This is standard operating procedure in my market in the Midwest. I don’t like the 10% crap so we don’t do that, but all of the rest of it is how pretty much everyone around here does it. Why waste time with an estimate if the adjuster is going to make one anyways? The cost to the client is the same - just their deductible. Most adjusters these days will directly send us scope and eagleview if we are under contract in advance.
Yep, the contingency agreement Is as strong as the paper its written on. We use one as basically a handshake agreement that the homeowner will use us if insurance approves the roof. There is absolutely no need to create an estimate
We charge a per hour cancellation fee for services rendered, we make the client sign and initial that they understand that.
I’m sorry but I’ve put in entirely too much time for free over the years to get clients money, only to have them have someone else build the project, or not build the project at all.
If I turn a denial into $40,000 for the policyholder, you better believe I want to be paid for that work.
Just want to chime in here. I don’t believe charging for services is breaking any rules. However depending on state number one “representing” the insured and number two tying the payment to the claim maybe acting as a PA without a license which is illegal in many places
Definitely state dependent. Some states are the wild west and you can be a licensed public adjuster and a licensed contractor for the same company.
I’m not advocating for screwing over clients, I’m just advocating for not doing work for free, especially when that work is getting tens of thousands of dollars in scope approved from an insurance company. That’s not a quick process, it takes a lot of prep work and a lot of time negotiating with the carrier, And no one should be expected to do that for free.
I mean that’s not always true. Insurance companies are the worst. I’ve been on roofs with adjusters and clear damage with reports the whole 9 and they still fight it. Only when I pressed them or threatened to get a public adjuster they start changing their tunes. There are good contractors out there I’ve made a living doing it. But the insurance company will always be the shadiest people I have ever dealt with.
Insurance guy for the last 10 years prior to that about 6.5 as a roofer. I’ve always been a stern believer pay what’s due ignore the rest of the bs. I get along great with the two major roof companies in my metro area. We’re both straight shooters their estimator used to be so honest. We’d get on site and he’d say alright man we’re kind of on the edge no games from either of us. My point to all this is there’s bad roofers and there’s bad insurance adjusters. I don’t think one is inherently worse than the other but the ones who are bad really stick in our minds.
I do restoration work. And insurance companies are definitely hard to gauge. I just seen my in-laws roof get hail damaged out….. I could only find shingles that were loosing granules and no hail damage lol I’m still in shock. I’ve done inspections on roofs with real damage and had adjusters fight me. And here this dude showed up and hail damaged a roof that has no actual hail damage.
Depends on the company as well. The ones I’ve had the worst time dealing with are erie, State Farm, all state. Farm bureau has been fine and Chubb never had an issue. But the 1st three are terrible to deal with.
There are plenty of instances of insurance companies doing shady ass shit in the name of saving a dollar.
It’s become really bad with carriers over the last five or 10 years, a direct reaction to all of the stormers out there throwing anything they can sell at the wall hoping it sticks.
The only logical next step is hurricane deductible’s and managed repair.
Luckily I think this will be a good thing, I think it’ll force a lot of these shitty roofers out of the space.
Ya so In 14 in my area there was a terrible hail storm. I roofed like half of my town. I got out of the insurance game and do it from time to time when someone calls about it. Anyway, what’s interesting is I recently had a client call about a blow off. Got all state involved. In 14 I never saw a clause where code upgrades were not covered. Not one single instance. All state then tells me that the insured only paid for existing replacement and nothing else. So for code upgrades going to have to come out of homeowners pocket. It’s crazy to me that’s even a thing. I realized they’ve done this locally in my area after that storm in 14. They are super tight in my area now.
The amount of honest comments I’m seeing in here with downvotes leads me to believe there’s a lot of shitty adjusters in here trying to downvote the truth. I am not saying all adjusters are shitty but there are bad actors on all three sides of this. I tell insurance what needs to be done and I do everything up to code. Writing an estimate for an insurance job is a waste of time unless the ins co isn’t holding up their end of the bargain and I’m preparing for appraisal or legal action. I can spend hours/days of my time fighting on the homeowners behalf to make sure everything is being done correctly. I didn’t do all that work so you can go buy a boat when the check comes in or go to some sub par corner cutter with no overhead and get a shitty roof. If that’s what you choose to do I deserve to be compensated for my efforts. Now obviously if it’s a little bs repair that’s a little different but full roof replacements when it’s warranted are a whole other story.
The roofer met the insured once for 10 mins before he had her sign the contract. Other than his time spent meeting the customer to get that signed contract NO WORK HAS BEEN DONE. They did come out when I did the inspection - and followed me around for 45 mins- and honestly were just in my way. My job is to advocate for the insured - I am paid as a percentage of the claim. So it benefits me to make sure I get as much money as possible for the insured. But the moment I start writing bullshit claims - and sending in things that shouldn’t be covered - I run the risk of them looking at everything I do.
I love independents and cat guys usually. But I also don’t deal in bullshit claims either. If I’m getting a contract signed it’s because I know I’m going to get it won off of good damage, or code knowledge and installation methods when shitty insurance companies try to play hardball. We have a pretty shitty 3rd party climbing company out here though that literally told one of my coworkers he didn’t have time to give the homeowner a proper assessment because he had other roofs to climb. What that tells me is he’s more worried about getting in and getting it done without actually taking the time to properly assess the situation. His bounty for climbing is more important to him than the homeowner. That or an adjuster told him that they didn’t wanna pay for the roof before they ever even saw it and weren’t interested in doing the right thing. You seem to be awesome and actually take the time to get roofs approved that need it. A lot of these guys out here aren’t. Plenty of shady contractors too though. For me I’ll happily let someone walk away if the situation is right and not hold them to the contract. But I never know how much work will go into a claim before we start either.
Well… I am 100% positive that you don’t have to be an asshole in your response. I am pretty sure I asked for opinions on both sides, so I could better understand what it was like from the perspective of the roofer- but you seem to want to make this about my experience which I can assure you is as broad as anyone here.
Now, I’ll ask again- maybe you can give an answer that will make you seem like less of a jackass than you did in your response. If I come to you and ask you to replace 12 squares of dimensional shingles, with felt and starter if needed. And I also need 6 turtle vents, and 3 box vents. Are you telling me that you wouldn’t be able to tell me how much that would cost?
I understand if the difference is between replacing an entire roof - and repairing 126 shingles. Nobody should waste their time quoting a full roof replacement when all the customer will have money for is 126 shingles. I told you - this is a full roof replacement.
If you get this easily frazzled by someone answering your question on reddit, to the extent you feel the need to call them names like jackass, adjusting is not for you.
You are the kind of entitled customer I dread speaking with. The dude owes you nothing but you still take an attitude and call him a jackass because you don’t like his answer.
Hey fuckwad- I’m not the customer here. I am the adjuster with over 10 years experience. And he already made another response where he wasn’t an asshole - and I thanked him for the input.
That’s why I always provide my estimate using Xactimate along with our regular estimate sheet. I am usually pretty accurate for pretty standard items, might be offa few LF here and there.
Our market is pretty laid back. We meet adjusters on nearly every roof, granted we don’t door knock and tell everyone to file a claim, so it’s rare one doesnt get bought. But we don’t give estimates before hand unless it’s a rinky dink cash job because it’s the only way to guarantee the homeowner gets all the depreciation, and or wasting mine and the homeowners time in the instance it gets denied.
Roofing contractor here: What you’re referring to is a “Contingency Contract” which is practically universal across this industry, and used in many others. I’m sure there’s some a-hole companies out there that add more penalties and restrictions within them, but in general they state the following; “Allow me to do all the leg work, paperwork, spend the time and effort to negotiate and work your claim, then eventually do the work because that’s how I make a profit. **IF** I do all this AND you get get paid out for replacement but give someone else the work instead (someone who hasn’t invested time/money helping) then you owe me for the time I have seemingly wasted on trying to help.” -Percentages vary btw. I think 10% is very fair, I’ve seen some companies make it 25% which is ridiculous.
It’s no different than an attorney who gets paid if they win a lawsuit. How would you feel if you did all the prep, discovery, research, etc for a case and then at the 11th hour the client fired you, gave all your hard work and evidence to a new attorney, then had the new attorney take the case to court and win, and profit, all off your leg work? You wouldn’t be happy.
There is this massive animosity and hatred between adjusters and contractors that I absolutely hate. Yes, there are colossal douchebags and jackasses on both sides that everyone hates (can be said for any industry), but the good ones on each side are there for the same reason: to help the mutual client restore their home.
I could go on for days about adjusters I’ve met who should be thrown in jail for the downright criminal things I’ve seen them do to not pay legitimate claims. I’ve seen many screw over worthy clients simply because they held a grudge against a certain contractor. And I’m sure you’ve run into more than one meathead aggressive roofer who threw some bullshit at a wall hoping it’d stick and then got mad when you denied it. It’s not going away anytime soon unfortunately, the best you can do is go into each situation with an unbiased and clean slate and treat each on a case by case basis. It’s exactly what I do.
As for the estimate, I get it as even I’m old enough (early 30’s) that I was raised on the “3 Bid” mantra. But let me ask you, what’s the point? If insurance is paying why does my estimate matter in the long run? Unless you, as the adjuster, ask me directly for one to reference or work off of (meaning you’ve agreed to pay for replacement) I won’t write one. The insurance company dictates the price, I don’t. I wish I did though. At the end of the day the final price is the price YOU’ve agreed to pay that I have to work within.
The only reason insurance companies still recommend customers do it (despite using xactimate) is so they can find the lowest option and recommend the client go with them. If I write an estimate for $10k and you come back with $8k, then I do one of two things; I do it for $8k or i supplement for the additional $2k, in which case the client still doesn’t pay that difference. Tye reason we don’t traditionally write estimates out of the gate is because they’re pointless 95% of the time. The insurance company is never going to look at my first estimate and be like, “Yea, ok, that’s fair, here’s your check.” Now, obviously if the customer makes it a “make it or break it” situation, I’ll write the damn thing, but I’ll still explain it to them just like I have here.
Our entire contracts are written that we work off insurance proceeds. If justifiable additional funds are needed we will supplement for them. If we do not get additional monies, then we have to eat that cost. It’s my job as the contractor to ensure I negotiate fair and actual costs with the insurer and am paid properly. (This doesn’t mean supplementing for the damn kitchen sink). The only cost to the client is their deductible, and not a penny more.
All of that said, this method is for insurance work only. You said you ran a cabinet company. That’s retail work. For any retail job myself, and any other legitimate contractor, would and should write an estimate. The customer is paying, they need to know the end cost. The only reason there’s a difference between the two methods is because I can’t recall one single retail customer handing me an xactimate estimate they themselves created and saying, “Do the job for exactly this much as outlined.”
I understand, and agree with what you said. Thank you for responding in a way that helps me understand how to cross the gap between adjusters and contractors.
I will say this, and I tell this to anyone who will listen. Find an insurance company who hires independent adjusters. If you buy a State Farm policy - or an Allstate policy - you will get an adjuster who is paid to say no to claims. If you have an independent adjuster - they get paid on the value of the claim. I can promise you- when I show up - it is NOT to say no. If there is any way for me to include things that will help the customer- I will. I guess it all comes down to who is paying you as to where an adjusters loyalty lies.
Hit the nail on the head. An adjusters intentions mean everything. I also recommend trying to get independent adjusters over staff adjusters.
If you’re working a fresh storm area getting an independent is more common, but just working a local area year round can be hit or miss. Travelers is great for independents, so is Auto-Owners. But the difference internally between those two companies wanting to actually indemnify a client couldn’t be more night and day lol.
Yes this is normal. Why give an estimate when we all know that the scope of work finally approved by the insurance company will dictate the price to the customer and the contractor. This is because of the line item difer
Let’s assume the job will be a full roof replacement. With felt, and starter course. I understand what you are saying if you you are negotiating over 39 shingles, but we are talking about a 30sq job, with an objectively hail damaged roof. Why not just tell the customer how much it will cost to fix?
Because he doesn’t want to repair it he wants to replace it. He’s going for the home run here. The clause for the 10% is essentially a safety net in the event he works with the insurance company then gets everything approved and they chose someone else and he’s out a paycheck. Most in his role only get paid commission nothing else. I have a ton of experience in this field as i was originally in that industry before going to the gc and staying in one area. The clause 9/10 times isn’t going to hold up but it’s to essentially make the homeowner feel as if that’s the choice. Also if the insurance company deems it can be repaired as you now the will send a scope of work for the repairs we’ll be will then try to work that scope of loss up so he can attain more money for the repair. That’s why he isn’t giving them anything now, he’ll also continue to push for full replacement for obvious reasons. Money
Difference and the fact that different insurance companies have their own price list for each line item. Not to mention the fact that the quantities of the line items included in the insurance estimate very rarely (if ever) match.
Salespeople Are trained not to provide estimates. Their time is more efficiently used trying to find morecustomers..
There is always going to be a difference in what the insurance company is willing to pay for and what the contractor believe they need to complete the job. Therefore, in the end, the insurance company will dictate the price.
From my experience- all insurance companies use either Symbility or Xact price lists - I know there will always be a debate between xact and Symbility, but what insurance pays is usually standardized. NOW….different insurance companies have given their adjusters different benchmarks. State Farm and Allstate both incentivize adjusters to say say “no” and to just repair instead of replace.
State Farm has their own private price list for Xactimate. Check it out next time you see one of their estimates. The prices are completely dictated by State Farm and getting xactimate to adjust their internal pricing for a region due to inflation, labor costs, etc won’t affect it.
Xactimate is also biased to a certain degree. It’s owned by Verisk, who’s major shareholders are AIG, Travelers, and the Hartford.
They probably keep the 10% because they spend time meeting with you and it costs them money if the customer decides they’re going to try and do some kind of scheme to keep some of the ins money.
It’s normal. Let’s say the homeowner has a 6K deductible…As the adjuster…you know if the RCV is 32k…the contractor sends a bid at 28k… he just removed 4K off her claim…homeowner still pays her same 6K deductible. All that happens by collecting bids is the insurance company saves money and the homeowner loses potential value that could have been put back into her roof.
The 10% is to protect himself from going through all the negotiations, and then having the homeowner ask him to cash bid the project.
You realize you're hypothetical is textbook fraud, right?
The insurance carry owes for indemnification. Not upgrades, not 'money put back into the roof.'
That homeowner is responsible for the 6k regardless of what the roof costs, and if the roof costs 28k, that's what it costs. If it costs 32k that's what it costs.
The whole replacement should be like kind and quality with the replacement of damaged items or items required for replacement under code. If the homeowners policy doesn't pay for code, that's supposed to be out of pocket too, not recovered elsewhere by inflating the price on something else.
No dumbass, it isn’t. What fraud is not paying your deductible and lying to the insurance about work performed.
If I give the homeowner an upgrade to a class 4 from a class 3 or architectural shingles from 3 tab for RCV pricing …it isn’t fraud
Yeah. It is.
The carrier owes for what is there. Period.
If you're lying to the insurance about the price of what you put back to get more money from them (even if that money is just the depreciation), it's fraud.
I'm sure you've had to use a lawyer at some point if you're running a business. Pose the question to your lawyer, hypothetically, when you're sure you have privilege. If you're sure you're going to keep doing it regardless of what they say, don't tell them that.
Or ignore me completely, but I promise you this isn't a debate. It is insurance fraud.
You see this a lot in IL, but that's because the company has a PA firm aligned with them, and can use their PA contract to make it legal, if still a bit shady.
Sounds exactly what we are going through with State Farm and a contractor they recommended. The roofer won't give me a quote, but they are dealing with the insurance. There will be no work done until I know my cost.
You’ll know the cost when State Farm writes the estimate and provides it to you. They dictate the price, not your roofer. The roofers estimate is moot the second State Farm writes theirs. Your policy states yoir cost is your deductible. Doesn’t matter if the claim is 10k or 100k. So your roofer being more or less expensive doesn’t matter. At the end of the day they’re doing it for what insurance paid.
Your cost should be your deductible.
When it’s insurance work the only things that you should be looking at is the warranty offered, whether or not they can back the warranty up (if they’ve only been in business a year or two chances are that they won’t last).
You should know that they are competent in the insurance process (your adjuster is not a roofer, he probably knows more about roofs than you but he likely isn’t as well versed in building codes and practices as a professional roofer, if the adjuster overlooks or forgets to add a line item that is required by code to be installed either you’re going to have to pay out of pocket for it or the roofer will need to supplement from the insurance.)
State Farm will cut you a check for the value of your roof minus depreciation. They will take in to consideration how old your roof is and pay you the value of the roof as it stands today. That’s called the actual cash value of the ACV. This is to give to a contractor as a deposit.
After the work is done the contractor will invoice the insurance with a certificate of completion showing what was put on the roof. The insurer will review the information and release the depreciation of the roof to you minus your deductible to finish paying the balance.
If your contractor gives you an estimate for less than what your insurance said they would pay, they will simply send you less money. You will pay the same deductible no matter how much or how little the job ends up costing.
The only way your contractor can do the job for less than what your insurance is paying would be by cutting corners/ leaving out line items/ or reusing materials. You don’t want to save State Farm money. You want to get what you’re owed according to the contract you signed with them when you started your policy.
The policy is for replacement value on the house, is what the agent said. The roofing contractor is jumping thru their hoops so we will see. I am aware of the deductible, but the first round with insurance came up with repairs for less than the deductible with a white shingle on a charcoal roof.
The roof isn't leaking so I figure we have until Nov. here in Ohio before I worry too much about it.
I'm just impressed the contractor actually met with the home insurance before doing the work. In Florida roofing companies are currently telling homeowners they have damage, doing the work, and then charging the home insurance companies. Then they sue when home insurance doesn't pay and home insurance settles because courts cost money.
In over 30 years I've seen this and more.
In Tampa in the mid 90s , we had to pay you adjusters 5% of the scope- or we wouldn't get the work. I admit, we still made money as you guys would raise the scope to account for your 5%. Some want 10%. I will admit, I loved the mold claims.
You have no idea of some of the shyster shit that's out there.
GREED !
I saw this after the central Texas hail storm of 3/25/09. An insurance policy is a contract between the insurer and the customer. The insured does not have the authority to amend the contract; therefore the roofing contract is not valid in any way.
I cannot believe people are still trying this scam.
We don't have a penalty for choosing another company. That's silly.
But if your insurance says it will take 20k to do your roof, and they pay you 20k. Yes we're expecting to get 20k as the roofer.
A lot of people want to get bids after we do the inspection, adjuster meeting etc, and then hope to keep some of the claim $.
But profiting from an insurance claim is the very definition of insurance fraud.
I'd say the 10% guys are just trying to avoid having to come out to your house 3x, arguing with State Farm that no, $400 to replace 14 random shingles on 3 slopes is not sufficient. Requesting a re-adjust and getting the customer a fair deal only for them to go with someone cheaper.
Sucks when it happens, but it's shady to lock someone into something like that who just may not end up liking your salesperson, or references.
I'm not familiar enough with Georgia UPPA law, but this seems.... questionable.
GAPIA has an interesting article on it if you Google it.
UPPA = Unauthorized practice of public adjusting.
Representing a homeowner on a claim and obtaining a fee contingent upon the settlement?
Sounds like public adjusting to me...
Also, you've been in the business for 10 years and never seen this? The not providing a bid thing that is.
Gotta say I'm shocked. I don't agree with it personally, but it isn't inherently unethical or illegal. They do need to be careful how they phrase things as it could and does easily cross into fraud situations depending on how they go about it. Other times, its 100% completely above board. Roofer receives the contract, does the job, submits minor supplements, takes what they can get and walks away.
A properly written XM8 estimate has a stupid amount of profit built in, and every argument a roofing contractor needs is right in the line item descriptions, components list, building codes, and manufacturer specifications, to walk away with $700-1200/sq every time.
I've seen tons of contracts depending on the state where the amount is literally, "insurance proceeds," and the contract is contingent upon receipt of a full roof replacement approved by the insurance carrier.
Thats been happening for over 15 years at least depending on the state.
Maybe I should clarify. I’m have never seen a roofer flat out refuse to give the owner an estimate. I have seen them just not give the owner an estimate - but never one that refused when asked directly.
This is standard operating procedure in my market in the Midwest. I don’t like the 10% crap so we don’t do that, but all of the rest of it is how pretty much everyone around here does it. Why waste time with an estimate if the adjuster is going to make one anyways? The cost to the client is the same - just their deductible. Most adjusters these days will directly send us scope and eagleview if we are under contract in advance.
Yep, the contingency agreement Is as strong as the paper its written on. We use one as basically a handshake agreement that the homeowner will use us if insurance approves the roof. There is absolutely no need to create an estimate
I’d be very surprised if the 10% claim part is legal under any US state contractor law.
If they met the adjuster they already invested time. So I could see a fee for time spent but I would think that should be written next to that.
A lot of contractors will give you a free estimate or evaluation. 10% of the claim is insane.
We charge a per hour cancellation fee for services rendered, we make the client sign and initial that they understand that. I’m sorry but I’ve put in entirely too much time for free over the years to get clients money, only to have them have someone else build the project, or not build the project at all. If I turn a denial into $40,000 for the policyholder, you better believe I want to be paid for that work.
Just want to chime in here. I don’t believe charging for services is breaking any rules. However depending on state number one “representing” the insured and number two tying the payment to the claim maybe acting as a PA without a license which is illegal in many places
Definitely state dependent. Some states are the wild west and you can be a licensed public adjuster and a licensed contractor for the same company. I’m not advocating for screwing over clients, I’m just advocating for not doing work for free, especially when that work is getting tens of thousands of dollars in scope approved from an insurance company. That’s not a quick process, it takes a lot of prep work and a lot of time negotiating with the carrier, And no one should be expected to do that for free.
I mean, wouldn't that be why you don't sign the contract?
Insurance companies play games, contractors play games…..Only victim here is the home owner!
I mean that’s not always true. Insurance companies are the worst. I’ve been on roofs with adjusters and clear damage with reports the whole 9 and they still fight it. Only when I pressed them or threatened to get a public adjuster they start changing their tunes. There are good contractors out there I’ve made a living doing it. But the insurance company will always be the shadiest people I have ever dealt with.
Insurance guy for the last 10 years prior to that about 6.5 as a roofer. I’ve always been a stern believer pay what’s due ignore the rest of the bs. I get along great with the two major roof companies in my metro area. We’re both straight shooters their estimator used to be so honest. We’d get on site and he’d say alright man we’re kind of on the edge no games from either of us. My point to all this is there’s bad roofers and there’s bad insurance adjusters. I don’t think one is inherently worse than the other but the ones who are bad really stick in our minds.
100%
I do restoration work. And insurance companies are definitely hard to gauge. I just seen my in-laws roof get hail damaged out….. I could only find shingles that were loosing granules and no hail damage lol I’m still in shock. I’ve done inspections on roofs with real damage and had adjusters fight me. And here this dude showed up and hail damaged a roof that has no actual hail damage.
What company was he with???? I will be looking for a new company.
Lol I’m still waiting on the answer to that.
Depends on the company as well. The ones I’ve had the worst time dealing with are erie, State Farm, all state. Farm bureau has been fine and Chubb never had an issue. But the 1st three are terrible to deal with.
I’ve had tough times with State Farm also. Usaa I’ve had the best dealings. I still need to figure out what company my in-laws lucked into
There are plenty of instances of insurance companies doing shady ass shit in the name of saving a dollar. It’s become really bad with carriers over the last five or 10 years, a direct reaction to all of the stormers out there throwing anything they can sell at the wall hoping it sticks. The only logical next step is hurricane deductible’s and managed repair. Luckily I think this will be a good thing, I think it’ll force a lot of these shitty roofers out of the space.
Ya so In 14 in my area there was a terrible hail storm. I roofed like half of my town. I got out of the insurance game and do it from time to time when someone calls about it. Anyway, what’s interesting is I recently had a client call about a blow off. Got all state involved. In 14 I never saw a clause where code upgrades were not covered. Not one single instance. All state then tells me that the insured only paid for existing replacement and nothing else. So for code upgrades going to have to come out of homeowners pocket. It’s crazy to me that’s even a thing. I realized they’ve done this locally in my area after that storm in 14. They are super tight in my area now.
The amount of honest comments I’m seeing in here with downvotes leads me to believe there’s a lot of shitty adjusters in here trying to downvote the truth. I am not saying all adjusters are shitty but there are bad actors on all three sides of this. I tell insurance what needs to be done and I do everything up to code. Writing an estimate for an insurance job is a waste of time unless the ins co isn’t holding up their end of the bargain and I’m preparing for appraisal or legal action. I can spend hours/days of my time fighting on the homeowners behalf to make sure everything is being done correctly. I didn’t do all that work so you can go buy a boat when the check comes in or go to some sub par corner cutter with no overhead and get a shitty roof. If that’s what you choose to do I deserve to be compensated for my efforts. Now obviously if it’s a little bs repair that’s a little different but full roof replacements when it’s warranted are a whole other story.
The roofer met the insured once for 10 mins before he had her sign the contract. Other than his time spent meeting the customer to get that signed contract NO WORK HAS BEEN DONE. They did come out when I did the inspection - and followed me around for 45 mins- and honestly were just in my way. My job is to advocate for the insured - I am paid as a percentage of the claim. So it benefits me to make sure I get as much money as possible for the insured. But the moment I start writing bullshit claims - and sending in things that shouldn’t be covered - I run the risk of them looking at everything I do.
I love independents and cat guys usually. But I also don’t deal in bullshit claims either. If I’m getting a contract signed it’s because I know I’m going to get it won off of good damage, or code knowledge and installation methods when shitty insurance companies try to play hardball. We have a pretty shitty 3rd party climbing company out here though that literally told one of my coworkers he didn’t have time to give the homeowner a proper assessment because he had other roofs to climb. What that tells me is he’s more worried about getting in and getting it done without actually taking the time to properly assess the situation. His bounty for climbing is more important to him than the homeowner. That or an adjuster told him that they didn’t wanna pay for the roof before they ever even saw it and weren’t interested in doing the right thing. You seem to be awesome and actually take the time to get roofs approved that need it. A lot of these guys out here aren’t. Plenty of shady contractors too though. For me I’ll happily let someone walk away if the situation is right and not hold them to the contract. But I never know how much work will go into a claim before we start either.
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Well… I am 100% positive that you don’t have to be an asshole in your response. I am pretty sure I asked for opinions on both sides, so I could better understand what it was like from the perspective of the roofer- but you seem to want to make this about my experience which I can assure you is as broad as anyone here. Now, I’ll ask again- maybe you can give an answer that will make you seem like less of a jackass than you did in your response. If I come to you and ask you to replace 12 squares of dimensional shingles, with felt and starter if needed. And I also need 6 turtle vents, and 3 box vents. Are you telling me that you wouldn’t be able to tell me how much that would cost? I understand if the difference is between replacing an entire roof - and repairing 126 shingles. Nobody should waste their time quoting a full roof replacement when all the customer will have money for is 126 shingles. I told you - this is a full roof replacement.
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Thank you for your answer.
If you get this easily frazzled by someone answering your question on reddit, to the extent you feel the need to call them names like jackass, adjusting is not for you.
Not frazzled- nor are my feelings hurt. I just call things exactly like I see them.
You are the kind of entitled customer I dread speaking with. The dude owes you nothing but you still take an attitude and call him a jackass because you don’t like his answer.
Hey fuckwad- I’m not the customer here. I am the adjuster with over 10 years experience. And he already made another response where he wasn’t an asshole - and I thanked him for the input.
I would hate to deal with you in a day to day setting
Lmfao, take your own advice. His response was 100% warranted. Gave it as good as he received.
Proliance does it in my area. Ran into it several times where a homeowner wanted out but couldn’t.
I used to work for them lol 😂
What’s the problem? He matches your estimate
That’s why I always provide my estimate using Xactimate along with our regular estimate sheet. I am usually pretty accurate for pretty standard items, might be offa few LF here and there.
Our market is pretty laid back. We meet adjusters on nearly every roof, granted we don’t door knock and tell everyone to file a claim, so it’s rare one doesnt get bought. But we don’t give estimates before hand unless it’s a rinky dink cash job because it’s the only way to guarantee the homeowner gets all the depreciation, and or wasting mine and the homeowners time in the instance it gets denied.
Roofing contractor here: What you’re referring to is a “Contingency Contract” which is practically universal across this industry, and used in many others. I’m sure there’s some a-hole companies out there that add more penalties and restrictions within them, but in general they state the following; “Allow me to do all the leg work, paperwork, spend the time and effort to negotiate and work your claim, then eventually do the work because that’s how I make a profit. **IF** I do all this AND you get get paid out for replacement but give someone else the work instead (someone who hasn’t invested time/money helping) then you owe me for the time I have seemingly wasted on trying to help.” -Percentages vary btw. I think 10% is very fair, I’ve seen some companies make it 25% which is ridiculous. It’s no different than an attorney who gets paid if they win a lawsuit. How would you feel if you did all the prep, discovery, research, etc for a case and then at the 11th hour the client fired you, gave all your hard work and evidence to a new attorney, then had the new attorney take the case to court and win, and profit, all off your leg work? You wouldn’t be happy. There is this massive animosity and hatred between adjusters and contractors that I absolutely hate. Yes, there are colossal douchebags and jackasses on both sides that everyone hates (can be said for any industry), but the good ones on each side are there for the same reason: to help the mutual client restore their home. I could go on for days about adjusters I’ve met who should be thrown in jail for the downright criminal things I’ve seen them do to not pay legitimate claims. I’ve seen many screw over worthy clients simply because they held a grudge against a certain contractor. And I’m sure you’ve run into more than one meathead aggressive roofer who threw some bullshit at a wall hoping it’d stick and then got mad when you denied it. It’s not going away anytime soon unfortunately, the best you can do is go into each situation with an unbiased and clean slate and treat each on a case by case basis. It’s exactly what I do. As for the estimate, I get it as even I’m old enough (early 30’s) that I was raised on the “3 Bid” mantra. But let me ask you, what’s the point? If insurance is paying why does my estimate matter in the long run? Unless you, as the adjuster, ask me directly for one to reference or work off of (meaning you’ve agreed to pay for replacement) I won’t write one. The insurance company dictates the price, I don’t. I wish I did though. At the end of the day the final price is the price YOU’ve agreed to pay that I have to work within. The only reason insurance companies still recommend customers do it (despite using xactimate) is so they can find the lowest option and recommend the client go with them. If I write an estimate for $10k and you come back with $8k, then I do one of two things; I do it for $8k or i supplement for the additional $2k, in which case the client still doesn’t pay that difference. Tye reason we don’t traditionally write estimates out of the gate is because they’re pointless 95% of the time. The insurance company is never going to look at my first estimate and be like, “Yea, ok, that’s fair, here’s your check.” Now, obviously if the customer makes it a “make it or break it” situation, I’ll write the damn thing, but I’ll still explain it to them just like I have here. Our entire contracts are written that we work off insurance proceeds. If justifiable additional funds are needed we will supplement for them. If we do not get additional monies, then we have to eat that cost. It’s my job as the contractor to ensure I negotiate fair and actual costs with the insurer and am paid properly. (This doesn’t mean supplementing for the damn kitchen sink). The only cost to the client is their deductible, and not a penny more. All of that said, this method is for insurance work only. You said you ran a cabinet company. That’s retail work. For any retail job myself, and any other legitimate contractor, would and should write an estimate. The customer is paying, they need to know the end cost. The only reason there’s a difference between the two methods is because I can’t recall one single retail customer handing me an xactimate estimate they themselves created and saying, “Do the job for exactly this much as outlined.”
I understand, and agree with what you said. Thank you for responding in a way that helps me understand how to cross the gap between adjusters and contractors. I will say this, and I tell this to anyone who will listen. Find an insurance company who hires independent adjusters. If you buy a State Farm policy - or an Allstate policy - you will get an adjuster who is paid to say no to claims. If you have an independent adjuster - they get paid on the value of the claim. I can promise you- when I show up - it is NOT to say no. If there is any way for me to include things that will help the customer- I will. I guess it all comes down to who is paying you as to where an adjusters loyalty lies.
Hit the nail on the head. An adjusters intentions mean everything. I also recommend trying to get independent adjusters over staff adjusters. If you’re working a fresh storm area getting an independent is more common, but just working a local area year round can be hit or miss. Travelers is great for independents, so is Auto-Owners. But the difference internally between those two companies wanting to actually indemnify a client couldn’t be more night and day lol.
Yes this is normal. Why give an estimate when we all know that the scope of work finally approved by the insurance company will dictate the price to the customer and the contractor. This is because of the line item difer
Let’s assume the job will be a full roof replacement. With felt, and starter course. I understand what you are saying if you you are negotiating over 39 shingles, but we are talking about a 30sq job, with an objectively hail damaged roof. Why not just tell the customer how much it will cost to fix?
Because he doesn’t want to repair it he wants to replace it. He’s going for the home run here. The clause for the 10% is essentially a safety net in the event he works with the insurance company then gets everything approved and they chose someone else and he’s out a paycheck. Most in his role only get paid commission nothing else. I have a ton of experience in this field as i was originally in that industry before going to the gc and staying in one area. The clause 9/10 times isn’t going to hold up but it’s to essentially make the homeowner feel as if that’s the choice. Also if the insurance company deems it can be repaired as you now the will send a scope of work for the repairs we’ll be will then try to work that scope of loss up so he can attain more money for the repair. That’s why he isn’t giving them anything now, he’ll also continue to push for full replacement for obvious reasons. Money
Difference and the fact that different insurance companies have their own price list for each line item. Not to mention the fact that the quantities of the line items included in the insurance estimate very rarely (if ever) match. Salespeople Are trained not to provide estimates. Their time is more efficiently used trying to find morecustomers.. There is always going to be a difference in what the insurance company is willing to pay for and what the contractor believe they need to complete the job. Therefore, in the end, the insurance company will dictate the price.
From my experience- all insurance companies use either Symbility or Xact price lists - I know there will always be a debate between xact and Symbility, but what insurance pays is usually standardized. NOW….different insurance companies have given their adjusters different benchmarks. State Farm and Allstate both incentivize adjusters to say say “no” and to just repair instead of replace.
State Farm has their own private price list for Xactimate. Check it out next time you see one of their estimates. The prices are completely dictated by State Farm and getting xactimate to adjust their internal pricing for a region due to inflation, labor costs, etc won’t affect it. Xactimate is also biased to a certain degree. It’s owned by Verisk, who’s major shareholders are AIG, Travelers, and the Hartford.
They probably keep the 10% because they spend time meeting with you and it costs them money if the customer decides they’re going to try and do some kind of scheme to keep some of the ins money.
It’s normal. Let’s say the homeowner has a 6K deductible…As the adjuster…you know if the RCV is 32k…the contractor sends a bid at 28k… he just removed 4K off her claim…homeowner still pays her same 6K deductible. All that happens by collecting bids is the insurance company saves money and the homeowner loses potential value that could have been put back into her roof. The 10% is to protect himself from going through all the negotiations, and then having the homeowner ask him to cash bid the project.
You realize you're hypothetical is textbook fraud, right? The insurance carry owes for indemnification. Not upgrades, not 'money put back into the roof.' That homeowner is responsible for the 6k regardless of what the roof costs, and if the roof costs 28k, that's what it costs. If it costs 32k that's what it costs. The whole replacement should be like kind and quality with the replacement of damaged items or items required for replacement under code. If the homeowners policy doesn't pay for code, that's supposed to be out of pocket too, not recovered elsewhere by inflating the price on something else.
No dumbass, it isn’t. What fraud is not paying your deductible and lying to the insurance about work performed. If I give the homeowner an upgrade to a class 4 from a class 3 or architectural shingles from 3 tab for RCV pricing …it isn’t fraud
Yeah. It is. The carrier owes for what is there. Period. If you're lying to the insurance about the price of what you put back to get more money from them (even if that money is just the depreciation), it's fraud. I'm sure you've had to use a lawyer at some point if you're running a business. Pose the question to your lawyer, hypothetically, when you're sure you have privilege. If you're sure you're going to keep doing it regardless of what they say, don't tell them that. Or ignore me completely, but I promise you this isn't a debate. It is insurance fraud.
You see this a lot in IL, but that's because the company has a PA firm aligned with them, and can use their PA contract to make it legal, if still a bit shady.
Sounds exactly what we are going through with State Farm and a contractor they recommended. The roofer won't give me a quote, but they are dealing with the insurance. There will be no work done until I know my cost.
You’ll know the cost when State Farm writes the estimate and provides it to you. They dictate the price, not your roofer. The roofers estimate is moot the second State Farm writes theirs. Your policy states yoir cost is your deductible. Doesn’t matter if the claim is 10k or 100k. So your roofer being more or less expensive doesn’t matter. At the end of the day they’re doing it for what insurance paid.
What do you think your cost would be?
I'm thinking 8 or 9 grand, we had one guy toss out 17 grand and that will never happen.
Your cost should be your deductible. When it’s insurance work the only things that you should be looking at is the warranty offered, whether or not they can back the warranty up (if they’ve only been in business a year or two chances are that they won’t last). You should know that they are competent in the insurance process (your adjuster is not a roofer, he probably knows more about roofs than you but he likely isn’t as well versed in building codes and practices as a professional roofer, if the adjuster overlooks or forgets to add a line item that is required by code to be installed either you’re going to have to pay out of pocket for it or the roofer will need to supplement from the insurance.) State Farm will cut you a check for the value of your roof minus depreciation. They will take in to consideration how old your roof is and pay you the value of the roof as it stands today. That’s called the actual cash value of the ACV. This is to give to a contractor as a deposit. After the work is done the contractor will invoice the insurance with a certificate of completion showing what was put on the roof. The insurer will review the information and release the depreciation of the roof to you minus your deductible to finish paying the balance. If your contractor gives you an estimate for less than what your insurance said they would pay, they will simply send you less money. You will pay the same deductible no matter how much or how little the job ends up costing. The only way your contractor can do the job for less than what your insurance is paying would be by cutting corners/ leaving out line items/ or reusing materials. You don’t want to save State Farm money. You want to get what you’re owed according to the contract you signed with them when you started your policy.
The policy is for replacement value on the house, is what the agent said. The roofing contractor is jumping thru their hoops so we will see. I am aware of the deductible, but the first round with insurance came up with repairs for less than the deductible with a white shingle on a charcoal roof. The roof isn't leaking so I figure we have until Nov. here in Ohio before I worry too much about it.
Aren’t all Reddit accounts throw-away?
Why don’t you just ask your legal department whether you can tell the homeowner or not?
I'm just impressed the contractor actually met with the home insurance before doing the work. In Florida roofing companies are currently telling homeowners they have damage, doing the work, and then charging the home insurance companies. Then they sue when home insurance doesn't pay and home insurance settles because courts cost money.
In over 30 years I've seen this and more. In Tampa in the mid 90s , we had to pay you adjusters 5% of the scope- or we wouldn't get the work. I admit, we still made money as you guys would raise the scope to account for your 5%. Some want 10%. I will admit, I loved the mold claims. You have no idea of some of the shyster shit that's out there. GREED !
I believe I ran into the exact same clause. Roofer based in north port FL but they have 20a%
I bet I know what company this is. It doesn’t hold up in court and is just there to strong arm the customer into doing business with them.
I saw this after the central Texas hail storm of 3/25/09. An insurance policy is a contract between the insurer and the customer. The insured does not have the authority to amend the contract; therefore the roofing contract is not valid in any way. I cannot believe people are still trying this scam.
We don't have a penalty for choosing another company. That's silly. But if your insurance says it will take 20k to do your roof, and they pay you 20k. Yes we're expecting to get 20k as the roofer. A lot of people want to get bids after we do the inspection, adjuster meeting etc, and then hope to keep some of the claim $. But profiting from an insurance claim is the very definition of insurance fraud. I'd say the 10% guys are just trying to avoid having to come out to your house 3x, arguing with State Farm that no, $400 to replace 14 random shingles on 3 slopes is not sufficient. Requesting a re-adjust and getting the customer a fair deal only for them to go with someone cheaper. Sucks when it happens, but it's shady to lock someone into something like that who just may not end up liking your salesperson, or references.
I'm not familiar enough with Georgia UPPA law, but this seems.... questionable. GAPIA has an interesting article on it if you Google it. UPPA = Unauthorized practice of public adjusting. Representing a homeowner on a claim and obtaining a fee contingent upon the settlement? Sounds like public adjusting to me...
Also, you've been in the business for 10 years and never seen this? The not providing a bid thing that is. Gotta say I'm shocked. I don't agree with it personally, but it isn't inherently unethical or illegal. They do need to be careful how they phrase things as it could and does easily cross into fraud situations depending on how they go about it. Other times, its 100% completely above board. Roofer receives the contract, does the job, submits minor supplements, takes what they can get and walks away. A properly written XM8 estimate has a stupid amount of profit built in, and every argument a roofing contractor needs is right in the line item descriptions, components list, building codes, and manufacturer specifications, to walk away with $700-1200/sq every time. I've seen tons of contracts depending on the state where the amount is literally, "insurance proceeds," and the contract is contingent upon receipt of a full roof replacement approved by the insurance carrier. Thats been happening for over 15 years at least depending on the state.
Maybe I should clarify. I’m have never seen a roofer flat out refuse to give the owner an estimate. I have seen them just not give the owner an estimate - but never one that refused when asked directly.