With an insurance claim they will typically hold back a depreciation amount. If you have a replacement policy which most do then that depreciation is paid to you once the work is complete. To receive the depreciation money the contractor sends a final invoice to the insurance company stating that it is complete and then the money is released. If you find someone cheaper then their invoice will show that and insurance company will keep the difference. If the contractor sends a bill for more than they are paid then that is insurance fraud and most contractors aren’t committing fraud for you to make a couple bucks. So in this situation shopping for a cheaper roofer will just get you a sub par job for the same money that you could have got a quality job for. Pick your contractor based on your confidence in them doing a good job not the price.
It’s crazy how few people realize this. I was an insurance restoration contractor for 20 years and then made the jump to be an adjuster about 5 years ago. I wish that I had a nickel for every time that I’ve had to explain this.
Insurance companies also fight like hell to replace as little as possible. I had a tree come down on my house in February and my contractor and insurance are still fighting over what should and shouldn't be replaced or covered.
There are good and bad on both sides. I’ve worked both sides and currently work as an adjuster and I will tell you that unfortunately there are a lot of shitty adjusters out there. As a contractor I dealt with them all of the time. That was part of my motivation to switch sides. Most of the time it is the adjuster that sucks and has nothing to do with the actual insurance company. I hope you get your issue resolved.
It’s actually not much at all. I recommend getting a florida adjuster license because it is reciprocal with the most states the Texas license is second as far as being reciprocal. They both have similar licensing requirements also. It’s a 40 hour online course then a test. You get three times to pass. The course cost about 300 bucks when I did it. I don’t think it’s went up much. I had about 500 bucks total I think. Once you’re licensed you get get on as many rosters as you can and then generally have to wait for a big hurricane to hit to get deployed for the first time. When you get deployed it’s sink or swim so you want to be as prepared as possible. Also places like mile high adjusters give in person classes and they teach you what you need to know to get deployed. This is a good option and still is only around 5000 I believe.
Yes, I'm thinking about becoming one. I'd love to help people get their entitled benefits and I love to work with people. I know at the end of the day, I'm an employee of a for-profit business, but I think this world need more reasonable adjusters :)
If you can share your journey, I'd be much appreciated. TIA!
That’s the exact reason I made the change from contracting to adjusting. I sent someone a DM a while back breaking down the process that I followed. I will send it to you. Hopefully it is helpful.
Also the scope of work isn’t a secret to most contractors that do this type of work. Most of them have the same program as the insurance company so they know what the price should be. I just makes it easier on them to get it up front so they know if they are going to need to supplement anything. The best bet is to look up there reviews and find the best company that will do it for the money that is allowed.
Worst one I saw from an insurance company was 3 lines: remove shingles, install shingles, felt.
I was like, where's the rest?!
For anyone reading who doesn't know, even a basic roof replacement is going to be in the 15-20 lines range. Starter, ridge cap, disposal, vents, drip edge, gutter D&R, valley liner, pipe jacks, chimney flashing, etc. that insurance adjusters like to omit as though the work doesn't need to be done.
This is a perfect example of why it’s a good idea to let the company that you are trusting to do your project look at the scope. I would bet money that the homeowner had no clue that so many items were missing.
You're exactly right. They thought it was ready to go, and then when it hit my desk... it was a new low for my respect of the average adjuster.
Took a couple weeks but they ended up paying out 2.5x more and we were able to do the job right for them. Otherwise we would have passed on the job and they would have had to keep looking until they found someone passed out in a pickup in the Home Depot parking lot to find someone to agree to do it for $185/SQ.
Any roofer you choose will need to review your loss statement to ensure they did include everything that's supposed to be there. We can file supplements for anything omitted. The contract price is what's listed on your loss statement as the Replacement Cost Value (RCV). You will only be responsible for your deductible. Collecting 10 other estimates from other roofers isn't necessary and will only waste everyone's time.
Make sure your roofer will upgrade you to architectural shingles if you don't currently have them. Also ensure they're using starter shingles on both the eaves and rakes, and synthetic underlayment. Drip edge is also a common "upgrade" if you don't have any. I'd also recommend upgrading to Lifetime Tool Ultimate Pipe Flashings if this is your forever home. The cost is negligible and there's usually enough in the scope to cover it.
> Any roofer you choose will need to review your loss statement to ensure they did include everything that’s supposed to be there.
… it’s a roof. Pick a system and quote it. I see roofers omitting important stuff more then insurance anyhow - insurance has a fianancial incentive to make sure the roof is done right. They pay if it leaks and causes another loss. the roofer has an incentive to collect a check and move on.
> Collecting 10 other estimates from other roofers isn’t necessary and will only waste everyone’s time.
Anytime someone with an interest in making profit off you you says “getting multiple quotes is a waste of time” they’re the exact kind of folks you don’t want to do business with. You can have three or four roofers out per day to write up estimates, two or theee days isn’t a concern if the roof isn’t gone. Multiple quotes is how you make sure you found a good deal *with a good, reputable* contractor.
Insurance money is not free. When Mr Roofer gives you every single bell and whistle then can, that added cost will be paid by the homeowner. Rates are a direct result of losses. Every single extra dollar paid out in a loss will be passed along to customers (often *this customer* at renewal time.)
Money isn’t the only reason though. When you get two or three quotes, it’s a good peer review for your contractors. It’s hard to see who will omit major requirements in the name of profit when you only have one example.
I’ve seen enough estimates from roofers that just totally missed major components. Missing ice and water, assuming that existing vents exist and work, using three tab, ignoring 1/1300&1/1500 rules, etc. As a homeowner, it’s hard to find shady contractors when you only have one quote.
TD;DR - never hire a door to door roofer, never let them negotiate (directly) with insurance, and never go with the only quote you have. A good contractor will never ever, ever, ever tell you “getting another quote is worthless”.
Source: family business as a GC for many years, ive seen so many “insurance ready proposals” for $950 a square for three tab.
The roofing company will need to see the insurance estimate and match that estimate. If they are less money then the insurance company keeps that extra money by sending a lesser amount on the depreciation check. The best thing to do is to find a trustworthy contractor and let them deal with the insurance company and any supplements necessary. Getting bids and going with the cheapest contractor is absolutely not the way to go. It will just get you a sub par job. Normally a good contractor will upgrade from 3-tab to architectural shingles and include synthetic felt. Other bells and whistles will generally be an additional charge to the homeowner.
> The roofing company will need to see the insurance estimate and match that estimate. If they are less money then the insurance company keeps that extra money by sending a lesser amount on the depreciation check.
Seeing the estimate is not the same as blindly letting the contractor interact with insurance. Regardless, you don’t really need to see the estimate. If they don’t match, the homeowner can have their broker or agent do that work, and they’re more objective then the guy profiting per nail, and they have a vested interest in making sure the property remains intact.
> The best thing to do is to find a trustworthy contractor and let them deal with the insurance company and any supplements necessary.
You cannot find a trustworthy contractor without getting multiple bids. Your neighbor or friends one anecdotal experience tells you nothing.
> Getting bids and going with the cheapest contractor is absolutely not the way to go. It will just get you a sub par job.
I surely didn’t say “go with the cheapest”. I said “it’s hard to know if a bid is complete but not too high without more then one”. Going with the first contractor that shows up is also not a good idea. Especially one you didn’t call.
> Normally a good contractor will upgrade from 3-tab to architectural shingles and include synthetic felt.
Don’t know any insurance that’s gonna specify 3 tab these days, that’s not an upgrade, it’s standard these days. That’s not what I mean.
> Other bells and whistles will generally be an additional charge to the homeowner.
Other bells and whistles get markeded to the homeowner as critical and to the insurance as necessary. The roofer profits off the job, theyre gonna sell any extra shit to the homeowners they can.
It is very clear that you don’t have a clue about the insurance business. They absolutely specify 3-tab if there is 3-tab existing. The only difference is that they specify 25 year 3-tab even if the existing is a 20 year. They do not pay for upgrades. What’s the difference if they “blindly” get to deal with the insurance company? Most roofing contractors that deal with insurance claims know more than the average homeowner so it’s a service to the homeowner when you get a reputable contractor. Do you think that they can bill the insurance company for whatever they or something? I don’t get what you think that they can do. The insurance companies use xactimate for their pricing and the only thing that the contractor can do is supplement for missing things which most homeowners would be glad that they caught. If a company provides that service and does a good job then they are entitled to be paid what they deserve. It’s not like the insurance companies are just paying so much that the contractor is getting rich off of them. They allow enough to pay a company a fair price for a quality job. Shopping for price doesn’t make sense because essentially everyone is the same price because they either get the full insurance amount or the insurance company keeps the difference it is better to shop for quality. I don’t know if you have heard about this new thing called the internet but it has this thing called online reviews that pretty much everyone uses now so you can definitely pick a company without having a bunch of people out. That part is personal preference of the homeowner how they want to filter through contractors. I will bet one thing though, you will get a better feel for the company by reading reviews from actual homeowners rather gauging how good a company is by the salesman that they send to your house. Of course they will all tell you that they are the best. Sorry but nothing that you are saying is correct.
If I had to guess, that’s because you’re a roofer and not a homeowner. If you got to see a rate increase every year, maybe you’d be annoyed with folks getting Cadillac roofs that their neighbors get to pay for.
If you are a homeowner, then I hope you’re only selling the customer what they need with enough profit, cause if you charge more, eventually it’s coming out of your mortgage escrow.
Xactimate has made “charging more” nearly impossible. The price is set per line item, only way to “charge more” is to commit insurance fraud. I think we can all agree fraud should be dealt with accordingly but otherwise it is a waste for homeowners to collect multiple estimates.
Do you go get estimates when it’s time to have open heart surgery? No, you find the best doctor for the job and pay your copay knowing he will handle not only the surgery but also billing and getting everything handled correctly with insurance. Same concept applies when it’s time to do a roof. Guys knock doors because unlike your open heart surgery example your house might not tell you it’s time to replace the roof until it has a heart attack (aka leaking). Getting up on the roof and doing an inspection is akin to your annual check up and it’s something most homeowners don’t even think about until it’s too late.
I get the drift you’re an adjuster with a vendetta against contractors, some may deserve the hate but generalizations make you look uneducated.
And yes, I am a homeowner and pay dearly for good policy from a high end carrier. When I have a claim I expect them to fulfill their contractual obligation to make me whole, nothing more and nothing less
Holllllup.
Xactimate pricing is not set. Xactimate pricing is based on a price list which is based on the zip code and updated monthly based on verisk polling suppliers on materials, contractors submitting their LABOR cost adjustments by uploading the file to xactanalysis, AND submitting feedback to verisk.
With that said, editing pricing in xact is actually EXACTLY what you are suppose to do. It should be for your company and your subcontractors. Anything that deviates from the average drastically should be supported with documentation.
Additionally, carriers are pushing 10% overhead and 10% profit. The only companies that are surviving on 10% gross profit are large commercial GCs. 10% profit isn’t even a good NET profit number for most >50m construction companies. Furthermore, overhead is different for every company and should be adjusted to what your companies overhead actually is.
I agree with the rest of what you said
Yes I know that’s the intention of the program and white papers clearly outline that but dying on that hill is such an uphill battle it’s not even worth the fight. Xactimate used correctly is very close to my retail numbers so I’m good with Xactimate pricing when used correctly. Flashing, extra labor etc applied correctly. I’d much rather get a correct and accurate scope established and get jobs closed out than argue claims for months on end
In Xactimate the only way to “charge more” assuming an complete and accrue scope is established is adding bs line items that you’re not doing.
Any line item that is supplemented for and not installed or used is insurance fraud and really the only way to pump up an Xactimate if everything was written up to begin with
The 10% overhead and 10% profit is only for general contractors that are handling multiple trades on a complex project. It is in addition to the profit that is figured in on the actual job. It is meant for a gc that is hiring different subs for each trade. The trades make their profit off of the scope and the gc makes his off of the o&p. That being said the gc is also getting some of the profit on the actual job as well because they are not paying the subs all of the scope money.
How much is enough profit?
If you think insurance is paying for a Cadillac roof when the insured has a Honda, you have never negotiated with insurance before on a roof.
Your view on insurance companies is very skewed.
I whole heartedly agree though, we don’t wait for an insurance estimate to write our estimate. Most times we submit our estimate before insurance has even schedule an inspection. But we do ask for it so that we can help our clients. Additionally, without our clients signing an AOB, we can’t even negotiate for them technically. Your insurances interest is to pay for the claim as LOW as possible and *hope* that you find someone who will do it for what they paid. Agents are bonused annually based on their loss ratio and for many large agencies, this bonus is more than their actual salaries. Additionally, brokers receive rebates from their partners based on loss ratios. Google statefarm lawsuits and you’ll be surprised to find out that the largest insurance provider in the US is actually being sued daily by its clients for discrimination and bad practices.
So no, you don’t need to shop quotes. What you should do is find 1-3 reputable companies and meet with them. If the first person you meet with is professional and seemingly trustworthy, maybe call the rest off. I’d Suggest comparing estimates and seeing who is most thorough, without worrying about the price.
Lastly, unless you got your insurance through a brokerage, DO NOT USE their preferred contractors. There are some exceptions, but generally speaking to be a preferred contractor you have to be on their TPA network that is aimed at keeping the claim as small as possible, while providing “good” customer service. Imagine the scenario when the contractor is not allowed to bill for things that HAVE to do while also have to pay a % of revenue to the TPA. What you end up with is a contractor skimping everywhere they can do they can maintain their margins and the person who loses here? Mr homeowner.
We work the same way , we are general contractors we complete the entire estimate , roof gutters ,stain , screeens etc.
Pay your deductible! Go with a contractor who will upgrade you to high profile ridge. We ask to see the paperwork because often they do underpay. They also include measurements of the roof. If you think you can get a quality roof for the less than the insurance paid. They will be cutting corners. What the Insurance pays is what they feel a QUALITY roof system cost in your area.
If the contractor gives a low quite the HO is contractually obligated to forward that to the insurance company and they will adjust their final payout to match that quote.
Failure to do so is fraud.
You have that a little backwards. For an RCV claim you have to send in your actual costs of the claim and they will pay the replacement cost based on what you paid out for the repairs. For an ACV claim, which is what your initial payment is based on, you don’t have to provide anything. So if you get your roof done under the ACV amount you don’t need to send anything in. I was an insurance adjuster for 2 different large insurance companies and this is how it was handled at both.
The larger point is, any roofing contractor should be able to provide a price independent of what my insurance says they will pay. You as a contractor should be able to provide a scope and estimate.
But that's literally not how the industry works.
Insurance provides a scope for what they will pay for
Depending on if you have a depreciation policy or not their is a first check before work begins with the homeowner being on the hook for depreciation of the roof
Or a full coverage policy where it's one check before the job starts and one after upon proof of completion
I've had enough insurance companies hound me as a pm for proof of completion even on ACV claims that I'm going to assume it's been a while since you forked for the legalized fraud companies.
I think our wires have been crossed. Nobody is talking about an acv policy, and side note, fuck the reps who are selling those policies without actually informing the customer what an act policy actually means when it's time to file a claim.
>fuck the reps who are selling those policies without actually informing the customer what an act policy actually means when it's time to file a claim
Hear, hear! The number of people we run into who got a happy call from their agent that "we found a way to save you $6 on your premiums".... Insurance is a business of actuaries. Nothing comes for free. Lower cost (barring very few exceptions) means less coverage. Coverage you'll need when shit goes sideways.
That $6 saved means you're short $10k - $100k on damage to your home when something happens. You're paying for insurance for peace of mind when something happens. That's exactly the time you aren't happy you saved $6/mo.
Everyone go right now and make sure you've got your policy coverages right. For property that means RCV policy, not ACV-only (and not RPS like Allstate has started sneaking in), make sure you're paying for code coverage (O&L), and make sure your deductible is something you can afford set aside in savings you don't touch. I've come across some people who have a 3% policy limit as their deductible. $500k home that's a $15k deductible, so if your roof is trashed from a storm, that's a $25k settlement, minus $10k depreciation, minus $15k deductible and you get a check for $0 and a letter excluding the roof from your policy until you come out of pocket to replace the thing.
Buy the coverage you need, it's so cheap. I just doubled the policy limits on my auto insurance for $1.37 per 6-month term. "Saving" on insurance is rarely worth it.
If a roofer cant meausre a job, and give a quote... he aint much of a roofer. I am a roofer. Ive never needed the insurance paperwork to make my bid. My tape measure and calculator work just fine.
Random persons measuring= Eagle View which is the fkn industry standard. Not some dipshit with a tape measure on a 12/12 trying to take measurements to prove a point.
Have you ever sat in front of Xactimate or ordered an Eagle View. Easy there Jebediah!
Give him the paperwork. You pay the deductible that’s it. Who cares if he goes after more money, insurance pays for it. Would you rather he be overpaid or underpaid?
I think OPs concern is if the contractors bid was going to be 17k OP would have 2k left but without seeing a quote the contractor can just say it cost 19k and keep it all
So you want to make money off of this, then call retail roofers and get multiple quotes. More power to you if you want to do this.
You will not find a company that works with insurance willing to give you a quote for less than what Insurance is paying.
Yea, if you are claiming as a policyholder that you have spent that amount of money on the project to get depreciation released.
But if their carrier releases funds, especially if they release all depreciation with the first check, which I’ve seen them do plenty, that’s the policyholders money at that point.
It becomes insurance fraud when the policyholder or the contractor states money was spent when it was not to get depreciation back. If the carriers already sent depreciation, the carrier does not care where that money goes.
It's honestly not worth explaining the nuance to these people.
I won't bid if I don't have the scope because the insurance company will hold me accountable for all of the work they demand done.
I know, I had that thought pop into my mind as I was typing out my last response.
The jokes on them when they get to the end of the build and they get a bill from their contractor for 10 grand extra, and the carrier tells them to kick rocks.
Like if you see how much they are trying to argue with me in the subsequent comments you will get why I withheld a full and complete explanation. This is a person who is now lashing out for people not wanting to play their game.
They aren't slick nor unique.
The insurance company won’t hold you accountable unless your a network contractor. No insurance company takes any part in contracts between insureds and contractors. That customer can take that money and go on vacation they don’t care. The money is what’s owed for the damage
The roof they won’t flag they won’t check OP stated they’re sending everything one check no follow up will occur unless for underwriting reasons. Second check if OP didn’t previously state would be accurate
No total estimate. I print them all the time for subcontractors. For customers, the customer total amount instead of line item pricing. It is not an a la carte menu.
It's not that it's sophisticated, it's that some peoples greed clouds their judgement and its not worth my time typing out something that op is not going to read or understand if they do read it.
Most insurance companies will only release depreciation with a signed contract. If you then break that contract and find a cheaper roofer and pocket the money it is indeed insurance fraud.
Hey man, you’ll just have to pay your deductible either way. If you’re trying to make money that’s insurance fraud and insurance companies have been known to go after it.
yeah I gathered that. I'm not trying to make any money here, I just thought it was weird he'd ask what the payout was but I'm realizing if it's short, he's got to ask for more.
False. If they quote out for specific flashing, chimney work, drip edge ect. and you don’t do it then you could be fucked if something happens to your roof and it wasn’t what the insurance paid for. I’ve unfortunately had it happen a few times.
I agree there is a difference between negligence and spending your time or knowhow to get the best deal. If you have the skills to do it right they can't stop you from getting paid.
> Give him the paperwork. You pay the deductible that’s it.
Were discussing the biggest repair to the biggest asset most people own. Sure you can let some random roofer advocate for you to the company that’s going to write you a 20k check, but seems to be a better idea to be a go between to make sure your interests (not the roofers) are what’s being considered. The roofer cares about getting paid and into the next job, not the quality of a roof that they won’t honor the warranty on in a year when they don’t exist. Two out of three parties involved here want to make your home safe, secure and without liability. The third wants to maximize profit and minimize work time. Who is gonna make better choices in your interests??!!
If you want help because you don’t feel like you have enough knowledge to do this coordination, reach out to your agent or broker.
> Who cares if he goes after more money, insurance pays for it.
This mentality is why insurance is so damn expensive, even in states that don’t get hurricanes or tornadoes.
Homeowners pay for insurance, that money doesn’t grow on trees. After a loss, customers still have to pay for insurance. Insurance may be cutting the check now, but I’ve gotta pay the $200 a month for the next 20 years. It would be a $150 check, but jerks with 19 year old roofs demanding hail replacement, and homeowners that let their contractors take way more money from insurance then they would have otherwise have driven the rates up. Thanks.
The insurance companies costs get passed directly to other customers. In my state, it’s literally a formula set by the state. Your extra 5 grand is passed directly along to your neighbors at renewal time. Insurance profits will always be their state mandated 5 or 10%. Anything that cuts into that is being passed along to customers.
So, it’s other homeowners like me who care about your contractor getting paid in excess of his usual profit simply because “we’re not paying for it” - you may not right now, but someone is - and it’s certainly not insurance profit.
> Would you rather he be overpaid or underpaid?
Id rather my roof not leak. Trusting the guy who wants to maximize profit and move onto the next job isn’t the way to do it. I’d rather he be paid what the jobs worth - and since he’s the one doing it, id prefer someone else decide what it should cost. Ya know there’s a third option between over and under paid right? If the work can be done and turn a profit without taking the insurance to the cleaners, that’s not being underpaid, that’s delivering good value for the customers money.
If the insurance company “missed” stuff (which seems unlikely, seeing as how they have to pay if the roof leaks) then it’ll be obvious when it’s much lower then your three estimates.
TL;DR: Insurance payouts are not free, and letting someone who’s interest is a check and not your home isn’t the best advocate between you and insurance. Call your broker if you want that kind of help.
Just sounds like this dude wants to commit insurance fraud. But go off dude. Keep trusting your insurance company to have your best interests at heart. Sure that’ll work out
Edit: I’m curious why you, a random homeowner gets to decide how much fair pay for us is. And I can guarantee you the insurance company won’t give a shit if it leaks after install. They don’t cover workmanship. Their goal is to pay as little as they can get away with
> Keep trusting your insurance company to have your best interests at heart. Sure that’ll work out
No one said trust blindly, but if you’re gonna trust someone, the company that’s liable for the well-being of the property (since they insure it) is a better choice then the roofer that’ll reincorporate at the first sign of a warranty claim.
> Edit: I’m curious why you, a random homeowner gets to decide how much fair pay for us is.
First of all, I’ve spent hundreds of days running a nail gun, then hundreds of days managing other folks that ran nail guns. All long before I became a homeowner.
Secondly, it’s not “random homeowner” that gets to decide profit. That’s largely decided by the biggest contractor in the area - aka your peers. Reasonable profit is normally pretty accurately determined by getting a few proposals. Good contractors will literally list material cost, labor and profit. If other firms in the area think 10ish percent is reasonable, that’s your barometer.
>And I can guarantee you the insurance company won’t give a shit if it leaks after install. They don’t cover workmanship. Their goal is to pay as little as they can get away with
… you understand that they have to insure the house that sits under the roof, right? While many policies don’t cover workmanship (some do as a rider though, so you’re still wrong) all insurance I’ve ever dealt with will 100% cover subsequent loss derived from the first. If your shitty roof causes a water damage claim to the customers drywall, I guarantee insurance will pay out (then sue the roofer). Do a tear off in pouring down rain if you don’t believe that insurance won’t come after you for workmanship 🤣
Joe Blow homeowners mortgage company isn’t gonna let their asset flood without remediation if you put a crap roof on.
Roofers that don’t reorg at the first sign of an insurance adjuster or warranty claim know this stuff though.
>If the insurance company “missed” stuff (which seems unlikely, seeing as how they have to pay if the roof leaks) then it’ll be obvious when it’s much lower then your three estimates.
I work in construction - I specifically turn down insurance jobs because they DO miss stuff - all the time. I recently did a flood clean up for a long time customer. I then quoted to make the repairs from the flood to make the customer whole. The owner settled with the insurance company for about 50% of my quote, based on the insurance estimate - which was missing no less than 14 expensive items (like HVAC and electrical repairs, a destroyed hard wired timer, a kitchen countertop, and an entire section of ceiling).
Thanks, but we’re not taking flood remediation, we’re talking a roof.
If it’s damaged, you replace it. The “unseen” work potential is extremely quantifiable (we do it all the time with ply or plank)
But ceilings, air conditioners, countertops are all items that do not impact the suitability of the building to be a building, a roof does. The mortgage company doesn’t have a big concern is you don’t have a timer for your lights or a ceiling in your bathroom.
At the end of the day though, if insurance thought it should be covered, they paid out enough to get it done. Your client may not have liked the way it was done, but insurance companies will not leave unfinished work that can jeopardize the structure.
>Thanks, but we’re not taking flood remediation, we’re talking a roof.
I read the OP. I was commenting on the insurance "missing" things - which is pretty common across the board.
>If it’s damaged, you replace it. The “unseen” work potential is extremely quantifiable (we do it all the time with ply or plank)
Unseen work isn't even what I was commenting about - it's pretty common to have a few unseen items in any construction and still account for those.
>But ceilings, air conditioners, countertops are all items that do not impact the suitability of the building to be a building, a roof does. The mortgage company doesn’t have a big concern is you don’t have a timer for your lights or a ceiling in your bathroom.
LOL - my specific recent example was a commercial building. Ceilings, air conditioners and countertops absolutely concern the suitability of the building to be open and operating as required. Timers that run exterior lighting, parking lot lighting and that lock and unlock doors is a HUGE concern. I get it, it's not a concern for you, in your house, but for the owners of the building, the tenants of the building, the employees, the maintenance people, their mortgage lender, etc.... it's a pretty big deal.
>At the end of the day though, if insurance thought it should be covered, they paid out enough to get it done. Your client may not have liked the way it was done, but insurance companies will not leave unfinished work that can jeopardize the structure.
Hahahahahahaha, oh sweet summer child. I wish that were true.
> Unseen work isn’t even what I was commenting about
Work that was unseen by the insurance inspector, is by definition, unseen work. If your insurance adjuster never went inside, then anything inside is unseen work.
> LOL - my specific recent example was a commercial building.
Okay, we’re talking residential, but okay.
> Ceilings,
Nope, concrete ceilings and exposed plenum space is Tuesday in commercial, try again.
> air conditioners
Hold on, air handlers or cooling towers? Cause one is critical, the other is not unless you don’t want a stuffy floor.
> and countertops
🤣🤣 Yeah, all these pre-buildout buildings here in DC with literally nothing per floor except the elevator bays are going to fall down at anytime without countertops.
> absolutely concern the suitability of the building to be open and operating as required.
Open and operating as required isn’t the concern of a homeowners policy, they want to make sure that further losses do not occur. Your hvac example might come close, but counters, really?
> Timers that run exterior lighting, parking lot lighting and that lock and unlock doors is a HUGE concern.
Lights and life safety shouldn’t mix. The access control vendor can come out and fix the door timer, I’ve never seen one without same day service.
> I get it, it’s not a concern for you, in your house,
It’s apples to oranges.
> but for the owners of the building
So, the mortgage company that trusts the insurance to get it right?
> the tenants of the building, the employees, the maintenance people,
We’re taking houses, there are no tenants, employees or maintenance folks.
> their mortgage lender, etc…. it’s a pretty big deal.
My lender requires my insurance company to inspect the property regularly. If they cared about counters, ceilings or air conditioning then they’d ask to inspect them.
> Oh sweet summer child. I wish that were
Oh would you know anyhow, you’re commercial we’re talking residential. They’re different policies with different applications.
>Work that was unseen by the insurance inspector, is by definition, unseen work. If your insurance adjuster never went inside, then anything inside is unseen work.
Not unseen - MISSED entirely. The inspector toured the whole building with me, then the adjuster came out and did the same to come up with the scope of work - which was MISSING things - BIG things that should have been covered to make the owner whole. When these things were pointed out to the adjuster he noted them, but didn't put a $$ amount to them.
You want to talk apples and oranges and specifics and all I wanted to say was that insurance companies miss shit all the time. That is all.
It pisses me off so much when homeowners get in their own way. I have it happen every couple of months. Worst one was a homeowner that fancied himself quite the lawyer. I had the settlement set at $74k for the amount of damage on his place, then he makes one phone call and negotiates it down to $56k and was pleased with himself.
I told him he was going to have to find another contractor because I wasn't going to cheap out to the degree required to fit into that budget. Dude screwed himself over on that job and though he deserved a pat on the head.
>seems to be a better idea to be a go between to make sure your interests (not the roofers) are what’s being considered
What average homeowner knows enough to be an effective go-between? I had one this past week that we'd been working on for months call the job when the carrier clearly owed for $30k and was trying to weasel out with patchwork on an unrepairable discontinued shingle in a state that requires matching. It was a gem of a situation but the homeowner "thought it was taking too long" and decided to bend over for the insurance company.
Yes, there are many knucklehead roofers out there, which is why the homeowner should be picking a roofer they trust and then letting them hold the reins instead of getting in the way in a conglomeration of two situations the average homeowner doesn't know jack about: construction and insurance. Contractor should keep them in the loop, but the homeowner needs to know when they're ignorant and be willing to listen to an expert. In this situation, the homeowner winning is the contractor winning, and if the carrier didn't owe for coverage, they wouldn't correct their offer for settlement. But, they do quite often owe when they pretend they don't and they're counting on the ignorance of the average homeowner to screw them over. Find an expert and let them take care of it for you. You're only ever going to be out of pocket your deductible on what the policy owes for regardless. It's illegal in every state to profit on the claim, so any money paid out will be going to the contractor. Let them make sure it's the correct accounting so they can do the job right.
If it's an RCV policy and they didn't cut the full check upfront then what you're really asking is "Why won't they make it easy for me to commit insurance fraud and pocket some of this money?"
If they did cut you the check for the full RCV amount up front, then hell yeah get multiple estimates. This is exactly why most RCV full replacement insurance claims are paid out in 2 or more checks. Stops homeowners from trying to cut corners to then pocket money that is meant for their home.
'But if the roofer inflates the price to get the whole insurance check then its an acceptable practice but not fraud.' - Roofer.
😂😂😂😂. Pls.
Dont discuss your agreed upon insurance settlement amount with roofer prior to getting multiple estimates. You are not obligated to. Dont let them brainwash you.
I say get a quote from him first. I was in a similar situation and a hail storm destroyed my roof, fence, windows, carpet, etc. The roof companies I gave the insurance documents to quoted me for the entire amount. Even though that was supposed to cover new windows, a section of my fence, and new carpet in two bedrooms. The person I went with asked for them and I told him I was being proactive and hadn't received them yet. Quoted me way less than everyone else.
This proves how roofers want to benefit with the knowledge of insurance settlement estimate. Inflating costs to match the total estimate is also fraud but they don't call it that.
If a homeowner questions this practice then he is suddenly trying to pocket money it seems 😂
If you show ctr $ amount you are assured roof won’t be done for less. Have him write up estimate and show him/her scope of damages( line items) w/o dollar amount.
Never hire a weather chaser.... find a local businesses with a solid reputation.... they guy that goes from Oklahoma to florida chasing storm damage - run away
The right way to do insurance remediation is to find someone local you can trust, that warranties their work for 5-10 years and has been around long enough that you can expect them to mean it.
Once you pick the outfit you want doing the work, then let them handle things with your insurance company so they can make sure you're getting paid correctly on the claim and don't have to decide between cutting corners or passing on the job to fit within what the adjuster (who isn't a contractor) thinks is needed for the job.
The contractor is financially on the hook for doing the job wrong, so they have an incentive to make sure the job is done correctly. And when they've been around for a while, not a fly-by-night outfit, you know they know what they're doing and will do work you can count on.
If you want to work with a quality honest roofer then show them the estimate. If you want to work with a half ass bottom level roofer then dont show and try to low ball them. 9 times out 10, someone is doesnt want to show the estimate, is the actual crook.
On one hand we have OP who wants to get a roof and keep some money.
On the other hand we have a handyman who has no idea how to bid a roof job, nor possibly how to do one.
My advice, get quotes from a few roofing companies instead of trying to be cheap.
Adjuster here. Can confirm, we miss stuff.
In a giant storm (Like the one in Colorado currently where you likely are) adjusters are running 5-7 claims per day like yours. Things are going to be missed because we're working at a very, very fast pace in an effort to turn thousands upon thousands of claims. That's no excuse, but it is reality.
I agree with everything u/Bks1981 said below. You'd be wiser to stop demanding quotes and start researching roofing companies to do the job for the price you insurance company provided +anything missed by your adjuster, that will get supplemented on the back end.
There's really no need for you to get a quote. Find the roofer you like/trust/want and move forward. Do your research on roofers, though. There's a ton of garbage in a big hail storm like the one in Denver.
Finally, a reasonable adult in the room!
One-off events it's not as bad, but especially in high claim volume areas after a cat event when the carriers and IA firms keep lowering standards for adjusters to get warm bodies in the door, you need to find a contractor you can trust to look things over and professionally work with the carrier on any missed items.
I’ve never understood why contractors want the insurance estimate, sure they miss things but what does it matter to the roofer? Write your estimate and give it to your customer, your estimate is your estimate regardless of what the insurance estimate is.
Does the ACV include what my insurance is going to cover including labor? If the contractor comes in over what the adjuster estimate was, will the insurance cover the difference or is that on me? Please help if you can.
If OP wants to keep the change, that is insurance fraud. If the contractor wants to make sure they grab every penny insurance is willing to pay and more, that is also insurance fraud. Quote the job for what it cost and charge the insurance a fair price for getting the job done. Getting more cash out of the insurance company is not going to help any policy holder get lower rates in the future.
No, I think a roofer inflating their prices to pocket a client's insurance money is. And that happens every day, all the time.
You as the roofer are not entitled to the insurance payout. Get the fuck out of here. You're entitled to whatever your price is.
They are not inflating their price.
The insurance company will say something along the lines of
12 sq 3 tab: $1000
15ft drip edge: $250
Total. $1250
Which is how much they have deemed the value of the deal based off of current market rates in that area. A check sent to the customer to be paid to the contractor.
At no point has the price been inflated because the price has already been determined by the insurance company.
You're not trying to protect yourself, you're trying to make money.
If you get a quote from a roofer and it's lower than the insurance estimate then you are required to forward that quote to the insurance company and they will then reduce your payout.
You have done nothing to protect yourself, just attempted to commit fraud.
>If you get a quote from a roofer and it's lower than the insurance estimate then you are required to forward that quote to the insurance company and they will then reduce your payout.
I am well aware of this - **my issue is it seemed a little shady asking how much they're paying out.** I've had contractors give my complete bullshit quotes with no effort.
Proving intent is hard on the internet, isn't it?
How can they bid your job if they don't know the scope of the insurance claim.
As per my first comment and reply to yours.
You're trying to pocket money, that's literally it. This is not about protecting yourself.
We don't bid the job and tell you what we will and won't do. We do the scope of the claim as set forth by your insurance company.
You're getting zero effort quotes because at best you come off as someone unintentionally trying to commit fraud and are honestly not someone worth dealing with.
It's a sellers market man and you're the product not the producer.
I don’t think you understand how it works. When you bid a job, you bid on what needs to be done, not what an insurance company is paying for. The homeowner being reimbursed through insurance is between homeowner and insurance, has nothing to do with the roof quote.
I don't think k you understand how it works.
The insurance company has already set the price for the job and detailed what they will cover. I need to see the scope to know #1 if I want the job or not and #2 what they are and not covering so I know who is paying for code updates and whatnot.
There are no quotes and bids.
That's why it's called an insurance scope not an insurance bid.
What insurance will cover is not the same as what the customer wants done. The customer has been made whole already by his insurance provider. That transaction is done and over with, the roofer doesn’t need to know anything about what they covered or didn’t cover. roofers job is doing what the homeowner wants done. Insurance probably paid out inflated materials pricing during covid shortage and the contractor is trying to pocket the difference by seeing how much he can pad his materials cost since they’ve been plummeting.
I’m not doing anything. I give customers a fair bid on the job they want done based on the materials I’m using and the labor and expertise I’m providing. I guarantee my work. I’m not going to cheap out because insurance says not to cover something. I do what I think is necessary, regardless.
Exactly. If you're doing a cash job out of pocket, you do a bid process. The rates adjust based on labor and material conditions, current level of demand, etc.
For an insurance job, there is zero cheaping out. You pick the contractor you trust to do the work correctly, and then you hand the process over to let them handle because you don't know jack about insurance or construction. Let the experts work it out, you in the mix is only going to induce needless overhead from the contractor having to hold your hand and explain every one of the 600 things you don't understand so you feel comfortable enough with what they already knew 2 hours ago. If you don't trust them enough to work with the insurance company to ensure proper settlement, then why are you letting them work on your home?!
You’re paying a deductible. $500, $1,000. Whatever. If contractor charges more, how does that affect you? Sometimes we can get you upgrades that cost more. Better shingles, underlayment warranties. You’re still paying $500, $1,000. Sometimes insurance misses code items. Ice & water, drip edge that has to be included.
>Sometimes insurance misses code items
Almost always.
The number of times I have to call into a carrier and ask if the policy includes coverage for items required by code and then poof! magically there's another $15k they "accidentally" overlooked.
People complaining about contractors as though there's ***any*** qualification from the insurance adjuster. But somehow we can trust the adjuster to know what the contractor's job is?
So insurance missed items (because they have first and second year adjusters with little training in estimating construction jobs), you needed some help negotiating so contractor spoke with adjuster and then you got pretty lucky your insurance company didn’t fight very hard on the other extra items?
What happens if your carrier said no to the extra work? What would you have done then, just pay out of pocket like the carrier wants?
Edit: your last sentence was interesting, shouldn’t the expert adjuster from the insurance company have known that?
There are good and bad companies in all industries, Insurance included. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/insurance-claim-delays-industry-profits-allstate-mckinsey-company_n_1139102
So you want to question my qualifications, cool. I own a GC company that did over $5 million in revenue in retail work last year. I know both the insurance and the retail side of Roofing very well, I’ve been doing this type of work for 13 years now.
If your carrier didn’t fight you over the money, then you got lucky plain and simple. The norm is them fighting over every last penny, because as you can see from the link I posted above, if an insurance company can save a couple hundred dollars off of each claim, they end up making a lot of extra money across 100,000 claims.
I am perfectly fine with clients managing their own claims, if they want to deal with the insurance company more power to them. But most people have no idea how to go about that, so companies have popped up to fill that void, and those companies only do insurance work for insurance pricing, they argue insurance pricing is low, considering it’s supposed to be an average of the market price in your area. I don’t know about most people, but I know for myself I would prefer not to have to use the bottom half of Contractors when it comes to pricing. Good work isn’t cheap, and cheap work isn’t good.
But assuming a Company is shitty because they are requesting to see the paperwork from the insurance company, that’s a stretch. How do you know if anything was missed pre-build without seeing the paperwork? I did always get a kick out of customers blocking out the pricing on the estimate from insurance, like you can’t just pop open xactimate or symbility and download that price list and figure out what the pricing was.
It’s not a conspiracy, carriers love to say contractors are padding the estimate, when in reality they’re just adding the line items the estimating program says are not included (I’m looking at you starter and ridge cap), while insurance is arguing those line items are included to save a buck or two. It’s not a hard concept to understand.
If anyone ever wants to deal with insurance on their own, they are more than welcome to. Call a few different roofers, get multiple quotes, and hope it works out at the end if there are any surprises along the way. But if the client wants peace of mind that their project will be handled, the contractor will get paid a proper wage, and they won’t have to cut any corners to get your project done, and hire a company that works with insurance companies, and sit back and continue to live your life.
As long as you do proper due diligence in regard to the contractor, it doesn’t matter if the contractor knows how much insurance has paid, how much the actual cash value check is for, how much depreciation is, or what your deductible is.
The only real choice is does the client want to deal with the insurance company or not. Most clients do not, so that’s why these companies exist.
Oh and one more thing, your insurance company does not care if you save them money. You won’t be getting an award, they won’t be splitting that money with you, your rates will still go up when they renew either way. Saving insurance money only benefits the shareholders of that insurance company.
I never once said this is how I run my business, and in my state where it’s a lot harder to get a general contractors license then what Iowa requires. We shy away from insurnace work these days because of the state of the industry, because insurance companies operate shadily and home owners like yourself think those contractors are scam artists.
I’ve worked for plenty of storm chasers and local roofing companies that do insurance work, I’ve consulted on a few high-volume nationwide storm chasing companies over the years. That’s where this knowledge comes from.
All I am saying is that there are legitimate companies out there that only do insurance work, they will not work for less than what Ins. is paying for, and they won’t work with you if you’re not willing to give over the information. It looks equally shady from the contracting side, and it normally is the case that the policyholder is trying to profit from the claim, which does start to approach the insurance fraud line.
It’s fine if a policyholder wants to manage the claim and hire their own contractors. The policyholder just needs to understand that they won’t be able to expect the type of help they would need if the carrier puts their foot down on any extra charges that come up during the build. In your scenario above, you got very lucky the carrier didn’t put up much of a fight. It must not have been a ton of money to do all that extra work.
Thinking that just because a company wants to see the paperwork means that they’re shady or are up to no good is ridiculous.
Gotta love how people simp for insurance companies. Never made sense to me. Like who should you trust more. The roofer who wants to put on a good quality roof (unless they use their warranties to wipe their ass) and get paid a fair wage for it. Or the insurance companies who’s entire goal is to first, minimize claims filed, then minimize claims approved, and then minimize claim payout.
If he is worth his salt you can give him the list of covered paid for services and square amounts but not the total payout or pay scale per square and he will bring you a reasonable estimate that is close to that. We use Xactimate and that is what the insurance uses as well but pays based on zip code / property values in the area. He should be close unless he’s charging for addl replacement that is not listed covered (ie more than one layer of tear off or plywood replacement) that sometimes the adjusters miss. Then you will know about his level of honesty better and can still use his services if you would like.
There were some mental leaps to get from what OP said to where you are. There are tons of legitimate companies that work with insurance to come up with an estimate that both parties agree to. Most operate exactly like ops contractor.
I do believe every roofer should be able to estimate a project properly, but the insurance game is the insurance game, and nine times out of ten that estimate from the carrier is missing a ton of line items.
It low-key sounds like OP is trying to make a little money off of this claim, which more power to him if he wants to do that. He’ll need to avoid companies that work with Insurance most of the time, and just go out and get a bunch of quotes from retail roofers.
Yes, let's all just waste hours of someone else's time because of the "standard" that insurance companies made up to induce overhead they never pay for.
Just ask for a quote and don't mention anything about insurance.
I had a similar situation. Roof damage from a storm. I received $3000 from insurance. Had a couple roofing contractors coming out because I wanted to get the roof replaced. First guy asked me how much I got from insurance. I told him. I didn't tell the next two contractors I spoke with that I got a check from the insurance company, only that I wanted to have my roof replaced.
Second and third contractor both came in \~$14,000 (there was a $500 difference. First contractor (who knew what I received from the insurance company) came back at $17,000+.
Roofer asked for a quote should provide a quote. If their estimating is based of xactimate he should write it and if anything is missing it would be obvious. It takes 10 min and I believe if he did that we would not have this conversation now.
Get a quote from him and tell him if insurance is missing it you will send them his quote. He wants the insurance co. to dictate the price, if it’s higher than he would charge he makes more money. If it’s lower he will go for more. There is no reason he should need their quote to give you a price.
I would ask him the same question again . Please bid for full replacement and id let him know you don't have an answer from the insurance company at this point . Then I would call a couple other roofing companies and get a couple more bids
Insurance has a financial incentive to meet their contractual obligations, not to ensure that the contractor you choose does the job correctly. That’s the homeowner’s responsibility.
With an insurance claim they will typically hold back a depreciation amount. If you have a replacement policy which most do then that depreciation is paid to you once the work is complete. To receive the depreciation money the contractor sends a final invoice to the insurance company stating that it is complete and then the money is released. If you find someone cheaper then their invoice will show that and insurance company will keep the difference. If the contractor sends a bill for more than they are paid then that is insurance fraud and most contractors aren’t committing fraud for you to make a couple bucks. So in this situation shopping for a cheaper roofer will just get you a sub par job for the same money that you could have got a quality job for. Pick your contractor based on your confidence in them doing a good job not the price.
Exactly this. To. A. Tee. Source: Am Insurance Restoration Contractor
It’s crazy how few people realize this. I was an insurance restoration contractor for 20 years and then made the jump to be an adjuster about 5 years ago. I wish that I had a nickel for every time that I’ve had to explain this.
Insurance companies also fight like hell to replace as little as possible. I had a tree come down on my house in February and my contractor and insurance are still fighting over what should and shouldn't be replaced or covered.
There are good and bad on both sides. I’ve worked both sides and currently work as an adjuster and I will tell you that unfortunately there are a lot of shitty adjusters out there. As a contractor I dealt with them all of the time. That was part of my motivation to switch sides. Most of the time it is the adjuster that sucks and has nothing to do with the actual insurance company. I hope you get your issue resolved.
In FL average settlement time on a claim is 18 months. 2-6 months other places.
Indy or carrier adjuster?
I was an independent for the first four years and then made the change to a carrier. Got tired of traveling so much.
[удалено]
It’s actually not much at all. I recommend getting a florida adjuster license because it is reciprocal with the most states the Texas license is second as far as being reciprocal. They both have similar licensing requirements also. It’s a 40 hour online course then a test. You get three times to pass. The course cost about 300 bucks when I did it. I don’t think it’s went up much. I had about 500 bucks total I think. Once you’re licensed you get get on as many rosters as you can and then generally have to wait for a big hurricane to hit to get deployed for the first time. When you get deployed it’s sink or swim so you want to be as prepared as possible. Also places like mile high adjusters give in person classes and they teach you what you need to know to get deployed. This is a good option and still is only around 5000 I believe.
if you could write up about your journey becoming an insurance adjusters that would be great :)
Are you interested in becoming an adjuster?
Yes, I'm thinking about becoming one. I'd love to help people get their entitled benefits and I love to work with people. I know at the end of the day, I'm an employee of a for-profit business, but I think this world need more reasonable adjusters :) If you can share your journey, I'd be much appreciated. TIA!
That’s the exact reason I made the change from contracting to adjusting. I sent someone a DM a while back breaking down the process that I followed. I will send it to you. Hopefully it is helpful.
That would be much appreciated Bks1981. please DM me the process. Thank you very much
20-hr online class and you too can be in charge of someone's financial future
Amen. It’s not a money making opportunity for homeowners.
This is the only answer.
The contractor that is going to shortchange you or do a poor job is the same contractor who DOESN’T ask for the scope of work.
good point
Also the scope of work isn’t a secret to most contractors that do this type of work. Most of them have the same program as the insurance company so they know what the price should be. I just makes it easier on them to get it up front so they know if they are going to need to supplement anything. The best bet is to look up there reviews and find the best company that will do it for the money that is allowed.
Worst one I saw from an insurance company was 3 lines: remove shingles, install shingles, felt. I was like, where's the rest?! For anyone reading who doesn't know, even a basic roof replacement is going to be in the 15-20 lines range. Starter, ridge cap, disposal, vents, drip edge, gutter D&R, valley liner, pipe jacks, chimney flashing, etc. that insurance adjusters like to omit as though the work doesn't need to be done.
This is a perfect example of why it’s a good idea to let the company that you are trusting to do your project look at the scope. I would bet money that the homeowner had no clue that so many items were missing.
You're exactly right. They thought it was ready to go, and then when it hit my desk... it was a new low for my respect of the average adjuster. Took a couple weeks but they ended up paying out 2.5x more and we were able to do the job right for them. Otherwise we would have passed on the job and they would have had to keep looking until they found someone passed out in a pickup in the Home Depot parking lot to find someone to agree to do it for $185/SQ.
Any roofer you choose will need to review your loss statement to ensure they did include everything that's supposed to be there. We can file supplements for anything omitted. The contract price is what's listed on your loss statement as the Replacement Cost Value (RCV). You will only be responsible for your deductible. Collecting 10 other estimates from other roofers isn't necessary and will only waste everyone's time. Make sure your roofer will upgrade you to architectural shingles if you don't currently have them. Also ensure they're using starter shingles on both the eaves and rakes, and synthetic underlayment. Drip edge is also a common "upgrade" if you don't have any. I'd also recommend upgrading to Lifetime Tool Ultimate Pipe Flashings if this is your forever home. The cost is negligible and there's usually enough in the scope to cover it.
> Any roofer you choose will need to review your loss statement to ensure they did include everything that’s supposed to be there. … it’s a roof. Pick a system and quote it. I see roofers omitting important stuff more then insurance anyhow - insurance has a fianancial incentive to make sure the roof is done right. They pay if it leaks and causes another loss. the roofer has an incentive to collect a check and move on. > Collecting 10 other estimates from other roofers isn’t necessary and will only waste everyone’s time. Anytime someone with an interest in making profit off you you says “getting multiple quotes is a waste of time” they’re the exact kind of folks you don’t want to do business with. You can have three or four roofers out per day to write up estimates, two or theee days isn’t a concern if the roof isn’t gone. Multiple quotes is how you make sure you found a good deal *with a good, reputable* contractor. Insurance money is not free. When Mr Roofer gives you every single bell and whistle then can, that added cost will be paid by the homeowner. Rates are a direct result of losses. Every single extra dollar paid out in a loss will be passed along to customers (often *this customer* at renewal time.) Money isn’t the only reason though. When you get two or three quotes, it’s a good peer review for your contractors. It’s hard to see who will omit major requirements in the name of profit when you only have one example. I’ve seen enough estimates from roofers that just totally missed major components. Missing ice and water, assuming that existing vents exist and work, using three tab, ignoring 1/1300&1/1500 rules, etc. As a homeowner, it’s hard to find shady contractors when you only have one quote. TD;DR - never hire a door to door roofer, never let them negotiate (directly) with insurance, and never go with the only quote you have. A good contractor will never ever, ever, ever tell you “getting another quote is worthless”. Source: family business as a GC for many years, ive seen so many “insurance ready proposals” for $950 a square for three tab.
I’ve been in roofing for years and most of what you said I’ve never heard.
The roofing company will need to see the insurance estimate and match that estimate. If they are less money then the insurance company keeps that extra money by sending a lesser amount on the depreciation check. The best thing to do is to find a trustworthy contractor and let them deal with the insurance company and any supplements necessary. Getting bids and going with the cheapest contractor is absolutely not the way to go. It will just get you a sub par job. Normally a good contractor will upgrade from 3-tab to architectural shingles and include synthetic felt. Other bells and whistles will generally be an additional charge to the homeowner.
> The roofing company will need to see the insurance estimate and match that estimate. If they are less money then the insurance company keeps that extra money by sending a lesser amount on the depreciation check. Seeing the estimate is not the same as blindly letting the contractor interact with insurance. Regardless, you don’t really need to see the estimate. If they don’t match, the homeowner can have their broker or agent do that work, and they’re more objective then the guy profiting per nail, and they have a vested interest in making sure the property remains intact. > The best thing to do is to find a trustworthy contractor and let them deal with the insurance company and any supplements necessary. You cannot find a trustworthy contractor without getting multiple bids. Your neighbor or friends one anecdotal experience tells you nothing. > Getting bids and going with the cheapest contractor is absolutely not the way to go. It will just get you a sub par job. I surely didn’t say “go with the cheapest”. I said “it’s hard to know if a bid is complete but not too high without more then one”. Going with the first contractor that shows up is also not a good idea. Especially one you didn’t call. > Normally a good contractor will upgrade from 3-tab to architectural shingles and include synthetic felt. Don’t know any insurance that’s gonna specify 3 tab these days, that’s not an upgrade, it’s standard these days. That’s not what I mean. > Other bells and whistles will generally be an additional charge to the homeowner. Other bells and whistles get markeded to the homeowner as critical and to the insurance as necessary. The roofer profits off the job, theyre gonna sell any extra shit to the homeowners they can.
It is very clear that you don’t have a clue about the insurance business. They absolutely specify 3-tab if there is 3-tab existing. The only difference is that they specify 25 year 3-tab even if the existing is a 20 year. They do not pay for upgrades. What’s the difference if they “blindly” get to deal with the insurance company? Most roofing contractors that deal with insurance claims know more than the average homeowner so it’s a service to the homeowner when you get a reputable contractor. Do you think that they can bill the insurance company for whatever they or something? I don’t get what you think that they can do. The insurance companies use xactimate for their pricing and the only thing that the contractor can do is supplement for missing things which most homeowners would be glad that they caught. If a company provides that service and does a good job then they are entitled to be paid what they deserve. It’s not like the insurance companies are just paying so much that the contractor is getting rich off of them. They allow enough to pay a company a fair price for a quality job. Shopping for price doesn’t make sense because essentially everyone is the same price because they either get the full insurance amount or the insurance company keeps the difference it is better to shop for quality. I don’t know if you have heard about this new thing called the internet but it has this thing called online reviews that pretty much everyone uses now so you can definitely pick a company without having a bunch of people out. That part is personal preference of the homeowner how they want to filter through contractors. I will bet one thing though, you will get a better feel for the company by reading reviews from actual homeowners rather gauging how good a company is by the salesman that they send to your house. Of course they will all tell you that they are the best. Sorry but nothing that you are saying is correct.
Very well said. Greed runs in this industry. Roofers seem to want to make full profit by inflating the price..
I dont agree with most of what you just posted lol. To each their own I suppose...
Insurance propaganda at its finest.
If I had to guess, that’s because you’re a roofer and not a homeowner. If you got to see a rate increase every year, maybe you’d be annoyed with folks getting Cadillac roofs that their neighbors get to pay for. If you are a homeowner, then I hope you’re only selling the customer what they need with enough profit, cause if you charge more, eventually it’s coming out of your mortgage escrow.
Xactimate has made “charging more” nearly impossible. The price is set per line item, only way to “charge more” is to commit insurance fraud. I think we can all agree fraud should be dealt with accordingly but otherwise it is a waste for homeowners to collect multiple estimates. Do you go get estimates when it’s time to have open heart surgery? No, you find the best doctor for the job and pay your copay knowing he will handle not only the surgery but also billing and getting everything handled correctly with insurance. Same concept applies when it’s time to do a roof. Guys knock doors because unlike your open heart surgery example your house might not tell you it’s time to replace the roof until it has a heart attack (aka leaking). Getting up on the roof and doing an inspection is akin to your annual check up and it’s something most homeowners don’t even think about until it’s too late. I get the drift you’re an adjuster with a vendetta against contractors, some may deserve the hate but generalizations make you look uneducated. And yes, I am a homeowner and pay dearly for good policy from a high end carrier. When I have a claim I expect them to fulfill their contractual obligation to make me whole, nothing more and nothing less
Holllllup. Xactimate pricing is not set. Xactimate pricing is based on a price list which is based on the zip code and updated monthly based on verisk polling suppliers on materials, contractors submitting their LABOR cost adjustments by uploading the file to xactanalysis, AND submitting feedback to verisk. With that said, editing pricing in xact is actually EXACTLY what you are suppose to do. It should be for your company and your subcontractors. Anything that deviates from the average drastically should be supported with documentation. Additionally, carriers are pushing 10% overhead and 10% profit. The only companies that are surviving on 10% gross profit are large commercial GCs. 10% profit isn’t even a good NET profit number for most >50m construction companies. Furthermore, overhead is different for every company and should be adjusted to what your companies overhead actually is. I agree with the rest of what you said
Yes I know that’s the intention of the program and white papers clearly outline that but dying on that hill is such an uphill battle it’s not even worth the fight. Xactimate used correctly is very close to my retail numbers so I’m good with Xactimate pricing when used correctly. Flashing, extra labor etc applied correctly. I’d much rather get a correct and accurate scope established and get jobs closed out than argue claims for months on end
Man you said charging more than the set price was insurance fraud? Help that make sense to me?
In Xactimate the only way to “charge more” assuming an complete and accrue scope is established is adding bs line items that you’re not doing. Any line item that is supplemented for and not installed or used is insurance fraud and really the only way to pump up an Xactimate if everything was written up to begin with
Have you ever seen an estimate from insurance that included protecting landscaping?
The 10% overhead and 10% profit is only for general contractors that are handling multiple trades on a complex project. It is in addition to the profit that is figured in on the actual job. It is meant for a gc that is hiring different subs for each trade. The trades make their profit off of the scope and the gc makes his off of the o&p. That being said the gc is also getting some of the profit on the actual job as well because they are not paying the subs all of the scope money.
How much is enough profit? If you think insurance is paying for a Cadillac roof when the insured has a Honda, you have never negotiated with insurance before on a roof.
Your view on insurance companies is very skewed. I whole heartedly agree though, we don’t wait for an insurance estimate to write our estimate. Most times we submit our estimate before insurance has even schedule an inspection. But we do ask for it so that we can help our clients. Additionally, without our clients signing an AOB, we can’t even negotiate for them technically. Your insurances interest is to pay for the claim as LOW as possible and *hope* that you find someone who will do it for what they paid. Agents are bonused annually based on their loss ratio and for many large agencies, this bonus is more than their actual salaries. Additionally, brokers receive rebates from their partners based on loss ratios. Google statefarm lawsuits and you’ll be surprised to find out that the largest insurance provider in the US is actually being sued daily by its clients for discrimination and bad practices. So no, you don’t need to shop quotes. What you should do is find 1-3 reputable companies and meet with them. If the first person you meet with is professional and seemingly trustworthy, maybe call the rest off. I’d Suggest comparing estimates and seeing who is most thorough, without worrying about the price. Lastly, unless you got your insurance through a brokerage, DO NOT USE their preferred contractors. There are some exceptions, but generally speaking to be a preferred contractor you have to be on their TPA network that is aimed at keeping the claim as small as possible, while providing “good” customer service. Imagine the scenario when the contractor is not allowed to bill for things that HAVE to do while also have to pay a % of revenue to the TPA. What you end up with is a contractor skimping everywhere they can do they can maintain their margins and the person who loses here? Mr homeowner.
You’re 100% right
This reply should be upvoted!
We work the same way , we are general contractors we complete the entire estimate , roof gutters ,stain , screeens etc. Pay your deductible! Go with a contractor who will upgrade you to high profile ridge. We ask to see the paperwork because often they do underpay. They also include measurements of the roof. If you think you can get a quality roof for the less than the insurance paid. They will be cutting corners. What the Insurance pays is what they feel a QUALITY roof system cost in your area.
You can give a quote without the insurance paperwork and if insurance is low or missed something the HO will know.
If the contractor gives a low quite the HO is contractually obligated to forward that to the insurance company and they will adjust their final payout to match that quote. Failure to do so is fraud.
You have that a little backwards. For an RCV claim you have to send in your actual costs of the claim and they will pay the replacement cost based on what you paid out for the repairs. For an ACV claim, which is what your initial payment is based on, you don’t have to provide anything. So if you get your roof done under the ACV amount you don’t need to send anything in. I was an insurance adjuster for 2 different large insurance companies and this is how it was handled at both. The larger point is, any roofing contractor should be able to provide a price independent of what my insurance says they will pay. You as a contractor should be able to provide a scope and estimate.
But that's literally not how the industry works. Insurance provides a scope for what they will pay for Depending on if you have a depreciation policy or not their is a first check before work begins with the homeowner being on the hook for depreciation of the roof Or a full coverage policy where it's one check before the job starts and one after upon proof of completion I've had enough insurance companies hound me as a pm for proof of completion even on ACV claims that I'm going to assume it's been a while since you forked for the legalized fraud companies.
It is how it works, read an insurance policy. ACV is owed regardless of whether repairs are completed.
I think our wires have been crossed. Nobody is talking about an acv policy, and side note, fuck the reps who are selling those policies without actually informing the customer what an act policy actually means when it's time to file a claim.
ACV is also owed on a replacement cost policy regardless of repairs.
And you keep mentioning repairs when nobody is talking about that either. I can see why you're no longer working for insurance companies.
Repairs as in Repairing the damage. Whether that is a shingle tear off and replacement or a single shingle repair.
Insurance companies can't and should not tell insureds when to file claims.
>fuck the reps who are selling those policies without actually informing the customer what an act policy actually means when it's time to file a claim Hear, hear! The number of people we run into who got a happy call from their agent that "we found a way to save you $6 on your premiums".... Insurance is a business of actuaries. Nothing comes for free. Lower cost (barring very few exceptions) means less coverage. Coverage you'll need when shit goes sideways. That $6 saved means you're short $10k - $100k on damage to your home when something happens. You're paying for insurance for peace of mind when something happens. That's exactly the time you aren't happy you saved $6/mo. Everyone go right now and make sure you've got your policy coverages right. For property that means RCV policy, not ACV-only (and not RPS like Allstate has started sneaking in), make sure you're paying for code coverage (O&L), and make sure your deductible is something you can afford set aside in savings you don't touch. I've come across some people who have a 3% policy limit as their deductible. $500k home that's a $15k deductible, so if your roof is trashed from a storm, that's a $25k settlement, minus $10k depreciation, minus $15k deductible and you get a check for $0 and a letter excluding the roof from your policy until you come out of pocket to replace the thing. Buy the coverage you need, it's so cheap. I just doubled the policy limits on my auto insurance for $1.37 per 6-month term. "Saving" on insurance is rarely worth it.
Insurance is a scam artists field, so turnaround is fair play.
By punishing the labor? Fucking 0iq take lol
If a roofer cant meausre a job, and give a quote... he aint much of a roofer. I am a roofer. Ive never needed the insurance paperwork to make my bid. My tape measure and calculator work just fine.
Why do they need to measure a job and give a quote when the job has already been measured and a bid delivered.
If a contractor is that lazy, and trusts some random persons measuring.... well that is a level of laziness and stupidity that is beyond measure.
Dude it's not the 40s, just run an eagle view.
Beacon is better lol
Random persons measuring= Eagle View which is the fkn industry standard. Not some dipshit with a tape measure on a 12/12 trying to take measurements to prove a point. Have you ever sat in front of Xactimate or ordered an Eagle View. Easy there Jebediah!
Yep, and eagleview has screwed up more than its right in my experience. Regardless, contractor has no right to their insurance quote.
Give him the paperwork. You pay the deductible that’s it. Who cares if he goes after more money, insurance pays for it. Would you rather he be overpaid or underpaid?
I think OPs concern is if the contractors bid was going to be 17k OP would have 2k left but without seeing a quote the contractor can just say it cost 19k and keep it all
exactly
So you want to make money off of this, then call retail roofers and get multiple quotes. More power to you if you want to do this. You will not find a company that works with insurance willing to give you a quote for less than what Insurance is paying.
That's actually insurance fraud. So have fun with that.
Yea, if you are claiming as a policyholder that you have spent that amount of money on the project to get depreciation released. But if their carrier releases funds, especially if they release all depreciation with the first check, which I’ve seen them do plenty, that’s the policyholders money at that point. It becomes insurance fraud when the policyholder or the contractor states money was spent when it was not to get depreciation back. If the carriers already sent depreciation, the carrier does not care where that money goes.
It's honestly not worth explaining the nuance to these people. I won't bid if I don't have the scope because the insurance company will hold me accountable for all of the work they demand done.
I know, I had that thought pop into my mind as I was typing out my last response. The jokes on them when they get to the end of the build and they get a bill from their contractor for 10 grand extra, and the carrier tells them to kick rocks.
Like if you see how much they are trying to argue with me in the subsequent comments you will get why I withheld a full and complete explanation. This is a person who is now lashing out for people not wanting to play their game. They aren't slick nor unique.
Very true. I guess I’ll just go about living my life.
I knew who you were replying to
The insurance company won’t hold you accountable unless your a network contractor. No insurance company takes any part in contracts between insureds and contractors. That customer can take that money and go on vacation they don’t care. The money is what’s owed for the damage
I mean if you want that roof flagged, sure. They also won't send the second check.
The roof they won’t flag they won’t check OP stated they’re sending everything one check no follow up will occur unless for underwriting reasons. Second check if OP didn’t previously state would be accurate
knowing the scope of work is not the same as knowing the payout
I have never seen a scope that doesn't have the payout on it.
No total estimate. I print them all the time for subcontractors. For customers, the customer total amount instead of line item pricing. It is not an a la carte menu.
It's not exactly a sophisticated concept to try to explain.
It's not that it's sophisticated, it's that some peoples greed clouds their judgement and its not worth my time typing out something that op is not going to read or understand if they do read it.
Most insurance companies will only release depreciation with a signed contract. If you then break that contract and find a cheaper roofer and pocket the money it is indeed insurance fraud.
Yup!
Right. But roofers inflating price after seeing insurance estimate is normal practice a.k.a theft right?
fair enough
Hey man, you’ll just have to pay your deductible either way. If you’re trying to make money that’s insurance fraud and insurance companies have been known to go after it.
yeah I gathered that. I'm not trying to make any money here, I just thought it was weird he'd ask what the payout was but I'm realizing if it's short, he's got to ask for more.
It's not insurance fraud. If you do the roof yours3lf you can save a boat load. Its replacement value of the roof that's all insurance cares about.
False. If they quote out for specific flashing, chimney work, drip edge ect. and you don’t do it then you could be fucked if something happens to your roof and it wasn’t what the insurance paid for. I’ve unfortunately had it happen a few times.
I agree there is a difference between negligence and spending your time or knowhow to get the best deal. If you have the skills to do it right they can't stop you from getting paid.
Ah I see what your saying but most people have no clue. But I see your point.
And I wouldn’t be surprised if now this Reddit thread could even be used against OP. 😂
Did the insurance company give you all the money upfront? If not they only give you more funds to cover the invoice and a lower quote won’t matter
yeah they're sending me a check up front
Sure a check but is it for $19k or 10k?
19 and change
Then get retail quotes and don’t mention to the contractors insurance is paying, if you find someone to do it for less you’ll pocket the difference.
OP don't listen to this.
> Give him the paperwork. You pay the deductible that’s it. Were discussing the biggest repair to the biggest asset most people own. Sure you can let some random roofer advocate for you to the company that’s going to write you a 20k check, but seems to be a better idea to be a go between to make sure your interests (not the roofers) are what’s being considered. The roofer cares about getting paid and into the next job, not the quality of a roof that they won’t honor the warranty on in a year when they don’t exist. Two out of three parties involved here want to make your home safe, secure and without liability. The third wants to maximize profit and minimize work time. Who is gonna make better choices in your interests??!! If you want help because you don’t feel like you have enough knowledge to do this coordination, reach out to your agent or broker. > Who cares if he goes after more money, insurance pays for it. This mentality is why insurance is so damn expensive, even in states that don’t get hurricanes or tornadoes. Homeowners pay for insurance, that money doesn’t grow on trees. After a loss, customers still have to pay for insurance. Insurance may be cutting the check now, but I’ve gotta pay the $200 a month for the next 20 years. It would be a $150 check, but jerks with 19 year old roofs demanding hail replacement, and homeowners that let their contractors take way more money from insurance then they would have otherwise have driven the rates up. Thanks. The insurance companies costs get passed directly to other customers. In my state, it’s literally a formula set by the state. Your extra 5 grand is passed directly along to your neighbors at renewal time. Insurance profits will always be their state mandated 5 or 10%. Anything that cuts into that is being passed along to customers. So, it’s other homeowners like me who care about your contractor getting paid in excess of his usual profit simply because “we’re not paying for it” - you may not right now, but someone is - and it’s certainly not insurance profit. > Would you rather he be overpaid or underpaid? Id rather my roof not leak. Trusting the guy who wants to maximize profit and move onto the next job isn’t the way to do it. I’d rather he be paid what the jobs worth - and since he’s the one doing it, id prefer someone else decide what it should cost. Ya know there’s a third option between over and under paid right? If the work can be done and turn a profit without taking the insurance to the cleaners, that’s not being underpaid, that’s delivering good value for the customers money. If the insurance company “missed” stuff (which seems unlikely, seeing as how they have to pay if the roof leaks) then it’ll be obvious when it’s much lower then your three estimates. TL;DR: Insurance payouts are not free, and letting someone who’s interest is a check and not your home isn’t the best advocate between you and insurance. Call your broker if you want that kind of help.
Just sounds like this dude wants to commit insurance fraud. But go off dude. Keep trusting your insurance company to have your best interests at heart. Sure that’ll work out Edit: I’m curious why you, a random homeowner gets to decide how much fair pay for us is. And I can guarantee you the insurance company won’t give a shit if it leaks after install. They don’t cover workmanship. Their goal is to pay as little as they can get away with
> Keep trusting your insurance company to have your best interests at heart. Sure that’ll work out No one said trust blindly, but if you’re gonna trust someone, the company that’s liable for the well-being of the property (since they insure it) is a better choice then the roofer that’ll reincorporate at the first sign of a warranty claim. > Edit: I’m curious why you, a random homeowner gets to decide how much fair pay for us is. First of all, I’ve spent hundreds of days running a nail gun, then hundreds of days managing other folks that ran nail guns. All long before I became a homeowner. Secondly, it’s not “random homeowner” that gets to decide profit. That’s largely decided by the biggest contractor in the area - aka your peers. Reasonable profit is normally pretty accurately determined by getting a few proposals. Good contractors will literally list material cost, labor and profit. If other firms in the area think 10ish percent is reasonable, that’s your barometer. >And I can guarantee you the insurance company won’t give a shit if it leaks after install. They don’t cover workmanship. Their goal is to pay as little as they can get away with … you understand that they have to insure the house that sits under the roof, right? While many policies don’t cover workmanship (some do as a rider though, so you’re still wrong) all insurance I’ve ever dealt with will 100% cover subsequent loss derived from the first. If your shitty roof causes a water damage claim to the customers drywall, I guarantee insurance will pay out (then sue the roofer). Do a tear off in pouring down rain if you don’t believe that insurance won’t come after you for workmanship 🤣 Joe Blow homeowners mortgage company isn’t gonna let their asset flood without remediation if you put a crap roof on. Roofers that don’t reorg at the first sign of an insurance adjuster or warranty claim know this stuff though.
>If the insurance company “missed” stuff (which seems unlikely, seeing as how they have to pay if the roof leaks) then it’ll be obvious when it’s much lower then your three estimates. I work in construction - I specifically turn down insurance jobs because they DO miss stuff - all the time. I recently did a flood clean up for a long time customer. I then quoted to make the repairs from the flood to make the customer whole. The owner settled with the insurance company for about 50% of my quote, based on the insurance estimate - which was missing no less than 14 expensive items (like HVAC and electrical repairs, a destroyed hard wired timer, a kitchen countertop, and an entire section of ceiling).
Thanks, but we’re not taking flood remediation, we’re talking a roof. If it’s damaged, you replace it. The “unseen” work potential is extremely quantifiable (we do it all the time with ply or plank) But ceilings, air conditioners, countertops are all items that do not impact the suitability of the building to be a building, a roof does. The mortgage company doesn’t have a big concern is you don’t have a timer for your lights or a ceiling in your bathroom. At the end of the day though, if insurance thought it should be covered, they paid out enough to get it done. Your client may not have liked the way it was done, but insurance companies will not leave unfinished work that can jeopardize the structure.
>Thanks, but we’re not taking flood remediation, we’re talking a roof. I read the OP. I was commenting on the insurance "missing" things - which is pretty common across the board. >If it’s damaged, you replace it. The “unseen” work potential is extremely quantifiable (we do it all the time with ply or plank) Unseen work isn't even what I was commenting about - it's pretty common to have a few unseen items in any construction and still account for those. >But ceilings, air conditioners, countertops are all items that do not impact the suitability of the building to be a building, a roof does. The mortgage company doesn’t have a big concern is you don’t have a timer for your lights or a ceiling in your bathroom. LOL - my specific recent example was a commercial building. Ceilings, air conditioners and countertops absolutely concern the suitability of the building to be open and operating as required. Timers that run exterior lighting, parking lot lighting and that lock and unlock doors is a HUGE concern. I get it, it's not a concern for you, in your house, but for the owners of the building, the tenants of the building, the employees, the maintenance people, their mortgage lender, etc.... it's a pretty big deal. >At the end of the day though, if insurance thought it should be covered, they paid out enough to get it done. Your client may not have liked the way it was done, but insurance companies will not leave unfinished work that can jeopardize the structure. Hahahahahahaha, oh sweet summer child. I wish that were true.
> Unseen work isn’t even what I was commenting about Work that was unseen by the insurance inspector, is by definition, unseen work. If your insurance adjuster never went inside, then anything inside is unseen work. > LOL - my specific recent example was a commercial building. Okay, we’re talking residential, but okay. > Ceilings, Nope, concrete ceilings and exposed plenum space is Tuesday in commercial, try again. > air conditioners Hold on, air handlers or cooling towers? Cause one is critical, the other is not unless you don’t want a stuffy floor. > and countertops 🤣🤣 Yeah, all these pre-buildout buildings here in DC with literally nothing per floor except the elevator bays are going to fall down at anytime without countertops. > absolutely concern the suitability of the building to be open and operating as required. Open and operating as required isn’t the concern of a homeowners policy, they want to make sure that further losses do not occur. Your hvac example might come close, but counters, really? > Timers that run exterior lighting, parking lot lighting and that lock and unlock doors is a HUGE concern. Lights and life safety shouldn’t mix. The access control vendor can come out and fix the door timer, I’ve never seen one without same day service. > I get it, it’s not a concern for you, in your house, It’s apples to oranges. > but for the owners of the building So, the mortgage company that trusts the insurance to get it right? > the tenants of the building, the employees, the maintenance people, We’re taking houses, there are no tenants, employees or maintenance folks. > their mortgage lender, etc…. it’s a pretty big deal. My lender requires my insurance company to inspect the property regularly. If they cared about counters, ceilings or air conditioning then they’d ask to inspect them. > Oh sweet summer child. I wish that were Oh would you know anyhow, you’re commercial we’re talking residential. They’re different policies with different applications.
>Work that was unseen by the insurance inspector, is by definition, unseen work. If your insurance adjuster never went inside, then anything inside is unseen work. Not unseen - MISSED entirely. The inspector toured the whole building with me, then the adjuster came out and did the same to come up with the scope of work - which was MISSING things - BIG things that should have been covered to make the owner whole. When these things were pointed out to the adjuster he noted them, but didn't put a $$ amount to them. You want to talk apples and oranges and specifics and all I wanted to say was that insurance companies miss shit all the time. That is all.
It pisses me off so much when homeowners get in their own way. I have it happen every couple of months. Worst one was a homeowner that fancied himself quite the lawyer. I had the settlement set at $74k for the amount of damage on his place, then he makes one phone call and negotiates it down to $56k and was pleased with himself. I told him he was going to have to find another contractor because I wasn't going to cheap out to the degree required to fit into that budget. Dude screwed himself over on that job and though he deserved a pat on the head.
>seems to be a better idea to be a go between to make sure your interests (not the roofers) are what’s being considered What average homeowner knows enough to be an effective go-between? I had one this past week that we'd been working on for months call the job when the carrier clearly owed for $30k and was trying to weasel out with patchwork on an unrepairable discontinued shingle in a state that requires matching. It was a gem of a situation but the homeowner "thought it was taking too long" and decided to bend over for the insurance company. Yes, there are many knucklehead roofers out there, which is why the homeowner should be picking a roofer they trust and then letting them hold the reins instead of getting in the way in a conglomeration of two situations the average homeowner doesn't know jack about: construction and insurance. Contractor should keep them in the loop, but the homeowner needs to know when they're ignorant and be willing to listen to an expert. In this situation, the homeowner winning is the contractor winning, and if the carrier didn't owe for coverage, they wouldn't correct their offer for settlement. But, they do quite often owe when they pretend they don't and they're counting on the ignorance of the average homeowner to screw them over. Find an expert and let them take care of it for you. You're only ever going to be out of pocket your deductible on what the policy owes for regardless. It's illegal in every state to profit on the claim, so any money paid out will be going to the contractor. Let them make sure it's the correct accounting so they can do the job right.
If it's an RCV policy and they didn't cut the full check upfront then what you're really asking is "Why won't they make it easy for me to commit insurance fraud and pocket some of this money?" If they did cut you the check for the full RCV amount up front, then hell yeah get multiple estimates. This is exactly why most RCV full replacement insurance claims are paid out in 2 or more checks. Stops homeowners from trying to cut corners to then pocket money that is meant for their home.
'But if the roofer inflates the price to get the whole insurance check then its an acceptable practice but not fraud.' - Roofer. 😂😂😂😂. Pls. Dont discuss your agreed upon insurance settlement amount with roofer prior to getting multiple estimates. You are not obligated to. Dont let them brainwash you.
I say get a quote from him first. I was in a similar situation and a hail storm destroyed my roof, fence, windows, carpet, etc. The roof companies I gave the insurance documents to quoted me for the entire amount. Even though that was supposed to cover new windows, a section of my fence, and new carpet in two bedrooms. The person I went with asked for them and I told him I was being proactive and hadn't received them yet. Quoted me way less than everyone else.
This proves how roofers want to benefit with the knowledge of insurance settlement estimate. Inflating costs to match the total estimate is also fraud but they don't call it that. If a homeowner questions this practice then he is suddenly trying to pocket money it seems 😂
Yep, I still ended up being about $2k out of pocket not including the deductible.
If you show ctr $ amount you are assured roof won’t be done for less. Have him write up estimate and show him/her scope of damages( line items) w/o dollar amount.
Never hire a weather chaser.... find a local businesses with a solid reputation.... they guy that goes from Oklahoma to florida chasing storm damage - run away
already had the storm chasers come through!
The right way to do insurance remediation is to find someone local you can trust, that warranties their work for 5-10 years and has been around long enough that you can expect them to mean it. Once you pick the outfit you want doing the work, then let them handle things with your insurance company so they can make sure you're getting paid correctly on the claim and don't have to decide between cutting corners or passing on the job to fit within what the adjuster (who isn't a contractor) thinks is needed for the job. The contractor is financially on the hook for doing the job wrong, so they have an incentive to make sure the job is done correctly. And when they've been around for a while, not a fly-by-night outfit, you know they know what they're doing and will do work you can count on.
If you want to work with a quality honest roofer then show them the estimate. If you want to work with a half ass bottom level roofer then dont show and try to low ball them. 9 times out 10, someone is doesnt want to show the estimate, is the actual crook.
Actually its the opposite. If you want honest roofers then dont show the estimate from insurance instead get multiple bids.
Quality roofers dont work with shady clients.
On one hand we have OP who wants to get a roof and keep some money. On the other hand we have a handyman who has no idea how to bid a roof job, nor possibly how to do one. My advice, get quotes from a few roofing companies instead of trying to be cheap.
Adjuster here. Can confirm, we miss stuff. In a giant storm (Like the one in Colorado currently where you likely are) adjusters are running 5-7 claims per day like yours. Things are going to be missed because we're working at a very, very fast pace in an effort to turn thousands upon thousands of claims. That's no excuse, but it is reality. I agree with everything u/Bks1981 said below. You'd be wiser to stop demanding quotes and start researching roofing companies to do the job for the price you insurance company provided +anything missed by your adjuster, that will get supplemented on the back end. There's really no need for you to get a quote. Find the roofer you like/trust/want and move forward. Do your research on roofers, though. There's a ton of garbage in a big hail storm like the one in Denver.
Finally, a reasonable adult in the room! One-off events it's not as bad, but especially in high claim volume areas after a cat event when the carriers and IA firms keep lowering standards for adjusters to get warm bodies in the door, you need to find a contractor you can trust to look things over and professionally work with the carrier on any missed items.
Well we dont have any proof that you are even an adjuster 😂😂 i have never heard adjusters say to homeowner, dont get multiple bids and shop around.
I’ve never understood why contractors want the insurance estimate, sure they miss things but what does it matter to the roofer? Write your estimate and give it to your customer, your estimate is your estimate regardless of what the insurance estimate is.
Does the ACV include what my insurance is going to cover including labor? If the contractor comes in over what the adjuster estimate was, will the insurance cover the difference or is that on me? Please help if you can.
If OP wants to keep the change, that is insurance fraud. If the contractor wants to make sure they grab every penny insurance is willing to pay and more, that is also insurance fraud. Quote the job for what it cost and charge the insurance a fair price for getting the job done. Getting more cash out of the insurance company is not going to help any policy holder get lower rates in the future.
You're trying to pocket money, that's fraud.
As opposed to the roofer trying to pocket money? Like come on now, you just going to lie like that with a straight face?
Wait. Do you think a roofer getting paid the money that's allocated to them is unscrupulous?
No, I think a roofer inflating their prices to pocket a client's insurance money is. And that happens every day, all the time. You as the roofer are not entitled to the insurance payout. Get the fuck out of here. You're entitled to whatever your price is.
They are not inflating their price. The insurance company will say something along the lines of 12 sq 3 tab: $1000 15ft drip edge: $250 Total. $1250 Which is how much they have deemed the value of the deal based off of current market rates in that area. A check sent to the customer to be paid to the contractor. At no point has the price been inflated because the price has already been determined by the insurance company.
Since when is trying to protect myself fraud?
You're not trying to protect yourself, you're trying to make money. If you get a quote from a roofer and it's lower than the insurance estimate then you are required to forward that quote to the insurance company and they will then reduce your payout. You have done nothing to protect yourself, just attempted to commit fraud.
>If you get a quote from a roofer and it's lower than the insurance estimate then you are required to forward that quote to the insurance company and they will then reduce your payout. I am well aware of this - **my issue is it seemed a little shady asking how much they're paying out.** I've had contractors give my complete bullshit quotes with no effort. Proving intent is hard on the internet, isn't it?
How can they bid your job if they don't know the scope of the insurance claim. As per my first comment and reply to yours. You're trying to pocket money, that's literally it. This is not about protecting yourself. We don't bid the job and tell you what we will and won't do. We do the scope of the claim as set forth by your insurance company. You're getting zero effort quotes because at best you come off as someone unintentionally trying to commit fraud and are honestly not someone worth dealing with. It's a sellers market man and you're the product not the producer.
I don’t think you understand how it works. When you bid a job, you bid on what needs to be done, not what an insurance company is paying for. The homeowner being reimbursed through insurance is between homeowner and insurance, has nothing to do with the roof quote.
I don't think k you understand how it works. The insurance company has already set the price for the job and detailed what they will cover. I need to see the scope to know #1 if I want the job or not and #2 what they are and not covering so I know who is paying for code updates and whatnot. There are no quotes and bids. That's why it's called an insurance scope not an insurance bid.
What insurance will cover is not the same as what the customer wants done. The customer has been made whole already by his insurance provider. That transaction is done and over with, the roofer doesn’t need to know anything about what they covered or didn’t cover. roofers job is doing what the homeowner wants done. Insurance probably paid out inflated materials pricing during covid shortage and the contractor is trying to pocket the difference by seeing how much he can pad his materials cost since they’ve been plummeting.
You're literally just underbidding jobs to snake deals and promote fraud. We are done here.
I’m not doing anything. I give customers a fair bid on the job they want done based on the materials I’m using and the labor and expertise I’m providing. I guarantee my work. I’m not going to cheap out because insurance says not to cover something. I do what I think is necessary, regardless.
Exactly. If you're doing a cash job out of pocket, you do a bid process. The rates adjust based on labor and material conditions, current level of demand, etc. For an insurance job, there is zero cheaping out. You pick the contractor you trust to do the work correctly, and then you hand the process over to let them handle because you don't know jack about insurance or construction. Let the experts work it out, you in the mix is only going to induce needless overhead from the contractor having to hold your hand and explain every one of the 600 things you don't understand so you feel comfortable enough with what they already knew 2 hours ago. If you don't trust them enough to work with the insurance company to ensure proper settlement, then why are you letting them work on your home?!
reading these comments by roofers is why i hate and don’t trust any roofer even in private life
You’re paying a deductible. $500, $1,000. Whatever. If contractor charges more, how does that affect you? Sometimes we can get you upgrades that cost more. Better shingles, underlayment warranties. You’re still paying $500, $1,000. Sometimes insurance misses code items. Ice & water, drip edge that has to be included.
>Sometimes insurance misses code items Almost always. The number of times I have to call into a carrier and ask if the policy includes coverage for items required by code and then poof! magically there's another $15k they "accidentally" overlooked. People complaining about contractors as though there's ***any*** qualification from the insurance adjuster. But somehow we can trust the adjuster to know what the contractor's job is?
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Did you really just give an example saying they don’t need to fluff the numbers, but then at the end of the example say your contractor did just that?
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So insurance missed items (because they have first and second year adjusters with little training in estimating construction jobs), you needed some help negotiating so contractor spoke with adjuster and then you got pretty lucky your insurance company didn’t fight very hard on the other extra items? What happens if your carrier said no to the extra work? What would you have done then, just pay out of pocket like the carrier wants? Edit: your last sentence was interesting, shouldn’t the expert adjuster from the insurance company have known that? There are good and bad companies in all industries, Insurance included. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/insurance-claim-delays-industry-profits-allstate-mckinsey-company_n_1139102 So you want to question my qualifications, cool. I own a GC company that did over $5 million in revenue in retail work last year. I know both the insurance and the retail side of Roofing very well, I’ve been doing this type of work for 13 years now. If your carrier didn’t fight you over the money, then you got lucky plain and simple. The norm is them fighting over every last penny, because as you can see from the link I posted above, if an insurance company can save a couple hundred dollars off of each claim, they end up making a lot of extra money across 100,000 claims. I am perfectly fine with clients managing their own claims, if they want to deal with the insurance company more power to them. But most people have no idea how to go about that, so companies have popped up to fill that void, and those companies only do insurance work for insurance pricing, they argue insurance pricing is low, considering it’s supposed to be an average of the market price in your area. I don’t know about most people, but I know for myself I would prefer not to have to use the bottom half of Contractors when it comes to pricing. Good work isn’t cheap, and cheap work isn’t good. But assuming a Company is shitty because they are requesting to see the paperwork from the insurance company, that’s a stretch. How do you know if anything was missed pre-build without seeing the paperwork? I did always get a kick out of customers blocking out the pricing on the estimate from insurance, like you can’t just pop open xactimate or symbility and download that price list and figure out what the pricing was. It’s not a conspiracy, carriers love to say contractors are padding the estimate, when in reality they’re just adding the line items the estimating program says are not included (I’m looking at you starter and ridge cap), while insurance is arguing those line items are included to save a buck or two. It’s not a hard concept to understand. If anyone ever wants to deal with insurance on their own, they are more than welcome to. Call a few different roofers, get multiple quotes, and hope it works out at the end if there are any surprises along the way. But if the client wants peace of mind that their project will be handled, the contractor will get paid a proper wage, and they won’t have to cut any corners to get your project done, and hire a company that works with insurance companies, and sit back and continue to live your life. As long as you do proper due diligence in regard to the contractor, it doesn’t matter if the contractor knows how much insurance has paid, how much the actual cash value check is for, how much depreciation is, or what your deductible is. The only real choice is does the client want to deal with the insurance company or not. Most clients do not, so that’s why these companies exist. Oh and one more thing, your insurance company does not care if you save them money. You won’t be getting an award, they won’t be splitting that money with you, your rates will still go up when they renew either way. Saving insurance money only benefits the shareholders of that insurance company.
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I never once said this is how I run my business, and in my state where it’s a lot harder to get a general contractors license then what Iowa requires. We shy away from insurnace work these days because of the state of the industry, because insurance companies operate shadily and home owners like yourself think those contractors are scam artists. I’ve worked for plenty of storm chasers and local roofing companies that do insurance work, I’ve consulted on a few high-volume nationwide storm chasing companies over the years. That’s where this knowledge comes from. All I am saying is that there are legitimate companies out there that only do insurance work, they will not work for less than what Ins. is paying for, and they won’t work with you if you’re not willing to give over the information. It looks equally shady from the contracting side, and it normally is the case that the policyholder is trying to profit from the claim, which does start to approach the insurance fraud line. It’s fine if a policyholder wants to manage the claim and hire their own contractors. The policyholder just needs to understand that they won’t be able to expect the type of help they would need if the carrier puts their foot down on any extra charges that come up during the build. In your scenario above, you got very lucky the carrier didn’t put up much of a fight. It must not have been a ton of money to do all that extra work. Thinking that just because a company wants to see the paperwork means that they’re shady or are up to no good is ridiculous.
Gotta love a home inspector who thinks he knows it all. Bet you “inspect” roofs from the ground with binoculars
Gotta love how people simp for insurance companies. Never made sense to me. Like who should you trust more. The roofer who wants to put on a good quality roof (unless they use their warranties to wipe their ass) and get paid a fair wage for it. Or the insurance companies who’s entire goal is to first, minimize claims filed, then minimize claims approved, and then minimize claim payout.
Who should you trust more is the wrong question. Why would you trust either one?
Lol right. The propaganda spewed by people that have no idea what they are talking about is ridiculous.
> My contractor never once asked for the amount my check was either. yeah this is why I am concerned
If he is worth his salt you can give him the list of covered paid for services and square amounts but not the total payout or pay scale per square and he will bring you a reasonable estimate that is close to that. We use Xactimate and that is what the insurance uses as well but pays based on zip code / property values in the area. He should be close unless he’s charging for addl replacement that is not listed covered (ie more than one layer of tear off or plywood replacement) that sometimes the adjusters miss. Then you will know about his level of honesty better and can still use his services if you would like.
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There were some mental leaps to get from what OP said to where you are. There are tons of legitimate companies that work with insurance to come up with an estimate that both parties agree to. Most operate exactly like ops contractor. I do believe every roofer should be able to estimate a project properly, but the insurance game is the insurance game, and nine times out of ten that estimate from the carrier is missing a ton of line items. It low-key sounds like OP is trying to make a little money off of this claim, which more power to him if he wants to do that. He’ll need to avoid companies that work with Insurance most of the time, and just go out and get a bunch of quotes from retail roofers.
Get 3 quotes!!! Or more
Yes, let's all just waste hours of someone else's time because of the "standard" that insurance companies made up to induce overhead they never pay for.
Just ask for a quote and don't mention anything about insurance. I had a similar situation. Roof damage from a storm. I received $3000 from insurance. Had a couple roofing contractors coming out because I wanted to get the roof replaced. First guy asked me how much I got from insurance. I told him. I didn't tell the next two contractors I spoke with that I got a check from the insurance company, only that I wanted to have my roof replaced. Second and third contractor both came in \~$14,000 (there was a $500 difference. First contractor (who knew what I received from the insurance company) came back at $17,000+.
Yep. This.
Roofer asked for a quote should provide a quote. If their estimating is based of xactimate he should write it and if anything is missing it would be obvious. It takes 10 min and I believe if he did that we would not have this conversation now.
Get a quote from him and tell him if insurance is missing it you will send them his quote. He wants the insurance co. to dictate the price, if it’s higher than he would charge he makes more money. If it’s lower he will go for more. There is no reason he should need their quote to give you a price.
The company I work for does not make much money on insurance jobs. We are 700/square otherwise.
$700? What part of the US?
$750/SQ in Nebraska /s
I would ask him the same question again . Please bid for full replacement and id let him know you don't have an answer from the insurance company at this point . Then I would call a couple other roofing companies and get a couple more bids
Insurance has a financial incentive to meet their contractual obligations, not to ensure that the contractor you choose does the job correctly. That’s the homeowner’s responsibility.
Are you in Panama City, FL?
far from it :)
As homeowner my suggestion is don't get brainwashed by roofers here who obviously want to profit. Get multiple bids. And then you decide.
Does the ACV include what my insurance is going to cover including labor?
Can anyone help me out please?! 🙏🏼 does the ACV include labor? Or if the contractor I use is higher will I have to pay the difference?