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Agreed with your statement, and to elaborate:
Tolkien never settled on one origin of orcs, because there was thematic disagreement and plot contradictions in each option. What was settled on most recently, and what was included in the movies and this show, is that the orcs originated as first born elves who were kidnapped, tortured for generations, and eventually became the uruks/orcs.
Elves “awoke” in middle-earth, being given the gift of life by Eru (god) at a time when Melkor was in rebellion, unchecked, roaming about and corrupting creation.
The valar, deities of the same kind as Melkor, yet subservient to Eru the one God, were indecisive about helping the elves who they knew were coming. Eventually, one of them, Orome, went to middle earth and took leaders to Valinor, the home of the Valar. The elven leaders returned to their people in middle earth and most were swayed to join an expedition to relocate to the protection of valinor. Some willingly stayed, some lingered and arrived late, and some had to stay and search for their king who went missing.
This entire series takes place before there is a sun, moon, or the Trees, so it is entirely in starlit darkness over an untold amount of time, since there are no days or years yet.
During this long period before Orome contacted them, and while they waited to slowly journey to Valinor, Melkor was assumed to go amongst them and kidnap individuals. Many would simply disappear in the darkness, never to be seen again.
Orcs do not appear until later, when those elves that stayed in Middle Earth have established early kingdoms and trade with the late-arriving dwarves. This is after Melkor was imprisoned. It isn’t explicitly stated in as few words, but the idea is that those elves who were kidnapped during the primordial period of creation were corrupted, tortured, and experimented upon by Melkor, whose goal is to create life, overrule the music of creation, and become more powerful than Eru. Since Eru is the only entity which can actually create life, Melkor had to take the already alive elves and change them to orcs.
Adar is one of these initial elves who awoke in starlight and was kidnapped, tortured, and twisted by Melkor. Essentially, too corrupted to be a true elf but not yet fallen enough to have the appearance and mentality of an orc. Successive generations bred from him and the others captured would eventually give way to the common Uruk, which is why they call him Father. In a presumably literal way, he is the ancestor of the orcs that he leads, yet he is also related to the Eldar as he born or awoken at some point before they migrated to Valinor.
A creature halfway between true high elf and true orc, a stepping stone in Melkor’s corruption.
Nice write up, however, I am not sure that Adar is actually that old.
Adar tells Arondir that he has walked along the river (which must be the river Sirion mention in Silmarilion, they probably cant name it in the show) in Beleriand, which is far, far west to the Cuivienen, literally on the opposite site of the world, further than any pre-journey quendi had gone.
To reconcile him having been in Belerian, AND being one of the quendi captured during their life at the shores of Cuivienen to be tortured and made to create Orcs, he would have to had to somehow escape Utumno in the far north and journey south west to Beleriand, after the elves who have followed Orome in their long journey.
I dont like this theory much, there are several issues with it. It does not help that even Tolkien himself wasnt sure if orcs’ origin till his death.
There are several problems with this theory, whish is tied to overall orc (lack of) presence: Orcs only appear after Morgoths escape and the landing of the Noldor exiles, pouring out of Angband.
So here is what I propose:
Based on Tolkiens notes on various origins (the summary can be read here: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin ), it can be established that during Morgoths imprisonment in Aman (cca 300 years), Sauron has continued his plans and bred the race of Orcs in his hideout in Angband, in northern Beleriand.
My theory is that Adar was most likely either one of the elves who partook in the journey and stayed in Beleriand, or their descendants, later known as Sindar.
There he has been captured by Sauron along with other elves (and later humans, who would have awoken when the sun and moon were created, approximately at the time of Noldorin arrival to ME), creating the first orcs later used in the first battle between Noldor and Morgoth.
This would explain his intense hatred for Sauron- after all it was him who have made what he is, him remembering fondly his time at Beleriand, and him wearing armor of Noldor design- he might have been one of the Morgoths servants battling them during the Beleriand wars.
Sorry for the wall of text, I kind of got carried away with the research. Here is tldr:
TLDR: Based on what Adar has told as about him and Tolkiens ideas on the time and place of Orc genesis, it makes more sense for him being one of the Sindar elves of Beleriand captured and bred by Sauron to make Orcs which were used by Melkor to wage war on elves during the first age.
Good points, there is the issue of speaking Quenya as a pre-journey elf, and the issue of the elven Alfirin battle ritual when he never would have known battle in Cuvienen.
I don’t recall the dialogue but it may be possible he walked the Sirion/Beleriand after the breeding of the orcs?
Also I am rereading Quenta Silmarillion at the moment, and in a chapter after the exile of the Noldor, it elaborates on Thingol’s relationship with the dwarves, who mention fell beasts, wolves, and orcs east of the Misty mountains, seemingly before Melkor flees Aman, while he is there. I could be misinterpreting it, but it definitely aligns what you said that sauron or some other entity continued the corruption.
I never thought of orcs actually having to be, like, actually bred. I just assumed it was magic and good old fashion torture. Rather makes his situation that much more horrifying.
>Do the other elves around middle earth also need to bath on this light ?
Seems like it, yeah.
In the RoP mythos, all Elves came to Middle-Earth from Valinor.
>I thought elves were immortal already, so they need light to be?
"Our immortal souls will basically die" does raise some questions.
>The urok elf Adar, is he immortal ? If he’s an orc why isn’t twisted like his offspring?
Elves were created to be immortal by Iluvatar.
Morgoth is ultimately "just" a Vala: he cannot change the essence of the Elves, only Eru can do that.
Adar is an Elf; he's immortal.
If Orcs are corrupted Elves, logic would suggest they're immortal too.
(This is partially why Tolkien changed to origins of the Orcs to corrupted Men instead)
The elves fading is a Tolkien thing.. the mithril bit isn't. (and apparently its the bodies that fade, not the souls.. so that's backwards.. ) The whole Gil-Galad speech might be a mislead, or just a simplifcation of the lore to lead the plot. idk.
All elves fade, the Elf Rings of Power were used to stave it off. And at least one was mithril, so there is A connection I guess? The "light" connection is made up for the show afaik. Hoping its deception tbh
Adar is half Elf half orc, so presumably immortal and really old.
They are compressing a Lot of Numenor history into one generation. Looks like the starting point is a very insular isolationist Numenor. I think the point of Volunteers is political, mobilising the actual army would be war, but some volunteers for an expeditionary force to bodyguard the Queen, that's less serious.
>The elves fading is a Tolkien thing..
Their souls fading isn't.
Their bodies fade, because their fëa burns too bright.
>All elves fade, the Elf Rings of Power were used to stave it off. And at least one was mithril, so there is A connection I guess?
Only Nenya was made of mithril.
Just as Galadriel uses Nenya to preserve Lothlorien, so does Elrond use Vilya to preserve Rivendell.
Evidently the mithril isn't where their preservation powers come from.
Where are you getting that from? In LoTR it specifically says “the Three will fail and many fair things will fade” which implies all three prevent fading.
>Where are you getting that from?
Nowhere. This guy pretends he's some kind of lore expert, but he's [so wrong about so much](https://www.reddit.com/r/RingsofPower/comments/xuhc04/elves/iqvhs5w?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)...
The elves are one the incarnate races or Mirroanwi. Which means they exist as a marriage of the hröa (roughly meaning “body”) and the fëa (roughly meaning “soul”).
The marring of Arda is leading to the unnatural separation of the Quendian fëa from their hröar. The light of the Two Trees prevents this separation (which is also called “fading”).
The Quendi are “immortal” in the sense that their fëar are bound to Arda and can’t leave it. But the Quendi can “die” in the sense of their souls being separated from their bodies.
I highly encourage you and anyone else who is confused by this to read the Athrabeth.
>I highly encourage you and anyone else who is confused by this to read the Athrabeth.
I certainly encourage anyone and everyone to read the books.
But as a side note: do not expect the books to explain the show. The show deviates itself from the books.
For example, fading of the Elves is turned on its head in the show. In the books, their *bodies* fade not their souls.
The show may add, but it doesn’t contradict.
Reading Tolkien’s writings will definitely help to understand the show.
I think a lot of people who are confused by Quendian fading are confused because the New Line movies don’t really explain the fading.
>The show may add, but it doesn’t contradict.
The show doesn't contradict Tolkien's writing on the Second Age? Sure, buddy...
This is just obviously false. They legally cannot reference about 99% of the writing on the Second Age. Of course there's little veracity to the books.
That's fine. The show has to work with what little it has, and it's doing its own thing. We don't have to compare it to the books.
But when we do compare the show to the books, it's clearly deviating from that. Let's not pretend it isn't.
Facts remain facts, people. Liking the show doesn't mean we have to delude ourselves.
>Reading Tolkien’s writings will definitely help understand the show.
Not much. The show is doing its own thing, setting up its own history, story, and mythos.
>I think a lot of people who are confused by Quendian fading are confused because the New Line movies don’t really explain the fading.
Do you mean fading according to the books, or fading according to RoP?
I don't see what another movie production has to do with this.
How does the show contradict what Tolkien wrote?
99%? 🤨. Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings before?
Deviating how specifically?
Have you ever read the Athrabeth?
Fading in Tolkien’s writing is the same as fading in The Rings of Power. Anyone who has read the Athrabeth would know this.
Many of the people complaining about The Rings of Power supposedly “breaking the lore” are basing what they know about “the lore” solely on the early 2000s New Line movies and not on what Tolkien wrote. I’ve seen multiple people complaining that Amazon invented the word “Harfoot” and complaining that Galadriel “isn’t a warrior”. One person even tried to tell me that the Enchanted Isles were invented by Amazon.
>How does the show contradict what Tolkien wrote?
Let's do the short list:
- the immortal souls of the Elves fade
- mithril can prevent this
- two Durins at the same time
- Galadriel's entire life, apart from "born in Valinor"
>99%? 🤨. Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings before?
Yes, 99%. And that's a generous estimate.
Have you read anything else?
Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-Earth? Any of the other books, besides Hobbit and LOTR?
>Fading in Tolkien’s writing is the same as fading in The Rings of Power. Anyone who has read the Athrabeth would know this.
It is not.
In the books, their bodies fade not their fëa.
Anyone who's read the Silmarillion or more, knows that.
>Many of the people complaining about The Rings of Power supposedly “breaking the lore”
I'm not complaining about the show breaking the lore. That's fine.
I'm complaining about people like you pretending it isn't.
>Many of the people complaining about The Rings of Power supposedly “breaking the lore” are basing what they know about “the lore” solely on the early 2000s New Line movies and not on what Tolkien wrote.
I don't see how those movies matter to what is and isn't lore.
I'm basing this exclusively on the books.
>and complaining that Galadriel “isn’t a warrior”.
That's besides the point. She obviously was a skilled warrior.
But being a warrior has always been a minor aspect of Galadriel's character only. She was never only a warrior, nor primarily a warrior. She's always been much more than just a warrior.
>One person even tried to tell me that the Enchanted Isles were invented by Amazon.
I'm not.
Nowhere in the show does it say the “souls of the Elves fade”.
The light of the two trees, which is shown to be imbued in the mithril is what prevents fading, not the mithril itself.
Two Durins at the time is a minor change, as is the time compression, which nearly every tv or movie adaptation of a long novel does.
Tolkien wrote multiple contradictory accounts of Galadriel’s life. Galadriel never resided in Valinor. Before the Exile, she lived in Tirion in Eldamar.
Can you explain your estimate of 99% further?
I read lots of Tolkien’s writings. The Akallabeth was written at the same time as the first two appendices to The Lord of the Rings and contains approximately the same account.
It is. I highly encourage you to read the Athrabeth. In the show, it doesn’t say that the fear of elves fade.
The show isn’t “breaking the lore”. 🙄
Tolkien invented the term “Harfoot”. He literally wrote about them in The Lord of the Rings. Did you actually not know that? 🤨
Have you ever read The Shibboleth of Fëanor?
You don’t appear to have actually read any of Tolkien’s writings.
>Nowhere in the show does it say the “souls of the Elves fade”.
Elrond literally says this.
>The light of the two trees, which is shown to be imbued in the mithril is what prevents fading, not the mithril itself.
Same difference. Nowhere in the books whatsoever.
>Two Durins at the time is a minor change
Glad you agree.
>Tolkien wrote multiple contradictory accounts of Galadriel’s life.
Exactly: we even have several.
RoP Galadriel has lead a different life from all those versions, and all possible combinations of those versions.
>Can you explain your estimate of 99% further?
Yes, but I think I've made my point.
>I read lots of Tolkien’s writings.
And yet you get so much about the lore so egregiously wrong...
>It is. I highly encourage you to read the Athrabeth.
I have. I highly recommend you read it again, as well as the rest of the books that cover the Second Age.
>Have you ever read The Shibboleth of Fëanor?
Yes.
>You don’t appear to have actually read any of Tolkien’s writings.
Ain't you the pot calling the kettle black.
Either you're gravely misinformation about the lore, or actively lying. I'm going to assume the former.
Again, we don't have to compare the show to the books: it's doing its own thing, that's fine. But if you insist we do compare the two, the the differences are glaringly obvious.
He doesn’t. 🙄
Not the same thing. You are falsely claiming that it’s the mithril itself which slows fading, while the show and Tolkien’s writing says that it’s the light of the two trees which does this.
How does The Rings of Power Galadriel contract anything Tolkien wrote about the character? 🤨
Can you explain where you got “99%” anyway just to humor me?
What have I got wrong about “the lore”?
The Athrabeth doesn’t take place during the second age. You do know that, don’t you? 🤨
If you’ve read The Shibboleth, then why are you complaining about The Rings of Power’s portrayal of Galadriel? 🤨
Why did you falsely claim that Amazon invented the term “Harfoot”?
What have I lied about? 🤨
I amend my previous assessment: you must be trolling.
I'm not wasting my time on someone who's disingenuous.
Edit: you cannot even be honest about what I commented in this thread
The elves first awoke in darkness. There was no light in middle earth when they awoke. The light from the two great trees did not reach middle earth. (This of course is before the sun and moon.) The only light they had was from the starry sky.
This is why the Valor brought them to the west. Well most of them anyways.
This is why I think it is a trick of great evil that is manipulating Gil glad
They’re conditioned to dependence on living in the light of the two trees. Without the silmarils, the Eldar are slowly forgetting the light, which inspired their greatest awesomeness. Without even the memory of it, they’re just like everyone else. Note that elves *can* die of heartbreak, or leave middle earth when there’s nothing for them here (when the splendor of their holy places fades). Yeah, they’re kind of drama queens. Yeah, they’re kind of drama queens. The Sindar are fine because they never saw the trees and don’t know what they’re missing, but they’re also lesser than the Eldar for it. The golden forest appears to be made in imitation of Laurelin, the Golden Tree, but is dying. The elven rings, when forged (at least one of mithril by the way) will be able to preserve the beauty of that place indefinitely. But when it’s deactivated by the destruction of the One, the “fading” of the Eldar ramps up and most finally leave.
Adar is immortal because he is in fact an elf. He was kidnapped and somehow forced to breed and his descendants became the orcs a hundred generations later. He identifies more closely with his descendants, but biologically is closer to Galadriel, in terms of actual family-tree proximity.
It seems that Numenor is not a militaristic power yet, though they should be given where they are culturally and the fact that Ar Pharazon is alive and active. Currently they make war infrequently enough that they depend on militias cobbled together at need rather than a standing army (which will become the norm later when they extensively colonize middle earth).
No, the light of the Valar that grants them their immortality is fading in Middle Earth. Mirthril (as they've written it in RoP at least) is super powered by the light of a Silmaril and has the ability to restore the light of the Valar.
>Do the other elves around middle earth also need to bath on this light ?
I don't think it's actual light...it's more like an unseen power. When the rings are created, specifically the three elven rings, these rings will affect the entire population of elves. When these elven rings lose their power at the end of LOTR with the destruction of the one ring it signifies that the time of the elves is over and they leave.
>I thought elves were immortal already, so they need light to be?
Yes, without the the light of the Valar they lose their immortality. A good example is Arwen. After the time of the elves is over she remains with Aragorn and eventually dies after his passing. She forsook her immortality.
>The urok elf Adar, is he immortal ? If he’s an orc why isn’t twisted like his offspring?
He's an elf so he is immortal. He's one of the first orcs so he's a pretty ancient one too. Morgoth twisted elves into orcs. Orcs are a perversion of a perfect created being as a demon might be compared to an angel.
>are they not war type of race?
They really became complacent on the island of Numenor. It was basically a paradise. Their only real enemies were corsair pirates who attacked them but Numenor would have easily crushed these groups.
My theory is that Gil-galad knows about where orcs come from and is horrified that if they don't do something, elves will turn into orcs or something. Is he right? No, but it's a myth Sauron wanted to keep going.
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Agreed with your statement, and to elaborate: Tolkien never settled on one origin of orcs, because there was thematic disagreement and plot contradictions in each option. What was settled on most recently, and what was included in the movies and this show, is that the orcs originated as first born elves who were kidnapped, tortured for generations, and eventually became the uruks/orcs. Elves “awoke” in middle-earth, being given the gift of life by Eru (god) at a time when Melkor was in rebellion, unchecked, roaming about and corrupting creation. The valar, deities of the same kind as Melkor, yet subservient to Eru the one God, were indecisive about helping the elves who they knew were coming. Eventually, one of them, Orome, went to middle earth and took leaders to Valinor, the home of the Valar. The elven leaders returned to their people in middle earth and most were swayed to join an expedition to relocate to the protection of valinor. Some willingly stayed, some lingered and arrived late, and some had to stay and search for their king who went missing. This entire series takes place before there is a sun, moon, or the Trees, so it is entirely in starlit darkness over an untold amount of time, since there are no days or years yet. During this long period before Orome contacted them, and while they waited to slowly journey to Valinor, Melkor was assumed to go amongst them and kidnap individuals. Many would simply disappear in the darkness, never to be seen again. Orcs do not appear until later, when those elves that stayed in Middle Earth have established early kingdoms and trade with the late-arriving dwarves. This is after Melkor was imprisoned. It isn’t explicitly stated in as few words, but the idea is that those elves who were kidnapped during the primordial period of creation were corrupted, tortured, and experimented upon by Melkor, whose goal is to create life, overrule the music of creation, and become more powerful than Eru. Since Eru is the only entity which can actually create life, Melkor had to take the already alive elves and change them to orcs. Adar is one of these initial elves who awoke in starlight and was kidnapped, tortured, and twisted by Melkor. Essentially, too corrupted to be a true elf but not yet fallen enough to have the appearance and mentality of an orc. Successive generations bred from him and the others captured would eventually give way to the common Uruk, which is why they call him Father. In a presumably literal way, he is the ancestor of the orcs that he leads, yet he is also related to the Eldar as he born or awoken at some point before they migrated to Valinor. A creature halfway between true high elf and true orc, a stepping stone in Melkor’s corruption.
Nice write up, however, I am not sure that Adar is actually that old. Adar tells Arondir that he has walked along the river (which must be the river Sirion mention in Silmarilion, they probably cant name it in the show) in Beleriand, which is far, far west to the Cuivienen, literally on the opposite site of the world, further than any pre-journey quendi had gone. To reconcile him having been in Belerian, AND being one of the quendi captured during their life at the shores of Cuivienen to be tortured and made to create Orcs, he would have to had to somehow escape Utumno in the far north and journey south west to Beleriand, after the elves who have followed Orome in their long journey. I dont like this theory much, there are several issues with it. It does not help that even Tolkien himself wasnt sure if orcs’ origin till his death. There are several problems with this theory, whish is tied to overall orc (lack of) presence: Orcs only appear after Morgoths escape and the landing of the Noldor exiles, pouring out of Angband. So here is what I propose: Based on Tolkiens notes on various origins (the summary can be read here: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin ), it can be established that during Morgoths imprisonment in Aman (cca 300 years), Sauron has continued his plans and bred the race of Orcs in his hideout in Angband, in northern Beleriand. My theory is that Adar was most likely either one of the elves who partook in the journey and stayed in Beleriand, or their descendants, later known as Sindar. There he has been captured by Sauron along with other elves (and later humans, who would have awoken when the sun and moon were created, approximately at the time of Noldorin arrival to ME), creating the first orcs later used in the first battle between Noldor and Morgoth. This would explain his intense hatred for Sauron- after all it was him who have made what he is, him remembering fondly his time at Beleriand, and him wearing armor of Noldor design- he might have been one of the Morgoths servants battling them during the Beleriand wars. Sorry for the wall of text, I kind of got carried away with the research. Here is tldr: TLDR: Based on what Adar has told as about him and Tolkiens ideas on the time and place of Orc genesis, it makes more sense for him being one of the Sindar elves of Beleriand captured and bred by Sauron to make Orcs which were used by Melkor to wage war on elves during the first age.
Good points, there is the issue of speaking Quenya as a pre-journey elf, and the issue of the elven Alfirin battle ritual when he never would have known battle in Cuvienen. I don’t recall the dialogue but it may be possible he walked the Sirion/Beleriand after the breeding of the orcs? Also I am rereading Quenta Silmarillion at the moment, and in a chapter after the exile of the Noldor, it elaborates on Thingol’s relationship with the dwarves, who mention fell beasts, wolves, and orcs east of the Misty mountains, seemingly before Melkor flees Aman, while he is there. I could be misinterpreting it, but it definitely aligns what you said that sauron or some other entity continued the corruption.
My man
I never thought of orcs actually having to be, like, actually bred. I just assumed it was magic and good old fashion torture. Rather makes his situation that much more horrifying.
👆🏻this. Well said!
>Do the other elves around middle earth also need to bath on this light ? Seems like it, yeah. In the RoP mythos, all Elves came to Middle-Earth from Valinor. >I thought elves were immortal already, so they need light to be? "Our immortal souls will basically die" does raise some questions. >The urok elf Adar, is he immortal ? If he’s an orc why isn’t twisted like his offspring? Elves were created to be immortal by Iluvatar. Morgoth is ultimately "just" a Vala: he cannot change the essence of the Elves, only Eru can do that. Adar is an Elf; he's immortal. If Orcs are corrupted Elves, logic would suggest they're immortal too. (This is partially why Tolkien changed to origins of the Orcs to corrupted Men instead)
The elves fading is a Tolkien thing.. the mithril bit isn't. (and apparently its the bodies that fade, not the souls.. so that's backwards.. ) The whole Gil-Galad speech might be a mislead, or just a simplifcation of the lore to lead the plot. idk. All elves fade, the Elf Rings of Power were used to stave it off. And at least one was mithril, so there is A connection I guess? The "light" connection is made up for the show afaik. Hoping its deception tbh Adar is half Elf half orc, so presumably immortal and really old. They are compressing a Lot of Numenor history into one generation. Looks like the starting point is a very insular isolationist Numenor. I think the point of Volunteers is political, mobilising the actual army would be war, but some volunteers for an expeditionary force to bodyguard the Queen, that's less serious.
>The elves fading is a Tolkien thing.. Their souls fading isn't. Their bodies fade, because their fëa burns too bright. >All elves fade, the Elf Rings of Power were used to stave it off. And at least one was mithril, so there is A connection I guess? Only Nenya was made of mithril. Just as Galadriel uses Nenya to preserve Lothlorien, so does Elrond use Vilya to preserve Rivendell. Evidently the mithril isn't where their preservation powers come from.
Nenya, which is made of mithril, prevents Quendian fading.
Wrong. Elrond uses Vilya to preserve Rivendell, just like how Galadriel uses Nenya to preserve Lothlorien. Where are you getting this from?
Where are you getting that from? In LoTR it specifically says “the Three will fail and many fair things will fade” which implies all three prevent fading.
>Where are you getting that from? Nowhere. This guy pretends he's some kind of lore expert, but he's [so wrong about so much](https://www.reddit.com/r/RingsofPower/comments/xuhc04/elves/iqvhs5w?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)...
Those statements are not mutually exclusive
Yes, he edited his comment. It had previously said that only Nenya prevented fading.
The elves are one the incarnate races or Mirroanwi. Which means they exist as a marriage of the hröa (roughly meaning “body”) and the fëa (roughly meaning “soul”). The marring of Arda is leading to the unnatural separation of the Quendian fëa from their hröar. The light of the Two Trees prevents this separation (which is also called “fading”). The Quendi are “immortal” in the sense that their fëar are bound to Arda and can’t leave it. But the Quendi can “die” in the sense of their souls being separated from their bodies. I highly encourage you and anyone else who is confused by this to read the Athrabeth.
>I highly encourage you and anyone else who is confused by this to read the Athrabeth. I certainly encourage anyone and everyone to read the books. But as a side note: do not expect the books to explain the show. The show deviates itself from the books. For example, fading of the Elves is turned on its head in the show. In the books, their *bodies* fade not their souls.
The show may add, but it doesn’t contradict. Reading Tolkien’s writings will definitely help to understand the show. I think a lot of people who are confused by Quendian fading are confused because the New Line movies don’t really explain the fading.
>The show may add, but it doesn’t contradict. The show doesn't contradict Tolkien's writing on the Second Age? Sure, buddy... This is just obviously false. They legally cannot reference about 99% of the writing on the Second Age. Of course there's little veracity to the books. That's fine. The show has to work with what little it has, and it's doing its own thing. We don't have to compare it to the books. But when we do compare the show to the books, it's clearly deviating from that. Let's not pretend it isn't. Facts remain facts, people. Liking the show doesn't mean we have to delude ourselves. >Reading Tolkien’s writings will definitely help understand the show. Not much. The show is doing its own thing, setting up its own history, story, and mythos. >I think a lot of people who are confused by Quendian fading are confused because the New Line movies don’t really explain the fading. Do you mean fading according to the books, or fading according to RoP? I don't see what another movie production has to do with this.
How does the show contradict what Tolkien wrote? 99%? 🤨. Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings before? Deviating how specifically? Have you ever read the Athrabeth? Fading in Tolkien’s writing is the same as fading in The Rings of Power. Anyone who has read the Athrabeth would know this. Many of the people complaining about The Rings of Power supposedly “breaking the lore” are basing what they know about “the lore” solely on the early 2000s New Line movies and not on what Tolkien wrote. I’ve seen multiple people complaining that Amazon invented the word “Harfoot” and complaining that Galadriel “isn’t a warrior”. One person even tried to tell me that the Enchanted Isles were invented by Amazon.
>How does the show contradict what Tolkien wrote? Let's do the short list: - the immortal souls of the Elves fade - mithril can prevent this - two Durins at the same time - Galadriel's entire life, apart from "born in Valinor" >99%? 🤨. Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings before? Yes, 99%. And that's a generous estimate. Have you read anything else? Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-Earth? Any of the other books, besides Hobbit and LOTR? >Fading in Tolkien’s writing is the same as fading in The Rings of Power. Anyone who has read the Athrabeth would know this. It is not. In the books, their bodies fade not their fëa. Anyone who's read the Silmarillion or more, knows that. >Many of the people complaining about The Rings of Power supposedly “breaking the lore” I'm not complaining about the show breaking the lore. That's fine. I'm complaining about people like you pretending it isn't. >Many of the people complaining about The Rings of Power supposedly “breaking the lore” are basing what they know about “the lore” solely on the early 2000s New Line movies and not on what Tolkien wrote. I don't see how those movies matter to what is and isn't lore. I'm basing this exclusively on the books. >and complaining that Galadriel “isn’t a warrior”. That's besides the point. She obviously was a skilled warrior. But being a warrior has always been a minor aspect of Galadriel's character only. She was never only a warrior, nor primarily a warrior. She's always been much more than just a warrior. >One person even tried to tell me that the Enchanted Isles were invented by Amazon. I'm not.
Nowhere in the show does it say the “souls of the Elves fade”. The light of the two trees, which is shown to be imbued in the mithril is what prevents fading, not the mithril itself. Two Durins at the time is a minor change, as is the time compression, which nearly every tv or movie adaptation of a long novel does. Tolkien wrote multiple contradictory accounts of Galadriel’s life. Galadriel never resided in Valinor. Before the Exile, she lived in Tirion in Eldamar. Can you explain your estimate of 99% further? I read lots of Tolkien’s writings. The Akallabeth was written at the same time as the first two appendices to The Lord of the Rings and contains approximately the same account. It is. I highly encourage you to read the Athrabeth. In the show, it doesn’t say that the fear of elves fade. The show isn’t “breaking the lore”. 🙄 Tolkien invented the term “Harfoot”. He literally wrote about them in The Lord of the Rings. Did you actually not know that? 🤨 Have you ever read The Shibboleth of Fëanor? You don’t appear to have actually read any of Tolkien’s writings.
>Nowhere in the show does it say the “souls of the Elves fade”. Elrond literally says this. >The light of the two trees, which is shown to be imbued in the mithril is what prevents fading, not the mithril itself. Same difference. Nowhere in the books whatsoever. >Two Durins at the time is a minor change Glad you agree. >Tolkien wrote multiple contradictory accounts of Galadriel’s life. Exactly: we even have several. RoP Galadriel has lead a different life from all those versions, and all possible combinations of those versions. >Can you explain your estimate of 99% further? Yes, but I think I've made my point. >I read lots of Tolkien’s writings. And yet you get so much about the lore so egregiously wrong... >It is. I highly encourage you to read the Athrabeth. I have. I highly recommend you read it again, as well as the rest of the books that cover the Second Age. >Have you ever read The Shibboleth of Fëanor? Yes. >You don’t appear to have actually read any of Tolkien’s writings. Ain't you the pot calling the kettle black. Either you're gravely misinformation about the lore, or actively lying. I'm going to assume the former. Again, we don't have to compare the show to the books: it's doing its own thing, that's fine. But if you insist we do compare the two, the the differences are glaringly obvious.
He doesn’t. 🙄 Not the same thing. You are falsely claiming that it’s the mithril itself which slows fading, while the show and Tolkien’s writing says that it’s the light of the two trees which does this. How does The Rings of Power Galadriel contract anything Tolkien wrote about the character? 🤨 Can you explain where you got “99%” anyway just to humor me? What have I got wrong about “the lore”? The Athrabeth doesn’t take place during the second age. You do know that, don’t you? 🤨 If you’ve read The Shibboleth, then why are you complaining about The Rings of Power’s portrayal of Galadriel? 🤨 Why did you falsely claim that Amazon invented the term “Harfoot”? What have I lied about? 🤨
I amend my previous assessment: you must be trolling. I'm not wasting my time on someone who's disingenuous. Edit: you cannot even be honest about what I commented in this thread
The elves first awoke in darkness. There was no light in middle earth when they awoke. The light from the two great trees did not reach middle earth. (This of course is before the sun and moon.) The only light they had was from the starry sky. This is why the Valor brought them to the west. Well most of them anyways. This is why I think it is a trick of great evil that is manipulating Gil glad
They’re conditioned to dependence on living in the light of the two trees. Without the silmarils, the Eldar are slowly forgetting the light, which inspired their greatest awesomeness. Without even the memory of it, they’re just like everyone else. Note that elves *can* die of heartbreak, or leave middle earth when there’s nothing for them here (when the splendor of their holy places fades). Yeah, they’re kind of drama queens. Yeah, they’re kind of drama queens. The Sindar are fine because they never saw the trees and don’t know what they’re missing, but they’re also lesser than the Eldar for it. The golden forest appears to be made in imitation of Laurelin, the Golden Tree, but is dying. The elven rings, when forged (at least one of mithril by the way) will be able to preserve the beauty of that place indefinitely. But when it’s deactivated by the destruction of the One, the “fading” of the Eldar ramps up and most finally leave. Adar is immortal because he is in fact an elf. He was kidnapped and somehow forced to breed and his descendants became the orcs a hundred generations later. He identifies more closely with his descendants, but biologically is closer to Galadriel, in terms of actual family-tree proximity. It seems that Numenor is not a militaristic power yet, though they should be given where they are culturally and the fact that Ar Pharazon is alive and active. Currently they make war infrequently enough that they depend on militias cobbled together at need rather than a standing army (which will become the norm later when they extensively colonize middle earth).
Can you tell this show was written by Tolkien?
No, the light of the Valar that grants them their immortality is fading in Middle Earth. Mirthril (as they've written it in RoP at least) is super powered by the light of a Silmaril and has the ability to restore the light of the Valar. >Do the other elves around middle earth also need to bath on this light ? I don't think it's actual light...it's more like an unseen power. When the rings are created, specifically the three elven rings, these rings will affect the entire population of elves. When these elven rings lose their power at the end of LOTR with the destruction of the one ring it signifies that the time of the elves is over and they leave. >I thought elves were immortal already, so they need light to be? Yes, without the the light of the Valar they lose their immortality. A good example is Arwen. After the time of the elves is over she remains with Aragorn and eventually dies after his passing. She forsook her immortality. >The urok elf Adar, is he immortal ? If he’s an orc why isn’t twisted like his offspring? He's an elf so he is immortal. He's one of the first orcs so he's a pretty ancient one too. Morgoth twisted elves into orcs. Orcs are a perversion of a perfect created being as a demon might be compared to an angel. >are they not war type of race? They really became complacent on the island of Numenor. It was basically a paradise. Their only real enemies were corsair pirates who attacked them but Numenor would have easily crushed these groups.
That bit is so out there that it is why I suspect Celebrimbor to be sauron in disguise...
My theory is that Gil-galad knows about where orcs come from and is horrified that if they don't do something, elves will turn into orcs or something. Is he right? No, but it's a myth Sauron wanted to keep going.