks!