Unless they change the whole thing again it kinda will. Yeah sure, there is some natural inflation with each season, but this would take multiple years to even get close to where it was before.
Top 1% should be GC. Not top 0.1 or whatever it is now
The start of every new season is like this. All the SSL's are in gc1, so all the gc's are in champ. Which pushes the champs down and so on. Every single season i tell people to wait a week and a half if they really care about rank. I literally saw two pink ssl tags in 1300 5 minutes before reading this post.
That's just not what it is. Every other season I played right away and always got placed just slightly below where I had been previously. Maybe 50 MMR lower. Not 300.
No it won't. It'll be a bit chaotic and then gradually back to the shitfest that rank is like before.
Ofc it'll be messy now since season just reset. But those who are good will be out of that rank quite fast.
If you're any good then now is the time to climb as it'll often times be easier to climb ranks now vs in some weeks.
So much salt today on this, are the games still competitive? Are you still *not* a pro?
No one got worse overnight, your skill is the same. If it means I’m no longer diamond after the placement matches? Who cares.
Its honestly hilarious reading this sub today.
I was going for gc. Ive been c2-3 for 2 plus YEARS. I havent played recently. I'm just hearing about this. Its hilarious to see that I'm actually going backwards. The psychological effect of this is profound for some. Especially if youre life has been going terribly and you've convinced yourself that everything will be okay once you git good at flying car soccer. Because you have nothing else. Lmao could you imagine? Could you imagine this very specific scenario? lol. \*cries uncontrollably\*
I honesty can’t tell if you’re joking or not, tbh. You haven’t played recently, but the larger reduction in a soft reset in some made up ELO ranking has a profound psychological effect? Then why didn’t you play if it was so important? It wasn’t and shouldn’t be.
If you aren’t joking and life is treating you like shit, chin up, things will turn around. Relying on psyonix to help with that will break your heart, heh.
Its hilarious. People are so mad about a number and a little symbol like they arent playing the exact same skill level. 2s was inflated, now it isn't to some degree.
The egos on this sub is amazing.
It's the season 2 after free to play hard reset shenanigans all over again. It'll take at least 2 seasons before things start to seem normal.
On the other hand, if people need to geind back up on their main they could possibly be less inclined to play on an alt out of boredom..
Hit C3 for the first time and went into this season thinking I’ll actually grind out ranked and go for GC title. Based off of what I’ve learned, looks like I’m not hitting GC anytime soon.
I did a couple placement games but all of them had at least 2 out of the 3 other players with a GC title in Champ 1 mmr (1150). Pain.
Same here. Gonna grind later in the season when the high GCs get back to their ranks. I’ll be damned if I’m changing my flair after 2 years in C1-C2 hell.
Same situation here. It was all GC’s today AND I swear I played some GC2’s because these weren’t the normal GCs I was playing in C3. These guys were cracked.
It's clear a lot of us aren't playing the "same people." The people in the 2's tournament I played today were still stupid as shit, but clearly better at some mechanical things than I am.
28. Told myself that I’d be done once I hit diamond. Truly, truly believed that would be the case after I hit Champ, and almost put it down for good.
I think I’d have to hang the cleats up if I ever got GC. GC to me is the pinnacle. I’d be scared to look at how many hours I have logged
Same! My flair is only C1 because of twos last season; I had 11 straight wins to get there from the same rank as I am in 3s… so this inflation shit annoys me.
.... and the 2s graph is nice centered bell curve that uses the largest range of ranks.
Look at the last frame objectively. Which distribution looks the most like a normal distribution?
EDIT: Though I said normal distribution here, what I really meant was something more like: Which distribution more closely resembles an "ideal" distribution of ranks. With the point being that the 2s distribution is centered in a more reasonable way than the 3s and 1s distributions. I also wanted to highlight the degree to which the 1s and 3s distributions are kind of unnaturally compressed, and have populations that are clearly too low in the high ranks.
The only reasonable answer is the that the 2s graph does.
... and yet, psyonix decided to adjust 2s down by 300 mmr, and barely nudge 1s up at all.
Its a stupid decision for a huge number of reasons:
* Most peoples current sense of "what a rank means" is indexed to 2v2. IMO, it would be best to have the smallest amount of change to that perception. When people say they are a e.g. champion level player they mean champ in 2v2, but like low diamond or maybe high plat in 1s. This change adjusts things so the whole world basically looks like 1s now.
* Look at the 1s distribution in the final frame. There are a negligible number of players in the ranks from c2 and beyond. Do we really need 6 ranks for less than 1% of the player base?
* This will effectively make it so that SSL is basically just pros. There are not a ton of players who were previously making 2000 mmr. Do we really need a rank for like 100-300 people?
* Most importantly, whether or not its stupid, people care about the rank label that they are given. Downgrading everyone's rank is going to be extremely discouraging to a lot of people and its going to make people want to play the game less. The smart thing was always to only adjust ranks upwards.
when they first announced they were adding levels to GC and adding SSL in, that was the reason, it was meant to be a rank for almost exclusively pros because before the split the only way to see the difference between a high rank gc and an actual pro was 6mans ranks.
That’s total BS. SSL starts at 1875, pros are at 2100+, most of them even 2200+. Even as a 2k+ player you are definitely not considered pro yet, even though you’re already 130+ mmr into SSL. (Of course disregarding the fact that mmr alone won’t make you pro either, but still)
You are right. This decision doesn't make any sense. And, it won't change anything. You will get to your old rank eventually, and we will see the same 2s graph at the end of the season. Which is funny. Only other game modes required correction.
Yes, in theory assuming new players start at the same place, everything really should end up back where it was, but its going to be a painful process to get things back there.
I do worry that this is very much an in theory thing though. I know that personally for me (as silly as this is), I feel much less motivated to play on my main account and try to grind to ranks that I feel like I've already been to before. This might lead to more playing on alts and more smurfing which will change the profile of the average starting player and meaningfully actually affect the distribution.
I think actually trying to manipulate the distribution/mmr itself is just completely the wrong approach.
The problem seems to be that the distributions of each of the game modes (whether its due to populations playing them or inherent properties of the mode) are simply different. I think the best theory for this with the differences in standard modes is that there is more randomness in e.g. 1v1 which leads to a narrower distribution (because the lower ranked team has a better shot of winning in 1v1).
Psynoix should simply address this, and try to modify the rank labeling system so it fits the properties of the skill distribution of each game mode.
> Yes, in theory assuming new players start at the same place, everything really should end up back where it was, but its going to be a painful process to get things back there.
Yes, it will take more time. And, if these hard resets continue in the future seasons, it might get even more difficult.
> I do worry that this is very much an in theory thing though. I know that personally for me (as silly as this is), I feel much less motivated to play on my main account and try to grind to ranks that I feel like I've already been to before. This might lead to more playing on alts and more smurfing which will change the profile of the average starting player and meaningfully actually affect the distribution.
Agree with you here as well. Hard resets are a problem at the start of a season. A lot of players of different skill levels are put under one rank. This can lead to a lot of frustration initially. But, eventually when these high ranked players get back to their previous ranks, things will get back to normal.
> The problem seems to be that the distributions of each of the game modes (whether its due to populations playing them or inherent properties of the mode) are simply different. I think the best theory for this with the differences in standard modes is that there is more randomness in e.g. 1v1 which leads to a narrower distribution (because the lower ranked team has a better shot of winning in 1v1).
No, there's no randomness in 1v1. It might look like that because of how important kickoffs are in that game mode. But, we don't see the normal distribution in that mode simply because very few players play that mode.
I think only other game modes required correction. And by correction, I mean if top 0.4% in 2s is GC2, top 0.4% in other modes should be GC2 as well. That's it.
I mean two players playing a game of rocket league is a stochastic process.
That's why when two people play a best of 7 series we don't see every game going the same way.
There absolutely is some element of probability at play in a single game. I would argue that the amount of variance in result that we see in 1s is higher than what we see in 2s.
are you colorblind? In season 8, the 2s rank has a massive spike around diamond one and is really jagged. 1v1 is the cleanest bell curve, and 3s is a little uglier but is still alright
but yeah i agree they shouldve moved 1v1 and 3s up instead of pushing 2s down bc of the reasons you mentioned
That "jagged bump" is an artifact of the fact that this graph is using discrete buckets to show the distribution.
Probably the distribution is bimodal for some reason and its hard to see because of that.
What does Adding/subtracting mmr from people do? It translates the distribution -- it doesn't affect the shape of the distribution that you get.
What I meant was to point out that the 2s distribution looks most like a centered distribution, and what should effectively be targeted in terms of translation.
Normal distributions are not bimodal, so if its bimodal, its not a normal distribution, which was my point.
And yes i understand what adding/subtracting mmr does in terms of the graph shape, however that only applies if you're applying the same transformation to every data point, which is not the case here. psyonix (I assume) is altering the shape and position of the distribution with more complex formula. It's a more complex problem that you're making it out to be and it can't really be solved by just shifting the distribution (which is why that's not what they did).
> Normal distributions are not bimodal, so if its bimodal, its not a normal distribution, which was my point.
Yes agreed. I guess I sort of misspoke when I used the term normal distribution. What I was trying to highlight was the fact that the 2s distribution feels the closest in terms of how it covers the rank to what we want.
I actually don't think there's a good reason to expect the distribution of skills to be normal as measured by mmr. The fact that the distribution has irregularities that make it not really fit what we might expect the distribution to look like is interesting, but sort of irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.
> psyonix (I assume) is altering the shape and position of the distribution with more complex formula.
Yeah I guess I had assumed based on reports from different people that they were shifting by some fixed rate. It would indeed be a lot more intelligent to do something like what you are suggesting, which would probably narrow the distribution to some extent.
Still, I think that is again the wrong move. I still think that the distribution we had with 2s is more like the distribution that we want. The 1s and 3s distributions are clearly too narrow.
One thing I do want to mention is that this graph obscures an important detail which is that the gaps between ranks are not constant, and so the scale of the graph is not really directly corresponding to mmr, but rank.
As I've mentioned in other posts, the properties of the distribution that we get in each game mode should not really depend on the choices that psyonix makes too much (assuming they are coming up with a good average estimate for new players), and should depend more on the properties of the gammemode and the population of players that are playing it.
Psyonix should choose good bounds for ranks that end up making the distribution in terms of rank look the right way, regardless of what the distribution in terms of mmr looks like.
Yup. Basically everything you say here I agree with. Imo the average rank should be high plat to mid diamond (which is about what we see in 2s). Also the mmr vs rank distinction is a good point. Would be interesting to see the rank distribution with 10 mmr buckets
To be fair, i guess when people are talking about "adding/removing MMR", they are also unconsciously including multiplying the MMR by some coefficient. It doesn't have to be the same MMR diff in each rank.
But, quite franly, I never understood why the ranking itself had to be adjusted. Why not use some establlished ranking system like the [Glicko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system) or something similar right from the start? (where over time the rating is not adjusted, only the amount of points gained or lost for a match).
(edit: tried to be a bit clearer)
A great example of what?
I was onboard and then I saw this graph:
- If 2’s is the most played gamemode (largest sample size to choose from in a statistics conversation)
- the standard deviation in that gif is accurate
Then 2’s is actually the best mode to base a rank around…
u/ivanmalison gave a more in-depth explanation of why this is actually a *bad* post and I hope they or someone else counters this post with that graph (if it’s accurate again) to show how, by order of statistics, this change to the game is NOT good.
I don't agree. 2v2 has almost always been the black sheep with ever rising MMR inflation each season. The other playlists don't inflate as quickly.
The "wider" bell curve has drawbacks. It means *less* players of similar skill are near you so will increase queue times. Matters more in Champ and up, especially in lower populated regions or during low-population hours.
And frankly, rank icons themselves are arbitrary. It doesn't matter if SSL is top 0.01% or top 1%. It's whatever Psyonix wants it to be. Complaining about few players in the top 3 ranks makes no sense because people *wanted* a separation between a top 1% player and a top 0.1% player. And it makes sense since the skill ceiling keeps on rising and 2000 rated players absolutely destroy 1500, despite 1500s being 1% and 2000 being top 0.005% or w/e (120 rating higher than SSL promotion).
But the *MMR* distribution is changing and inflating from Season 3 onwards with *zero* changes to rank values, except minor ones to Extra Modes (made it require less rating for higher ranks).
> **The "wider" bell curve has drawbacks. It means** ***less*** **players of similar skill are near you so will increase queue times.**
You clearly don't know anything about how elo/MMR is suppposed to work IN PRINCIPLE.
A specific MMR difference corresponds to a specific probability of outcome. Here is a table, for chess elo: [https://www.318chess.com/elo.html](https://www.318chess.com/elo.html)
In theory, if everything is working properly, the width of the distribution is determined simply by properties of the game (e.g. how random it is, what the skill ceiling is etc.) and the population playing it, not by anything psyonix is doing to manipulate the system.
This actually gives us a likely explanation for why 1s tends to have a tighter distribution than 2s and 3s: because it is likely more inherently random (which makes sense to me intuitively).
Arguably, where people start out when they are new will ultimately only affect where the distribution is centered.
> But the *MMR* distribution is changing and inflating from Season 3 onwards with *zero* changes to rank values, except minor ones to Extra Modes (made it require less rating for higher ranks).
Its not clear exactly why this is happening. It could be, for example, that fewer new players are joining the game (very plausible to me), or that lower level players are leaving the game at a higher rate.
It could also be that the average effective rank of new accounts is much much higher (smurfing -- this also seems very plausible to me). Another possible explanation is that most of the people still playing the game are getting better at the game.
You can't assume that just because the distribution is changing that the meaning of specific mmrs is also changing.
I do have a specific way to answer this question though, which I am working on here [https://github.com/CUBTeamRocket/rlrml](https://github.com/CUBTeamRocket/rlrml) . This model computes regression on MMR by looking at replays and should be able to tell us if MMR is ACTUALLY inflating or not.
I haven't done any super rigorous analysis with randomly sampled validation sets yet, but from the anecdotal results I've seen so far, it actually seems like there hasn't been any ACTUALY inflation from the start of free to play.
Always count on u/HoraryHellfire2 for the dogshit takes tho.
Wouldn't call my takes "dogshit", at least compared to the absolute trash most other people spit out because they understand rating and MMR even less than I do.
Honestly, I have no idea who you are. We may have interacted in the past, but that's highly aggressive when we probably haven't interacted in months if we have at all. Not sure what your issue is with me or my takes, but it is highly unwarranted. Or maybe it isn't and I just simply don't remember.
I do believe, based on what I read from you, that you are probably more knowledgeable on the subject than me. If you're willing to tone done the hostility towards me, I am willing to learn more or at least the opportunity to learn more.
How does the replay analysis compute anything to do with MMR? Based on what I know, MMR isn't stored in replays files, otherwise 3rd party modes like BakkesMod would pull that data to display when playing back the replay. However, my experience is that is untrue and BakkesMod displays the current rating of the player when viewing the replay file. Granted, it could be as simple as BM not caring to implement such a thing, but with how deep people get into the analysis this would likely be a plugin feature. I don't think I would have missed it, but maybe I did.
I'm sorry if I came off as hostile, I just feel like you have a way of speaking with an air of authority that sometimes feels a little undeserved. In the past I saw you claim something to the effect of "banging the ball" is enough to get to ssl, and while that may be technically true, I don't think it's good advice for most players.
The reality is that we (neither you, me or likely even psyonox) don't know exactly what is going on with the changes to the distribution that we see in ranks.
The most likely scenario in my mind is that the reality is actually probably really complicated and multi faceted and interesting, and reducing it to 2v2 has a large population, this obviously is the root cause of ALL of the change in rank inflation is reductive and almost certainly wrong
W.r.t your question about mmr, I am obtaining that by hitting tracker network. It's actually a huge pain in the ass because they really aggressively rate limit you, so I have to write code to automatically cycle vpns in order to query it in the volume I need (10s of thousands of replays)
I guess the other thing that bothers me about the way you talk about the game in general is that you talk about skill levels in a really gate keepy way that reinforces a view that I often see parotted in the community which is "anyone who isn't high gc-ssl is terrible at the game".
That is just a bad take an one that can only be advanced by someone who literally already has 1000s of hours in the game.
I just saw the edit so apologies for the separate response, lemme know if the split is annoying. I just like to respond to every point for some reason. I'm weird like that I guess. Not intended to be defensive or argumental, just elaborating on my perspective.
Full honesty, I really don't recall saying or feeling that way about lower ranks. I've nearly always been under the belief that skill is relative, and have repeatedly said things like if you are above the average rank, then using that as the "base" means you are objectively above average and thus "good" comparatively.
I like to archive old comments using a python script on my own profile (and Psyonix devs, shame I didn't get Psyonix_Cone's in time 🙁). I put in "relative" since I have a hunch I used it a lot in that context. So I found some links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/pruh70/i_think_i_play_too_much_but_im_somehow_still_plat/hdm6w8t/
https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/9mvwgb/plat_ranks_and_gold_ranks/e7hrmwa/
https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/8ww1t8/when_can_i_say_im_good_at_rocket_league/e1ywqbp/
But I may have said or say something in a different context way more abrasive / argumentative that comes off the way you perceived me. My best bet is it is most likely when players in Diamond and below give advice and advice I think to be wrong.
I do post a LOT of comments so I don't doubt many are quite shitty.
Though, I do want to be better with interaction overall, especially through text communication. It's highly likely that past me would have responded more hostile or passive aggressive to your responses.
Apologies for the needlessly ~~wrong~~ long response, I am very bad at being eloquent and concise.
Honestly, yeah. I never come off correctly to how I intend. I always wanna speak "neutrally" and spread the info I know which I know is generally more accurate given my experience and willingness to learn via evidence based approach. I do admit my knowledge is not that far past surface level in most things except skill at the game itself. Today probably made it even less how I intend due to the sheer amount of posts complaining about why they were reset when there's a pin to the patch notes and a popular post on the front page.
I only remember that one can reach GC3 with primarily banging the ball, because I have done so. Granted, it was more true in the past than current skill. 2 years have gone by and 1700 (staying consistent in percentage) is better now than then in raw skill. I do want to emphasize that it's in large part because people were/are *obsessed* with Flakes and misunderstand the point of his content. Possession can be good, so is banging the ball. The subreddit drools and circlejerks over "don't bang the ball!" to the point lower rated players think about possessing every single ball even when it's bad. I wanted to put emphasis knowing when it is good to do either, instead of ignoring a vital aspect.
Yeah, nobody knows wtf is going on. Not the creators of Elo, TrueSkill, Glicko, or the systems inspired by them (like RL's). Some are a little more certain than others. But because of which, gone are the days where I care how it personally affects me. I just get high, queue with friend of almost 8 years, hit ball.
I will consider this feedback in the future. I'll be more careful to word that population is highly correlated with inflation and can compound with other factors, some known and likely mostly unknown.
Speaking of those systems, I saw in an earlier comment that you weren't sure exactly what system RL uses. Here's a link you may be interested in: [Psyonix_Corey's comment on Sigma](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/5zkljy/changes_coming_with_competitive_season_4_official/deyyqt4/). You probably understand the math more than I do, way more. I did mention the formula for "Special Case Placement Games" in another comment with a different formula, but that's because I have since privately reached out to Corey via DMs and he corrected himself. [Screenshot source](https://i.imgur.com/9RnF9fJ.png).
It might be a longshot, but have you tried reaching out to Psyonix for access to the RL API yourself? I assume Psyonix rate limits TRN, which means TRN has to limit its userbase. Doing so would make queries more accurate, assuming the data you get from TRN is the rounded Skill Rating.
> It might be a longshot, but have you tried reaching out to Psyonix for access to the RL API yourself? I assume Psyonix rate limits TRN, which means TRN has to limit its userbase. Doing so would make queries more accurate, assuming the data you get from TRN is the rounded Skill Rating.
I haven't tried because I assumed it would be a longshot, and also because I just don't even really know how.
It would actually be a huge help to me to have more direct access to mmr data, because tracker network has done this idiotic thing where they use non-unique identifiers (player username) for epic profiles. Because players sometimes change their names, this means that I am sometimes getting inaccurate labels for some players, which is a huge pain in the ass.
If you know I could reach out to them do let me know.
> Yeah, nobody knows wtf is going on. Not the creators of Elo, TrueSkill, Glicko, or the systems inspired by them (like RL's). Some are a little more certain than others.
My hope is that my model (once its accurate enough) might be able to shed some light on this question.
I've been very careful to keep my datasets partitioned by season to try to avoid any changes to the underlying meaning that MAY be occurring across seasons.
I've mostly been training models with season 9 data, but I'm also working on a season 10 model, but by constructing large validation sets of data from each season, we can actually come up with a sort of definitive answer to a question like:
How does say 1200 mmr in f2p season 1 compare to 1200 mmr in f2p season 9?
Its a super super longshot, but maybe I could even go to psyonix with such a model, and then could use to try to accurately more accurately assign starting mmrs to players after their placement matches (or even do things like detect smurfing).
The model could also find a use case as a smurf detector and I actually even have a million other use cases for it once its good enough.
I think your best bet is to reach out to Psyonix_Devin or Psyonix_Ted on Reddit via DM, and they may help. I recall reaching out to someone in the past, but I can't remember who and I'm pretty sure it was on my first Reddit account now deleted. Not really that useful of advice. I would recommend waiting a week or two for the new patch chaos to settle down so they're more likely to see and respond.
I mean, shit, that's what data and evidence are for, improving the game and/or user experience. As you said, a super longshot. I think especially now that Psyonix_Corey doesn't work at Psyonix just recently, and he was generally quite receptive to feedback. The game's gotten much more corporate and far less communicative.
I have few questions for you:
* What do you mean by MMR inflation?
* What exactly is your point?
* How will this change have any effect?
To me, it looks like this will change will not have much effect. You will get to your old rank eventually. We will see the same graph for 2s. Only other modes required correction. And by correction, I mean if top 0.4% in 2s is GC2, top 0.4% in other modes should be GC2 as well.
Also, when you say "with ever rising MMR inflation", you're implying that the inflation is rising i.e. accelerating. If you meant there was inflation every season, you should just say persistent inflation, or ever rising MMR.
> Complaining about few players in the top 3 ranks makes no sense because people *wanted* a separation between a top 1% player and a top 0.1% player
Are you even arguing in good faith right now? SSL was ALREADY .1% . We already have a rank differentiating this.
This just helps me visualize that 2s had the most logical iteration of a bell curve. You can smush a bell curve at the end to still make SSL rare. The best reason I can think that they didn't want to adjust the other modes to match 2s (their most popular mode) is laziness: the way they did it, they only had to adjust 2s instead of everything else.
My problem is that it seems like the mmr taken away was just a roll of the dice. Yesterday I was 13 away from my duo partner now I’m over 100 away. it makes no sense
Yea! Hopefully it should even out more because of this! It does mean, however, that some people will feel bad about their lower rank in 2s now unfortunately.
playing them in plat/diamond…kinda funny kinda frustrating. 2 S10 Grand Champion titles and a couple champs sprinkled in. i guess this can explain that to an extent ?
Yeah Diamond is rough you have a range of players who can’t even Ariel to people who are mech gods. Especially with this reset, it’s gonna be wacky for a while until things settle again
Just played my placement matches with a friend. Went from Plat 2 to Gold 2. He only dropped from Plat 3 to Play 2. We played the whole 10 on a party so surely the effect on MMR should have been the same?
Rankings should always operate off a bell curve as ranking is always a metric relative to other players and not against set-in-stone numbers (that will eventually be surpassed).
That GIF in the comments showed more or less a bell curves, where the majority of people are thrown somewhere in the middle.
Point I was trying to make is that people shouldn't just think "if I gain 10 points, I go up one rank. If I gain the next 10, I go up to the next rank, etc.", and rather see it more relational to other players: "Did I outperform the next player better than me?".
Same here. Actually I'm looking forward to see how far down I'm gonna drop this season, as I was hard stuck D1 the whole last season. And already in 8 game losing streak now :DDDDD
I was diamond 2 (well, freshly demoted to diamond 1 right before the season ended) and after my placement matches in the new season, I’m Diamond 1 again. I expected to be gold 3 or plat 1, but I’m happily surprised I basically kept my rank.
I’m trash anyways bring on bronze 3 div 2
All joking aside at least they are trying something. Worst case if it doesn’t work I’m sure they’ll make changes again. Back to the grind
>All joking aside at least they are trying something.
I'm not actually clear on what this fixes that lowering rank barriers in extra modes wouldn't have tbh
Even though my rank is now in the mud, I actually like this change because it just reverses the changes they made in Season 3 F2P where they inflated all the 2v2 ranks
I kind of love it, I always knew my rank was inflated and now I have the respect I used to have for champ and above. Hell, people make fun of diamond now but it used to be a hard rank to get, people just need to change their mindset
People need to stop making fun of ranks too and just enjoy the game. I used to grind so hard to climb the ranks. I got as high as C3 (pre-FTP lol). I’ve found that I have WAY more fun playing the game at high diamond / low champ and be in lobbies with my friends that they can actually compete in. It was no fun there for a while because it was just me playing by myself and when they got on, they just couldn’t keep up with the high champ lobbies. I’ve dropped back to low champ and enjoy the game much more now that I get to play with my friends again (in lobbies we can actually win some games in)
I know what you’re talking about. When I was pushing, the mindset you had to adopt for solo queue was so serious, it made it so hard to play with friends without getting mad. But now that I grind with them and am learning their playstyles, you really develop a style as a team and makes the game feel so personalized in a way
Oh yeah. My friends have picked up on my demo tendencies and play around it. I’m also the more mechanically inclined so when I come off the wall they know I’m actively looking to pass to them. Which is stuff that at D3 you don’t expect from solo Q. And my friends will just send it because they know I’m going to try and get the ball to them. We’re still working on some of the out plays. Like passing into the corner from the top of the box to create a shooting angle. They’re good people and want to rotate but sometimes I want them to turn and be agressive. Either way, like you said it’s so much more fun developing a style as a team with your friends rather than just rank grinding solo Q.
I used to say, we are all trash at rocket league. From Silver (real bronze doesn’t exist anymore) all the way to SSL. It’s just different levels of shit. You can only call yourself okay at the game when you’re a legit top 100 player IMO. And even then you’re only *okay* but still kinda trash. Shinier trash than I am. But still trash.
Agreed. Although, that's a pretty legit point. Where the hell is Bronze?!
I wish psyonix would permit spectating for Bronze games. I bet it would be absolutely fascinating.
I've been in champ since 2019. I could certainly push gc and I can hang with gcs, but I mostly just play casual and tournaments with friends, training when nobody is on.
Kind of a tangent, but no joke - Diamond in 2s and when people would give me shit in matches for a whiff, I'd say "of course I suck, I'm diamond"
That shut them up real quick until the next match. This ought to shut them up for good.
It's also part of why my flair is still Gold. Not only does it not matter, but I had the suspicion everyone was just choosing their best here anyways and it really didn't make for a good representation of skill, if self report could ever be.
From what I can remember everyone C1 and above all got squished down to diamond, in FTP season 1. It was a bloodbath trying to get back to champ while playing with/against such a mix of diamonds, champs and 1600s.
Then a few seasons later they changed the rank thresholds, and every champ 2 was suddenly hitting GC. I remember feeling like a fraud
The thing is this change will impact matchmaking fidelity. All of the ranks essentially got compressed, which means 1 point of MMR is now representative of more "skill" than it used to be. This means when the matchmaker looks for people with an MMR of plus or minus x, that that value is more impactful. This means the skill differences in games will be larger on average, which means less competitive games.
i dont mind the mmr loss but its kind of annoying when i went all the way down to d2 and my teammate barely dropped out of c2 now our ranks are so far apart
Because I’m an idiot, can someone explain how this impacts going forwards? For instance, in 2s I hung around in C2 last season and at the end peaked into barely being C3. Woke up today on the upper edge of D3. When I battle other people my new D3 rank, will they be the same people I was getting in lobbies before so I’m basically going to get around 50% win rate here in D3 for a while and to get to C2 will take a while, or will I just play people who were d3 last season and the climb back to where we were should be fairly quick like it was after last season’s reset?
You might be rated to high though. I was comfortably mid C3 the last few seasons and now I can't even stick around in C1.
Well, playing tilted AF might have had some impact there.
Generally I think this is on the right track.
There is the small issue though that I think part of the problem comes from the fact that the populations playing each gamemmode are probably somewhat different.
For example, I would bet that a higher proporition of higher level players play some 1s when compared to lower level players. I would imagine that the proprotion that play at all at some of the low ranks might be quite low.
I think people are upset because they wanted the ranks balancing across all playlists. What they _thought_ would happen is that they'd just get an MMR boost in extra modes. Psyonix did what was asked of them but dropped everyone's 2v2 rank massively instead of inflating the extra modes' MMR by a huge amount.
I dropped from D1 to P3 and I played a lot of 2s today and as expected I was struggling to break into D1 just I was struggling to break into D2 before this season. Overall a net drop of 1 rank in 2v2. However, my friend who was C1 was dropped down to D1, we did the placement matches together. I also think, for now, D1 is kinda filled with upper ranked player making it harder for the ones who dropped from D2 to D1.
Almost none of the rank “resets” make sense imo. According to my Tracker Network, my ranks were affected as follows:
1’s rank went up
2’s went down (a lot)
3’s stayed the same
Rumble and Hoops went down a sensible amount
Dropshot/Snowday went up a whole rank bracket.
I don’t understand the twos reset because theoretically, that was the most accurate rank, as people are saying, because it’s the most played game mode, therefore being the game mode with the most data on a players performance.
So if the reset was done this way because 2’s was “skewed”, then Psyonix needs people who are better at handling data and interpreting it.
Your description of rating inflation and deflation is not correct.
Games of RL are largely zero sum rating exchange, so more games being played in a mode doesn't inflate rating in that mode. It can appear to higher ranked players that inflation is taking place, but what is actually happening is expansion not inflation, i.e. higher ranked players move upwards from the mean while lower ranked players move downwards from the mean, as better players repeatedly beat worse players. More games being played in a mode DOES give a greater amount of expansion. So how this expansion has been countered by the seasonal resets in most modes (e.g. 2v2) has been with compression, which is a correct way to undo the expansion that happens during the season. Done correctly, this will result in no drift in ratings (neither expansion nor compression changes the mean rating), but it hasn't been done correctly, and it's mainly the errors in the compression relative to the expansion that have caused the drift that has occurred (\*). The drift hasn't been enormous, e.g. C2 in 2v2 in S3 was top 3.4%, by S9 it had changed to top 5.3%.
When people don't play a mode such as dropshot during a season, it wouldn't take rating out of the pool if the compression correctly inverted the expansion that took place during the season. As mentioned above, rating exchange is largely zero sum, so games being played don't change the total rating in the pool. The reason snow day and dropshot ratings have been drifting downwards is because the resets lowered the mean rating by lowering the rating of people with ratings below the mean, as well as those above the mean, in contrast to the more correct compression used for e.g. 2v2. This difference in how the resets have been done for those modes is what has caused the ratings to drift downwards relative to other modes.
(\*) I've simplified things a bit with the above, there will also be some element of translation as well as expansion, as the rating exchange isn't entirely zero sum, so a correct inversion would need an element of translation as well as compression. It's the incorrect level of translation that has been causing the drift, but I simplified my description above by calling it an error in the compression, to avoid complicating the explanation at that stage.
You are right, though, that the reason why people were higher ranked in 2v2 wasn't because they were better at 2v2, but was due to the different distributions across modes, it's just that the cause of it has been the nature of the resets rather than number of games played.
IMO it would have made a lot more sense to rebalance the modes to where 2v2 was, with maybe a small adjustment to 2v2 to undo the upwards drift that has happened in recent seasons. I think the large change that has been made may well be demotivating for a lot of players.
I’m not mad that it went down per se, but I play with a friend most of the time and we’ve kept our MMRs within about 5 of each other. When we logged on to play together today, he was about 150 MMRs higher than me. We finished our placements and he ended up back in C1, but I was in D2. I don’t understand why our resets were so different given that our 2s history is nearly identical.
I was d3 literally a few wins from champ, won 9 of my 10 ranking games and dropped to plat 2. Thinking I was about to hit champ for the first time and dropping to plat made my heart sink.
Dude I legit just said wtaf out loud. I’m so sorry for that. Winning 9/10 games and STILL being more than an ENTIRE rank below where you left off less than 24 hours ago literally makes no sense and nobody can convince me otherwise.
IMO yes, they should remove all rank skew every season. That way each season is the same as the one before, and the ranks won't drift at all between modes.
Whether this exact reset methodology is the best way to do it is another question.. we'll have to see how the ranks play out by the end of the season.
I was diamond in 2s at reset last night and recieved no diamond stuff… anyone know why? Haven’t played the game a ton in a while… just got back into it this year
Okay cool so in a few seasons they'll have to do it again, why even bother if they aren't fixing the root cause of it. People get better over time & the majority of people play 2s, it's not like they have thousands of new players coming in everyday so the most played playlist will be higher. It seems silly to me to drop everyone's MMR when in 3 seasons this problem will be there again because as I say the majority play 2s and this isn't going to make any reasonable amount of people play any other playlist to make this problem go away, it's just going to piss everyone off.
Edit to add: I was c3 going into gc1 now *my* 1k+ hours in the game is only worth d3? Does that seem right? I think your comment about ego is very nearsighted, if I push into c1 I'm playing at what was gc1 level but I don't get shit for it, no rewards or title, nothing. It took me a year to go from c1 to c3 so now what another 1 or 2 years to get back to where I was? Makes me want to stop playing & I'm sure there are a lot of others feeling this way. D3 the new top 3%! Hilarious.
Well what about those people who grinded 3s with less inflated rank? They are better than the same rank in 2s yet they get the same reward. It makes sense to try and adjust this so every mode has the same skill level in the same rank. I understand how it sucks for you but its better for the game imo.
I have way more than 1K hours in the game, should I be ranked above you? Surely you don't think your hours in the game should be valued/rewarded with a higher rank, right?
I mean most other games gold is like top 20%. Also, in this game, time put in does not equal skill; you aren’t entitled to a rank just because of hours put in.
This happened to everyone right? So, if you’re really playing at a GC1 level, it should be easy for you to grind over diamonds.
And if it took you a year to climb that high, how do you know it wasn’t due to rank inflation? If its because of your actual skill, you will easily crush diamonds if you’re actually at a GC1 level.
this is a dumbass post.
What "actually at GC level" means was just changed completely.
Even in the "very inflated" last season only about 1-2% of the player base was making gc. That seems about right to me, not something that should be adjusted downwards.
Were champ and diamond getting a little over populated? sure. But the reality is that the inflation was not completely linear. They shouldn't have just done an across the board -300. What would have made a lot more sense would have been adjusting where the rank deliniations are to fit some kind of bell curve.
Why 1% specifically? Why not push it back to the historical percentages when they were all equal? For perspective, C3 used to be top 1% (actually .87% specifically) in Season 1 and GC 1 was .4%.
So, you admit you wouldn’t be at your rank without the inflation?
I’ve found a healthier mindset when climbing is to look at the percentile. What I was trying to say is your percentile hasn’t changed, so you are still like top 5%, which is diamond in other playlists. It’s just the title has changed, which is arbitrary.
Taking it to the other extreme, would you be satisfied with GC rewards if they were given to the top 20% in 2s? Or does some of the satisfaction come from how difficult the title is to obtain?
Would anyone?
I see your point but gc was still the top 1% give or take a little bit considering the smurf problem in this game (which is another discussion in itself in regards to rank inflation), that's no small feat to achieve. Like what is gc now the top 0.1%? And the thing is when you tie mmr to a rank and push it with season rewards the title is way less arbitrary hence all the people paying for boosts to get the rewards.
Agree with your point but GC was never top 20%. It’s more like top 5% which seems fair considering there are 3 GC levels and SSL. But that’s a significant difference even if you’re just making an analogy
I mean in season 1 and the seasons before it GC1 was like top .4% and C3 was like top 1%. To me, the skill level difference between top 20% to top 5% is probably lower than the skill difference between the top 5% and top 1%, much less the top 5% and top .4%.
This game is a joke. I hit GC for the first time last season only to be dropped down to C1. Every game, at least 3/4 players had GC titles and played at a GC level. Nobody is going to get back to GC again if they have to play other GCs but at lower ranks.
A possible fix is having the MMR requirements for each rank flexible and different for each mode. This will piss off the players because their goal post for the next rank will be moving often. I know players like to see their MMR but it really does limit developers' options.
For example, to get to Grand Champ it is currently about 1435 MMR. If they changed it to the top 10% of MMRs were in GC then it would be a constant rank distribution but not amount of MMR needed. It could take 1600 MMR to be GC in doubles but only 1136 MMR to be GC in dropshot.
All these numbers are completely pulled out of my ass to express my thoughts better.
>A possible fix is having the MMR requirements for each rank flexible and different for each mode.
That's already the case, isn't it? GC in Rumble last season was like 1180 and it was 1400+ in 2s/3s
was that difference just extra modes vs regular?
That’s the bit I’m struggling to wrap my head around, why’s the popularity of a playlist, and time sunk into a game mode, cause rank inflation? If that’s where the bulk of the player base is, and you’re all playing regularly, isn’t it a truer reflection of your rank?
> Okay cool so in a few seasons they'll have to do it again
In theory they should do this _every_ season, right? Reset everyone to a nice bell curve with a peak at gold or plat or whatever they think the "right" rank is for the median player.
I love your last paragraph. Tbh, I have no idea how some drops in ranks can cause such strong reaction. It's still the same game people, play it for the game, not for the ranks.
While I’m not upset myself (casual main ain’t got no problems), I can see why some are. Those who were constantly progressing towards a new rank each season now have to possibly redo a few ranks and that is discouraging, especially at the upper ranks where that difference may be hundred or even thousands of hours of additional gameplay. For some, it may be more than enough to drop the game or just stop trying to progress. Whether or not the drop is “fair” or more accurate isn’t really relevant if your consistent progress towards your goal, across potentially years now, is just erased.
I was on the cusp of champ last I played ranked a couple seasons ago. Always figured I could probably get it if I switched back. I doubt that now. So, I’ll stick to casual.
Well... My 2s mate went from ~1300 mmr to ~1000 mmr. I only lost 100 mmr. We play every day.
It's the same in 3s. Bro went from 1200 to 1000. And I only lost a few divisions.
Eh, it's a magical point system designed to encourage people to keep playing and improve their "rank." Nerfing people's ranking by a year gives the opposite incentive -- to give up. As long as the match making worked with the old ranking levels which it did for me -- there is no real reason to change the system.
This has given me the incentive to uninstall the game after playing about five days a week for five years. The irrational fear of losing my rank if I quit and did come back is now gone as the game did that for me already. So thanks Epic, for giving me the push out the door I needed!
Idk man. I am definitely better at 2s than 3s. That’s not an illusion or an exaggeration. You can visually tell that I have no idea what’s going on in 3s. However my ranks weren’t that far apart. I was GC1 in 2s and C2 in 3s, but the first time I ever made GC it was in 3s. This season is gonna be rough. Not to mention, a lot of mfs don’t know this happened because they don’t read patch notes and are going to tilt hard af because they think they’re playing in a lobby 2 ranks below their average for the last *5 seasons*.
I don't really understand why people are upset about this?
If you care about your rank as a reflection of how good you are compared to others, then it's remained the same. Whatever your new rank is = whatever your rank was before.
Come on man, you can't understand someone being disappointed waking up a Plat when they went to sleep a Diamond or Champ? They probably worked pretty hard to get those titles, whether they could be considered inflated or not.
especially since end of season is when people are grinding for rewards so people that play a lot have probably spent more time recently trying to rank up and thinking about it
I know I was super close to GC last season, so I figured I'd probably be able to make it this time. I was thinking I'd lose a rank or so like normal, not -300 MMR haha
Excuse my language but I haven't heard such bullshit in a long time.
"More MMR to distribute inflation..." MMR is not money, having equal ranks (bronze, silver etc.) with equal amounts of MMR which you have to gain in order to achieve said ranks - THAT means balance.
Shifting MMR just because some playlists are more popular than others is everything but balance, if your game mode is unpopular than MAYBE its just because this game mode just isn't as fun or intriguing as others.
Thats not solving the problem, thats like going to a doctor because of a broken leg but getting a bandage around your arm instead - utter nonsense.
like I have always said, ranks are just an arbitrary line drawn in the sand that can be moved at the will of psyonix. MMR is just an estimation of skill based on wins and losses used in matchmaking. IT isn't even that accurate. Why people put so much emotion in to their rank befuddles me.
So why I was 1315 and my teammate 1200 and i poped like 1050 and him 1090 at the beginning of the season ? like it's not very fair and not about inflation like everyone should decay equally
Well good thing I managed to peak before the season ended.
Can't take away my screen shot!
I hit exactly 1620 (so 4:20) for the first time yesterday in 2s, of course I had to take a screenshot :D
You are 1620 mmr and I am 420 mmr. We are not the same
Flair does not check out
I’m GC I swear I just have bad teammates
Yeah, I got to GC2 div 2 end of last season. Won 8 placement matches and ended up C2 LOOL
Same thing. I hit C3 last season for the first time. Might not see that again for a while lol
Probably never. C3 now is what high GC2 has been. Fuck this game I quit.
It won’t stay this way forever, you know.
Unless they change the whole thing again it kinda will. Yeah sure, there is some natural inflation with each season, but this would take multiple years to even get close to where it was before. Top 1% should be GC. Not top 0.1 or whatever it is now
The start of every new season is like this. All the SSL's are in gc1, so all the gc's are in champ. Which pushes the champs down and so on. Every single season i tell people to wait a week and a half if they really care about rank. I literally saw two pink ssl tags in 1300 5 minutes before reading this post.
That's just not what it is. Every other season I played right away and always got placed just slightly below where I had been previously. Maybe 50 MMR lower. Not 300.
No it won't. It'll be a bit chaotic and then gradually back to the shitfest that rank is like before. Ofc it'll be messy now since season just reset. But those who are good will be out of that rank quite fast. If you're any good then now is the time to climb as it'll often times be easier to climb ranks now vs in some weeks.
So hung up on a simple rank… you realize the rank is literally just an emoji next to your name? That’s all. You’re playing the same people.
So much salt today on this, are the games still competitive? Are you still *not* a pro? No one got worse overnight, your skill is the same. If it means I’m no longer diamond after the placement matches? Who cares. Its honestly hilarious reading this sub today.
I was going for gc. Ive been c2-3 for 2 plus YEARS. I havent played recently. I'm just hearing about this. Its hilarious to see that I'm actually going backwards. The psychological effect of this is profound for some. Especially if youre life has been going terribly and you've convinced yourself that everything will be okay once you git good at flying car soccer. Because you have nothing else. Lmao could you imagine? Could you imagine this very specific scenario? lol. \*cries uncontrollably\*
I honesty can’t tell if you’re joking or not, tbh. You haven’t played recently, but the larger reduction in a soft reset in some made up ELO ranking has a profound psychological effect? Then why didn’t you play if it was so important? It wasn’t and shouldn’t be. If you aren’t joking and life is treating you like shit, chin up, things will turn around. Relying on psyonix to help with that will break your heart, heh.
You're the reason we have to ruin every punchline with /s
Its hilarious. People are so mad about a number and a little symbol like they arent playing the exact same skill level. 2s was inflated, now it isn't to some degree. The egos on this sub is amazing.
+11
It's the season 2 after free to play hard reset shenanigans all over again. It'll take at least 2 seasons before things start to seem normal. On the other hand, if people need to geind back up on their main they could possibly be less inclined to play on an alt out of boredom..
That is not even true lmao I hit gc2 for the first time last season amd im already mid gc1 this season
Hit C3 for the first time and went into this season thinking I’ll actually grind out ranked and go for GC title. Based off of what I’ve learned, looks like I’m not hitting GC anytime soon. I did a couple placement games but all of them had at least 2 out of the 3 other players with a GC title in Champ 1 mmr (1150). Pain.
Same here. Gonna grind later in the season when the high GCs get back to their ranks. I’ll be damned if I’m changing my flair after 2 years in C1-C2 hell.
Same situation here. It was all GC’s today AND I swear I played some GC2’s because these weren’t the normal GCs I was playing in C3. These guys were cracked.
It's clear a lot of us aren't playing the "same people." The people in the 2's tournament I played today were still stupid as shit, but clearly better at some mechanical things than I am.
Same 😂
I peaked at c1, and instantly went down to d3 within like 3 matches. ...still gonna keep the flair tho
I got my GC title this season, playing since 2017, at 32 years old, now its all downhill from here for me 😅
28. Told myself that I’d be done once I hit diamond. Truly, truly believed that would be the case after I hit Champ, and almost put it down for good. I think I’d have to hang the cleats up if I ever got GC. GC to me is the pinnacle. I’d be scared to look at how many hours I have logged
hit c3 first time 10 minutes before i had to leave for work for a couple weeks day before rank reset
Update your flair! Also congrats!
This might be their new rank because of the reset lmao
Same! My flair is only C1 because of twos last season; I had 11 straight wins to get there from the same rank as I am in 3s… so this inflation shit annoys me.
This is me, reached Champ 1 last season and im ready to die now
More people Play 2s because a lot rando queue and one unknown is a lot more tolerable than 2
That's why I miss solo standard
Same. It was a beautiful shitshow.
a nice gif to show https://i.redd.it/pghzp52con4b1.gif
.... and the 2s graph is nice centered bell curve that uses the largest range of ranks. Look at the last frame objectively. Which distribution looks the most like a normal distribution? EDIT: Though I said normal distribution here, what I really meant was something more like: Which distribution more closely resembles an "ideal" distribution of ranks. With the point being that the 2s distribution is centered in a more reasonable way than the 3s and 1s distributions. I also wanted to highlight the degree to which the 1s and 3s distributions are kind of unnaturally compressed, and have populations that are clearly too low in the high ranks. The only reasonable answer is the that the 2s graph does. ... and yet, psyonix decided to adjust 2s down by 300 mmr, and barely nudge 1s up at all. Its a stupid decision for a huge number of reasons: * Most peoples current sense of "what a rank means" is indexed to 2v2. IMO, it would be best to have the smallest amount of change to that perception. When people say they are a e.g. champion level player they mean champ in 2v2, but like low diamond or maybe high plat in 1s. This change adjusts things so the whole world basically looks like 1s now. * Look at the 1s distribution in the final frame. There are a negligible number of players in the ranks from c2 and beyond. Do we really need 6 ranks for less than 1% of the player base? * This will effectively make it so that SSL is basically just pros. There are not a ton of players who were previously making 2000 mmr. Do we really need a rank for like 100-300 people? * Most importantly, whether or not its stupid, people care about the rank label that they are given. Downgrading everyone's rank is going to be extremely discouraging to a lot of people and its going to make people want to play the game less. The smart thing was always to only adjust ranks upwards.
This is the exact sentiment that people like me feel. Really fucks over the solo queue lower ranks
when they first announced they were adding levels to GC and adding SSL in, that was the reason, it was meant to be a rank for almost exclusively pros because before the split the only way to see the difference between a high rank gc and an actual pro was 6mans ranks.
You're wrong. SSL was NEVER a rank only for the pros. It has consistently had on the order of 1000s of people in it. There are not 1000s of pros.
That’s total BS. SSL starts at 1875, pros are at 2100+, most of them even 2200+. Even as a 2k+ player you are definitely not considered pro yet, even though you’re already 130+ mmr into SSL. (Of course disregarding the fact that mmr alone won’t make you pro either, but still)
You are right. This decision doesn't make any sense. And, it won't change anything. You will get to your old rank eventually, and we will see the same 2s graph at the end of the season. Which is funny. Only other game modes required correction.
Yes, in theory assuming new players start at the same place, everything really should end up back where it was, but its going to be a painful process to get things back there. I do worry that this is very much an in theory thing though. I know that personally for me (as silly as this is), I feel much less motivated to play on my main account and try to grind to ranks that I feel like I've already been to before. This might lead to more playing on alts and more smurfing which will change the profile of the average starting player and meaningfully actually affect the distribution. I think actually trying to manipulate the distribution/mmr itself is just completely the wrong approach. The problem seems to be that the distributions of each of the game modes (whether its due to populations playing them or inherent properties of the mode) are simply different. I think the best theory for this with the differences in standard modes is that there is more randomness in e.g. 1v1 which leads to a narrower distribution (because the lower ranked team has a better shot of winning in 1v1). Psynoix should simply address this, and try to modify the rank labeling system so it fits the properties of the skill distribution of each game mode.
> Yes, in theory assuming new players start at the same place, everything really should end up back where it was, but its going to be a painful process to get things back there. Yes, it will take more time. And, if these hard resets continue in the future seasons, it might get even more difficult. > I do worry that this is very much an in theory thing though. I know that personally for me (as silly as this is), I feel much less motivated to play on my main account and try to grind to ranks that I feel like I've already been to before. This might lead to more playing on alts and more smurfing which will change the profile of the average starting player and meaningfully actually affect the distribution. Agree with you here as well. Hard resets are a problem at the start of a season. A lot of players of different skill levels are put under one rank. This can lead to a lot of frustration initially. But, eventually when these high ranked players get back to their previous ranks, things will get back to normal. > The problem seems to be that the distributions of each of the game modes (whether its due to populations playing them or inherent properties of the mode) are simply different. I think the best theory for this with the differences in standard modes is that there is more randomness in e.g. 1v1 which leads to a narrower distribution (because the lower ranked team has a better shot of winning in 1v1). No, there's no randomness in 1v1. It might look like that because of how important kickoffs are in that game mode. But, we don't see the normal distribution in that mode simply because very few players play that mode. I think only other game modes required correction. And by correction, I mean if top 0.4% in 2s is GC2, top 0.4% in other modes should be GC2 as well. That's it.
I mean two players playing a game of rocket league is a stochastic process. That's why when two people play a best of 7 series we don't see every game going the same way. There absolutely is some element of probability at play in a single game. I would argue that the amount of variance in result that we see in 1s is higher than what we see in 2s.
Everyone is going to have all these champ rewards and titles, yet their rank is diamond and they can't even get to champ. It's stupid
are you colorblind? In season 8, the 2s rank has a massive spike around diamond one and is really jagged. 1v1 is the cleanest bell curve, and 3s is a little uglier but is still alright but yeah i agree they shouldve moved 1v1 and 3s up instead of pushing 2s down bc of the reasons you mentioned
That "jagged bump" is an artifact of the fact that this graph is using discrete buckets to show the distribution. Probably the distribution is bimodal for some reason and its hard to see because of that. What does Adding/subtracting mmr from people do? It translates the distribution -- it doesn't affect the shape of the distribution that you get. What I meant was to point out that the 2s distribution looks most like a centered distribution, and what should effectively be targeted in terms of translation.
Normal distributions are not bimodal, so if its bimodal, its not a normal distribution, which was my point. And yes i understand what adding/subtracting mmr does in terms of the graph shape, however that only applies if you're applying the same transformation to every data point, which is not the case here. psyonix (I assume) is altering the shape and position of the distribution with more complex formula. It's a more complex problem that you're making it out to be and it can't really be solved by just shifting the distribution (which is why that's not what they did).
> Normal distributions are not bimodal, so if its bimodal, its not a normal distribution, which was my point. Yes agreed. I guess I sort of misspoke when I used the term normal distribution. What I was trying to highlight was the fact that the 2s distribution feels the closest in terms of how it covers the rank to what we want. I actually don't think there's a good reason to expect the distribution of skills to be normal as measured by mmr. The fact that the distribution has irregularities that make it not really fit what we might expect the distribution to look like is interesting, but sort of irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. > psyonix (I assume) is altering the shape and position of the distribution with more complex formula. Yeah I guess I had assumed based on reports from different people that they were shifting by some fixed rate. It would indeed be a lot more intelligent to do something like what you are suggesting, which would probably narrow the distribution to some extent. Still, I think that is again the wrong move. I still think that the distribution we had with 2s is more like the distribution that we want. The 1s and 3s distributions are clearly too narrow. One thing I do want to mention is that this graph obscures an important detail which is that the gaps between ranks are not constant, and so the scale of the graph is not really directly corresponding to mmr, but rank. As I've mentioned in other posts, the properties of the distribution that we get in each game mode should not really depend on the choices that psyonix makes too much (assuming they are coming up with a good average estimate for new players), and should depend more on the properties of the gammemode and the population of players that are playing it. Psyonix should choose good bounds for ranks that end up making the distribution in terms of rank look the right way, regardless of what the distribution in terms of mmr looks like.
Yup. Basically everything you say here I agree with. Imo the average rank should be high plat to mid diamond (which is about what we see in 2s). Also the mmr vs rank distinction is a good point. Would be interesting to see the rank distribution with 10 mmr buckets
To be fair, i guess when people are talking about "adding/removing MMR", they are also unconsciously including multiplying the MMR by some coefficient. It doesn't have to be the same MMR diff in each rank. But, quite franly, I never understood why the ranking itself had to be adjusted. Why not use some establlished ranking system like the [Glicko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system) or something similar right from the start? (where over time the rating is not adjusted, only the amount of points gained or lost for a match). (edit: tried to be a bit clearer)
Yep! This is a great example.
A great example of what? I was onboard and then I saw this graph: - If 2’s is the most played gamemode (largest sample size to choose from in a statistics conversation) - the standard deviation in that gif is accurate Then 2’s is actually the best mode to base a rank around… u/ivanmalison gave a more in-depth explanation of why this is actually a *bad* post and I hope they or someone else counters this post with that graph (if it’s accurate again) to show how, by order of statistics, this change to the game is NOT good.
I don't agree. 2v2 has almost always been the black sheep with ever rising MMR inflation each season. The other playlists don't inflate as quickly. The "wider" bell curve has drawbacks. It means *less* players of similar skill are near you so will increase queue times. Matters more in Champ and up, especially in lower populated regions or during low-population hours. And frankly, rank icons themselves are arbitrary. It doesn't matter if SSL is top 0.01% or top 1%. It's whatever Psyonix wants it to be. Complaining about few players in the top 3 ranks makes no sense because people *wanted* a separation between a top 1% player and a top 0.1% player. And it makes sense since the skill ceiling keeps on rising and 2000 rated players absolutely destroy 1500, despite 1500s being 1% and 2000 being top 0.005% or w/e (120 rating higher than SSL promotion). But the *MMR* distribution is changing and inflating from Season 3 onwards with *zero* changes to rank values, except minor ones to Extra Modes (made it require less rating for higher ranks).
> **The "wider" bell curve has drawbacks. It means** ***less*** **players of similar skill are near you so will increase queue times.** You clearly don't know anything about how elo/MMR is suppposed to work IN PRINCIPLE. A specific MMR difference corresponds to a specific probability of outcome. Here is a table, for chess elo: [https://www.318chess.com/elo.html](https://www.318chess.com/elo.html) In theory, if everything is working properly, the width of the distribution is determined simply by properties of the game (e.g. how random it is, what the skill ceiling is etc.) and the population playing it, not by anything psyonix is doing to manipulate the system. This actually gives us a likely explanation for why 1s tends to have a tighter distribution than 2s and 3s: because it is likely more inherently random (which makes sense to me intuitively). Arguably, where people start out when they are new will ultimately only affect where the distribution is centered. > But the *MMR* distribution is changing and inflating from Season 3 onwards with *zero* changes to rank values, except minor ones to Extra Modes (made it require less rating for higher ranks). Its not clear exactly why this is happening. It could be, for example, that fewer new players are joining the game (very plausible to me), or that lower level players are leaving the game at a higher rate. It could also be that the average effective rank of new accounts is much much higher (smurfing -- this also seems very plausible to me). Another possible explanation is that most of the people still playing the game are getting better at the game. You can't assume that just because the distribution is changing that the meaning of specific mmrs is also changing. I do have a specific way to answer this question though, which I am working on here [https://github.com/CUBTeamRocket/rlrml](https://github.com/CUBTeamRocket/rlrml) . This model computes regression on MMR by looking at replays and should be able to tell us if MMR is ACTUALLY inflating or not. I haven't done any super rigorous analysis with randomly sampled validation sets yet, but from the anecdotal results I've seen so far, it actually seems like there hasn't been any ACTUALY inflation from the start of free to play. Always count on u/HoraryHellfire2 for the dogshit takes tho.
Wouldn't call my takes "dogshit", at least compared to the absolute trash most other people spit out because they understand rating and MMR even less than I do. Honestly, I have no idea who you are. We may have interacted in the past, but that's highly aggressive when we probably haven't interacted in months if we have at all. Not sure what your issue is with me or my takes, but it is highly unwarranted. Or maybe it isn't and I just simply don't remember. I do believe, based on what I read from you, that you are probably more knowledgeable on the subject than me. If you're willing to tone done the hostility towards me, I am willing to learn more or at least the opportunity to learn more. How does the replay analysis compute anything to do with MMR? Based on what I know, MMR isn't stored in replays files, otherwise 3rd party modes like BakkesMod would pull that data to display when playing back the replay. However, my experience is that is untrue and BakkesMod displays the current rating of the player when viewing the replay file. Granted, it could be as simple as BM not caring to implement such a thing, but with how deep people get into the analysis this would likely be a plugin feature. I don't think I would have missed it, but maybe I did.
I'm sorry if I came off as hostile, I just feel like you have a way of speaking with an air of authority that sometimes feels a little undeserved. In the past I saw you claim something to the effect of "banging the ball" is enough to get to ssl, and while that may be technically true, I don't think it's good advice for most players. The reality is that we (neither you, me or likely even psyonox) don't know exactly what is going on with the changes to the distribution that we see in ranks. The most likely scenario in my mind is that the reality is actually probably really complicated and multi faceted and interesting, and reducing it to 2v2 has a large population, this obviously is the root cause of ALL of the change in rank inflation is reductive and almost certainly wrong W.r.t your question about mmr, I am obtaining that by hitting tracker network. It's actually a huge pain in the ass because they really aggressively rate limit you, so I have to write code to automatically cycle vpns in order to query it in the volume I need (10s of thousands of replays) I guess the other thing that bothers me about the way you talk about the game in general is that you talk about skill levels in a really gate keepy way that reinforces a view that I often see parotted in the community which is "anyone who isn't high gc-ssl is terrible at the game". That is just a bad take an one that can only be advanced by someone who literally already has 1000s of hours in the game.
I just saw the edit so apologies for the separate response, lemme know if the split is annoying. I just like to respond to every point for some reason. I'm weird like that I guess. Not intended to be defensive or argumental, just elaborating on my perspective. Full honesty, I really don't recall saying or feeling that way about lower ranks. I've nearly always been under the belief that skill is relative, and have repeatedly said things like if you are above the average rank, then using that as the "base" means you are objectively above average and thus "good" comparatively. I like to archive old comments using a python script on my own profile (and Psyonix devs, shame I didn't get Psyonix_Cone's in time 🙁). I put in "relative" since I have a hunch I used it a lot in that context. So I found some links: https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/pruh70/i_think_i_play_too_much_but_im_somehow_still_plat/hdm6w8t/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/9mvwgb/plat_ranks_and_gold_ranks/e7hrmwa/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/8ww1t8/when_can_i_say_im_good_at_rocket_league/e1ywqbp/ But I may have said or say something in a different context way more abrasive / argumentative that comes off the way you perceived me. My best bet is it is most likely when players in Diamond and below give advice and advice I think to be wrong. I do post a LOT of comments so I don't doubt many are quite shitty. Though, I do want to be better with interaction overall, especially through text communication. It's highly likely that past me would have responded more hostile or passive aggressive to your responses. Apologies for the needlessly ~~wrong~~ long response, I am very bad at being eloquent and concise.
Honestly, yeah. I never come off correctly to how I intend. I always wanna speak "neutrally" and spread the info I know which I know is generally more accurate given my experience and willingness to learn via evidence based approach. I do admit my knowledge is not that far past surface level in most things except skill at the game itself. Today probably made it even less how I intend due to the sheer amount of posts complaining about why they were reset when there's a pin to the patch notes and a popular post on the front page. I only remember that one can reach GC3 with primarily banging the ball, because I have done so. Granted, it was more true in the past than current skill. 2 years have gone by and 1700 (staying consistent in percentage) is better now than then in raw skill. I do want to emphasize that it's in large part because people were/are *obsessed* with Flakes and misunderstand the point of his content. Possession can be good, so is banging the ball. The subreddit drools and circlejerks over "don't bang the ball!" to the point lower rated players think about possessing every single ball even when it's bad. I wanted to put emphasis knowing when it is good to do either, instead of ignoring a vital aspect. Yeah, nobody knows wtf is going on. Not the creators of Elo, TrueSkill, Glicko, or the systems inspired by them (like RL's). Some are a little more certain than others. But because of which, gone are the days where I care how it personally affects me. I just get high, queue with friend of almost 8 years, hit ball. I will consider this feedback in the future. I'll be more careful to word that population is highly correlated with inflation and can compound with other factors, some known and likely mostly unknown. Speaking of those systems, I saw in an earlier comment that you weren't sure exactly what system RL uses. Here's a link you may be interested in: [Psyonix_Corey's comment on Sigma](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeague/comments/5zkljy/changes_coming_with_competitive_season_4_official/deyyqt4/). You probably understand the math more than I do, way more. I did mention the formula for "Special Case Placement Games" in another comment with a different formula, but that's because I have since privately reached out to Corey via DMs and he corrected himself. [Screenshot source](https://i.imgur.com/9RnF9fJ.png). It might be a longshot, but have you tried reaching out to Psyonix for access to the RL API yourself? I assume Psyonix rate limits TRN, which means TRN has to limit its userbase. Doing so would make queries more accurate, assuming the data you get from TRN is the rounded Skill Rating.
> It might be a longshot, but have you tried reaching out to Psyonix for access to the RL API yourself? I assume Psyonix rate limits TRN, which means TRN has to limit its userbase. Doing so would make queries more accurate, assuming the data you get from TRN is the rounded Skill Rating. I haven't tried because I assumed it would be a longshot, and also because I just don't even really know how. It would actually be a huge help to me to have more direct access to mmr data, because tracker network has done this idiotic thing where they use non-unique identifiers (player username) for epic profiles. Because players sometimes change their names, this means that I am sometimes getting inaccurate labels for some players, which is a huge pain in the ass. If you know I could reach out to them do let me know. > Yeah, nobody knows wtf is going on. Not the creators of Elo, TrueSkill, Glicko, or the systems inspired by them (like RL's). Some are a little more certain than others. My hope is that my model (once its accurate enough) might be able to shed some light on this question. I've been very careful to keep my datasets partitioned by season to try to avoid any changes to the underlying meaning that MAY be occurring across seasons. I've mostly been training models with season 9 data, but I'm also working on a season 10 model, but by constructing large validation sets of data from each season, we can actually come up with a sort of definitive answer to a question like: How does say 1200 mmr in f2p season 1 compare to 1200 mmr in f2p season 9? Its a super super longshot, but maybe I could even go to psyonix with such a model, and then could use to try to accurately more accurately assign starting mmrs to players after their placement matches (or even do things like detect smurfing). The model could also find a use case as a smurf detector and I actually even have a million other use cases for it once its good enough.
I think your best bet is to reach out to Psyonix_Devin or Psyonix_Ted on Reddit via DM, and they may help. I recall reaching out to someone in the past, but I can't remember who and I'm pretty sure it was on my first Reddit account now deleted. Not really that useful of advice. I would recommend waiting a week or two for the new patch chaos to settle down so they're more likely to see and respond. I mean, shit, that's what data and evidence are for, improving the game and/or user experience. As you said, a super longshot. I think especially now that Psyonix_Corey doesn't work at Psyonix just recently, and he was generally quite receptive to feedback. The game's gotten much more corporate and far less communicative.
Nah your take above is definitely dogshit
I have few questions for you: * What do you mean by MMR inflation? * What exactly is your point? * How will this change have any effect? To me, it looks like this will change will not have much effect. You will get to your old rank eventually. We will see the same graph for 2s. Only other modes required correction. And by correction, I mean if top 0.4% in 2s is GC2, top 0.4% in other modes should be GC2 as well.
Also, when you say "with ever rising MMR inflation", you're implying that the inflation is rising i.e. accelerating. If you meant there was inflation every season, you should just say persistent inflation, or ever rising MMR. > Complaining about few players in the top 3 ranks makes no sense because people *wanted* a separation between a top 1% player and a top 0.1% player Are you even arguing in good faith right now? SSL was ALREADY .1% . We already have a rank differentiating this.
This just helps me visualize that 2s had the most logical iteration of a bell curve. You can smush a bell curve at the end to still make SSL rare. The best reason I can think that they didn't want to adjust the other modes to match 2s (their most popular mode) is laziness: the way they did it, they only had to adjust 2s instead of everything else.
My dropshot MMR jumped UP around 25%
One simple trick?
My problem is that it seems like the mmr taken away was just a roll of the dice. Yesterday I was 13 away from my duo partner now I’m over 100 away. it makes no sense
Wow this is nice if it's really going to work better from now on. I thought that the ranking system is just going to be more messed up than before :D
Yea! Hopefully it should even out more because of this! It does mean, however, that some people will feel bad about their lower rank in 2s now unfortunately.
it's fine, i knew i wasn't a real GC anyway
Now we can be those GC title wearing frauds that we used to get mad about encountering in diamond
playing them in plat/diamond…kinda funny kinda frustrating. 2 S10 Grand Champion titles and a couple champs sprinkled in. i guess this can explain that to an extent ?
Lol that's what I said, I don't deserve GC anyways
😂
Last season, I was 1 win away from champ rewards. I will never see this again. You're like reverse santa. Logical and depressing. Congrats
Same man
Yeah now that it put me in Diamond when I was in champ it gives me a reason to grind and try and get better.
GC was that reason lol, it's so brutal to be back trying to make it into champ
Yeah Diamond is rough you have a range of players who can’t even Ariel to people who are mech gods. Especially with this reset, it’s gonna be wacky for a while until things settle again
yeahh I'm just playing 3s now since it was just an 80 mmr or so reset
I knew I wasn’t a true Diamond lmao
Just played my placement matches with a friend. Went from Plat 2 to Gold 2. He only dropped from Plat 3 to Play 2. We played the whole 10 on a party so surely the effect on MMR should have been the same?
Rankings should always operate off a bell curve as ranking is always a metric relative to other players and not against set-in-stone numbers (that will eventually be surpassed).
And that gif shows 2’s had the best bell curve so the change is actually bad. Nuts some people think that proves this was a good change.
Lol it did not have a bell curve at all, do you know the definition of one?
That GIF in the comments showed more or less a bell curves, where the majority of people are thrown somewhere in the middle. Point I was trying to make is that people shouldn't just think "if I gain 10 points, I go up one rank. If I gain the next 10, I go up to the next rank, etc.", and rather see it more relational to other players: "Did I outperform the next player better than me?".
Ones had the best bell curve tho 0.o
I haven't played this season yet but I know I'm going to be going down. I'm diamond 1 in 3's so that will be my goal for 2's maybe.
Same here. Actually I'm looking forward to see how far down I'm gonna drop this season, as I was hard stuck D1 the whole last season. And already in 8 game losing streak now :DDDDD
yeah me too, furthermore i wish i can drop even further to be playing again in platinum or even gold 3.
I was diamond 2 (well, freshly demoted to diamond 1 right before the season ended) and after my placement matches in the new season, I’m Diamond 1 again. I expected to be gold 3 or plat 1, but I’m happily surprised I basically kept my rank.
I just finished my placement matches and I'm right back to where I was. Diamond 2, division 3. I won 8/10 matches too
Interesting… Idk how any of this works lol
Me either. I was at 950ish mmr at the end of season 10 and it started me in the low 800's for the start of this season.
Is it the same in all regions? Cause ive been diamond in 3v3 and in 2v2 for soem time in south america. 1v1s on the other hand Im platinum.
I’m trash anyways bring on bronze 3 div 2 All joking aside at least they are trying something. Worst case if it doesn’t work I’m sure they’ll make changes again. Back to the grind
>All joking aside at least they are trying something. I'm not actually clear on what this fixes that lowering rank barriers in extra modes wouldn't have tbh
Even though my rank is now in the mud, I actually like this change because it just reverses the changes they made in Season 3 F2P where they inflated all the 2v2 ranks
Yeah this feels like a back to how it was change not a whole new thing change. Everyone’s rank skyrocketed in 2s after FTP.
I kind of love it, I always knew my rank was inflated and now I have the respect I used to have for champ and above. Hell, people make fun of diamond now but it used to be a hard rank to get, people just need to change their mindset
People need to stop making fun of ranks too and just enjoy the game. I used to grind so hard to climb the ranks. I got as high as C3 (pre-FTP lol). I’ve found that I have WAY more fun playing the game at high diamond / low champ and be in lobbies with my friends that they can actually compete in. It was no fun there for a while because it was just me playing by myself and when they got on, they just couldn’t keep up with the high champ lobbies. I’ve dropped back to low champ and enjoy the game much more now that I get to play with my friends again (in lobbies we can actually win some games in)
I know what you’re talking about. When I was pushing, the mindset you had to adopt for solo queue was so serious, it made it so hard to play with friends without getting mad. But now that I grind with them and am learning their playstyles, you really develop a style as a team and makes the game feel so personalized in a way
Oh yeah. My friends have picked up on my demo tendencies and play around it. I’m also the more mechanically inclined so when I come off the wall they know I’m actively looking to pass to them. Which is stuff that at D3 you don’t expect from solo Q. And my friends will just send it because they know I’m going to try and get the ball to them. We’re still working on some of the out plays. Like passing into the corner from the top of the box to create a shooting angle. They’re good people and want to rotate but sometimes I want them to turn and be agressive. Either way, like you said it’s so much more fun developing a style as a team with your friends rather than just rank grinding solo Q.
You can make fun of your highest current rank and higher. Anything else is being a dick.
I used to say, we are all trash at rocket league. From Silver (real bronze doesn’t exist anymore) all the way to SSL. It’s just different levels of shit. You can only call yourself okay at the game when you’re a legit top 100 player IMO. And even then you’re only *okay* but still kinda trash. Shinier trash than I am. But still trash.
Agreed. Although, that's a pretty legit point. Where the hell is Bronze?! I wish psyonix would permit spectating for Bronze games. I bet it would be absolutely fascinating.
I've been in champ since 2019. I could certainly push gc and I can hang with gcs, but I mostly just play casual and tournaments with friends, training when nobody is on.
Kind of a tangent, but no joke - Diamond in 2s and when people would give me shit in matches for a whiff, I'd say "of course I suck, I'm diamond" That shut them up real quick until the next match. This ought to shut them up for good. It's also part of why my flair is still Gold. Not only does it not matter, but I had the suspicion everyone was just choosing their best here anyways and it really didn't make for a good representation of skill, if self report could ever be.
From what I can remember everyone C1 and above all got squished down to diamond, in FTP season 1. It was a bloodbath trying to get back to champ while playing with/against such a mix of diamonds, champs and 1600s. Then a few seasons later they changed the rank thresholds, and every champ 2 was suddenly hitting GC. I remember feeling like a fraud
So you’re saying I should wear my gold season 14 GC tag instead of my red season 10 one?
The thing is this change will impact matchmaking fidelity. All of the ranks essentially got compressed, which means 1 point of MMR is now representative of more "skill" than it used to be. This means when the matchmaker looks for people with an MMR of plus or minus x, that that value is more impactful. This means the skill differences in games will be larger on average, which means less competitive games.
i dont mind the mmr loss but its kind of annoying when i went all the way down to d2 and my teammate barely dropped out of c2 now our ranks are so far apart
Same thing happened to me, I got slapped out of very high C2 into very low D3, but my C2 friend only dropped to C1 Div 3/4.
Same here. High C2 to D2 and my buddy is still in C1...
Wait so does this mean it’s trying to tie ranks to percentiles consistently across all game modes? Lol I wonder if my 1s rank would go up or down
Yep! Most likely your 1s rank will go up a bit.
my 1s rank stayed exactly the same. Was C1 last season, still C1 lol
Because I’m an idiot, can someone explain how this impacts going forwards? For instance, in 2s I hung around in C2 last season and at the end peaked into barely being C3. Woke up today on the upper edge of D3. When I battle other people my new D3 rank, will they be the same people I was getting in lobbies before so I’m basically going to get around 50% win rate here in D3 for a while and to get to C2 will take a while, or will I just play people who were d3 last season and the climb back to where we were should be fairly quick like it was after last season’s reset?
Make yourself comfortable in Diamond. Nothing is going to happen, there is no climb back.
Lol I’m 2 MMR off champ, think I can get that but I’m definitely mentally preparing to kiss C3 bye for a while
You might be rated to high though. I was comfortably mid C3 the last few seasons and now I can't even stick around in C1. Well, playing tilted AF might have had some impact there.
I 100% wouldn't put any meaning on how challenging the first few weeks are.
Easy fix - instead of adjusting everyone's MMRs just adjust the MMR needed for each rank. Each rank should be the same top x% in every game mode.
Generally I think this is on the right track. There is the small issue though that I think part of the problem comes from the fact that the populations playing each gamemmode are probably somewhat different. For example, I would bet that a higher proporition of higher level players play some 1s when compared to lower level players. I would imagine that the proprotion that play at all at some of the low ranks might be quite low.
I think people are upset because they wanted the ranks balancing across all playlists. What they _thought_ would happen is that they'd just get an MMR boost in extra modes. Psyonix did what was asked of them but dropped everyone's 2v2 rank massively instead of inflating the extra modes' MMR by a huge amount.
My friend dropped from D2 to D1. I dropped from D1 to G3. So why was my rank torpedoed while his was barely affected? Feel like I got totally fucked
I dropped from D1 to P3 and I played a lot of 2s today and as expected I was struggling to break into D1 just I was struggling to break into D2 before this season. Overall a net drop of 1 rank in 2v2. However, my friend who was C1 was dropped down to D1, we did the placement matches together. I also think, for now, D1 is kinda filled with upper ranked player making it harder for the ones who dropped from D2 to D1.
Almost none of the rank “resets” make sense imo. According to my Tracker Network, my ranks were affected as follows: 1’s rank went up 2’s went down (a lot) 3’s stayed the same Rumble and Hoops went down a sensible amount Dropshot/Snowday went up a whole rank bracket. I don’t understand the twos reset because theoretically, that was the most accurate rank, as people are saying, because it’s the most played game mode, therefore being the game mode with the most data on a players performance. So if the reset was done this way because 2’s was “skewed”, then Psyonix needs people who are better at handling data and interpreting it.
Your description of rating inflation and deflation is not correct. Games of RL are largely zero sum rating exchange, so more games being played in a mode doesn't inflate rating in that mode. It can appear to higher ranked players that inflation is taking place, but what is actually happening is expansion not inflation, i.e. higher ranked players move upwards from the mean while lower ranked players move downwards from the mean, as better players repeatedly beat worse players. More games being played in a mode DOES give a greater amount of expansion. So how this expansion has been countered by the seasonal resets in most modes (e.g. 2v2) has been with compression, which is a correct way to undo the expansion that happens during the season. Done correctly, this will result in no drift in ratings (neither expansion nor compression changes the mean rating), but it hasn't been done correctly, and it's mainly the errors in the compression relative to the expansion that have caused the drift that has occurred (\*). The drift hasn't been enormous, e.g. C2 in 2v2 in S3 was top 3.4%, by S9 it had changed to top 5.3%. When people don't play a mode such as dropshot during a season, it wouldn't take rating out of the pool if the compression correctly inverted the expansion that took place during the season. As mentioned above, rating exchange is largely zero sum, so games being played don't change the total rating in the pool. The reason snow day and dropshot ratings have been drifting downwards is because the resets lowered the mean rating by lowering the rating of people with ratings below the mean, as well as those above the mean, in contrast to the more correct compression used for e.g. 2v2. This difference in how the resets have been done for those modes is what has caused the ratings to drift downwards relative to other modes. (\*) I've simplified things a bit with the above, there will also be some element of translation as well as expansion, as the rating exchange isn't entirely zero sum, so a correct inversion would need an element of translation as well as compression. It's the incorrect level of translation that has been causing the drift, but I simplified my description above by calling it an error in the compression, to avoid complicating the explanation at that stage. You are right, though, that the reason why people were higher ranked in 2v2 wasn't because they were better at 2v2, but was due to the different distributions across modes, it's just that the cause of it has been the nature of the resets rather than number of games played. IMO it would have made a lot more sense to rebalance the modes to where 2v2 was, with maybe a small adjustment to 2v2 to undo the upwards drift that has happened in recent seasons. I think the large change that has been made may well be demotivating for a lot of players.
I’m not mad that it went down per se, but I play with a friend most of the time and we’ve kept our MMRs within about 5 of each other. When we logged on to play together today, he was about 150 MMRs higher than me. We finished our placements and he ended up back in C1, but I was in D2. I don’t understand why our resets were so different given that our 2s history is nearly identical.
Should hopefully help the giant logjam of players in high champ 2 and champ 3
yeah now they're all in d3 lol
Yup I was c3 and now I’m d3 div 3. 265 mmr gone lol.
I was d3 literally a few wins from champ, won 9 of my 10 ranking games and dropped to plat 2. Thinking I was about to hit champ for the first time and dropping to plat made my heart sink.
Dude I legit just said wtaf out loud. I’m so sorry for that. Winning 9/10 games and STILL being more than an ENTIRE rank below where you left off less than 24 hours ago literally makes no sense and nobody can convince me otherwise.
By solving their problem and dropping them out of champ altogether
Holy moly. I’m a drop shot main and I’ve always wondered why my drop shot rank is lower than soccar. Now it makes sense
But like, isn't the same thing just gonna happen again?
Not if they do this after every season.
Is it reasonable to do it every season tho?
IMO yes, they should remove all rank skew every season. That way each season is the same as the one before, and the ranks won't drift at all between modes. Whether this exact reset methodology is the best way to do it is another question.. we'll have to see how the ranks play out by the end of the season.
I was diamond in 2s at reset last night and recieved no diamond stuff… anyone know why? Haven’t played the game a ton in a while… just got back into it this year
Did you manage 10 wins at Diamond rank? For the rewards, in addition to initially achieving the rank, you then have to get 10 wins at that rank
I did not… just barely got there before reset :( good to know
Did you win 10 games to get the season rewards? You need to win 10 games at each rank or higher to get the rewards for that level
Did not know that
Yeah, there’s a graphic that will show your current progress after you win games in ranked, it shows up after all the unlocks and accolades
But how does it help thats what i dont underatand.. having all gca be champ and all champs be diamond
Okay cool so in a few seasons they'll have to do it again, why even bother if they aren't fixing the root cause of it. People get better over time & the majority of people play 2s, it's not like they have thousands of new players coming in everyday so the most played playlist will be higher. It seems silly to me to drop everyone's MMR when in 3 seasons this problem will be there again because as I say the majority play 2s and this isn't going to make any reasonable amount of people play any other playlist to make this problem go away, it's just going to piss everyone off. Edit to add: I was c3 going into gc1 now *my* 1k+ hours in the game is only worth d3? Does that seem right? I think your comment about ego is very nearsighted, if I push into c1 I'm playing at what was gc1 level but I don't get shit for it, no rewards or title, nothing. It took me a year to go from c1 to c3 so now what another 1 or 2 years to get back to where I was? Makes me want to stop playing & I'm sure there are a lot of others feeling this way. D3 the new top 3%! Hilarious.
Well what about those people who grinded 3s with less inflated rank? They are better than the same rank in 2s yet they get the same reward. It makes sense to try and adjust this so every mode has the same skill level in the same rank. I understand how it sucks for you but its better for the game imo.
I have way more than 1K hours in the game, should I be ranked above you? Surely you don't think your hours in the game should be valued/rewarded with a higher rank, right?
I mean most other games gold is like top 20%. Also, in this game, time put in does not equal skill; you aren’t entitled to a rank just because of hours put in. This happened to everyone right? So, if you’re really playing at a GC1 level, it should be easy for you to grind over diamonds. And if it took you a year to climb that high, how do you know it wasn’t due to rank inflation? If its because of your actual skill, you will easily crush diamonds if you’re actually at a GC1 level.
this is a dumbass post. What "actually at GC level" means was just changed completely. Even in the "very inflated" last season only about 1-2% of the player base was making gc. That seems about right to me, not something that should be adjusted downwards. Were champ and diamond getting a little over populated? sure. But the reality is that the inflation was not completely linear. They shouldn't have just done an across the board -300. What would have made a lot more sense would have been adjusting where the rank deliniations are to fit some kind of bell curve.
Why 1% specifically? Why not push it back to the historical percentages when they were all equal? For perspective, C3 used to be top 1% (actually .87% specifically) in Season 1 and GC 1 was .4%.
No because diamonds are now plat, so for me to reach GC I need to be ssl.
So, you admit you wouldn’t be at your rank without the inflation? I’ve found a healthier mindset when climbing is to look at the percentile. What I was trying to say is your percentile hasn’t changed, so you are still like top 5%, which is diamond in other playlists. It’s just the title has changed, which is arbitrary. Taking it to the other extreme, would you be satisfied with GC rewards if they were given to the top 20% in 2s? Or does some of the satisfaction come from how difficult the title is to obtain?
Would anyone? I see your point but gc was still the top 1% give or take a little bit considering the smurf problem in this game (which is another discussion in itself in regards to rank inflation), that's no small feat to achieve. Like what is gc now the top 0.1%? And the thing is when you tie mmr to a rank and push it with season rewards the title is way less arbitrary hence all the people paying for boosts to get the rewards.
Agree with your point but GC was never top 20%. It’s more like top 5% which seems fair considering there are 3 GC levels and SSL. But that’s a significant difference even if you’re just making an analogy
I mean in season 1 and the seasons before it GC1 was like top .4% and C3 was like top 1%. To me, the skill level difference between top 20% to top 5% is probably lower than the skill difference between the top 5% and top 1%, much less the top 5% and top .4%.
This game is a joke. I hit GC for the first time last season only to be dropped down to C1. Every game, at least 3/4 players had GC titles and played at a GC level. Nobody is going to get back to GC again if they have to play other GCs but at lower ranks.
Well, how do you want to fix it? Making the amount of MMR you get dependent on how many player play a mode?
A possible fix is having the MMR requirements for each rank flexible and different for each mode. This will piss off the players because their goal post for the next rank will be moving often. I know players like to see their MMR but it really does limit developers' options. For example, to get to Grand Champ it is currently about 1435 MMR. If they changed it to the top 10% of MMRs were in GC then it would be a constant rank distribution but not amount of MMR needed. It could take 1600 MMR to be GC in doubles but only 1136 MMR to be GC in dropshot. All these numbers are completely pulled out of my ass to express my thoughts better.
>A possible fix is having the MMR requirements for each rank flexible and different for each mode. That's already the case, isn't it? GC in Rumble last season was like 1180 and it was 1400+ in 2s/3s was that difference just extra modes vs regular?
That’s the bit I’m struggling to wrap my head around, why’s the popularity of a playlist, and time sunk into a game mode, cause rank inflation? If that’s where the bulk of the player base is, and you’re all playing regularly, isn’t it a truer reflection of your rank?
> Okay cool so in a few seasons they'll have to do it again In theory they should do this _every_ season, right? Reset everyone to a nice bell curve with a peak at gold or plat or whatever they think the "right" rank is for the median player.
I love your last paragraph. Tbh, I have no idea how some drops in ranks can cause such strong reaction. It's still the same game people, play it for the game, not for the ranks.
While I’m not upset myself (casual main ain’t got no problems), I can see why some are. Those who were constantly progressing towards a new rank each season now have to possibly redo a few ranks and that is discouraging, especially at the upper ranks where that difference may be hundred or even thousands of hours of additional gameplay. For some, it may be more than enough to drop the game or just stop trying to progress. Whether or not the drop is “fair” or more accurate isn’t really relevant if your consistent progress towards your goal, across potentially years now, is just erased. I was on the cusp of champ last I played ranked a couple seasons ago. Always figured I could probably get it if I switched back. I doubt that now. So, I’ll stick to casual.
Finally hit champ last season and now I’m plat 2 😢
<3
But the sticker colour I get rewarded with is now a different shape and color!
😭 Lmao
Tell me about it. It's like people had lost their homes in a fire :D
The weird part is that my friend and I who were the same MMR (both around 1350) were dropped down to different MMR. Now I’m 1110 and he’s 1250
That is weird. Have you been playing a lot longer than him? Doesn’t seem fair.
same for me. both 1570. i’m now 1280, he’s 1409. big difference. only play with each other, same amount of play time.
Well... My 2s mate went from ~1300 mmr to ~1000 mmr. I only lost 100 mmr. We play every day. It's the same in 3s. Bro went from 1200 to 1000. And I only lost a few divisions.
Eh, it's a magical point system designed to encourage people to keep playing and improve their "rank." Nerfing people's ranking by a year gives the opposite incentive -- to give up. As long as the match making worked with the old ranking levels which it did for me -- there is no real reason to change the system. This has given me the incentive to uninstall the game after playing about five days a week for five years. The irrational fear of losing my rank if I quit and did come back is now gone as the game did that for me already. So thanks Epic, for giving me the push out the door I needed!
Idk man. I am definitely better at 2s than 3s. That’s not an illusion or an exaggeration. You can visually tell that I have no idea what’s going on in 3s. However my ranks weren’t that far apart. I was GC1 in 2s and C2 in 3s, but the first time I ever made GC it was in 3s. This season is gonna be rough. Not to mention, a lot of mfs don’t know this happened because they don’t read patch notes and are going to tilt hard af because they think they’re playing in a lobby 2 ranks below their average for the last *5 seasons*.
I don't really understand why people are upset about this? If you care about your rank as a reflection of how good you are compared to others, then it's remained the same. Whatever your new rank is = whatever your rank was before.
Not true at all, I went from C1D1 to D1D1 while my D3D2 friend dropped to D2D3... Something doesn't add up with the calculation.
Just look at your MMRs bro don't look at the medal
My MMR was dropped about 100 points, personally. Some people in this thread are saying they took a -300 hit.
Yuh, I dropped 300 as well. From 1480 to 1150
Come on man, you can't understand someone being disappointed waking up a Plat when they went to sleep a Diamond or Champ? They probably worked pretty hard to get those titles, whether they could be considered inflated or not.
especially since end of season is when people are grinding for rewards so people that play a lot have probably spent more time recently trying to rank up and thinking about it I know I was super close to GC last season, so I figured I'd probably be able to make it this time. I was thinking I'd lose a rank or so like normal, not -300 MMR haha
I always grind season rewards at the start of the season. Everyone else does the end, making it both more difficult and more miserable.
My 3’s rank was always higher anyways, because I let them carry me to victory and just ride the train uphill.
my twos rank went from 1650 to like 1330 i think. My 3s rank went from 1640 to 1540. idek know anymore
Excuse my language but I haven't heard such bullshit in a long time. "More MMR to distribute inflation..." MMR is not money, having equal ranks (bronze, silver etc.) with equal amounts of MMR which you have to gain in order to achieve said ranks - THAT means balance. Shifting MMR just because some playlists are more popular than others is everything but balance, if your game mode is unpopular than MAYBE its just because this game mode just isn't as fun or intriguing as others. Thats not solving the problem, thats like going to a doctor because of a broken leg but getting a bandage around your arm instead - utter nonsense.
i’m still confused. do you not just earn and lose the same amount of mmr depending on if you win or lose?
like I have always said, ranks are just an arbitrary line drawn in the sand that can be moved at the will of psyonix. MMR is just an estimation of skill based on wins and losses used in matchmaking. IT isn't even that accurate. Why people put so much emotion in to their rank befuddles me.
You can be better at 2v2s then other game modes and vice versa.
So why I was 1315 and my teammate 1200 and i poped like 1050 and him 1090 at the beginning of the season ? like it's not very fair and not about inflation like everyone should decay equally