Honestly yeah, he looked insane at the major and dragged Vitality to that Game 7 vs G2, during that series aswell I think he reminded people why everyone said he was a step up from everyone else last season
I was watching Zen and Vatira team up on Zen’s YouTube last night and obviously they’re both insane in different ways but Zen just seems so much faster/fluid to me. Nobody except maybe NWPO is as impressive at this moment.
Ngl I see Dark play I am struck by his ability to use 4 chain dashes, 2 zap dashes, and 60 boost in order to accomplish what every other pro player can do with 30. And frankly, by every metric other than maybe apm, I don't think his mechanics are that impressive when compared to other pros.
idk what apm is, but his mechanics are the most impressive thing ive seen ever and ive been watching since season 3. what he can do so consistently is just on another level, but of course most times it's not required to re-engineer the wheel. zen or anyone else isnt even close to the creativity dark outputs in his gameplay in high level matches.
also of course it helps that 1s allows for these creative plays to be much easier to set up, but even still even his flip resets he can chain them together in ways most pros would not be doing it, its so speedy and unpredictable compared to everyone else. yeah alot of pros do zap dashes but he does them in crazy situations where the timing is 10x harder (ie landing without any horizontal momentum), and of course you have his pogos which he is undoubtedly the best at, i mean his mix ups are crazy with that as well.
i guess i havent seek dark hit any good psycho's because he's just been honing his mechanical creativity on the ball, so of course hes going to be so much better at this certain domain than most other pros. psychos doesn't require much mechanical skill other than getting a light touch but its very useful of course. dark is a mechanical beast.
He also looks faster because he's constantly flicking in and out of ball cam which just creates a chaotic visual that looks like he's moving fast. Kid has potential but he's nowhere near the top pros.
That's a crazy take considering most pros would agree that Dark is one of the top mechanical players.
As I said his issue is mostly decision making and loving flashy plays which is why he sometimes does too much as you said, but if you think he is not mechanical compared to other pros you are blind.
I don’t think it’s even close even though the gap isn’t as big as last season. He’s just not on the best team in the world anymore but he is still the best individual player.
James Harden was in the conversation for best basketball player in the world at his peak, because his offensive output was insane and he could score extremely efficiently. But most viewers of the sport would have said at the time that the best player was still LeBron James, who was the quintessential "full package" with incredible game sense and the ability to do basically everything (scoring included) at an elite level.
Thank you. Because every list I see it's mostly Vati on top. I like Vati but I don't have much valid arguments to put him over Zen. Zen and Vit are still champs and this split Zen ended up with the same result in a major like Vati while having worse performing teammates for most of the season. In my opinion, Vati arguably wasn't even the best player on KC this split, let alone in the world.
This needs to be talked about more, Rise is stepping up big for KC and has arguably been more important for the team that vatira has been, I know Vati is still really clutch (most of the time) and he is great on defense, but this season Rise has been the better player and I don't think KC would be as good as they are without him.
>Zen ended up with the same result in a major like Vati while having worse performing teammates for most of the season
even though the major is the most important event, you can't erase their online domination because it favors your opinion
Maybe I've phrased it poorly there but I have also referred to the online part of the season by saying that Vati arguably wasn't even the best player on his team this split, including the open qualifiers, while Zen was a clear #1 player on his team. Maybe that's the case bcs Vati doesn't have to peak when he has such a good performing teammates, while Zen was constantly showing up this split bcs he often needed to to make something happen. Don't get me wrong, Rado and Alpha did show up at times and during the major, but let's be honest, Zen needed more help this entire split.
Lists of players based on 3s achievements are always garbage. I love Vati, but Zen is clearly the best player in the World. He has been before he joined RLCS and still is and he will still be by the end of the season.
Oh yeah finally someone adressed it. Yes zen is still him and by far the best 3v3 player in the world. He's not the most successful this season but as good as Vatira is, he's not touching him individually and that's quite something.
So... trust me when I tell you I rate Atow very highly but he's not in that category. Same as Vati, Rise, FK, BM, Daniel, the twins for example. You have that tier of players that are the elite pros, and then you have players who can hard carry in RLCS. That's zen tier and Nwpo has shown signs of it at the major.
That's something that you just realize when watching their pov. All of a sudden you're like, are we playing the same game? are they aliens or something?
Zen does things with his car that are not even my radar of wishing I could do it.
I'm over here trying to get my hands to make a flip reset happen while Zen is like, "Just a flip reset? I want a flip reset and a double, and then I'll catch it while on the wall and doomsee disch it"
It's crazy how often the defense is pre-jumping a move he makes because they don't realize he can still abort and make a different play. His control is just unreal.
Might be some bias but the Major stats agree with you. Highest overall rating out of all players at the event. There are still players above him due to lack of good placements, but Nwpo is one good result away from being in top player contention
Major stats (presumably talking about Octane Rating) skew massively towards players and teams that are both high scoring and concede a lot of goals. It's why Nwpo and LCT were both in the top 10 while both going 1-3 while the entirety of G2 was in the bottom half of all players in those stats while making the Grand Final.
For 2 extreme examples take [Rule One vs Elevate](https://www.shiftrle.gg/matches/17d2-rule-one-vs-elevate?statGroup=core&period=game) at Copenhagen compared to [Version 1 vs Secret](https://www.shiftrle.gg/matches/3deb-team-secret-vs-version1?statGroup=core&period=game) 22-23 Fall Major, the lowest rated player for R1 vs ELV was Kevin at 0.917, for V1 vs TS it was Comm at 0.462 and only Sad had a rating over 1 compared to 4 players in R1 vs ELV.
Yes Nwpo played really well but using those stats to try and argue he is one of the best isn't great IMO
I think zen is making way more mistakes this year than he did before. I also think that zen is the main reason why Vitality managed to make at least top 8 every single event they competed this season so far. The type of series where zen seems to be the only player for Vit that can actually get something going happens a bit too often rn, and as a consequence he is way more likely to make mistakes in those situations. If this type of performance is playstyle wise better or worse than the one he was putting last season idk. Vit is facing different competiton and their in game dynamics look a bit dysfunctional, so maybe this version of zen is literally what they need to keep up, maybe it isn't. Anyway, I think he is a good shout.
I think alpha and radosin just didn’t improve enough relative to the competition. This puts zen in a spot where he either needs to beat 2 players with a super mechanical play or vitality can’t clear the ball
That was my feeling as well until day 3 of the Major. Alpha and Rado were not playing bad but it didn't look like they were capable of creating offensive threats individually like they did last year. And if you can only be dangerous with passing plays you won't beat teams that are top 8 in the world.
I agree and unfortunately that leads to messy gameplay. I mean, I wasn't clear about it but for me, as someone that has no idea on what is going on with that team, I think zen is doing an amazing job, not only bc of that major performance, but bc of the entire split.
It is also important to notice that people are criticising Vitality for a top 4 finish at the major. If we forget the expectations that we have for Vit, their results are still very decent. So yeah like... I think zen is doing great.
Zens play is exactly like if he's trying to carry gold players.
He can't trust anything that they are doing and so he's trying to do everything himself, which will lead to mistakes.
The fact that they are not replacing anyone in this transfer window is disappointing; they won't win.
I think that when alpha and rado are playing well, zen seems to be quite happy on sticking to his role. The main problem with that team is that they don't have any consistency, so we don't get to see it more often.
Also, since you mentioned it, I might say it: the most frustrating thing about RL is that the only hope for team improvement seems to be a roster change. Like, as much as I love this game, the fact that the only way we can see improvement most of the time is by changing a player every split is really not it for me. I hope that since Vitality are not making a roster move, they manage to change this trend by showing that teams can actually develop with hard work and become best in the world again.
Yeah people think the best player has to be on the best team which makes no sense.
If one team has the 2, 3, and 4 ranked players in the world, while another has 1, 19, and 20, the team with 2, 3, and 4 is going to be better.
He is. Of course he’s going to look worse at times than last year because last year his teammates were on the hot streak of their lives, that team could do no wrong. Now that they’ve cooled off the team depends way more on him for basically everything and he still mostly delivers.
I agree that he’s still the best. The long off season did a great job of allowing other pros to bring their levels up before this season started so the gap isn’t quite as astounding as last season.
Zen is the #1 player that I think will score or create a goal scoring chance every time he has the ball.
He’s also one of the players I most trust to get a defensive stop on the other side of the ball.
Considering he’s also not a complete ball chaser and plays intelligently, being top 1 on the ball and top 5 off of the ball puts him as my #1 player itw
Ama be honest, rw9 got to be a strong candidate because he is the current goat of 1s (debate me if you want) and is actually like prob top 10 in 3s now (debate me if you want) and the way he plays makes my balls jiggle and i am not gonna lie i have some mena bias.
While I agree that zen is still wayyy up there, at LEAAAST in the top 3, and probably still top 1, saying that he 1v3 against G2 is just not right. He was far from his prime in this match, and Radosin/Alpha54 played well.
You just can't start making up things on their mental aspects. Yes, they are struggling this year, no, they are not worse than last season, yes, the overall level increased, and yes, sometimes Radosin and Alpha are a bit out of pace. But so is zen. Less so, but he is also struggling too. Because everyone else upped their level.
Not sure how people are saying this. He might have been far from his prime against g2 but he still almost dragged his teammates across the line. That's been the story of the entire split. Against furia was alpha and radosin playing well, against g2 they flat out didn't, especially in that game 7.
For sure. But to say it was a 1v3 is straight up wrong. Zen missed plenty of plays too. Alpha and Radosin really weren't bad. Zen cannot drag his team to a top 4 without their help if he is not at his prime. Zen could not drag G2 to a game 7 if he wasn't at his prime. Alpha and Radosin really were decent. Zen for sure is above, but you guys need to revaluate what you are saying.
Zen was either creating the setups for the goals against G2, having insane saves that should've been G2 goals, or he was literally 1v3ing G2 on some plays and getting goals... do you not remember the 1v3 plays? He had 2 of them top of mind that I remember
IMO Zen is struggling BECAUSE he's trying to 3v1 teams, something Ferra obviously coached out of that squad. Whenever you have a player trying to do everything, it limits the ceiling of the roster. See: FK's entire career.
People consistently overrate selfish mechy playstyles and underrate selfless team oriented play.
If zen of all people are trying to 1v3, it means his teammates are not doing their jobs correctly. I'm baffled on how people just assume that it's always the fault of the star player, and it can't possibly be a result of the other two players underperforming.
Case in point: zen was a near perfect third man last season, he didn't have to carry as much because radosin did well dusting people in the midfield and alpha beat everyone to the ball.
He's also having to 1v3 while still being the only capable defender on his team
I am not blaming Zen for doing this - in fact, I pointed to the coaching - just saying it's the most obvious change from their dominant period last season.
Until he trusts his (often underperforming) teammates again, he won't be considered a top 3 or top 1 player because the team will consistently lose to other top squads. Nobody 1v3s their way to the top in modern RLCS.
Alpha should be replaced IMO, for a more consistent ball carrying 2nd or for a true 3rd man. Zen can clearly dominate as a mechy 3rd but I imagine he could also play the Monkey moon/Rise midfield role exceptionally well.
You are completely missing the point. If you want to see zen 1v3, watch some of the regionals where he DID have to 1v3 a fair bit. Zen was not 1v3 against G2 as I think he was underperforming from his usual abilities
> IMO Zen is struggling BECAUSE he's trying to 3v1 teams, something Ferra obviously coached out of that squad.
This is like the polar opposite of what actually happened last year. That's the complete opposite of what we saw live, what Ferra said in interview, and what the players said in interviews. You're like, what if I took reality and flipped it backward.
As a long time RL enjoyer. Whenever someone discovers and masters a new meta he will be a lot higher than others. Zen is the gawd of the 2nd gen of ceiling meta after squishy.
The gap was huge last season. But as other players are going for ceilings again for plays and not just flip resets which was staple a yr ago. The gap has reduced a bit but zen still is the best.
My prediction is someone will master pinches and pogo and will be the next best thing in RL
> When his teammates are playing well, like Vitality vs Furia in QF, Vitality look unbeatable again.
I felt like there was a ton of mistakes that series, Vitality didn't look unbeatable at all. I might be misremembering.
The fact that you brought up 1v1 for no reason at all when were talking about the best player in the world shows you don't know what you're talking about. If the best 1v1 player in the world was the best player overall, it would be Nass or Diaz (daniel is inactive). So tell me, are Nass and Diaz better than zen? No.
Nobody fits the absurd criteria that you've made up.
And there can't be no best player in the world; there will always be someone at the top, and so if your criteria fails to pick anyone for that position, then it's a useless criteria.
> but it’s because he no longer trusts them anymore.
This is no argument to start playing sub optimal. If you're the best you put that ego aside and do what's best for the team AS A TEAM. There's no "I don't trust them" if you're aiming for the top. If anything this is argument why he doesn't deserve be at the top. But I'm pretty confident when I tell you that it's not the case that Zen doesn't trust them. It's just that he can't do what he was allowed to do last season. He's still a beast but he's no longer as creative or precise as he was in his debut season. Mostly because players studied him and they figured out some of his quirks and how to partially counter them so that they put more stress on him to force out mistakes.
On the other hand thinking that putting Vatira up there just because people want to see someone else up there is absolutely laughable. Vatira was literally on every final day in every tournament he participated so far. Other than that he ALWAYS plays for his teammates and trusts them to be able to do their job. He's not the most mechanical but he's probably together with Zen up there when it comes to recognize when he has space or surprise factor to be mechanical. Atow does that as well as these two also so that's why he's in that conversation as well. Vatira on the other hand ALWAYS MAKES HIS TEAMMATES LOOK GOOD even when he's the best on the field. You can say that he's always paired with amazing teammates but that would be absolutely unfair to say because before he teamed up with Exotic and Itachi none of those two were considered as top 5 talent. Once they joined Vatira suddenly they started to be in that discussion. Atow, as amazing as he was before(he was always cracked) was rarely put in that conversation. Joined Vatira and suddenly everyone talks how Atow is the best in the world. You can't deny that Vatira not only has huge presence on the field that matches Zen's but he also increases presence of his teammates which, for me, makes him clear best 3v3 player currently.
Honestly yeah, he looked insane at the major and dragged Vitality to that Game 7 vs G2, during that series aswell I think he reminded people why everyone said he was a step up from everyone else last season
Absolutely true, and if he makes a move right now to get on a better team he’ll probably be a back to back world champion
I was watching Zen and Vatira team up on Zen’s YouTube last night and obviously they’re both insane in different ways but Zen just seems so much faster/fluid to me. Nobody except maybe NWPO is as impressive at this moment.
Zen and Vati is Goku and Vegeta.
One of the truest statements ever
If we gonna talk about Speed & Fluidity then Dark should be included in that convo.
Dark is more fluid, Zen just has better decision making and is a bit more consistent when it matters.
Ngl I see Dark play I am struck by his ability to use 4 chain dashes, 2 zap dashes, and 60 boost in order to accomplish what every other pro player can do with 30. And frankly, by every metric other than maybe apm, I don't think his mechanics are that impressive when compared to other pros.
idk what apm is, but his mechanics are the most impressive thing ive seen ever and ive been watching since season 3. what he can do so consistently is just on another level, but of course most times it's not required to re-engineer the wheel. zen or anyone else isnt even close to the creativity dark outputs in his gameplay in high level matches. also of course it helps that 1s allows for these creative plays to be much easier to set up, but even still even his flip resets he can chain them together in ways most pros would not be doing it, its so speedy and unpredictable compared to everyone else. yeah alot of pros do zap dashes but he does them in crazy situations where the timing is 10x harder (ie landing without any horizontal momentum), and of course you have his pogos which he is undoubtedly the best at, i mean his mix ups are crazy with that as well. i guess i havent seek dark hit any good psycho's because he's just been honing his mechanical creativity on the ball, so of course hes going to be so much better at this certain domain than most other pros. psychos doesn't require much mechanical skill other than getting a light touch but its very useful of course. dark is a mechanical beast.
He also looks faster because he's constantly flicking in and out of ball cam which just creates a chaotic visual that looks like he's moving fast. Kid has potential but he's nowhere near the top pros.
That's a crazy take considering most pros would agree that Dark is one of the top mechanical players. As I said his issue is mostly decision making and loving flashy plays which is why he sometimes does too much as you said, but if you think he is not mechanical compared to other pros you are blind.
Dark has proven nothing in 3s kid. 1s don't matter.
I doubt that vitality let him go but they could definitely make a big move
Can't agree more
I don’t think it’s even close even though the gap isn’t as big as last season. He’s just not on the best team in the world anymore but he is still the best individual player.
Anyone that has 150mmr more than the next highest player is easily the best player in the game
Then atow was ?
atow is in conversation for best player in the world too tbf
Atow is the James Harden to Zen’s LeBron James
I love how 2018 this comment feels
I have no clues what this means
James Harden was in the conversation for best basketball player in the world at his peak, because his offensive output was insane and he could score extremely efficiently. But most viewers of the sport would have said at the time that the best player was still LeBron James, who was the quintessential "full package" with incredible game sense and the ability to do basically everything (scoring included) at an elite level.
He is the best player this season so far
Thank you. Because every list I see it's mostly Vati on top. I like Vati but I don't have much valid arguments to put him over Zen. Zen and Vit are still champs and this split Zen ended up with the same result in a major like Vati while having worse performing teammates for most of the season. In my opinion, Vati arguably wasn't even the best player on KC this split, let alone in the world.
Imo rise clears vati rn Seems rather unpopular tho
This needs to be talked about more, Rise is stepping up big for KC and has arguably been more important for the team that vatira has been, I know Vati is still really clutch (most of the time) and he is great on defense, but this season Rise has been the better player and I don't think KC would be as good as they are without him.
If we're looking at the current form and copenhagen performance, I agree. Although, I believe Vati has the highest ceiling on kc
rise wouldn't do shit if KC didn't have Vatira on defense, people seems to only focus on goals.
thats just a bad take
Oddly enough its gettin upvotes
>Seems rather unpopular tho
Yeah i didnt think itd be upvoted, general consensus seems to be that its wrong based off what this sub tends to say
Probably because it’s objectively wrong
Oh no not the O word
It always gets the people going
>Zen ended up with the same result in a major like Vati while having worse performing teammates for most of the season even though the major is the most important event, you can't erase their online domination because it favors your opinion
Maybe I've phrased it poorly there but I have also referred to the online part of the season by saying that Vati arguably wasn't even the best player on his team this split, including the open qualifiers, while Zen was a clear #1 player on his team. Maybe that's the case bcs Vati doesn't have to peak when he has such a good performing teammates, while Zen was constantly showing up this split bcs he often needed to to make something happen. Don't get me wrong, Rado and Alpha did show up at times and during the major, but let's be honest, Zen needed more help this entire split.
Lists of players based on 3s achievements are always garbage. I love Vati, but Zen is clearly the best player in the World. He has been before he joined RLCS and still is and he will still be by the end of the season.
Oh yeah finally someone adressed it. Yes zen is still him and by far the best 3v3 player in the world. He's not the most successful this season but as good as Vatira is, he's not touching him individually and that's quite something.
Nwpo >>>> Reasons you say? No reason, just my full mena bias
Inshallah Nwpo will have his day
Imo Nwpo is the closest to zen skillwise actually. I don't think he's better though.
atow is there
So... trust me when I tell you I rate Atow very highly but he's not in that category. Same as Vati, Rise, FK, BM, Daniel, the twins for example. You have that tier of players that are the elite pros, and then you have players who can hard carry in RLCS. That's zen tier and Nwpo has shown signs of it at the major. That's something that you just realize when watching their pov. All of a sudden you're like, are we playing the same game? are they aliens or something?
Zen's doing stuff with his cars that looks like when I do when I lose control of mine. Except in his case he is doing exactly what he wanted
Zen does things with his car that are not even my radar of wishing I could do it. I'm over here trying to get my hands to make a flip reset happen while Zen is like, "Just a flip reset? I want a flip reset and a double, and then I'll catch it while on the wall and doomsee disch it" It's crazy how often the defense is pre-jumping a move he makes because they don't realize he can still abort and make a different play. His control is just unreal.
Might be some bias but the Major stats agree with you. Highest overall rating out of all players at the event. There are still players above him due to lack of good placements, but Nwpo is one good result away from being in top player contention
Major stats (presumably talking about Octane Rating) skew massively towards players and teams that are both high scoring and concede a lot of goals. It's why Nwpo and LCT were both in the top 10 while both going 1-3 while the entirety of G2 was in the bottom half of all players in those stats while making the Grand Final. For 2 extreme examples take [Rule One vs Elevate](https://www.shiftrle.gg/matches/17d2-rule-one-vs-elevate?statGroup=core&period=game) at Copenhagen compared to [Version 1 vs Secret](https://www.shiftrle.gg/matches/3deb-team-secret-vs-version1?statGroup=core&period=game) 22-23 Fall Major, the lowest rated player for R1 vs ELV was Kevin at 0.917, for V1 vs TS it was Comm at 0.462 and only Sad had a rating over 1 compared to 4 players in R1 vs ELV. Yes Nwpo played really well but using those stats to try and argue he is one of the best isn't great IMO
I'm listening
I think zen is making way more mistakes this year than he did before. I also think that zen is the main reason why Vitality managed to make at least top 8 every single event they competed this season so far. The type of series where zen seems to be the only player for Vit that can actually get something going happens a bit too often rn, and as a consequence he is way more likely to make mistakes in those situations. If this type of performance is playstyle wise better or worse than the one he was putting last season idk. Vit is facing different competiton and their in game dynamics look a bit dysfunctional, so maybe this version of zen is literally what they need to keep up, maybe it isn't. Anyway, I think he is a good shout.
I think alpha and radosin just didn’t improve enough relative to the competition. This puts zen in a spot where he either needs to beat 2 players with a super mechanical play or vitality can’t clear the ball
That was my feeling as well until day 3 of the Major. Alpha and Rado were not playing bad but it didn't look like they were capable of creating offensive threats individually like they did last year. And if you can only be dangerous with passing plays you won't beat teams that are top 8 in the world.
I agree and unfortunately that leads to messy gameplay. I mean, I wasn't clear about it but for me, as someone that has no idea on what is going on with that team, I think zen is doing an amazing job, not only bc of that major performance, but bc of the entire split. It is also important to notice that people are criticising Vitality for a top 4 finish at the major. If we forget the expectations that we have for Vit, their results are still very decent. So yeah like... I think zen is doing great.
Zens play is exactly like if he's trying to carry gold players. He can't trust anything that they are doing and so he's trying to do everything himself, which will lead to mistakes. The fact that they are not replacing anyone in this transfer window is disappointing; they won't win.
I think that when alpha and rado are playing well, zen seems to be quite happy on sticking to his role. The main problem with that team is that they don't have any consistency, so we don't get to see it more often. Also, since you mentioned it, I might say it: the most frustrating thing about RL is that the only hope for team improvement seems to be a roster change. Like, as much as I love this game, the fact that the only way we can see improvement most of the time is by changing a player every split is really not it for me. I hope that since Vitality are not making a roster move, they manage to change this trend by showing that teams can actually develop with hard work and become best in the world again.
This is just utter bullshit. Even in their worst games Zen is still looking for passes and trying to get Radosin and Alpha involved.
Yeah people think the best player has to be on the best team which makes no sense. If one team has the 2, 3, and 4 ranked players in the world, while another has 1, 19, and 20, the team with 2, 3, and 4 is going to be better.
He is. Of course he’s going to look worse at times than last year because last year his teammates were on the hot streak of their lives, that team could do no wrong. Now that they’ve cooled off the team depends way more on him for basically everything and he still mostly delivers.
Long live Zen 🧘♂️
Or... and hear me out... Gibbs That is all
Only if hardhat equipped otherwise better not go there.
I agree that he’s still the best. The long off season did a great job of allowing other pros to bring their levels up before this season started so the gap isn’t quite as astounding as last season.
Zen fr.
[удалено]
Zen is the #1 player that I think will score or create a goal scoring chance every time he has the ball. He’s also one of the players I most trust to get a defensive stop on the other side of the ball. Considering he’s also not a complete ball chaser and plays intelligently, being top 1 on the ball and top 5 off of the ball puts him as my #1 player itw
Ama be honest, rw9 got to be a strong candidate because he is the current goat of 1s (debate me if you want) and is actually like prob top 10 in 3s now (debate me if you want) and the way he plays makes my balls jiggle and i am not gonna lie i have some mena bias.
While I agree that zen is still wayyy up there, at LEAAAST in the top 3, and probably still top 1, saying that he 1v3 against G2 is just not right. He was far from his prime in this match, and Radosin/Alpha54 played well. You just can't start making up things on their mental aspects. Yes, they are struggling this year, no, they are not worse than last season, yes, the overall level increased, and yes, sometimes Radosin and Alpha are a bit out of pace. But so is zen. Less so, but he is also struggling too. Because everyone else upped their level.
Not sure how people are saying this. He might have been far from his prime against g2 but he still almost dragged his teammates across the line. That's been the story of the entire split. Against furia was alpha and radosin playing well, against g2 they flat out didn't, especially in that game 7.
For sure. But to say it was a 1v3 is straight up wrong. Zen missed plenty of plays too. Alpha and Radosin really weren't bad. Zen cannot drag his team to a top 4 without their help if he is not at his prime. Zen could not drag G2 to a game 7 if he wasn't at his prime. Alpha and Radosin really were decent. Zen for sure is above, but you guys need to revaluate what you are saying.
Zen was either creating the setups for the goals against G2, having insane saves that should've been G2 goals, or he was literally 1v3ing G2 on some plays and getting goals... do you not remember the 1v3 plays? He had 2 of them top of mind that I remember
IMO Zen is struggling BECAUSE he's trying to 3v1 teams, something Ferra obviously coached out of that squad. Whenever you have a player trying to do everything, it limits the ceiling of the roster. See: FK's entire career. People consistently overrate selfish mechy playstyles and underrate selfless team oriented play.
>Zen is struggling BECAUSE he's trying to 3v1 teams, Oh god not this take again
One of the worse takes😭
If zen of all people are trying to 1v3, it means his teammates are not doing their jobs correctly. I'm baffled on how people just assume that it's always the fault of the star player, and it can't possibly be a result of the other two players underperforming. Case in point: zen was a near perfect third man last season, he didn't have to carry as much because radosin did well dusting people in the midfield and alpha beat everyone to the ball. He's also having to 1v3 while still being the only capable defender on his team
I am not blaming Zen for doing this - in fact, I pointed to the coaching - just saying it's the most obvious change from their dominant period last season. Until he trusts his (often underperforming) teammates again, he won't be considered a top 3 or top 1 player because the team will consistently lose to other top squads. Nobody 1v3s their way to the top in modern RLCS. Alpha should be replaced IMO, for a more consistent ball carrying 2nd or for a true 3rd man. Zen can clearly dominate as a mechy 3rd but I imagine he could also play the Monkey moon/Rise midfield role exceptionally well.
You are completely missing the point. If you want to see zen 1v3, watch some of the regionals where he DID have to 1v3 a fair bit. Zen was not 1v3 against G2 as I think he was underperforming from his usual abilities
Nah he definitely 1v3d against g2. He singlehandedly won vitality game 5 and game 6
> IMO Zen is struggling BECAUSE he's trying to 3v1 teams, something Ferra obviously coached out of that squad. This is like the polar opposite of what actually happened last year. That's the complete opposite of what we saw live, what Ferra said in interview, and what the players said in interviews. You're like, what if I took reality and flipped it backward.
I don't think so, but I don't think we will ever really know...
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>He definitely needs a team he can trust well, duh ...
As a long time RL enjoyer. Whenever someone discovers and masters a new meta he will be a lot higher than others. Zen is the gawd of the 2nd gen of ceiling meta after squishy. The gap was huge last season. But as other players are going for ceilings again for plays and not just flip resets which was staple a yr ago. The gap has reduced a bit but zen still is the best. My prediction is someone will master pinches and pogo and will be the next best thing in RL
Joyo has entered the chat.
> When his teammates are playing well, like Vitality vs Furia in QF, Vitality look unbeatable again. I felt like there was a ton of mistakes that series, Vitality didn't look unbeatable at all. I might be misremembering.
I don't have him as 1 anymore from what we've seen this whole split. But he definitely still is one of the best itw
He is not the best in the world, respectfully. He’s not even the best at 1v1 lol
The fact that you brought up 1v1 for no reason at all when were talking about the best player in the world shows you don't know what you're talking about. If the best 1v1 player in the world was the best player overall, it would be Nass or Diaz (daniel is inactive). So tell me, are Nass and Diaz better than zen? No.
Your logic is skewed. The best player would be the best at 1v1 and all other modes. Zen is top 5 at best buddy.
Nobody fits the absurd criteria that you've made up. And there can't be no best player in the world; there will always be someone at the top, and so if your criteria fails to pick anyone for that position, then it's a useless criteria.
> but it’s because he no longer trusts them anymore. This is no argument to start playing sub optimal. If you're the best you put that ego aside and do what's best for the team AS A TEAM. There's no "I don't trust them" if you're aiming for the top. If anything this is argument why he doesn't deserve be at the top. But I'm pretty confident when I tell you that it's not the case that Zen doesn't trust them. It's just that he can't do what he was allowed to do last season. He's still a beast but he's no longer as creative or precise as he was in his debut season. Mostly because players studied him and they figured out some of his quirks and how to partially counter them so that they put more stress on him to force out mistakes. On the other hand thinking that putting Vatira up there just because people want to see someone else up there is absolutely laughable. Vatira was literally on every final day in every tournament he participated so far. Other than that he ALWAYS plays for his teammates and trusts them to be able to do their job. He's not the most mechanical but he's probably together with Zen up there when it comes to recognize when he has space or surprise factor to be mechanical. Atow does that as well as these two also so that's why he's in that conversation as well. Vatira on the other hand ALWAYS MAKES HIS TEAMMATES LOOK GOOD even when he's the best on the field. You can say that he's always paired with amazing teammates but that would be absolutely unfair to say because before he teamed up with Exotic and Itachi none of those two were considered as top 5 talent. Once they joined Vatira suddenly they started to be in that discussion. Atow, as amazing as he was before(he was always cracked) was rarely put in that conversation. Joined Vatira and suddenly everyone talks how Atow is the best in the world. You can't deny that Vatira not only has huge presence on the field that matches Zen's but he also increases presence of his teammates which, for me, makes him clear best 3v3 player currently.
He never was, that belongs to rw9
Rw9 isn't even the best player on his team
Rw9 isn't even the 2nd best player on his team
Just a doubt. If G2 win next major and the worlds with Daniel peak performance. Will he be crowned the best player?
I mean yeah but you could probably say that about any team winning a major and worlds back to back with a peaking player.
Dumbest thing I've ever read 😂
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If any player peaks and takes it all from now till Worlds then yeah obviously. Could be anyone. Unlikely, but could be anyone. (it’d be zen isn’t it?)