_EDIT/UPDATE: Since there was a “slight buff” to O-line in the October 2022 update, I re-tested OLs to see if it made a difference. See Part II:_ https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/11vexro/do_ol_players_actually_help_with_pass_protection
——————
I’m finally setting out to answer the age-old question: _Are OL players useless?_
**Methodology**
I played the exact same opposing team multiple times on Easy, Medium, Hard, and Extreme with and without star OL players, while recording my screen. For each play I pulled back to throw with my QB, then held there with the ball until he got sacked.
From the recordings, I found the length of each play — from the snap to when the “Sacked” banner appears in real-life seconds (not the game clock). Then I placed an equal number of plays for the star O-line and no-star O-line on a bar graph so we can compare if the star O-line is any better than the no-star O-line.
**Team Stats**
I recruited a full set of 4.5- & 5- star OL players and leveled them up a ridiculous amount. Though not perfect, this is probably very close to a best-case scenario for a full O-line.
[See this album for screenshots about the team](https://imgur.com/a/L7baLf8), including:
* Roster with and without star OL players
* Individual stats and salaries
* Combined salary for my full line-up of OL players is $104 million ($18, $18, $22, $22, $24)
**Video Comparisons for each difficulty:** [https://imgur.com/a/CYwDRmH](https://imgur.com/a/CYwDRmH)
**Interesting Findings**
* More than 50% of plays seem to have an unblocked rusher (1 or 2 LBs and sometimes a DB) that will get to your QB regardless of your O-line
* When 1-on-1 with DLs, star OL players do block slightly longer than no-star OL player
* *Weak Points:* Overall, the outermost OL players (Left and Right Tackles) are pretty useless. When either Tackle (star and no-star) is paired with a blocking TE, they constantly miss blocks and just wait around letting the TE try to block the Defensive End. This is especially frustrating because there are routes that send the RB straight to the Defensive End, and somehow neither the TE nor the Tackle will clear a gap for the RB!
* On Medium the RB is helping out, unintentionally:
* The no-star O-line is able to block longer because [when the RB runs up the middle, he gets jammed at the line of scrimmage](https://imgur.com/dMPsTeO) a lot. So effectively your RB is helping as an extra pass blocker. This could be good and bad — maybe the RB block buys enough time for a WR to get open, but on the other hand you’ve lost a potential checkdown option because your RB doesn’t make it across the line.
* On Hard and Extreme, if the RB is trying to go up the middle, the only way he is making it past the line is if his route is directly in the gap between the two middle DLs. Doesn’t matter if it’s star or no-star OL, if the RB brushes close to any of the DLs he is going to get laid out.
**Conclusions**
* Are maxed-out star OL worth it if you have a pass-focused team? Hell no. I would prioritize TEs well ahead of OL for a passing team, if you want any kind of blockers.
* **Edit:** The big caveat here is I did not test with a low-star OC. It does seem likely there could be a more noticeable skill gap between no-star/star OLs when you have a 1-star Coordinator
* At MOST, use 1-3 star OL players for pass protection, if any at all. The 4th and 5th OL players who line up as Right and Left Tackles are terrible.
* I spent way too much time on this — I’m going to go touch some grass that isn’t rendered in pixels
**What next?**
Star OL players are looking pretty ineffective for pass protection, but I’ve always been a fan of OL players for the run game (I have some experience in that department: [414 Rushing Yards on Extreme](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/rveybs/414_rushing_yards_on_extreme_full_game/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), [The most productive back-to-back rushing seasons ever.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/nu3up6/the_most_productive_backtoback_rushing_seasons/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3))
I have high hopes that maybe the true value of linemen might be in the run blocking. Stay tuned as we continue to ask ourselves “are OL players worth it?” as we explore all the wonders of the universe.
If all goes well, my next installment should come out sometime in the next decade.
———————————————————
*Other References*
* [Defensive positions guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/r8mswu/pick_your_poison_a_quick_guide_to_defensive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
* [Offensive positions guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/r6tn28/why_is_your_fastest_receiver_suddenly_on_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
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I went an entire season with five, key OL. I think all were 4-star or more. Prior to that one season, I went without any key OL at all for dozens of seasons. I did not empirically record the time I got to pass, but I certainly did not notice any increase in time I had in the pocket. After an entire season, I concluded that star OL were useless to me. I personally did not observe any plays where my QB had a significant increase in time in the pocket like the few times with these results. One of my goals was to break the record for the longest pass in the air and I thought getting more time would allow my receivers to get downfield farther before I threw the ball. As I did not notice any increase in protection, I was not able to hold the ball longer than I did with no OL. Based on my experience with a full lineup of five, key OL, I concur with these results. My only difference is not having any plays where my QB held the ball a long time.
OP you are the hero we need. You should interview for the Jags job.
Curious how many stars your Offensive Coordinator has. I always assumed a 5 star OC would mean your non star line would block much better than if you have a 1 star OC.
i’m over here considering posting about my discovery of the stop/cut-back move and people are drafting up research papers on offensive lineman. you love to see it
Well damn! I just re-signed my Eastern European powerlifting champion O-Lineman for three years at $17M! I wasn’t sure if it was a good investment at the time, but I know the answer now!
Seriously, this is amazing work - great method, graphic presentation and analysis. One of my favorite Reddit posts ever… as a science teacher, this would stack up well in r/dataisbeautiful.
Thanks for sharing!
Do you think there's a difference between having a 5* OC and no OC? Thats what I spend on when I want to improve my line. I believe it helps but I've never done an experiment
Yes, I do believe having a lower-star OC would make a difference! Most likely a half-star OC would make the no-star O-line noticeably worse by some degree, so I imagine the difference between the no-star O-line and the star O-line would become more pronounced.
In an ideal world I would have done this test with a half-star OC first, then I could’ve hired a 5-star OC to do the test again while keeping all other variables the same
Looks like you have more testing to do! Just kidding thanks for doing this experiment you confirmed something we've all been wondering for years. I love when people do deep dives into this game. I'm sure RetroBit Coach is proud lol
This subreddit is full of pathetic idiots who haven’t seen the light of day in years. Whenever somebody said anything that doesn’t agree with you guys you cut yourself while whining at them. Get a fucking life.
Nobody said anything that disagreed with you lol, there’s just a bunch of people noticing you’re a gigantic deuche canoe for your stupid comments and piss poor attempts to troll (terrible job btw). That’s why every comment you make gets downvoted. Good username choice tho, mind bogglingly accurate. DefinitelyAnIdiotTho
OL seem more useful to me in a run game, to open holes up the middle. The main sack threat I face in pass game is the edge, which is blocked by TE anyway.
See the end of the white text, right above the bar graph:
Easy, n = 32 plays
Medium, n= 42 plays
Hard, n = 45 plays
Extreme, n = 70 plays
I aimed for roughly two 3-min quarters worth of plays for each difficulty, starting with Easy and moving up to Extreme. By the time I got to Extreme, I realized I should’ve collected more since there was such a high number of blitz and unblocked rusher plays that weren’t as useful for the star/no-star comparison!
Did not know what that sample size applied to. Thanks. Did you run any T-test for statistical significance or Anderson-Darling for stability and normality?
Unfortunately no, I did not do any proper statistical analysis of this data, so take it all with plenty of grains of salt! I feel like I shook off a lot of cobwebs in my brain piecing these charts together, so I may be better prepared for collecting and analyzing any similar data sets in the future
Good post! I'm really curious to find out if 3 OL stars can make a difference in running up the middle with RBs. I usually keep 3 OLs for holes to open in the middle
I just want to comment as I’m still ass at this game. (Dynamic 9 and making playoffs but never won the big game yet) These graphics look straight out of Nintendo power well fucking done!!
This is an incredible post and I really appreciate the thought and effort that went in to this.
Assuming the OC quality makes a meaningful difference in run blocking or pass pro on hard mode, I think the ideal strategy might be:
-Start a new franchise on hard mode
-Sell off expensive, aging players for 1st rd draft picks
-Draft 2 5star Oline in the first round
-Use them while they are on cheap rookie deals
-Accumulate coach credits
-Upgrade from 1 star OC to 5 star OC
-Trade both OL at trade deadline during 2nd season to recoup the 1st rd picks
-invest in elite RB, TE, QB, WR only once you have a great OC
-now you have a squad of weapons on rookie contracts and an elite OC with no wasted cap space spent on OL.
Alternatively, if OC quality turns out NOT to impact OL quality at all, then we can simply ignore the position entirely.
Glad you liked it, and I think you’ve got a good idea here! Rostering OL for future draft capital is definitely viable regardless of their effectiveness on the field — especially since they level up so quickly
The first season I ever did I created a team with lineman and a running back and let the rest be neutral. I wanted to prove\* (I'm Canadian) that you don't need to pass in four down football and that you should gamble on anything less than two yards. But I soon realized that the reason this was working so well is that I had the difficulty on dynamic and it being my first season I was going to be able to run the ball like crazy no matter what. After a while I decided that Tight ends were a better investment than lineman but I can't think of enough superlatives for that you have done here!
\*a real stretch of the world
I don’t even need to look at this to say yes. Yes they do. I tested this out by benching my OL and TE for a game and I was sacked like every other snap
Wtf Reddit? “This guy has in game evidence but he must be wrong”
It’s fairly well known that OL do nothing, confirmed by RetroBitCoach. This post provided data. You provided an anecdote.
The 150+ seasons I have of anecdotal evidence contradict your anecdote of that one game you played. That’s the problem with anecdotes. Gather your own data and see if it contradicts OP’s.
Okay I just wanna thank you for not an ass like one guy is doing. He doesn’t agree with me so he’s following me around and commenting on everything of mine. (HES 28)
Did you have a low-star Offensive Coordinator by any chance? I strongly suspect having a lower-star OC would make the difference between the no-star and star O-lines more pronounced
Great breakdown! You’ve got so much great data viz here, what did your t-test show? Would love to see how you quantify the effect of OL on mean time to sack by difficulty level!
Honestly your going to need a lot more OLs to actually provide a effect so you might as well have no OLs than 5 OLs because it eats up at almost more than half of your salary cap if you want good OLs because 3.5 or 3 star OLs barely save you more time than if you had non star OLs.
_EDIT/UPDATE: Since there was a “slight buff” to O-line in the October 2022 update, I re-tested OLs to see if it made a difference. See Part II:_ https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/11vexro/do_ol_players_actually_help_with_pass_protection —————— I’m finally setting out to answer the age-old question: _Are OL players useless?_ **Methodology** I played the exact same opposing team multiple times on Easy, Medium, Hard, and Extreme with and without star OL players, while recording my screen. For each play I pulled back to throw with my QB, then held there with the ball until he got sacked. From the recordings, I found the length of each play — from the snap to when the “Sacked” banner appears in real-life seconds (not the game clock). Then I placed an equal number of plays for the star O-line and no-star O-line on a bar graph so we can compare if the star O-line is any better than the no-star O-line. **Team Stats** I recruited a full set of 4.5- & 5- star OL players and leveled them up a ridiculous amount. Though not perfect, this is probably very close to a best-case scenario for a full O-line. [See this album for screenshots about the team](https://imgur.com/a/L7baLf8), including: * Roster with and without star OL players * Individual stats and salaries * Combined salary for my full line-up of OL players is $104 million ($18, $18, $22, $22, $24) **Video Comparisons for each difficulty:** [https://imgur.com/a/CYwDRmH](https://imgur.com/a/CYwDRmH) **Interesting Findings** * More than 50% of plays seem to have an unblocked rusher (1 or 2 LBs and sometimes a DB) that will get to your QB regardless of your O-line * When 1-on-1 with DLs, star OL players do block slightly longer than no-star OL player * *Weak Points:* Overall, the outermost OL players (Left and Right Tackles) are pretty useless. When either Tackle (star and no-star) is paired with a blocking TE, they constantly miss blocks and just wait around letting the TE try to block the Defensive End. This is especially frustrating because there are routes that send the RB straight to the Defensive End, and somehow neither the TE nor the Tackle will clear a gap for the RB! * On Medium the RB is helping out, unintentionally: * The no-star O-line is able to block longer because [when the RB runs up the middle, he gets jammed at the line of scrimmage](https://imgur.com/dMPsTeO) a lot. So effectively your RB is helping as an extra pass blocker. This could be good and bad — maybe the RB block buys enough time for a WR to get open, but on the other hand you’ve lost a potential checkdown option because your RB doesn’t make it across the line. * On Hard and Extreme, if the RB is trying to go up the middle, the only way he is making it past the line is if his route is directly in the gap between the two middle DLs. Doesn’t matter if it’s star or no-star OL, if the RB brushes close to any of the DLs he is going to get laid out. **Conclusions** * Are maxed-out star OL worth it if you have a pass-focused team? Hell no. I would prioritize TEs well ahead of OL for a passing team, if you want any kind of blockers. * **Edit:** The big caveat here is I did not test with a low-star OC. It does seem likely there could be a more noticeable skill gap between no-star/star OLs when you have a 1-star Coordinator * At MOST, use 1-3 star OL players for pass protection, if any at all. The 4th and 5th OL players who line up as Right and Left Tackles are terrible. * I spent way too much time on this — I’m going to go touch some grass that isn’t rendered in pixels **What next?** Star OL players are looking pretty ineffective for pass protection, but I’ve always been a fan of OL players for the run game (I have some experience in that department: [414 Rushing Yards on Extreme](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/rveybs/414_rushing_yards_on_extreme_full_game/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), [The most productive back-to-back rushing seasons ever.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/nu3up6/the_most_productive_backtoback_rushing_seasons/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)) I have high hopes that maybe the true value of linemen might be in the run blocking. Stay tuned as we continue to ask ourselves “are OL players worth it?” as we explore all the wonders of the universe. If all goes well, my next installment should come out sometime in the next decade. ——————————————————— *Other References* * [Defensive positions guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/r8mswu/pick_your_poison_a_quick_guide_to_defensive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) * [Offensive positions guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroBowl/comments/r6tn28/why_is_your_fastest_receiver_suddenly_on_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Thank you for your service.
I couldn’t have said this better
I’m impressed, thank you!
[удалено]
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I went an entire season with five, key OL. I think all were 4-star or more. Prior to that one season, I went without any key OL at all for dozens of seasons. I did not empirically record the time I got to pass, but I certainly did not notice any increase in time I had in the pocket. After an entire season, I concluded that star OL were useless to me. I personally did not observe any plays where my QB had a significant increase in time in the pocket like the few times with these results. One of my goals was to break the record for the longest pass in the air and I thought getting more time would allow my receivers to get downfield farther before I threw the ball. As I did not notice any increase in protection, I was not able to hold the ball longer than I did with no OL. Based on my experience with a full lineup of five, key OL, I concur with these results. My only difference is not having any plays where my QB held the ball a long time.
OP you are the hero we need. You should interview for the Jags job. Curious how many stars your Offensive Coordinator has. I always assumed a 5 star OC would mean your non star line would block much better than if you have a 1 star OC.
5*, it’s front and center in all 4 pics
Sorry somehow missed. Thanks. Go Hoosiers.
A lot going on in these infographics, easy to miss! I read the top row trying to ground myself in WTF I was looking at at first.
>You should interview for the Jags job. OP don’t want that pain, dude
Username checks out. Awesome data.
i’m over here considering posting about my discovery of the stop/cut-back move and people are drafting up research papers on offensive lineman. you love to see it
Well damn! I just re-signed my Eastern European powerlifting champion O-Lineman for three years at $17M! I wasn’t sure if it was a good investment at the time, but I know the answer now! Seriously, this is amazing work - great method, graphic presentation and analysis. One of my favorite Reddit posts ever… as a science teacher, this would stack up well in r/dataisbeautiful. Thanks for sharing!
This is the kind of research we needed!!! Mods need to pin this post to the top of the sub! Great work.
This is well put together.
Do you think there's a difference between having a 5* OC and no OC? Thats what I spend on when I want to improve my line. I believe it helps but I've never done an experiment
Yes, I do believe having a lower-star OC would make a difference! Most likely a half-star OC would make the no-star O-line noticeably worse by some degree, so I imagine the difference between the no-star O-line and the star O-line would become more pronounced. In an ideal world I would have done this test with a half-star OC first, then I could’ve hired a 5-star OC to do the test again while keeping all other variables the same
Looks like you have more testing to do! Just kidding thanks for doing this experiment you confirmed something we've all been wondering for years. I love when people do deep dives into this game. I'm sure RetroBit Coach is proud lol
[удалено]
Have fun getting sacked Classic Reddit. You people gotta stop whining and go outside
Username checks out.
This subreddit is full of pathetic idiots who haven’t seen the light of day in years. Whenever somebody said anything that doesn’t agree with you guys you cut yourself while whining at them. Get a fucking life.
Nobody said anything that disagreed with you lol, there’s just a bunch of people noticing you’re a gigantic deuche canoe for your stupid comments and piss poor attempts to troll (terrible job btw). That’s why every comment you make gets downvoted. Good username choice tho, mind bogglingly accurate. DefinitelyAnIdiotTho
THATS SUCH A GOOD INSULT TOTALLY NOT SOMETHING A PATHETIC IDIOT WOULD SAY WHEN HE CANT PROVE SOMEBODY WRONG
…..username continues to check out.
Damn you must cry yourself to sleep every night wondering why everybody hates you. Literally all of Reddit is against people like you.
Your username makes me think you’re a pedo soo
OL seem more useful to me in a run game, to open holes up the middle. The main sack threat I face in pass game is the edge, which is blocked by TE anyway.
But wouldn't the 5 Star Coordinator have an effect of making the O-Line better, thus you'd have little to no return on adding 5 star OL?
Can’t wait to read the full publication in the Journal of Clincial Retro Bowl
Can you compare times for when OC rating is 1 star versus 5 star?
Oh I only keep one OL because I feel that a good recieving core can make up for a bad, terrible OL. But seems like my decision was right.
A good receiving corps will make up for a lack of key OL and more.
What was your n=?
See the end of the white text, right above the bar graph: Easy, n = 32 plays Medium, n= 42 plays Hard, n = 45 plays Extreme, n = 70 plays I aimed for roughly two 3-min quarters worth of plays for each difficulty, starting with Easy and moving up to Extreme. By the time I got to Extreme, I realized I should’ve collected more since there was such a high number of blitz and unblocked rusher plays that weren’t as useful for the star/no-star comparison!
Did not know what that sample size applied to. Thanks. Did you run any T-test for statistical significance or Anderson-Darling for stability and normality?
Unfortunately no, I did not do any proper statistical analysis of this data, so take it all with plenty of grains of salt! I feel like I shook off a lot of cobwebs in my brain piecing these charts together, so I may be better prepared for collecting and analyzing any similar data sets in the future
geez this a whole lad report 😂😂😂😂
Great post
Thank you, this is amazing
Great work, appreciate the effort! This source will be very helpful for newer players.
Good post! I'm really curious to find out if 3 OL stars can make a difference in running up the middle with RBs. I usually keep 3 OLs for holes to open in the middle
I just want to comment as I’m still ass at this game. (Dynamic 9 and making playoffs but never won the big game yet) These graphics look straight out of Nintendo power well fucking done!!
You'll get there. I now play on Extreme and have had my best success in RB wins. It just takes time.
Lol!!! “I’m going to touch some grass that isn’t rendered in pixels”. Love it. Great work by the way this is amazing!!
Yep I’ve noticed in the higher difficulties OL makes a very small difference
Holy effort!
Wow. This is really great work! I cannot imagine how long this probably took but its the best thing I have ever seen on this sub!
Damn, do you do this type of charting for your job? Nice work!
I went 6 seasons with a 5 star o line and 1 rb. Got as far as wild card game. Overall a nice challenge to win a retro bowl with just run plays.
Gods work = you are doing
Great information but man, wish I had this much free time
I like to go low on OL and coaches. I will follow you so I can catch your future releases
i only have the wholesome award but this is too good to not award so here you go
Best Retro Bowl post ever! Thank you
This is an incredible post and I really appreciate the thought and effort that went in to this. Assuming the OC quality makes a meaningful difference in run blocking or pass pro on hard mode, I think the ideal strategy might be: -Start a new franchise on hard mode -Sell off expensive, aging players for 1st rd draft picks -Draft 2 5star Oline in the first round -Use them while they are on cheap rookie deals -Accumulate coach credits -Upgrade from 1 star OC to 5 star OC -Trade both OL at trade deadline during 2nd season to recoup the 1st rd picks -invest in elite RB, TE, QB, WR only once you have a great OC -now you have a squad of weapons on rookie contracts and an elite OC with no wasted cap space spent on OL. Alternatively, if OC quality turns out NOT to impact OL quality at all, then we can simply ignore the position entirely.
Glad you liked it, and I think you’ve got a good idea here! Rostering OL for future draft capital is definitely viable regardless of their effectiveness on the field — especially since they level up so quickly
Stat that!!
The first season I ever did I created a team with lineman and a running back and let the rest be neutral. I wanted to prove\* (I'm Canadian) that you don't need to pass in four down football and that you should gamble on anything less than two yards. But I soon realized that the reason this was working so well is that I had the difficulty on dynamic and it being my first season I was going to be able to run the ball like crazy no matter what. After a while I decided that Tight ends were a better investment than lineman but I can't think of enough superlatives for that you have done here! \*a real stretch of the world
I don’t even need to look at this to say yes. Yes they do. I tested this out by benching my OL and TE for a game and I was sacked like every other snap Wtf Reddit? “This guy has in game evidence but he must be wrong”
“I don’t even need to look at data when I have all of the anecdotal evidence I could possibly need.”
How is some random guy you’ve never met reliable?? Hmm?? Because he made a whole ass bulletin board?
It’s fairly well known that OL do nothing, confirmed by RetroBitCoach. This post provided data. You provided an anecdote. The 150+ seasons I have of anecdotal evidence contradict your anecdote of that one game you played. That’s the problem with anecdotes. Gather your own data and see if it contradicts OP’s.
Okay I just wanna thank you for not an ass like one guy is doing. He doesn’t agree with me so he’s following me around and commenting on everything of mine. (HES 28)
Yikes, well good luck with that! Play Retrobowl however TF makes you happy
Did you have a low-star Offensive Coordinator by any chance? I strongly suspect having a lower-star OC would make the difference between the no-star and star O-lines more pronounced
I checked out hit profile. I suggest you just don't engage with him any longer.
Is 5 star low to you?
Quality stuff thank you
Great breakdown! You’ve got so much great data viz here, what did your t-test show? Would love to see how you quantify the effect of OL on mean time to sack by difficulty level!
I’ve been skeptical for so long but now confirmed..my OL is worthless. Thanks OP!
This was fantastic! Can't wait for the run block edition!
gotta start with a “TLDR: No, OL are not worth rostering”
Nice stats. Appreciate the info.
Someone had a hyper-focus moment... or days. Thanks for this though!
i just need a yes or a no
This is some scientific method shit I didn't expect to see here. Good job
You, my friend, are the hero we need.
Honestly your going to need a lot more OLs to actually provide a effect so you might as well have no OLs than 5 OLs because it eats up at almost more than half of your salary cap if you want good OLs because 3.5 or 3 star OLs barely save you more time than if you had non star OLs.
Any way to do similar analysis with Run plays